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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
CJ: All right.
We're, we're, We're good now.
, Duke: but what are we talking about today?
CJ: Duke.
We got a special guest with us today.
We've got Mark Bodman.
Who is the amazing, amazing,
amazing expert at DC MDV.
Duke: And not only CMDB,
but also CSDM too, right?
Mark: CSDM.
Yes.
Yes.
, I was in the room when we created
that at a knowledge in 2017.
So we kind of created the idea to do that.
So, yeah.
CJ: Why I thought you
were the inventor of it.
I felt like I'd let you
say that part though.
Mark: Well, I mean, I don't
have a history in operations.
My history is more enterprise
architecture, strategic
planning and development.
So I don't know how I
landed in the CMDB space.
It was really a little bit of a fluke.
But yeah, it's proven to be very
beneficial for everybody, though.
Duke: Well, , the reason we reached
out to you, Mark, is that, at least
from my perspective, , the customers
I deal with they have a hard enough
time with CMDB, let alone CSDM, and
we're trying to try demystify CMDB,
demystify CSDM for the everyday person.
Mark: Yeah, not not an easy
thing to do, by the way.
CJ: I was going to say no pressure.
Duke: I mean, that's why we,
that's why we brought you though.
Right?
Mark: yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, it really
says it in the name.
When you spell it out, it's
the common service data model
is what CSDM stands for.
When we started this effort, it was
called originally definition of service
DOS, and that was just a horrible name
for many reasons, but we changed it to
CSDM because it wasn't just defining
a service, it was all the other data
model elements that go along with it.
So that's kind of how we became CSDM.
Duke: okay, so you were in
the room when it happened.
What was the catalyst for that
conversation to begin with?
Mark: so little, little background.
I came in here to service now to manage a
product called app portfolio management.
so my, background is strategic
planning, rationalizing apps.
I used to work for a company
called true that did a software.
I was at HP software as a strategist,
their enterprise architect.
And when I came here to manage
APM, I kind of thought, Oh, great.
You know, we're going to join forces,
, same platform, same data model.
Well, I found out it wasn't really
the same data model and we had
little pockets of data model and , I
started running into my, peer product
managers in terms of like, , what
service do I use in my APM product?
Right.
Which ones do I refer to?
And we had like.
100 different types of services,
and I didn't know which one to use,
and nobody could explain it for me,
what services were which, what they
really meant, and how they were used,
you know, by other products here.
So it was, it was myself.
There was an ITOM representative, and
there was a, I T S M representative
in the room and we just got together.
We got our leadership to kind of agree
to bring us together and we discussed
well, we need to sort this out.
It was an escalation point
because we were frustrated.
Our customers were frustrated and we said,
well, we need to be on common ground.
Hence, the name common service data model.
CJ: Nice.
Mark: that was sort of the driver.
And my colleague scott lem who was in
expert services I don't know if any any
of you guys know scott from from way back
CJ: I don't.
Mark: Yeah, so he's been around a while.
He's more heavily focused on asset
management, but also heavily on cmdb
too he started taking this work we were
doing right amongst the product managers
And showing it to customers and they
loved it Probably not everybody but a
lot of them did because it helps sort
out where they put their data , it
just kind of snowballed from there.
I mean it it's been a long journey.
I mean The apm product is pretty mature.
It keeps evolving, right?
But I I came over to csdm and
cmdb to get this thing moving in
a bigger way and it has it's been
it's just taken over most of my life
CJ: Oh, wow.
I kind of feel the same way
about ServiceNow, truthfully.
You know, it's interesting to say
that on the eve of Knowledge, right?
Like, where my entire week, honestly, my
entire May, you know, revolves around,
like, two different things, right?
It revolves around Knowledge.
And then secondarily, it involves
around Mother's Day for my, , for
my wife, from the kids perspective.
Right?
And so, like, those are the two things
that exist in May in my life now.
And, uh, yeah.
And so, I guess you've got, , the CSDM.
Mark: Yes, yes, my daughters have,
are grown and out of the house.
So, uh, one of them is one quarter
as of today, she's a quarter way
done with her veterinary degree.
