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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:22.725)
Hello, Taina. How are you today?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:36.832)
I'm alright, how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:39.424)
good. It's dreary here in St. Louis. I don't Yeah, we're entering that part of the like I love this time of year because I love cool, but it does like eventually the gray is a little like I like it, but it makes me want to curl up and not be productive, which I think is, by the way, how humans are meant to be at this time of year.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:42.11)
Yeah, same here.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:56.918)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:00.813)
Yeah, yeah. Harvest is over or almost over. So it's now about rest.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:08.042)
supposed to be yet we don't function in that way. So it's difficult when you're like, there are things I not only need, but want to get done, which is actually my mess today. But last time I started.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:10.805)
Yeah, we don't.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:24.492)
it's frozen again.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:36.672)
How are you?
Taina Brown she/hers (02:38.056)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (02:39.242)
Technical difficulties.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:41.355)
This has never happened before.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:44.14)
that's what they all say. Anyway, continuing on. Last week I went first with our messes. So are you coming with a mess? Because if so, I'd love for you to go first today.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:56.566)
I'd love to hear what you have to say first. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:58.976)
All right. All right. I just want people to recognize that I'm not going first because I'm demanding it every time. OK, because I feel a little like in the spotlight. So here's mine, which I'm uncomfortable to talk about. But I think that's the whole point of all these. Right. So I'm writing a book, which is exciting. I made the decision and just like, don't know, that's how I function. I'll think about things forever sometimes. And then just one day I'm like.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:06.271)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:13.973)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:27.424)
Fuck it, doing it, and then I just start doing it. And I mean, I've gone wholeheartedly. I'm approaching this in a weird way. I'm writing the book directly into layout instead of writing the book and then formatting it. It works better for my brain. It always has. When I was an editor, I liked to write directly to the layout of the page instead of just writing and then working it in.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:49.717)
What does that mean, running directly to layout for those of us who don't know?
Becky Mollenkamp (03:52.392)
So in this particular case, part of the reason is because the way I'm approaching this book is not just long form narrative. It's a nonfiction book about liberating your business. It's not just going to be endless chapters of continuous writing. It's going to be broken up into like little sidebars and checklists. And there's there's always going to be a narrative piece that's a personal story. And then not to give away too much here, but the format is a narrative that's a personal story related to whatever the topic of the chapter is.
And then going into what I'm calling like a reality check, which is talking about sort of the white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist conditioning involved in whatever the topic is. And the liberatory reframe, which is how do we reframe this narrative in a way that is actually more liberatory instead of contributing to the oppression. And then there's like various checklists, this or that, client stories, like other kinds of little sidebars. And then like there's these micro-liberations, things you can do each day to kind of practice this shift for yourself.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:29.717)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:36.927)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:44.037)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:51.744)
So that's kind of the setup of every chapter. So it's broken into more pieces instead of just long form. So I'm writing kind of each of those pieces into the actual document, like the final layout, the page that we sent to, in my case, probably Amazon KDP to cite all my issues with Amazon, because it's easier. Okay, so I'm writing it in that way, which is an unusual way, I think, to write a book, but it feels really good to me. As I'm writing this book, I am having...
Taina Brown she/hers (04:58.152)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:21.6)
And there's gonna be a whole chapter on this. Imposter syndrome, right? That is coming up. And the voice that keeps coming in my head as I am writing this, I'm trying not to let it stop me, but it wants to, boy. It really wants to stop me and say, stop, don't do this because it's the who are you to write the story. Why does the world even need your take on this?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:26.44)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:47.603)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:47.7)
when there are so many amazing people out there, Adrienne Marie Brown, Emergent Strategy, know, there's so many amazing books, The Service Barry, like whatever, as I think about what else is out there that's written through a liberatory lens that talks about business, there's a lot of it out there, right? Written by people who are smarter than me, who have different lived experiences than me, all of that. My book in particular is written through my lens, which I acknowledge in the beginning of the book.
