Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast

Why real development takes patience, perspective, and a lot less panic.

Scott and Jamie sit down with Bob Mancini - one of USA Hockey’s most influential minds and a key architect of the American Development Model (ADM) - to talk about what it really means to develop players the right way.

Mancini breaks down how small-area games, delayed checking, and skill-first systems aren’t just buzzwords, they’re the building blocks of a generation that can think the game, not just play it. He also gets candid about the cultural challenges holding youth hockey back: parent pressure, fear of falling behind, and mistaking busyness for development.

In this episode:
  • The science (and sanity) behind the ADM
  • Why delayed checking created smarter, safer players
  • How “more” hockey often leads to less growth
  • What parents misunderstand about the path and what scouts actually see
It’s the reminder every parent, coach, and player needs mid-season: progress isn’t instant, but it lasts a lifetime if you do it right.

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What is Crazy Hockey Dads Podcast?

A relatable and honest podcast about the highs and lows of being a youth hockey parent. Join us as we share real stories, struggles, and wins from the rink, offering insights and support for parents navigating the world of youth hockey.

Jamie:

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the crazy hockey dads podcast episode 40.

Scott:

Oh, do we ever.

Jamie:

Right? Mean, that yeah. Was

Scott:

The big but.

Jamie:

There's a but?

Scott:

There's a but.

Jamie:

I'm listening.

Scott:

The Crazy Hockey Dads podcast is the unfiltered podcast for hockey parents. No politics. No sugarcoating. It's just real talk from hockey parents in the trenches.

Jamie:

In the trenches with Bob Mancini from USA Hockey.

Scott:

Wow. What what a great interview, man. And go ahead. Just Bob Mancini. Yeah.

Scott:

Go ahead. You you wanna share a bit about Yeah. Who he is and what you know?

Jamie:

Yeah. So, yeah. So, today, we have, Bob Mancini. Bob is the executive the assistant executive director of player development for USA Hockey. He has a a very impressive history.

Jamie:

I think he said forty years of being in the in the hockey space. Right?

Scott:

Yeah.

Jamie:

He's been with the US Men's National Development Program. I think he still is, if I'm not mistaken. He's been, head of player development for the Edmonton Oilers. He's coached at the collegiate level for, I wanna say, Michigan Tech and two other teams. The guy has been around the game, and he's been with USA Hockey for a while now.

Jamie:

And talk about a wealth of information.

Scott:

Currently, in his role, he oversees youth hockey, coaching education, officiating, and player safety. And he was one of the the key people in developing the American development model.

Jamie:

The ADM model. Yeah.

Scott:

Also known as the ADM, which is an acronym we'll use a bunch in the interview a little bit later. And before joining USA Hockey, as you mentioned, he coached at the NCAA division one level, Michigan Tech, and Ferris State.

Jamie:

And Lake Superior, if I'm not mistaken. Does that sound right?

Scott:

I'm not sure about Lake Superior,

Bob:

but could

Scott:

could could have involvement there. He was also a head coach and general manager of the of the OHL, the Ontario Hockey League, Saginaw Spirit. And he worked and you mentioned worked in player development for the Edmonton Oilers.

Bob:

Yeah.

Scott:

So he has, you know, in The United States, in Canada, professional, youth. Like, he has, like, been there, done that, and is just, you know, such a important part of what USA hockey has become. So it was, it was excellent to have the opportunity to talk to him.

Jamie:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking at his bio right now from from '85. He was at Lake Superior, then Ferris State for about seven years, then Michigan Tech for four. He spent ten years coaching college hockey.

Scott:

Yeah. You

Jamie:

know? I mean, he's got an impressive resume. I mean

Scott:

Absolutely.

Jamie:

I mean and then he went to the US men's national development program, and then to the Edmonton Oilers for four, then you said Saginaw Spirit, back to the Edmonton Oilers for a couple. Overseas, he's coaching South Africa, assistant coach and head coach. Yeah. No. He's been he's had a career.

Jamie:

I mean

Scott:

Yeah. So we get into a lot of great topics with him, which, which helps shed some light on some, you know, I I think things that, you know, for a lot of us maybe don't make sense at on the surface for those of

Bob:

us Yes.

Scott:

That, you know, like, are getting our kids into hockey, and, you know, we'll touch upon that in the interview. But I thought there were some really interesting points as to, like, why why is there why is there no tag up offsides

Jamie:

for, That like, the younger age was an awesome part of the of the interview. Like because because I know the conversation that we always have is what the fuck? Why why is why they call offsides like this? Why they call offsides like this? Right?

Scott:

Yeah.

Jamie:

I mean and when he lays it out, it makes perfect sense. Right?

Scott:

Totally.

Jamie:

If you look at the players that are out there today, you're going, oh, I get it

Scott:

now. Right. Right? And and I I think one of the things that were not one maybe the most eye opening thing for me, and it makes a lot of sense when you hear them talk about it, was, you know, some of the decisions that they make or maybe many of them. For someone that played hockey as, like, let's say, first generation hockey player.

Scott:

Like, my parents didn't play hockey. I played hockey. And so I know what I know from back in the nineties, the eighties. Right? But now when you see kids playing hockey, the cross ice games, the small area games, you know, that's not what that's not what hockey looks like to me or you.

Scott:

Right? Yes. But it really is meant strictly for the development of the younger players and Long ways a 100% like the Yeah. Like the long term athletic development. And Yeah.

Scott:

Just because it doesn't look like what we're used to

Jamie:

Doesn't mean it's not working.

Scott:

No. I think a lot of us assume, like, there's something wrong with it because it's not what we're used to seeing. But the the why behind a bunch of this is what helps us under at least me understand, like, why they're doing certain things, and and it makes a lot of sense.

Jamie:

It all made sense when he started explaining, you know, when he had questions and he started, I mean, and the part about body checking, about why they start body checking at a certain age, he, because when you and I talked about it, then we talked to the parents, we're going, why are they waiting until puberty when all of a sudden some kids are huge and some kids are, you know, haven't had puberty yet. And then he goes and they actually went and spoke to doctors and looked at, you know, the size difference in players at certain age ranges, right, to try to figure out what, and the reason why, and I'm not, I don't want give it away, but the reason why they moved body checking back a couple years is actually pretty impressive. I don't want to give it away, because I want you guys to go listen to the interview. But again, when he when he explains it, you go, Oh, I get it now. Yeah.

Scott:

So yeah. So, you know alright. So there's obviously a lot to get to in here. The interview is quite you know, it's it's lengthy. Yeah.

Scott:

But

Bob:

we could have

Jamie:

gone for another three hours with him, by the way.

Scott:

No doubt.

Jamie:

We're gonna have to have him back on for a part two, three, four, five, ten, twelve.

Scott:

Yeah. But before we get there, let's talk a little recap from the weekend. Any you know, so last time we recorded, Dom had just moved to defense. So you're on weekend number two of defense. Yeah.

Scott:

How's that going?

Jamie:

So good. We had we had a doubleheader Saturday, and we had a game Sunday. So we had three games on on just d. And I I can't say just d. He's playing d when on a power play, he moves to the left wing.

Scott:

Okay.

Jamie:

Okay? But for the most part, we're playing d on five on five. Gotcha. Okay. So he would tell you that games one and two were very good.

Jamie:

He made he would tell you that three started out well and he kind of fell off a little bit. But overall, you know, successful, I would say.

Scott:

Awesome.

Jamie:

Yeah, he doesn't say that he hates it. So that's positive.

Scott:

But that's where it started.

Jamie:

That is where it started. Yes. Yes. On our last episode, we were talking about how Dominic was not happy about it. Right.

Scott:

Is he? So what are the what are some of the things that he's kind of come to realize that is making it either more enjoyable, interesting, fun, all the above?

Jamie:

So I think he's he realized now that he can join the rush. Right? They wanted to be an offensive type of defenseman. So he he is joining the rush. He is pushing the hockey puck.

Jamie:

And when he's making a pass to break out, he's then sprinting forward

Scott:

to join. Play.

Jamie:

Yeah. You know? So he realizes and he's and he's he's he's scored in all three games. You know, so he From realizes that

Scott:

a five on five play or

Jamie:

Yeah. Five on five. Yeah.

Scott:

Oh, great.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Scott:

Great.

Jamie:

Yeah. So he's realizing that he can he can still put points up because that's what he likes to do. Right? So he he's been doing he was doing that. So, that part, he I think he's realizing that he can still score from back there.

Jamie:

Right? He doesn't he's not like a stay at home demon. Right? And I think our coach puts him with kids that are stay at home D men, so Dominic can kind of So there's coverage. Right, exactly.

Jamie:

So I think that part he's starting to realize, Oh, this is not so bad. And, you know, he always said, like, he likes hitting. He likes, you know, it's funny. I You

Scott:

sent some some serious clips.

Jamie:

He had two on Saturday, one in the first game, one in the second game that were eye opening hits. Right?

Scott:

That that one at, like, kinda center ice when he kinda came across. Look. Did he get penalized for that? I mean, based on the way we discussed and the way that, like, I guess,

Jamie:

you Shoulder guys have been taught on shoulder.

Scott:

I know, but his stick he did make a play for the puck.

Jamie:

He did. Hug yourself. Not even a little bit.

Scott:

No. He just leveled the kid. His stick wasn't even on the ice.

Jamie:

So if you actually saw it, it it the you don't the video's on Dominic's Instagram, but Yeah. Which I think Didn't

Scott:

we repost it on ours?

Jamie:

I think it's on I think Crazy Hockey Dads reposted it. Yeah. Exactly. So I'm not sure if it's still there. It was under the story.

Jamie:

It may not be there anymore. Oh, should

Scott:

get it posted

Jamie:

like That's That's But, but if you see the beginning of the play, he actually pushes the puck down deep as a defenseman. The winger comes up to cover, and then he takes the puck in, like, almost like the left wing spot, Okay as a defenseman, and he cut tries to curl around toward the middle to get a shot off, and the puck gets kind of knocked away from him. Okay And I think that he got aggravated that the puck got poked away from him. So you see him kind of back skating and kind of curls around and all of a sudden he gets. He's he's curling closer and closer to the kid carrying the puck up the ice, and then he just kind of lays the shoulder into him.

Jamie:

100% right didn't make a play for the puck. USA hockey would probably frown upon that because they say if you don't make a play for the puck, that it's technically a penalty. Yeah. But it looked good.

Scott:

It looks right.

Bob:

It did look right.

Jamie:

It did look right. So yeah,

Scott:

go ahead.

Jamie:

No, no, no. And he had one on on on that morning, which, he kind of took the kid off his feet. That one, he had his his arms too far extended that when he got penalized for.

Scott:

Okay. Well, he's learning. Yeah. But so the type of physicality that you've seen so far with him on defense, is it Yeah. Similar to what he was doing on offense, or is this like a a like an upgrade not upgraded, but, like, is is it

Jamie:

It looks like an up it feels like an upgrade.

Scott:

Know? Like, a little more intense, a little more

Jamie:

Yeah. He's it's almost like he's in a better position back there to to do it Yeah. If that makes sense. Sure. But yeah.

