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In today's world, everyone seems to have an opinion on what masculinity should look like. Your mom, the fringe of the far-right, and even billionaire lizard-person Mark Zuckerberg. And yet, the group that is seemingly the most quiet on the issue are progressive men. Chris, Mason and Surafel are seeking to change this narrative, and platform a productive discussion on masculinity in the modern era.
Bro, he's crashing out as we speed. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:No, I'm crashing up. Crashing up. That's what's crazy. I'm falling up the stairs, not down the stairs. Okay, baby?
Speaker 1:Hurts but it's
Speaker 2:progress. We're getting where we need to be.
Speaker 1:This is
Speaker 3:what reading revolutionary suicide does to someone.
Speaker 1:What reading revolutionary suicide does to a motherfucker.
Speaker 2:It jades the shit out of you.
Speaker 3:Oh my god. Golly. Okay. Let's talk about let's talk about Superman. We interrupt this program to bring you No Man Left Behind.
Speaker 3:This is a Doberman Studios production.
Speaker 2:Serafel, can you give us just a since you've seen it three times
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Can you give us a like a little bit of a synopsis or an outline of the movie itself?
Speaker 1:So so yeah. Again, spoiler warning, but I'm a keep it pretty high level. So it's a reboot of the DC cinematic universe. I think they dub it like the DCU, not DC CU or something. But yeah, the DC, yeah, universe.
Speaker 1:And it's a I think it's a really good reimagining. Not reimagining, but, like, going back to kind of, like, the original, like, hopeful inspirational roots of the character.
Speaker 3:It's based on the All Star comics. Right?
Speaker 1:It's based on no. It's not based on the All Star comic. The All Star comics is an entirely separate story line, but but kind of like a lot of, like, Superman's, like, motifs and his personality, some of that is pulled from All Star Superman. Interesting. I don't know if the I don't what I don't know is if the story of this movie comes from a particular comic.
Speaker 1:I think it may just be like some moments are kind of pulled, stuff like that. There's a big plot twist when it comes to like his parents because in this movie, Superman's Kryptonian parents, they they sent him here to basically kind of, like, keep Krypton's genes alive. It's kinda like, you know, some Eugenics, like, coded Really weird. Yeah. It's not I get I actually get and kind of appreciate that they added it, that that James Gunn made that change because it's quite literally they make it so that Superman is not this kind of, like, inexorable ideal.
Speaker 1:The big thing about this movie and what makes it so impactful for people is that it really leverages like humanizing him. Mhmm. And like his origin isn't perfect. Like he as a person is not Right. Perfect.
Speaker 1:But he just seeks to do the best good that he can and that's what the movie really leans on and it's really good.
Speaker 3:I think that makes it actually more meaningful because his parents sent him on like a I wouldn't say not necessarily genocidal, but like on an imperialistic Basic. Mission to conquer Earth.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And, you know, he chose otherwise. Like, once he learned about that, he made a choice to continue being, like, kind, to continue his, like, very Yeah. Human mission.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And I think it makes him more meaningful because it's not like his parents put him up to it. He, like, in spite of what they inevitable or in spite of what they actually told him to do, he chose differently. But I think it makes it
Speaker 1:more important. And it's based off of like, you know, the upbringing of his human parents.
Speaker 2:That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 3:Selfly or
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's incredible that he's he decides to not follow his, I guess his parents directives when he finds out that they want him to effectively like inflict, I guess a little bit of a genocide on earth. But he was raised by human parents too. Yeah. And I think and well, let's get back to like the synopsis
Speaker 1:Yeah. Of So the synopsis. So basically, yeah, the movie the movie opens up with like, you know, him like losing a fight for the first time. Right? And and essentially what goes on is like, Lex Luthor is doing a bunch of stuff behind the scenes to basically give him permission and go ahead to kill Superman on some xenophobic shit.
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And and the entire movie is basically, yeah, Superman kind of like figuring all that out and fighting against it. It's also kind of dealing with the drama and kind of, like, the internal, like, struggles and and and hypothetical repercussions from his actions. Because in the movie, he stops a war between Barabia and Yohanpur, which is basically, like, you know, Israel Palestine. James Gunn visited Palestine is all I'm saying.
Speaker 3:I I wanna James
Speaker 1:Gunn visited Palestine multiple times is all I'm saying. Legally, there's
Speaker 2:no That's good context.