Clearly that's a white lady's lens, it's a privileged lens, and I'm being really mindful to credit and cite and give lots of like love inside of each chapter to the people who have taught me and informed my worldview, right? So there's this part of me that's like, maybe the world needs the book because part of my responsibility with privilege is to bring, shine a light to people who might not.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:33.351)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:45.536)
Otherwise, get that light shined on them to write to people who share a worldview like mine and maybe haven't done some of the work I've done and are more apt to listen to me than the likes of you or Faith, which is problematic. And yet, informs me. Right, the reality is Faith Clark reminded me the other day, we had a whole conversation about it of like,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:00.436)
Mm-hmm.
But still the reality.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:11.858)
my shock at hearing, of course people aren't going to listen to me when I say it as well as they listen to you. And it's like, but you're so much smarter than me. And it's like, that doesn't, that's not the reality of the world. So there's that. But then there's also this part of me that's like, but is it necessary needed? Right. Am I the right person to do it? And is it profiting? Not that I'm going to profit a lot. Let's be honest. It's not like I got a book contract folks. I'm self publishing. If I sell a hundred books, it will feel like
the biggest miracle, right? Like that's my very low goal. So it's not like I'm talking about huge profiting, but am I trying to profit off of or on the backs of folks who have far more intelligence, experience, research, whatever than me. So there's where I'm sitting, Taina. This is the shit that's playing in my head as I'm working on this and I've been working on it every day. It lights me up. I'm so excited. I'm hyper fixated because I'm really excited and enjoying writing it.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:44.595)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:12.844)
And that narrative keeps going in my head and it feels really messy to navigate. Also, it's not lost on me the irony of talking about white supremacist capitalist conditioning in my in this book and all of that. And I am as I'm doing it dealing with all the same conditioning coming up. So there's my mess of the day or actually lately it's been I think it's gonna be the mess of
Taina Brown she/hers (08:38.995)
It's like glitchy, just so you know. So if it freezes up again for more than just like a few seconds, I'll just like leave and come back.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:40.2)
the month and months ahead.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:55.358)
Yeah, sorry everyone who's yeah, this is our I'm also going to close a few things while you talk to see if that helps.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:01.458)
Okay, can I offer some thoughts?
Becky Mollenkamp (09:05.694)
I would love some thoughts, that's why I share it even though it's like deeply uncomfortable for all the reasons it's always uncomfortable to share shit.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:08.315)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so the first thought I'll share is like this concept of like profiting off of someone else's like work or intelligence. Obviously, there's such a thing as plagiarism and like co-opting, right? But
Becky Mollenkamp (09:32.724)
I am aware of that, my background's journalism, and that's definitely not what we're talking about here. There's heavy citations in this book for all of the folks who have.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:35.41)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and that's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. So like, knowing what I know about you, I know that you are giving credit where credit is due. And then the other thing with that is like, there is no way to talk about these things without it feeling like, not without it feeling like, but without sharing other people's ideas about it.
And so one thing that I liked about or one thing that has stuck with me from grad school that has helped to shift the way or helped me do a little bit with like imposter syndrome is in grad school, right? Like our professors would assign readings from different authors to be read together. And the whole premise of that was that
These ideas are having a conversation with each other. And so I think having that frame of mind when you're writing this, it's not like you're writing the go-to guide, you're contributing to the conversation that's already happening, right? That's the whole premise of like publishing in grad school, right? Is that you're contributing new ideas or you're evolving someone else's ideas, right? You're in conversation with other people that have the same thoughts and the same ideas and whatnot.
And so I think it's when you ask like, who am I to publish this? We're having these conversations all the time. So why not like publish it in a book, right? Because it's a conversation that you're having with the larger audience about.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:19.328)
I just don't want feel Brene Brownie. And listen, I love Brene Brown. I do. And she's talking about things that black women, black feminists had talked about long before she talked about. Well, and that is probably the bigger issue is that there does has historically, although I haven't been following her in many years now, as I have done so much of my own unlearning, realizing I could be learning this stuff from the people who informed her instead of her.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:31.397)
But is she crediting them?