Jamie:

So I don't know. But he's getting more it feels like he's getting more physical from the defensive spot than he was from the from the winger spot.

Scott:

That's awesome.

Jamie:

Yeah. So

Scott:

You know, just to continue to learn and then to get grow that part of his game.

Jamie:

Yeah. Listen. I get I like him being uncomfortable. We talk about our kids doing hard things and being uncomfortable. Right?

Jamie:

I like him being uncomfortable. Yeah. So I don't have a problem with it, dude. I gotta tell you.

Scott:

Awesome. Yeah. That's great.

Bob:

Far, so good.

Scott:

The team made out well over the weekend?

Jamie:

We won, eight one or seven one in the morning Saturday. I think we won eight nothing or seven nothing in the Saturday afternoon game. And then we played a, like, a non league game sun Sunday and won, like, six one or something like that.

Scott:

Oh, Jesus.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Scott:

That was a monster weekend.

Jamie:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like a whole really competitive weekend, but Okay. But I will say this, and I think I told you this, not that this coming weekend, have a competitive game.

Jamie:

And then the following weekend, we have really competitive games. That's where we're actually heading down to the Philly area to where our buddy Vinny Moltz interview coming soon.

Scott:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jamie:

It's kind of where he's from. So, yeah, that showcase in a couple of weeks should be that that that's gonna like a

Scott:

his first real test?

Jamie:

Heavy duty weekend. Yeah.

Scott:

Right.

Jamie:

Yeah. That's gonna be all four games are really solid. So

Scott:

That's awesome.

Jamie:

Yeah. We'll see, man.

Scott:

So Good, dude.

Jamie:

Yeah. What about you? Your guy was, a little under the weather.

Scott:

Yep. Flu.

Jamie:

That's a

Scott:

drop with the flu. So we didn't have any games on Saturday. Right. So that was the you know, we weren't at the rink anyway, but then Sunday, Saturday night, he started to not feel great.

Jamie:

Right.

Scott:

And then Sunday morning, fever, kept him home.

Jamie:

It's always fun.

Scott:

Took him to urgent care yesterday, and he's home from school yesterday and today.

Bob:

Right.

Scott:

So, yeah, he's but he I he's feeling better, which is a good sign. Good. But, yeah, no. Fluke didn't play this weekend. So

Jamie:

Right. Hopefully, he plays this weekend. Right?

Scott:

You know, I have to say, like, I feel like this season, like, we were away in the very beginning for the first two games of the first showcase, but

Jamie:

Mhmm.

Scott:

He's missed, like, I think, like, five games now.

Jamie:

Well, he had, a knee thing. Right?

Scott:

He had a yeah. He he knee flu. Right. Yeah. And there was, one other one.

Scott:

I don't know. It's I just don't remember him missing so many games.

Jamie:

Right. Right. Alright. Listen.

Scott:

Whatever.

Jamie:

It happens.

Scott:

Yeah. Listen. I'm not I'm not complaining. I'm just reflecting, I guess. Anyhow.

Scott:

Yeah. So but their team, they so they went down to Lehigh Valley. They played the the the game that we had played in our last showcase where the one coach or the coach from Lehigh Valley was just, like, next level.

Jamie:

Like Out of his mind?

Scott:

Out of his mind. Like so they went down to play them.

Jamie:

Oh, so maybe it's a good thing you missed it.

Scott:

No. I'm not saying that. All I'm saying but they so we kinda blew them out of the water the first game. And then as Ada and I were watching, we we won in overtime.

Jamie:

Okay.

Scott:

So it was a much closer game, but there was definitely some back and forth between the coaches. You could hear it on Live Barn.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Scott:

You know? And it's just yeah. Some some people just don't get it.

Jamie:

No. Unfortunately. Alright. Listen. Anyhow.

Jamie:

It happens.

Scott:

Yeah. So that was it. Yeah. You know? And now, hopefully, he'll be back on the ice.

Scott:

He's he didn't go to practice Monday night. They're off tonight. Hopefully, he'll be back tomorrow night and then get after. We have our we have a showcase this weekend

Bob:

coming up. Where?

Scott:

Yeah. Where are supposed

Bob:

to be?

Scott:

Pennsylvania somewhere. Hershey? No.

Jamie:

No. Gotcha. Gotcha.

Scott:

I forget exactly where. But they got four games this coming weekend, so he should hopefully be good to go for that. And

Jamie:

Okay. Good.

Scott:

Yeah, man.

Jamie:

Alright. Nice, dude. I like it. Great. Totally.

Jamie:

Alright.

Scott:

So I'm

Bob:

trying to

Scott:

get guess that's kind of it on the on the Okay. Catch up side of things. But

Jamie:

Alright.

Scott:

We should probably kick it over to an interview with Bob since it's a little on the longer side.

Jamie:

Yeah. It is long. But it's so worth it.

Scott:

Yeah. No. A 100%. No. Not complaining.

Scott:

I'm just saying

Jamie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Scott:

No. To save save airspace.

Bob:

Yep. Yep. No. I agree.

Scott:

Alright. Cool. So, yeah. Let's kick it over to our interview with Bob Mancini. Hope you all enjoy it, and I'll see you on the other side.

Jamie:

Yep. Enjoy everybody. Alright. So we are here with Bob Mancini, the assistant executive director of hockey development for USA Hockey. Bob, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on with us.

Jamie:

Really appreciate it.

Bob:

Yeah. Thank you, Jamie. Scott, a pleasure to be here. I was looking forward to it.

Jamie:

Now, I didn't know that you were a Long Island guy until I looked up your bio. So you're we're in New Jersey, North Jersey. So you're not far from us at all.

Bob:

No, I already love the accents and, you know, depending how long we go, I might fall right back into it. Right. I spent three days back home and boom, I'm, I'm right there. So yeah, grew up on Long Island, eighteen years, went to high school, left after high school to play junior hockey in Minnesota, but, I still have a bunch of family back home in New York and on Long Island.

Scott:

Well, so I think everyone needs to know Islanders or rangers

Jamie:

or devils.

Bob:

Okay. So, so I'm old, so grew up on the island and until 1972, my dad and I were ranger fans.

Scott:

Okay.

Bob:

1972. Of course the Islanders move eight miles from my house. And at that time, you know, before cable TV and everything, the only games you could get was Ranger games on TV. We couldn't get in the city. You couldn't get tickets, whole bit instant Islander fan because availability of tickets and eight miles away.

Scott:

Perfect

Bob:

Islander fan through and through never wavered. And then three years ago, my son gets drafted by the New York Rangers. So instantly back to a ranger fan. Right. And, then, then a year or so, just under a year, the rangers, he gets traded to the Vancouver Canucks.

Bob:

So, I have yet to, I have yet to revisit the Island reverse ranger question.

Scott:

Well, those aisles have something to be excited about this season. Boy. Wow. That Schaefer is something.

Jamie:

He

Bob:

is. Yes. Yes. He's a very, very good play. Fun to watch.

Scott:

Yeah. There's so much like I I don't know. I I I got disconnected from the game after I stopped playing after, like, high school. I didn't play in college, and they got reconnected so many years later. And there's just just the you know, I'm sure we'll touch upon this at some point, but just how young the league has become and just like the skill level, it's just some of it is so mind bending to see what these guys can do.

Scott:

But in any event, I'm sure we'll get to some of that in the in the conversation. But, yeah, you know, I know one of the things that Jamie and I have talked about a whole bunch is just kind of like the the landscape of of hockey in The United States, you know, and with that comes like a few different things. You know, I think, you know, for us, you know, we've seen the introduction of like private equity come in and like, you know, you know, Black Bear is someone that's, you know, really impacting our area. You know, the from a tier one levels, you've got tier like triple A elite and like kind of like that domino effect of what happens when now there's yet like seemingly another tier, you know, just parents chasing letters and the idea of like watered down hockey, you know, and and just, you know, your take on kind of like what you're seeing out there broadly, because we're just, know, we're very focused on the Northeast. We're in Bergen County, New Jersey, Northern Jersey, but that's a small sliver of the whole landscape.

Scott:

Just kind of like curious on your take on on the landscape of hockey in The United States nowadays.

Bob:

I think it's healthier than it's ever been. But you bring up a really good point, right? So we talk all the time about tier one and what we call the elite level. And that could be another argument. What really is the elite level and how big is the elite level?

Bob:

But when you look at the landscape of hockey in The United States, and you look at what USA hockey does, 5% of what we do is grassroots hockey, right? It's tier two hockey and below it's rec hockey. It's house hockey. It's whatever you might call it. Right?

Bob:

Like these, you know, the, the country's so big. Every one of our 34 affiliates call that tier two level and below something different, but it's healthier than it's ever been. Right. I think we now are going into our fourteenth or fifteenth year with over a 100,008 and under players registered with USA hockey. Right?

Bob:

So our grassroots programming, the players, the parents, the administrators, the coaches, the officials who love and have passion for youth hockey, it's stronger than it's ever been. But, you know, it's interesting to listen to your question and, and, you know, mention some of those things about private equity and tier one and chasing letters. It's the same old story as with everything, right? 90% of the conversation is about 10% of what we do. Right.

Bob:

Because the rest of it is taken care of itself. And there's a lot of similarities and a lot of, things we have to draw correlation to, but, know, to just answer the question about where it is, USA hockey is as healthy as it's ever been. Of course, every youth sport, every national governing body has challenges that they're constantly battling, but we're really happy with where we are. You mentioned it earlier. Our players are more skilled than ever.

Bob:

We have more players than ever before. Our girls game is growing. We've had two straight years of our official. Our numbers of officials have grown. So, you know, when you look at the big picture, it's wonderful.

Bob:

Right? We are, we, the three of us and everybody listening, we're involved in the greatest sport on earth and the greatest thing we can have our kids be a part of. So

Jamie:

yeah, it's it's it's in a wonderful place right now. So it's interesting, you know, we we it's funny because I had this question kind of queued up. I know that the registration for youth hockey in The United States has been climbing over the last couple of years. I'm curious, what do you think that's attributed to? Do you think that's attributed to the ADM model that's kind of come along after a couple of years?

Jamie:

Or what you guys kind of see that kind of growth has come from? And I'm curious how that compares to say overseas, Finland, Norway, Canada, you see, you know, between The USA and the rest of the world.

Bob:

Yeah. So that's, so first of all, yes, the American development model does have a lot to do with it because the ADM has, has kind of allowed us at USA hockey to help educate, help inform parents, coaches of what's good for kids. Like what's important for kids. And that has helped us retain players at a rate greater than you've ever seen before. When you look at 2003, 2009, when we launched the ATM, our retention rate for nine to 12 year old was less than 40%.

Bob:

Right now our retention is over 90% at that same age category. So the introduction of the ADM has been huge in calming down the environment. One of the phrases I like to use is help people give youth hockey back to kids. Pull it back from that adult. It's all about the adults and give it back to kids.

Bob:

So the ATM absolutely has something to do with it. The number of grassroot volunteers, the passion of our volunteers, because we still are a volunteer based organization. Right? We have just over a 100 full time employees here in Plymouth. But really the drivers of what we do are our volunteers, our boots on the ground, grassroots volunteers, and that's been stronger than ever before.

