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From LeverNews.com — Lever Time is the flagship podcast from the investigative news outlet The Lever. Hosted by award-winning journalist, Oscar-nominated writer, and Bernie Sanders' 2020 speechwriter David Sirota, Lever Time features exclusive reporting from The Lever’s newsroom, high-profile guest interviews, and expert analysis from the sharpest minds in media and politics.
David Sirota: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Lever Time. I'm David Sirota. On today's show, we're going to be sharing my interview with my childhood buddy and the governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, who just concluded his first year in that office. As we're now officially one year out from the 2024 presidential election, a troubling new poll shows that former President Donald Trump is ahead of Joe Biden in five of six major swing states, including Pennsylvania.
Yet, even with Biden's waning popularity in Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro remains one of the most popular Democratic governors in the country right now. And since Pennsylvania remains one of the most important swing states, what happens there over the next year? could end up spelling victory or defeat for Joe Biden's re election campaign in 2024.
That interview with Josh Shapiro [00:01:00] is coming up soon. For our paid subscribers, we're also always dropping bonus episodes into our Lever Premium podcast feed. This past Monday we published an additional free episode of Lever Time for all of our listeners. My interview with Democratic House Member Mark Poe Can of Wisconsin, we talked about the conservative lobbying group, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee or APAC, which has spent years polarizing the debate surrounding Israel and Palestine and recently demonized Democrats who dare to question the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu's government.
If you want access to our premium content, head over to levernews. com and click the subscribe button in the top right to become a supporting subscriber. That gives you access to the Lever Premium podcast feed, exclusive live events, even more in depth reporting, and you'll be directly supporting the investigative journalism that we do here at The Lever.
Okay, let's get right to my conversation with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. As I mentioned, things are not looking great for [00:02:00] Democrats in 2024 in the presidential election. According to a new poll by the New York Times and Siena College, former President Donald Trump leads current President Joe Biden by margins of four to ten percentage points in the swing states of Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, and Pennsylvania.
Biden is ahead only in Wisconsin and only by two percentage points. These polls are so potentially disastrous that if the 2024 presidential election was held today, Donald Trump would be poised to win more than 300 electoral college votes, but fortunately. Biden's unpopularity does not seem to be dragging everyone down with him right now.
A major standout is Josh Shapiro, who according to a recent poll conducted by Franklin and Marshall College, has the highest approval rating for a governor at this point in a first term since Governor Tom Ridge in 2001. I bring all this up Because as we [00:03:00] head into 2024, it looks like Joe Biden and the Democrats will need all the help they can get to boost their electoral prospects against Donald Trump, if that ends up being the contest, and they'll need all that help, especially.
In a swing state like Pennsylvania, as the old saying goes, as goes Pennsylvania, so goes the nation. In today's interview, I spoke with Josh Shapiro about this unique dynamic and what he thinks Joe Biden can do, if anything, to reverse course, we also discussed this past week's election results and what they mean for key issues in Pennsylvania, such as abortion access.
Union protections and voting rights. We also talked about Josh Shapiro's new initiative to try to clean up his state's natural gas industry, and what the effects of such initiatives are on the fight against climate change. Governor Shapiro. Thanks for being with us.
Gov. Josh Shapiro: Good to be with you, David. Thanks.
David Sirota: All right, let's start with the good news.
In the last 24 hours, Pennsylvania [00:04:00] election results, there was a battle for a court judgeship that was a big deal and a big deal nationally. Why don't you tell us what happened in Pennsylvania, a major bellwether state last night and what you think it means for the next election, the 2024 election?
Gov. Josh Shapiro: Yeah, look, I think, you know, real freedom has been on the ballot through multiple election cycles in my race for governor and certainly again last night for the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, Pennsylvania Supreme Court, where we, you know, could likely expect cases involving a woman's right to choose abortion rights, where we could likely expect cases about protecting the union way of life and whether we can expand.
union rights in the commonwealth. Environmental protections, and LGBT issues so much more. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court of course was drawn into the 2020 election, where the former president and his neighbors. Shoot us over 40 times to try and thwart the will of the people. And the Pennsylvania [00:05:00] Supreme Court stood up and protected the will of the people.