Becky Mollenkamp (11:47.198)
I think that used to be a problem. I don't know if it still is, so I don't want to speak to that. But you're right, that is part of it. That's a big issue, right? You're right. It's the repackaging of ideas as if they're your own ideas. That's the bigger.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:53.776)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:58.285)
Yeah. Yeah, and there are no new ideas. There's just like the evolution of ideas. So it's not like, like, obviously plagiarizing and co-opting and things like that are real. But at the same time, like if you're crediting where it's necessary and if someone who you are crediting or someone who you're citing, you know, I feel like if some like if you cited Adrienne Marie Brown and she reached out and would be like,
Becky Mollenkamp (12:03.402)
That is your drill.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:25.467)
Please don't cite my work. You'd be like, okay, like sure. I have to respect your wishes, right? Like, I don't feel like you would.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:31.483)
but that hurts, Titi, because I am, except referencing Adrienne Murray Brown, and I would be, like, mortified.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:37.739)
Yeah, obviously, but like, think this also goes back to remember in Coach's Circle, we were talking about marketing and like, invisibility and the fact that like, there's no way to be completely like visible as a business owner or as a thought leader without someone disagreeing with you when someone at some point trying to like, call you out and cancel you. And then we decided, okay, well, then the best way to
Becky Mollenkamp (13:01.76)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:07.769)
deal with that is to expect it, right? Instead of not expect it. But when you expect it, like, what did we do, right? When we said, OK, if you're going to expect it, then what's the next step? The accountability process, right? So if you have an accountability process set up, then that's all you can do. Your hands are tied.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:11.808)
I think that is part of the problem. That may be a bit of what's happening to
Becky Mollenkamp (13:30.144)
Yeah, mean, accountability to me for this does look like citing those I've learned from where it makes sense reaching out even because even though I think I own the IP own, which is so gross, but like I think I wouldn't be in a legal hot water, I don't think for because I'm going to be doing these Q &A's with people that were guests on my podcast. So it's just repurposing some of that content where it makes sense. of the chapters. But I'm to reach out to those folks and just make sure they're OK. Right. Even though I
Taina Brown she/hers (13:53.988)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:00.456)
technically I think I can. I also want to be like, if you don't want to be in a book and have your likeness represented, and by the way, Tyena, get ready for this email from me because you're one of them. But if you don't want that, like I get that, right? Like that feels, that's one of the ways I feel like I'm trying to strive for accountability is where it makes sense and where I actually know the people and can do that to reach out and say, are you okay with this? Especially when it's not just referencing your published work, but saying like I'm referencing a conversation we had, even though was a public conversation. Anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:08.335)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:30.068)
So that's part of the accountability, certainly citing people. But you're right, there is a point of, when you said that, what immediately came up for me is one of the people that I will be referencing in the book, who is one of my leader or teachers is Feminista Jones, who we follow each other on threads. And when I posted I was writing a book, I of course saw she liked it. And I immediately felt this sense of like, good, she probably would never even read it. But if she does, is it gonna be the kind of thing that she thinks?
Taina Brown she/hers (14:52.552)
Hmph.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:59.06)
Good job, Becky. Like you did this right? Or is she gonna be like, another white bitch coming along, right? You know, whatever, like just here we go again with another white person taking and citing my work. And now she's, again, I'm not gonna make any money, but you know what I mean? That feeling that comes up of like, and it's ultimately, I can only control what I can control, but there is that, I think inside of some of this imposter syndrome is that feeling of like, what if the people, what if people I respect, it's one thing when it's random strangers.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:00.452)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:12.708)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:17.304)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:26.893)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:27.616)
The people I respect that I care about, you, Faith, other people that I like, there are people I'm referencing in this book, Adrienne Marie Brown, not that I know her, but what if they have thoughts? What if they think the world didn't need this book or what? Who was Becky to think that she should have done this? You know what I mean? And it's like, is.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:47.769)
Yeah. Well, if it's a conversation, people will have thoughts, right? But like, think this, yeah, but I think this goes back to just like...
Becky Mollenkamp (15:52.318)
You're right. And they should have right to those thoughts.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:01.323)
just the core of humanity, like our humanity, right, of wanting to be seen, but then that fear of rejection when it comes to being seen. And so that's what I'm hearing right now. It's like, there's all these people that you respect and that you will be in conversation with as you write this book. But if they reject it, then what does that mean for you?