Bob:

Then let's look at the NHL investment in The United States, right? You look at, you know, ever since 1967, the addition of teams in The Us, one of the things that drives growth is the fact that there is no such thing as a non traditional area anymore. If you go back ten, fifteen, twenty years, right? We used to talk about, oh wow. Here's a player out of Vegas, nontraditional areas.

Bob:

Here's a player out of Nashville. Here's a player out of Florida, Florida. Yeah. Right. The fact is now there was no more nontraditional hockey area in The United States.

Bob:

We are seeing growth everywhere. In fact, in some areas we're seeing more growth than our traditional and that's become a little worrisome. So if you look at California, California has more used players than Michigan. Think about that for a second. Wow.

Bob:

Right. So, you know, now Michigan's numbers are steadily trying to, or steadily increasing now, which is a good thing, but that's what that growth has done. So that helped ADM, NHL in what used to be non traditional markets and the proliferation of of rinks and opportunities for kids. I think all of those things happen and then look at you guys. I don't know what your parents like.

Bob:

Are you first generation or second generation hockey players? I'm a first generation hockey player.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

You know, so that's beginning to happen now. Our kids are in the sport and then our kids, kids will be in the sport. So all those things are making huge gains for USA hockey.

Jamie:

Yeah. I didn't play at all. I didn't play ice hockey at all,

Bob:

but your kids are

Jamie:

for my kids. Go figure. Right. Right. And I'm curious, how do we compare Bob to say overseas?

Jamie:

How do, how do our registration numbers compare to overseas?

Bob:

So, so that's interesting. Before I go on though, want to tell Scott something you and I talked about on the phone and it's good for our listeners. Jamie called me today. He was worried about questions And I was going to say, you know, with my answers, you guys might have two more questions. We'll be done with the hour.

Bob:

Right? That's all we're going to have. No, it's a, the second part of your questions are really good one. Our numbers have been steadily increasing for the last thirteen to fourteen years. Hannity's numbers in that same timeframe are decreasing.

Bob:

I read that. Okay. And, and not only is it decreasing at the youth level while our numbers increase. If you look at the percentage of players that are being provided to the national hockey league, Canada's numbers have steadily decreased over that time. Our numbers have steadily increased.

Bob:

Now Europe is a little different because the numbers are usually fairly stagnant. When you look at Finland, Sweden, there's some, you know, up years, down years, everything else, but their population base has stayed fairly consistent. So their numbers have stayed fairly, fairly consistent. Right now Sweden is running into a little, you know, like it's interesting over on this side of the ocean. Tennis is having a big issue right now because so many people are playing pickleball.

Bob:

I was

Jamie:

just going to say pickleball's tearing into it.

Bob:

Yes. Right. We don't have the threat of floor ball like Sweden has. Right? So you look at floor ball, which is a cheaper, easier entry.

Bob:

You don't need a rink. You can play anywhere, play in a gym, play outside, you know, whatever floor ball is beginning to cut into their numbers of beginning hockey players. So, you know, but overall, I would say those numbers in Sweden or Finland at the grassroots level are staying fairly consistent. You have a lot of developing M and A's throughout the world whose numbers are increasing though, right? Some of the smaller M and A's and developing M and A's, you know, you have places that are playing hockey that we never thought would play hockey, right?

Bob:

Australia, New Zealand, Slovakia's numbers are going up, right? Swiss. Now their numbers over the last decade have steadily improved. So the IIHF is doing a really good job of growing hockey around the world, but our fight against that hockey playing country to New York, to the north, is, you know, they are friendly rival of ours, but we're very, very proud of our numbers in the direction in which our sport is going.

Scott:

Yeah. No, that's a you know, I had my daughter recently do a learn to play Rangers program and just the, you know, the ease with which know, for to get her on the ice, you know, to get her equipment. I mean, we had some hand me down stuff, but that was like, you know, the cost was, you know, completely reasonable. She got on the ice. You know, she prefers to figure do figure skating type activities as opposed to hockey, fine by me.

Scott:

But like we were able to give her the opportunity without making a commitment, you know, to like a team or a league or whatever the case was. And she was able to try it. And and that was and that was great. And to your point, I got out on the ice and helped out there. And so, you know, I knew some of the volunteers and it was it was a really good experience.

Scott:

And, you know, you go on the calendar, you know, and you see how often they have these learn to plays. And so, you know, every that, you know, that that certainly correlates to kind of like what you're saying. And it makes sense that there's a lot of accessibility for all these young kids, which is fantastic.

Bob:

Yeah. And we have a great relationship with our NHL partners.

Scott:

Right?

Bob:

And the rangers, I happen to be very familiar with the rangers learn to learn to skate, learn to play program, and they do a great job and that programming, in conjunction USA hockey and the NHL that's happening in. I'm going to say in almost every market in The U S but it might be every market. Just didn't want to be careful here that I'm not, you know, saying any wrong information, but sure. It's a fantastic partnership between the NHL and USA hockey.

Scott:

Yeah. Oh, James, go ahead.

Jamie:

No, no. I so I was, I know you're a big proponent of the ADM model Bob and I want you to so I guess my question is two part. What was before the ADM model that you guys obviously were not happy with? You said we need to come up with something else. Okay.

Jamie:

And I want you to explain to our listeners why the ADM model is so good and, and kind of if you can weave in that pond hockey tournament that you guys had in Wisconsin, where you had the three ten by 130 foot rink? Because I think that is very, very telling as to why small area games are probably the way to go up to a certain age. And our younger parents who have young kids in the game probably don't know what you're going to say right now, but I have a feeling it's going to resonate with them.

Bob:

So let me, lot there. I think three, three Sorry. That's good. No, that's good. And, and, so let's start with when the, ADM was introduced.

Bob:

So this is back pre 2009, Kenny Martell, who is now our senior director of player and coach development is a brilliant guy and a great hockey man. He was one of the people who recognized the fact that even though USA hockey numbers were growing, we were Louis losing membership in the youth level. We say youth, which is boys and girls. Then we also have girls hockey, but it was mostly on the boys side. We were losing membership, but the company didn't realize we were losing membership in youth hockey, in those critical youth hockey numbers, because we were still growing adult was growing, girls was growing and no one was making that correlation.

Bob:

So Kenny was one of the, one of the couple of people in the company that said, wait a second, there's something deeper going on here. We need to take a look at. And that was that idea of, we were not increasing growth, new growth in our boys, youth players, we were not retaining them. So then it was, well, how do we do that? Right.

Bob:

And part of it is turning youth sports back over to youth. Well, what does that mean? That means developing passion first. That means making sure kids have fun, making sure they're engaged. Now talking to the parents, making sure the parents understand how we define fun, right?

Bob:

Because parents spending all this money to have their child in hockey. And especially the guys, the women are like, yeah, I want my kid to have fun. They understand elementary school teachers and moms understand, bring our child to a sport. Number one thing, make sure they enjoy it. Right.

Bob:

The men like ourselves really well, you know, that's my four year old. He'll be in the NH. Probably gonna go to Ranger training camp next week. You know, this is how we look at things. Right.

Bob:

So we had to change the way we looked at youth hockey. And through research, we realized that this idea of long term athlete development that starts by doing age appropriate training at the youngest ages is the way to make sure that we keep kids in the game. Right. So it's not enough just to have new growth, but we have to have good retention. And that is really through the ADM model.

Bob:

Now there's also, we make better players, right? They're more skilled. They have better technical ability. They're more aware on the ice. All of that comes in time, but over an age appropriate model of development, which is long term athlete development.

Bob:

Where too many people get it wrong is they talk about, Oh, well, Oh yeah, I was in the ADM at eight and under, or my kids in the ADM program, or Oh yeah, we did the ADM last year. Now my kid's nine years old. And what I like to talk about a lot is what people don't realize is the American development model is a model of development for players from eight U to 18. Yeah. And it looks very different at every one of those ages.

Bob:

So it's not just cross ice hockey. It's not just half ice hockey. It's not just small area games. It's not just station based practices, right? It's this model of development, a pathway of development that grows as the player grows, but it starts at the very youngest ages with instilling the love of the game to the player and passion.

Bob:

It also starts with athleticism. It starts with, movement skills, right? USA hockey was the first NGB to come out and say, we want every kid to play hockey, but you know what? We also want your kid to play baseball and soccer, and we want them to be a well rounded athlete. And this is what sometimes our environment gets wrong.

Bob:

Cause you mentioned our young players, Scott, I think you mentioned four and five years old ice hockey is an early introduction sport. It's not early specialization. Right. And that is a big, big difference. Yeah.

Bob:

If we introduce your child to hockey at four or five years old, and they begin to get comfortable on their skates and they play hockey in the winter and baseball in the spring and soccer in the summer, and they do this and they, they should have the, the, they go through the period of sports sampling. Long as we introduce them to hockey and we do all the right things during the hockey season. And that hockey season grows with the players. It might only be six months at six, and then seven months at nine, and then eight, nine months at 10, 11, it grows with the player. If we do all that and we do it right, when a player hits puberty, now he can begin to specialize.

Bob:

We still want that player to play two sports. There's still a primary sport and a secondary sport, you know, around puberty, but that overall athleticism, that idea of multi sport, a multi sport athlete becoming a great hockey player. That's true.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right. I mean, the study we did with our past two Olympic team past three Olympic teams and every year with our national team development program, I want to say the number is eighty seven percent of those athletes were multi sport athletes into high school. Right. And that's the piece that is lost a little bit. Right.

Scott:

Can I ask you a quick, quick question? Because this is something that's come up for me personally with respect to my own son. But when we talk about multi sport athletes, when, when I first started hearing that in my mind, like, and you've mentioned sports such as, you know, basketball, baseball, like those team based sports. Right. But does it there's two things.

Bob:

Number

Scott:

one, a sport like, let's say mountain biking or rock climbing. Curious if you'd consider those sports that also like fall into that category, number one. And number two, what does it mean to be a multi sport athlete? And my, what do I mean by that is like, let's just take, I don't know, football, for example. Maybe that's a bad one, but let's or basketball.

Scott:

Like is going to the the local, like, you know, the rec basketball courts and shooting hoops when playing pickup with my my, you know, my my having my kid do that with his buddies, you know, a couple hours on a weekend. Does that make him a multi sport athlete or is it really he should be on a team and he's going to practices and being in that team dynamic?

Bob:

So, unbelievable questions. It's so interesting. Cause I had a little smirk on my face, right? Yeah. So yeah, riding your bike in the summer, right?

Bob:

Running up and down stairs, playing tag, chasing your friends, you know, those dumb games you make up in your backyard. Right? Totally. And we've all had this experience, especially, you know, you know, I was that dumb parent, right. I, we, my wife and I had the one, one child go in the backyard and, you know, okay, we're going to kick the soccer ball around.

Bob:

And I bring the soccer ball and in three minutes we're back in the garage, getting the baseball and then five minutes. Right. So then I figured out, okay, Hey, Victor, let's go in the backyard and play. And we go in the garage and we get everything we could. And I just bought it in the backyard.

