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You became a coach to help people — but no one told you how to build the business behind it.
Coach as Entrepreneur is the show for coaches who want to go beyond referrals and create a real business that supports both their clients and their family. Each episode explores the systems, strategies, and stories that help coaches simplify marketing, attract the right clients, and grow sustainably, without burning out.
Whether you’re just starting or looking to scale, this is your roadmap to running your coaching practice like a business… and doing it with heart.
Build the system. Serve your clients. Support your family.
Sam Chia
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David Chung: [00:00:00] You became a coach to help people, but no one told you how to build the business behind it. Welcome to Coach as Entrepreneur, the show for coaches building real businesses with systems strategy and heart build the systems, [00:00:15] serve your clients, and support your family.
Today we get to talk with Sam Chia, a seasoned leadership coach with over 35 years in corporate leadership, including VP and MD roles across Fortune five hundreds, government [00:00:30] and nonprofits, and brings deep insight from his ACC a MBA and Harvard training. Sam is also a ICF PCC coach and co-author of two books on coaching in Asia.
Sam, [00:00:45] thank you for joining us today.
sam: Thank you. Thank you
David Chung: so Sam, just so everybody also knows, you are currently in Singapore.
sam: Yes. I'm based in Singapore actually.
David Chung: And I think you are our first coach from Singapore, so are you today in terms of your [00:01:00] company and what's the style of coaching that you're doing these days?
sam: Okay. My company I've set up is almost a decade actually. Yeah. So I've been running this coaching business for more than 10 years. Of course prior to that, [00:01:15] as you mentioned, I have spent about 35 years in corporates and my role with the corporates, are quite, diversified in a sense.
My last role, I was a regional VP looking after a region, so I basically running the business and, my early [00:01:30] part of my career, I'm finance trained, so focusing more on the numbers. So it's been a journey for the last 10 years running a coach business.
David Chung: So you're primarily working with executives or are you working with other levels as [00:01:45] well?
sam: I would be both executive and the leadership where they define leadership, in the extent that my segments are more the big management and above.
David Chung: Okay. And just to get a [00:02:00] clearer picture of where you came from, what were you doing before you got into coaching? I guess almost a decade ago.
sam: I was running a regional business. It's a quite interesting journey when I introduced to coaching. I was [00:02:15] running a regional business and I travel almost like 60, 70% of my time. every time I came back to my office, I see my team queuing up to see me just like going to the clinics. [00:02:30] Basically two broad issue. One, they have a problem to solve, and second, they have a decision to make and they want my Walkman. So I was trying to look at is that a better way to work with my team so that they don't have to wait [00:02:45] for me? And I, came across coaching, as one of the in-house program leadership as coach, those kind of programs. after learning that some of the techniques and skills, I basically changed my approach to work [00:03:00] with my team. instead of, a lot of, helping, telling, provide guidance. I can't change ask a lot of questions. I find that that works very, very well because, they become more aware that, I'm [00:03:15] going to ask many challenging questions, when they see me.
So they become more prepared. by the time they come to meet me, they already have certain ideas and the conversation help them to, reassure them.
David Chung: Right?
sam: that it's quite amazed, you know, [00:03:30] the coaching approach that come open up my way of working, you know, using the coaching approach actually.
David Chung: So then, because you were doing so much traveling and because of the people at your home office, when you had to work with [00:03:45] them, you had to figure out a better way to work with them. So that was actually your Introduction into coaching. Is that correct?
sam: Yes,
David Chung: And
sam: I was curious actually.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: it looks simple, you know, by just changing the style, but it was impactful. I see that the queue is shorter. [00:04:00] basically they kind of solve their own problems before they come and see me. And the second is I find that they learn faster
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: So I become curious and that's where I go deeper to understand coaching a little bit more.
David Chung: Right?
sam: to attend some coaching programs,
David Chung: [00:04:15] Mm-hmm.
sam: coaching programs to learn more some of the techniques and the psychology behind.
David Chung: I see. And so then as you were trying to learn how to help them and work with them better, just for your personal needs, you delve [00:04:30] into more and more of coaching.
sam: Yes,
David Chung: So then when you, as you're doing that, what was that turning point where you decided, I think I really like coaching. I wanna pursue this and leave. The corporate [00:04:45] world. What was that situation there?
sam: Well, I would say the transition, not something planned. you know, that transition. I kind of love the coaching approach. And it works well, you
using it in my corporate [00:05:00] role, but I never thought of, moving up run the coaching business at that point because I'm running well, the things are moving well. by then life is not constant. Things change, So [00:05:15] even you have a very nice organization, beautiful culture. Then some acquisition happened, things change. The whole organization change, culture change, leadership change. And that begins to trigger my thoughts that, hey, in the corporate world, this is the kind of [00:05:30] the things that you have to face.
Is this something that I can be more, in control? That's where
David Chung: Mm.
sam: of running a business, my own business
David Chung: So you moved into the idea of becoming a coach
sam: yeah.
David Chung: [00:05:45] willingly, knowing that you kind of have to also run your own business.
sam: yes, I had that business background,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: to run a business. and of course people always ask me this question, why? Coaching, I can run many. [00:06:00] my corporate business, I'm selling specialty chemicals.
David Chung: Right,
sam: many different business
David Chung: right.
sam: Yeah. And that is the things that, I always sit back and reflect in my whole corporate journey, the greatest satisfaction. Well, what do I take away from my whole corporate life?
David Chung: [00:06:15] Mm-hmm.
sam: And I realized, so how much money I make for the organization is how many people. I have a groom actually, that is the greatest satisfaction, that I have. And that's the reason why when I move out, come naturally [00:06:30] coaching
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: this is, that I've running.
