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Research and Justice For All is a podcast from Health Affairs that provides perspectives on how to dismantle unjust systems and structures that have long impacted health outcomes in historically marginalized populations. Hear how to challenge injustices in health care – rooted in racism, sexism, ableism, and other forms of exclusion – through research, evidence, community-building, and other potential and innovative solutions.
Each season of the podcast is sponsored by organizations dedicated to eliminating health inequities.
This is Research and Justice For All, season 2. I'm your host, Rhea Boyd. Thanks for joining us today. Today, we're gonna be talking about the intersections between green space and incarceration and the relationship between environmental injustice and carceral control. When I tell you I'm excited about today's episode, y'all, I am excited, and I'm grateful that we're gonna be joined by Andrew Winn.
Rhea Boyd:Andrew is currently serving as the executive director of the Insight Garden Program, also known as IGP, and a leader at the intersection of environmental and criminal justice. Before joining IGP, Andrew played a pivotal role in building the underground scholars initiative at UCLA and project rebound at Sacramento State University, both of which are campus equity programs for formerly incarcerated students. Andrew brings a unique perspective to his work as a formerly incarcerated individual who spent 7 years in California state prisons and jails, and he's an avid naturalist who hikes regularly and backpacks. Andrew, welcome to the pod.
Andrew Winn:Well, thank you. It's good to be here.
Rhea Boyd:Right on. So to start it off, just tell us a little bit more about the Insight Garden Program or IGP, and what brought you in particular to this work?
Andrew Winn:IGP started in 2002 at San Quentin, And it is, you know, considered a rehabilitated program by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. And that the program, you know, serves incarcerated people. And gardening is something that a lot of people can connect with regardless of your background. And we also know that gardens can serve as a vehicle to open up more doors. So our our programs over at, San Quentin then, ended up growing and blossoming into, you know, 8 other state prisons.
Andrew Winn:We're on 12 prison yards. And and through the access of gardens inside state institutions, we're then able to, you know, meet people where they're at, teach permaculture. Permaculture, if you're unfamiliar with it, is just how each plant, each person, each ecosystem, you know, has relationship with the other. And that serves as a real great basis of our learning modalities inside the the prisons, inside our prison programs. And on top of that, beyond just our our in prison work, we also do reentry resources.
Andrew Winn:So our our services is a coaching model where people who are a part of our program when they get out have access to, you know, coaching that will help, you know, get them closer to where they're wanting to go. Also, we do a number of trips outdoors. So we do camping. We'll do, mushroom foraging. We'll do bald eagle boat tours, and really just start opening up what access to the earth means, particularly with those who have been incarcerated.
Andrew Winn:This is a population that is historically marginalized, who has a detachment or misunderstanding of, of what access to the ARC means, and so we do a lot of that. Also, we do a policy advocacy within the organization. While, you know, we could, you know, present legislation, what we've learned is building relationships with empowered people, whether it's in the legislature or the California Department of Corrections Rehabilitation, building these relationships, and then talk about where we're struggling as an organization and operating a program inside of a prison or in reentry, we're then able to, you know, create greater access and policy changes. Those are like the 3 main areas, in prison, reentry, and policy and advocacy that Insight Garden works at. For me, what brought me here is, you know, as a previously incarcerated person, I noticed a lot of injustices in my time inside.
Andrew Winn:I remember, you know, one prison in that cell right next to me was one of my best friends from the same neighborhood as me. So I've also noticed that, you know, people from my own neighborhood were getting incarcerated. I had friends who were doing life sentences and recognizing that, like, we are having to live in prison cells with no AC in the Central Valley. There was a lot of just issues around the environment, the people who were being incarcerated, and, the length of time that people were being incarcerated for under these conditions. And also, you know, my connection to nature, what really drew me to becoming the executive director of Inside Garden Program is I'm an avid hiker, backpacker.
Andrew Winn:That really opens it up for me. Being able to touch a lamb's ear on the trail, you know, identifying poison oak, knowing the the birds or the native plants, in the area really allows me to navigate it much easier. And so just connections to to the earth mean a lot to me. I will just mention one other thing. You know, I was incarcerated in the early 2000, And almost 15 years to this day, I was released from prison.