So she's going to be a veterinary doctor.
So,
CJ: That's awesome.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Duke: All right, so forgive me if I'm
asking the question a 2nd time, but.
if we just erased all the progress
you guys made on CSDM, to the average
ServiceNow customer, what is the, like,
the annoying, frustrating, itchy pain?
What is the gaping wound
that's still left over?
Mark: yeah.
So if CSDM weren't here, okay.
There would be a couple of problems, i'll
start with the internal problems with
our plus product managers We've grown
a lot right when I joined the company.
We're like 4 000 people now We're
24 000 and there's a lot of products
as you probably know we've kind of
expanded into so many other areas
And the first problem is our product
management folks wouldn't know how to
talk to each other, what our data is,
what is common across the products.
We would design complete isolated
products on this platform.
Nothing would talk to anything else.
That would be the result.
And if we did talk to each
other, it would be accidental.
It's like, Oh, everybody uses the CMDB.
Oh yeah.
Car sorta, not the same way.
So we would all be in little pockets.
The advantage of being on the platform.
I always tell customers
is we can share our data.
We can share and contribute
to the data that we use.
So we need, not just the workflow.
So workflows we talk
about quite a bit, but.
A lot of the workflows have
to refer to the same data.
I'll just pick on like locations.
That's an easy one.
The location hierarchy is shared
by a lot of different processes
and workflows in the platform.
But if that ain't right, everybody's
going to be off on a different page
with, with regards to a location data.
that's a simple one, but that gets,
that's, that's our first problem is
the products themselves would be all
isolated or it'd be a jumbled mess.
CJ: Yeah, I got to tell you, I like
that you, you picked on the location
table there because even prior to , the
CSDM, one of the things that I always
found that was common across like the
various, processes and service now was.
Location, right?
Like you had a, you have a request or a
client that's, part of a process, right?
And you often want to know where
they are so that you can call
them back or send someone to their
desk or, anything like that.
And , one of the early selling
points for us when I was still on
the service, now customer side was
the fact that the data model, , even
started in a place where a lot of
those common, , feels like that were.
federated across some of the processes.
And of course, CSDM just takes
it to the next level, right?
Mark: Yeah, we kind of stepped in
to manage what's common because
there was nobody it's kind of
like, you know, you own it.
No, you want it.
No, you want it.
Nobody really took ownership of
this stuff, which was common.
And we kind of stepped in and we do that.
Duke: Are the CSDM tables in the CMDB,
or are they just a collection of tables
Mark: some are, yeah,
some are and some are not.
I'll pick on service for a
minute because under the covers,
the service tables are C.
I.
S.
We treat them like C.
I.
S.
But they're not really
representative infrastructure.
So if you're an item customer,
you're managing data centers.
You don't really think about
the services when you're C.
I.
S.
So the lines of your traditional cmdb
are blurry, but when I came aboard
the business applications, that's an
architecture thing It's very high level.
Like I said, my background
is strategic planning.
It's in it's a they're a ci there's but
they're not a traditional operational
thing That, you know, you would
discover they're not representative
of something in the data center.
It's a higher level concept.
, so that's what kind of drove us to
work together to figure out what is the
right data model for us to all coexist.
We're all in the same boat.
How do we all create our own little
room, but then what's the common area?
I was in the military and you live in
barracks and, , you've got your own
room, but, and you got to share the
common stuff, you know, the bathrooms
and the common eating areas and whatnot.
So that's the idea.
CJ: I like that analogy.
Mark: Yeah.
the second big driver is customers.
They were frustrated.
I remember my first customer that I,
when I first came here in 2016, I went
to visit a customer in Atlanta and.
They were frustrated because they had
all these questions about, well, why are
you having me enter the same information
in three different places, Mark?
And I'm like, I didn't have an answer.
Like, I don't know.
It's you have three different products.
You're going to have to enter the same
information in three different places.
Good luck.
That's not a very good answer, right?
You know, we're on the same platform.
Why aren't we sharing?
So I was exposed to the need
from customers right off the
bat, right when I joined.
Duke: where were they having to
put information multiple places?
Mark: Oh, well, locations one
Duke: Heh.