David Chung: I see. So even though you could probably have been making more money running an organization or, doing sales for another organization, you [00:06:45] decided to jump into this coaching world because you love people and you love working with them and seeing them grow.
Is that correct?
sam: Yes. for someone who is so excited and passionate about [00:07:00] coaching, the first thought is know, I can reach out more people. I can help more people.
David Chung: Right.
sam: natural
David Chung: Right,
sam: I help all my leaders that the scope is very narrow. I think when I can reach out more people.
So very simple thoughts, you know, when we move [00:07:15] out as a coach But of course, it's bigger than what we think
David Chung: right,
sam: right?
David Chung: But I think that's wonderful in that many of the coaches that I've met and talked with,
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: they all are kind of similar in the way that they want [00:07:30] to help people. Right. They, even though they could stay in their corporate positions and honestly probably just comfortably make money, I.
they decide to go into this whole coaching [00:07:45] world, which is, you know, as you know, right? It's you're running your own business. So then if you're running your own business, if you are by yourself as a solo, solo business owner, you have to do everything right?
So from the marketing to [00:08:00] sales to follow up and finance and every so everything, right?
sam: I think you are spot on. Know lot of coaches. We are so passionate about coaching. The first thing we thought of, hey. There's something I can do more, you know, helping more people when [00:08:15] out of the corporate
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: Because sometimes corporate, we still bump into some because of certain circumstances. So, a lot of coaches was really just inclined to move out, you know, to, to help more people. But the reality is you still have to [00:08:30] run the business to survive beside helping people. That
David Chung: Right.
sam: the reality that we, have to face, eh?
David Chung: I wonder what it is because many of the coaches, again, that I've talked to, and I'm sure that you've met also have business backgrounds. [00:08:45] And where is the, is it, is it because it's more of a passion thing where you, you have a purpose that you not, maybe they kind of forget, like, we need to really focus and push on the business side?
Or [00:09:00] is it just, where do you think the disconnect is sometimes for some coaches where they are, they want to coach, but they also need to build a business. Where do you think, The difficulty lies, especially for those people who are, [00:09:15] who are aware of like, like yourself. Like if I wanna run a business, if I want to be able to make money while I help people, how do I do that?
sam: Okay. we run a business in the corporate world. we have, I say, a lot of resources.
David Chung: [00:09:30] Hmm.
sam: I have the whole team of the whole marketing sales people to do all the nitty gritty, right?
David Chung: Right.
sam: and also we have a big brand behind us. people are more willing to see us because of the brand. we call up [00:09:45] someone, people are always willing to meet us because of a role we are of a multinationals, and people are very open to see you the relative when you're out your own. these functions where the marketing, accounting, all this detail, you have to do it [00:10:00] yourself. it kind of a bit struggle because you don't have the depth of
David Chung: Right.
the function
sam: of people who's doing their role. They can do that more effectively because are totally in the different role,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: what challenge that you have to handle multiple functions. [00:10:15] second, I guess is the biggest, I would say. Disappointment to me, in a sense, is the branding, right? When you are out, you no longer have a brand behind
David Chung: Hmm.
sam: people are kind of cold
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: you have the position, people are more willing to talk [00:10:30] to you,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: So that is a little bit of, surprise to embark on this journey.
David Chung: Yeah, I can kind of understand that, right? if you're used to, like, for instance, if you're used to driving like [00:10:45] a Porsche or a Rolls Royce,
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: you kind of just very comfortable driving a really well recognized car. And people will probably give you a lot more space as you drive down the road because it's, everyone knows it's expensive, right?[00:11:00]
And that's kind of like, if you're working for corporate, people give you a certain amount of, deference, right? Like they will, if you come and say, I work for a, B, C company like Fortune 100, fortune 500, everyone [00:11:15] recognizes that brand. And so they will see you and be like, oh yeah, let's, of course, let's have a conversation.
But then when you make that switch, it's kind of like you went from the portion, the Rolls Royce down to, you know. you're driving like a Honda or a Ford and [00:11:30] it's still, it's okay, but it's not the luxury level brand that you're used to. And I guess it's, there is a, if you're so used to working here and then you're suddenly people see you here.
It's, I guess there is a shift [00:11:45] in that beyond just the resources thing too. that's a really good insight I think, 'cause unless you're doing a lot of reflection or you've had spent a lot of time with other people, [00:12:00] it's not something that you might recognize right off when you're going into coaching.
That if you're used to being part of a Fortune 500, fortune 100 company or multinational, that's well recognized. And then now you're working as a solo. People [00:12:15] don't necessarily give you the same time and space as they did before.
sam: Basically a little bit of
David Chung: Hmm
sam: identity crisis in a sense,
David Chung: hmm.
sam: And in addition to the multitasking kind of roles
David Chung: Right,
sam: to sit on,
David Chung: right. The business [00:12:30] development side of things. Right, because you need to, now, as you said, you don't have the resources that you did before, which was, a marketing team, a sales team, a designer, all these other functions, you don't have access [00:12:45] to this. Now you have to think about that for yourself.
sam: Right, right.
David Chung: So how did you get into like figuring out those pieces for your business then? at the beginning?
sam: It's a lot of, time [00:13:00] invested to relearn, pick up some of the skills in terms of selling a coaching business. It's very different from selling a product. You're selling a services too, especially, again, you're selling a coaching business where people have little [00:13:15] knowledge about that.
David Chung: Right.
sam: a lot of learning to understand the whole selling process
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: this cloud Services too. That's where I spend time learning how to create my own website, creating my own [00:13:30] funnel. though I enjoy the process, but that won't give you the dollar,
David Chung: Right.
sam: Yeah. I enjoy those learning, but it is, you have to invest a lot of time to build up that foundation.
