Episode 124: The Quest For The Most Sustainable Bra, with Sam of Broad Lingerie

The most sustainable bra is one that fits you well, makes you feel your best, and gets a lot of wear and proper care. Sam Conover of Broad Lingerie is here to help us on our own personal quest for the most sustainable bra, with stops along the way to discuss Rock of Love, corporate greed, and beige lingerie.

Show Notes

The most sustainable bra is one that fits you well, makes you feel your best, and gets a lot of wear and proper care. Sam Conover of Broad Lingerie,Toronto’s D+ bra and swimwear shop. is here to help us on our own personal quest for the most sustainable bra, with stops along the way to discuss Rock of Love, corporate greed, and beige lingerie.
Find Broad Lingerie on IG as @broadlingerie and on Twitter.

Find this episode's transcript (and so much more) at clotheshorsepodcast.com

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Thumbprint is Detroit's only fair trade marketplace, located in the historic Eastern Market.  Our small business specializes in products handmade by empowered women in South Africa making a living wage creating things they love like hand painted candles and ceramics! We also carry a curated assortment of  sustainable/natural locally made goods. Thumbprint is a great gift destination for both the special people in your life and for yourself! Browse our online store at thumbprintdetroit.com and find us on instagram @thumbprintdetroit.

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Creators & Guests

Host

Amanda Lee McCarty

What is Clotheshorse with Amanda Lee McCarty?

Host Amanda Lee McCarty (she/they) decodes and demystifies the fashion and retail industries, and takes on topics like consumerism, workers rights, personal style, and why fashion is a case study in capitalism gone awry.
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"If you wear clothes, you need to listen to Clotheshorse." --Elise
"If you are human and live in the world, you need to listen to Clotheshorse." --Individually Wrapped

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that has been wearing exclusively black bras since 7th grade. Yes, I dyed them pretty ineptly with RIT dye, so they were more of a brownish grey, but it’s the sentiment that counts, right?

I’m your host Amanda and this is episode 124. You have probably noticed that it’s a long one! And that’s because my guest Sam and I discovered that we can talk about bras for a very long time. Rather than split this conversation into two episodes, I decided to just do it all at once, which worked out very well for me because my day job has been kicking my ass very hard for the past few weeks and while this episode still required hours of editing and other work, it felt like such a relief to NOT spend hours researching and writing!

So Sam is the owner of Broad Lingerie based in Toronto, Ontario. And Broad has a singular purpose. I had Sam sent me her “elevator pitch” and I love it so much that I’m going to read it to you: “ Many full-busted people find bra shopping stressful and awkward. But that’s no way to live! Broad Lingerie is a different kind of shop. One where you don’t have to ask if we carry your size. Where your voice is heard. Where you’re treated with respect. Where bra shopping can actually be fun!”

When Sam first reached out to me, she wasn’t intending to be a guest on the podcast. And she was shocked when I asked her to be because well, the world of bras isn’t very sustainable. It’s full of plastic and synthetic fibers and all of other things I’m constantly disdaining here on Clotheshorse. BUT I do think that the real issue with the sustainability (or lack thereof) in lingerie, especially bras is not the materials or trims (which kinda need to be what they are in order to do their jobs) but instead the overconsumption of these items. From bra subscription services (no, we don’t need three or four new bras every month) to the so-called “rules” around bras/lingerie like “everyone should own a nude bra” to “each neckline/style of garment requires a different kind of bra,” we’re kinda being mislead into overconsuming bras. To top it all off, a lot of bras just don’t fit us properly, so we keep buying more and more of them. And a lot of us don’t know how to care for the bras we own, so we’re shortening the lifespan of them.

I’m going to say this multiple times in my conversation with Sam (and probably again afterwards) but I’ll just say it now, too: The most sustainable bra is one that fits you well, makes you feel your best, and gets a lot of wear and proper care. It doesn’t matter where you bought it. Would I love for all of the workers making bras to be paid a living wage and work under great conditions? Yes definitely. And so there are some brands I skip altogether (like Victoria’s Secret) because I know that it is 100% not a good situation. But I also recognize that there is not a “perfect” bra company out there that is accessible to everyone.

So in today’s conversation we are going to explain the importance of a good fitting bra, how to find one, how to care for it, and so much more. We’re also going to be discussing our relationships with our breasts and how society impacts them. Yes, we’re going to be doing a lot of boob talking today, so use your personal judgment when listening to this around little ones.

All right…let’s jump in!