Becky Mollenkamp (16:30.216)
it like even just yeah, there's clearly stuff there that I also have to sit with and like work with myself through because just when you say it, I'm like, like I can feel the pain of that. I'm like, God, I'm not. I don't want that to happen. But also, I can't please everyone. I can do the things again, like you said, with accountability, I can do the things that are within my control to show up in the way that I want to show up in the world as ethically, as generously as rest.
reciprocally, like all the things, the ways that I want to show up in the world. I can do this to the best of my ability. And I don't get to, and here's probably some of that white supremacist conditioning coming in. I don't get to control how others perceive it. And I think I can feel that wanting to, like wanting to be like, no, I want to do whatever it takes to make sure you like me, right? And that I want to control that. And I don't get to, I don't get to. And I think that is what's scary for people listening to, just like putting
Taina Brown she/hers (17:14.254)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:21.516)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:28.704)
anything that we're putting out in the world. I think that is scary. It's really scary to release that and just to say, to be able to sit with like, I've done what I can. I am in a place of feeling good and still leaving space for if someone was to come and say, here are my thoughts, that conversation. And I learn and recognize I could have done differently, like leaving space for that accountability. But also at some point having to just be like, I have to just.
be okay with the fact that I don't get to control how other people receive something. And that's really hard. It's really hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:59.52)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the catch-22 of like...
being seen. Like, there's the good parts that feel amazing, that feel really validating, but then there's also having to contend with that fear of rejection.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:10.602)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:21.94)
Right? The threat of the bad, which you truly, think, most for most of us, if we can look with a critical lens, doesn't happen very often. Right? That worst case, that scary stuff doesn't usually even happen. We're afraid of it, but it doesn't really happen very often. So the good almost always outweighs the bad. And yet we give such space to the bad that we let it almost taint the good.
So yeah, I mean, know that this is gonna be something I'm gonna have to just like continue to contend with through this whole process. And the big work for me is to not let it shut me down because I can feel that wanting to come up of just being like, is it even worth it? Like why? Like all of that. And maybe I need to get a little more grounded in my why too. The why I think feels a bit selfish and maybe that's the other piece.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:59.895)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:15.127)
Why does it feel selfish?
Becky Mollenkamp (19:16.796)
And fucking hell, there it is, Tayina, because also I can point right now, my mind immediately goes to things I've been writing about, selfish and greedy and all of these things that we've been conditioned, especially I think as women, to feel when we do something that centers our own desires. Because a lot of my why is centering my desires. Not all of it, but a lot of it is. It is in service of like, I want to be able to be on more shows, like podcasts and things.
I want to have more people asking me to be in those conversations you're talking about, right? And a book is one of those things that often opens some of those doors and allows for some of that to happen. that feels like, saying it out loud right now, it feels gross and selfish and icky. And I need to contend with that because it's okay. It's okay to want that, especially if I'm doing it. think, oh, go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:08.824)
Yeah. also don't think that's the end of your why. Like I think sometimes, like, because sure, that's why. But then if you ask, well, why do you want to be on those podcasts? Why do you want people to ask you? And why do you want to be having these conversations? Well, it's because you're a business owner and part of your business.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:17.406)
Was not, you're right.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:26.272)
You're right.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:31.304)
Yeah, and I wanted to benefit my business, but I wanted to benefit our business with Messy Liberation. I want to benefit the business I run with Faith and Feminist Founders. I wanted to benefit the Feminist Podcasters Collective, which benefits not just me, but the entire group of the people inside of that space. And I wanted to benefit these conversations, right? Like, I want it to be a benefit of business, doing business in a more ethical, human-first way.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:00.268)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:01.79)
So all of that does feel like a better why. And also my word of the year for 2026 is curation. I want to better curate my own life, but I also want to better show up as a curator for others to be seen as that person that people can trust as a curator to say, I trust that you are going to bring together voices that need to be heard that I'm going to want to hear. I'm going to trust that if I'm in space and in collaboration with you, it's going to be something really enriching because you're going to bring together all of these people that will
the collective creates a better experience for all of us. Like that's how I want to show up in this book also in the way I'm trying to approach it feels like a curated experience because it really is. It's my voice, but I can looking over there the stack of like 20 books that I'm referencing and pulling from and like all of the knowledge that I'm bringing into that space and citing and it's like it's this curated experience for people who don't have time to read all.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:43.123)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:48.382)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:00.384)
20 or 30 of these books, right? So there is that why. And you're right. So I think I need to do a little better at holding that for myself so that when that voice comes up. I don't know if I like our new format, Taina, because this feels a little vulnerable. It's a lot easier to talk about why Trump's an asshole than it is to talk about my own shit.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:00.939)
20 of those books, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:08.755)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:22.109)
I hear you, I hear you. This morning I was like, what's my mess? And I'm like, I don't know. What am I gonna talk about?