Speaker 1:Legally legally, James Gunn has said on the record that there's no illusion, but, like, come on, bro.
Speaker 2:Because and I won't say that, like, anybody's interpretation is, I guess, incorrect Yeah. Because it's a movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But
Speaker 2:some people are interpreting that, like, fictional geopolitical
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Struggle as reflecting the Ukraine Russia conflict.
Speaker 1:Oh. I haven't seen
Speaker 2:Gaza I haven't
Speaker 3:seen that.
Speaker 2:Israel conflict.
Speaker 3:I've heard that initially it was Russian Ukraine and then they changed it, which would explain why, like, the aggressor is still, like, a, you know, Eastern European one because that was the initial one. Mhmm. And then Yohanpur is, like, obviously not, like, white coated or whatever. I thought it was originally supposed
Speaker 1:to be, because a lot of, like, the the the the what was the name of the first country? I just said it and it's escaping me. Barovia? Barovia. Yeah.
Speaker 1:A lot of the people in Barovia are, like, light skinned and white passing. Slavic. It's the Slavic? Okay. Because it kinda gave me like, I don't know, and like all of the people from Yohanpur were like brown.
Speaker 1:Exactly. That's why that's kinda what gave me like the Israel Palestine energy. I'm not even gonna hold you.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. We may never know.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. But
Speaker 2:but I mean, well then toward the end Yeah. Do you have these soldiers like mobilizing on like Yeah. Yeah. Who Who are fighting back?
Speaker 1:Shoots a kid that's holding up the Superman flag. I am. If not for the Green Lantern and saving I
Speaker 2:respected the life that added detail. Yeah. Because that is what is happening. Mhmm. Like Israeli snipers are like headshotting children over there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And you know, without like a fictitious Green Lantern like shield, you know, protecting a kid from this bullet, it's happening. Mhmm. So I respected that they included that tidbit because that is actively happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's like very real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just generally loved how Gun really leaned into the definitional power of movies. You see so many themes of like how humanity is defined. So many themes of what defines like a true victim versus like someone who doesn't deserve I guess victimhood in this geopolitical like struggle. Where you have like the what was I keep forgetting the name of the countries.
Speaker 1:Which one? The
Speaker 2:the The Israeli. Oh
Speaker 1:yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Have the Baravian like leader trying to like create a narrative where he and his country are the victims. Mhmm. When but when we're put, like, on the ground when there's actual warfare happening, their soldiers are shooting at their
Speaker 1:children. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right? So it just Yeah. It it went to show how narrative can be used as like a definitional ability to define who was victim and who was not. And then Superman's whole journey was like trying to reconcile, I'm an alien who came to this planet with certain, based on certain motivations. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But I'm here now and I was raised as a human. Mhmm. Which one takes primacy?
Speaker 1:It goes deeper than that actually, because with the whole conversation you had with Lois in the beginning, right? Because he is a being with god like powers and he is Yeah. Exercising, like, extra dude judicial, like, powers and force
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:On hypothetically, like, you know, elected He's very naively but isn't naively, though. Kind of like it like, what I liked about and they don't really answer the question to be honest, but I like them entertaining, like, where does the line between, you know, involvement of, like, of, like, Superman involving himself in foreign policy, like, where does that line happen? Because he's solely focused on people are going to die. And that is, like, the big thing that is in
Speaker 2:his And that's what I was
Speaker 1:And then like, but Lois Lane is like, but these are like complex like geopolitical things. Like your actions have implications and they say something.
Speaker 3:I think he is kind of meant to be depicted as a little bit naive in that. Because he's also like new. Like he doesn't, it's weird. He's like a child in some ways, I guess, because he doesn't understand like
Speaker 1:Yeah. He's only a human for three years
Speaker 3:and I would that. So it's kinda like I think we're I think what Gunn was trying to like portray in that was, you know, that kind dynamic between people who are activists and who are like, this is just wrong.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And then people who maybe without realizing or not are still kind of carrying water for things that are pretty indefensible Yeah. Even still. Even if are there complexities which I Kinda like the whole are
Speaker 1:liberal thing, like how much can you debate about something? How much, like, credence can you give over geopolitical sensitivities if, like, people are if kids are being, like, headshotted somewhere. Right? So, like, where they they entertained that a line exists somewhere, but the movie itself did not dictate where that line is. But it was a it was a conversation that I appreciated happened.