The infrastructure for the business, actually.
David Chung: building up the [00:13:45] brand and the assets that go along with that, for your coaching business.
sam: Yes.
David Chung: So as you were starting out in your coaching journey, did you have any, key mentors or learning experiences that helped shape the path that you are [00:14:00] on now?
sam: yes, certainly. You know, when I first started, you know, when I left corporate, I did not jump directly purely at coaching. Kind of involved with a bit of human resource consulting
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: where we do a bit of training, a [00:14:15] bit of, coaching, at that time. I'm still a very fresh coach in a sense.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: some projects we do hire experience coaches. so we do subcontract out to some of these experience coaches. I learn, together with [00:14:30] them when the
David Chung: Right.
sam: running that coaching I'm the one, you know, building a bit of a business. So I learned the coaching techniques, the coaching process.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: are some pretty good coaches that I do model.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: them [00:14:45] too.
David Chung: would you say learning from others who have been in the shoes that you're trying to walk in, was that helpful for you then, or?
sam: It is certainly helpful, because selling and running a coaching business is so different
David Chung: [00:15:00] Mm-hmm.
sam: we do. I mean, even in the corporate, we run a business, we sell a product, but the whole process is so different. we are selling, something a little bit intangible in a sense. You know, people
David Chung: Right.
don't
sam: recognize [00:15:15] it,
David Chung: Right.
sam: have to really have certain, branding people before people buy you,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: so, it is extra effort that you need to build.
David Chung: Right. Yeah. how do you sell coaching as an easy way for [00:15:30] businesses and leaders to understand, right. What are the KPIs for your leadership growth? How do you, how do you measure something like that? it is definitely more difficult.
sam: suddenly when first starting out just building a coach, of course I do step my own, [00:15:45] the number of people I like to coach,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: relative, when you starting new, need to do more than just coaching to reach out. So I do run some leadership development programs, which, I was trained to run [00:16:00] some bit of training that helps to, you know, open up the doors
David Chung: Right,
sam: HR and all, because training is much more tangible. People can see.
David Chung: it's also a service that, larger organizations understand and [00:16:15] recognize. It's like HR training. we know organizations have had that for so long
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: not really a difficult thing to explain.
sam: Yes,
why do we need a refrigerator in the kitchen so we can keep the food cold
Right?
David Chung: Why do we [00:16:30] need coaching or training for h within the hr? It's because we need to keep, make sure people are doing the right things, whatever those right things are so.
sam: In fact, when I started coaching is so new. People hardly heard about coaching, you know, [00:16:45] so people will have budget for training, but they have no budget for coaching.
David Chung: Right.
sam: to share more about coaching.
David Chung: you even had a heart more difficult time because if people didn't even understand what coaching is,
sam: Yeah.
David Chung: [00:17:00] they would, I mean, when you told people you were a coach, when you were starting out, did they ask like what sport?
sam: of course, the first thing they relate is always the sports, right?
David Chung: Right,
sam: And as we explain more, they kind of relate a little bit more
David Chung: right.
sam: someone's very experienced to guide [00:17:15] their people so that is the understanding of coaching in the early years actually.
David Chung: Yeah. And it's, I think that's where like coaching comes from, right? Because it's athletes. Who are, like, if you think about like [00:17:30] Michael Jordan, tiger Woods, all of these people had their own personal coaches, but for them to perform and to be the best at what they were doing, they needed to continually work and grow and develop those skills.
And [00:17:45] that's why you have a coach to help you to develop those skills. can I ask you, as you have been coaching for the last decade plus, what have you found most rewarding about the work that you've been doing now?
sam: one of the reason [00:18:00] why, you know, compared with training and coaching, I can't focus more on coaching, is because of the, we can see the transformation, right?
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: coming for training, just two days, they gone, you can't see the impact that you have been building. So a coaching, [00:18:15] typically client will be better, six to 12 months, and we can see the transformation.
And that is the satisfaction you can see the change.
David Chung: Mm.
sam: they can extra courage to move on to whatever they want to do.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: I wish the most [00:18:30] joyful part is, you know, after even the left coaching and got my promotion that we discussed,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: year.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: the satisfaction, the joy we have as a coach, I think.
David Chung: That's wonderful. to be part of people's lives as they're developing and growing and [00:18:45] then helping them to succeed. I think that's fantastic. do you also work with, people who have just been promoted into these managerial roles for the first time?
sam: Yeah. Yeah. It's quite common too. to help in the [00:19:00] transition of their dual roles.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: Yes, we do.
David Chung: So when people are being moved into these new roles for the first time, having to be a manager in an organization, what are some of the common problems that these people are facing? Because obviously they're [00:19:15] smart because they're being promoted. but they're often very intelligent in a specific subject.
Right. Very technical subject, but now they have to work with people. And so what are some of the common issues that [00:19:30] you have seen, coming up for these new managers and people taking on people management roles?
sam: Well, it's a very common, I see a lot of this, promotions, you know, especially very good engineers, very good [00:19:45] finance guy, and then put them into a managerial role. So from an individual contributor where they perform extremely well they promoted and they struggle. it's always start with the mindset.
David Chung: [00:20:00] Mm-hmm.
sam: because as the individual contributor, especially the technical role, they're very structured. they have a process to follow. And when you start leading a team, you're dealing with people human, [00:20:15] which is much more complex. Then a process and a system. That's where they gotta shop, And they begin to struggle, with working with people actually.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: it is, important. I always start with the [00:20:30] mindset to let them understand that the switch, you no longer do things on your own.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: on others
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: things done. So that's the first mindset you need to get them, you know, to switch. If [00:20:45] not, then it's faster. I do it myself. get them more effective, faster, but it killed the game. But now at the end,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: so is that mindset that first thing I have to help them to switch? Yeah.
