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Beth's brother, Daniel Winter, joins Stephen and Beth this week to discuss the premise of his book and podcast, Dead by Tomorrow. This week, they discuss what it looks like to live life to the fullest and how to invest in the relationships around you.
Show Notes
Dead by Tomorrow Podcast: http://deadxtomorrow.com
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What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
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You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles and give you the confidence you need to invest in the lives of others. You can mentor.
Speaker 2:This week on the podcast, we have Daniel Winter who is one of the hosts of a podcast called Dead by Tomorrow. He's actually siblings with Beth Winter, one of our hosts on the podcast. We hope you enjoy today's episode. If it gives you or your organization value, please let us know about it by sharing it with someone else so we actually don't need to know about it. Just someone else does.
Speaker 2:Thank you, You Can Mentor. Welcome back to the You Can Mentor podcast. My name is Steven. I'm here with my co host, Beth Winter.
Speaker 3:Hello.
Speaker 2:And a very special guest, her brother, Daniel Winter. Hi. Daniel, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. You have your own podcast. Please tell us about it.
Speaker 4:Sure. And I think you're asking me to tell the audience about it because do you know the name? Can you say the name properly? I just I have to ask. I just
Speaker 2:Dead by Tomorrow. Perfect.
Speaker 4:Nailed it.
Speaker 2:Dead by I said death by tomorrow, right, before. And I I guess it's because of Beth, death and Beth. You can't don't pin the sign. Well, that's there's an association happening in my subconscious somewhere.
Speaker 4:The loose association.
Speaker 2:But, yes, we we've been sitting here talking about death as a concept or a what what did you say? You said death is a
Speaker 4:Death is more of a concept. Dead is just a state of being. You're dead. You're not death. You're dead.
Speaker 2:So it's very it's very cut and dry, like like our mortality. So so what what is this podcast about?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So Dead by Tomorrow is a podcast where my friend, Andrew, and I really just take a mindset towards life and trying to think about, okay, when you die at the end of your life, you probably hope that there are going to be things that you've accomplished. You probably hope there'll be things that people would say about you. And so a lot of times you ask this question, if you were going to die tomorrow, you know, what would you do? And I feel like that question is kind of flawed because in reality, if you're gonna die tomorrow, there's not a lot you can do today that's gonna be super meaningful.
Speaker 4:Honestly, there there's not. If you're gonna die tomorrow, then, hopefully, what you would do is just, you know, spend time with the people that you love, maybe reap the benefits of, hopefully, a life well lived. And so that's kind of this concept is if you think about dying at some point in the future, it's probably not gonna be literally tomorrow, most likely, we hope. But we know that it's gonna happen at some point in time. And so if you want to, at the end of your life, be able to look back and say, okay.
Speaker 4:This was a life well lived. It's really important to find the things that you can be doing today to start moving you towards that. Don't put it off until tomorrow. You're not guaranteed tomorrow, so focus on some of those things that you can can be working on today. So it covers a lot of different topics that we just feel like are really important things to focus on now, like relationships, money.
Speaker 4:Like, there there there are so many things that we just think you should be a little bit more intentional about right now.
Speaker 2:I love it. And so it's it's not about dying. It's about living, like, truly living.
Speaker 3:Wow. That's good.
Speaker 2:Is that That's
Speaker 3:a new tagline, I think.
Speaker 2:It is. Yeah. You're welcome. You're welcome. Well, Daniel just came out with a book about his philosophy of life.
Speaker 2:Or do you make this a philosophy of death or a philosophy of life? I don't know.
Speaker 4:We the book is called oh, gosh. I should know. I'm a co author for it. I mean, the book's called Dead by Tomorrow. And I think our tagline is mindsets for living today or something along that line.
Speaker 4:Andrew worked real hard. Andrew Andrew did that part. I can claim coming up with the dead by tomorrow part.
Speaker 2:That's good. That's good.
Speaker 4:But it it is it is very much mindset focused, very much how you're approaching things. It's also focusing on this mindset again of thinking about these goals and these things that you wanna do. If you say tomorrow for it, that that means you're you're essentially putting it off to death. So don't put it off till tomorrow because that's how dreams die.
Speaker 2:That that is very true. Well, I I think one of the reasons we want you on the podcast today is I think that that that mindset is really important in the mentors that are serving kids from hard places and recognizing we're wanting to leave a legacy. We're wanting to do something that maybe is difficult, but is worth worth our time, that it's it's valuable. We're spending our lives in a valuable way that when we look back, we're not gonna regret the time we invested in children. So, Daniel, I I'd love just to well, I mean, maybe Beth.
Speaker 2:Beth, would you set up who who is Daniel as a brother, as a a human? Because right now, he just sounds like he's an existentialist. So could you give us a better framework for who this guy is?
Speaker 3:Great. Well, I've known Daniel for 28 years because that's how long I've been alive. He's my older brother. We also have a little sister, Christy. Shout out to Christy.
Speaker 3:She watches or she listens to this sometimes, not often. But Daniel just became a father.
Speaker 2:He Your family is, like, increasing our our downloads, like, by double. So really appreciate that winter family.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So Daniel just became a dad. He has a little girl named Riley. His wife is Hillary. They've lived here in Dallas for
Speaker 4:Almost 8 years.
Speaker 3:Almost 8 years. They're both Aggies. I can't relate, but they are both Aggies.
Speaker 2:Someone just came on the podcast, and they were dogging on the Aggies. Woah. It was it was rough. Was it me? No.
Speaker 2:It was Brad Fuller. Brad Fuller, I see you.