Speaker 1:I agree. Yeah.
Speaker 2:No. I I honestly thought that that like quote unquote interview that Lois Lane tried to have with Superman was so instructive of so many different things. I mean, of course, it helped character build. Yeah. In a way that I think made Lois Lane not just like an accessory to Superman, because I mean that is kind of her character.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But she was also like very important to what Superman is. Like Superman, if you take what Superman has to be to its logical conclusion. Mhmm. That Superman is someone who is incredibly empathetic to humanity because he was, of course, raised as one. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:His weakness, of course, it's going to have to be that he is very emotional. Mhmm. His emotions have to be one of his superpowers. Otherwise he's just going to become the kind of alien fascist that his parents wanted him to be. And I love to see how Lois had to step in, kind of like a lot of women have to do.
Speaker 1:Basically, A lot of their own
Speaker 2:invisible labor and say, you really need to think through like the logic that guides your decisions. Because you can't just jump into like a dispute between two sovereign nations. Because you are, you know, ridding humanity of its autonomy. You're making decisions that are harming people as well. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And there's also the financial cost that she would talk about as well. I mean, I thought it was a a really, like, quality, like, maybe five or ten minutes of the movie that gives you so
Speaker 3:much context For the interview period.
Speaker 2:You know, Superman's mind, but then also like how important Lois Lane is Mhmm. To what prevails as the hero of Superman.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think yeah. I think a big complaint it's kind of a stereotype with women in, like, superhero movies, but they're basically what was the term? Angenieux or something like that? They're basically it it's just a fancy word to basically say.
Speaker 1:They're just kind of, like they're they only exist as, a love interest or an accessory to kind of, like, you know, the conventional male protagonist. But I like but a lot and and usually and and what happens a lot of times because, like, the nerd community is still very, like, I don't know, like, patriarchal when it comes to, like, you know, women in that portrayed in, like, you know, their movies. Right? So, like, typically, when a lot of, like, women in media, like, vibe check, like, the male protagonist in a lot of ways, they always get, like, hounded on and kinda, like, hated on. Right?
Speaker 1:But, like, I actually noticed that a lot of it is not happening with Lois in this movie, which is, like, super interesting because she is her own, like, independent character who has her own thoughts and exerts her, like, know, their own thoughts. And it yeah. Sure. It causes, like, a little bit of beef between, you know, her and Superman and, like, some strain in their relationship. But that's, like but they had a very, like, serious, very human conversation.
Speaker 1:Like, there's no type of situation where people there's, like, no excusable situation where people can, like, go, like, I can't see what she's saying or she's acting crazy. Right?
Speaker 3:She also challenges him very substantively. Mhmm. Doesn't just accommodate him.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So like, very well written to the point where, like, people can't even complain about who independent like, strong independent, like, woman character in a movie. I just wanted to point that out. I really that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So Go ahead Chris.
Speaker 2:And just to my earlier point about like, one of the through lines in the movie was Superman or I guess Clark Kent struggling with what should take primacy, his ancestry, being that he was deposited on Earth to decide the fate of Earth, of course. Or a human being with superpowers who's meant to be like a steward of their welfare. You see that in that scene. Where some of his kind of like unconscious, but still nonetheless his connection to the kind of conviction his parents had, of you are going to be the most powerful on earth, thus you should decide the destiny of the planet, was coming out. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like he still had to struggle with that, even though he wasn't aware that that's what his parents wanted him to do on that planet. He still felt in the core, at least in the beginning of that conversation, as if, because he felt as if something was wrong, he had the right to change the course of events with his abilities. Yeah. And so he's kind of, he was struggling with that from the very beginning of like, okay, there's probably a line between doing good things and exerting my interest and value system Mhmm. On a planet that, like, I'm probably the most powerful in.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:So And I loved how Lois Lane kinda helped him unravel Also,
Speaker 1:his dad. The conversation he had with his dad actually got his ass beat was was pretty beautiful.
Speaker 3:Well, let's like let's roll back a little bit to the synopsis then because we're also talking about so we we introed Superman gets his ass beat by the hammer of Barabia.
Speaker 1:Barabia. Yeah. And then the goes to Daily Planet, has that conversation with Lois that we've alluded to.