Mark: picked on that one.
we also had issues with services.
We had over 45 different
types of services.
And this particular customer
was implementing I T.
F.
M.
And there was something
called the financial I.
T.
Service.
And they're like, Mark, these are the
same as the services I'm using for I.
T.
S.
M.
You know, this is the basic business
service table and i'm like, well, I
don't know why you're having to create
it twice So you get you got two products.
You have to create it twice.
Oh add a third one You got another table
to populate so you add that out to 45
different tables And the customer is
scratching their head saying you're asking
me to enter the same exact detail in 45
different places Why would you want me to
do that if you're all on the same platform
CJ: Yeah, you know, and that makes
a lot of sense to write, like
when you think about it, right?
You should only have to enter like
common data or found, is where
we're calling the common data here.
But, you know, as we're talking
about it, because I haven't done
like a phase 1 implementation
and in a while, but when I'm.
When I'm doing those things
with my customers, I call
it foundational data, right?
Uh, and it's the same
thing, though, right?
, you want to populate that data in an
instance because so much builds on top
of it, but you don't want to be entering
it in several different places, right?
, all across the platform, right?
Because then, I mean, it's the
redundancy, but let's, even That
to the side for a second, right?
Like the redundancy to me is like
it is an issue, but it's a smaller
issue compared to the inability to
keep it in sync and keep it accurate,
Mark: Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Not only that, but
common logic would say if you're
on the same platform and, there's
no reason to have separate data.
, and a matter of fact, one of the
things we train our customers or
our product managers when they come
aboard is that before you create
your own separate structures,
look at the common data, right?
Is there something already
there that you can use?
, I'll give you an example in the location.
We had these products that came out,
get back to work and if you bought that
product, It had a completely separate
data structure for locations like your
buildings where you work than the common
location table, and I heard about it
almost immediately because the product
team just created their own space.
And now customers are
saying, wait a minute, why?
Why?
It's a it was a never ending
stream of complaints from customers
that were questioning the fact
that we're not sharing data.
CJ: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense,
especially when you're when you
start to get used to it, right?
Like, at this point, service
now has continues to get mature
with each release, right?
But it's a, you know, if you
look at it from, say, Berlin or
Calgary versus now, I mean, we're
almost at the end of the alphabet.
This is crazy.
I am.
This is nuts.
Um, but we're almost at the
end of the alphabet, right?
And the level of maturity that's
occurred over the course of the alphabet,
It's so insane that when you join
the, , platform now, like you would just
expect this stuff to work in this way.
Right.
Yeah.
Whereas if you've been around for a while,
like you remember when it didn't and
Mark: Well, there was fewer
products on the platform that
depended on the data, right?
When back when we were just service
management, it was no big deal
because we didn't have much of a CMDB.
We didn't have ITOM visibility
or ITOM health or cloud.
And the stuff I personally worked
on with APM, we didn't, you know,
or PPM, all of these things, Agile,
SecOps, so also Business Continuity,
Disaster Recovery Planning, imagine
if they all started from scratch.
Rather than using each other's
data, I mean, it would be so much
more expensive to manage and get
those products up and running if
they didn't use each other's data.
CJ: yeah, that's a good point.
Expensive, right?
Because that does, you know,
going back to the manual upkeep
and the manual population, right.
That does require, resources and it does.
Limit , some of the higher level stuff
that you can do immediately because
you're populating that low level data.
Mark: That's right.
And at the center of it is really what's
in the data center or in the cloud.
we're here in it to create and maintain
what I call digital products were there
to create code that runs somewhere to do
some job, , or provide, a customer feature
or an internal employee, some automation.
, that's where everything starts,
but then everything else around it,
services, the apps, the planning, , the
jobs that, you know, tasks people
do, it's all contextual to that.
It's all surrounding the stuff
you're managing in data centers,
which is where the CMDB sits.
CJ: Okay.
So wait, I just, just, I
want to just back up on that.
And you said we're here to provide,
and can you say that part again?
Because I think that's really key for
a lot of consultants out there to hear.
Um, yeah.
Mark: Yeah.