Andrew Winn:And during that time, there was no programs inside. I was, you know, literally locked down for a very long time. So to be able to provide programs inside and to connect with people inside and bring aspects of the Earth inside really resonates with me as a person and aligns with my ethos.
Rhea Boyd:Speaking of bringing aspects of the earth, I love how you said that, bringing aspects of the earth inside. You also mentioned that, you know, some of the populations who are disproportionately incarcerated, I'm assuming you're talking about Black folks, to be honest, and maybe even some Latinx populations, people who have lived in landlocked areas, who don't have lived in areas that don't have the resources to really see all of nature. So for the folks that you guys encounter, how do you overcome what can be, like, a really long standing reticence to approach nature in a way that feels at ease, where you can feel that peace there? You know?
Andrew Winn:That's a great question. You know, it really is destigmatizing what we're encountering. I think of one prison program that we have over in Lancaster. And in that program, we have rosemary growing there. And rosemary grows very well and easily, and it's native to California.
Andrew Winn:So it belongs here. And even in this area where it's like desert, this plant thrives. However, what happens is I asked somebody, I was like, does anybody anybody in this group use this plant? You know, whether it's for cooking or for medicinal uses. And and one guy is like, no.
Andrew Winn:Why would I use that plant? I don't trust it. And I'm like, you don't trust it? Tell me more. And he's like, well, I don't know.
Andrew Winn:Like, that plant is right here. It's in prison. And, you know, to me, I'm hearing him, and he has legitimate concerns around a plant that's growing in prison. And I'm like, Let me tell you more about this plant. And so, I told him more, like, you know, it's supposed to be here.
Andrew Winn:It's it you know, long before these these fences and electric fences and walls were put up, this plant was here. And then I came back about a month later to that prison, and we did a whole herbalism, lesson on that plant. And, what we did is we had a further discussion. I pulled out a material medica on the plant. We talked about, you know, some of its uses.
Andrew Winn:I mean, one person is like, it smells like VapoRub, and I'm like, of course it does. Well, of course it does. And then another person, you know, learned that it like supports hair growth. It's taking nature to new levels, destigmatizing the things that, you know, that they don't understand. Also, you know, one of the big things that I'm I am like fully aware of and I'd like to talk about is, like, the principles of leave no trace.
Andrew Winn:And what that means, and as people who have to live on this earth, we have a responsibility to be stewards and to to care for this land and to make it last. We only have one earth that supports us. And so I really enjoy just being able to talk about all the things, and understanding, you know, all the little things that come with, you know, growing inside prisons or even, like, hiking on a trail. Being able to talk about it freely and not leave it as something stigmatized is really one of the more more important things that we get to do. We don't have to leave things as, you know, as a misunderstanding.
Andrew Winn:We can educate, and I think through education, we can destigmatize and really understand it. And that really ties into the people who are incarcerated. Being able to destigmatize who's actually in prison, There's you know, we know that, we over incarcerate BIPOC folks by in by wild numbers. We know. It's not a secret.
Andrew Winn:And so the to destigmatize people, the same way that we destigmatize plants, bears, wildlife, pieces of the earth, it's all interconnected. You know, one leads to need to another. And when we talk about it and frame it that way, there's a deeper understanding from the people who are participating in our reentry work and our in prison groups. And even when we start, do our policy and advocate policy and advocacy is destigmatizing the the plants that we're trying to bring into the the gardens, and we are working with wardens on that. And being able to inform, like, this does not impact safety and security.
Andrew Winn:This is how we can do it safely. And really just start start from there. It's all about educating.
