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Conversations about Creating a Culture of Activity: Profiling the people, places, programs, and policies that help to promote a culture of activity within our communities.
Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:24
Jamie Sabbach
No, I would just say, you know, be be a collaborator with your local park and rec department. And if you're not an, you know, an active participant in the services offered or you don't, you know, regularly visit a park or an open space or trail, just recognize the value that those things bring to quality of life in the community.
00:00:21:01 - 00:00:44:19
John Simmerman
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Active Towns Channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Jamie Sabbach from The Firm 110Percent. And Salina, Colorado. And we are going to be talking about, Parks and recreation and fiscal sustainability. Yes, we are mashing those two up very strong towns ask us. But before we dive into this, I just want to say, hey, thank you all so much for tuning in.
00:00:44:19 - 00:01:11:03
John Simmerman
I really do appreciate it. This is going to be the final episode for the year 2025, and, I am incredibly grateful for all of you, tuning in a week after week, year after year for all of these episodes. Again, thank you so very, very much. And if you're noticing the change in the backdrop, that's because I am in my new, house here in, Hawaii and Kailua-Kona.
00:01:11:09 - 00:01:34:15
John Simmerman
So we have a different theme and new look. It's a little bit more tropical in nature and, yeah, super, super excited for 2026 and sharing some new, conversations with you all. And hey, here is a little request for all of you. If you have any recommendations of folks that you would like to hear from on the Active Towns podcast, please drop me a line.
00:01:34:15 - 00:01:52:26
John Simmerman
Let me know, who you think should be here on the podcast, profiled, even if it's a return guest, somebody who you'd like to get an update from. So without further ado, let's get right to it with Jamie.
00:01:52:28 - 00:01:56:03
John Simmerman
Jamie. Welcome to the Active Towns podcast.
00:01:56:05 - 00:01:58:24
Jamie Sabbach
Thank you, thank you. It's good to be here.
00:01:58:26 - 00:02:07:11
John Simmerman
Jamie. I love giving my guests just a really quick opportunity to introduce themselves. So who the heck is Jamie Foxx?
00:02:07:14 - 00:02:48:01
Jamie Sabbach
Well, I, I'm currently, a consultant for public parks and recreation systems across the United States. I came, by way of being a local government employee for over 20 years. I guess to the probably more curious stuff, originally from Chicago, I live in the mountains of Colorado today and feel very privileged to have the opportunity to, work alongside local government professionals, policymakers, community members to help them create, what we refer to as financial sustainability or financially sustainable systems, for their park and rec systems.
00:02:48:01 - 00:03:11:14
Jamie Sabbach
And think about it through the lens of quality of life and public health. It really, I think, tends to resonate a little bit more with folks. But, I've been a long time, consultant, educator, practitioner, and, we again have the privilege of working with folks all across the United States to help them create these kind of enduring, communities.
00:03:11:14 - 00:03:19:01
Jamie Sabbach
By way of their park and rec system. So there's a lot more to the back story, but, I think that probably hits the the high points.
00:03:19:04 - 00:03:40:08
John Simmerman
Love it, love it. That's fantastic. And of course, you and I, we're connected, through a cat by the name of, Ryan Short. So we have to give him a little bit of of of love right up at the top here. Again, huge thanks to to Ryan. He has a brand new book, that's just now come out the civic brand.
00:03:40:08 - 00:04:08:28
John Simmerman
And the two of you are based, interestingly enough, insulator Colorado. So I'm here in, you know, in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii, and I'm dressed in my festive, you know, we're here because it is Tuesday, December 16th, ten days prior to when this episode is going out on, on the, the 26th. And, yeah. So a little bit of the backstory.
00:04:08:28 - 00:04:21:17
John Simmerman
How on earth did you arrive? Insulate Colorado, which is one of the most beloved active towns that I have had the opportunity to visit and profile before?
00:04:21:19 - 00:04:44:23
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. Great question. I'm not sure I even know the full story. I sometimes think about that. But, you know, Chicago Kid ended up in Colorado completely by accident 22 years ago, worked and lived in Boulder, for a number of years. And, my wife and I very simply got an itch to go do something.
00:04:44:25 - 00:05:04:09
Jamie Sabbach
Labor day weekend in 2015 came to the town that we had actually brought the kids to many years ago. We had hiked here. We had rafted here, we had biked here, came for a long weekend, found ourselves coming back with frequency, picking up real estate magazines, and lo and behold, in 2016 we moved, here full time.
00:05:04:11 - 00:05:16:18
Jamie Sabbach
It's a very special, magical place. I feel very fortunate, to live here. And many of the locals refer to it as living in vacation. So it's a pretty, pretty special place.
00:05:16:20 - 00:05:40:04
John Simmerman
And, and I see this a lot here on the channel. You know, Boulder was the quintessential active towns and was the inspiration for me launching the active Towns initiative back in 2012. And, I kept hearing about Salida and people kept saying, oh, you also have to go visit Salida and check it out because it, too is one of those quintessential active towns.
00:05:40:04 - 00:06:04:28
John Simmerman
You just rattled it off. The things that you mentioned were the activities that, you know, people normally participate in. And Ryan and I ended up talking a little bit about this, too, because with the civic brand stuff where his mind is, he's we're constantly talking about, you know, how do you create a culture where this is part of the DNA of the place, a culture of activity, as I like to say.
00:06:05:01 - 00:06:21:04
John Simmerman
I mean, you guys have that in spades. Do you know anything about the history of slider? I mean, was this like an early, part of the culture, the that just sort of, you know, was planted a seed that was planted and then just continued to mature over time.
00:06:21:07 - 00:06:46:23
Jamie Sabbach
You know, it would really be hard for me to, you know, speak to the history. I know very little about it, honestly. The history, my context is really, probably in the last 15, 20 years, again, being a visitor and now being a resident, there's a there's a graciousness to this place. There's a sense of community, which sounds very cliche, but I hear that a lot in my work.
00:06:46:23 - 00:07:06:20
Jamie Sabbach
And, you know, everyone thinks they're unique. And frankly, there are very few, few unique places that I've been to. This place really has something special, you know, a secret sauce, if you will. And I think it's rooted in, the people who come here because they're coming here to be part of a, a community that's different than many.
00:07:06:22 - 00:07:29:09
Jamie Sabbach
And I think, you know, this idea of activity is certainly a part of it. We refer to it as living in the middle of an outdoor playground. But there's a sense of, togetherness. There's a sense of connection. There's a sense of, again, a I will use the word graciousness again. People are very giving.
00:07:29:09 - 00:07:49:22
Jamie Sabbach
They're very considerate. Which is, interesting to think about in today's reality. You know how polarized we've become as a society. The things that we talk about tend to be, you know, they lean more towards the negative rather than the positive. And I think folks here really care. They care deeply for the community in which they've chosen to live, and they care for one another.