NOTE: THIS WAS A 36 PAGE TRANSCRIPT SO IT IS NOT PERFECT.
Amanda
Sam, why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?
Sam
Hi, I'm Sam Conover, I own Broad Lingerie. And that's a store specializing in full busted sizes in Toronto, Canada. So basically, our motto is buying a big bra shouldn't be a big deal. So we're trying to make bra shopping easier for people who were size D and above.
Amanda
What as a child, as you're growing up, were you like, it was like you to write things for school. You said, like, when I grew up, I'm going to be the bra lady. I'm going to sell lingerie like was that? Was that something you've dreamed of doing since you were a child? Or is there another way you got into it?
Sam
No. So I did always have an interest in fashion. My lovely Nana destroyed my poor young mind by getting me a subscription to vogue at a tender young age. So I was always obsessed with fashion and thought I'll be a designer, but that never happened. But no, I worked as a bra fitter for a gazillion years, maybe 15 years. And then I went back to school, because I wanted to try something else and went to school to become a objects conservator specializing. So basically, that's the person who works in the back of the museum on a glamorous day doing like, objects repairs, so like if there's like an old vase doing, if it's broken, putting it back together and painting in missing pieces. And the left glamor stay there the person saying, Oh, the humidity is too high, and we need to change the light levels and all that kind of business. So I did that for a little bit. But I kept thinking about bras.
Amanda
Wow. I mean, I know a lot of like, 10 year old boys who have the same problem. I mean, I don't know them personally, I've heard of them. So you, I mean, to say you work with bras is a is a vast, vast understatement. But you know, something you and I touched on as we were preparing for this is this idea that bras are like frivolous? They're silly that every time we talk about bras, we should be like giggling or blushing or an example I have is like when I was growing up, my mom would be scandalized, just scandalized. If I left a bra lying around where a male might see it in the house? Oh, no. No, I don't think I mean, listen, I think bras can be sexy, but like bras are also like doing some serious work. Why do people think that bras are so scandalous and unimportant? And I don't know, Frank can't be seen by men.
Sam
I guess because like they're, they're associated with breasts and associated, although not everyone who's wearing a bra as a woman, but they're associated with women. So those are
Amanda
it's always the patriarchy. Exactly. They're even ruining bras. I know. Right? I so I was really excited when you reached out to me, because when I was thinking about the most regretful purchases, I've made the most wasteful purchases I've made meaning the things that I bought, and I wore the least, it's always bras it, bras can go awry really fast, right. I'm excited for you to tell us today. And we're going to talk about all kinds of bras stuff, but one thing we're going to hit on is finding the right size, because I think that seems to be where a lot of the trouble begins. And it seems to me based on my experience that there is much like there isn't consistent sizing for all the other clothes we put on our body. Bra sizing seems to be really problematic. It's really confusing. Why is it so confusing? Does it have to be that way? Um,
Sam
to be honest, and I'm obviously biased. I think it's actually really elegant and me, but I think it's something that takes a lot of time to understand because with a bra you're trying to express two different measurements. So with with a dress, you're saying you're this size and that size is supposed to encompass your, your bust your waist and your hips, but with a bra, you're trying to express the measurement of your ribcage size and your breast size. And those can be different. So if bras were sized like dresses, they'd be really bad. They wouldn't be able to fit as well. But because it's a more complicated way of expressing the measurement they're trying to express a ratio so the difference between your ribcage and your your bust It ends up getting a lot more complicated. And then there's just like, a lack of education on how it works. And I don't think everyone needs to know like, if this is not interesting to you, I think that there's a lot of people who, myself included, want to teach people how to do this. But if at the end of the day, you're like, No, that's too much I'm blanking out, then. Like, go and find someone who can help you.
Amanda
Right, right. Something I will say, you know, as we were talking about, like, what if bras were sized like dresses. I don't know if this is still happening. But I have a very, very specific memory of shopping at Forever 21. It was like 10 years ago. And looking at the bras. And they had underwire bras that weren't cup size. They were small, medium, large, extra large, that kind of thing. And as you were talking, I was like, What a travesty. That hurts. No, I know. But once again, I seriously I wear all the clothes that I buy, I I keep my clothes for a very long time. I really love them. I have this relationship with them. But man, I have bought so many bad bras over the years. I mean, just like ones that cut my shoulders or made my boobs a weird shape or moved around when I walked or fell off my shoulders constantly, on and on. I'm sure anybody who's listening to this who has been forced to wear a bra. Or opts to wear a bra or just has had some interaction with a bra is like yes, yes. And yes. So I'm excited for us to get to the bottom of this, like you one thing you said that really has stuck with me is that a lot of the bra companies out there is in companies who are making and selling bras aren't really great at sizing themselves.
Sam
Yeah, I Well, it's not all of them, it's more that they're not great at expressing what the size means to the public.
Amanda
Right? I like that I like that take on it.
Sam
Like there was a bra blogger that I read, because I'm a nerd. So I used to read a lot of blogs about bras and bra fitting describes like, the typical bra sizing that you see in most stores as the bra matrix, you're stuck in the bra, you got to break out of it. So most of us are used to hearing sizing from like maybe 32 to 48, a D, maybe double D and that's sort of our conception of sizes. And those sizes are real, and people who wear those sizes are real. But there's so much more beyond that. And I find most of the time when people are looking for bras there and having trouble. It's often because they're get they're there outside of the matrix sizing, which is basically why my story exists. So if someone was to look at me, I'm a busty person, they'd be like, Oh, okay, so she's got big boobs. So probably that means she's a D. And I'm usually wearing about a G or a Double G, which then most people would say those aren't real sizes, and you're making that up. And that's just incredibly large. And like you must be an impossible size. But the sizes are real. So I think the reason why it's so confusing is so many brands just say like we've got the perfect bra that fits all bodies, but they only make, you know, a small handful of sizes. But because we don't have that thing, like if you're to look at a clothing company and see that they only did small to extra large, you sort of call bullshit. But if it's if it's bra company, because we don't have that background information, you just sort of accept it and say, yep, fits all bodies. I've got a body. I'll try that bra. And then you're disappointed.
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that's a great way to summarize it, you know, See also swimwear right at the amount of messages I receive all day every day, asking for advice on bathing suits. And I'm like, Yeah, I don't know, let me know when you find it, you know, because, I mean, like, I think we've talked a lot on the show about just clothing as a whole. You know, because there's such a diverse range of bodies out there like people might have the same waist chest hip measurements as another person, but what about the length of their torso? What about the width of your shoulders, it just becomes so complicated. That it's it is really hard to find clothes that fit you perfectly no matter what size you are. Because you know designers, brands, retailers, they're just trying to fit the most amount of people well enough for them to buy it. Not even great right? Just enough for someone to say this is acceptable. I'll buy this or keep it right. But bras I just I can make a dress that's a little too big or a little too small work for me but a bra that is the wrong size. is just psychological and physical torture. It's raised true,
Sam
though. And that's why, like, I'm so adamant of like, this is this is important. Like, if you're a person who wears bras and has no problems, then have a wonderful life. I'm happy for you. So
Amanda
I'm challenged and better. But yeah,
Sam
a lot of people, that isn't the case. And it's, it is important. And again, it's something that's so dismissed as either frivolous or there's the sort of like, well, because it's small, in some cases, it's just a few strap scraps of fabric. So you know, it's, it shouldn't matter. And that's where you get some of the, again, the the cheaper bras or the bras that thought isn't put into. So yeah, some of the sizing is off, it doesn't, they're not really working to make it fit, they're just sort of making a garment that can like go on your body, but it doesn't actually perform. Right. And I think we should think of bras more the way you would think of shoes in that. There, there's something that is supposed to do a job. It can be some, it can be nice to be something that makes you feel happy or looks pretty. And that's great. But for most of us, our bras are doing a job. They're not just like sitting on our body.