David Chung: That's so [00:21:00] interesting. yeah. 'cause it's when you get somebody who's been doing a position, a job for a long time. Yeah, you're right. they're very good at their position in that job.
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: then having somebody else come [00:21:15] in, having them try to train or manage somebody who can't do that job,
sam: Yeah,
David Chung: That's gonna
sam: go is struggle. It is not easy letting go.
David Chung: are you focusing on helping them to learn how to let it go? Or is it like the [00:21:30] whole mindset thing, right? Is it letting go or learning to trust people? what is the mindset that needs adjustment?
sam: Yeah, I think you just mentioned a few [00:21:45] important elements. the trust, the ability to let go, mindset first they have to accept, I'm going to depend on this person to do this job. I think that's first thing they have to accept and to do that job well, he has to [00:22:00] focus on this person rather than the task.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: So if they have that mindset right, they will focusing on the person helping this person to grow, to speed up [00:22:15] capabilities. If not, he will still, always jump back to the result, the outcome. you see that things are not right, he just check in and the more you check in you, you can't create a distrust. my boss don't trust me. He always, Talk to my people, he always jump in. [00:22:30] So you need to have the balance of
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: people to grow while maintaining the results. So that struggle, the dynamic of struggle, but mindset is really about focusing on people. How fast you can get this person to do the job [00:22:45] well.
David Chung: Right. do you have any examples or stories where you were working with somebody and you were trying to help them to do this mindset shift, [00:23:00] but they just weren't getting it, and they just kept butting in and creating, as you said, like distrust within their teams?
sam: it's common in the early, early stage because to do a switch, you know, just like a bit [00:23:15] change is not easy.
David Chung: Right.
sam: you don't just overnight, trust this person to do the job for me.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: go to a process of building up a little bit. So some are a little bit more cautious, you know, in terms of letting go.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: a longer time [00:23:30] to
David Chung: Right.
sam: to build that trust, to build that relationship.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: but sometimes people fumble because they're not
David Chung: Mm
sam: again, the backfired and that create a little bit of a confidence issue.
David Chung: mm
sam: hold [00:23:45] back.
David Chung: Right.
sam: a struggle in the early stage of that dynamics of letting go and,
David Chung: I see.
sam: having the people, doing that.
David Chung: So,
sam: is we are there to facilitate the support, give [00:24:00] them that confidence,
David Chung: right.
sam: helping them to.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: let's find this to work.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: we are there to hold their hand a little bit in the early
David Chung: Right. So how [00:24:15] long.
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: How long do you think it generally takes you when you're working with a new manager
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: get them to a place where they can kind of start to feel like they trust their team and they can let [00:24:30] go? I mean, obviously everybody is different and their experiences and capabilities are different, but in general, how long do you feel like it takes you to, on average, to work with a leader to get there?
sam: [00:24:45] Okay. everyone is different.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: I will group that those who are more willing to learn, who are more open, whether they call that grow mindset because they are leaders who are a little bit more, cautious. There are some who [00:25:00] are more willing to try things. So those who are willing to try, who are willing to experiment, with the support of coach, I believe kind of six months, three to six months journey,
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: be more confidence because during this [00:25:15] process, we are not only equipped them with the mindset, of course, with a little bit of skill sets too.
David Chung: sure.
sam: They learn best practices about empowerment,
So I believe three to six months is something viable.
David Chung: Mm-hmm. so [00:25:30] what about the people who are less inclined to,
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: to move quickly?
sam: up to be a leaders
David Chung: Right.
sam: They begin to have that thoughts.
we continue to work on the mindset,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: to, to build the confidence and help them to see the [00:25:45] potential, you know, as a leader, you can grow much wider in terms of scope rather than technical
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: contributors in terms of the scope might be a bit more limited. it's up to that individual, you know, if he want to grow [00:26:00] in his career. I think he, he's prepared to try,
David Chung: Right. Have you ever worked with one, one leader who just wasn't willing to try?
sam: they, there are some who tried but, couldn't work it, you know, it's again, the personal interest.
David Chung: [00:26:15] Right.
sam: they enjoy a lot more on the technical part of the business, and as we discussed, we also help them to understand about themselves in terms of what is best fit for his own, his interest, his passion, the alignment. [00:26:30] You find that it's towards the technical route.
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: to
David Chung: yeah,
sam: Whether that the leadership,
David Chung: I see. does that take long to figure that out, or can you do that relatively quickly?
sam: It can't be quick. Again, [00:26:45] you know, they create
David Chung: Sure.
sam: I would say typically a three to six month,
David Chung: Okay.
sam: we meet at least, once every two months, easily a couple of sessions to create the
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: to have the awareness.
David Chung: So what I'm, because Yeah, so what I'm hearing is [00:27:00] depending on that the leader you're working with and how self-aware they are of who they are as a person and their willingness to. To change or to develop themselves. They could be very successful in that [00:27:15] new role within three to six months while working with you, or maybe within that three to six month time, they'll understand, actually, I don't like doing this and I would rather just go back to my old function.
Is that That's correct.
sam: Yeah. [00:27:30] In fact, even that three to six months, I will say, you know, he do develop himself by having the awareness. He has better clarity on his own career direction. Actually.
David Chung: Right,
sam: as a leader,
David Chung: right.
sam: as individual, I think they will [00:27:45] still progress in the career.
They have the clarity, this is something I'm gonna work on.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: have that root of success on their own.