Bob:

Right. Because who knew, right. It's like, it's like the ADA, what is it? The AHD, ADHD Olympics. Right.

Bob:

That's what it is. And right. Cause you've been there, you've been there. So, so first of all, multi sport athleticism really is everything that we're doing over and above just concentrating on one sport. And there's a number of reasons for that.

Bob:

Right? We want that athleticism, but you know, we've never said just playing hockey is a bad thing. Playing hockey year round, you know, at some point, that's not a bad thing. Taking a month or two off only is not a bad thing. Sometimes the worst thing we can do is year round coaching.

Bob:

So the reason I'm bringing that up is you talk about, does it have to be, structured based

Scott:

teams, No,

Bob:

but that's the problem our society has. Cause you know what? Almost too much structure, right? If you don't know enough about long term athlete development, if you don't know enough about the sports sampling phase, about age appropriate training, you bring your kid to baseball and the baseball coach wants you all year long. Want your kid all year long.

Bob:

Right. We live in Michigan. You know, I lived in Michigan. They won January baseball practices in norms. Right.

Bob:

We're not given the opportunity to say no in this season. My son or daughter is a hockey player. And in this season, they're a baseball or softball player. And in this season, they're going to play soccer because what happens is every youth sport hockey included, get the child and then they want to keep that child year round. And that's not what we're looking for at the youngest of ages.

Bob:

Right. But the journey, Jamie, that you mentioned, it's true. Right? So we go through a young sports sampling phase where you want your child to try as many different sports as they can, but you also want them to try something on land, in air, on water, on snow, in water, on snow. You want them in all those different mediums.

Bob:

Of course, the phrase is going to slip out of my mind now, but we want them to be able to move in all those different mediums. Right. That's important. So two, three sports through, you know, sampling, then three sports, then all of a sudden puberty hits and there can be a primary sport and a secondary sport, but you even want to hold on to that for as long as possible. And Scott, I thought you were going to go and maybe you did a little bit because this is a question I always get.

Bob:

What sport should I make my kid play to make them a better hockey player? And I listened to that. And the key is when they say, what should I have them play? Or what should I make them play? And that's the problem.

Bob:

Right? Cause the answer is how about you let them choose,

Scott:

right? Whatever they love, whatever they want, whatever they're into. What they should

Bob:

do. Right. A 100%. Right. And I don't think we talk about that enough.

Bob:

Right. Okay. So then they say, well, what's best tennis. Right. Well, tennis is great.

Bob:

Going to work on certain movements, lateral movements, stop starting, but baseball hand eye coordination, team sport, pressure filled situations, right? Soccer awareness, right? Any, any sport that has a net to defend and a net to attack. Right. You're working on transition and offense and defense and space.

Bob:

Right. So every single sport bike riding, mountain biking, right. We can find correlations to anything our kids do as long as they pick something they want to do when they love it.

Jamie:

Totally. Because they're doing something.

Scott:

That's my son. He's he's my, he loves to mountain bike. Like that's, that's kind of like his other sport. In the beginning, like I played hockey lacrosse, you know, and, and when I was playing hockey and lacrosse, they weren't big time sports here in Jersey. And I just happened to have a buddy that played lacrosse and I just happened to love hockey.

Scott:

And those two just came together and the seasons worked out and that was great. You know, but in the beginning I was like, alright, dude, spring lacrosse, let's go. You know, and he tried it. He didn't love it. And then he loves to ride his bike.

Scott:

So I'm like, dude, you know what? You do that. You, you do the bike riding. So no, it's

Bob:

Especially a at a young age when our kids want to play hockey, right? We have to be careful. Right? So, so I'll tell you a story. I did not let my son play spring or summer hockey until he was 13 years old.

Bob:

However, his buddies who we never got to play with in town would play three on three on Saturdays at the local rink. No coaching just play three on three that I would let him do all day long. Sure.

Jamie:

Right. Scott and I talk about that three on three, no, no structures. Let them

Bob:

go have fun. You know, and then I go back to sometimes the word, the, the, the thing that's bad for our athletes is not too much hockey. It's too much coaching. It's too much structure. Yeah.

Bob:

Right. You know? And yeah. So it all, all of those things, Jamie, when you ask those questions, they all come together, right? They're all interrelated in what is the best things that we can do for our kids as kids?

Bob:

Right. It's, it's the same thing, you know, like I had one parent I'll never forget this. I was at rank in Michigan, seven years old, 5AM skating classes. Cause my seven year old really wants to get, you know, this parent told me, yeah, my, my kid, my kid wants to do this really. There's not seven year old in the world is setting up his own 5AM skating lesson.

Bob:

Right.

Scott:

I was just gonna so there's I've seen some and talked to you as we all have, like, really crazy hockey parents who, like, completely overdo it with the number of hours on the ice for young kids private lessons begin before practice, before school. And, you know, I asked with dad, he's like, yeah, but he loves to do it like he wants it. And I said, but, you know, if your kid wanted to eat peanut butter cups for breakfast, like, you know, would you let him do that too? It doesn't mean it's good for him. Like, have to protect the kids from themselves as well.

Scott:

That's part of the parenting journey. So, like to your point, I mean, like, yeah, and and one thing, you know, we talk about a lot with respect to this topic and kind of like the overdoing it at the young ages because, you know, let's just, you know, we both our kids played tier one. Now they're both playing tier two. And more so with the tier one kids, especially those that have aspirations of playing, you know, I look at my hockey rankings, want to be on a top 20 team at like, you know, for squirts or peweeze, whatever the deal is, you know, and you see these parents just like driving their kids, you know, multiple hours to practice and you know, you hear more about the success stories and you, we live in this like highlight reel world with social media, etc. And I'm not asking for like a specific story or per se, but like maybe even like anecdotally, the idea of burnout.

Scott:

Like I'm sure you've come across it with families that might have had kids that have overdone it. Just could you maybe like touch upon the idea of burnout and maybe some things that parents should like potentially look out for? Because I know there's a lot of them out there that they're seeing kids achieve great success at the young ages. And it's only because like Johnny figured it out first or Johnny grew before Timmy. Right.

Scott:

And putting in more time, effort, energy isn't going to necessarily close that gap. And you're going to see, you know, you put in more reps, you're going to see growth and skill development, but like at what cost? Right. So, I'm just curious about your thoughts on the idea of burnout and even if you had a good story to tell about it.

Bob:

Well, do. But, you know, one of the things is, is we always say the best player at eight and under is seldom the best player at 18. Right now, Connor McDavid might be the, the, you know, there are exceptions. Yeah. You're right about the success stories.

Bob:

That's what we hear. You know, And, I, I can tell you, I do, I do have stories, but, but I'm gonna throw it back on you guys. Right? Cause you just talked about your kids in their journey through tier one and now at tier two and where they're at. I want any parent that's listening to this who maybe has an older child and a younger child, because the number one thing I hear about from parents who have more than one child in the system is, oh my gosh, I wish the ADM was around when my older child went through the system.

Bob:

That's what we heard all the time at the beginning, because those parents saw burnout and they saw the difference in development because development is not linear. Right?

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

We know that the other thing we know about development is before puberty, the kids that takes seasonal time off will come back and be behind the kid that has skated all summer, right. For about four weeks.

Scott:

Then they

Bob:

catch that's development. That's how learning happens at a young age. Right? Right. A nine year old is on the ice more than another nine year old when they'd come back for the season.

Bob:

The nine that was on more will be ahead of the nine that was off, but that nine that was off will catch up quickly because that's at the age they are, that is what happens. Right. We know that path and development, right? This whole idea, so think about, and I'm saying this to all the listeners, think about the kid who was the best player at seven or eight. Are those the best players now at 14, 15, 16, and 17?

Bob:

Pre puberty, puberty, and after puberty, post pubescent kids, right? You know, puberty changes everything. First of all, what do you see at the youngest ages? The kids who are, have the lowest center of gravity to the ice are your best skaters and are your best players. Then puberty hits and everything changes.

Bob:

All bets are off limb length changes. Your stride changes. The way you learn changes. Your lovely game changes. What, what is important in hockey changes?

Bob:

Right? We see this all the time. Why are some programs so great at young ages and then don't have the success they have. Right. Because if we put all our time and resources into a small amount of players, right.

Bob:

We're not developing the entire organization for the greater good. And I always say the, that's the beauty of one of the other beauties about the ADM, because the ADM doesn't say at a young age, we're going to put all our resources into these three really good players and ignore everybody else. What we're going to say is those three really good players. They still need to be coached and directed and the right things so they can continue to be good. Those kids who are maybe late developers, they're bigger, they're clumsier.

Bob:

Those kids need to do the right thing because their development's going to come after puberty. So it's not, oh, let's just focus on the late developers. And it certainly is not just focused on the young develop, the early developers, but rather what is our entire system developed and what are we going to look at? Right. What's important at that age, that every single player, because one of the greatest things, I think the quote of the ATM was, the, the idea is that we wanna make every boy or girl fulfill their own potential.

Bob:

We don't know what that is. Nature and nurture. Right. I used to joke all the time, right? If you're the son or daughter of two world class ultra marathoners chances are you are not going to have the body type of the DNA to be a hockey player.

Bob:

Right? Right. You can be good. And here's the key. I'm not saying that kid shouldn't play hockey.

Bob:

And I'm not saying that kid might not make it to a very high level, but we have to take responsible then to do the right thing for that child to fulfill his or her potential.

Scott:

Yes.

Bob:

Right. And, and that's the key to everything we do. It's it's. It's meeting the player at the age, which they had. So I'll tell you a funny story.

Bob:

And I didn't give you a story about players that have fallen off the map because everyone has them. If you step back and look at them, but you're right, Scott, because you mentioned, I think you mentioned about the success stories. Everybody wants a point to the guy in the stands whose son has made it and says, let's go ask him what he did. Yeah. Every athlete is an experiment of one.

Bob:

Every athlete's an experiment of one. And I say this to our kids in our national camps. It doesn't matter what the player sitting next to you in the locker room is doing his or her path has no bearing on your path whatsoever. Early commit, late commit, early developer, late developer, best player at seven, best player at 17. Every single one of those players is an experiment of one.

Bob:

What is good for that player? And, you know, I had a really good point to make to, to be made about this, but I forgot it. It'll come back.

Scott:

Okay. When it comes to

Bob:

you, let it, let us know.

Jamie:

You know what, while you're thinking of the point, can you do me a favor? Can you tell that Wisconsin pond hockey story?

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Jamie:

So that was such a cool experiment that you guys did. Yeah. That was a impressive

Bob:

all Kenny Martell. Right. And, and, and here's what we learned when we were, when we were explaining or remind me to tell you a story about the small ice kid and parent, the big guys. Okay. But this, so, so what we were learning is the stories we were telling was resonating differently with different people.

Bob:

This idea of what does an ice rink look like to a seven year old, You know, it kept resonating in Kenny Martel's head, and he had the idea of let's go to Wisconsin at our pond hockey championship and let's clear off a rink that is appropriate that how a seven year old would look at a rink compared to an adult. And we did the math, right? We did, what is the average size of a American eight, eight year old player, a seven year old player? What is the average size of an adult male? Then, you know, what, then we said, okay, well, this would be what a size of a net would be, and this would be a rate.