Amanda
Yeah, and it's a serious job. You know, basically like, defying gravity, you know, I don't I don't take the job of abroad lightly at all. And like I said, I have firsthand experience, they just, it's like a bad day, when you're wearing the wrong size bra. It really is. You know, I mean, it can be extreme discomfort, or just your brows moving around, and the straps are falling down all day. And that's, that's the kind of thing that will drive me over the brink when I'm having a stressful day already, you know, I can feel a bad bra affecting my mental health,
Sam
I can absolutely relate to that.
Amanda
Right, right. And I like you know, some people who are listening to this are gonna be like, I don't wear a bra. That's great. I wear bra every day I have I swear I was conditioned to wear bra at a young age. And I just don't feel like my best self. If I'm not wearing a bra. I always joke I can't do advanced mathematics without that feeling of an underwire. You know, that's just like where I am. Because it's been so long, like the feeling of a bra means I'm ready to go, you know. So let's talk about bra sizing. Okay, what is a bra size, we know there's a number we know there's a letter, allegedly, there are letters beyond D.
Sam
So it's basically so it's a code. And so this code is representing the ratio between your bust size and your ribcage size. So the number represents the measurement under your breasts. And the letter represents the difference in inches between your ribcage and bust. So the larger the difference, the higher the number or sorry, the higher the letter. And because it's a ratio, it's not a static thing. So the volume of the cup is determined by the band. So basically, the band is acting as the controlling factor. This is tempting, really nerdy, but I know I love this band, the cup gets bigger, too. And vice versa. So if you're going smaller in the number or the band size, the the cap is getting smaller. So this is the confusing part. This is where a lot of people end up having trouble buying abroad. So 36 D is a bigger cup size and a bigger band cipher than a 34 D. So most people think all D cups are the same. But they're not it the the letter actually needs to be understood by the number attached to it. So that's the confusing thing and that a lot of people will say okay, so I'm wearing a 36 D, and the band feels tight, but the cups are fine. So I'm going to buy a 38 D, and then they put the 38 D on there like now the cups are too big. And that's because the size that they actually need is at 38. See.
Amanda
I mean, it's hard tell you when you told me this a few weeks ago, it was life changing. And I have thought of it multiple times because I was in a situation where I needed a bra. There were so that in my size and I was like oh no big deal. I'll just get the next band size up. And then I heard your voice in my head saying no, it's not that simple. Which was great because I would have totally popped the wrong one and it would have been sliding all over the place all day and I would have been really upset. And so it saved me from like, accidentally buying a bra that's the wrong size. It's, it's very easy to buy the wrong bra. Yeah,
Sam
it's, well, it's hard because it also depends like you've got this, you've got a lot of things going on. So one, the fact that like the sizing is not as intuitive as we're used to where it's just like this size means this. But with bras, it's, you're you're trying to figure out what the number means and what the cap means. That fluctuates. So the number always means the same thing. But the letter doesn't always mean the same thing. So it's a little more complicated. And also, then to make it even more complicated is that different. Different countries use different sizing systems. So I'll often get people who I will fit them in a bra. And I'll say, okay, generally your size in most bras is a 36 h, and then they go to a store and buy a 36 H, but they don't realize that they bought a 36 H and American sizing, which is several sizes smaller. They say,
Amanda
Wow, this is nice. I'm not ready to tackle international bra shopping. I'm glad I have not had to deal with that. But I suppose if my luggage got lost, once again, I'm going to be hearing your voice in my mind to remind me and it's it's not that simple.
Sam
International. So it's more of a problem when when you're in the full bust zone, because that's where everything gets more complicated. So most sides, like most broad companies do A, B, C, D, and that's fine, no matter what country you're in. But once you go beyond the Double D they get confusing. So American sizing, likes to like just keep adding DS onto things. So they did do a double D, Triple D, quadruple D. And then UK sizing starts doing double D, F, double f g for some of the some of the letters doubles, some of them don't, I don't know, because they feel like it. But if you wear a size above, above a double D and go to like, say additional, they'll use American sizing but if you go to like a bra boutique, most likely they're carrying bras with UK sizing and yeah, it just gets confusing.
Amanda
Oh, good lord. Yeah, it's super confusing. And, you know, I have a question for you. I didn't ask you this, when you're prepared. We were preparing but you've just reminded me of it. Okay, so we've got triple A double A, and A and triple A is the smallest, double A's a little bit bigger. And then a is bigger than that, right? On the other end of the spectrum, we have d double D, Triple D, they go in the opposite direction. But we don't have like triple B, Triple C. Why? Why is Do you know why this is? Why is I am
Sam
not? Don't quote me on this. But what I think is because initially bra sizing started as a, b, c, d. And then they saw the need to say oh no, we have people smaller than a so let's add a double A or triple A. And then on the other side, they're like, oh, no, we have people bigger than D. And for some reason, they again started doubling and tripling in the other direction. But I think it's
Amanda
before they finally moved to e i guess is there there's an E right? That's
Sam
the thing e in UK sizing,
Amanda
but not in the US. So they
Sam
say Triple D which is the same size as a UK E. But if you're confusing in French sizing, an E is actually a double D
Amanda
Yeah, I mean, like, once again, we're just like not set up for success here. In fact, it's way more complicated and confusing than buying any other garment you put on your body. And that can be hard enough, right? Because everybody's so inconsistent. It's something you and I talked about. I think about the slot when I think about sizing is that size is so emotional for all of us in clothing, but I feel like in bras it is specifically and your emotional feelings towards different sizes are all individual. For me as a buster your person I remember being measured and being told I was a double D. That turned out not to be true. That person was bad sizing but I remember, like crying being like my boobs aren't that big. How dare you, you know, as if that meant something important about me as a person. Um, but I know that there is there are a lot of people who are straight up like, I don't care what size you think my bra is. I'm not going beyond a D and they're jamming. And they're jamming. I mean two Ds every day, right? They're like, all get a 48. D to avoid having to get a bigger size. Like they're just wearing the bra. It's not a good situation, right? But I conversely, you know, I haven't had this thought process since I was about 14. But other people are like, No, I am not an A, I am a B, you know, or I am definitely a C, I'm not an A, like that kind of thing. So, when it comes to like, breasts and bras, it's like, our emotional, our emotional response to sizing and our, like, our just own individual feelings about sizing, I think are even more complicated
Sam
it is and like, there's so many weird stereotypes about like, either, and, like, if you're in that like happy middle, then everything is fine. But if you're too small, quote, unquote, or too big, quote, unquote, then there's, you know, you're doing something wrong. And I think it can be really hard for for a lot of people like I was someone who, when I first get started getting bras in the right size, it was it was a revelation, but it was also shocking, because like I was suddenly I had gone from buying D which was already stressful enough, in the emotional sense to suddenly buying f at that time in my life. And, and that, like I remember telling a friend that I got a bra fitting and like I got a bra fitting. And so turns out, like I should be wearing a 32 F. And she looked at me, she's like, Oh, that's made up. And like laughed at me.
Amanda
I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm sorry. I don't mean to laugh.
Sam
So I think it's really emotional. And it's really like, I think especially my, my sort of expertise, obviously is on the full, full bust end of the spectrum. But because these sizes are, are not commonly found, there's this added thing where it's like, like I hate saying that I'm a specialty store, because there's this weird sort of emotional feeling about a specialty store where it's like, my boobs are so big that I can't shop in a regular store. And I hate that, like, I wish that I'm glad I exist. I'm glad people could shop at my store. But I wish that people could just go and buy a bra at a regular store and it wasn't a big deal. Whereas like it's in some places. So in the UK, a lot of the like regular stores quote unquote, like not a I'm a specialty bra boutique stores will carry these sizes, not all of them, but more. So they'll have maybe sizing up to a G. But I think in North America, it's so like confusing and demoralizing when you go to a store and you're like oh, so I don't even exist here. I guess my size isn't real.