Speaker 3:Yeah. She's really because I think it was off screen before he gets his ass kicked where it's like he did intervene in the initial attempt from Berevia.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That happened before in the timeline before the movie. The movie opens with him losing a fight to him or Berevia, which who ended up being Ultraman, who has a completely different origin compared to the comics, which is pretty funny.
Speaker 3:So and also financed by a Yeah. Tech a tech billionaire.
Speaker 1:Elon Musk. I mean, Lex Luther.
Speaker 3:A dork loser Mhmm. Billionaire. Yeah. Also bald.
Speaker 1:Not him just throwing like also bald. Like, he's like as one last slur to throw in there.
Speaker 3:He has killing me, bro. So and and at that point then, you know, Lex Luthor is kind of artificially inflaming, like, the Internet Yeah. The hate where the Superman
Speaker 1:The con the Bravia conflict.
Speaker 3:Which I also wanna know, I've made this connection too. I mean, like, that is, like, those sort of, you know in the movie, it's depicted as literally an army of monkeys at keyboards Mhmm. In a pocket dimension. But, you know, we have we have dealt like, I mean, Russian intelligence agencies have been conducting disinformation and misinformation campaigns Mhmm. With an army of, you know, kids on keyboards who will do things like pretend to be Black Lives Matter activists Yeah.
Speaker 3:For example. Yeah. Or also in probably some cases far right activists as well.
Speaker 1:No. They'll just be like straight up like bots or chat GBT instances. Like, it's so funny it'll be like on Twitter or X or whatever.
Speaker 3:In 2016, it was real people. Yeah. Right? And now now we've probably progressed past that point. So, you know, Lex Luthor inflames all this this this hatred towards Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Superman.
Speaker 1:Tries to get the federal government involved. Was it the DOD or something like that? Like the council rep's in book?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like the Pentagon. Some some of the
Speaker 3:other Yeah. Pentagon. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Some people in the Pentagon to basically give him, like, permission to do that. And he successfully does that. He does so many Is
Speaker 3:it only at the first time they say no, but I think after the the the the core downfall in the movie was when, you know, that, like, Superman had been dropped off on Earth.
Speaker 1:They found the original message from his parents. So they uncorrupted it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. In the movie, the the you know, Superman lands on Earth at some point and has a recording from his parents with instructions. But there's a part of that's corrupted. And, you know, after Lex Luthor has been inflaming, you know, Superman's hate online and trying to get the DOD to, like, you know, agree to bring him in and and restrain him in some way, he fails at that first attempt, but then he manages to get access to the Fortress Of Solitude Yeah. And gets the recording and successfully well, his notably very young staff and and engineers, much like Elon Musk, actually successfully save that recording, they find out that it actually was instructions from his parents to, you know, conquer Earth, basically.
Speaker 3:And Suitman was never privy to this. So once Lexuthor releases that to the world, now there's pretext for the government to become involved. I'll let you continue from here. That's where we get to the the core conflict in the movie as far as like Superman in relation to the Earth.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there are other, like, minor plot points that I can hit on, but but basically, what happens is that he gets imprisoned by or the government, yeah, the government basically gives Lex Luthor the go ahead to imprison Superman. They torture both him and execute like just a bystander he interacted with to get information out of
Speaker 2:him. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, some more fight scenes. But the other big plot point is he ends up going back to his parents house to kind of recover from that other fight where he tries to escape from the Pocket Universe prison that he was, you know, captured in. And he has this very charming emotional, like, talk with his parents where he basically opens up to his dad and says, like, I was brought here under false pretenses. I don't know what I am. I don't know what I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 1:And his dad, his human father basically reminds him, like, who you are is defined by your actions and and who you decide to care about, your your intentions and your thought. And I'm and and and even given, like, this instruction from your biological parents and given kind of, like, the temptation of like what god like powers, right? Yeah. Despite all of those temptations, all you wanna do is to be a good citizen of Earth. And he's so proud of him for that.
Speaker 1:I nearly teared up glaring that. I nearly teared up hearing that. I'm like, that's so nice.
Speaker 2:I did too. Yeah. Because I think at a certain level, we all wanna hear that from our father figure. Yeah. We all want our fathers to tell us that the world is our oyster truly.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. After being raised likely in environments where we're told like you need to fill this box to be successful within even a bigger box. Yeah. It was awesome to hear this farm man
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Tell Superman, even you have choice. You're a hero with a lot of obligations and responsibilities, but like you're a good person. And so you can trust that the choices that you make are ultimately gonna be good for you and the people you care about. Yeah. Right, that was beautiful.