Becky Mollenkamp (22:29.002)
we were supposed to report back on last week's mess really quickly. I just want to say the school board thing didn't even happen. So if you listened last week and I said I was going to go to school board drama, like a teacher apparently called the media, the principal got, I think, scolded. Not that that was the exact word used, but I believe that's kind of what happened. I think the principal was kind of like, whoa, this is going to actually potentially cause more harm than good. So let's back off and re think about it. I went to the PTO meeting last night. The principal kind of made it clear like,
Taina Brown she/hers (22:36.82)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:58.804)
There are some things happening in the background. I'm going to report as I can, but let's be mindful of the politics of this situation was sort of the message. And so that's my update was first I was not going to be, I was told I wouldn't be speaking after we talked. And then within another hour or two, I found out none of us were doing it and it was all, so there's my update. Did Melo hear your conversation?
Taina Brown she/hers (23:04.681)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:15.562)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:21.541)
don't think she's listened to last week's episode yet, but I will say I did also talk to my therapist about what we discussed on last week's episode of the podcast. And she gave me some really good perspective in terms of like, because I think what I was struggling with or one of the things I was struggling with was like, as I said last week, I am an incredibly detached person from other people.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:22.976)
because yeah, it was on YouTube. don't think it's been out yet.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:50.924)
And so there's always a part of me that's like, well, your feelings are not my responsibility, right? Like that's for you to deal with. that can, I can take that to extreme levels, right? It's that's a truth, that's a fact. But when you're in a partnership, it's, it kind of is part of your responsibility, right? So it's, there's.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:08.352)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:14.112)
I fully, fully understand this.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:19.467)
It's a shared experience that you're having with people, whether it's a partner or a friend or even a coworker, us together as business partners. so one thing that my therapist said was like, well, where you can draw the line is like, are you adding to the feelings or are you keeping the boundary with?
like where the feelings are, right? Like if you're contributing to those feelings, then that's something that you have to, like if something you're doing or saying is contributing to those feelings, then that's your responsibility. But if you're doing your best to like not contribute to any kind of like feelings or whatnot, it's the other person's responsibility to manage their feelings. And I thought that was a really good way to frame that. So that's my update.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:12.64)
Okay, well we have a little bit of time left for your mouth. So what, has anything come to you? And by the way, it doesn't have to be your mess. We also talked about these messes can be, it could be a mess you observed externally. It doesn't have to be your specific mess.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:15.27)
Yeah, so my mess.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:23.162)
Yeah, yeah. So my mess, my wife and I were actually talking about this over the weekend about the news about Trump giving Bill Clinton a BJ.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:40.224)
My husband has been very obsessed with that story and talking about nonstop. And the truth is, I've seen nothing about it other than what he keeps telling me. So I know it's out there somewhere in the ether, but it's not really showing up in my like curing.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:49.115)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:53.226)
Well, they're doing a really good job at controlling the media output about it, I think.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:02.858)
Well, can you tell me then as, because I love my husband if you're listening, I love you. And I don't always, I think sometimes I'm just like, he's like telling me these things and they're funny and like, I don't know how, where he's getting, he could be getting the information from like, who knows where. So do, is there enough like what feels potentially credible for stuff behind this that, I gotta say, this is true, it is beyond.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:17.704)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:23.525)
Yes, yes, yes. It was all over TikTok for like 24 hours. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:29.94)
That's beyond shocking to me, actually. And there's very little that shocks me about Trump anymore. But that really does shock me, given his narcissistic nature. It just, it does feel a little, I don't know, it doesn't feel like him.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:43.306)
Yeah, I mean, I will preface this by saying I haven't done my research here. I am just...