Amanda
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, imagine telling someone their size isn't real. That's rough.
Amanda
I guess like one of the arguments I'm here to make today is that even though it's very challenging, it's really important to do the best job you can to get over your ideas about sizing when it comes to bras, I mean, everything in general, but the right fitting bra can make just such a difference in your life. Exactly. Right, right. So like, why don't you? Why don't you tell us why we should care about wearing the right size?
Sam
Well, one, your body will likely feel better. So it can be as simple as not being uncomfortable all day. Depending depending on your size, and I'm, I don't like to say like, all your problems will be solved, because that's not the case. So some people are really sensitive. Some people have like mobility issues, or some people like the shape of their body, whatever. Sometimes a bra won't feel like a fluffy dream cloud, but at least can get somewhere closer to that. Rather than it feeling like torture. So Right. Hopefully, it feels more comfortable. Hopefully your body actually feels better. So for for me getting into the right size meant I had definitely like a decrease in back and shoulder pain.
Amanda
Oh, yeah. And then
Sam
close will look better. So I find most people, I'll get them into the right bra. And then I say like, let's try this on under your shirt. And they'll say, Oh, my shirt looks better, like things are just sort of lining up in a way because because clothes tend to be designed often with the thought that someone is wearing a bra. So there's there's nothing wrong with like breasts sitting lower, or like a more relaxed shape. And if that's your jam, that's totally fine. But most clothes are expecting your breasts to be lifted into a higher position.
Amanda
Totally true. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it all the years I've gone to fittings, you know, one of the things you do as a buyer, you actually go to the fittings for the in house design product that you're buying. And sometimes the model would show up at the wrong kind of bra for what we were doing. And we like going, go put the other bra on, you know, or like, let's change up the bra here. Let's try something unlined. Like the bra is a really important part of the jacket.
Sam
And it can actually make things fit better to where it might just like it will feel tight or loose in the wrong places. And then you have the right bra on and it makes sense all of a sudden,
Amanda
yeah, it's true. I mean, and I have I have bras that I feel like do they do different things? Like to me specifically, I feel like they put they push my boobs into different shapes, right? And certain dresses look better with certain boob shapes that I can mold them into? I don't know, it's like, you know,
Sam
I have some pointy bras. Like, I actually personally love a pointy bro. I know that that's controversial. Most people don't like that. But I wear a lot of 40s and 50s vintage and it's nice to have that like lifted pointy shape. It's that's what totally designed for. And then I have other ones that have a more sort of modern, round shape. And it just depends on my mood and my outfit. And you know,
Amanda
absolutely. I mean, we would be like on our models. At Nasty Gal, for example, sometimes we'd be like, go put the push up bra on. Like we want the boobs at maximum Highness for this top, you know, and it does, it does make a difference in how things fit. So I think I mean, this is just me personally, my advice is that you kind of want a variety of bras. If you're a bra person because different bras
Sam
Exactly. And there's no bra that can do everything. Like I feel like a lot of people want all of the things at once. But generally you're going to need different bras to do it's like shoes so like you don't expect to be able to have shoes that you can run in and also wear with like a fancy dress and feel Oh, I don't know, maybe like you were running shoes with a fancy dress, but it's going to be running shoes with a fancy dress like it's I find having the different bras like, works with different aspects in your life, like you're not going to have a push up bra that you can run and jump in and feel comfortably supported. You're gonna need a true
Amanda
true seeking of shoes, you need to have more than one kind of shoe very, very obvious one there. I actually learned that lesson the hard way. This was years ago, when I was living in LA I was I went directly from work to barre class and you don't wear shoes in barre class, I took off my clogs, put them in the locker with my clothes when it worked out and my special socks. And then I was like, you know, laughed and I was like, I'm gonna wear I'll just wear my clogs with my workout clothes to go home, whatever. I'm walking and I'm like, you know, it'd be fun to just like try to sprint to the end of this block. I don't know what I was thinking. I hate running if running is my least favorite thing of all things. But I was like, Maybe I'm gonna be a runner. Now. I think it was just high on all those exercise endorphins. I ran my heat clog got caught in a crack in the sidewalk. And I sprained my ankle so badly that I was like, hobbling around for like the next three months. So basically, what I'm saying there is but like, the shoes have different purposes. And you should adhere to that as much as possible. And bras are similar except you maybe get a sprained ankle out of it, but maybe you could. I don't know. Yeah, who knows if you're really uncomfortable or wearing the wrong bra, maybe you're driving a car and your, your your ill fitting, strapless bra is falling down. You're trying to straighten it and suddenly you like get into a fender bender, I don't know, everywhere. Teachers everywhere, whether it's shoes or bras, so something that you and I talked about, and I think we may have told you the story. Maybe we didn't. But I remember specifically, when I was about 23, I was working at Barnes and Noble, proudly serving Starbucks coffee in the cafe. And I was friends with all the people who worked on the store side and they'd be like, come over and talk to me and one guy. I mean, I think he meant to be funny, but it really like hurt me. He was like, someone with your boobs. Boobs, your size could never be smart. And I was like, Wow, thanks for like, really? First off like that comment. Oh, well, I mean, like, that's some gross, gross stuff, I should look him up and be mean to him. But anyway. You know, there is this, there is a lot of stigma attached to being busty, despite the fact that people literally get surgery to get more busty. It's so complicated. And I was thinking like, probably a lot of your customers really feel that.
Sam
It's, it's a like, there's this weird sort of dichotomy, like, like, the two sides of being like the two bad stereotypes of being bestie, where it's either like, the sort of bimbo like super sexualized version of being bestie. And then there's the like, desex like, you're, you're a grandma wearing a moo, moo sort of thing. And there's nothing wrong with being super sexy, or being a grandma. I love a moo, moo.
Amanda
But me too, wearing one right now, like your
Sam
emotions around it, especially I think. Especially like when you're young. So at all time, but I think I think I do get some some teens, in for fittings where it's like, okay, they're, they realize, their mom has realized, like, they're, you know, not going to be able to get what they need at Victoria's Secret. And it it's really overwhelming, where you're, you know, you just want to be a person. And suddenly you're like, put in one of these camps, and you're like, No, I don't want to be like a sexy sex bot. And I don't want to be Grandma, I just like want to be me. And I found myself personally like, fighting that sometimes. Like I tend to I really like sort of vintagey style and like, fitted things and an hourglass thing because that's sort of what my figure tends to look best quote unquote, in, but I've been sort of exploring where I'm like, maybe I can actually wear like, more loose fitting or like a little bit androgynous sort of clothing. And I just because I'm bestie doesn't mean I'm not allowed to do those things, but I feel like there's this sort of like, I think it's the like leftover, what not to wear conditioning. like,
Amanda
Ah, don't get me started. Don't get me started. So what to say A dream guest will be Stacy London on this podcast so I can ask her. I have so many I know I probably have to like crowdsource questions because I feel like we all have a lot of a lot of questions. Um, but ya know, I think that's so interesting even what you're talking about with like the androgynous style, that is definitely something that I There were times in my life where I was like, I'm not allowed yes this way. You know, and that's so messed up.
Sam
It's also like weirdly, like, removed from coolness, if this makes sense and like, is this just my neuroses talking but where I feel like when when they do sort of like fashion editorials or like just like photographs of cool people you're you're not allowed to like it's always this sort of like waifish situation and don't get me started it's just and again, this might be like my hangover of like, growing up during like her when she were number on my brain. But yeah, it's being busted. It's just wrapped up in so many so many emotions.
Amanda