I mean, ultimately, the
infrastructure is there to provide
applications that run the business.
And these are services that we automate,
you know, self service, , health
care, , if you're in the health care
business, automation of factories,
if you're in a factory situation.
So you have all these
All this automation in I.
T.
Which is providing the core
value for your business.
And so, at the root of it is
what's running in the data center.
It's the CMDB that represents
the core entity, which is
compute with code running on it.
And, , that's what everything
else is context from there.
Duke: Would you say that people should
have a decent CMDB before doing anything
CSDM wise, or do they go in parallel?
Mark: Yeah, they're in parallel.
I mean, we came out with this
framework called crawl, walk, run,
fly, and that's in our CSDM training.
You can get online learning in a bunch of
videos that we've recorded over the years.
, but it is, it does start with a CMDB
perspective, and I like to think about
it is the stuff you can go out and touch.
it's you know, you're managing assets
you're paying for It's real money
being spent on real things cloud
or on premise You start with that
because you can go in inventory.
You can discover it.
Then you build on that to understand
what you think you have i'll just
give you a story from my past.
I was at dell for many years and
One of the things that I we did at
dell was we You Took an inventory of
our applications because we didn't
really know all the apps that we had.
We had 12, 000 after we
came up with the inventory.
Well, those, that inventory
was not connected to what was
running in the data center.
And so we thought we had 12,
000 apps, but in reality it was
six because people miscounted.
and then we further found out a
thousand data, uh, servers in the
data center that had no purpose.
Like, okay, these apps don't tie
out to anything in the data center.
And we,
Duke: Silence.
Mark: um, you know, you gotta have a
tighter control from what you think
you have from an application point
of view to the stuff in the data
center you're managing every day.
And if that's not.
That's what we focused in on crawl.
It's like, okay, if you can't manage
this it shops, then anything you do
beyond that is going to be questionable.
CJ: Yeah.
And, and that, makes a whole
lot of sense to me, it all
needs to be coupled together.
You all need, you need to manage it
in such a way so that, you absolutely
know what you have without having
to, , without having to guess.
Really?
Because yeah.
Because,
Mark: a store and not knowing what's
in the store at any given time.
So you can reorder the right stuff or,
you know, it was broken or stolen, right?
You gotta go back and inventory what's
in your store every period to make sure
you're, you're making up for anything
that happened that you didn't expect.
CJ: yeah, absolutely.
So I think one of the more confusing
parts of the CSDM for me, is the
various different types of services
that all seem to be like almost the
same service, but slightly different.
And, and, and when, which is called
for in the course of an implementation.
Mark: Well Luckily, you don't you
didn't see the 45 or by by some counts.
Somebody said we had 130 different
types of services Okay, so it's
a lot easier than it used to be.
but there's only three now.
There's only three
CJ: Okay.
Mark: All right.
So so the first one is a business service
the best way to think about business
services I know it's the last mile.
It's like the power line connecting
your house You are, you know who
the customer is, you know where
the customer is, location, right?
, and you know the impact to
the customer at that point.
Duke: Okay.
Mark: and states Everybody's kind of
connected in there's a lot of impact
if they go down , but things like ldap
storage services that are kind of under
the covers a layer or two down underneath
the application Design the architecture
of the app and the last thing Last
applicant is the application service.
And to me, that's the one that's
most controversial because the app
service represents logically the
instance of an app, including all of
its infrastructure network devices.
And so when I think about an
application like service now, you
know, you have to stand that up.
We run on our infrastructure.
We have resource.
There's a database.
There's storage, right?
All of these pieces are required to work
together to make, , service network.
Now you don't have access to that as
a customer, but we have to manage it.
CJ: So,
Duke: to, I want to trouble
click on that too, because that's
basically how I test myself.
If I get it or not, what I'm building
in service now is like, can I
model service now in service now?
But from the customer perspective,
of course, I don't have to worry
about, the cloud or as I like to
call it, somebody else's computer.
there's so many applications
within ServiceNow.
Like when I was the product owner
at a company, it was like, okay,
well we've got ServiceNow in general.
We've got G-R-C-S-P-M-I-T-S-M, and
the 40 different apps underneath that.