David Chung: Yeah. So it's still successful for them. Ultimately, it's just not necessarily the way they were expecting.
sam: the [00:28:00] role actually. most of the time they, they are just put into the role without
David Chung: Right,
sam: the deep consideration,
David Chung: because just the way you framed it is they're just put into that role without deep consideration. Is that, is that a [00:28:15] part of, do you think that's because of the organization that they just said, Hey, this guy's been doing really well and let's just throw him into the deep end with management? Or is it the person who's like, oh, I need a [00:28:30] change and I think management's my thing.
What is it? how do they kind of just get promoted and then be put into this position?
sam: Okay. good, good questions. the key things is really about [00:28:45] career development. You
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: about career development. I think most individual in the corporate settings, historically, they depend a lot on the companies, you know, helping them to shape their career. You
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: after a few [00:29:00] years they get promoted, the deal level, they get promoted.
David Chung: Okay.
sam: Kind of approach. They, they kind of, a bit dependent on the organization.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: why they're sort of put into the various opportunities as they grow along rather than, because [00:29:15] they don't have the awareness about themself.
David Chung: I see.
sam: So will say that, even especially in the current, the new world, people need to understand their own career development, take a little bit more control
career [00:29:30] development.
What do I really want, dunno what they don't know, right? So
David Chung: Right.
sam: I think it's important too, while we, we help them to grow in their role, we also help them to understand a little bit about themselves in terms of their own career aspiration. [00:29:45] You know, what do they really want in their career?
David Chung: Actually, this is something that's been coming up that's very interesting to me too, right? Is because it, as well as with coaches, in terms of, as a coach, where do you wanna see that in the next, you know, five to 10 years [00:30:00] potentially, but with what Coaches also being human beings.
people in general should take more time to reflect on where is it that I want to go? Leaders who are developing Their careers should take the time to think about where is it that I [00:30:15] want to go and take time to reflect on that.
I think that we are
inundated by either media or the culture of the world, of, [00:30:30] of just the way things are where we get into a job and it's go in, do the job, get promoted, go up, up, up the food chain, and then eventually become manager and then shoot for VP or senior VP or, you know, [00:30:45] CEO, whatever your vision of your future is, but not necessarily thinking about or taking time to sit and reflect on.
This was where I was thinking about does this, does this really fit me or not? Are we just [00:31:00] running for. Whatever culture, society, media tells us is success, or are we really looking to become successful in a way that matches who we are?
sam: in the old ways, you know,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: may not [00:31:15] know, but then someone along the way guide them don't get promoted and promoted. But in the current real world now, you know, structure has become so much flatter. We no longer have so many layers. So opportunity what they can grow is so [00:31:30] different compared with, with the earlier years. So the, the whole dynamics of, of growing in the organization is so different. In fact, in the past company, I'm not willing to talk about career development as much, [00:31:45] because they afraid that, you know, creating more awareness, they leave to do something that they, they want, so they, they can't hold back the top of career development. But now I think many organization is promoting, you know, [00:32:00] helping their team. They have kind of awareness, more awareness about career development, actually. because they, they know that there's, they cannot guarantee them this is a promotion. having the awareness of the career development, at least the organization can play a role [00:32:15] in their growth. You know, creating opportunity for them to learn and grow same time, but without that position in mind. Yeah. But it's still helping them to grow, you know, to retain them, to actually, so the, the, the whole dynamics have changed. Yeah. [00:32:30] So again, as a coach, we have to help our people, you know, that our clients to move forward beside, you know, being just, leaders moving forward. helping to have that awareness that moving forward in their life too, actually. Yeah.
David Chung: Thank you. Sam, [00:32:45] that was, I'm really pulling in some new insights and things about, I haven't thought about some of these things We should be really thinking about reflecting on where is it that we want to go and what kind of people do we want to be and where do we want our careers to [00:33:00] go?
and how the coach plays a role in that. Either you helping them to become better leaders, or you're helping them to recognize maybe this isn't what you really wanted and maybe what you want, is to go back to doing what it was you were doing [00:33:15] before. That's really insightful and I think very important because sometimes I feel like if you're given a role, you kind of just say, okay, my job here is to make this person a better leader. It doesn't matter. Maybe [00:33:30] they don't want to be a better leader. that's my job.
sam: yeah.
that comes back to coaches too. Like, you know, many people just wants to be a coach without thinking through. Is that a long term career that you know, I mean, you want [00:33:45] to have, you want help people? I mean, There's still many ways to help people, but
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: coaching is right. for you to do.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: sometimes people do not think deep enough.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: they just say, oh, coaching, I can reach out. They just jump out. And [00:34:00] sometimes that's where, it, create a lot of disappointment by taking that decision, know, without thinking, without preparations actually.
David Chung: I think, and that's really important because I think we do see a lot of people getting into the coaching industry [00:34:15] now more than, you know, five, 10 years ago where. they see coaching and they think, oh, this is a good way to make some money, and this is a good way to help people without fully understanding the implications of you're [00:34:30] starting a business.
Right. when it comes to building a business, in our previous conversations, you are running your own business as a solo coach currently, but you are also working within a team or like [00:34:45] a collaborative group, correct?
sam: Yes, in fact, this is the business model, I learned from a hard way.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: I used to run, like I shared with you, running a consulting business. I have a full-time 15 consultant, [00:35:00] engaged, full-time consultant. And again, you know, running a business with, full-time employees is always a lot of balancing act, you know, you have a heavy
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: You just sing into that old heads, you know? So as I, I kind of [00:35:15] learned in the process, I find that that should not be the right model for coaches. So I begin to, let's say, move up from that so-called the business model to be a solo premier.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: I run alone. I have a pool of very close associates who have [00:35:30] different expertise, where we work together for, larger projects and we cross refer, clients to one another. And that business model really works well for us actually.
David Chung: right.
sam: have that network.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: [00:35:45] we do share, in terms of the opportunities around.