It is it is. So I have to ask you a question. Have you ever watched rock of love? If not, okay, so it's a VH one reality series from like, 2007. I want to say they did three seasons. It's all these women competing. It's like a bachelor kind of model where they're competing to be the girlfriend of Bret Michaels. Okay. So we've been rewatching you race recently? I have no idea how destined I fell into this. But it is available. I want to say we were watching it on Hulu or something like that Netflix. I'm not really sure. So we've been watching it. I'd seen it when it was out originally like peripherally here and there. And it's, it's a show where boobs are very important. And everybody has big boobs whether they are implants or not, or natural, but it's like the most boob positive show I've ever watched. Even though the rest of it is like it does not there. It's very offensive. There are a lot of the way women talk to one another on their men talk to women on there is pretty messed up and very of that time. It is the most boob positivity I've seen in a really long time.
Sam
I am going to give it a watch because that right up my alley
Amanda
I was like Dustin, do we need to start a podcast that just dissects the three seasons of rock of love. Because it's really, really fascinating. And like, because it feels like such a time capsule of a time when? I mean, it was hard to be a woman in the entire last century for sure. But in the first 10 years of this century, being a young woman was particularly heinous. Yeah, it was weird, right? And it was weird. And this show reflects that. I mean, we look back finally people were looking back and saying, Hey, we treated Britney Spears really poorly. We treated Lindsay Lohan really poorly. We treated Paris Hilton really poorly. Like, they're starting to be reckoning of that, although I still catch people acting that way towards others and celebrities and influencers stuff on social media all the time. But like, I feel like more and more people are like, you can't call a woman a slut, okay, like you just can't, you know, like that kind of stuff. But like in this show, they have no problem calling each other that like being called that. Like, it's really it's a time capsule of a really bad time that I never want to come back. But the boob positivity is incredible.
Sam
But it's weird because boobs like it goes in and out of fashion where like, sometimes it's so which is so weird. You'll like read an editorial where it's like boobs are back or like they were always here.
Amanda
Oh my god. Oh, this thing that's been on my body my whole life. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's just like, you know, like the Kardashian shape has been in for quite a while. People have been getting that surgery. It's called like a BBL. I believe I know too much about this. And I only know a tiny bit. And now I was reading somewhere like a week or two ago that was like Oh, bbls over and I was like, Whoa, all those people who got butt implants, which sounds like a very serious surgery to me. Now what are they gonna do with their big butts? And, and it all comes together. There is someone from season three of rock of love who has had really extreme BBL surgery. I see I looked her up on Instagram and like it's, I'm like why? out like she had parts added all over the place. It's so messed up. I feel like we never say like, oh, men like this are in trend right now, men's bodies like that are out of style. But with women, it's like boobs are in now they're out big butts are here. Now they're out. Everyone should be skinny. You know, like, oh, it's easy. It's a patriarchy, guys, you know, what's messed up, messed up, for sure. And I feel like breasts and bras and everything associated with femininity are just, it just can't.
Sam
I made it, you know, once you sort of wandering around the store, I just said to myself, there's so many ways to be a woman, and all of them are wrong. It's just like, doing it feels like you're doing it wrong.
Amanda
It's true. It's true. I have felt that I mean, I still feel that as a grown woman, you know, I remember going back to when I was working for Nasty Gal specifically being in a fitting and we were fitting a booths, da which to be honest, we had no business doing this because no one knew what they were doing. But the FinTech, who I'm sure is very skilled, who's saying, you know, hey, you know, we're having some weird stuff with like the peak on the cup. And as the sizes up, it's not hitting in the right place. And the head of design was there. And she said, Well, that's okay, because we don't want to make tops that will fit anything over a size see from now on, because it's just not aesthetically pleasing. And I was like, sitting there with my D booth, feeling like I should skulk out. And also, I afterwards went to a friend of mine who worked there, and I said, you, you're not gonna believe what I just heard. But apparently, we're not going above say C because it's not aesthetically pleasing, according to the CEO. And we were like, we had done some not we specifically, but the company had done some sort of research, like, a year ago, that had basically said, a big portion of their customers specifically had breast implants. And I was like, No one goes to the doctor and says, Put some C's on there. It's always DS. What are we doing?
Sam
These are actually jeans. Just just to be
Amanda
Wow, no, I believe it. I believe it. Yeah, yeah. So there you go. Like once, it's just such foolishness and, and just people or constructs around every corner that will make you feel bad about these, just two things that are on your chest with you every day, no big deal. So you as a bra feed fitter, you're probably changing some lives, you're pie town, people, some numbers or letters they don't want to hear. But what what do you love about it,
Sam
I love so many things. I love I love the like one, what it's done for myself. So to be selfish here. And that like being able to see so many different bodies is and like, usually half naked bodies is really kind of remarkable in that it it. It allows you to like, rethink your own body. Because when I'm working with someone, like yes, I'm judging the fit of the bra, but I am not judging their body. And so I'm coming just sort of at this neutral space where it doesn't have to be like a, it's great if it's a celebration, body positivity, but it's just this sort of neutrality. And being like, this is just this is a type of body that this person has, this is a different type of body. And it made me have a kinder, I had my own self where I'm like, okay, so when you're looking at all of these people, you're not judging them as monsters or like wrong. You're just saying, these are different types of bodies, and they're all great. And why can't I do that for myself? So I, I feel like I, I still have, you know, we live in the world, and there's days of bad self esteem. But generally, I feel pretty awesome about my body. And I think I'm a babe and I look great. And it's nice. It's nice to feel like and I really think that it's I really think it's bra fitting like a lot of the people. When I was working as a bra fitter in the past, who I worked with, like, it just kind of gets into your head, you're like, oh, yeah, like I've just got a body and like, that's okay. I look good. It's not a big deal.
Amanda
I think a lot of us need that. Because, I mean, it's something I think about all the time, like, someday I'm going to be very old and I'm going to be nostalgic for the way it felt to be young and when my body was young and more capable. And I don't want to think to myself, and I spent all that time hating my body Right. Yeah.
Sam
And not Yeah, it's really lovely, like trying to get that same feeling from the customers who come into the store. So, at the end of the day, if someone just leaves and they get abroad, that's fine. It doesn't have to be like a transformative experience. So
Amanda
I because it's so great. And it's an important, it's kind of bra, right?
Sam
Especially someone who's shopped here like multiple times where they might start out like a little bit more reserved, or they might just sort of like, be more nitpicky about like, Oh, this is cutting into my bag fatter. And then a little while later, they'll come back and they're like, hey, like, I want to, I want to try on that like sexy black bra. And they'll like come out of the fitting room and say, Look at this, it looks great. And it's so nice to see that that change where it's like, oh, no, I look great. I feel great. Me. And that's what I want for everyone.
Amanda
I love that. Yeah, it's a magical feeling you know.
Amanda
So we're going to talk now about how to find the right bra off. Right for You. This is like really important, right? First off, I just wanted to start with like, the controversy, the age old controversy of to wear a bra or not to wear a bra. My stance on it is like just do what you want, right? What do you have any arguments for or against wearing a bra?
Sam
Again, in the do what you want, cap? Whatever feels good, whatever feels good, right? So in the like, bras were created, not as some sort of oppressive force. They can't they can be tied up rights in oppressive forces. But it's because for a lot of people with breasts, having the weight lifted, and supported, is more comfortable. One just for your shoulders and back. But also like, dress can get hot and sweaty. So I'll have people who will come in. And they have either not been wearing a bra or wearing a bra that doesn't fit. And they'll say, I've got this weird rash under my boots. Yeah, it's because you've got this like skin. Oh,
Amanda
that sounds terrible. Yeah,
Sam
it's bad or best without a bra, then do that. But if if wearing a bra is making 10 possibly make you feel more comfortable than then I think it's go ahead and wear a bra.
Amanda
Totally, you know, I will say I just moved to Texas A few months ago, and it's very humid here already. I mean, it's like, April 13, when we're recording this and it was like 91 degrees today and swampy. And I'm going to tell you, my bra is feeling a little less comfortable. And I was wondering, like, Do you have any advice there? Like should I should I be like powdering up or something?
Sam