Speaker 3:I I relate. But, yeah, Daniel, like, to me, is just, like, he's been mentoring his whole life before he probably even knew what that word was. The the way that he lives is just, like, he's always he he's very passionate about learning things, about doing things, and he wants to bring other people into the experience of that. And so, like, literally since we were kids, like, he helped teach me how to talk. Like, he trained me up in how to speak literally.
Speaker 3:And so just the whole time I've known him, he's been mentoring. And so he's done that more in just through church and through discipleships, and he's done it through work. And I've just seen a lot of how you can live this corporate life and then also still, like, really make an impact in the world and be intentional. So
Speaker 2:Beth told me that you still have some friends that you were in elementary school with, which that that kinda means that you were a good guy if you're still friends with kids from elementary.
Speaker 4:Well, here's one problem with that. I was actually homeschooled most of elementary. It was me. I'm the one. I did.
Speaker 4:Okay. I did. Class of 3. I did go to public school starting in 5th grade, and my best friend at that time was named Brad Balki. He was he lived down the street from us, and he actually helped me to not be that awkward homeschool kid that kind of, you know, lives all of those stereotypes because Brad was, like, one of the the popular kids.
Speaker 4:And he lived down the street when we moved, and I became friends with him that summer. And we played basketball all the time. So when I went to school, I already had, like, a really good friend. What's crazy is so Beth and I are from Amarillo, Texas, not close to Dallas, not close to anything. That's my biggest gripe about it.
Speaker 4:But a month or 2 ago or actually, it was a few months ago, we moved to this new house in Dallas, and I was just out riding my bike. And then I got a random Facebook message from Brad Balki. And he was like, hey, man. Like, I haven't talked in a while, but do you, by chance, live in this neighborhood? And I was like, yeah.
Speaker 4:We just moved on to the street. And he was like, so did I. I live on the street like a few years over. And so then we, like, met up and played some basketball, and he's about to be a dad. And yeah.
Speaker 4:It's crazy.
Speaker 2:So cool. I love it. I I met up with a buddy of mine who he was always into the Mavs. Name was Ben. His name was.
Speaker 2:His name is. He's still alive. Dead by tomorrow.
Speaker 4:We're only gonna talk about people that have died on this podcast. I will.
Speaker 2:That would have been a great theme. But he loved the Mavs so much, and I didn't even think about him when I moved to Dallas. That that's sounds very rude.
Speaker 3:Sorry, Ben.
Speaker 2:But then I named my son Ben, and he was one of the first guys that texted me. And he was like, that's a great name. And he came over and, like, I put Ben in his arms and, like, within 3 seconds, he had spit up all over him. Nice. And it was amazing.
Speaker 2:It was awesome. So Ben Kendall, if you're out there, what what is that? There's a song. It's like you can't make old friends.
Speaker 3:I don't know. That must be an older millennial thing. Where are the younger millennials?
Speaker 2:It's another it's another Ben. It's another Ben. It's Ben Ben Ben Ben.
Speaker 4:Ben. Wait. Ben wrote the song?
Speaker 2:Yes. Not Ben Shapiro. Ben Rector. Ben Rector.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A song about old friends. I'll put it in the show notes. I don't I don't remember the song. But the song is about, like, you can only make new friends. You can't make old friends.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Like and that that's something that to think about is the relationships that we build. Nothing like old friends.
Speaker 4:Okay. That so that reminds me of, the situation where I have a really good friend named Sam Perminter, who we became friends I guess I was in high school. He might have been in middle school when we first became friends. And so over time, like, we continue to be friends throughout high school. I actually convinced him to come to Texas A&M.
Speaker 4:It was like a recruiting trip. He came down spring break, and he was convinced he was gonna stay in Amarillo, but I got him to come. His sister was there. We, like, ate at all the fried chicken places we could find, and he was sold on coming. So he came to A and M, was a roommate for a while, and he's just been a great friend for a long time.
Speaker 4:And it's been a very life giving relationship. And so when it came time to for him to get married, he he's one of these people that makes a ton of friends. He's a really likable guy. And, you know, we hadn't stayed in great communication at the point where he was getting married. And so he had a lot of guys that he was doing life with at the time.
Speaker 4:But he said, you know, hey, Daniel, I want you to be my best man because you've kind of seen a lot of where I've been before. You've seen, you know, who I was as a kid and kind of seen sort of the unfinished product. And these friends that I have right now are awesome, and I love these guys. But, like, they kinda see a different version of Sam. Like, you've seen all the versions of Sam Mhmm.
Speaker 4:And have been there, you know, with me that whole time. And so I thought that was really special that that it didn't make me cry at the time because I I hadn't had Riley yet. I I cry at the drop of a hat now. But
Speaker 3:It's true.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I I feel like that idea of the old friends, you know, somebody that who has invested in you, who knows you, and and hopefully has helped you to grow and and change for the better over time.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's something mentors necessarily think might be an important thing for them to help their mentees with, but making friends, like, helping them learn how to be a friend and make positive friendships, but like lifelong friendships. Our kids really need help with that. And, I mean, there are some practical things mentors could do to help with that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, relationships in general are are a tool, which sounds bad, because usually what what it's used is for the short term whatever I can get to become this manipulation game. Old friends don't work that way. Right. Like, you can't build old friends by using using them.
Speaker 2:And and, like, that is a skill that you have to learn, like Mhmm. There's no way Sam would ask you that if you hadn't shown trustworthiness, like, accepted him, like, every version of him, like you said, and and that the way we approach mentoring I mean, I I think it relates perfectly. Sometimes mentors do that. We manipulate the situation for the short term to get what we want. Case in point, financially, I can take a kid out to get 20 McNuggets and a thing at, a big coke.