00:07:49:24 - 00:08:16:26
Jamie Sabbach
And you can feel it. I posted on LinkedIn recently, a picture of our downtown parade. It's, holiday parade the day after Thanksgiving, and we light up what is a mountain? What we call Christmas mountain, during the holidays. And there's a fireworks display, and the community has 5500 people in it. We live in a county of 20,000 people, and there's easily a couple thousand people that converge on the downtown area.
00:08:16:28 - 00:08:43:00
Jamie Sabbach
And it feels a little bit like Mayberry. I've just dated myself. For those who remember Andy Griffith, it's got that real kind of, incredible small town feel. And it's just hard to pinpoint the exact why. But again, there's a feeling and there's a meaningfulness to being here and being in this place, and it's sometimes just very difficult to describe until you experience it.
00:08:43:06 - 00:08:47:03
Jamie Sabbach
And, again, very fortunate to be here, no doubt about it.
00:08:47:05 - 00:09:08:17
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. One of the things that comes to mind when you were just talking a little bit about that was, you know, understanding the, the, the history in the context of the place. You just shared a few things about the context. You're a smaller mountain town. It's not, you know, in even Boulder as a college town. I mean, it's not a particularly big place.
00:09:08:17 - 00:09:38:11
John Simmerman
I mean, 100,000, you know, people right around that, that area. And so what I really like to, you know, emphasize on the Active Towns channel is a lot of the things that we end up talking about sometimes give to a de facto considered massive city related things, massive urban related things. But these concepts of creating places that encourage healthy, active living can happen in small rural environments and rural towns.
00:09:38:13 - 00:10:20:08
John Simmerman
Midsize cities, as well as big cities. I mean, access to parks, access to nature, access to, you know, you know, trails and pathways and safer low speed streets. These are things that can happen regardless of the size of the municipality that you have. The other thing that that I was reminded of is you were just talking about that was some of the research that I did in Boulder about sort of, well, how did Boulder become like this place where people gravitated to because you just mentioned that, you know, people like, go out of their way to move to a place that, you know, kind of supports the lifestyle that they have or would
00:10:20:08 - 00:11:05:16
John Simmerman
like to have. And, it was a fascinating to read about. Sunita's. And the original, hospital up on, on, on Mapleton there and, and the sanatorium and how they accessed and utilized the, the beautiful trail system and the open space network of which is now open space network of trails and pathways, etc.. But, you know, the whole reason why Mount Sunita's is Mount Sunita's is because of the sanatorium and because of the, that ethic of, you know, you know, for these patients who were sick, her basically recovering from tuberculosis, many of them from the East Coast, you know, they had daily walks.
00:11:05:16 - 00:11:25:19
John Simmerman
And so it was starting to create this again, that culture of activity, that sense of, yeah, that's this is what we do in Boulder, you know, we've got mountain trails all over the place. We have, world famous rock climbing faces on the, on the Flatirons. And you start getting that that DNA, you start getting that groove of, yeah, this is who we are.
00:11:25:20 - 00:11:57:06
John Simmerman
We're a city of runners, you know, elite level runners and cyclists, elite level cyclists. But at the same time, it's just everyday people who are, like, caught up in that momentum of wanting to live a healthy, active lifestyle. And what I like to emphasize is that cities that don't have that can create that by creating an environment, working on an environment that you know, takes into consideration, building what I like to call these activity assets.
00:11:57:09 - 00:12:11:20
John Simmerman
Now, your business is all about creating a specific type of activity asset as well as a wellness asset. Talk a little bit about the work that you all do. And, you know, with 110%.
00:12:11:22 - 00:12:34:18
Jamie Sabbach
Sure, so, yeah, I certainly could have done a better job in the intro, but, Parks and Recreation is our. That's our lane, local government. You know, most folks recognize that their first touchpoint with their, their government is by way of a public park or entering a rec center, taking their children to a playground, whatever it might be.
00:12:34:18 - 00:12:56:09
Jamie Sabbach
And so it's a critical part of quality of life in a community. Some would suggest the most important part of quality of life in a community. We tend to be a bit of a unicorn because while we are in this space and we all are have been practitioners, we've all been in, a local government or many local governments serving the park and rec industry.
00:12:56:12 - 00:13:18:24
Jamie Sabbach
We focus primarily on fiscal stewardship. We've got a lot of, communities that have frankly, overextended themselves. They've built a lot of things they can no longer take care of. And, you know, that's it's a it's a bit of a tragic story that we're now trying to figure out. How are we going to make sure that these parks, become, you know, a legacy?
00:13:18:24 - 00:13:42:00
Jamie Sabbach
And the communities we talk often about, you know, it's easy to plan for the citizens of 2025, but how do you ensure that you're leaving, a positive legacy for the citizens of 2050? What are you leaving behind in terms of liability and assets and so on? So, we are all privileged to serve this field. Frankly, I don't think there's an any more important form of government.
00:13:42:04 - 00:14:11:18
Jamie Sabbach
Some would argue public safety is. But do you think about the public health implications of parks and recreation in a community? They're pretty astounding. They're dramatic and they're, they're incredibly influential to the, the quality of, of our lives. So, we emphasize public health. We are a public health profession. And it's just essentially kind of shifting perspective on the field and taking it, frankly, a little bit more seriously than many do.
00:14:11:21 - 00:14:37:08
Jamie Sabbach
You know, we're beyond day camps and, you know, special events and daddy daughter dances. It's significantly more deep and rich, than that. So, our three pillars are ethical decision making, fiscal stewardship, and adaptive leadership in a very dynamic society today, with an economy that's constantly changing, social dynamics always shifting, and then obviously environmental concerns that we all carry, regardless of where we are in the world.
00:14:37:10 - 00:14:42:07
John Simmerman
Yeah. Now, this is your team. Why don't you go ahead and introduce your team here?
00:14:42:09 - 00:15:04:06
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. So this is the dream team. We are small. I've heard somebody recently call us a boutique consulting firm, and admittedly, I do not like that word, but nonetheless, we are small but mighty. And we've chosen to to stay that way. And we're very discerning about the projects we entertain. Again, all of us have been in the field, to my, on the screen to the left is Farrell Buller.
00:15:04:06 - 00:15:27:09
Jamie Sabbach
She's, principal, an executive coach, former park and rec director turned city manager turned, consultant. In the background is Alexis Rankine. She's a project consultant and data analyst. She does most of our cost of service analysis work. The stuff that's least sexy, most critical. And then on the right is Matt David. He's our utility player.
00:15:27:09 - 00:15:42:04
Jamie Sabbach
He really, frankly, is. He is our handler. He takes care of the day to day, definitely behind the scenes, but he makes the engine run. And they're incredibly powerful group. And I'm very privileged to work alongside each of them.