Powder can work. There's these like, I think they're called Wiccans. They're, they're little like, in your bra. I haven't tried them myself. But I've heard people talking about them that just like absorb sweat, and then materials. So a moisture wicking, breathable material is always good. And then also fit. So often, I'll have people who have, again, the issues with like sweat and discomfort and it's maybe because the bra isn't sitting quite right on their bodies. So it's, it's either random chafing, or the wires are sitting too low. So your breasts are sort of pressed together or sitting on on your ribcage in a way that can be a little more sweaty in the heat. So starting to go back to bra fitting, but it might be bra fitting.
Amanda
Yeah, no, I could see it. I think for me, it's just like I am sweating. Yeah.
Sam
And then that also, it's just sometimes when it's hot and sweaty, it's just hot and sweaty and gross.
Amanda
But yeah, Like real talk, if I had for me personally to choose between wearing a bra and feeling sweaty and gross or not wearing a bra, and also still being sweating a gross, I'm gonna pick wearing a bra for me personally, it's just going to be more comfortable for me. Okay, so let's talk about fitting. Yes. If someone, I mean, the ideal situation is they come to someone like you who's an expert, and they get measured, but let's say they don't have that luxury or they don't feel comfortable having someone else do that. Because it's, it's a very special intimate situation.
Sam
Agreed. And I tried to make it as sort of comfortable as it can. Sorry, I want to go off on a tangent.
Amanda
Said, Okay, go on it. Tell me tell me the tangent. I want to talk about bra fitting,
Sam
because I think it's something that is also really important. So in terms of the skill as the working with people skill of bra fitting
Amanda
in that, Oh, my God, I bet I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah,
Sam
it's really, it's really emotional. And it's really vulnerable. And I feel like when people are learning to be come a bra fitter, there should be more training on consent. So asking if you can touch people asking if you can open a door like I have had, I've heard so many horror stories of people just like barging into a room or reaching into a bra and adjusting a breasts like, that should not be happening.
Amanda
Yeah, I've heard similar stories, actually. Yeah. And that is like for me that I'm sorry. That's like, really uncomfortable.
Sam
It's really uncomfortable. And so you need to you need to ask, you need to explain what's going on. So I will say, can I feel the band of the bra and adjust the straps? So people know what is going to happen? Rather than can I adjust the bra? Because no one knows exactly what that's going to entail. I had someone say once in a bra fitting, when I went for a bra fitting, can I adjust the bra? And then they reached into my bra, and moved my breast. And that was a shock. Oh, wow. So they are Yeah, but they didn't actually explain what was going to happen. And some people would be okay with that. Some people would say, I don't care, like, you can rearrange my breasts. But I think people should know what they're opting into. The other thing is like, unfortunately, like there's a lot of being a weird jerk. Like I get a lot of people coming in with horror stories where they went to get a bra fitting, and they were, like, made fun of or talked down to for being a certain size or said like, Oh, you just need to lose weight or just just being a real jerk. Classic.
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, all of these classic. And then
Sam
finally, I want to read is that not everyone who is wearing a bra is a straight woman. So there's a lot of the like, this is for the ladies for the girls, ladies, girls and like for your boyfriend? Maybe? Maybe not a woman, maybe you're not like dating a man. Like maybe you don't have a partner at all. And there's all of this weird, like, this Brawl is gonna make you look 10 pounds slimmer, 10 years younger, and your husband's gonna love you.
Amanda
Well, and I think that's, that brings up a whole tangent right there, which is like this assumption. And it goes back to I think how we regard bras as a whole. That the bra, you don't wear it for yourself. It's for someone else, whether it's to not uphall others with the movement of your breasts, or to titillate someone, no pun intended down the road, right? It's, I mean, I think it all starts with saying like, Hey, you were brought for you.
Sam
Yeah, exactly. No, it should be. And and that comes to something as simple as like talking about the like, How many brothers should you have? Like, I will have people who say, Well, I guess I need to get a beige bra, because you should have a beige bra. And then I'll ask like, do you do wear clothes that would make a beige bra useful? Like do you do wear a lot of white or pastel colors? No, I wear nothing but black
Amanda
and white. I'd be listen, I just recently bought my first ever beige bra. I held off for a very long time as a person who primarily wearing dark colors. doesn't really care if anyone sees my black bra underneath. But finally I was like, Oh, I finally have a purpose in my life for a beige bra. It took me a really long time decades of bra wearing to get there.
Sam
It's it's like unfortunately, beige bras are rarely I Find Them aesthetically pleasing because I'm, I'm too far gone in bra world. So I've gone around like the other side where like, at first I was like, oh, Black and Color like suddenly a whole world of lingerie is open to me and now I'm back to Beijing. I'm like, beige is kind of subversive like I like this. It's I'm like a weird man. And I find this this cool, but not very beautiful. Also, side salad. The Beige bra is another issue in the luxury world is that for so long, it was only beige broads. And that was called nude. And if you were not,
Amanda
I know I know. Many people are not actually beige colored. It's not a very, it's a color that only matches a small cross section of people. When I was a teenager, my mom told me and I to this day, don't know if this was intentional to sabotage me or something she heartfelt Lee believed. But she told me yes, beige bras. She probably said nude now I think my mom would never say nude. She would say beige. She was like beige brows drive men, wild. Men think that beige bras are the sexiest of all bras. And I remember thinking like, Wow, that's so weird because I grew up being obsessed with Madonna. And I was like, it's weird that Madonna never wears a beige bra for anything. Like and it was so sexy. wouldn't wouldn't she be like, on like, you know, the MTV Video Music Awards in a beige bra. It may be it may be questioned. The veracity is my mom's
Sam
bulky ski jackets.
Amanda
Yeah, exactly. Oh, sweatpants with a mustard stain their favorite. And I mean, of course, my mom coming from this classic perspective that if we're going to pick a branch be one that drives me wild whether they do in fact or not. There's an erroneous thinking there anyway, but I remember Finally, my first male partner, you know, I'm like, in my 20s. I was like, hey, so like, what do you think about beige bra? And he was like, what? Why? What kind of question is that? I'm like, do you think they're really sexy? And he was like, No, that's gross. It's like the color red Ace bandage.
Sam
I know. I love to, like imagining your mom like coming up with this plan.
Amanda
Yeah, yeah. And I like to this day, I'm like, reconciling it where I'm like, Are there men out there? I mean, who cares? Like, well, they're probably I asked my, there's never I mean, there's there's something so
Sam
just waiting.
Amanda
Yeah, there's that person out there who's like, Oh, I love a sports bra. That's super pilih it smells bad. Yeah. You know, like, there's some I mean, we've all everybody's got a thing, right. But anyway, the page brah for me, I cuz I guess I don't care about driving men wild was just one of those things that I would hear from people too all the time, you have to have a beige Bri blah, blah. Unfortunately, I was always too broke to have any bra that was not immediately going to have boobs in it because like bras, I can only buy bras that would 100% be worn. But this was like a thing that would come up like the you know, some of the older women in my life. Like my grandma, my mom, my stepmother, who would be like, you know, if you were wearing a beige bra with this, it would look a lot better. As you can see my black bra through my pink dress or whatever. I think I came of age in an era thanks to you know, all of the revolutionary work by Madonna. Were showing your bra was a good thing. Yeah. Right. It
Sam
was it was. It was cool.
Amanda
Yeah. I remember there was this woman in my neighborhood. Who always this was when I was like, maybe 2122, who would always wear a red bra with a white cheer tank top. And I would always like be like, That is my hope is that someday I can be as sexy as her. You know,
Sam
sitting on your like, dream board.
Amanda
Yeah, exactly. No beige bras there, let me tell you, um, but I do. Like, I do think that we have all these like, I mean, we have all kinds of dumb rules about everything and bras and your exception where it's like, Oh, you got to have a white bra and a beige bra and maybe a black bra. And everything needs to match your underwear and blah, blah, blah. You gotta have strapless bra for that. And those convertible bras that I've never been able to get to work properly for me. I mean, it's just like all of the stuff that we're being sold. Yeah. You know, it's
Sam
an Yeah, we are we are being sold.
Amanda
Right. So, how many bras Do you think a person needs an average person,
Sam
average person? Three or four? is a good sort of baseline. So
Amanda
that and and do they wash them every time they wear them? No, but washing
Sam