Speaker 2:It's not gonna cost me anything. But for that kid, what I'm what I'm doing is, on the short term, I'm making him love me more.
Speaker 4:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it's it's con it's confusing the the system, if that makes sense. And the kid's gonna do his own version of that, but I'll use my money. I'll I'll use my money to manipulate you into liking me, and he'll do something else to get something from me. And, like, that's not how relationships should work. Like, have you ever started any relationships by doing something like that?
Speaker 2:My wife And do you still have those relationships?
Speaker 4:Somebody chicken nuggets. You know, we we we ate a lot of chicken nuggets in in college. But no Was there
Speaker 2:a friend that always you bought their chicken nuggets for them every time you went out?
Speaker 4:So I haven't personally had those type of friends. I've seen it, and it's something that I've always, you know, kind of found detestable, to be honest. And and Wow. The chicken nuggets or just the Oh, not not not the chicken nuggets. No.
Speaker 4:No. But I'm the kind of person that would call somebody out on that and and try to call them up to be something more. And and I think to me that that's an important part of friendship. Like, true friendship is somebody who is willing to say, like, hey, man, that's not cool. You know, what why don't you, like, get my lunch this time if that's an issue?
Speaker 4:Like, if it's creating a rub between the relationship, being willing to to call that out. And you don't get old friends unless you're willing to lean into some of that. Because with relationships, when you get close, you're gonna have friction. Like, the closer you are, the more opportunity there is for friction. And so relationships that become old relationships, you work through that well, and you are willing to be, humble where you need to be humble.
Speaker 4:You're willing to actually voice frustration where you need to voice frustration where it doesn't just become this rift that separates a friendship. And so that's why I think I have old friends because I'm willing to somebody like Andrew, who I've been friends with for years, I'm willing to say, like, hey, man. That that wasn't cool, or I don't feel great about this sort of thing. And and he's able to say, like, hey. Like, what's going on?
Speaker 4:I feel like something's off here. Like, he's willing to say that, and that takes some level of humility to be able to put yourself out there and vulnerability to do that. And so that's where I think there's a difference between what I would call friends and what I would call drinking buddies. Drinking buddies, they, like, make you feel kinda good about yourself. They, like, say sort of what you wanna hear as long as, like, we're there and, like, you know, we've got something to drink or we've got an activity to do.
Speaker 4:We can spend time together. But if we rub each other the wrong way, like, there's not any depth there, so it's not a big deal. I'll just find another drinking buddy.
Speaker 2:Wow. That's
Speaker 3:good. Do you have any, like, tips on how to help kids foster that those kinds of relationships?
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's hard because I, I think what I the way that I did it was a couple of things. So one, like, as cliche as it sounds, I think reading in the Bible and like reading about what it means to be a good Christian, reading about doing things like turning the other cheek, like offering forgiveness, like, those are all things that make up being a great friend. And so if you are choosing to live that out in your friendships, that's a great way to build those friendships. I think I also was really fortunate and blessed to have friends that were kind of doing some of those same things.
Speaker 4:And so, again, like Sam and Andrew are 2 friends that they were willing to dove in and have those conversations and and work through any differences and opinions that we may have had. I've had other friends where that wasn't the case. Right? It takes both parties being willing to work towards that. And so you can put your whole heart into a relationship and trying to, you know, work things out.
Speaker 4:But somebody else just they may not be there. And that can be really, really hard, especially for me, somebody who I just want everything to be restored and everybody to get along and everything to be all good, but I have to also accept at some points, like, that's not going to happen. I can pray about it. I can do all the work that I can do. Mhmm.
Speaker 4:But a certain point in time, you know, friendships do take both sides, being willing to to work on those things and being able to to lean into those things. Mhmm. And so as as a kid, that can be really hard to face that type of rejection if you put your heart out there
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And somebody is just not there.
Speaker 3:There was a kid crying about that literally yesterday. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And so as a kid, it's like there's advice that I would maybe give, but I don't know how well it would land. And it's on one hand, like, you don't necessarily know what's happening with that other person. It may not be you. It very likely is not you.
Speaker 4:If there's a rejection, they they're probably working through all their own stuff just like you are. That's pretty hard, I think, to understand as a kid. And it's also even hard to understand as an adult when you're in that moment and you're just hurt. And so that's where I think having somebody like a mentor that you can go and say, like, what happened here? And, like, you can process through some of that stuff with, you know, having a mentor, having a parent where you can do some of that.
Speaker 4:You know, somebody who is wiser and can tell you a little bit more of what is going on there, but then also help to reaffirm your value and who you are as a person and and, you know, help you to not fall into the cycle of, well, you know, if this person rejected me, I must be worthless, and nobody's gonna want to be my friend. So why even try?
Speaker 2:It feels as if the world is designed for us to learn by failure. That's a very depressing thought, but that we have to overcome failure and I mean, I I feel like I talked about evolution in one of these podcasts, and I'm sure there's someone that's, like, I don't know what, young earth or something, but but just thinking about, like, the the strongest things in our physiology are the things that ultimately overcame, like, the obstacles that our bodies faced, and so that's why we have nostrils or something. I don't I don't know the entire science behind it,
Speaker 3:but We'll put a disclaimer on this.
Speaker 2:Yes. I'm not a scientist. But for a for a kid, really having someone walk you through failures and not only walk you through failures and and encourage you and pick you back up, also giving you an example and helping like, the example allows you to reflect what what you're giving. So here's here's my thought, and, Daniel, you're the philosopher, so I'll just see if you you pick up with this. I think we are designed to be loved, but we don't come preprogrammed to love.