Bob:

And the thing about it was funny was we did not ask any of those people in that video to come over and skate. They just cleared the rink off. They had the tractors come out or the hoist come out, ring the big nets and Kenny and a couple of the other ATM managers sat there and waited and sure enough, people wanted to see what that was about. And it was a great experiment because, you know, none of that was staged. None of that.

Bob:

It was just people came over, played on it. And then we just mic them up and said, what'd you think? And all those things were just so organic and so genuine, and it just made the liberal arts people understand, but the engineers did it. And sure enough, we'd show that video and anybody, you know, who wasn't a liberal arts major. And I joke about this like, oh yeah, that's fine.

Bob:

But what are the stats? So if you ever saw then the video we did at Joe Louis Arena, where they put the monitors on the little seven year olds, I don't know if you've seen that one. Oh my gosh. I'll send it to you. Okay.

Bob:

Because what's interesting there is we, you know, the liberal arts people were like, oh, that so much sense. Yeah. Look at that. The big, the big ice and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the engineers will like show us the data.

Bob:

So we put the monitors on the kids and we showed them how many strides was across ice skate. How many strides, how many times did they touch the puck? And that's, you know, we had commissioned a study before that. And that's when we started to talk about a small area, you know, twice as many puck touches four times, as many passes this many shots, all of those things, but we had to attack the misperception of adults, the parents in many different ways.

Scott:

Totally.

Bob:

Right. And, and so when you look at all of that, it, it really made sense. I remember I had a conversation with a parent in Bloomington, Indiana, or I'm sorry, Bloomington, Illinois. And, we did a small ice demonstration and the parent was like, well, my kid hated it. I hated it.

Bob:

My kid is a better player on the big surface. And, you know, that made me understand that's the perception of a parent. There's no one around their son or daughter. So the perception is my son or daughter is better because he or she has the puck and nobody's around them and they can skate uncontested. Well, then they go to a smaller area and now they don't have the puck as much.

Bob:

They have to work for the puck. They're, you know, they're improving, but that's not what the parent sees. The parent sees, oh, they're better with more ice, which we know is not the case at the highest levels of hockey. That's right.

Scott:

Right? Totally.

Bob:

The other thing is when you watch cross ice hockey or small area games in a practice, it's hard for you to understand that, right? Because it's not what we're used to seeing. You know, you go to an NHL game, you sit up high and there's the ice before us, you know, unless you're watching with the trained eye, you don't see the small area battles. You don't see 10 players in a sixth of the ice because you're watching the game on 200 by 85. So then you go watch Mike hockey or cross ice hockey.

Bob:

And it's hard for us to watch. Is uncomfortable because it doesn't look like what our brain is used to.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

And what we've learned, and I learned this from a colleague, Joe Bonnet was the first one who said it to me and said, if you shut your eyes and listen to cross ice hockey, it sounds like the NHL. If you close your eyes and listen to full ice hockey at seven years old, doesn't sound anything like what hockey is supposed to sound like.

Scott:

That's so interesting.

Bob:

Isn't that interesting?

Scott:

Yeah, it makes sense. Totally makes sense.

Jamie:

It was it was so interesting to hear. The number of times of the change of direction on that massive sheet, the number of times they touched the puck, the number of times they were contested. It was I mean, when you listen to that video, when you saw the the exercise you guys did with that big oversized sheet of ice for the Scott, you should have seen The the it was like it was a hockey goalie with like with like a soccer goal behind him. It was like I mean it was like the amount of space was it was it was unbelievable. It's like what a what a five year old goalie looks like in a in a regulation size hockey net.

Jamie:

Right? I mean and and and then you should have heard the interviews after that. These are all adults and they're going, oh my God, that was really hard. And it was, you know, so when you when you see that exercise and you listen to me talk, Bob. The ADM model makes a thousand.

Jamie:

Percent I mean you can't not like it for your child and me as a stupid hockey parent when I when my kid was a mite I'm going where's the full ice mites where why can't you know I couldn't wait get because I was stupid and uninformed I couldn't wait to get my kid into full ice mites and looking back I'm going Jesus Christ was I stupid? You just don't know what you don't know until you know it right?

Bob:

Oh and that's what we see we see that all over The United States. Right. And that's why, to your point, that's why those videos are so important. The next big thing that we're seeing is how the regulation net size is hurting the development of scores and goaltenders at nine and nine and 10 years old, because think about how many goals are scored that have no reason to be going the net, except the goalie is small.

Scott:

Too short. Right?

Bob:

Yeah. It's a

Scott:

100%.

Bob:

You know, I kind of joke about it's, you know, the one I, what is it in, in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king

Jamie:

is king.

Bob:

Yeah. Nine years old. The kid who can lift the puck puck.

Jamie:

Yes.

Bob:

Right. Hero. He's a hero. He scores all the goals. Yep.

Bob:

Right. But it is such a false expectation for both those kids. And then those, those parents and, and excuse me, gave me one more thing. It's sort of like the same thing with the early developing skater. Who's put on a team where the coach tells them, okay, Scott, you're a great skater.

Bob:

You go do anything you want.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

But we don't work on your hands. We don't work on your passing and we don't work on your awareness and decision making because I can win a game. If I let Scott go do whatever he wants. Right. So at nine and 10, Scott is a great player,

Jamie:

right?

Bob:

And 11 and 12 is still pretty good. And then at 13, all of a sudden now he has to make decisions all of a sudden. Now he has to get himself out of trouble and he has no hands.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

He has no awareness because all we did was allow him to be one dimensional at a young age. That, and so we have a very smart guy named Rick Murray, who's a professor at a university in the South. Who's a goalie one of our goalie gurus. And he did a study on, age appropriate nets at tenU and the number of the importance of this. It's unbelievable.

Bob:

First of all, injury prevention, you know, you're not taking nine and 10 year olds overuse injury, pushing from post to post, but they haven't had puberty, so they don't have the strength to create the power that they need to go from post to post. You know, we're looking into, will this cut down on the number of overuse and hip injuries that we're seeing with goalies at the other age? Right. Will more goalies stay in the game because they're not getting lit up for seven goals because they can't reach the upper corners of the net. And then more importantly, we video these games and we're going around The Us and we're showing them is we are seeing a direct correlation to how the goals are scored.

Bob:

We're seeing more, if you will, hockey goals, kids going to the net, cross crease passes kids with their heads up, trying to find what is the goalie giving me as opposed to I can shoot anywhere I want.

Scott:

It's just

Bob:

it's going in. Now what's interesting about it is the initial pushback from people is the same as the initial pushback when we first launched the ADM. It doesn't look like real hockey. Right.

Scott:

That's so that makes it makes so much sense. And, you know, I think that more parent like part of the piece when I know that you're addressing this clearly, but it's just like parent education. Right. And I think that that's huge because, you know, like, unfortunately, I guess maybe is the right word. But like, you know, the the higher end younger hockey players are playing full ice earlier, you know, and so there's there's just like this pathway that is maybe like, you know, goes in an opposite direction of what the ADM is trying to achieve.

Scott:

But yet parents are chomping on the bit for something like that only because that's like the quote unquote higher level, you know, and then then there are the stories they tell themselves follow.

Bob:

And it's counterintuitive. You're

Scott:

absolutely right.

Bob:

It's counterintuitive to what's good for kids. Right. And it's actually counterintuitive to what is good for the best kids. Right?

Jamie:

So

Bob:

if you really have, and this is, this is what the environment in some areas, and you guys are in a hotbed of the environment where, you know, it's not being accepted as much as it should. The best players should be put in the most difficult environment. Sure. Right. The best players should be challenged so they can continue to be the best.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

Where it also becomes a problem is this is if we say the best players are playing full lights, or that's how they're being recruited. Those are the best athletes at the youngest ages. Right? So now the players that are going into the so called lesser programs, which really are the better programs, they're getting the best training, but they're not the best athletes where we're getting the best production. The best, development of our players is go back to what used to be non traditional.

Bob:

Now we're just newer hockey areas. The East Coast, Massachusetts, Atlantic, New York is pretty good actually, but, Michigan, Illinois, the traditional areas where the people, the parents have played more hockey. That's where most of the pushback is. So your best athletes are getting the wrong training, California and Florida and places like that, where there's no pushback because it's first generational parents, USA hockey walks in and says, this is the best thing for your kids. And please let us help you understand why.

Bob:

The question without a pushback and they follow the model. And guess what? I mean, you know, had more a couple of years ago. We had more players try out for the national team development program in Plymouth from Carolina than we did from Michigan. Had more players from Florida try out for the program than from Michigan.

Bob:

Think about that more from California, right? It's unreal. You know, so, so we gotta find a way for our best athletes. You know, first of all, every single kid needs to be in that environment. Right.

Bob:

But I look at it, just think of what we could be producing at every level of hockey, because again, it's fulfilling the potential, right? It's making better Banhams, better juniors, better high school players, better college players, right? That's really what we have to do and keeping them in the game because think about this. You, you don't do when children don't you do things you get better at. You want to stay in, Right.

Bob:

Engagement, challenging and improvement. Do that. Kids are going to stay in hockey for a very long time.

Scott:

Now, I have a question. Sorry, James. Let me sneak one in here. So, we talked about the American Development Model, obviously. So, I want to touch upon body contact and body checking.

Jamie:

Oh, this is a

Bob:

good one.

Scott:

And Jamie's kid just started this year. When I was playing, we could you know, body checking was, you know, when you were peewees, you could body check. But we've talked a bunch with different parents and it goes something like this. It's like, why are the kids not learning to do it at younger ages and why do they introduce it when they're full of testosterone and ready to rip each other's heads off and the kids by that point, you know, they don't know how to take a hit or give a hit or the timing's bad. And so Some

Jamie:

kids hit puberty and some haven't. So, side

Scott:

are is already taller. There's like Yeah. So, and that's so I just wanna like, you know, ask, you know, you from obviously all the work that you've put into this and like the decision on when to introduce body contact, you know, at the age that it is now versus when it was kind of like what what is a misconception? What are we getting wrong outsiders, if you will, kind of saying like, Hey, for some reason it just seems to be makes more sense to introduce it at a

Bob:

younger age. Can't hurt themselves, we are, we are. You're missing the biggest point.

Scott:

Oh, so, but what I will say, so having gone through the training, of course, and this what I tell you. Okay, so let's back up for a second. So body contact versus body checking, there's a difference there. And as far as as as low as is, you know, at the eight U, you go to the ADM, you go through the coaching, you know, and materials, body contact is something that is is certainly part of the programming. Angling, you know, and and so it's not discouraged, not discouraged at all.

Scott:

So I guess there's like, there's, I don't know, teasing the difference between the two because I, you know, just from my own coaching experience, know, teaching and watching my son being coached by others, you know, contact is not something like I would I did it when I was coaching mites and squirts and making sure that they would work on angling and cutting off the hands, you know, and understanding what it feels like to receive body contact. But I think, you know, and, and it's a misconception, I guess, but maybe if you could just speak a little bit more about where I'm going with this.