And so this is an incredibly important. Court and we had a big race last night, which was really a race that was run on those freedoms and the Democrat only one, but one by a pretty comfortable margin at the end of the day, so I see this as a continuation of a lot of the work we talked about in my campaign, and I think you can expect that you'll see a continuation now heading into 2024 when they'll be a clear choice between presumably.
Joe Biden and presumably, uh, Donald Trump and, and the, you know, the fundamental freedoms that are gonna be on the ballot in that election.
David Sirota: Alright, so now some not so good news, uh, if you don't like Donald Trump. Um, you are, according to polls, a very popular governor right now, a Democratic governor of this swing state of Pennsylvania. Uh, but your numbers in the state, uh, some of the highest approval ratings for a governor at this point in their first term, those numbers contrast with where it appears that [00:06:00] President Joe Biden is in the state when it comes to, uh, his re election campaign.
So, What do you think accounts for the difference between your high approval ratings in Pennsylvania and Joe Biden's numbers in Pennsylvania and how concerned Should we be about Joe Biden's poll numbers in Pennsylvania as, as the country heads into the 2024 election?
Gov. Josh Shapiro: Yeah, well, first off, and I'm going to answer your question, but I do have to push back a little bit on the poll numbers, David. I mean, I think, as you well know. We're a year out. And so, you know, the reason why you have a campaign is to make sure folks know what you've done and how you've done it, the manner in which you're going about your job.
And so I think, you know, part of the poll numbers are a reflection of the fact that the campaign hasn't really been joined yet. But you're the pundit, I'm not. I just wanted to sort of... Preface that, but I take the point of your question. I get where you're, you're coming from on that. Uh, I think a, the, the [00:07:00] president needs to go out and talk about the concrete things he's done here in Pennsylvania that are improving people's lives.
Whether it's helping us do our work, plugging wells and reducing the leaking of methane, uh, into our environment. Whether it's helping us rebuild I 95 in 12 days, whether it's making sure the 276,000 Pennsylvanians who don't have high speed internet. are now getting connected, thanks to their important infrastructure work.
I think it's also going to be important to show a clear contrast between the President of the United States and his accomplishments, and the former President. His efforts to thwart democracy, undermine our freedom, take away a woman's right to choose, make it harder for LGBTQ plus Pennsylvanians to marry the people that they love, and the list goes on and on and on.
What you're seeing at this early stage of the campaign, we got about a year to go. It's just the fact that A, the race hasn't officially joined yet, and B, we haven't shared a lot of those accomplishments with the people of Pennsylvania in a really direct way, and I think the [00:08:00] president will do just that, and I'll help him do it.
David Sirota: One, one question just as a follow on that very quickly. Why do you think Donald Trump remains at least according to polls? And granted, polls can go, you know, it's hard to know their veracity. But according to polls, he has some level of seems like significant support in Pennsylvania. Why do you think that is?
Gov. Josh Shapiro: You know, he had significant support in 2016 and 2020. He won by a little bit in 16, he lost by a little bit in 20. I, I think, you know, look, he has shown up in communities, uh, he's spoken to communities that I think historically have felt left behind or, or shut out, um, and I think he appeals to some of their frustrations.
Now, he doesn't appeal to them in a way that actually makes their lives better. We know from his four years in office that he did actually nothing to make their lives better. Their, their lives did not improve at all. The, the crises of the fentanyl [00:09:00] crisis, or joblessness, or what have you, that has continued on his watch, actually got worse.
So it's not as though his prescription is anything that's actually helpful to these folks. I think what it is, is um, that, you know, he's been willing to sort of speak to that anger. And I think as voters Have to make a clear choice between the two candidates. At some point they're going to say, okay, am I going to be better off?
With this person leading me or that person leading me and what is clear from Donald Trump is that all he brings to the conversation is chaos and doesn't bring any solutions are actually making their lives better. And Joe Biden's got a pretty good track record about on making improvements in their lives.
So I think it's, it's really, um, a product of, uh, you know, of them maybe having a little bit of memory fog in terms of what Donald Trump actually did. And I'm sure that memory fog will clear during the course of this campaign.