David Chung: How did you come up with this group of coaches that you guys refer and work together on, on coaching projects and things like that? how did that come about?
sam: Okay. it's just like, fighting your partner in life, right? you want [00:36:00] somebody to be able to work, in a very loose kind of, arrangement. That means it's not contractual, there must be a lot of trust. There's must be a lot of relationship in the process. So again, it is about, understanding one [00:36:15] another, the relationship, having the trust.
David Chung: Hmm.
sam: you are able to work is like a loose form of partnership,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: actually you're running a hard business, you know? Yeah. So it take times to identify some of the [00:36:30] people. I learned that some hard way too. You know, I trust the wrong people that they kind of, Take your client away from you.
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: seen some of this reality, but, again, I've been running business for a long time.
David Chung: sure.
sam: about integrity. they won't last, the client will come [00:36:45] back some point in time.
David Chung: right.
sam: it's really about, building the relationship, building the trust,
David Chung: Hmm.
sam: don't have a need, a big pool, just a few very close partners that, you can trust and work together.
David Chung: Right. 'cause [00:37:00] that's always kind of like the concern, right, is if you start working with people, referring clients or things like that,
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: Are you focusing on helping them to learn how to let it go? Or is it like the whole mindset thing, right? Is it letting [00:37:15] go or learning to trust people? what is the mindset that needs adjustment? The potential of someone trying to steal away your clients. But as you were saying, if that's the kind of business [00:37:30] person you are, without integrity, eventually your clients come back to you. So it sounds like you've, you've had that situation happen where somebody took a client and that client came back to you.
Is that correct?
sam: [00:37:45] Yeah. coaching business is a very, very unique business.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: no matter how much they like you, they won't just select you to coach for the whole organization. They still want multiple coaches to work with the people with different perspective
David Chung: Sure.[00:38:00]
sam: Right? So we must have the abundant set when we work with a client,
David Chung: Right.
sam: ideally if the whole organization embrace coaching,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: bring in another 10 of your close colleagues to work on the client a win-win for [00:38:15] everyone because client will not engage you to work with all the 10 people
David Chung: So you're talking like a coaching pool for like a larger organization where they wanna bring coaching in for, yeah. Multiple people at multiple levels, correct.
sam: Yes,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: [00:38:30] Yeah,
David Chung: Yeah. which is, I think, fairly common in larger organizations or multinationals, but not necessarily as common within smaller or medium sized business.
Is that, would you say that's about, correct.
sam: For the business, let's say [00:38:45] smaller businesses, normally you get one or two assignments
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: management.
David Chung: Right. Yeah. 'cause I, I mean that's also like a very good, business model, right? Because obviously you're not. if for, say the [00:39:00] client was a large multinational and they had like 40 or 50 people they wanted to coach from c-suite to middle management, and, you know, emerging leaders, there's no way you have enough time to coach all of those people.
So bringing [00:39:15] in close friends to work together to do that makes a lot of sense. And obviously you don't fit everybody. Like every leader's not gonna wanna work with you, and you probably don't wanna work with every leader. And so having that pool gives you more diversity and [00:39:30] flexibility in that process.
And I think, that's a really smart way to go about doing that. Find the right people, find a client that's larger, that is looking for coaching, and then kind of go in together as a group.
sam: when someone ask me for a [00:39:45] proposal,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: beside myself and another two of my associates.
David Chung: Oh,
sam: Yeah.
David Chung: That's great.
sam: Yeah, I still believe the fundamental of the coaching philosophy,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: The client to give a choice,[00:40:00]
David Chung: Mm.
sam: force me to be their coach.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: one choice
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: know. I may not be the best person for,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: So giving them a choice I think is very important too.
David Chung: Wow.
sam: increase the chance of [00:40:15] successes.
David Chung: Yeah. I mean, usually those clients will go out and look for their own coaches or like they'd like to talk to,
sam: Well, I say once you have the abandoned mindset, you know, as a coach, how many people I can coach, I only can coach, 10, 30 people, you know, a [00:40:30] time. So once you have that mindset, and of course from a business sense, also scalable because we, we kind of have that referral too.
We get a small card from, you know,
David Chung: Right,
sam: Spend the time, you know, I just get a small card.
David Chung: [00:40:45] Yeah.
i know many people can accept this.
Yeah. So you really have a lot of trust within that group of coaches you work with, that you guys refer each other and work together. That's fantastic because finding that group of people who I, I think [00:41:00] that is probably something very difficult and,
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: just the way the world is shifting and with, you know, technology, if you don't get to meet people and talk to them face to face regularly, I feel like it's [00:41:15] easier To break the relationship when, if you don't necessarily get to meet them and see them in reality versus, actually having met them and having, a relationship that actually takes place where you are sitting in the same space as a person.
I think [00:41:30] there's a difference in terms of how deep the relationships go sometimes.
sam: Yeah. But we'll see. Both of us, you know, while we may not be in the same company, but actually we are making in a common grow, you know, as if both of us grow, our business grow too at the same time
David Chung: Mm-hmm. [00:41:45] I love that mentality because it's not, you know, we are fighting against each other for the same client, but if we work together and our collaborate collaborating together, there's a synergy there right, where we can both [00:42:00] grow and benefit from our relationship working together. We don't need to fight with each other.
sometimes I feel like where's the world going? we are creating more and more, friction and [00:42:15] disagreement when all honestly, we're all looking for the same kind of things where we want to, help people be successful, be able to take care of our families. We can do that in a way that doesn't [00:42:30] hurt each other.