Speaker 2:There there is a natural bentness toward I long for connection, and that connection is to come to me, like, not me go to it, if that makes sense. And once it does, then I begin to learn from that how to reflect it back. And and, like, that's that's the gospel. That's Jesus coming to earth, coming to us, doing what we can't do, teaching us how to live that way, and reflecting it back to him. Like, that's that's, like, the deal.
Speaker 2:So mentoring is, like, kids who are made to be loved, long for that connection, want it, but have to learn through failure how to love, how to make friends, how to do all these things because more often than not, no one was there to teach or show them healthy ways to do that or a healthy space to fail. And so, like, a mentor creates both of those. It's like a healthy space to fail, like, because you're gonna burn your mentor if you've never had a mentor before. And if you've never had a mentor before, you're you're gonna burn your friends, probably. That's safe to say.
Speaker 2:And so I I don't know. That's that's just where my mind goes. It's like a mentor provides the safe place to fail as well as the example to reflect, and that both of those are huge components. Yeah. So I'd agree.
Speaker 2:I I think That's all I needed
Speaker 4:to hear. You could just say Well, I think you and I are both recent fathers, and so we see that Yes. From the beginning of life, it's babies are helpless. And yeah. Like, everything comes to them, and everything is about egocentric.
Speaker 4:Yes. And and, like, yeah, they smile. And, like, I have no doubt that Ben loves you. I have no doubt that Riley loves me, but they're very self centered and will be for a while. And it's up to us to teach them, you know, how to consider others.
Speaker 4:And I think that if you've ever tried to sort of learn something new and you're just trying to figure it out on your own, it's so hard and it's so frustrating. I'm sure we've all experienced moments where somebody comes in and is like, oh, just do it this way. And they've gone through it before, learned it before, whatever it is, and, like, what would have taken you hours and hours to figure something out? Like, somebody can come in and show you, and it becomes very clear very quickly. And so I do think that's the value of showing the way, whether that's mentors or that's parents.
Speaker 4:And I think another thing that's just really important to keep in mind as mentors for kids in hard places is that, you know, whether you're mentoring a kid who is 5 years old or 15 years old, they may have had 5 years or 15 years of sort of examples and shapings and influences that are not showing them what it's like to love, not showing them a safe place to fail, and to think that a relationship with you where maybe you're seeing somebody an hour a week, to think that after even a year of time, like, that's what, 52 hours across the course of their life, to think that that's gonna all of a sudden rewrite and change all of that instantly, that's just not reality. Like, that's just not how it works. You you've got so much to sort of help and overcome it, and it's possible. And I think it's amazing thinking about, you know, how much else is happening in in a kid from a hard place's life, whether it's at home, at school, whatever it is. Like, it's amazing how much difference a mentor can make with just an hour in a week.
Speaker 4:And I and I do think Yeah. That's something that I would see, you know, working with Kaleo is that there could be this sense of discouragement because we we'd have these kids for an hour and a half on Tuesday nights, sometimes.
Speaker 2:So explain this is through your church.
Speaker 4:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Kaleo is a program that we we ran through city church, where on Tuesday nights, we drive a van through a couple projects and load up whatever kids are interested in coming to the church, and we do some games. And we would typically do, you know, a song.
Speaker 4:We'd have some sort of lesson, some sort of snack. And so it's about an hour and a half and, you know, all volunteer basis just on on Tuesday nights after work. And I know I personally would feel this. I know a lot of our volunteers would just kind of feel some discouragement around, you know, just how unruly some of the kids are and how much it's like you sit and you talk about Jesus and and you say, like, don't hit her just because she said something rude to you. And you have, like, this conversation that seems to make so much sense to you, but you do it over and over again.
Speaker 4:It just doesn't seem to sink in. But, again, you've gotta remember that it just you're you're fighting such an uphill battle, but I can say that after doing that for several years, there were several kids where their behaviors did shift, and they did change, and they did start to be more considerate of others. They did start to ask some really amazing questions. They were paying attention. One thing I had to tell volunteers was that you cannot just have you you cannot expect that you're gonna have this orderly classroom where everybody sits and raises their hands and is quiet and orderly.
Speaker 4:Like, that's not gonna happen in a lesson if that's what you're after and that's the only way you're gonna feel like you're being successful. It's not gonna go well for you. Yes. There's a place for order and and discipline and, like, this is a space where we can teach the value of that, but pay attention sometime to the kid who seems like he's in no man's land, like, just totally not paying attention or cracking jokes the whole time. Ask him a couple of the questions on the things that you went over, and you'd be surprised how often they actually got it, like, that it actually sunk in.
Speaker 4:So a bit of a tangent there, but I think that's something that is important to think of with these kids in hard places is that our our paradigms, a lot of times as mentors, it's a little bit different. Our upbringing may have been different than theirs. You gotta respect that and remember that. And, again, you're just working through years years of an environment that is challenging, and so don't be discouraged if it takes time for those breakthroughs to happen. Actually, be really encouraged when you see any sort of change because that is a blessing and that and that's a miracle.
Speaker 3:So how like, for the mentor listening who might feel discouraged right now, how do you stay motivated whenever you're you're in that place like some of your volunteers were where it's just like, I don't see any fruit? How do you what what do you do in that situation?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I I think one thing I always do is I pray. I I know that, again, that's a Bible answer, but it's so true.
Speaker 3:Over spiritual.