Rhea Boyd:I mean, wow. There was so much there that I want us to just unpack a little bit, maybe starting with this concept of leave no trace and our responsibility to be stewards and care for the land that supports us, because I think you're you're right in drawing the parallel between our responsibility to care for the land that supports us and our responsibility to care for each other and other people and wildlife. And it just I love that you were saying that, you know, part of the work is to destigmatize nature as a way to also begin a conversation about destigmatizing ourselves and each other and destigmatizing the relationship between us and what's around us. Because I think there is there's an important parallel there that what you're what you're trying to what you're endeavoring to do inside prisons is also address the problem that exists outside prisons, you know, with communities of color, like you said, BIPOC groups that have historically suffered from violent forms of racism, that have taken from people their various freedoms, whether they were incarcerated or not, taken from people access to medicine, as you mentioned, taken from people access to nature and a sense of comfort among the land that they are meant to care for.
Rhea Boyd:And I feel like that taking is happening throughout people's lives, whether you are incarcerated or not, and is also affecting people in their communities. Right? Like, carceral spaces aren't the only ones that lack green space. Like, there are it's well studied that communities of color are also more likely to live in areas that lack adequate green space. And specifically, like lack of shade cover contributes to higher temperatures in those areas and that those higher temperatures over time.
Rhea Boyd:I think there's a 2023 study in The Lancet, a prominent medical journal that, basically, out of the UK, they basically found that those higher temperatures over time are what's called, like, these urban heat islands, areas that are predominantly inhabited by BIPOC communities, Black, Indigenous, you know, people of color communities, are exposed to hotter, more extreme weather and that that increases their mortality rates too. Like, this is it's a problem that's happening in prisons, and I think you have a beautiful way of helping us all understand the parallels between it happening in prisons and it just happening in general to BIPOC people wherever we find ourselves. Do you wanna say more on that? Am I, like, understanding what you're saying right?
Andrew Winn:Yeah. I mean, you're definitely understanding. You know, I think of a particular prison in California, it it has this toxic soil. The soil has a fungi in it. And this fungi predominantly impacts black folks and people of Asian descent.
Andrew Winn:And so this prison is primarily made up of Spanish first speak speakers within that prison, and then also indigenous folks and white folks. And this is in the middle of the Central Valley, there is a lot of agriculture that goes on, and so there's no trees. There you know, this is a very hot and arid place. So you have the heat that, you know, regularly stays above a 100 degrees for 5, 6 months of the year. And there's no type of shade cover.
Andrew Winn:None of the, you know, none of the native species plants are able to thrive there. This is a very nature devoid place that's toxic to people. And we also work really hard over there to create a green space. I was just recently over there last month, and I saw when our program, and the plants were just vining, the the the watermelons, the cantaloupes. You know, it looked a bit like a jungle.
Andrew Winn:It was an oasis. Like, you wouldn't believe in a very difficult place, to live, whether you're a person or you're a plant. And so here we have a place that, you know, impacts that that's unhealthy, unhealthy soil. I mean, this soil causes valley fever in the respiratory system. And here we are trying to heal the land because many plants can actually start filtering the soil, start making it, making it healthy.
Andrew Winn:But it takes takes work and understanding what nature is, how how the earth can heal itself if we just let it. But a prison is meant to be nature devoid. It's meant to create a detachment between the people inside and the earth itself. We have, a lot of, you know, participants who just love being a part of our program. We have, like, a waiting list at that particular place, like about a 100, 150 people waiting to get in to our program because it is a place where they can grow and touch the soil.
Andrew Winn:You know, one of the things I will just, you know, briefly touch on is there's a detachment and, you know, and a lot of the rules are around safety and security. So people aren't allowed to put their hands in the soil because the the prison will see it as a security risk. Somebody can be hiding something, would be, you know, some an example of, like, what that security risk can be. And so not even being able to, like, touch the soil, makes it really difficult to be really connected to a land. And so here we have these marginalized groups who are told, you're a danger to us if you if you get close to it.
Rhea Boyd:Wow. I wanna talk more about that. Can you say more about why you believe carceral facilities and the experience of incarceration is designed to sever these connections between nature and self? I think that example you gave is really profound about not even being able to touch soil in some instances. Like, what about incarceration itself do you think is purposeful about, keeping people from experiencing nature in that way?