Becky Mollenkamp (26:49.15)
Yeah, also like wild rumors, allegedly all the things that keep us from getting sued.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:56.029)
Yeah, allegedly Trump gave Bill Clinton a BJ. But it was all over TikTok. It was all over TikTok a few days ago. if it's true, you know, one thing my wife said that made sense to me was like, she said, well, she said it makes sense because he really does hate women.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:59.973)
You're, we're talking decades ago at this point, right? Decades ago?
Becky Mollenkamp (27:21.354)
That does make sense. I think often when we see these really deeply misogynistic men, and this is not, I'm not saying this is the case here, allegedly blah, blah, but often we find out they are either, well, that they are often unable to come to terms with their own feelings of whether it is I am gay, I'm bi, whatever, but the feeling of attraction towards
Taina Brown she/hers (27:21.969)
And so, and it's like.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:37.959)
in the closet.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:49.062)
men, and the only way they can kind of shut that down is to feel more quote unquote manly. And how do they do that? But by objectifying, belittling, you know, all of that around women. And so I'm always deeply suspicious of men that are that blatantly misogynistic. I mean, I don't know if they recognize that, but I think most women, that's one of the first thoughts that we have, and more evolved men. Like, I think our thoughts immediately go to that with a lot of men, like
Taina Brown she/hers (27:59.592)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:04.585)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:15.849)
It's like, are you in the closet? Yeah. I think it's because, you know, it's a power thing, right? Like we are conditioned that in this society that like being masculine means being powerful and being masculine and powerful means having power over women. And so if you equate homosexuality with being effeminate,
then that means you are seen as weak, you are seen as less powerful, you see gay men as being feminine, right? Or you feminize gay men and then that means that you treat them like women in your eyes. So if you feel like you are gay, then there's self-hatred there.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:55.712)
Right, and me?
Right, and like, let's be clear, homophobia amongst men in particular, it shares its roots, if not has a direct, I mean, it is not exactly the same as misogyny. That's what that homophobia is about. It is about hating femininity and being perceived as somebody who could potentially be feminine, which by the way, because, right.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:18.589)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:22.825)
Yeah, yeah. So how do you take your power back, right? You become hyper masculine, you objectify women, you belittle them, you womanize, right? You rape them, right? Like you put them in their place. And so, yeah, but yeah, that.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:37.12)
And not even women either, by the way. Like you do that with women and girls as if, as we've learned from the Epstein situation, because these are not, I'm right now, I don't know about you, but fucking furious with all of the media outlets that keep talking about young underage women is what they keep calling them, underage women. You're not a woman when you're underage, right? Call them what they are, call them girls, but they're, again, it's this way of controlling and shifting the narrative.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:57.596)
They're girls.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:03.822)
Lingya.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:05.598)
that is infuriating. And this is all part and parcel with them.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:07.44)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I, like, when I, when I first started seeing the TikToks, I was just like, what? What the hell? Like,
Becky Mollenkamp (30:22.176)
Do you ever have that suspicion around Bill Clinton? okay, because we've talked about all the reasons why maybe it adds up with But again, there's a difference, suppose. There's not. There is probably a perceived difference amongst the men of being receiver versus giver. Again, all of this is so, this whole conversation is so like heteronormative and.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:29.723)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:40.251)
Versus giver. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:45.447)
It's just...
Becky Mollenkamp (30:48.128)
and homophobic and like, I just want make sure like, this is not how we perceive these things, but how I could see they might. But I did think like, that's interesting. I mean, but you know, also.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:49.371)
Ha!