Speaker 2:And I was also thinking while you were talking about that part of the movie, if Superman was raised by our fathers Oh. Would Superman turn out to be as awesome?
Speaker 1:Well, actually well, truly nurture over nature, Taisha. It's a it's a great example of that.
Speaker 3:I mean,
Speaker 2:what would Superman be doing if if he was raised by any of our fathers?
Speaker 3:So what I think is important is I do see a little bit of myself in that because, you know, I rejected the initial intentions of my own father. Mhmm. Mhmm. So not to say I'm Superman or anything crazy like that, but I would I would just say that, like, on some level, I kind of get that. The context is obviously different, but Superman theoretically could have chosen, if his values were different, to follow what his parents had told him.
Speaker 3:And he will he definitely had the capability to do so. But he
Speaker 2:He could've, in all that frustration, particularly as, like, surfaced by that conversation with Lois Lane of not being, like, respected for his sense of morality, just decided, wait a second, they're all wrong. I need to do what my parents suggested and guide them to righteousness. Because they really don't understand what to do for themselves. He could have done that after he, you know, heard the the rest of the video, but he didn't, to your point.
Speaker 3:I think as is apropos of a lot of the contour we make, you know, we talk about the masculinity and the undertones of the men Yeah. In things. And so I think the kind of thought that or the through line we just traced in talking about Superman's relationship to, you know, one of his parents versus another Mhmm. Particularly his father or father's. I do wanna point out too the tone of this movie and seeing, like, a man like Superman talking about, like, kindness and empathy in the way Hay did.
Speaker 3:What was the quote? It was, like, kindness is punk rock or something like that. And I'm, like
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're kinda fucking right. It is a little bit punk rock. Like I don't understand. As a funny aside, I saw the movie before Mason did and I'm just like people who are listening probably don't know this, but like Mason's bit is the indomitable human spirit in the types here.
Speaker 1:And and,
Speaker 3:like Faith in people.
Speaker 1:Faith in people. In spite of everything
Speaker 3:and a little bit of optimism on top of that. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, like, as soon as I saw the movie, I'm like, I
Speaker 3:gotta get this man to watch it.
Speaker 2:This is Hope Core. This is Hope version.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Exactly. Jason is on that Hopium pill.
Speaker 3:Which which is crazy because, like, Hope Core coming out of the DC was never something I actually thought. Because I think from what I've seen, a lot of DC movies are dark and brooding and a little bit edgy.
Speaker 1:No. But that's only the the the SnyderVerse ones. The animated ones are, like, very nice and pleasant.
Speaker 2:Which I think largely was a marketing tactic for them to be, like, a foil to the Marvel Cinematic Universe that was, like, more comedic in nature.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of course, like, pre endgame. But, yeah, no, I love the direction they're going now.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. And I just think like I don't know. I feel like it's it's something that especially like a lot of men need. Not necessarily that someone who is super nihilistic or whatever in cell pill would necessarily care for.
Speaker 3:But I feel like with, you know, the apathy that people are experiencing and just the the a lot of the notions of individualism and a lot of the male role models in the manosphere, like, this is a perfect, like you foil to them because it's like, damn, like, maybe we should see someone with the power to cause such destruction actually just demonstrate that kindness and empathy are the best ways to navigate life.
Speaker 1:And restraint.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Restraint. Yeah. Especially, you know, when your bald dork billionaire opponent is willing to murder random people. I think it's good with you and bald.
Speaker 1:It was going
Speaker 3:on here. Listen.
Speaker 2:Do you hate bald people?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I I hate bald billionaires.
Speaker 2:Okay. Word.
Speaker 1:Not a word. Brisk bag, actually. But, yeah, I I I've been seeing online that a lot of people are like, what is it? Superman is like the Barbie movie for me. Chris, you just made a face and you just went, know what?
Speaker 2:Because I'm sad about how true that is.
Speaker 3:As someone who likes the Barbie movie, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like a it's it's it's literally causing it's literally kinda doing the bit of, like, the what we're trying to do. Right? Like, my my catchphrase for this is, like, my objective is, like, we wanna like, my objective for the podcast is that I wanna, like, have conversations that instigate introspection. And I feel like that's kind of what the Superman movie did.