Andrew Winn:Yeah. I mean, there's it's always cited as safety and security. That's the number one thing. So, you know, some of the the carceral facilities don't have trees because it removes lines or sight sight lines from people with guns in the towers. They need to be able to shoot people is what they're they're citing, which, you know, really disturbing to think that, like, we can't have a tree because you would need to be able to murder us at any given moment.
Andrew Winn:It's really just like, wow. You know? And so there's things like that or, you know, the hiding of potential contraband inside. It's also like there's a belief that there is, you know, the plants could be used in ways, that aren't approved by the prison. So I think one example is we had a there was a volunteer plant, meaning a plant that just grew up on its own, at one of the prisons.
Andrew Winn:And it's a native species plant. But then, you know, the a security unit saw the plant and says, well, people can get high on this. And you're just and, you know, we we took the blame on that, as an organization that brings plants in. They're like, we believe that you had something to do with this, but it's a volunteer. Earth does what she wants.
Andrew Winn:And, you know, we had to really educate them, like, this is a native species plant. It grows in this area. You'll find it in this area. And whether, you know, we brought it in, which we didn't, or it grew here, you know, because, you know, the seed was transferred from somewhere else, that's not my responsibility. But it also shows that if given the opportunity, the earth, she will heal herself if, you know, if given that opportunity.
Andrew Winn:And so, you know, it it's there is, like, that severance of between what the Earth does and what she decides to do, and what the prison wants to do. You know, safety and security is always, you know, the top of mind for prison officials. And so it's up to us, at the Insight Garden Program to really educate, you know, prison admins. So whether it's the warden, chief deputy warden, you know, the yard captain to whoever it might be, really just sit down and we talk with them. And that's a lot of what we do.
Andrew Winn:We would try to do it once a year, so we can, you know, educate them. And I ask wardens, like, how do you see us being able to, like, meet your needs as a warden? And we use as an entry point to a conversation where we're like, okay, I see how this could work. Would you be willing to consider this? You know, it's really just kinda, you know, understanding the the the the problems, and then coming up with solutions, and it's step by step.
Andrew Winn:You know, we have a goal to create green spaces inside prisons. And while some people will say, oh, you're dressing up a garbage can. Right? It is it is a bit of that, yes. That is valid.
Andrew Winn:However, these are real people inside prisons. Whether they're incarcerated, or they're medical workers, or they're custody staff, these are people who have to be here every single day to, you know, either to serve their sentence, or to put food on their family's table. And green spaces is one of the ways to make the environment more healthy. I I real I'm a firm believer that, particularly like in Central Valley where we have high temperatures, that green spaces can also reduce, some of the heat, not just on the ground but also offer shade. I mean, where I live in Sacramento, our utility district offers rebates for planting trees.
Andrew Winn:I mean, here we have, like, all these other or or, you know, these entities who are very supportive in trying to create shade and green spaces. And then we have a prison system that wants to remove it, and then we talk about our climate crisis, and then we talk about the the criminal justice system as 2 separate things, but they're 1 and the same.
Rhea Boyd:I mean, let's get into that for a second. This might be a sticky issue on the pod, but I think we should talk about it. I think one of the things you raised is, like, kind of a question as to what do we lose as a society to uphold the idea of safety and security? Because this is a larger question that also emanates from outside of prisons as well. Right?
Rhea Boyd:Like, this is just a national conversation we had around the role of police in advancing or detracting from certain groups' feeling of public safety. And the question we had to ask is, what kind of death and what level of death are we willing to accept for a level of perceived safety and perceived security that's never fully shared across groups, like racial groups when it comes to police violence. You know, we know communities of color and particularly black and indigenous populations have the highest rates of police related mortality and death. And then the incarcerated versus the rest of us who are outside. You know, like, what are we willing to tolerate for folks who are incarcerated knowing that while we can pretend that there's, like, a border to prisons when it comes to the environment and the Earth, all of the land is shared.
Rhea Boyd:Prisons have an environmental impact that affects more than the folks who are confined there. And so, one, I think that was profound, what you just shared. And 2, do you have a sense about how we reconcile that? Like, this is why the conversation about police has always been a nonstarter. As soon as anybody brings up safety, and to be frank, as soon as white people bring up feeling unsafe, we, as a society, have said, we feel okay with a certain degree of black death, disproportionate black death, even child black death, which is one of my advocacy interests is the effect of police violence on children's development and well-being.