David Sirota: Let's talk about one of the divisive issues that's been a divisive issue in Pennsylvania, fracking. You had a major announcement about fracking in [00:10:00] Pennsylvania. Uh, a major natural gas producer, agreeing to things that your administration has demanded. I want you to, to tell us about it and tell us why you think it's such good news, uh, for not just this, One company and even for one region, but for the whole state and maybe as a model for other states.
Gov. Josh Shapiro: Yeah, I think it can be a model for other states. Let me take a half step back in order to set the table for what we just did last week here in Pennsylvania. When I was attorney general, which is what I was before governor, um, I filed criminal charges against fracking companies, criminal charges that those companies ended up pleading to.
And as part of that criminal investigation. We issued a grand jury report citing some of the problems in the natural gas industry that were leading to public health and public safety issues. We then took that grand juror report, which included eight recommendations on how the system could be improved to protect public health and public safety and sent it to the [00:11:00] legislature and said, act on these.
Look, grand jurors, your fellow Pennsylvanians reviewed all this evidence, and these are the changes that they recommend. And of course, our legislature did literally nothing over the course of many years. And I'll be honest with you, David, I got frustrated waiting for them. You know, public health and public safety demands action.
And if these lawmakers weren't going to act, I was. And so I began conversations with, um, these natural gas companies and said, I want to see you implement these reforms, I'll get into them in a second, um, from the grand juror report. And I can either do it by trying to get the legislature to act, or we can do this voluntarily.
And we should come back and talk about. What teeth are there and and you should ask me about that and we will and so in the course of my many months of conversations with one particular company a big one CNX They agreed to not only adhere to the grand jury Recommendations but to go beyond that specifically What does that mean?
One of the biggest [00:12:00] issues David that you and others have talked about is when natural gas drillers do this process known as fracking They put chemicals in the earth to do that process, and we've never known what the hell's in those chemicals so much so that in our grand jury report, when a mom took her kid to the doctor and the kid was demonstrating, you know, real problems breathing and what have you, the doctor literally didn't know what to test for because the doctor didn't know what chemicals the kid had been exposed to under this agreement.
They now have to disclose all the chemicals that they put in the earth. In addition, that we've had all kinds of problems. With setbacks. That is how far a well can be from someone's home or a school or a hospital. We expanded the setbacks under this agreement. We had issues with how we transport fracking waste and the risk that that puts other communities to.
This changes that and makes it safer. We had issues where the regulators, the people at our Department of Environmental Protection, were kind of like part of a revolving door. They'd regulate the industry and [00:13:00] then the industry would hire them and they'd go right over to the company. We got a freeze on that through this, uh, agreement with CNX.
That all is really important. Then we took one step further than what the grand jurors asked for. As part of this agreement, we are installing air monitors at the site of these wells to gather real time data that comes to the Department of Environmental Protection. It's not like it goes to them and we have to ask them for it.
It comes to us, and we get to review that to determine If there are risks, and if there are risks to the public, then we can adjust for that. We can make a setback go further. We can adjust something. We can change something. But this data has not existed before. We're not aware of any other state in the nation that has this type of data.
And that is going to allow us to get real answers. About the fracking process about the natural gas industry and adjust accordingly. And so we're no longer flying blind here. We're no longer relying on ideology on the left or the right, [00:14:00] David. We're actually relying on real data that's going to allow us to make smarter decisions.
So we're really proud of this and we are hopeful and based on the feedback I've gotten from other companies. We're hopeful that we're going to see other companies follow suit. And I think this can be a real model for the rest of the nation. Now. I would love it if lawmakers would codify this right, would put it into statute, but they haven't done it here in Pennsylvania, and I'm sick and tired of waiting on them.
And that's why we moved forward with this memorandum between the company and, and, and our administration.
David Sirota: Now, I live in Colorado. There's a lot of fracking in Colorado, and I'm somewhat of two minds on this, which is to say that if fracking is going to exist, you want to see these kinds of reforms in place. You want to see these kinds of public health minded reforms, how far away the fracking situation is, clean water regulations, air monitoring regulations.