Bob:

So much here. So first of all, what's let's this idea of I walk into a rink and peewees have a bigger size difference than banner. So I shouldn't use peew using banner 12U has a bigger size difference or fourteen years, a bigger size difference than 12U that is in fact, factually incorrect. Okay. So when, when we went and looked at the American medical association, percentage, height percentage and everything of the American male at those ages, the percentage of difference between 11 and 12 year olds and 13 and 14 year olds is exactly the same.

Bob:

Right. You walk into a rink and there's the six foot twelve year old playing against the five foot nine. Absolutely. And that same thing is happening at 14. So it doesn't matter.

Bob:

Doesn't matter. That's a total it's factually incorrect.

Jamie:

Okay. Interesting.

Bob:

All right. But everybody has this story. I walked in the rink and my kid had to play against a six foot two Pee Wee. Yes. Right.

Bob:

Okay. So, so that's that. The second thing is this idea that all of a sudden at 13, we're we're letting him turn loose. And as you mentioned, Scott, if you follow the ADM model, you're gonna put your kids in a smaller area at a younger age. We talk about more passes, more changes of direction, more shots, right?

Bob:

All of that, more body content. Sure. More kids in a smaller space equals more body contact. So if we're doing it right, there's less of a fear of physical play because we put them in small areas at seven, eight, 09:10. Then our coaches are being asked to teach angling, to teach contact starting at nine.

Bob:

Then they're being asked to teach actually body checking starting at eleven and twelve. So when they move into thirteen, they are not just okay. Now we're going to hit, which is a problem, right? Because we live in a football society, right? You, the three of us already are talking about body contact and body checking the average parent in the rink.

Bob:

They don't use those terms. They use hitting. When are we gonna start hitting? My team wants to start hitting. Right.

Bob:

Right. So it's a whole different mindset. Now think of the NHL, think of the NHL in 2025 compared to the NHL in 2015, 2010, everybody in the NHL now angles and takes the bottom line. There's very few blow up hits anymore. Do you remember what it was like twenty years ago?

Jamie:

Scott Stevens days.

Bob:

Yeah. Not Bobby Nystrom with the Islanders, every hit turned into a fight. You remember those? Oh, it was great. Like I told you, I wasn't a fan of that fan, right?

Bob:

Gary Howard, the two guys would polite. It wasn't come off. It could be a fight. Like everything was a big hit, big fight.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Bob:

That, that, that is like, it's sort of like blocking shots. Everybody blocks shots now that was within twenty years ago because your equipment is so good. Everybody angles, everybody plays the body. The game is different, right? So it's important.

Bob:

We recognize how the game is played at the highest levels. Is there physical contact? Absolutely. Are there some blowup hits? Absolutely.

Bob:

Is it anything like it was twenty years ago? Not even close. Right. But if we follow the method of starting kids in small areas, getting them comfortable with body contact, getting them comfortable with playing in tight areas, angling, body position, puck protection, all the way up, then through body contact or body checking the system makes sense. And by the way, when we started, well, first of all, I'll tell you this.

Bob:

When we made the change, it was the most emails we ever got at USA Hockey. Oh, that body contact change. We made the change and we were the dumbest hockey people in the world for doing it. And I can't share with you some of the emails on this podcast.

Jamie:

I can imagine that moved my job.

Bob:

I told you what people were saying to us in one year. That was it. Never got another bad one. Cause people saw what it did to the game. If you're open minded to look, the other thing that's, that's really true is when we looked into this, it started as a concussion prevention and then the injury prevention.

Bob:

That's how the conversation started.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

The conversation ended. And the reason we did this was skill development, skill and technique. Body checking is a skill, but it's the only skill that negates the development of the other skills. Interesting. And it was negating the development of other skills in two of the four years, which we called the prime ages of skill development.

Bob:

The real prime ages of skill development is nine to 14, but we had body contact or body checking at 11. So we weren't allowing our players

Jamie:

to get the

Bob:

most out of that skill development window. So that's

Jamie:

why you moved it backwards.

Bob:

Exactly. And it is absolutely one of the reasons why we are seeing more skilled American players in the game. Right. And the other is this, the rule change. I don't know if we're going to get to this, but this whole idea of tag up offside versus automatic offsides, right?

Jamie:

Oh, oh my God. That is such a good question too. Yeah. We,

Bob:

Oh my God. You know, don't even get me started on that. Like, let's not look at the number high end NHL defensemen that we are developing compared to Canada. Like, have you seen the number of high end NHL defend, everyone, every one of our NHL defensemen can get the puck. They can back up.

Bob:

They can look for options. They can find space. It's incredible. Right.

Jamie:

And you think that's due to the offside rule.

Bob:

Why wouldn't it be if you don't allow a kid

Jamie:

to explain that, explain that to our audience, just so they,

Bob:

puck comes out, go over the blue line, right? If we're allowed to just hammer it back in and tag up off sides, we never develop defensemen who are comfortable retreating with the puck, handling with the puck, creating type of space and finding open forwards. We never developed forwards who know where to go on the ice to find the open space. How do I get open? How do I regroup?

Bob:

Where, how do I reattack? How do I create rush opportunities? Oh, and by the way, at every level of high level hockey through the NHL, there is a higher percentage of goals scored on rush opportunities than there is on for checking opportunities. Right. So, you know, this isn't three guys at The USA office saying, oh, this will be fun.

Bob:

Let's screw. Will make everybody mad. Like these are well thought out researched ideas. And when we changed it this year to allow 15 year old and above to have TAG up, it was once again, the idea that if we do it right at nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, and fourteen, by fifteen, we can introduce tag up icing, but players now have the awareness and decision making ability and the skill and technique to make that decision. Do I regroup?

Bob:

Where's my opening? Do I send it back in? Right. So all of these things, cross ice hockey, small area hockey, body checking, body contact to body checking, tag up, offsides. All of that is looked at how can we best create a model of development that's age appropriate for our kids?

Scott:

I mean, that's that's going to answer a lot of questions because I think, you know, again, just going back to the idea of like parental education, right? Like parents see something that doesn't look like the hockey that they know and immediately it's a mistake or immediately it's the wrong thing. Like, why? Why? And they I guess, you know, people just don't and myself included before I started going, you know, coaching and all that stuff.

Scott:

The why behind it is is is important and parents just don't don't necessarily see that. So this is super, super helpful.

Jamie:

Yeah. So I know Scott has a really good question about about refs, but I want to sneak this in there first because you just happened to mention the body checking was kind of more of a concussion safety thing at first, right? So on the safety topic, so just recently, one of our kids, so my kids are 13. He's a twenty twelve. So he's 13 you right now.

Jamie:

So just recently one of our kids was opened up above the knee by escape. Okay, We have a kid on our team whose older brother who's 18 also opened up right above the knee by escape. So my question to you is my son's been wearing the Bauer with the Kevlar neck protector since he was a mite. Okay. But my question is, is, is USA hockey thinking of making that stuff mandatory, right?

Jamie:

Like, wrist protection, neck protection, and maybe something below the waist, because all of sudden I'm seeing below the Achilles, I saw kids Achilles get get get torn apart from a skate. Is that something that you guys talk about at USA hockey and is that

Bob:

something coming down the pipeline? I can't say it's coming down the pipeline just yet, but I can say that we talk about it all the time.

Jamie:

Yeah, I would think so.

Bob:

And that fine line between mandating and recommending is really important. And, you know, part of, when the unfortunate incident and incidents over the last five, six years happened, you know, part of that discussion was also that there were no products available to buy if we mandated. Right. So what do you do? Do you mandate and then keep kids off the ice until there's a product available?

Bob:

Right. Right. So, you know, so many things went into that. So we strongly recommended it. And then we started our committee.

Bob:

Our spec committee started working with the manufacturers to a find a certification that's possible for this stuff. And then how quickly could they get this to the market? Right.

Scott:

So I,

Bob:

I don't want to, debate the question, but I, I can't. Yes. We're talking about it. And we talk about it all the time and we have a committee, at USA hockey made up of doctors and trainers and equipment manufacturers who look at this in order. How can we continually make the game safer for our participants?

Bob:

Right.

Jamie:

Yeah. Makes sense.

Scott:

Yeah, that makes sense. I've been cut two times and it was also is by my own skate. So, you know, I think a lot of people think like it likely to come from someone else's skate. I have done it twice to myself. Thankfully, not too bad.

Jamie:

Especially with all these sharp machines, right? All the sharpening, all these sharpening machines, the sparks, everybody's skates are as sharp as ever. Right? Because everybody has a home sharpening machine. Used to be you couldn't find a sharpening machine.

Jamie:

You at least had dull blades. Now everybody has sharp blades everywhere.

Bob:

Well, Scott, I'm glad you're okay. But that comment tells me more about you as a player.

Scott:

Fair. Fair. It's all good. It's all good. But, that's funny.

Scott:

So get it talking about the, Jamie just brought up you know, the

Bob:

official, sorry, sorry. I had to kill high school. I remember I played high school hockey on Long Island. That was back in the days when you could multi roster on teams. I was playing on three different teams.

Bob:

I was playing on a house league team at Newbridge Park in Belmore, a how a recreational team at Tani Ed Park in Hitsville, and then a travel of four teams and my high school team. And I remember we had a kid on high school. Remember how you used to look at your blade and test to see if the blade was sharp and everything. Sure. He was in the locker room and he was holding the blade up and dropped the skate on in space, cut them.

Bob:

And he had to go to the high school, get stitches and miss the hockey game.

Scott:

Oh Jesus.

Bob:

You know, I mean, there's something we, you know, some things you can't. Yeah. Well, anyways,

Scott:

that that was for better. I that was not for better or worse. That wasn't my story. Any event. So another thing that, that often comes up is officiating And I, you know, you know, either anecdotally or, you know, you read things about either there being like referee shortages and just having, you know, challenges with getting enough people to come out to want to be officials in part because of the way parents behave and, all that stuff.

Scott:

I can say, you know, from my perspective as a coach, when we had, you know, when I don't know from like 10 you, one of the things that was paramount for myself when it came to officiating was not whether or not they got the offsides right or wrong. It was when it came down to player safety. And it was when player safety didn't seem prioritized, you know, then it was like that that's when I would start to get hot under the collar. And, you know, so in any event, but then you have parents and you see the clips on and, you know, whatever the Internet and just parents completely acting inappropriately. I'm curious to know just kind of like maybe the state of like officiating, meaning like is it are there shortages?

Scott:

You know, is that a real problem or is that just something that is maybe a misconception about what's going on? And then separately, you know, as parents, you know, because there are young officials, etcetera, like what would be a recommendation to parents? Like what can we do better as like part of the hockey community in making this a less challenging proposition for people that are interested in becoming an official?

Bob:

Are there shortages? I mean, there are perceived shortages in certain areas of the country, but sometimes those shortages are scheduling problems more than shortages of referees.

Scott:

Okay.

Bob:

And, and the schedules hold a tremendous amount of power and the balance of where the officials go. And if you have officials now, sure. That's not to say we have enough officials, right? We need more officials, but then it gets into why would you let your son or daughter officiate when parents are screaming and yelling and attacking kids like happened in Seattle last season. Right?