00:15:42:07 - 00:15:51:10
John Simmerman
Now, here's an interesting question for you. Because in today's day and age, you. I wonder about this. Are you all based there in or is this a remote team?
00:15:51:12 - 00:16:08:06
Jamie Sabbach
This is primarily remote team. Alexis and Sheryl are in the Denver metro area. I, of course, and in Slido, three hours outside of Denver. And then Matt is actually in Stillwater, Minnesota, just east of the Minnesota road, Minneapolis Saint Paul area.
00:16:08:08 - 00:16:11:11
John Simmerman
Fantastic. And where is the setting of this photo?
00:16:11:13 - 00:16:31:20
Jamie Sabbach
This is actually in the Front Range, Westminster, outside of Denver. This was a team retreat. We we get together twice a year, once. And so later in the spring, and then in the winter, we always get together in the Denver metro area. Matt flies in with his, amazing wife and little boy. And we do our strategic planning sessions.
00:16:31:20 - 00:16:37:07
Jamie Sabbach
And, you can tell by the looks on our faces, we actually have a good time, so.
00:16:37:09 - 00:17:08:06
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is fantastic. So in your intro to the organization, you said a few words that really harken back to, the terminology that my very good friend and frequent guest here on the podcast, Chuck Marone, was strong towns uses, because it really emphasizes that concept of fiscal responsibility, of how we design our communities and our cities.
00:17:08:08 - 00:17:34:04
John Simmerman
And he and I were having a discussion, as we, were in Providence, Rhode Island, for the Seeing You and Strong Towns national gathering, this this past spring, early or actually early summer, I think it was in June. And we were walking through a parkway or a park, and we were reflecting on the fact, that these are not just amenities, these are not just extras.
00:17:34:11 - 00:17:41:20
John Simmerman
This is part of the reason why a community is truly successful, which is exactly what you were saying.
00:17:41:22 - 00:18:06:19
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. You know, we, I think collective right. The way we our communities tend to take those public lands for granted sometimes and that's through my lens. And what I see through my experiences, unless we are the direct beneficiary. Right. We don't if I don't use that park, I don't take my children to that playground.
00:18:06:19 - 00:18:28:26
Jamie Sabbach
My kids aren't in that. You know, that baseball league, whatever it might be, there's a bit of a dismiss around the value of that to our community. And understanding that they can be incredibly productive assets to our community, when we may not be the direct beneficiary. So thinking about it in this broad stroke way, we use the phrase common good a lot.
00:18:28:28 - 00:18:50:17
Jamie Sabbach
Rather than focusing solely on what's good for any one user individual, how to how do these things, these assets, these amenities, these gifts to our communities really contribute to the quality of life for everyone? And I think there's, again, there's a bit of a dismiss in a community like a boulder. Or I would suggest that the majority of the community are quite active.
00:18:50:20 - 00:19:09:27
Jamie Sabbach
You know, I work for the city of Boulder for quite a few years, and we did many surveys and found that over 90% of the community actually use parks, trails, open spaces in Boulder. If you look across the country, that figure is probably going to be closer to 50 or 60%. And so communities are going to value those spaces differently, there's no doubt about it.
00:19:09:27 - 00:19:37:20
Jamie Sabbach
But, the, the, the richness that they provide, a community and again, contribute to this idea of overall quality of life can sometimes be overlooked. And, we in our field, try to hammer home the point that these things are precious and they're gifts, and we need to be thoughtful about how we acquire, how we build, how we develop and how we maintain so that we frankly don't lose them.
00:19:37:20 - 00:19:42:29
Jamie Sabbach
And we don't, you know, we don't diminish their quality and their contributions to our overall community.
00:19:43:01 - 00:19:48:03
John Simmerman
Right. Which brings us around to financial sustainability.
00:19:48:05 - 00:20:18:09
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. So, we again, you know, it's certainly a hard story to tell. We're an incredibly important part of the local communities quality of life. Yet we're fragile like all of local government. If we don't do things well. And unfortunately, there's story after story after story today about communities being on fiscal cliffs, overextending themselves, building beyond their means, extending debt to the next generation.
00:20:18:09 - 00:20:43:18
Jamie Sabbach
And it's really become a very, unfortunate narrative and part of our work. And, I would say a majority of our work is in the line of fiscal stewardship. It's helping systems understand how they spend money, how they spend taxpayer dollars, spend and invest, if you will, investing for return of some kind, and creating strategies to ensure or at least try to ensure that they are a sustainable organization.
00:20:43:18 - 00:21:09:08
Jamie Sabbach
The stewardship is the means. The sustainability is the end. So we do deep dives with, park and rec systems across the country. We've worked in Napa, California, Austin, Texas, Brookline, Massachusetts, the Chicago metro area and everywhere in between. And we want to help them understand how they're spending and investing taxpayer resources. Those subsidies, those precious subsidies they have, ensuring they're having the greatest impact on their community and, frankly, that they can pay their bills.
00:21:09:10 - 00:21:37:21
Jamie Sabbach
That's a very succinct CliffsNotes version of what it is, but it's the stuff that a lot of folks very simply do not want to talk about. It's not warm and fuzzy. It's challenging. It's not complicated, but it's complex and it's critically important. It's a foundation from which organizations can think about, supporting and enduring as opposed to just continuing to be enamored with growth and development and adding more things.
00:21:37:21 - 00:21:56:26
Jamie Sabbach
It's how do you take care of what you have? How do you write the checks? I always say, you know, you can have all these great aspirations, big social service arts, but if you can't write the checks, nothing else matters. And so it's, again, it's a critically important part of ensuring that these systems are around for the long haul.
00:21:56:29 - 00:22:03:22
Jamie Sabbach
And some of us that have been around a while, as I have, are quite worried about the future of our profession, frankly.
00:22:03:25 - 00:22:29:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, you know, to bring this back around to sort of the Strong Towns narrative and the things that, you know, Chuck talks about with his team and, and, and has brought us around to really kind of understanding too, is that it's difficult for us to be able to support the built environment that we have created as we have spread out through horizontal expansion.
00:22:29:27 - 00:23:08:15
John Simmerman
You simply cannot tax people enough to be able to support the infrastructure that you have. So you're constantly you know, he calls it the Ponzi scheme, this illusion of wealth that you have because you just you cannot do that. And that's one of the biggest challenges, I think with these activity assets that we're building, these parks and trails and pathways and linear parks is that if you're not, if it's difficult for us to create that financial stability and sustainability, if you're just spreads so thin across the landscape, how do you sort of balance that with, with these cities?