Taina Brown she/hers (30:53.093)
No, no.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:02.356)
Bill's off working his shit.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:02.439)
mean, when the whole Monica Lewinsky thing happened, right, one of his defenses was that he was a sex addict. I remember that very clearly. So I'm just like, well, I mean, if it's true that he's a sex addict, then that makes sense. Like, I think people who have an addiction to sexual acts, like, it doesn't matter where you're getting it from, right? It's about the release. But then I also...
Becky Mollenkamp (31:26.304)
But yeah, but there's also still, there's something with that. okay. That was, sorry, that you're talking men versus women. Cause I was back on Epstein Girls and that there is a difference there, but that's not what you're, yeah. Got it. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:31.623)
Mm-hmm.
no, no, I'm talking, yeah. But then I also thought, was like, God, I really fucking feel bad for Monica Lewinsky.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:47.072)
I have felt bad for Monica Lewinsky. I literally like every day of my life since 1990, whatever that was, two, one.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:53.859)
Yeah, I was like she had her mouth on the same thing Donald Trump allegedly had his mouth on.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:00.416)
Well, she got it first, so he had her sloppy seconds. I guess, although I don't know if we know the timeline.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:05.552)
I don't know the timeline, but either way, that's like, that's like.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:07.306)
some evening.
Do you know how many mouths have probably been in that space?
Taina Brown she/hers (32:14.692)
But Donald Trump...
Becky Mollenkamp (32:16.82)
Well, I mean, that's...
Taina Brown she/hers (32:18.744)
It's like, what, like the six or seven degrees of Kevin Bacon? It's like, now you're connected to this person in that way.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:25.5)
Unfortunately, I mean, I really, don't know if you've ever listened to like Monica's podcast, follow her on social or anything. I haven't really listened to much of her podcast. I've listened to one episode. I do follow her on social media and I really, I like her. know, like I really feel like she has, she came out of that situation. She was so fucking mistreated. Everything about that, like.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:39.803)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:47.983)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:50.804)
Talk about a wrong that needs to be righted, right? Like, especially in the wake of everything that's going on with Epstein and all of this, like, God, all of us over the deepest apologies. And listen, it's not like in the grand scheme of wrongs in the world, there's many others, right? But just that whole situation, she was treated exactly, although honestly, it's what's happening now with a lot of these Epstein victims, calling them, you know, underage women. And Monica was...
Taina Brown she/hers (33:04.099)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:15.349)
Yeah, underage women, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:20.448)
If that had happened post-MeToo, I think it would be viewed so differently. Because just the power dynamics at play and the fact that that was so very little of the narrative at the time. That's just not something that we talked about. I don't know, really hope the fact that Trump got enough pressure, he had to turn around and say, OK, release the files, and that enough Republicans felt safe to vote in that way. I'm hoping maybe, I mean, I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:24.13)
Mm-hmm
Taina Brown she/hers (33:27.78)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:49.844)
They're all gonna be redacted. It's gonna be so redacted. This is not really gonna tell us anything.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:53.192)
I know, I know, I just... And I watched a video with that Dean Gra- whatever his name is, he's an idiot too, but he's one of these guys who gets on YouTube and fights Republicans and conservatives and MAGA people, because he's, you know, more progressive. But there was somebody who called into his show and was like, so tell me what's wrong with having sex with underage women, underage women, right? So what's wrong with having sex with girls? And he was like, is that...
Taina Brown she/hers (34:18.85)
Excuse me.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:22.512)
Are you? Is that your question? You want me to say why it's not OK? And he's like, yeah, why is it not OK? This is like a Trump defender. And this is I mean, you look at what Megyn Kelly is doing to like this is the path they're taking, which is we now are going to dare you get to normalize this behavior. And the fact that there are so few people who see that that's so fucked up and that one of them is Marjorie Taylor Green, like that she's now the voice of reason, which
Taina Brown she/hers (34:37.507)
Just normalize it, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:51.966)
makes my head want to explode. Like, I just, I hope we can come out of this in a different place. I don't know that we can, but maybe, maybe.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:53.453)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:00.921)
Yeah, yeah. I think some of that is just playing chicken, right? And I think some of it is just people just don't understand the concept of consent, like what that means. Like you can't consent if there's a power differential.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:13.225)
No.