Speaker 1:It gets people to kind of think about or it gets men to think about how they relate and actualize themselves in the world and, like, what they could be doing. You know what I mean? Because, like, we're not we don't have the powers of Superman. But what he but what that movie tries to tell us is that we are all capable of that kind of kindness and ability to change that Superman has. Like, his personality is not unique to him, only his powers are.
Speaker 1:Better. And to and to To choose to do be better, to do good. And so, yeah, I honest to god, I walked away from that movie being, like, dang, I need to lock in, like, on my own Hopium bit. I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm like
Speaker 3:Yo. It's so good to hear that because I've been it's it's crazy because I feel like I'm glad that this medium has promoted that sort of introspection and thought because of when I when I saw that interaction, I was like, I've been having this battle with people, like, about, you know, the hopelessness of people or the futility or the nihilism that, you know, we feel about the world and each other.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And so for Superman to personally be a victim to the worst excesses of humanity
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Brought about by a single person who is a, again, a billionaire. There's literally he has, like, a cup in the scene where Superman bursts through the door to get his fucking dog.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:The the cup says, like, what how the fuck was it? Like, Spacelex or something? It's like
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:It's an allusion, I think, to SpaceX Musk's company, in case there's any doubt. But but Superman saw the worst excesses of humanity personally brought against him by, you know, a wealthy billionaire and also, in contrast, had the world turned against him. And in spite of that, still chose to to place his faith in humanity that once he did the right thing, they would still take him Yeah. We would still take him back, so to speak. You know, he could've sought revenge.
Speaker 3:He could've, you know, took that as a license to do whatever he wants because people are already hateful of him or whatever. Yeah. But he chooses different.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I chooses to turn himself in and just save the dog, but also, like, you know, clear his own name when it comes to Lex. Yeah. And then the ending speech that he gave to Lex at the end of the movie when he finally goes to the thing crazy. You remember the speech?
Speaker 1:It was like I I forget exactly how it goes. He's like, Lex, like, gasses him for being an alien. Right? He's just like, that's where you're wrong. It's like, I, you know, feel emotions.
Speaker 1:I love. I get scared. Right? Like, as an invulnerable being, they really nerfed what Superman is capable of doing. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, in this movie. Like, in the comics and in, like, other, like, TV shows, like, Superman basically can beat the speed of light for some fucking reason. But but in this movie, like, he gets his arm broken. He gets its ass beat, and, like, he gets significantly nerfed. But it basically goes to show that, like, it's it's it's so much easier to do all the things that Superman does if you can, like, literally never feel pain.
Speaker 1:But he feels pain and, basically, he's like, yeah, I get scared. I get hurt. And I fear that I make might make a mistake, but, you know, I still get up every day and try my best.
Speaker 3:Which is like Yeah. What do we want to do if not that? You know what I'm saying? Like, it's
Speaker 1:super But what is the alternative?
Speaker 3:True. Exactly. And so
Speaker 1:What is the alternative?
Speaker 3:If if if in this case, I feel like the I feel like that is especially emblematic of, like, the myth of Sisyphus Mhmm. Pushing the boulder up the mountain. And, yeah, in this particular movie, it's it's Superman pushing the boulder up the mountain. But the the nooks and crannies and the rough portions of the mountain are things that we all deal with every day, whether it's our ability to demonstrate kindness, our ability to, in the face of, you know, overwhelming disagreement, still do the right thing Mhmm. Or even physical harm in some cases.
Speaker 3:Those things, for Superman, cause the the the bullet to fall down the mountain. But they cause it for us too. Yeah. So if anything, I think this movie is great because we can all see a little bit of ourselves, especially men
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:In Superman. But what does he do when he is put in that situation? He does what we all should strive to
Speaker 1:do. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's why I think this a great movie that men need to see.
Speaker 1:He calls out Lex Luthor for being envious, which I really appreciate.
Speaker 3:In spite of everything you have.
Speaker 2:The middle
Speaker 1:of is a billionaire.
Speaker 2:In that speech, I think, or I like to think, after watching the movie, that the reason why Lex was so upset after that speech was less so that like Superman was kind of like standing, you know, with his foot on his neck after like, you know, trouncing him.
Speaker 3:And his dog trouncing him.
Speaker 2:But more so establishing that like Superman was channeling a level of humanity that Lex was incapable of as an actual human being. He's more
Speaker 3:human than you.