00:23:08:18 - 00:23:33:00
John Simmerman
You know, having lived in Austin, Texas for, the past 11 years, we have a pretty good access to parks and access to open space and access to, trails and pathways. On a per capita basis, you can access them, but it's one of the worst in terms of on a per capital base per capita basis of funding, said parks.
00:23:33:00 - 00:23:39:24
John Simmerman
And so they're constantly in disrepair and ill maintenance.
00:23:39:27 - 00:24:08:15
Jamie Sabbach
So. Again, the level of complexity, certainly. So if you think about your parks and, you know, as we think about this work, you think about your parks, trails, your open spaces, things that are intended to be accessible to anyone, sometimes they're just not. But the idea is that, you know, just because something's available doesn't mean it's accessible, but the intention is that you're trying to create these spaces that are accessible to a majority of, if not the entire community.
00:24:08:18 - 00:24:27:01
Jamie Sabbach
And those are places we refer to as self-directed. Right. You can self-directed your activity in a park or a trail. Right? I can go for a walk. I don't need anybody to instruct me on taking a hike, taking a walk, taking my child to the playground. What we've done is we've compromised those spaces, by way of these ambitions around.
00:24:27:01 - 00:24:53:01
Jamie Sabbach
We need a rec center. We need pickleball courts. We need more pools. Those are not needs. Those are desires, and those are interests. And they've become expectations of communities that are loud and demanding. And we have not been able to meet the expectation by way of the operations. And maintenance of these assets. It's easy to build. It's easy to spend money, right?
00:24:53:02 - 00:25:08:19
Jamie Sabbach
It's easy to construct a property. It's much more difficult to figure out how you're going to operate, and you're going to maintain it over the next 20 years. That's the rub. So if you think about it, art, there's no narrative. I mean, we've created a cultural narrative of Parks and Recreation, and we've got to be everything to everyone, all the time.
00:25:08:21 - 00:25:35:10
Jamie Sabbach
And that's become our demise as opposed to our subsidies. Go to our parks. Our trails are open spaces and maybe services that we might deem to be more common, good aligned. But when you think about exclusive, highly specialized spaces in our communities that are very resource intensive, we did not do the math and chocolate align with this. You know, he he talks about this a lot and so does Kevin.
00:25:35:10 - 00:26:07:21
Jamie Sabbach
If we're doing Kevin Shepherd opportunity and, we do not do the math very well in local government, period. And, you know, we just did an analysis for an organization in California, and they were adamant about building this $50 million recreation center. That was in a 2019 master plan, which had no fiscal analysis. And at the end of the day, you understand that over the next 25 years, that $50 million construction bill actually adds up to $140 million and operations and maintenance costs associated with that asset.
00:26:07:24 - 00:26:27:19
Jamie Sabbach
But we don't talk about that. You know, we don't pull the curtain back and go, let's talk about all the detail, right? The devil's in the details. So, we need to do a better job. And I, I truly believe we're in a great position right now, an opportunistic position, because we're starting to have these conversations, unfortunately, because of desperation in some communities.
00:26:27:21 - 00:26:51:21
Jamie Sabbach
But nonetheless, I think many have gotten there to say, okay, we need to rethink, our idea of growth. We need to rethink how we develop. We need to rethink how we're budgeting. We need to rethink the use of our revenue streams, rather than it's always got to be about the next bright, shiny thing that we can add to our our system because it's coming at a pretty significant price to our communities.
00:26:51:23 - 00:27:05:26
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, you mentioned the you name dropped. Kevin, here's Kevin, and yeah, so it was wonderful to learn I didn't learn this until just today that you, you know, Kevin and or working with him. So why don't you introduce this photo for the audience?
00:27:05:29 - 00:27:24:24
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. So this is one of the. We actually have hosted a financial sustainability certificate program. It's been primarily for public park and recreation professionals, but we're now seeing planners in the room and engineers in the room and city managers in the room. We've even had elected officials come to this class. We've held about 30 of these since 2023.
00:27:24:24 - 00:27:44:04
Jamie Sabbach
This one happens to have been in Lewisville, Texas, in the Dallas metroplex. Kevin in the background there. And then his cohort, Marshall, both with virginity and their a, land use fiscal analysis firm. And they do incredible work. And we've been, privileged to not only get to know them, but work together on a couple of projects. Yeah.
00:27:44:06 - 00:28:00:11
Jamie Sabbach
And Kevin and I are actually teaching a part two together. So I've been teaching part one, and he and I, now he's a he's a retired planner, engineer. We're now teaching a part two and reaching a broader audience and casting a broader net around this very topic.
00:28:00:13 - 00:28:20:21
John Simmerman
And tastic. And I pulled up, Kevin's website again for dignity. And, Kevin's name might be so familiar to my audience here. Yes, he has been on the podcast. I think it was way back in season one. It might have been audio only at that time. So, yeah, way back in the dark ages of, of 2020.
00:28:20:21 - 00:28:51:01
John Simmerman
And the pandemic, I think is when, he and I last spoke, this brings up, another initiative, that comes to mind when you were talking about access and that is, the trust for public Lands and the, the ten Minute walk campaign to try to, ensure that these parks and open spaces and facilities are truly accessible to, as many people as possible within a community.
00:28:51:01 - 00:29:15:02
John Simmerman
And this concept of trying to create, the, you know, this, this concept of, of a ten minute walk, meaning that you shouldn't have to, like, go out of your way to try to get to one of these mega facilities where you may have to drive just to get there. But I like to say, yeah, I mean, these activity assets should really be accessible for everyone, all ages and all abilities.
00:29:15:04 - 00:29:41:13
John Simmerman
It should be like a ten minute walk from your, your, your domicile. Or I also like to say, or a five minute bike ride. You know, it needs to be someplace that, you know, proximity wise is is there. And it's okay if it's not a mega park. It's okay that it's not this massive, massive sports complex. It could be a, you know, access to, like, as in the photo here, like a riverfront, you know, a linear park.
00:29:41:13 - 00:30:07:27
John Simmerman
Or it could be a pocket park. Speak to that a little bit. And how does that relate back to what you guys talk about in terms of like helping cities understand the fiscal responsibility of, okay, if you do head in this direction of a pocket park or a smaller footprint, access to nature, you still have to budget for it so that you maintain it and you and it doesn't immediately go into disarray.
00:30:08:00 - 00:30:31:15
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. Again, a lot to unpack there. I will say there was an actually, very good colleague was, instrumental in I would suggest the principal driver in this park score ten minute walk campaign for a trust for public lands. There's a lot of nobility in this, right? Be able to walk to a park within ten minutes of the threshold of my home.
00:30:31:17 - 00:30:58:19
Jamie Sabbach
But as we create that ambition, we've got to be able to maintain these assets right? And we've gotten so, in the weeds around benchmarking. You know, the national standards are to suggest we have to have this many parks per thousand people, but we don't speak about the quality of the asset. Exactly. We just just we're going to have, you know, this green space that could potentially fall into disrepair if we have assumed too much, jump.