We can do it in a way that benefits all of us because there's more than enough people out in the world who need, more coaching and who could benefit from coaching. I love that mentality that you have. so for you, [00:42:45] what has been one of the most rewarding parts of running your own business?
sam: mentioned earlier, beside, you know, helping other people in the journey in terms of the time, I guess this is something that the flexibility,
David Chung: Hmm.
sam: the freedom of time. I get to spend a bit more [00:43:00] time with family in the journey, you know, That if I find that it's important, I just block out those times.
That is for my family. I don't coach those period of time. So we giving that freedom
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: doing what you learn in the process.
David Chung: [00:43:15] Mm-hmm.
sam: of course top of financial, it is still a rewarding, kind of a career. Of course, it's not as lucrative as your corporate leaders,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: it's, it's good enough that you are doing something, you enjoying something you love and,
David Chung: Yeah.[00:43:30]
sam: care of the family too.
David Chung: Right. So comparatively to what you were earning your last year at corporate to what you're doing
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: in coaching now,
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: what's the gap? Is it like a 10% gap [00:43:45] indifference or is it like a 50% gap indifference in terms of what you were earning your last year of corporate and currently.
sam: Okay. Good question. I think it's also individual,
David Chung: Of course.
sam: For me, about 50% from my [00:44:00] corporate, it's a choice too that I do not. Built on the scaling of my business part,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: just focus on one-on-one coaching,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: my own time. So compared with [00:44:15] corporate, certainly, probably half of what I use in corporate.
David Chung: Wow.
sam: But like, say if I really want to scale it, I believe I have the ability to, to do more.
David Chung: Sure.
sam: means, selling a little bit more [00:44:30] on the programs and,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: programs that don't take my time and do
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: group coaching.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: Which I choose not to do that now.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: the flexibility of what I'm doing,
David Chung: So you've really, I mean, you, [00:44:45] you really took a pay cut and, you really do what you're doing for the love of it and to help people. That I think is one, is like, yeah, you, you, you really, you're doing coaching because you love it. You're [00:45:00] still able to successfully take care of your family, which is, I think, the biggest, reward in what you're doing and the benefit of what you're doing.
Right.
sam: When I first left corporate
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: we are starting from zero base. From a high earners.
David Chung: [00:45:15] Yeah,
sam: Totally. That is the more difficult decision,
David Chung: right?
sam: But of course, I. Have the clarity of, things I want to do.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: I do plan for it in the sense that, yeah, reason finance [00:45:30] even you don't have income for the next 12 months, you
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: die hunger.
David Chung: of course.
sam: mindset that I will not sacrifice my family,
David Chung: Mm.
sam: in terms of well, but they have to worry about money and all those kind of things. [00:45:45] I think my
David Chung: Right?
sam: I'm pretty good in terms of
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: management,
David Chung: yeah.
sam: Of course. Yeah.
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: We have to plan for the journey.
David Chung: of course.
sam: I'm prepared for it.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: I guess that transition was difficult with the [00:46:00] wife's support and all.
David Chung: Yeah, because as a business owner, when you're going into coaching, or any business, You might be the one in the business, but the people in your lives are impacted by that for good [00:46:15] or for bad.
sam: Right,
David Chung: And I think that's something that more people really need to understand is like, if you want to be successful, whatever success means to you, that also should entail the impact it has on your [00:46:30] family. And how do you do that? So even if, depending on where you live, or let's just say like your goal was to make $80,000 a year.
How are you gonna reach that Doing the business development side of things and you're not [00:46:45] reaching, that goal to take care of your family, it's really a question of that coach's mentality of how you have to do this to build a business.
But, and yes, you want to support people, but you need to survive and support your family as [00:47:00] well. And whatever that family looks like, it doesn't matter. You still need to provide for them. so I think that's kind of where, how do we help coaches to have a mindset, right? For building a business?[00:47:15]
Like where are the challenges in terms of the mindset or what would be the advice you would give to someone starting out today?
sam: Yeah, I spoke to many young coaches. Yeah, they very keen to do what I'm doing. But, again. [00:47:30] I try to prepare them. Yeah. Running a business first. Put a cycle coaching first, right? Like
David Chung: Right.
sam: business, you're going to start from zero to run your own business.
That is the mindset first steps,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: my first question is, if you don't have income for the [00:47:45] next 12 months, can you survive? If you don't have zero income them 12 months to build that business, because that that is a reality, hard reality of whether coaching or any other business, you could prepare for them
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: months [00:48:00] without income.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: you must have that reserve for your families and
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: you don't have to worry about finances when you run the business. Because again, that's something I learned from my entrepreneur
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: on the business. He has [00:48:15] sufficient funding,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: the funding to constrain him from running the business.
So the same philosophy, I always advise people who want to move out to run the business, whether coaching or anything. We have that funding to keep you survive for the [00:48:30] next extra months. If yes, then of course you need to have a plan to build your revenue fast enough or the 30 month onwards
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: up,
David Chung: right.
sam: So it is about business, actually,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: a business, that mindset, [00:48:45] so has a little bit more financial planning,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: and also give yourself a bit more time. Let's say you don't have that chance. you start now
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: at the same time you can prepare for the business
David Chung: Right.
sam: to [00:49:00] empower.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: like building up your connection, your network, upskilling yourself during this period. So you prepare, keep yourselves the space. Don't just jump,
David Chung: Right?
sam: I see many, many [00:49:15] people do that actually.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: So it is really about preparing yourself to manage that business.
David Chung: I think that's very good advice. yeah, prepare, think about what would you do if for the next 12 months you didn't make anything from it. do [00:49:30] you really need to jump into it full time or can you do this on the side for a little bit until you've, kind of figured out what's the business and who do you wanna work with?
what's your service and how are you gonna continually deliver on that? those are all things that are very [00:49:45] important that they can spend time to actually think about and to develop.
sam: it wouldn't. I do advise some of them know, because a lot of them, when they first started, you know, they coach friends, they coach, you know, where not a lot of financial [00:50:00] exchange, well, they
David Chung: Right.
sam: coaching part, but without a lot of financial. but when you go out, we real client, people are paying you money.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: people wants to see outcome.