Speaker 4:It's it's so true. Just kidding. It it makes it makes a world of difference just bringing it to the Lord, whether you're dealing with kids from hard places or whether you're dealing with a really tough work situation.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:There have been times where I've had sort of assignments and projects at work where it was just so draining, so hard. I felt like we were not getting anywhere. And I would finish up work, just get on my knees and pray, and that's what I needed to do to kind of be able to sort of release that and say, okay. I've done what I can do. I have to give some of this to the Lord.
Speaker 4:And so that's praying, I think, is a practical way to help you recognize that the success or failure of this mentor relationship is not fully reliant on me. God plays such a major part in that. Mhmm. And so I'm not saying, like, be a terrible mentor and pray and it'll all work out. Right?
Speaker 4:Like, there there's room there's room to reflect and and to seek counsel and say, like Yeah. Hey, are there approaches that I can changing? Are there things that I can be doing that are different? But I think a lot of mentors are probably in a place where they're really putting their heart into it. They're really, you know, doing all that can be expected and are still just kinda hitting a wall.
Speaker 4:And I think those are situations where it is. Pray and trust God and and just know that, like, there is, change that is likely happening under the surface that you're just not seeing yet, and I think that's where God can help to encourage us to continue on in those moments. You know, a mentor that's in that type of situation could also seek out counsel from other mentors that have gone through similar situations and have been doing it longer because they likely will to say, hey. I was right where you were, and, you know, maybe you're on the verge of a breakthrough, or maybe you're not. And but it's it's better it's better to know that.
Speaker 4:And so that that's something that I'm I'm a big believer in is take a look at the circle of influence that you have, the actions that are available to you, do those things That's within your control, and then don't don't get stressed out or get down on yourself on things that just are beyond your control. Those are things that pray about it. Seek the Lord on it.
Speaker 2:Now when you when you say pray about it, this is this is what's highlighted to me. It sounds like desperation and, like, handing it off to the Lord. It's not what I usually think about prayer is, like, God, I'm carrying this and, like, I need breakthrough and, like, I'm holding on to it and I'm trusting in faith that you're gonna do it. That kind of prayer sounds like, Lord, I'm handing this off to you. I can't bear this weight and and it you said the word releasing it.
Speaker 2:You're releasing it to him. That's not what I usually think of in prayer. I usually, like, try I'm trying to bolster myself to, like, hold on to it and and do it myself. It's like which that calls into question, am I really praying? Am I really giving it to the Lord?
Speaker 2:But I I mean, when I when I think about asking my mentors to pray for their kids, I'm not thinking about them handing it off to God. I'm thinking about them carrying the kid in their heart. Mhmm. But that's not that's not what I'm picking up from what you're saying in prayer.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, I think it depends on the situation. I I'm not saying, okay, mentor, like, you did your best, pray and then tell Steven, hey, I need another one. Like, you're not right. It's released him to the Lord. What what I'm saying is that there is some aspect of that relationship.
Speaker 4:There is some situation that you need to release. So maybe it's you have in your mind, like there is going to like we are gonna have this amazing relationship where it's so life giving, and they come to me, and they share their deepest, darkest secrets and all their really hard things. Mhmm. And I have the perfect answer for them. Like, obviously, I'm I'm exaggerating a little bit here, but I think a a lot of times when we feel that frustration, it's obviously our expectations are not being met in in what we have here.
Speaker 4:And so I think it may be it's more so releasing some of those expectations and saying, okay. Well, if this mentor relationship is going to just continue the way that it is, that's really hard. Like, I'm kinda releasing my expectations on that and and praying, like, god, like, this is my heart and where I would love for this to be, and and I need you to move for that to happen. But I'm okay with, you know, this continuing in this hard place and, like, I'm still here. I'm not giving up on this kid.
Speaker 4:And and I I maybe I have to let some of my ex expectations die here or see God move in order for that to be fulfilled. But I'm not fixating on that anymore. That's not what has to happen in order for me to, you know, feel okay about this situation.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It's really good. Yeah. I mean, it just makes me think of that. Come to me. All you are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My yoke is easy. My burden is light. And that it's not necessarily just releasing it to Jesus, and we're not still connected, but it's, like, who's the who's carrying the the lion's share of this thing? Am I doing it, and am I expecting myself to do it? Or because I I always heard that that that illustration, like, my my yoke is easy as in apparently mentorship happened between oxen Yeah.
Speaker 2:Back in the day too, where it was like an older ox would always be training a younger ox and how to carry the yoke or whatever whatever the thing the ox would carry. What is that? A plow? Sure. Because
Speaker 4:they would no drag a plow, but you'd have a yoke around their neck in order for them to
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Drag the plow.
Speaker 2:And so you would always be training a younger ox, but the the bigger ox was, like, carrying the larger
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Part of it. That's like the yoke is easy part of this life. We're still connected.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:But not responsible, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's good.
Speaker 2:So old friends, I I feel like that's a theme, particularly something that I see within our program that anytime a kid is acting out or is doing something they're not supposed to be doing, they know. They know, and there's, like, this moment of rejection, and it's always, like, the coach or the mentor or the adult has to pursue them into that moment and, like, fight for them to be restored. Like, the kid's not going to, like, you I don't know how many times you've experienced this, Beth, where a kid disrespected a coach, ran away, and then came back. It was like, coach Beth, you know what? 5 minutes ago, I am so sorry about what I did, and I would just love for you to forgive me.
Speaker 2:Would you forgive me? Has that happened?
Speaker 3:Not yet. But I believe the best about my boy. Hey.
Speaker 2:It's coming. Lord, we release it to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But so I guess my question is what's been what's been your experience in navigating those moments where you have a kid who, I guess, you said smacked somebody. I don't know if you have any other stories of kinda discipline moments where you're trying to restore a child, because I think that restoration is the thing that helps you remain friends, like, keep old friends.