00:30:58:19 - 00:31:36:04
John Simmerman
In so quickly. Can I jump in real quickly and say that I'm glad you mentioned the quality matters, because when I really talk about an activity asset being truly, safe and inviting and welcoming to all ages and abilities, there's a difference between, you know, one of boulders, you know, brilliant off street network of trails that is, you know, it has, you know, a beautiful setting, access to the, you know, the, the river a you know, the Boulder Creek Inn in, you know, in nature and one where you're like on a pathway that's in an industrial area and you don't feel safe.
00:31:36:04 - 00:31:40:17
John Simmerman
It's it's bleak. It's, you know, you get where I'm going here.
00:31:40:19 - 00:31:40:28
Jamie Sabbach
Or.
00:31:41:04 - 00:32:03:19
John Simmerman
My background is in behavior modification. And if we want to encourage people to change their behavior and be more active, especially for everyday utilitarian purposes, it has to be a pleasant experience. You can't not feel like you're fearful of your life. And so I'm glad you really mentioned the quality. The qualitative side matters as well.
00:32:03:21 - 00:32:28:18
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah, we admittedly our team, we push back on benchmarking depending on what it is benchmarking as it's, you know, time and place. But when it comes to certain things, it is a useless exercise, to suggest that community X should have this many acres per thousand and this community should have this many acres per thousand, is a very difficult, and, and rational, approach to take.
00:32:28:18 - 00:32:50:09
Jamie Sabbach
There's a kind of a predictable irrationality to that. I don't know if that's the word, but it's kind of how I think about it. We we're working with an organization right now. They're in a very densely populated part of the United States. Tpo their park scored 92% of the community lives within ten minutes of a park.
00:32:50:09 - 00:33:11:11
Jamie Sabbach
But here's the rub. They have a lot of sidewalks to nowhere. It's not a walkable community by any stretch. It's incredibly car centric. So just because that park is within ten minutes doesn't mean I can get there. Alternatively, certain communities in the United States have a lot of hoa's, and in those ways they have a lot of assets that are theirs.
00:33:11:11 - 00:33:33:04
Jamie Sabbach
And there's a loan to use for their homeowners. They're not community assets, they're HOA assets. Those tend to get folded into some of these metrics and these analyzes. So there's a lot of mislead, unintentional mislead. Again, I think there's nobility in the idea that everyone is within a ten minute walk of a park or a public space, but you need to dive deeper.
00:33:33:04 - 00:33:46:24
Jamie Sabbach
You know, you need to go below the surface a bit and really get into the the nuance and the details around this before you can actually make a statement. Around 72% of my community can access a park within ten minutes or whatever it might be.
00:33:46:26 - 00:34:06:26
John Simmerman
Which, by the way, is exactly the point that I made when I interviewed folks from the, I think it was Bianca, a shoe locker. From TPL, about the ten minute walk campaign is that it's it has to be more than just proximity. It has to be. Can you actually get there from here, even though it's theoretically possible?
00:34:06:28 - 00:34:30:28
John Simmerman
And is it a pleasant experience? And that's where one of the beefs that I have with a lot of things like walk, score and routing systems, like, you know, if you use Google Maps to get you from point A to point B, it almost always facilitates the quickest route, doesn't necessarily mean the most enjoyable route or the or the safest route or, the most beautiful route.
00:34:30:28 - 00:34:32:06
John Simmerman
I mean.
00:34:32:08 - 00:34:34:06
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. And again, really matters.
00:34:34:06 - 00:34:34:25
John Simmerman
Yeah.
00:34:34:27 - 00:35:16:28
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah, absolutely. Again, probably six months ago, there was a, a celebratory post on LinkedIn about, you know, we have just met our, our metrics for, you know, the ten minute walk campaign. And if you look under the hood, the city very large major metro area, the United States is in fiscal crisis and chaos. It's like you already have hundreds of millions of dollars in maintenance backlog just in parks and recreation, and you're adding more to the system so that you can get an award or create the celebratory facade around the fact that you're doing good work and you're not.
00:35:17:01 - 00:35:32:15
Jamie Sabbach
This is it's, it's quintessential irresponsibility in local government. And, it's really an incredibly unfortunate, narrative again, that, that we're we've been sharing the stories have been the wrong stories to tell very simply.
00:35:32:18 - 00:36:00:07
John Simmerman
Well, and and here's here's the challenge, too, is that in in and Chuck talks about this a lot as well is that if you just keep adding more let's use roads as an example. You know, roadway miles you're just creating more fiscal responsibility and future, you know, debt obligations, you know, obligations for future maintenance, etc.. Same thing with with parks and trails and pathways.
00:36:00:09 - 00:36:21:27
John Simmerman
These are activity assets. These are assets, you know, when when you look at it from this, you know, standpoint of these are wonderful amenities and benefits to the community etc.. If dot dot dot, they're safe and inviting and welcoming and well-maintained and data, in other words, they're also they yes, they are assets, but they are also liabilities.
00:36:21:27 - 00:36:59:24
John Simmerman
And responsibilities that you have to maintain. And, you know, we have not only the money but also the physical resources, the people that can, you know, upkeep these. We were having a discussion just recently with, here on the podcast, from, up in Canada, up in, Winnipeg about the fact that, you know, at one point in time they had a full time person responsible for maintaining the parks and the whole from a whole horticulture perspective and keeping the gardens alive and everything.
00:36:59:27 - 00:37:27:00
John Simmerman
And then, yeah, it just was determined. Yeah. We don't have enough money to do that. And so in the 1960s, they laid this person off or they didn't replace this person after they retired or whatever the case may be, and what used to be like a park that was so beautiful that it was featured on postcards, you know, goes into, into disrepair and neglect and all of these things.
00:37:27:02 - 00:38:12:10
John Simmerman
How does a city in it? This is an unfair question for you, for for you to answer. But I mean it it brings up the point that when you look at the city budget, there's a lot of other competing, narratives and competing projects that are screaming, we need attention. And again, if it's a typical North American city, maybe also in Australia and New Zealand and other places where you've had horizontal car oriented development pattern, you are going to have fiscal challenges and strain and not enough money can go around.
00:38:12:12 - 00:38:37:11
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah, there's no one answer to that. Clearly. But you know, the oversimplification here is we just didn't know when to say enough was enough. And so it's led us to this place now of competing interests, priorities. You know, who's priorities. We ask that question a lot. Whose priorities? The special interest that keeps blowing into the council meetings and keeps demanding, you know, that.