Bob:

Like, you know, all this is really happening. So, a couple of things. We are constantly improving our officiating education program. We have hired two officiating coordinator development people, youth officiating development coordinators, And we're looking to hire a third whose job it is, is to go out into the grassroots and make officiating better. We are doing some sort of parent information and education on, you know, officials, the game for your child is the official's practice, right?

Bob:

They do a clinic, they get on the ice, they learn, then they get thrown in the game. It's it's. It's their first opportunity to get better. Sure. So we have to, we have, we have to find ways to provide educational opportunities for our officials, which USA hockey is doing.

Bob:

We now have try officiating for free clinics. We have, a development clinics where officials go on the ice and get better outside of a game environment. Our districts and our affiliates are working together with our referee and chiefs and our coaching chiefs are working together that when we have player development camps, we also have officiating development camps in conjunction with that.

Scott:

That's great.

Bob:

So kids are trying out for these development opportunities. We have developing officials with mentors at those camps. Right. So we're doing a lot to, to improve that. We're also looking at perhaps some environmental rule changes.

Bob:

So one of the things we will be voting on in January is something very near and dear to my heart. It's called the Green Crest program, which is when you earn your card and crest, your referee's card and crest that you put on your, your Jersey, you get a beautiful black, white, red, white, blue crest. And that says USA hockey in the year. And that shows everybody that you're educated and certified to officiate. In January, our body will vote on starting in 2627, any official under the age of 18 will get a green crest to show coaches and parents that, Hey, he's young.

Bob:

Let's let in some affiliates, 14 years old, cut him, sit slap. Others, They are learning. They're trying to get better. When your 15 year old kid is roughing at an MU game, is it really necessary to yell at that child? Right.

Bob:

And who are you if you need to do that? Totally. So we think it will hopefully change some of the environment in the stands, but here's the kicker. If you get a bench penalty as a coach for abusing verbally abusing a referee, who's on the ice with a referee with the green badge. So I'm 15, I'm officiating a game with Scott and Jamie is yelling at Scott.

Bob:

30. Okay. And you get a two minute bench penalty. That's four minutes.

Jamie:

Oh, it extends. Oh, okay. It doubles double the penalty.

Bob:

If you yell at officials with a green press, right.

Jamie:

Who are basically in training.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

Right. But he's there helping the young official get better. Right.

Scott:

Sure.

Bob:

And you don't get to say, oh, I wasn't yelling at the kid. Was yelling at the no, no, no, no.

Jamie:

Doesn't matter.

Bob:

Right. It doesn't matter. And it, for me, this is a really exciting initiative. They have something like it in Ontario where 18 officials wear a green arm bed. Okay.

Bob:

Right.

Scott:

Oh, okay.

Bob:

But we're hoping that that idea when a grown man or woman is in the stands and recognizes the referee they're yelling at is 14 or 15 or 16. Yeah. Maybe they just take a step back and say, you know what? I'm okay.

Scott:

Yeah. Let's hope.

Jamie:

Let's hope.

Scott:

It's unreal to see, you know, adults behaving like children with temper tantrums. And it never ceases to amaze me, to be honest with you.

Bob:

You know, it starts with our coaches. And then the other thing I wanted to mention, and this goes back a little bit to the body checking and body contact. We now a manager of education at USA hockey and her job is to integrate our coaching and officiating education program. So believe it or not, when we launched the new checking rules, what the officials were getting for education was different than what the coaches were getting.

Scott:

Oh no way.

Bob:

The rule was the same, but how they were taught and what they were taught was different. So now anything in our education programs that, are the same, It's the same message. So our coaches and our officials getting the same message. And, and also back when we launched that officials and coaches were not getting trained every year. Our old curriculums were you didn't have to advance every year.

Bob:

You didn't have to have certification every year. Right. Now you have to have certification every year on coaching until you're a level four and every year in officiating. So now instead of saying, oh, we changed the checking rule, but not every official will get that information because they don't have to take a clinic. Now every official and every coach will get that information and they'll get the same information.

Bob:

So we're really excited and proud about that. We launched that, well on the coaching side, we launched it about four years ago and on the officiating side, two years ago. So now those programs are more integrated.

Scott:

Yeah, that's great.

Jamie:

Yeah. So I'm just curious. What's your, what's your favorite, crazy hockey parents story since you went through it with your son? I mean, you gotta have a bunch of them. So I'm curious as one stick out more so than another.

Bob:

I'm not going to tell you, but I am going to tell you, I'll tell you a couple of things. I'll tell you about a parent who I became very close friends with, and his son was a good player and played with my son at peace. I think he was 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. This parent chased it, chased it all the spring turns, all the summer tournaments. And he would always ask me for advice and I would tell him, and when our kids became 16 and his son was no longer playing at the level that he did at a young age.

Bob:

The father recognized it and turned to me one day in the stands and says, do I ever wish I would have listened to you when so and so was 10. Right. And I hear that not just from me, but the ADM and the ADM managers more often than not that whole reflection of, oh my gosh, I got caught up in the craziness. What have I done? And boy, I wish I would have listened to what you guys were telling us back then.

Bob:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Right. That's exactly why we started or one of the reasons why we started this podcast to get that out there from people like yourself, Doug Christiansen, all the people we're talking to. I mean, so they can maybe not make those mistakes right at those parents look back on.

Scott:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Scott:

And and and we're going to wrap it up. And thank you so much, Bob, for taking the time. We're we've run a little long. And just if there was a quick thought about this and it's probably not. So feel free to pass on the question.

Scott:

But just in terms of like the downward pressure on parents to like push their kids to be high achievers, early specialization. Now, with the CHL coming, you know, in the NCAA and you have Gavin McKinnon getting paid NIL money, Like, do you believe that those changes are putting downward pressure on kids? You know, like you have families and parents looking up at this and now that I can make money, not even just get a full ride in college and blah blah blah. Like, do you believe some of those changes are going to fuel some of that in parents and families? Or it's still too early to tell.

Jamie:

Is it going to hurt

Bob:

the game? What's that?

Jamie:

And is it going to

Bob:

hurt the game? I'm not sure it can get any worse than it is. Right. We're saying that nil money and that is going to make the environment even more toxic than it was when the goal was a scholarship.

Scott:

Right.

Bob:

Right. The goal should have never been a scholarship.

Scott:

The

Bob:

goal should always be the passion. The enjoy. I will tell you this. And I worked at some of the highest, well, the highest level, right. I worked as the director of player development for the Edmonton Oilers, the players who make it, make a career.

Bob:

They love the game more than anybody else.

Scott:

Yeah. Like period end

Bob:

of You know, they hit you with sticks at the highest level, right? You know that, right? Totally. The game is hard. You have to want to continually improve.

Bob:

You have to want to go to the rink.

Scott:

You

Bob:

have to love what you're doing. The players that I see burnout at the American league college junior tier one, the pressure that was put on them for, as you said, that downward pressure instead of building a passion and love for the game, right? The John O'Sullivan quote from what is his his playing the game, right? He's unbelievable. What's the first thing you tell your kid after he comes out right?

Bob:

Of a game is I love watching you play. Yeah. Yep. I am so fortunate that my son has made it to where he is. And I will tell you this.

Bob:

I learned from John O'Sullivan in that podcast. And to this day, I have my son's on the IR right now, and I'm sorry to even bring it up, but, but we had a conversation the other day because it's hard. And I said, is this still what you want to do? And he goes, dad, I love it. I love it.

Bob:

Right. And you better, you better. And I will tell you this. I catch my son before every game. And I have ever since I stopped coaching him, have fun, enjoy the journey.

Bob:

Right. And afterwards, and I'm lucky I've been in the game and he, I think he still respects my opinion because he asked me, dad, what do you think? Hey, what'd you think about this? What do you think about that? And it's great.

Bob:

But the one thing I can tell you, my son knows is I love watching him play. And I do. I really do. And I, and so I learned that from John O'Sullivan and it, it changed. It changed even though I had been in this business for now forty years.

Bob:

That's the kind of perspective we need every parent to take passion, enjoyment. I love watching you play kid.

Jamie:

Yep. Right.

Bob:

Well, I think that's a perfect

Jamie:

place to

Scott:

end on. End on. Yes. This was such a treat. Wonderful.

Scott:

So insightful. And thank you so much for sharing all of that with our audience, with us. This is, you know, just only going to help, you know, deliver that message to people. And it's something we're certainly going to share with people when we talk around the ring. So, thank you so much.

Bob:

Yes. Thank you both. Appreciate you having me on.

Jamie:

I got you on for part two, three, four, five, six. You, Bob. Really appreciate

Scott:

Thanks care. So It's great evening. Thanks so much. Thanks. Bye.

Scott:

All right, everyone. Welcome back from an incredible interview with Bob Mancini. Dude, how awesome guy's great. Is

Jamie:

The guy's I mean, it was so much information in an hour and fifteen minutes or whatever it runs. Yeah. I mean, we could have gone for another I could have talked to him all night.

Scott:

Yeah. And, you know, just like hearing him talk about just what they're doing at USA Hockey and just like the grassroots level stuff.

Bob:

And Yeah.

Scott:

He even pointed out, like like, 90% of the conversation is about 10% of, like, what's going on. And, you know, I thought that was, like, also really interesting and how, like, there's you know, for you and I, we both had kids playing tier one. I mean, I'm sure plenty of our listeners have tier one hockey players, and there's plenty of tier two that's trying to go to tier one. Like, that's you know, I don't know. He didn't talk about percentages, but, like, that's only one piece of what USA hockey is is addressing.

Scott:

Right? And so there's all this grassroots stuff. You talked about how the NHL is investing and all the learn to play.

Jamie:

And Yeah.

Scott:

In almost every market, if not every market, there's opportunities to get introduced to the game of ice hockey. And you talked about their attention and the changes that they made to keep you know? So just so they're doing so many great things.

Jamie:

Yeah. You know? They have their hand in everything, it sounds like. Totally. Yeah.

Jamie:

What I what

Scott:

I will say in you know, as he was talking, I was thinking about things is and even I think we we mentioned it in the interview, but just like the parent education piece, I'm like Mhmm. What the American development model is, what's

Jamie:

Yeah.

Scott:

You know, it's intended to do, perhaps why certain things are in place that don't necessarily look or feel like hockey that we're used to.

Jamie:

Right. You

Scott:

know? And I don't

Jamie:

the untrained eye.

Scott:

Yeah. And I'll speak for myself. You know, I I got familiar with a bunch of this stuff from going through the coaching certifications. Right? So when we even talked about like body checking versus body contact, like it was really clear when going through the coaching modules that they encourage body contact.

Scott:

Right? So like, so that was something that we incorporated into our, you know, our practice plans, you know, when they were mites. Mhmm. But the interesting thing that we didn't really even talk about, but the enforce I don't enforcement's maybe the wrong word.

Jamie:

No. I know what you're gonna say.