Speaker 2:His ambition and his like, you know, focus on like capitalistic accumulation, like make him more of the alien than Superman ever could be. And he was born on a different planet. Yeah. And I wanted to ask like, do we see this dynamic of like nihilism is like something that's conjoined to manhood? You know, like, is that something that is a necessary part of at least like the more predominant like toxic masculinity and maybe why?
Speaker 1:I don't think nihilism is the right word for that, but I get what you're trying to say and yes. I think it's more like
Speaker 2:Just out of curiosity because Superman seemed to reflect the opposite.
Speaker 1:No. You're you're so Yeah. It's like hopefulness. It's it's it's yeah. Empathy, compassion, kindness, like because I feel like the common narrative when it comes to, you know, men is basically like, yeah, like domineering.
Speaker 1:Like, you have to be better than x.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Right? And and and and you are considered a failure if you do not meet this arbitrary threshold of, like, power or capability and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Like
Speaker 2:That's always moving.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's always moving. That's always going up. Like, no one's ever going to match that. Or at least, you are never going to feel like you're in a point where you're ever going to match this arbitrary line, because the line is fake to begin with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's meant to kind of, like, keep you in this depressed rut where you're always seeking, acquiring more, but it's never going to be enough like Lex Luthor, but it's never gonna be enough. So that's what I'm saying. Like, me personally, I don't know that but I get what you're trying to say and I
Speaker 2:totally agree with
Speaker 1:just No. No. But I'm like, what I'm saying is that, like, feeds into like what's going on in in into this. And I do think that's like a commentary because people I think it's it's it's very evident that the movie's tackling that because it's starting to again, like what I said earlier, this is the Barbie movie for men. It's causing a bunch of men to kind of like, you know, rethink how they engage with themselves and consequentially the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And how they think about themselves and their roles and responsibilities as men. And so, yeah, that's that's coming up. What what did you think, Mason?
Speaker 2:A lot
Speaker 3:of the Manosphere red pill stuff is very much like like, the advice they give is, like, effectively, here's how to manipulate women for your own, like, gang or for your own purposes. And then with people like Andrew Tate, it's kind of like you only need consider yourself in all that you do, and consideration for others is is weakness. Mhmm. And so I think at the end of that, the only logical conclusion is like a very depressive nihilism as in things are meaninglessness or things are meaninglessness. Things are meaningless, and what you do in the world doesn't really provide any further meaning from that.
Speaker 3:At least Mhmm. Maybe something can be said of, you know, hedonism or something like that. But I what this movie, I think, does offer counter to that is when you put aside those impulses, which I think a lot of men do end up carrying with them because of the content they consume or the the way we're socialized, you can put those things aside and find, like, real connection and real fulfillment.
Speaker 2:And I think it's it's that for sure, but it's there's a different it's deeper, think a little bit. In the sense that when you are like giving up those things that gratify you immediately. For example, like Superman wanting the immediate gratification of just like ending this geopolitical struggle. You're experiencing a certain amount of suffering, right? Where if you're nihilistic, maybe like Alex Luthor, that suffering has no meaning.
Speaker 2:But when you are like suffering in the sense that you're watching suffering happen, you are developing at least in an awareness that is useful.
Speaker 1:He instigates the the whole conflict. He's not just indifferent to it, he is trying to benefit from it. Right. So yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Versus like Lex needed the immediate gratification of owning a thing. Yeah. Whether it be a people or whether it be like Oh my god.
Speaker 3:Ex utopia type shit
Speaker 2:is crazy. Versus Superman who was guided more so by his ethics, can experience a suffering that has actual meaning to it. And the connection here that I made, because I'm reading outside of Revolutionary Suicide, it's, I'd have to look at the title because I just started It's called Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Nietzsche. And he introduces in this book the concept of the overman or superman.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It also is like a loose translation of like overman in German. Ubermensch. His big push for this book is to identify what constitutes the perfect person. Like what should the perfect person, or the most effective person, maybe is a better term of using it, What should they dedicate their life to? And what should they celebrate and deify?