regularly. So that will actually mean your bra lasts longer and feels better. So if you can wash, like I usually say, like, every one to three wears, so it depends on the day. So if it's like the sweatiest day in August, then maybe wash your bra.
Amanda
Yeah, definitely I agree. Sometimes you just need a fresh, but sometimes
Sam
you can wear like a few times in a row. And it's not going to be a big deal. If you can wait in between wearing so sort of wear one bra, wear another bra, and then come back to the first one. So it has a chance to sort of like air out and relax and sort of return to It's not relaxed, but then go back to its form. Otherwise, it will sort of stretch out a little faster. But it's our sweat bodies that start to like break down materials. So I will find some people kind of think of like really fancy jeans where you're not supposed to wash them at all. But if you do that with a bra, it's just going to fall apart. And it's also just going to be gross, because it's like, had a sweater part of your body. So yeah, like, again, don't overwash but like washing regularly. And if you can handwash, which I know is so annoying. It's best. It's really like this is not to like plug a product, but there's a great product called soak. And it's a hand washing, okay. And I really like it when because it's from Toronto. And it's a small business and like oh, but it you don't need to scrub or rinse. So you just let it soak for 1520 minutes. And then you press out the water and then you hang to dry. And for some reason, skipping that step of like rinsing and scrubbing is all I need for this to be a feasible like step in my life to actually hand wash. But also we live in the real world. And, you know, if you're juggling a lot of things, and you know, you can't hand wash, if you could at least put it in a garment bag, so it doesn't get like tangled up in your Jeep. Totally Yeah.
Amanda
Yeah, or like, man, I've had some situations involving straps being this is before I switched to hand washing, I learned this lesson the hard way where you take everything out of the washer, and the strap is wrapped around a pair of pants like 37 times. And it's never the same. It's never the same you even
Sam
so I had a I remember when someone came in because their wire came out in the wash because basically what happens I'm gonna get nerdy. So with the wire at the end, it has like a little like plastic melted cap to like blunt the, the rough metal edge. And in the washing machine, because it's knocking against the side of the metal washing machine, it starts to chip away that coating, and then you have like sharp metal, which can then poke through. And the bad news is if it pokes you, but even the worst news is if it gets into your washing machine and then breaks your washing machine, which is
Amanda
really I hadn't even thought of that. And
Sam
it doesn't happen all the time. Every once in forever. After I'm like, yeah. That could happen to at least put it in Ozeri bag. So if the wire gets out, it's not going to cost you like, yeah, dollar sharable.
Amanda
I started using a bag a long time ago because, you know, we had a situation in our apartment where the washing machine was broken. The guy came to fix it, he pulled out like 10 pairs of my underwear out of like the hose I was wearing this is before I was into like a big full coverage high waisted situation. So these were very small underwear. And I don't know how I wrote it by Camos. That's a whole other question. But that was so embarrassing because the guy was such a creep, that I was like this will never happen again. I will bag these underwear up, you know important life lessons. It does extend the life of them and I you know, something? Another question that I get a lot is like where can I get sustainable bras which bras are the least or the most sustainable at least and my advice every time which I'm guessing you're gonna agree with is a bra that fits you that you take care of that you're going to wear for a long time.
Sam
It's like most bras by like nature, what they're trying to do are using synthetics and it's it's Not just because they're cheaper, it's because they do things that people want in a bra. So you can have stretch, you can have like, a material that you can heat molded into like a seamless cup. So all of those things that we want from bras nowadays, are possible because of synthetics. So if you're going to buy that synthetic bra, even if it's like their start, I'm starting to see some like recycled synthetics. But at least if you can get something that you can take care of, and wear and have for a long time. And then if you change size, this is something I was just thinking about before this interview is like, having resources for people to like switch bras. Because like, I've had some Facebook groups, and like there's like Poshmark for selling bras, but like, a lot of the time, sometimes your size changes, and you're like, Oh, well, I fluctuate, maybe I'll go back, but sometimes you're like, this is never gonna happen again, like these I have, I have a bag of bras for my 20s that I was keeping for sentimental reasons, because I am weird. And I'm like, Oh, I remember this phrase. 10 and 2010. I wasn't even like 20 said anyway. But like, I wish I could like match them up to people where I'm like, these are still good bras. They don't fit me. Someone else can take them. So I hope someone one day makes like a bra swap app. Or you can like,
Amanda
seriously, I love that idea because it's true. But your process changes
Sam
the fact that and like sometimes we'll go back. So I have bras in like different sizes where I'm like, I know sometimes I sort of fluctuate in my weight. And I can fluctuate throughout the month. So sometimes having one where it's like, okay, I go up a cup size, let's just keep this around. But yeah, sometimes your body just changes totally. That's it.
Amanda
Totally, totally. So what are some signs that you're wearing a bra? That's not the right size?
Sam
Many sites? So double boob
Amanda
is dive guys. I've experienced the double boob, it's no, it's no good.
Sam
I'm spilling out of the cups. Usually that's because the cups are too small, which sounds obvious. But I find a lot of people will say oh, it's because the cup is like too low cut or because it's a bad brought no, it's usually the cups are too small, or maybe the wrong shape for you. Wires digging into your body at the side. So if you feel like your wires poking the side of your breasts, it's again either too small or the wrong shape for you. If
Amanda
that's a good collar, too, sometimes it is
Sam
a shame that that's again, like the complicated thing. So if you want to go into a rabbit hole of bras and bodies, and you don't have to live there, if it's too much for you, you can say I will turn away. But there's a Reddit called a bra that fits and they have a processing calculator, but then there's just a whole bunch of nerds there. And I say that with love, who talks about like bras and body shapes so you can get really granular so I will talk about like different breast shapes. So a more projected breast shape where more of your volume is going forward or more shallow breast shape where it's spread over a wider part of your body which it's helpful for me as a bra fitters, you know this because if I put someone in the right size, but the wrong shape, it will still feel like garbage and not fit well. So you have to sort of match it up. Same thing with bodies. So I have like a really short distance between my shoulder and like my, the top of my bust. And so that means a lot of wires are just too tall and will poke me in the armpit even if they're the right size. So it's finding like the bra that's the right size but also made to match my body shape as best as it can.
Amanda
Wow, that is that's this stuff is complex. It's complicated.
Sam
So I you asked me before how should a bra fit and I did not give you an answer. So I will tell you that. So this is the sort of ideal. So I'm going to start with the wires if you're wearing a wire bra so the wires should be sitting flat against your breastbone between your breasts. So if they are floating away and you know sort of either making it like a little unicorn horn in your shirt or like enough space that you could put and have several pens in there. Then it's probably too small in the cup. So having wires flat to your your chest, basically sort of braces the bra to your your body and allows Some more lift and support. So if they're floating away, the bra sort of turns into a hammock. And you'll get more swing, if you can kind of imagine that. So I want to make sure it's fully encompassing all of the breast tissue at the side. So again, that wire should be sitting at the side on ribcage, not on breast tissue. So I'll have people who will say this bras so uncomfortable, I hate it. And then I look at the bra and the bra. The wire is like sitting on their boob, which is, it's not gonna be comfortable. And obviously, you hate it. Yeah. So fully outside of your breast tissue and then sitting flat, and sort of as much in the crease as possible against your ribcage. So again, I'll see these sort of, especially in fuller sizes, floating bras, where the bra is just sort of sitting on top, the caps are sitting on top of the breasts, but the wires are also sitting on top of the breasts. Ah,
Amanda
that sounds so
Sam