Scott:

The organizations, you know, I I you know, we were we created our practice plans and we went with it, and there wasn't, like, any type of, like, having to run it by anyone at the organization to, like, say this is in compliance with the ADM. So while they do a great job

Jamie:

Yeah.

Scott:

Of, like, you know the the organization makes sure that you you you get your coaching certification. Right? So that's, a nonnegotiable, but they don't oversee, like, what you end up doing day to day. And and there and it's that gap where I think some of the stuff that The USA Hockey does gets potentially lost because you probably have plenty of coaches that, you know, are doing things their way. Right?

Scott:

And not to say that their way is necessarily bad, but it's just not necessarily the ADM model.

Jamie:

You know, it's funny that you bring that up now because one of the questions, if we still had him on, I would love and I meant to ask this, and I didn't know where to kind of sneak it in, then we got kind of long on time. But he kind of touched on it a little bit actually in the interview, if you go back. He mentioned so I I wanted to ask him because I heard him say in another interview that not all the regions of The United States have taken well to the ADM model.

Scott:

Right. And he said we're not, like, kind of a hotbed of, like, the noncompliant areas.

Jamie:

Before he came on with us, I was gonna ask him, is the Northeast one of those areas or are they compliant? Like, how does that work? And he actually said in our interview, you know, that our area is not, you know.

Scott:

Right.

Jamie:

And it's funny that you mentioned that you, you know, so you as the coach, when you put your practice plan together, you followed ADM type stuff. Whereas Dominic, I don't ever remember, ever remember anybody teaching Dominic angling body contact any of that stuff, by the way. So, like you said, you know, it's kind of up to the coach to do it, especially if the organization is not saying like, these are the things you need to do in your practice. This is what you need Like, to I'm thinking back to when Dominic was a mite. I don't think we did any ADM stuff.

Scott:

You know, and I'm thinking about, there's one of I was I had a conversation with a dad who's also a coach who and I could be confusing some things, but I definitely had a conversation with someone or listened to something about let's maybe it was in Finland, Scandinavia, where the coaching the the practice plans

Jamie:

Yeah.

Scott:

Are kinda are standardized. And it's not something that's left up to, like To the coach. The coaches to figure out. Yeah. Like, hockey, their governing hockey board has put together the practice plans for that week and that that, you know, which they they go week over week.

Scott:

Yeah. And and if there's, a prescription there and that prescription also allows for transparency as well, you know, which also probably helps, you know, families and parents understand, like, you know, what their kids are learning, perhaps the why. And it also, you know, it kind of takes it takes a, you know, a variable out of, like, perhaps the decision making in terms of, like, am I playing at this club or that club? Because, you know, you're getting the same Yeah. Same programming.

Jamie:

You know, it's it's funny you say that. I have a story from years ago that Dominic was at a stick and puck. He was probably eight and he had like the yellow avalanche practice jersey on. Right? Yeah.

Jamie:

And there was an older kid on the ice who was probably like a U18 kid, just about to go to college, right, who had the same yellow practice avalanche, you know, jersey on, right? So the father, He happened to find me somehow or, you know, he's a guy. Was that your little guy in the island? Sure he's so I said, Yeah. So we started talking during the second time, and I talked to him for like an hour and a half.

Jamie:

The guy was phenomenal. It was one of the best. Hockey conversations for a young hockey parent that I was at the time from somebody who had an 18 year old who literally just been through it. Right. And I think his kid was going to the University of Indiana to play club hockey.

Scott:

Okay.

Jamie:

I think that was the plan. And he's the one that originally told me, hey, listen, your kid's gonna get pulled in a bunch of different directions. You know, don't do five, six, 10 spring teams, just pick one, you know, and do that and take the rest of the money and go do skills. Right. That was one of things he told me.

Jamie:

And one of his stories was that his kid's team recently had just played a team from Finland. Okay. Where he said that they don't really play games until they're like 14 or something like that. 14, 15. Right.

Jamie:

And he says, all they do is they work on skills up to like 14. Okay. And one of the reasons why he was telling me, just work on skills, don't go play so many spring games is he said that when they played that team from Finland, he said, the difference between the American team and the team from Finland, he says the Finnish team did all the small things correct. Holding down sticks, stick lifting, how to take the puck off the boards, because that's all they do from five to 14.

Scott:

Interesting.

Jamie:

Right? You know, so, so I, I don't, I kind of, that kind of plays off what you said. I'm assuming that the model that they, or the structured model that they have over there for their young hockey players, obviously supports, you know, you know, the skill of their players. I mean, if you look at the Finland guys in the NHL, they're all very, very skilled players.

Scott:

Yeah. No. For sure. You know? You know, it's also it's also interesting.

Scott:

You know, there is much the in terms of population, smaller country, you know, all that other stuff. But, you know, the American development model, which, you know, is is introducing I shouldn't say introducing is not the right word, but going about things in a very thoughtful thoughtful way. Yeah. You know, the understanding the whys behind it, I I think is really important, you know, and and if I was in a coaching position again, you know, or, you know, if when that happens, you know, I think that's part of what I wanna communicate to families also is kind of the why behind some of it, you know, because I think it it really helps them understand, like, what we're working towards and and and why. So, yeah, that was great.

Scott:

And one other thing I also wanted to call it a few other things, but talking about the officiating and just touching upon that and this, you know, this initiative that they're looking at introducing, which is it's like, yeah, the Green Crest, which is, like, similar to what they do in Canada with, like, I think you said greener yellow armband. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just signifying that, like, hey, listen.

Scott:

You got someone that's learning out there. You have someone that, like, you should probably like young

Jamie:

Young some slack. Yeah.

Scott:

Yeah. For coaches and And I think that's so true. True is not the right word. You know, it's something that I think people take for granted. No, that is.

Scott:

But like what I was going say was, you know, everyone's got to learn somewhere. Like a surgeon has his first surgery sometime. You know what I mean? A firefighter fights their first fire at some point in time, you know? And so there has to be an opportunity for these people to to to kind of practice.

Scott:

And, you know, clearly being a doctor and a firefighter, very wildly different profession.

Jamie:

But there's practice in everything. Right?

Scott:

But right. And so practically speaking, like, if you're a young kid, like what if you think about it, like, where where are they going to get officiating practice if not at the games that they're hired to do? You know?

Jamie:

So, like The youth games are their practice. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Which is fine.

Scott:

There has to be like, I think, a tolerance, you know, or maybe more of a tolerance. And look, there's of course, officials get it wrong. And of course, there's going to be bad officials. Like, not everyone is going to be excellent at their job. Yeah.

Scott:

And that's that's true. But I think collectively as parents, like, when, you know, we need to do a better job of of not Mhmm. Of not going out of our minds.

Jamie:

I think that sometimes people, you know, it's funny. I wanted to ask Bob in the worst way when the but again, we ran out of time with him. But I wanted to ask him, like, what the USA Hockey employees talk about at the water cooler about like about like how stupid Us hockey parents are. Like, what do they say behind the scenes when they're at a barbecue? Where are they going?

Jamie:

Dumb hockey parents. Like, they have no idea what we're actually doing here. You know, like, because I'll give you an example. Okay. I have heard numerous occasions.

Jamie:

Okay. All right. Whatever league your kid plays in. Okay. Odds are that the points that they're given because everybody has points down.

Jamie:

Right? All these leagues have point totals and they follow point totals. Right?

Scott:

Talking about stats.

Jamie:

I'm talking about stats. Yeah. So so I've heard on so many occasions, parents getting angry about like, oh, that was my kid's assist. That was my kid's goal. So much to where they're like calling and emailing the leagues and going, Can you change this?

Jamie:

Like, dude, your kid's a 10 year old, a 14 year old, a 12 year old, a nine year old, an eight year old. Like, what are you doing? Like, you that league has the time and manpower to like, to go change like a stat sheet from like a 10 new game, a 13 new game, a 15 new game? Like, I think parents sometimes lose sight of this long game that you're

Bob:

in. Right.

Scott:

It gives too much importance to things that are ultimately not important.

Jamie:

I wanted to ask Bob about that. Well, I'll have to do it next time we have him on because I'm so curious what he would say to something like that. I I have a feeling I know exactly what he would say, just like what Doug Christianson would say. You know?

Scott:

Yeah. You know, you know, what would be interesting flip side to the idea that, you know, like when you were just saying, like, you know, the stupidity perhaps of, you know, parents out there and but like at the same time, perception is reality. And like, you know, if I was in USA Hockey shoes, like you have to you have to listen and you have to understand like like, what what parents are experiencing and what they're going through and and figure out ways to kind of bridge those gaps because it shouldn't be an adversarial relationship, obviously.

Jamie:

No. No. It shouldn't be. I agree. And and maybe USA hockey needs to put out more videos that parents should watch as they sign their kid up for youth hockey.

Scott:

Maybe.

Jamie:

Right? Right. Maybe that's not a terrible idea, but I don't think also parents need to check themselves. You know, we talked about not yelling at refs, You yell at a 15 year old ref or an 18 year old ref.

Scott:

Yeah.

Jamie:

You know, who's again in practice mode. Right. Or, you know, calling the league or emailing the league saying, Hey, can you go change my kid's stats? Like, that's nuts. Like, that's not what this is about.

Scott:

Totally.

Jamie:

Right. So. Totally agree. Maybe something to think about before you hit send.

Scott:

All right. Well, on that note, this has been a fantastic episode.

Jamie:

Yeah. Hope you guys enjoyed the interview. That was awesome. Yeah. I I wanna do it again with him.

Scott:

Yep. And on the, on the horizon, we've got Yeah. Some solid interviews lined up.

Jamie:

Yeah. We do.

Scott:

So we're looking forward to speaking with a few other very seasoned professionals that have different, roles within the game of ice hockey.

Jamie:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Scott:

So stay tuned. We got Alex Kim, as you mentioned, on the horizon. We've got Benny Maltz on the horizon, Angela Searce. So we got a lot of great guests coming up. So Right.

Scott:

Everyone continue to support the show. Please continue to listen. We got some great stuff coming up. Write us in. Let us know anything that, you know, is going on in your neck of the woods.

Scott:

Anything you'd like to hear, talk about. We'd love to hear from all of you. So thank you so much for for joining us.

Jamie:

Yeah. Go subscribe. Share the show. Somebody share the show to somebody in Alaska, please. Alaska and Idaho are the only two states in The United States that we're not in.

Jamie:

So, I mean, Aruba is listening to us, so somebody in Alaska should be listening to us.

Scott:

That's probably someone on vacation.

Jamie:

Like, yes, you're probably not wrong about that, but whatever works. But, but yes, we appreciate everybody listening. We appreciate everybody sharing the show and writing in and supporting us. Thank you very much, for all the support. And a special thanks again to Bob Mancini for taking the time out of his busy day to sit with us for an hour and fifteen minutes.

Jamie:

That was so much fun. Yep. Hope you guys enjoyed it.

Scott:

All right, brother. All right, homeboy. It's a wrap.

Jamie:

I hope Otto feels better.

Scott:

I think he's on his way to better this, but thank you. I will share that with him.

Jamie:

Yeah. I'll talk to you later.

Scott:

Alright, dude.

Jamie:

See you, everybody. Later.