Speaker 2:And in his concept of the overman, the overman is someone who worships self transformation over everything.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Right? And in the process of us like accomplishing, like becoming more transformed, they are seeing meaning in suffering. Mhmm. Because in order to transform, you must suffer.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:You suffer under the burden of challenge.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I see that in Superman, who gets his name from this kind of concept of Overman Superman. And that his superpower isn't as much of, of course, like literally being able to lift up buildings, as much as it is seeing meaning in his suffering and growing and developing into a better hero from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And and and and kind of what I wanted to throw in there along those lines is that the kind like kind of like the common male idea or is that like men are meant to do things, maybe not necessarily feel things, right? Like feel things but anger but that's a whole other conversation. And so Superman is, you know, like subject to kind of that male archetype of, like, you know, doing, you know, things, like, you know it's, like, very action driven.
Speaker 1:Right? One thing that I think this movie does a really good job of is not just trying to, like, you know, replace conventional, like, ideas of masculinity, right, but also kind of, like, redirect them in a healthier way. Because, yeah, Superman does a lot of, like, actions, but a lot of, like, stereotypical, like, patriarchal, like, actions are meant for like selfish reasons. Right? Like you engage in all these different behaviors, all these different mentalities.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, you know, the Andrew Tate thing. Right? Like you gotta do whatever you do, sacrifice who other other person you gotta sacrifice in order to give you like yourself the most gain. But like, one thing I like about Superman is that he basically kind of takes that mentality of like of like but he takes, like, you know, the mentality of, you know, doing things like actions and stuff like that, like being, like, very action driven.
Speaker 1:Right? But reframes it in kind of a selfless way. So so Superman is very driven by his ability to do, like, charity, ability to, like, you know you know, protect and provide for other people rather than just, like, taking from his environment and doing so. So that's something that I wanted to do. Like, there's two different ways that you can approach this movie.
Speaker 1:One, where, like, Superman is, like, trying to replace the stereotypical, like, male dogma of, like, there's so much more to the to the human male experience than just anger and, like, you know, taking over people, but also being like, if you still have, like, you know, the compulsion to, like, you know, do things, you can reframe it in a way where it's, like, doing service for other people. And that's kind of like what we do is, like, you know, DSA because we have, like, a compulsion for, like, you know, like, we see problems in the world and we want to do something about it. But, like, the way that we do that is to by uplifting our community members. Superman builds a community around him. Like, half of the movie is basically him, like, taking pictures with kids, like, hanging out with people, saving a squirrel.
Speaker 1:Right? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, like, that's kind of something I wanted to, like, throw in there. Like like, there's multiple different ways of getting a healthy perspective of, like, you know, the male experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right? There the male experience is a very loaded thing by itself and that can be dissected later. But, like Yeah. There's other ways to reframe that that is better and healthier for you and everybody else around you.
Speaker 1:And I just kinda wanted to throw that out.
Speaker 3:I love it. Alright, folks.
Speaker 1:He did lip smack, bro. He's like
Speaker 3:So so with that Oh my god. What are we rating, man? Let's do let's do an arbitrary numerical rating out of 10.
Speaker 2:10 out of 10.
Speaker 3:10 out 10.
Speaker 2:I'm giving it a 10 out of 10.
Speaker 3:Is it Modi movie of the year perhaps?
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know. Comic book movies don't typically get stuff like that. But it spoke to me. I don't know what the academy's gonna say. I don't know if, I don't know what like Rotten Tomatoes has given it, but I mean it checked a lot of boxes for me.
Speaker 2:It had the political commentary, it had the comedy, it had the romance. And it was it was realistic. I felt as if like, when I was watching Superman and Lois Lane argue, as if I was watching me and my wife. Honestly, only without the superpowers and the budget.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. Okay.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious.
Speaker 3:Circle, what do you think of it then?
Speaker 1:Oh my god. I do I do I do notice some plot holes and things that I wish they would think about more often. So, like like, for example, Hawkgirl is from Thanagar.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:Green Lantern's ring comes from an alien police force, basically.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Okay.
Speaker 1:So, like, is Superman really the worst one? I don't know. But, like, but but but but eight out of 10 is kind of what I give it for, you know it's a really good movie. I really enjoyed it. I wonder how they're going to address some of those kind of plot points is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Cool. So
Speaker 3:yeah. Alright. I would say I I also think it's an eight out of 10. You know, it did it did love the dog. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I kinda feel like for me Are you
Speaker 1:gonna dress up as Superman?
Speaker 3:My dog will definitely be crypto. And me and Jenna will definitely be Superman Superwoman. So I gotta get I gotta get right for that that spandex. I'm just kidding. Anyways, thank you guys for listening.
Speaker 3:Please like, comment, and subscribe and all that good stuff.