Speaker 4:Yeah. With with kids and thinking back to this Kaleo program, it can be such a challenge. It can be so hard. And and, again, something we talk to volunteers about is these discipline moments are not fun. They're hard.
Speaker 4:They're awkward. And the but they're they're needed, and they can be these really major breakthrough moments for these kids because, again, it's it's showing an example of how something should be. Love and and showing love, like, that doesn't mean that there is no consequence. Like, sometimes the most loving thing to do is to provide correction and, again, to do it in a loving way. And so, you know, yeah, what we would have at times, like, somebody would get angry and would hit another kid.
Speaker 4:And the best thing for us to do in those types of moments was always to, you know, safely isolate where a mentor or a volunteer is getting to talk to that kid directly, and it's not in front of everybody else where there's, like, shame, like, oh, you're in trouble. Like
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:That is the easiest way for somebody to shut down. Finding a way to, you know, safely isolate and just talk through and to ask questions, I think that's a really important part of the discipline process of just asking the questions of, hey. What's going on? Like, why did you do that? It it seems like you're kinda having a rough time tonight.
Speaker 4:Like, what's going on? And when when you've built those relationships, you can even say things like like, hey. This isn't normal. Like, I I've seen I've seen you. You know, I've seen how you act.
Speaker 4:This is kinda outside of of the norm. What's going on here? And then pressing in and being intentional about asking some of those questions and, you know, hearing some of that and then kinda repeating back, like, you know, hey. What what are some of our our rules here? What are some of our expectations?
Speaker 4:Like, why is it not okay to do this thing? Like, just talking through that and trying to seek and impart some of that understanding, I think, is really valuable. And then you're you're kinda bringing back around to, you know, something I would always say at the end is, you know, hey. I'm I'm talking to you about this because I really care about you, and I love you, and I want you to be a part of this program. I want you to get along with everybody.
Speaker 4:I want you to have a good time, and this is what we're trying to do for that to happen. And sometimes that would work. I think it tends to work a little bit better with some of the older kids, but sometimes it wouldn't. And, you know, I would always say, you know, hey. If we can't if we can't behave like we're supposed to, if we can't follow these rules that are designed to help keep you safe, you know, here's what this next consequence is.
Speaker 4:I'm just saying, hey. Our our next consequences a lot of times it was, you know, hey. We we gotta take you back home, and then I'm gonna talk to your mom. And they never want that. No kid ever wants that.
Speaker 4:Nope. But some of those sweetest moments that I felt like we had is, you know, it did reach that point where, you know, kids just having a bad day. And that's the thing is so many times, it's not about what, you know, somebody said to them in the program. It's about what happened that morning that has carried on to what happened at school and has carried on to what happened there that night. And, you know, sometimes, like, it's just not a good night.
Speaker 4:And we talk about that on the way home and, you know, that's okay too. Like, it's not a loss and it's not a failure if you have to go through some of that discipline process, but I think it is a failure if there is maybe this conception that, you know what? Like, they're just a kid. They're not gonna understand why we're doing all this. They they're they're not gonna make that connection.
Speaker 4:I just need to enforce the rules, give them structure, and expect them to follow it. I I'm a big believer in the value in whatever age and trying to help somebody really, like, understand
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:The meaning behind something, whether they're 5 years old or, again, like, 15 years old.
Speaker 3:It's good.
Speaker 2:Intelligibility. Under intelligent understanding. Intelligibility is important.
Speaker 4:You're just gonna start listing listing out words.
Speaker 2:It's funny because I said intelligibility and y'all didn't know what I said. So, yeah, it's important. Like, I I mean, I even remember the first time I walked into church, and I was, like, why are we singing songs? Why Mhmm. This guy's screaming at me?
Speaker 2:With a microphone? Yeah. Why are they closing their eyes now? Like, all of these simple things that are normative to everyone else that goes to church all the time were completely foreign to me, and yet there was no explanation, like, no one was making it plain. And so it wasn't until I was in college that someone actually explained what was going on, like, oh, there's a god, and he's invisible and we love talking to him.
Speaker 2:And and even as I say that, like, you know, some people, like, that sounds stupid, but it's, like, for people that are unfamiliar, they're, like, oh, okay. That makes sense. Like and so for kids from hard places, a lot of that structure Yeah. Is absent. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so the why behind the rules really matters to communicate the why behind what you do.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. And I I think it's just trying to find ways to for you as a mentor to also kinda understand where they're coming from. I I know that there was an moment for me on some of that when, you know, we had a kid whose mom was, like, really upset with something that happened, and I saw firsthand kind of what her response was to feeling upset or frustrated or slighted about something. And that made this connection of, oh, you know what?
Speaker 4:Like, whenever, you know, Didi goes home and, like, he gets in trouble, there's there's not an explanation that comes with that. I I'm seeing, you know, kinda what's going on there, and I know it's because, you know, mom is working all day long. Like, she doesn't have time for that. That's a really hard situation. And so I just again, I think it's so easy to assume that others maybe have the same advantages that we had as a kid or that we have right now, the same understanding that we have right now, like your church example.
Speaker 4:You know, everybody else in the church probably totally understood what was going on and maybe didn't think for a second of, oh, you know what? Like, Steven doesn't have the same stuff in his head that I have in my head. This might seem weird to him. I should probably explain that. It's the same thing with with a kid of they may not have that explanation at home, and there may be a really good reason for that, and that's, a really crucial role that you can step in and and play.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like mentors or interpreters.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. Like, we have to kind of set that expectation in our after school program all the time of, like, it may not be defiance for this kid. He may just have never been told or never had had that expectation before. And so he's just gotta you've gotta give him some time to learn how to practice this this skill that we're expecting of them.