00:38:37:11 - 00:38:59:07
Jamie Sabbach
Does that your priority or is it, you know, public health indicators, what is your priority? And so I think that's something that systems struggle with. They have to grapple with is what is the priority. Do we need to do we have the backbone and the spine to address the conflicts and make some very difficult choices and tell people frankly know when they need to hear?
00:38:59:07 - 00:39:19:22
Jamie Sabbach
No, it was not long. That long ago, I facilitated a full day, workshop on Stewardship and sustainability, fiscal stewardship, with a council and the mayor very end. He said, you know, the one big takeaway I have from this is I need to learn to say no more and stop being a people pleaser. And I'm like, oh, there you go.
00:39:19:24 - 00:39:40:24
Jamie Sabbach
Right? I mean, I couldn't have asked for more. Very nice human. He cares deeply for his community, but he didn't want to tell anybody. No. So they just kept adding the system. And now they're underwater financially. And he's saying, okay, now we need to call time. So I think when a local government gets into that place, a budget, first of all, stewardship is not an annual exercise.
00:39:40:24 - 00:39:55:17
Jamie Sabbach
I say this over and over again. There's no finish line to this work. It needs to be all day, every day. We need to be very thoughtful about where we're spending and investing. What kind of returns are we getting? Are we having the impacts we need to have? Right. There's some of these more obvious questions we need to to ask and answer.
00:39:55:19 - 00:40:17:04
Jamie Sabbach
But you can't go into a budget session annually and just, you know, pull straws or put a bunch of post-it notes up on a wall. It is completely ineffective. That is bad management at its finest. You've got to dive deep. You've got to understand the costs of providing services. You've got to understand what your revenue projections look like.
00:40:17:04 - 00:40:40:22
Jamie Sabbach
You can't keep expecting to get more of what may not exist. You have to think differently about what you have. And I think those things can be very, revealing in terms of connecting the dots between available resources, impact, right, intended outcomes in a community and where we need to be spending those precious resources. And that's sometimes a really difficult exercise for people to go through.
00:40:40:22 - 00:41:00:00
Jamie Sabbach
And I will say this, you know, any opportunity I have now, as I've gotten older, I didn't have much of a filter when I was young. And it's really gotten done as I've aged with a lot of people in very influential positions that should not be in those positions. We have city managers that should not be city managers, and we have council members that should have never run for a council seat.
00:41:00:02 - 00:41:26:14
Jamie Sabbach
I think that's the minority. But those that are doing damage because they don't have, you know, the conviction to make very difficult decisions on behalf of their community, proper, are creating more problems. And that is the last thing local government needs right now. It needs adaptive leadership. It needs courage. It needs the you know, it needs the conviction, again, to have really difficult conversations.
00:41:26:14 - 00:41:33:04
Jamie Sabbach
That is what's going to be necessary to dig some of these systems out of the big holes that they've dug for themselves.
00:41:33:07 - 00:41:56:15
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, you mentioned it earlier in, you know, sort of channeling public health, which is my background. I started my career in, in public health, really working on health care, cost containment strategies and all of that about for 15 years. And then 20 some odd years ago, I made the shift to looking at our built environment and how that impacts health and well-being and public health.
00:41:56:18 - 00:42:21:15
John Simmerman
So doing math, that's 35 years I've been doing this. And it it comes to mind that that we, we don't really think about how this intersects with public health. You also mentioned public safety. And we don't really think about how this intersects with that. It's always, oh, that's just the parks. We can bleed them to death. We don't need to fund this.
00:42:21:15 - 00:42:51:09
John Simmerman
We don't need to. We can build it. It's and then once it's built, it's done. I hear you saying that a part of of dealing with this is not continuing to add to the responsibilities and add to the liability, build even more parks and trails or whatever that you can't afford. But at the same time, I'm also hearing you saying that for these cities, they need to get real about what they're funding and how they're funding it.
00:42:51:09 - 00:43:03:06
John Simmerman
Because if you're if you're sending, like the bulk of your dollars to transportation and public safety and all these other areas, you're going to be starving a whole bunch of other areas.
00:43:03:09 - 00:43:21:19
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, first and foremost, we are a public health profession. And, you know, I will challenge any system by way of saying, what are the what are the health indicators in your community? We can start your purpose conversation right there. What are the health indicators in your community? Very few can answer that question. They've not picked up a public health report.
00:43:21:20 - 00:43:42:11
Jamie Sabbach
They haven't looked at a school district report to say that, you know, 42% of the children in our community are considered clinically obese. Hypothetically, mental health is a huge problem in our community. We don't do that. And what we do is we say, oh, what's the latest trend in public parks and recreation? Pickleball. Now, pickleball is a great healthy activity.
00:43:42:11 - 00:44:00:22
Jamie Sabbach
But are we being intentional about saying, all right, if we want to address childhood obesity in our community, what services should we be offering, and what's the manner in which we should be offering and what other entities within the community should we bring together to collaborate to try to impact that issue? We are a public health profession and we've lost our way over the years.
00:44:00:25 - 00:44:21:22
Jamie Sabbach
Daddy daughter dances and parent child dances are lovely and they're really cute. But is that the best use of subsidies? Right, for the 30 kids and the 30 parents that show up? We just really dissect our service menu. We would find we would start to question what we're doing and why we're doing it. We should always be starting with, you know, what's the intended purpose or what's the intended outcome?
00:44:21:22 - 00:44:46:26
Jamie Sabbach
If it's to address public health indicators, then we need to work backwards and say, what kind of services should we offer in order to do that? But this idea that we're just going to keep building things and keep adding things to our system is a completely it's a backwards way of thinking about community impact. And I think systems that you when you start asking those questions and you poke the bear a bit and you get provocative, they go, yeah, I mean, all we're talking about is a logic model, right?
00:44:46:26 - 00:45:08:11
Jamie Sabbach
It's a business model. But we're so driven by our big social service hearts and public parks and recreation. We tend to engage this, you know, this particular, you know, thing that drives logic, right? It drives intelligent decision making. And we've got to balance these two things, and we don't do a very good job of that sometimes.
00:45:08:13 - 00:45:30:11
John Simmerman
Yeah. So we've been lingering on your resources page. So yeah, I want to mention the fact that. Yes. So obviously you are a consultancy a boutique consultancy. And you are, you know, working directly with cities, but you also have some wonderful posts out on your, your resources page. Why don't you, introduce this to the, audience as well?
00:45:30:13 - 00:45:52:02
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. So we, I write quite a bit. I'm actually in the process. I followed my my, role models lead and Ryan, of course, short from civic brand. Just released his book. I'll be releasing one in the first quarter. But I've been writing. I've been writing a lot of articles over the years. And they're about things, again that we typically don't talk about.