Rhea Boyd:Like, we've said we're okay with that in a certain sense. And it's a tough job to be a warden. And it is a violent place. And how can they stay safe in this job you know, but also create green space? You know what I mean?
Rhea Boyd:Like, do you have a sense about how to is there a way to reconcile that tension? Or are we thinking about it in the right way? Is it safety versus green space or safety versus police violence as I set up a parallel? Or should we frame it differently?
Andrew Winn:Yeah. I'm I I think yeah. There's a lot to kinda unpack there. I will just start off by saying, you know, addressing whatever issues, social issues, in prison issues, you know, it's multi causal. So it retakes a real holistic approach in addressing the issues that are in front of us.
Andrew Winn:We've been caught up in a one size fits all kind of safety, and that's not what safety looks like. Safety is building the infrastructure to be able to address the problems in front of us. So whether it is violence, whether it is poverty, whether it's nourishment, and so rather than addressing, you know, those issues, we've just said, let's just give guns or let's just insert violence here as a way to control it. And that's not control. That's that's a system that's not working for all of us.
Andrew Winn:And we have to really understand and unpack and pull back the layers of these problems that we're addressing. You know, in California, there has been a lot of work to make prisons safer for the people who have to live there, the currently incarcerated, to the people who have to work there. And that happens through understanding the problems. I remember when I told you at the beginning of this podcast where, you know, I wasn't allowed to do programs. We were on lockdowns for months at a time.
Andrew Winn:And what does that do to somebody? What does that leave somebody to think about? You know, it's magnifying the little problems. It's creating a separation between us and them. Even amongst, you know, incarcerated populations, right?
Andrew Winn:We're broken, and we're broken up and racialized into certain groups. And, you know, it it feels like an us and them. So people are on heightened awareness. They, you know, are just, you know, feel like they're under attack. And when your mind is thinking about that and not thinking about, like, I don't know, a garden, that is where the energy is given.
Andrew Winn:And so California, I will say, has done a better job in the last 10 years at providing more access to programs than they've ever had. Now there's still lots of room of improvement. This is not me giving my attaboy. It it it what it is what I am trying to say is we are seeing the impact, by, you know, people returning to prisons, by the amount of violence being done inside prisons, and there's much more work to be done, around, like, what we can do to address safety and security, and not make it a one size fits all. I mean, I I use this example for a lot of people to help them understand, like, how I envision a future.
Andrew Winn:And the future is chemo. And another or sorry, cancer. And another person has both surprised prescribed them chemo. Right? Just because you have a cold doesn't mean you have you get the same treatment as somebody who has another, illness.
Andrew Winn:Right? And so we have to really start to understand, like, okay, this person is experiencing poverty in this kind of way, or your housing insecure, they have food insecurities. How do we start addressing housing? How do we start addressing access to healthy foods? And, in the same same thing goes with with safety and security.
Andrew Winn:Like not everybody deserves to be locked up. Let's understand what happened and how how they got to this position. We see people all the time having mental health episodes, who are dent who whose parent, you know, their guardian is calling the police or calling 911 for help. Why are we sending the police there? They're not social workers.
Andrew Winn:Right? Like, why do we not have the infrastructure to actually address the problem in front of us? We're using a one size fits all to address safety and it and it's not safe. It's not safe for, you know, guardians to to call, 911 when when guns and use of force is one of the first things that are employed. And so I think it's, you know, really important that we we start figuring out more ways to create safety.
Andrew Winn:And for us, at Inside Garden Program, it's getting people out of their prison cells, participating in a group, understanding their the ecology and, the environment and how we are very much a part of it. We see ourselves as separate, as if we're, you know, different from the environment, but we're 1 and the same. And, you know, it's being able to understand that aspect of it, it's also knowing that, like, you know, giving somebody something to do and focus their attention on, focus on like caring and tending to plants, tending to their environment, that starts to make a difference. It's being able to stimulate somebody's mind in a way that has not always been stimulated, makes a difference. It's being able to see, you know, green spaces and have shade, that starts to make a difference.