How do you model all of that in the CMBB
Mark: Yeah, so
Duke: Is that more of A-C-M-B-B question
or more of A-C-S-D-M question or both?
Mark: yeah, it's a both.
And matter of fact, there's less, I
would say, requirement for plastic seem
to be an infrastructure because that's
not a big part of modeling service.
Now it's, it's more at the logical level.
It's the app service structures.
We, You have in our youtube channel
a number of examples and platforms.
It's we're a platform That's kind of
our shtick and we have a a example model
on how to model any platform Not just
service now, right but sap is considered
a platform sharepoint in all the sites So
that sharepoint is considered a platform.
It's there to host many sites
so there's a pattern for that.
I'm an architect.
They think about patterns and the
reusability of these patterns And so
as a platform we have structures In
the CSDM that explain exactly that.
So we use the app service to decouple and
delineate the application from a instance
of the, platform and the products that run
on it, because oftentimes in a company,
a big company, you'll have a platform
owner, which manages the platform itself,
and then each product does something
different for some other stakeholder.
So we have to decouple those in how
we're managing them operationally.
I don't know if that helps.
It's hard to do this without a
Duke: Yeah, it's like
CJ: Ha ha ha.
Duke: time we're sorry, we're audio only,
Mark: you know, but I mean, think
about ownership and responsibility
that drives that logical layer, right?
When we're when we're talking
about Oh, what do you own?
What do you not own?
You got to point to something.
And even if it's in the cloud and service
now platform, you got to separate out the
owner of the platform versus the Owner
of the apps like I own change management.
I don't own the service now.
So there's a different person That's
got to approve the upgrade to change
management if you want to upgrade that
versus just the whole darn platform
Duke: and it's not just
the ownership as much.
I mean, just the fact that the
separate things exist on it.
So you can, as a service now product or
platform owner, you can see the types of
things that eat up all your resources.
Mark: Exactly.
Duke: why do we have to spit?
Like, why is like, 80 percent of our
work focused on incident management
Mark: That's right
Duke: You know and Silence.
Mark: there's a cost to it as well
And there's controls to who can access
these products that we sell who's
accessing hrsd versus , I don't know
itfm or apm or you know, you name it.
So there's different controls
That we want to put in place
for the apps on the platform
CJ: That's interesting.
, and the way that you said that, and I
just wanna bring back in what you said
previous , to Duke's question here.
'cause it made me think
to how much of the CSDM.
Came out of, uh, you know, because
again, right knowledge is next week.
How much of the CSDM came
out of now on now work
Mark: Believe it or not Not a helpful
CJ: really
Mark: Yeah, and here's the reason we
we have used service now to run service
now for years We have I don't know.
We probably have about 10 different
instances of service now running to run
our company different complete proper.
They're not integrated, right?
But they're well, they're integrated
but not on the same platform instance
So We have a lot of legacy that we're
cleaning up and that's kind of where
a lot of customers are at too, if
they've been on since Aspen or before,
Calgary, so they've got a lot of
unique customizations they've built.
They've got their own data model.
They've got, a huge amount of reporting
and in workflow, all, all kind of
custom made around their custom model.
, and that's where a lot of customers
are trying to, , move over to CSDM.
And, we're included,
we're not quite there yet.
The app service for us is really
the key area we're working on now.
CJ: nice.
So if I were to ask you , and I'm
going to treat this a little bit
like a working session, right.
I'm going to, put myself in
the shoes of the audience.
And if I was to say, what's
the thing that's most.
, commonly done incorrectly with
the CSDM or most or least commonly
understood, what would you say, Mark?
Mark: Well, one is what you already
asked, the difference between these
services, because, , you know, if
you're an ITIL person, you go to ITIL
certification classes, our definitions
are a little different than ITIL.
If you're an architect, our definitions
are a little different from TOGAF or
any of the architecture frameworks.
So we've had to come up with
something that works for everybody.
And so it is a bit of a unique.
Thing.
So you got to look at our definitions
and the products that use and
create these things so that you
understand how they're used.
So that's one is just the service itself.
CJ: Okay.
Mark: the second one is, is
really the application because
we have three applications too.