00:45:52:05 - 00:46:20:07
Jamie Sabbach
Those are on this resource page. We've got podcasts and interviews and, you know, live webinars that we've done over the years on here as well. It's a really I think, very valuable resource page. Many people that have been in either the classes I've taught, in the, you know, the organizations of which we've had the chance to work have used this as a, I think, a great resource to help inform and educate their colleagues, bring it to attention of a city manager or maybe an elected board or council.
00:46:20:10 - 00:46:38:15
Jamie Sabbach
But it's it's really I've gotten quite the warm reception and we're very proud of, the build out. So, yeah. And there have been some very provocative articles on there that have rubbed some individuals the wrong way. And I welcome those debates and that deliberation.
00:46:38:18 - 00:47:09:15
John Simmerman
Well, and it is it's it's difficult, especially. And Chuck brings this up all the time, as part of the Strong Towns narrative, it's difficult to make a lot of these difficult decisions from a fiscally responsible perspective. When you're built environment, your community is built upon a model that, again, you, as I said earlier, you just can't tax people enough to be able to support the infrastructure obligation that you have.
00:47:09:18 - 00:47:12:18
John Simmerman
You know, on the streets and underground.
00:47:12:20 - 00:47:30:15
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. Well, it's easy to ask people, do you want a new pool? How many people are going to say, no? You know, people are really could care less. You might say no, but then but but it's the manner in which we asked the question, would you like a new pool? Well, sure. Would you support a new pool? What do you mean by support?
00:47:30:21 - 00:47:46:25
Jamie Sabbach
Would you pay this much more in taxes annually? If you had to support the pool financially, would you pay this much more in taxes and also pay admission fees to be able to operate and maintain it? The response rate is going to be very different from question one, which is do you want to pool to you got to pay for it.
00:47:46:27 - 00:48:07:15
Jamie Sabbach
And we're not we just don't tell the story in that manner. We don't ask the questions in that manner. It's all about, what do you want? What do you want? And I've heard, a few people reference this. I actually use this in the book, but this whole idea of consumerization of local government that, you know, I pay my taxes, therefore I should get something out of it.
00:48:07:15 - 00:48:37:04
Jamie Sabbach
Well, you are, but a lot of what you get, you, you're not paying attention to like, you know, that road that you just drove on, you know, in the clean water that you get to drink every day and the sidewalks and it's like, we don't the synapses aren't firing sometimes when we think about the transaction, and this idea that the government is just going to keep giving, giving, giving, and at the same time live in a society where there's a little bit of a distaste around government, I just find to be an incredible conflict.
00:48:37:06 - 00:49:06:00
Jamie Sabbach
You know, there's a contradiction in all of it. So it's our job to educate and inform and do it not in a patronizing or you don't get it. You know, we need to help you understand manner, but in a participatory manner. So that they see themselves as co stewards rather than the recipient of services. I go to a little coffee shop here in Salina with regularity, particularly since I've been writing a lot, and I was sitting at a table by myself.
00:49:06:00 - 00:49:25:05
Jamie Sabbach
I secure the same location I get to plug in. I when I get there, first thing in the morning and about an hour in, I saw this group of people gravitate to this high top, and they started talking. And what I realized was there were two parents interviewing a potential new swim coach, and we have an aquatic facility in this little community, and it's a hot springs fed aquatic facility.
00:49:25:12 - 00:49:44:01
Jamie Sabbach
It's incredibly special, but it needs probably $10 million in investment because it's old, it's dated, it's got a lot of issues. And I heard loud and clear, the two parents were going on and on about the city, the city's chirp. Can you believe the city's charging us to use the pool? Can you believe the city raised our fees?
00:49:44:01 - 00:50:03:22
Jamie Sabbach
Can you believe? And it was like this attack on the city. And I, I was I kept my composure and I stayed seated, but I wanted to get up and go. You do understand that you're the city, right? I mean, the city doesn't exist without you. The taxpayer. But it was an attack on the city and the. And the city, frankly, doesn't charge.
00:50:03:22 - 00:50:26:24
Jamie Sabbach
They're moving towards a more financially sustainable model. But it was just striking to me, and I shouldn't have been surprised, but it was in my community, right. And I was sitting there as a resident, not as a consultant. But there's that's a pervasive, mindset, right? And perspective that we carry. And I hear it a lot. I hear it from a city council member saying, what do you mean we can't do that for the kids?
00:50:26:24 - 00:50:45:17
Jamie Sabbach
You're going to tell the kids, no. I'm like, oh, this is not a hard string story. This is supposed to be a very rational conversation around how do you spend what you have? So we're kind of in an interesting, place right now. There's a definitely, it's a tipping point, there's no doubt about it.
00:50:45:19 - 00:51:07:10
John Simmerman
And that brings up, you know, the question is, what is the model that, you know, a city, you know, just using this as an example, this the swimming pool in this program, is it a situation where cities have to be looking at this as more like a business and try to turn a profit and, and be charging?
00:51:07:10 - 00:51:13:09
John Simmerman
And then if so, then what about the residents that can't afford said services?
00:51:13:12 - 00:51:32:03
Jamie Sabbach
Fantastic question. I get this one a lot. You know, government is not intended to be a profit engine. That's not what government's about. At the same time, government has to cover its costs. It's just the way it is. Right? That's that's the basic model. If I spend $10, I get a fine $10. We're not in the business of being wasteful.
00:51:32:03 - 00:51:52:00
Jamie Sabbach
We're not in the business of losing money. We have to be in the business of recovering our expenses. The manner in which we do that by way of taxes and alternative revenues and so on, is part of the dance, right? That's the dance we have to to dance. But if we're smart, I will say I'll use that word for smarter.
00:51:52:03 - 00:52:12:03
Jamie Sabbach
But how we spend and invest our resources, that allows us to provide for those who need assistance. Because when we, I'll, I'll call this out. You know, this idea of welfare for the rich, when we subsidize services for those who have an ability to pay, we're doing it on the backs of those who can't, doing on the backs of everybody in a community who can.
00:52:12:05 - 00:52:33:06
Jamie Sabbach
And so, you know, I hear a lot in our work, one of the first things you'll, you'll hear from a professional staff and a focus group is we willing to keep everything affordable. And I'll always follow with. What does that mean? What do you mean affordable? You know, when you charge a dollar for something, there's a value perception on behalf of the customer that it's cheap, it's not worth anything.
00:52:33:06 - 00:52:50:14
Jamie Sabbach
But you talk about how important the services you provide. Our marketing 101 tells you when you charge a buck, the value add to that is nothing from the consumer's perspective. So what do you mean affordable? Well, we don't want to price people out of the market. Well, who are the people that you're talking about? And I'll use senior discounts as discounts.
00:52:50:14 - 00:53:09:25
Jamie Sabbach
As the classic example, I go hard in on senior discounts across the United States. It's one of these things that we've been doing for decades with the presumption that all older adults can't afford. Here's the fun fact across the United States generalization the population with the most discretionary income over our older adults. But we keep giving them discounts.