They do not. We don't teach enough about consent for sure. And that is a problem. Do you think that Magov men, if they actually had a video, I know it doesn't exist, whatever, I'm just, this is now very hypothetical, allegedly hypothetical, all that. But if there were a video to come out of clearly Trump, clearly Bill Clinton, clearly not AI, of this act happening, would that be enough for his crazies to his cult?
Taina Brown she/hers (35:19.034)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:44.788)
to finally say, is the bridge too far for me? I know that having sex with young girls isn't gonna do it, but could that be the thing? I don't know.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:50.755)
Yeah. Maybe for a small handful, but my question is that I was like, clearly to who? Like there's the ignorance is so willful sometimes that people see and hear what they want to. So you can show someone all the proof that this video has not been doctored. It's not AI. Like it's real. And they will still say, no, that's, that's fake. It's a deep fake. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:03.764)
Yeah, you couldn't. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:14.752)
fake news. Well, I Trump has done a great job of that, hasn't he? I mean, I don't even want to say anything that sounds remotely like I'm praising him. But I will say, I don't know if it's intelligence, but he has, yeah, like there's, I don't know. He is what a classic cult leader is. He's really good at narratives. He's really good at mind fuckery. He has
Taina Brown she/hers (36:25.283)
No, he's an excellent con artist.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:33.839)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:41.384)
and planting those seeds so early on because that whole planting the fake news thing, which he's been doing for 20 years now, it really comes to play. you've sit there and think, is it because he was smart enough to know and he's playing, he's been playing long chess, which is what his people want you to believe. He's been playing this long chess game and planting all these seeds, knowing eventually this stuff was gonna come out. So if I start with the fake news early, then by the time any real-
Taina Brown she/hers (36:44.557)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:52.184)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:07.872)
No, I don't think he's smart enough for that. think he's a pawn. I think someone else is maybe smart enough to have done that, and he's the pawn, but.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:09.6)
I don't think so either, I don't wanna believe it.
Steve Banner. I don't know Steve Banner. I don't know. He's good.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:18.852)
I haven't heard that name in forever. God, please.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:23.646)
You know he's in the files. Okay. It's so gross. And there's really nothing there except pure mess. It's just such a mess. And the part that to me is the most upsetting about all of it is how normalized so much of this disgusting, vile behavior is.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:28.288)
It is.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:36.62)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the difference, you know, and I just want to say like, yes, we're messy. The name of our show is Messy Liberation. The name of our membership is the Messy Liberation Coaches Circle. They're messy, right? But the difference is like, this mess is a creative process. That mess is an implosion, like a devolution, a regressive tactic. Yes, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:57.662)
Well, right. Our math is a mess towards progress. This is a mess erasing progress. Yeah, yeah. And I don't know what to do with that, except just in some places, it's like you just have to find your people. And I don't know if you and Melo have been having a good laugh at it. And by the way, like if you see people having a good laugh at this, it's because sometimes that's the only thing that will keep you from going crazy, because that's where my head is off and out where I'm just like, so it makes you so angry.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:04.061)
Yes. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:20.833)
Yes.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:27.508)
It starts to make you feel like literally like I've lost my mind. Sometimes you just have to laugh to survive. And I do feel like maybe some of that's what this is. It's just like, give us something to at least laugh at.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:33.347)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I can be angry about this, but I can also laugh about it. Like it's called nuance people. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:47.102)
Yeah, that's what mess is, right? Really by mess, nuance, and that's not something people understand. All right, well, this was an interesting one, Sorry about the technical glitches. We'll see how much of that gets edited out. But also some of the stuff gets left in because I don't want to spend hours on editing all the little things. And so you get you don't throw it as my kid's kindergarten teacher taught. And that has been our favorite saying that any teacher has ever given us. You get what you get and you don't throw a fit.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:55.309)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:05.334)
Yeah, it is what it is.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:17.512)
Okay, was good to see you. Bye.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:18.595)
We'll see you guys next week.