That's what you want to see. So that's on one side. That's on the other side. But I'm also of the of the mind that scientists are [00:15:00] telling us we have to stop fossil fuel extraction and development and burning those fossil fuels if we have a chance to actually do what we need to do to stop climate change.
Some have said that what you're what you've done here is or initiatives like this, whether it's you or anyone else. Helps the industry by by saying the industry as a whole has a long term future in a world in which scientists say the fossil fuel industry cannot have a long term future in terms of fossil fuel as a commodity for us to have a livable ecosystem.
What is your response to those who say that helping the industry even clean itself up and even doing that? Helps preserve an industry that cannot coexist with a livable climate.
Gov. Josh Shapiro: Yeah, look, I guess first thing I would say is, um, I don't know if I'm allowed to quote Ronald Reagan on your podcast, but right. He famously said. Trust, but verify, right? I mean, I think we do [00:16:00] have to have some trust, but verify and as the former attorney general that brought these criminal charges against him, there's not a lot of trust that I have for the broader industry.
And so I want as many verifications as I can. And there is no question that we brought that about as part of this agreement. And hopefully that will stretch to other companies. I think it's also important to note that Pennsylvania Has a proud legacy as an energy leader and, uh, you know, a legacy that powered our industrial revolution helped us defeat fascism abroad helped spark the growth of the modern day labor movement here in Pennsylvania and across the country.
And I don't think we can ignore that. We should recognize that we are certainly going through a moment of transition. Many of the coal fire plants are shutting down, leaving way to natural gas and, uh, and hopefully moving toward even more renewables. I'm someone that would like to see far more renewables as part of what we call our AEPS standards here in Pennsylvania.
[00:17:00] That's kind of the mix of energy that we rely on. And we're going to try and incentivize more solar and wind development here in the Commonwealth. And I think other states that are maybe even better situated for solar and wind. Should continue to move in that that direction as well, but we can't do that overnight We have to go through this transition and my view has been if you're going through that transition You can't wait on public safety.
You can't wait on public health You've got to be implementing that as you go. And so I guess there yeah, I understand there may be some who would say Don't ever trust those people. Don't ever talk to them. Um, but just kind of like yelling and screaming on the internet and not living in the real world is not how I operate as governor.
I'm a get shit done governor. And part of getting shit done is making sure people are safe and healthy as we go through this energy. Transformation and transition to ensure that at the end of it, we're able to both protect our planet and protect public health and safety. And I, I think we're striking [00:18:00] that balance effectively here in the Commonwealth.
David Sirota: Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. Thank you so much for your time. And before we go, I should say my condolences, by the way, to myself and to you for the Phillies tragic loss. Josh and I grew up in, uh, outside of Philadelphia. That last game was so brutal, man. It was so brutal.
Gov. Josh Shapiro: it was terrible. And I want your viewers and your listeners to hear this directly from me. I blame David Sirota for that loss because I think he is cursed. And I think the fact that even though we got him out of Pennsylvania into Colorado, he still roots for our teams. And I think it holds us back. And so, David, I blame you.
David Sirota: Thank you. I, I blame myself as well. By the way, my family blames me too. Governor Shapiro. Thanks again.
Gov. Josh Shapiro: Good. See you, man. Take care.
That's it for today's show. As a reminder, our paid subscribers who get Lever Time Premium, you get access to our regular bonus episodes, so check the bonus feed every week.
David Sirota: To listen to Lever Time Premium, just head over to levernews. [00:19:00] com to become a supporting subscriber. When you do, you get access to all of Lever's premium content, including our weekly newsletters and our live events. And that's all for just 8 a month or 70 for the year. One last favor. Please be sure to like, subscribe, and write a review for Lever Time on your favorite podcast app.
The app you are listening to right now, take 10 seconds and give us a positive review in that app. And make sure to check out all of the incredible reporting our team has been doing over at levernews. com. Until next time, I'm David Sirota. Rock the boat.
The Lever Time Podcast is a production of the Lever and the Lever Podcast Network. It's hosted by me, David Sirota. Our producer is Frank Capello with help from Lever producer, Jared Jacang Mayor.