00:53:09:27 - 00:53:28:04
Jamie Sabbach
But then we can't help the family of four whose mom and dad lost their jobs during Covid, and they've been working a bunch of part time jobs because we don't have the resources to help them because we're discounting a population, have an ability to pay. So it's getting into those details in a system, right, diving deep and going, where are you?
00:53:28:04 - 00:53:52:00
Jamie Sabbach
What are you subsidizing and to what degree, and is that the best use of your subsidy? Are there alternative ways to think about it? To me is how you address the issue of affordability in a community and willingness to pay versus ability to pay, and really challenging how you've been spending, in contrast to maybe how you should be spending in order to have the greatest impact on the community proper.
00:53:52:02 - 00:54:23:24
John Simmerman
Yeah. Well, let's close out with some, positivity here. Let's, close out on, a couple of, projects by, spotlight here and, some success stories, because what we've been talking about seems kind of like, we're doomed. We just we we've our cities are in a situation where what we're subsidizing most every day, day in and day out is people driving and being able to park for free everywhere and drive everywhere for everything.
00:54:23:27 - 00:54:36:14
John Simmerman
Sorry, there's no money left for Parks and Recreation because that's who we are. We're a driving society. So give, give some projects, give us some hope that, there's something that we can do in our communities.
00:54:36:17 - 00:54:54:15
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah. I said this earlier, probably got lost in the narrative, but this is an opportunistic time. It's a tipping point. We're starting to pay more attention, which to me is a good thing. I think the rose colored glasses are starting to come off. I can't say enough about a number of systems doing really good work. We just happened to have two.
00:54:54:16 - 00:55:19:14
Jamie Sabbach
We're starting a brag book, is what we're calling it. Napa. Actually, we had a narrated. We had a professional narrator come in and help us tell the story of Napa Parks and Recreation. But both of the systems that you see there, Shanahan Park District, special district in the Chicago metro area in Napa, California, we're struggling financially. Napa in particular, in April of 2020, was instructed to, essentially divest of the park and rec system.
00:55:19:16 - 00:55:45:04
Jamie Sabbach
And if you think about that, it sounds it's a tragedy, right? Napa, California, getting rid of Parks and Recreation. But they were on a fiscal cliff and they they dove in. They wanted to understand their fiscal realities, their conditions. They engaged their commissioners, their appointed officials and their elected officials, their city council. They had one on one, multi-hour work sessions with them to help them understand what was happening.
00:55:45:07 - 00:56:09:06
Jamie Sabbach
And they actually, created a strategy, a financial sustainability strategy and plan that followed, with policy to get them on the right track and on course. And they are, I call them rock stars. It was, you know, a collective effort, really led by their recreation manager, who at the time was kind of serving in an interim director capacity to get the ball rolling.
00:56:09:09 - 00:56:37:28
Jamie Sabbach
But their entire team jumped on board. Their council was engaged, their city manager was an advocate, and they flipped the script. And they have truly become a role model. I think for this work across the United States. And we can't celebrate them enough and champion the work that they continue to do there. The other organization, Shanahan Park District, again, struggling, had a lot of deferred maintenance, had inequities in their community and wanted to flip the script and how they were spending money and they've done it.
00:56:38:00 - 00:57:02:04
Jamie Sabbach
So there's a lot of good work happening, but these are systems that have gone into this eyes wide open. They've not pretended like everything was going to be okay and money was going to fall from the sky. They recognized they had to do business differently, and, I couldn't be more proud of them. As a fellow park and rec person and just somebody in this field who cares deeply about the future of our profession, they're doing really good work, and they need to be celebrated for it.
00:57:02:06 - 00:57:14:07
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. And yeah, let's let's pop on over to that. Other examples so folks can get a quick visual of that. Again, this is in the is in Illinois. Is this in the Chicago land area?
00:57:14:09 - 00:57:33:13
Jamie Sabbach
It is. It's in the Chicago metro area. Chicago has what are called park districts. There's about eight states, the United States, that have park districts, special districts for park and rec services. Illinois happens to have the the most but it's a park and rec system just doesn't fall under the umbrella of the city. And, you know, I think the structure.
00:57:33:15 - 00:57:36:18
John Simmerman
Is that a good structure to consider?
00:57:36:20 - 00:57:58:25
Jamie Sabbach
Yeah, it's you know, they a municipal park and rec system and a special district. They have their advantages and their challenges. I don't think one is any better than the other. It's just a different structure. They their taxation tends to be different. They're primarily focused on property taxes. So, they both have advantages and they both have, challenges.
00:57:58:27 - 00:58:15:15
John Simmerman
Well, this is a wonderful introduction to your fabulous organization. I really do appreciate you, you know, introducing this concept to us all. Jamie, is there any final word that you'd like to leave the audience with?
00:58:15:18 - 00:58:36:22
Jamie Sabbach
No, I would just say, you know, be be a collaborator with your local park and rec department. And if you're not an, you know, an active participant in the services offered or you don't, you know, regularly visit a park or an open space or trail, just recognize the value that those things bring to quality of life in the community.
00:58:36:24 - 00:58:55:05
Jamie Sabbach
And, you know, don't hesitate reaching out to a director or a supervisor manager. Talk to the front desk staff members and learn a little bit more about the system. They're really invested. You know, the vast majority of people in our field care deeply about their communities. They're big social service arts. They want to do good work, and they want to collaborate with the community.
00:58:55:07 - 00:59:06:01
Jamie Sabbach
And so I would just, you know, ask you to learn a little bit more about the system and be a co steward and a co champion, alongside those people that are doing really good work for you.
00:59:06:03 - 00:59:29:07
John Simmerman
Fantastic. Fantastic. Jamie, this has been so much fun and a great honor. And folks, head on over to the website. That's 110% dot net dot in net. And that is 110 is is actually the number 110%. Jamie, again, thank you so very much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.
00:59:29:10 - 00:59:31:00
Jamie Sabbach
Thank you so much again.
00:59:31:00 - 00:59:48:17
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Jamie back, from Silverton, Colorado. And if you did, please hit give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, I'd be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on that subscription button down below and ring that notification bell.
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John Simmerman
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01:00:18:09 - 01:00:42:07
John Simmerman
Again, every little bit helps and is very much appreciated. Again, thank you so much for tuning in. It has been an absolute joy and pleasure and honor, producing this content over these many years as well as in 2025. I will see you again in 2026. Again, thank you all so much for tuning in. This is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness.
01:00:42:13 - 01:01:01:13
John Simmerman
Cheers and aloha. And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super! Thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and join my Patreon. Every little bit adds up is very much appreciated. Thank you all so much!