Andrew Winn:It's being able to pick berries and then share them with somebody else who may or may not look like you. You know, it it's being able to, to understand that we're in this together, whether you're incarcerated or not. And so I think, an approach to safety and security is understanding us as a whole is not a one size fits all, but a holistic approach to the issues that we're all facing. And just because it's not happening to you today, doesn't mean it's not gonna happen to you tomorrow. And I think we have to think a little bit bigger in how we we can be very supportive of each other.
Rhea Boyd:I mean, all I all of that, I think, is right on is spot on, that this one size fits all violent approach to safety has failed us. That, you know, evidence shows it's not keeping us all safe. It doesn't even make us all feel safe. And inside prisons, as you said, it magnifies the problem. And I like this idea of focusing people's attention on something else that is nurturing as a way for people to also maybe even internalize that nurturing nature to themselves and direct it towards other people.
Rhea Boyd:In that vein, you know, you mentioned the shortened life expectancy of, correctional officers. Like, do you feel like an intervention like this is needed for people who work in prisons, who spend most of their days in these environments, that, you know, they also need a different relationship to nature as a way to have a different relationship to the inmates they oversee?
Andrew Winn:Yeah. I I I really, you know, believe so. I mean, one is if the incarcerated population is doing better, that makes their job easier. You know, if it feels like, you know, somebody's being attacked all the time or being surveilled in such a way to it starts impacting the the psyche, I think it, you know, it it makes it for a harder workplace. And so, being able to, you know, be in a building that's a little bit cooler, because of shade, being able to, look at something that's, beautiful, seeing, you know, pollinators come in and and going to certain plants, seeing the sunflowers, you know, seeing and participating in, seeing how nature interacts with each other.
Andrew Winn:It, you know, it just makes it just makes it a better workplace. It makes it a better environment to be living in. And, you know, I, you know, envision a place where we can, you know, address the environmental issues. Of course, there there are so many other things that are, you know, need to be addressed. But, you know, our focus at Inside Garden Program is addressing the environmental issues, understanding its impact, to currently incarcerated people and its impact to custody staff.
Andrew Winn:You know, we don't we want to offer care. We have a you know, we we often say in the Inside Garden program, this is an ecosystem of care that we try to provide, just as there's communities of care. And trying to think of all the, just all the different ways that we can be supportive of each other. If somebody has to show up to work every day, how can we make their job easier? And if it means working with an incarcerated population in a way that they're learning, in a way that sucedes their anxieties, in a way that allows them to see the macro, it will impact the the people who have to work there, whether custody staff or even medical staff.
Rhea Boyd:Yes. And I just wanted to make a note. I think I've been using the wrong term throughout this whole podcast. I've been using the word inmate when I really should say currently incarcerated person. And I apologize for that.
Rhea Boyd:And I wanna offer it to our audience as maybe a shift in the terms y'all use as well.
Andrew Winn:Thank you. Yeah.
Rhea Boyd:I'm kind of sad this is coming to a close because I have a lot there's a lot there. There's a lot there about the relationship between environment and humans and how that relationship is devalued and uninvested in in incarcerated spaces and what that means for the rest of society where we also don't see these connections always being fostered. Thank you so much for being here. Today, we've been talking to Andrew Winn, who currently serves as the executive director of the Insight Garden Program or IGP, and is a leader at the intersection of environmental and criminal justice. Andrew, I personally am so grateful we have this opportunity to learn more about your work and consider these really provocative themes about access to nature as a human right and about what happens in prisons being both a reflection of and a part of what's happening in the rest of society in terms of our access to green space for certain communities and safety and whether, you know, what are the means in which we all can stay safe.
Rhea Boyd:So thank you so much for joining us.
Andrew Winn:Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Rhea Boyd:This is Research and Justice For All from Health Affairs, season 2. If you like what you heard today or you're interested in our future upcoming episodes, be sure to click subscribe or send it to a friend.