Speaker 3:Like, we do, for instance, a quiet time every Thursday with our boys in our program. And for so many of them, they may have never heard of a quiet time before. And so the expectation that a kid is going to sit quietly and like, try and hear from God and like, you know, draw what he's thinking about or his prayer or write it out. It's not gonna happen. Like, it's when it does, like, over a semester, it's beautiful.
Speaker 3:But right at the start, like, that may be completely new for a kid. And so to come in there, again, it's kinda like what you're saying, Daniel, of, like, thinking your kids are gonna, like, all raise their hand to talk and your classroom's gonna be perfectly orderly. That's not a realistic expectation. And so I think with with mentors, whenever you're teaching, whether it's like a new social skill or, like, maybe a habit that you were brought up knowing how to do, like, hold the door open or something as simple as that. If your kid doesn't do that, it doesn't mean they're rude.
Speaker 3:They may just have never been taught that before. And so I I think it's good to just, like, think about, like, this kid just might be untaught. It might not be a character flaw.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I know that before this conversation, we talked about motivation. A lot of kids when they're growing up and they don't understand something, what do they say? They say, why? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Why? Why? And, like, you get down into the inception of why. Like, well, we close the fridge because we don't want the food to go bad. Why?
Speaker 2:Well, if the food goes bad, then we're going to get sick. Why? Well, because there's bacteria and bacteria in our body, some of it's good, some of it's bad. Why? Well, God made us organisms that are really colonies of microorganisms and and you just keep going
Speaker 3:Props to you for continuing to answer the questions.
Speaker 2:If you have no motivation, you're not going to ask why. And so the confusion that you live within, you're not going to get clarity, and that's that's really what would bring you what you actually need. You can't get what you need. I mean, that's, like, every social problem you can think of. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And and so I'd love to hear you talk about motivation. Motivate us, Not don't motivate us, but but, like, how do you create motivation in in a in a human? Can you solve that?
Speaker 4:You know, what what I've been told and what I've read is that you don't create somebody's motivation. You just find what it already is because you are I we are motivated by different things, and and different people are motivated by different things. Right? Like, I am in Enneagram 3, so I am super motivated by achieving things, by crossing something off. Like, if you tell me that something needs to be done and there's some sort of, like, achievement goal sort of thing tied to it, especially if you can tie it to, hey, can you do this thing better than somebody else?
Speaker 4:Because I'm also very competitive. I'm going to be super motivated by that.
Speaker 3:But it's great being the little sister. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Beth is not going to be super motivated by that. And so I think it's it is trying to figure out what is gonna be motivational to somebody. And what's hard about this is I was able to articulate to you very clearly what motivates me, and and you could use that, and it'd be great. Not everybody is able to do that. Mhmm.
Speaker 4:My wife is a great example of somebody who struggles to articulate the things that she thinks and that she feels. It's not that they aren't there. It's not that she's not motivated by things, but that's just not her her natural bent. And so, you know, that's been a big part of our marriage relationship is, you know, having to figure some of that out, which was so foreign to me. Like, if you ask me my favorite thing, I can tell you my favorite across most things.
Speaker 4:I I may have to, like, expand a little bit, but I can talk through it. I can process it with you. If you ask
Speaker 2:me pastry.
Speaker 4:Favorite pastry, blueberry scone from White Rock Coffee.
Speaker 3:I knew that one.
Speaker 4:Get it almost almost every day. Yeah. But, man, you really threw me with that. Hillary But Hillary can't Hillary can't. Warren.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, it was it's always been easy to articulate that stuff.
Speaker 4:It hasn't always been easy for Hillary. And so we've had to work on that together. And I've had to ask questions. I've had to be patient with her, and I've had to be understanding when something that seems just so second nature and easy for me to say, like, it takes a little bit of work. But she's obviously naturally gifted in so many other ways where I may be just, like, quick to jump in to do things and, like, I I think a fault of mine is I just wanna check it off and cross it and call it done whether it's, like, really done well or not.
Speaker 4:Like, that's not Hillary. If she's doing something, she's gonna do it super well. Like, she is an architect and has to go through and kinda, like, approve all these different plans, like, make sure that it's all done right. And, like, that is her gifting and that is her skill. And so I think that it's important to sort of ask questions and process things through with people.
Speaker 4:And one thing that I try to do if I'm trying to help somebody maybe figure out how they're motivated if they don't already know and can't share that with me is we just talk about some of the things that they're good at, some of the things that they sort of get a life from. And so that can help in my job. I I don't do it every single week, but I often try to ask my seniors reflection questions. And maybe they hate me for it, maybe not. I don't really know.
Speaker 4:But one thing I ask them is, what is something about your job that you really like doing that, like, if you were working on it, you know, you you don't mind staying late. You get a lot of energy from it. Like, you look forward to doing this. If if I put it on your calendar, that's gonna be your favorite day of the week. What are those things?
Speaker 4:And also, what are the things that you hate doing? Where if I tell you you've gotta do this, then it makes the rest of your day really, really bad. And answering that question can help us to figure out a little bit more of what is more motivating to them and what is demotivating to them. So that's what I would say as far as motivation. It's kind of person to person.
Speaker 4:Some people really know it and are able to pop it off right off the top of their heads. Others don't. But some of the best ways to find it is to ask questions and to just kinda seek, like, what are the things that I naturally gravitate to that I'm I'm good at that I get life and I get energy from.