There's three core services types,
three core applications And application
services is both it's where they come
together So it's kind of interesting
that way we have business apps We have
application services and then we have
just regular apps which are deployed
on individual Computers, really.
so it's just really understanding the
entity, how it's used, where it goes when
you're adopting the platform or moving
data over from your own data model to
what we, what we now provide as guidance.
But those are the two areas
that are probably the hardest.
, now the good news, this is where
it becomes quite interesting.
There are a lot of product features built
over the last two and a half years, three
years now, which Use the Csdm, they,
create the data in the way we prescribe.
So there's one product in particular
that most people aren't even
aware called Service Builder.
So the question about what service to
use is explained right there in plain
text in Service builder, if you used it.
But if you go to the table
structure, you'll scratch your head.
What are of 43 different
tables should I use?
You know?
CJ: Yeah.
So that's actually a good, segue to talk
a little bit about, The difference is
between some of us old guys, like, , me
and to do great been around for a while.
And then some of the newer folks
who are , just getting involved
in service now, And, you know, we
talked a little bit earlier about the
difference in the alphabet, right?
I think I started towards the
end of Berlin, you know, and
now we're on Washington, D.
C.
That's, that's a lot of
letters in between there.
A lot of, right.
And a lot of the stuff though,
that, you know, I learned how to
do back in BCD land, it's become
such muscle memory, even in W land.
I'm still using the, that, um, you
know, those patterns, even though
there might be something better now.
that gives additional context and
probably, guides me in a way that saves
me time and effort and keeps me on the
right track versus, having to figure
it out, like we did in the old days.
And I know one of those things is gen AI,
but there's a lot of these other tools,
like you said, service creator, , that.
I don't think I've integrated
into my tool set yet.
Mark: Yeah, service builder, by the
CJ: There was a builder.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Mark: But that's the thing.
I mean, we are moving so quickly.
It's hard for me to keep up.
I work for the company and we come out
with new stuff so rapidly every quarter.
Now we're no longer, you
know, a family release.
No, no, there's so much
stuff in the store.
It's incredible.
Um,
Duke: stop me from ranting.
Mark: so
Duke: This is why we
like, okay, low key mark.
This is why we'd love to have
you like almost as a regular
appearance on the show.
It is.
I mean, it's one thing for you guys to
be like, whew, this is moving fast, but.
I need you to think about the customer
experience and even the ServiceNow
expert experience, freelance
partner, , whatever the case may be,
like, not only do we look for, like
the new stuff is in the same pile as
Mark: all the old
Duke: years of everything else.
And so like, I frequently go
and try and like, I'm trying to
find information on SPMs, , they
have a new resource record type.
For resource management.
Right.
And how do I find out more about this?
And it's just type into
Google resource management.
It's just forget about it.
You can't find anything.
And so the cure for that is just a
lot more spotlight and a lot more
interaction with the community.
And I wish there was even like,
some kind of chronological thing.
You know what I mean?
Something that just showed, the CSDM
and let me slide from 2024 to 2023 and
kind of like, at least I can go to 2024
and see just the stuff for that year.
Mark: Yeah, I mean, it is hard.
I mean, I can't imagine how it is being
in your shoes where you're, you know, most
of your day is probably getting the job
done for some customers, and not learning
about or understanding what's coming next.
. The volume of information and
change is just incredible.
And we hear about it as product managers.
I mean, our customers complain about it.
We're coming out too fast for them to
consume the products updates, right?
All the changes.
so how do we communicate this and
how do we, keep improving things
while at the same time making sure
that you're on the, same journey?
that's not an easy thing to do.
there's no easy answer.
I could tell you what I've done,
And the reason maybe you're
calling me is I have a principle.
If I have to answer the same
question more than three times,
I record it and I publish it.
I have a, it's like, okay.
So over the last three years, okay.
Four years almost, I've
started to just record things.
Some stuff is small, some stuff is big.
And sometimes I'll bring on a
guest, like you're doing with me.
And I'll, talk about something that I
don't quite understand and ask a bunch
of questions like you are, and I'll
record it and I'll just put it out there.