You have to upskill it is no longer just coaching your friends, coaching your [00:50:15] relatives,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: like, say, giving yourself the space. you can upskill like what you see. You do it as a side hustle,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: some small group of people, start small, make
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: a business transaction first.
David Chung: Right?
sam: then you're more [00:50:30] ready, you know, the time you already quit your job
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
That's good. So the age of coaches, as you see it now from 10 years ago, and now
sam: Mm-hmm.
David Chung: how is that going up, or is that [00:50:45] going down?
sam: Well, sad is going down. during my, earlier years, my coaching, a lot of them are probably like 50 sort that age gaps.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: been many years in the corporate
David Chung: [00:51:00] Yeah.
sam: the second life after corporate actually.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: So earlier part.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: after working two, three years in the corporate they find that it's not a job that they want
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: and they just, I remember the beauty about coaching is that. Freedom, the
David Chung: [00:51:15] Right.
sam: you control your time. You know that is something that the younger generation always look forward to.
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: Right? But of course, you have to balance in terms of the income and your freedom.
David Chung: Right.
sam: So I, I do see some of them, they jump [00:51:30] fast because, is it again, any coaching people always say, okay, you have the skill.
We can coach anyone. A young person can coach a very senior that is the theory part, right?
David Chung: Right.
sam: in reality, the Asian [00:51:45] culture,
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: very senior who is in the 50, do they want to be coached by someone in the 30? Maybe they ask some, but the chances are they select you as a coach, are quite low
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: another very experienced corporate guy like me,
David Chung: Right,
sam: try to [00:52:00] compete with me with the same client.
David Chung: right.
sam: of the client will choose me. I always ask my client why you choose me.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: about the experience that, you
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: as part of their journey.
David Chung: I've also noticed that with certain coaches and leaders, they're looking for coaches [00:52:15] who have a similar background as they do. So if they're a finance person, they wanna work with a coach who has that finance background. If they're an operations person, they might wanna have someone who's been in that.
Because even though coaching is less [00:52:30] about, the skills, It's really about people management. they still feel a little bit more comfortable because there's a similar shared, Background. as you're saying, with younger people jumping into it, I think they can still deliver [00:52:45] value, right?
But obviously, There's a difference in the type of client that wants to work with you, because if they're looking for somebody who understands them and where they are in life, how [00:53:00] well can you, as someone who's only had a, maybe a decade or or less of experience, how, how well can you relate with them, as a potential coach and it, yeah.
Again, it's not anything to do with their [00:53:15] ability as a coach, right? It's really about the client who and what they're looking for.
sam: is important too, like you just mentioned, sometimes, let's say younger coach, they want to communicate with, a sports senior client,
David Chung: [00:53:30] mm,
sam: the top process and also the language that they use. you may not be able to understand
David Chung: mm-hmm.
sam: And of course even the experience, what they, they relate to their experience.
You can't relate what they have gone through actually, you
David Chung: Right.
sam: that [00:53:45] does affect coaching too, actually.
David Chung: Yeah,
sam: longer time to understand your client
David Chung: that's a really good point. Like if you came out of working in a corporate where even if you were HR for three to five years and then you were trying to [00:54:00] work with, let's just say a C-suite for a multinational Fortune 100, how well can you, relate with the issues that they're dealing with on a regular basis?
sam: The language, the challenge that they face is
David Chung: Right?
sam: could message [00:54:15] that then?
David Chung: Yeah. So I think, that is also a really important. Piece of it is how well you as a coach relate with your clients, to be able to help them through their difficult [00:54:30] situations. your experience does play into, into that.
sam: Yes, certainly. Because, you know, especially you deal with the senior client, more experienced client. they do have the patient to explain all their problems to
David Chung: Mm-hmm. Right?
sam: [00:54:45] when they talk to us, you know, somehow we are able to know, because probably a lot of these we have gone through ourselves. can't understand what they're trying to tell us.
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: it does help in terms of the communication, the relationship [00:55:00] building, the trust,
David Chung: One last question, Sam, which has been coming up with some of the people that I've been speaking with, is do you have, do you also work with a coach for your, as a, as a coach yourself? Do you have a coach [00:55:15] you work with and talk with?
sam: Oh, yes,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: a peer coach
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: ,
We get somewhere ideas, bounce with the coaches and all
David Chung: Mm-hmm.
sam: it just helps you know that, I think it's important to actually,
David Chung: Yeah.
sam: a [00:55:30] coach.
David Chung: Yes. I wasn't thinking about that before, but as I've been doing these interviews and conversations that's actually been coming up especially with the ones who have been, 10 years plus, is that it's very important to have another coach or a group of other people that [00:55:45] you can, talk with and who can be frank with you,
You know, going through a difficult time in your business, it's somebody who can relate and understand your situation and be able to offer guidance or a second perspective on the situation you're [00:56:00] going through. so I think that's a hugely useful tip for coaches who are starting out, find somebody else who understands where you are or who's been there, and who can help you navigate through working with difficult [00:56:15] clients or figuring out the business aspect of things.
sam: Yeah. Coach are human too, right? We did help.
David Chung: Well, Sam, thank you so much. I've had such a great time with you today, and there's so many wonderful nuggets of information and [00:56:30] learning. I'm really appreciative of your time and thank you so much.
sam: Thank you. Thank you again for the mic. I useful for your audience. Yeah. Thank you.