Speaker 2:There's, like, a really happy, energetic, extroverted mentor who's, like, up in your face and trying to motivate you, and the kid's an introvert. And, like, he's completely missing it. Like, the the design is, like, not just to be motivating, but, like, how do you motivate this kid? Mhmm. And, like, that that requires finesse and, like, what you're talking.
Speaker 2:It's digging.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's really good.
Speaker 4:And it can be small things. Right? Like like, with Hillary, again, it's just trying to help her see, like, this is something that when you do it, you light up, And and she may not have even realized it until we talk about it, and that can be the same with a kid. Like, maybe they love drawing, and so anytime they get the chance to do that, you know, they're they're excited about it. And you as a mentor can help them to discover that.
Speaker 4:It's something that maybe they never would have answered for themselves, but they can understand they can learn and discover sort of this passion, and then that can grow. What's cool about it is it can grow to also sort of be a part of an identity that they didn't know that they had, and I think that's something that's really sad to see as somebody who just feels like I I'm not good at anything. I'm not really driven by anything. Like, that is something that can easily lead to depression, to be honest. And I think, again, just kinda asking those questions, observing, and watching, you can really help with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. I think mentors, like, have such a a great position to see things in the kids that they may not see in themselves. Like, I know for me, I wasn't even a kid, but when I was trying to decide if I was moving to Dallas or not, I was really struggling with that decision because I loved my job in college ministry. And so I was talking it through with somebody that I trusted as a mentor.
Speaker 3:And whenever I was talking about, it's this, or I moved to Dallas, and my hopes of moving to Dallas was that I was gonna get to work with women and children. And she she said, well, I don't know if this helps. But when you talked about women and children, your whole face lit up. And that's something I couldn't see. All I'm looking is the pro con list right in front of me.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, what do I do? But my my mentor, this person who I trust as a mentor, was able to see something I couldn't. And so I think mentors sometimes are just, like, you you don't have to have this great you don't have to know all the Enneagram, all the, like, personality tests to help your kid. Maybe it's just, like, pay attention and be curious about what they light up about. Help them see it.
Speaker 2:That you you might see things that they don't see that actually are those things that they'll carry the rest of their life that motivates them to move forward and progress. Mhmm. That's legit.
Speaker 4:And that, by the way, is the definition of encouragement. I've been reading a lot about encouragement. I I want to do an encouragement seminar at work, and encouragement is so focused on calling out those, you know, that that process or that effort or that attribute more so than a result. And so just an example of that is if you have a kid that, again, like, they love drawing, be careful about saying, wow, like, Steven, that was an amazing drawing. That that's the greatest drawing that I have ever seen because you're encouraging that result and saying, hey, that drawing that you did, that is really good, and I will encourage you if what you do is good as opposed to saying something like, wow.
Speaker 4:Like, I I just really admire, like, how much work you're putting into that drawing and all, like, the detail that you're putting in, all the effort that you're putting into it. Even if it's, like, you look at the drawing, like, I I don't know what that is, but, obviously, you love it. Artist. I love it while you're I love seeing, like, how much joy you're getting from that and, like, that is a way you can again encourage somebody as opposed to just praising
Speaker 2:them. That's really good.
Speaker 3:That's good.
Speaker 2:Identity. Mhmm. Well, come out with that encouragement seminar. Why don't you?
Speaker 4:It's in the works. It's it's in a PowerPoint. There's it's all over the place right now. It'll be running
Speaker 2:in a couple of weeks. Any any other encouragements to kids from hard places, things that have that you've seen that have been beneficial in those relationships? I don't I don't know if our listeners are out picking up kids in a van, taking them to a place where they punch each other, and then distributing discipline. Maybe some of them are, but would would love to hear.
Speaker 4:I I think something that y'all have said
Speaker 2:I'm sure Kaleo was a lot better than that, by the way. I'm just
Speaker 4:No. That's that's a pretty pretty good summary. Something I've heard y'all say before, but I just think it's so true. It's just showing up is so important, and it's something that I'm always mindful of. I I'm somebody that commitments really matter to me.
Speaker 4:And so if I say I'm gonna do something, I'm going to do it. And it's to the point where I won't do something if I think there is a chance that I can't follow through on it, and and maybe I need to stretch myself more there. But that's that's a whole another thing. But something that I've heard y'all say that I also remember in a SOS, so that's Save Our Streets Ministry that, takes place in Bryan College Station, something that they talked about was just the importance of that consistency. And so, you know, if you can be the one thing in a kid's life where they can count on, like, Steven's gonna come pick me up on Tuesday, and we're gonna go get a bagel, and I'm gonna sit there in silence while he asks me 500 questions, and then I'm gonna drop him off.
Speaker 2:Wow. Accurate.
Speaker 3:He's been following you around. It's actually tacos on Wednesday night.
Speaker 4:It's close. But, no, that that consistency is so important because that may be the one really consistent thing in their life that they can count on. And again, that's something where you may not realize the impact while they're sitting there silently giving you yes, no answers to the questions where they can, but they may really, really value that. So I think that's important for everybody, but especially for kids from hard places who maybe don't have a lot of consistency in their lives.
Speaker 2:Co author, co host of Dead by Tomorrow, that is Daniel Winter, the brother of Beth Winter. Thank you for joining us, Daniel. This is awesome. If anyone wants to check out your podcast, I mean, I guess they they they know how to find it now. The search Dead Buy Tomorrow.
Speaker 4:Search Dead Buy Tomorrow, or you can go to deadxtomorrow.com.
Speaker 2:Deadxtomorrow.com. It's awesome. Thanks for listening, listeners. This was fun. You did your job.