And that's kind of done a lot
of good to get the, uh, the
information out on various topics.
and just to give you some metrics
the the videos that me and my team
not just me right but my whole team
There's over there's 600 000 views
of these videos now on our community.
youtube, so it's crazy It's it's
really people love this stuff and uh,
I get fan bombed Now it's like mark.
I know your voice.
I've never met you, but I
know your voice like okay
CJ: that's okay.
So co hosting podcast, right.
And, you know, and having folks
listen to it and then showing up at
somewhere like knowledge and then
folks like CJ and, and Right, but,
Mark: Well, that's the problem.
I have that every year too.
I like i'll be walking around
and somebody's saying mark and
I can't get to my destination.
I just keep getting you know Lambasted so
CJ: it's incredibly cool, right?
Like, I love it.
I love meeting people.
I the reason I go to knowledge is
for the people, honestly, right?
And it's just awesome.
But it's it's funny, the, asymmetrical
relationship that it forms with
Mark: I know I
CJ: Right?
Like they feel like they know you
because they've listened to you
every week for like a year, right?
And you know, you've never
seen them before, right?
Mark: I am grateful that I was able to
help them That whatever I did in that
few minutes of recording brought some
answers to them where they didn't have
before and i'm like well You As long
as it's working, I'll keep doing it.
CJ: Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You know,
Mark: No, but I love it.
I love helping people.
My biggest challenge is saying no.
So when somebody comes to me with a
question, I try to get to an answer.
Even if it's not me, it's pointing
them in the right direction.
and I'll be, I know you've been
on the platform for a long time.
I stopped developing code years ago.
I mean, I used to do C and Microsoft
foundation classes way back in the day.
But, , I know we're kind
of low code, no code, but.
, I try to stay out of that and just
try to stick with the problems and
trying to answer problems and direct
people to where they need to go.
Duke: so we got 35 minutes of record.
So, at this point, I'll ask you,
Mark, give you the last word.
Is there one or two things you
wish people would know about CSDM?
You
Mark: by that?
Well, we came out with CSDM as a
compromise, an agreed upon model
among very different disciplines.
My background is
architecture and development.
, my colleagues were not.
That's not their background.
They were infrastructure
managers and service managers.
So, if you study CSDM and
you can map it to your world,
it'll mean a lot more to you.
And it's represented, at least
for us, a way to put everybody
involved on the same picture.
Because previous to CSDM,
that just didn't exist.
So, figure out where you sit.
You don't need to know it all.
You just need to agree and understand
the map where you fit and then
use that as your common map when
you're talking to your colleagues.
that's the big thing.
CJ: and I know, , 35 minutes, but
I just want, Mark, one last thing.
is there anything at knowledge that's
going on with the CSDM that you
Mark: Oh, yes.
Duke: only get to pick five.
Mark: Yeah, well, there's gonna
be some big announcements around
LLM, as you probably can guess.
You're probably seeing hints of that.
the big thing for us is announcing
version 5 and when that's
coming out and what's included.
we've been hinting on that as
well in a couple different venues.
But, think about this.
An LLM is only as good as
the data that goes into it.
CJ: That's true.
Yep.
Mark: so that makes you
think how important is CSTM?
How important is the CMDB to get it right?
To be trusting it, entirely to do all
this other LLM stuff you're doing.
so your house is only as
good as the foundation and.
This data is the foundation.
Yes.
Yes.
Duke: we're going to have
Mark send us some of the links
that he was talking about.
We'll get them in the
description below for you.
Otherwise, check out ServiceNow's,
YouTube channel and search for CSDM.
Mark, thank you so much
for coming to the show.
I really hope we can make this a
regular thing, so that we can really
get CSDM to just be that, that one
thing everybody does and does it
super well because they understand it.
Mark: Understand it
from your point of view.
You don't have to you know, a lot of folks
they're not architects They're not going
to understand everything in there But
You're a slice of the world know where
you fit where you sit and how everybody
else relates and then you're good to go
Duke: Awesome.
Thanks for so much for coming, Mark.
And, uh, thanks everybody for listening.
We'll see you on the next one.
Mark: My pleasure