uncomfortable. And it's also not like able to do the job of a bra. Yeah, yeah, the band should be snug enough to hold the bra in place. So basically, if you're sitting and looking like looking at yourself in the mirror, and you turn to the side, the bra should be sitting straight across your body. So if it's like arcing up in a rainbow rainbow on your back, or like going up on an angle, that's usually a sign that it's too big. And the reason you want it snug enough to stay in place is otherwise all of the weight goes on your straps and on your shoulders. And having the band snug sort of anchors everything. And then finally in the cups, you don't want to be spilling out, like if you're spilling out, or if there's extra room, then the cups are probably not the right size for you. But at the end of the day, all of this is flexible. So when you're looking for a bra, you're balancing all of these technical points of like, okay, so I want the wires like sitting flat to my ribcage and like outside of my breast tissue, and then the band is snug and the cups aren't overflowing or with space. But this bra still feels like garbage, then that bra is not the right bra. So if you are buying a bra that is not technically the right size, or technically the right fit, but feels good, then that is the right size for you. Because what matters is what it actually feels like on your body and how it makes you feel. So I don't think anyone should be in horrible pain. But sometimes we buy things that don't feel perfect, but make us feel good. And we're willing to sacrifice when we say You know what? This isn't the most comfortable bra. But it's not uncomfortable. But I like it because it makes me feel good about myself because it's pretty because it's whatever. And the bra fitter tried to get me to try on this other one, but it makes me feel sad, and I hate it.
Amanda
Yeah, no, I think that is an amazing call out. You know, you told me when we were talking the last time like some people want a band that's too tight. That's what feels right for them. And I was like, You know what, that's really interesting, because I think, ultimately, no matter what the most important person in this broad picking out occasion, equation, I guess is you the person who's going to wear this bra. So do what feels right for you, not what someone else tells you. You should feel Zach wearing
Sam
and that's like a tip hot tip. If your bra shopping and you decide you want to go somewhere where there's a bra fitter. They should be listening to what you say and what you want. And like they're there because they have all of that product knowledge. They have that like expertise, but at the end of the day, you're the boss of your own body. And you get to decide, like what feels right for you.
Amanda
Mm hmm. Totally. That's so important. You're the one who's going to wear this bra. And that's another step to ensuring that you're wearing a bra, buying a bra that you're gonna wear a lot and care for and want to care for, which is the most sustainable decision you can make when it comes to a bra So we talked about all the ways in which you could identify a bra, maybe not being the right size for you. Do you have suggestions, like in terms of places you think are the most consistent with sizing or offers a best range of sizing places where you would buy a bra outside of your store? Obviously, number one, number one broad destination, but after that, thank you.
Sam
Well, another thing. And another thing is like a story of my life has always ended. Another thing is learning like what bra industry terms mean. So sort of understanding that there's different shapes and sizes, and they shouldn't be loaded. But there is like emotional, whatnot that comes with this. So the core sizing in lingerie tends to be 32 to 38, A to D. And that's what you see most of the time. So if you're going to go to a store, that's usually your bare bones, sizes, and a lot of the like. Less cheaper brands, fast fashion brands, like it's easier to make less, it's easier to make less like if you're making fewer sizes and not doing the engineering and like cost of like doing a huge, huge range. It's it's going to cost less money. So that's what you get. So core sizing, and then there's full bust, which is anything above a double D. And then there's plus size, which again, usually in the bra world means above a 38 band. So for most people, you kind of have to know where you're at because not every store carries everything for you. So this is the thing that may makes me mad about so many bra shops or bra brands. They'll do this like beautiful inclusive, like we're here for everybody. And then No, they are your size. So what are you supposed to do? But on the like bigger places to go like Nordstrom tends to have a good range of sizes and a good range of brands and I have heard that their bra fitters are pretty helpful. So if you have a Nordstrom,
Amanda
I've heard this year
Sam
in the UK or US, Visa Mo is a full best specialty store. If you are smaller busted, I've heard every bras are just really comfortable and great. And so if you can get nary bra and it feels good. Yay. Online stores like her room and bare necessities. But then if you can, like independent stores are always always great because then you're supporting like a small business in A and person often in your community. And that can be like a brick or brick and mortar store like mine. But there's also online shops like dang, they don't exist. There used to be a fantastic online shop called Blue Stockings that was like a LGBTQ like focused, luxury boutique. And they are no longer but looking for those like cool little niches where you can say like, in Toronto, we have a store called Judy's house of frills, which I love that name. And she specializes in vintage and reproduction, reproduction, vintage lingerie. So if you're someone who likes that world, like that is heaven for you. But it really depends on like, what your size is, what your budget is, where you're living, your personal preferences, your personal ethics, how much help you need, like, there are some people who are going to go on the abroad that fits Read and be like, Yes, I love this. This is great. I'm gonna like basically like taking university course and learning my bra size. And for other. No, thank you. I just don't want someone to go and take a bra from the back room and it will fit magically. And then I will leave. And that's it. I don't have time for that. So it's snowing, right? And if you can find them also secondhand. So like some of those. There's some Facebook groups, I think like I'm in one where it's like busty clothes and bras swap and sell or something like that. Or Poshmark. Like a lot of people are just selling gently used bras on Poshmark. So if you happen to know, like a brand and a size that fits you.
Amanda
Yeah, I definitely I mean, I'm curious to hear your opinion on this. But I feel like a lot of us do get really loyal to a bra, a bra brand, you know, even a specific model, if you will have brought from that brand. Because it's reliable.
Sam
And I do the same thing like my one of my personal favorite bras is a lomi Morgan. And I will just always buy in a low be alone me Morgan and I have a few of those kicking around but like different. So the thing back to sizing is it depends on the brand. And it out to totally on this totally. And that's actually a good thing. So it's really frustrating as layperson, because you just want to say like, I want to standardize world where this is how this fits. But if there was a standardized world where all you know 36 seeds fit the same. If you were slightly outside of that like model of what a 3060 should fit like, then you're screwed. So it's actually helpful to have a world where some seats are slightly bigger in the cup or slightly bigger in the band, because most people are not exactly one size. And it allows you to find something that is a little bit more tailored to your body because we're not buying tailored clothing. We're just we're not getting things that are made, especially for us. So instead finding something that works for you. So for me, I have discovered a world of Polish bras. Polish lingerie for some reason seems to be something that fits my particular figure really well. And so now I know like not always but certain brands like EPA Mahalik is this genius independent designer and she makes this range from like A to O and she's just working like with a little workshop in Poland making these beautiful bras for you know, this is a Actually one of the people so there's so many bra companies that makes me mad where they say we have the biggest size selection of all time. I'm like, No, you don't You're a liar. I'm a Holic does so she does from a 28 to like 50 something and then from an A to, I don't know, something like an Oh, like she is actually doing the thing. But because she is a smaller company, and because she because polish. And and because there isn't a huge advertising campaign. Most people don't know about the small brands. And yeah, I got to lay off topic, rambling about Polish bras.
Amanda
No, I think and I love that you called it out that a lot of these brands. I mean, it's just like we talked about greenwashing all the time here on the podcast, a lot of people are sort of boob washing where they're like, Yeah, we have all the sizes of bras come and buy from us for so inclusive. And you go look up a site, and they really don't, or they have one bra. Yeah, in larger sizes. And I mean, listen, bra size, diversity is challenging, but don't make claims that you can't deliver. I hate that. Imagine hearing this big brand that you know, so many people buying bras from or you've heard advertised on a podcast has bras for everyone, and you go and your size isn't there. How's that make you feel?
Sam
Exactly? Yeah, I get like, terrible. I guess I'm not a person. I guess I
Amanda
don't exist. Right, right. I mean, I, you know, my experience working on the fast fashion side for all these years is that, you know, at some point, a lot of these fast fashion retailers realized and just the industry as a whole, that there was a lot of money to be made in intimates, because they'd already like made all the clothes, right. And you know, they were as cheap as possible, as fast as possible. And there was a turning point where I was like, okay, there are two more things that we should buy into because we need to make more money, right? We've hit a ceiling. One is intimates. The other is beauty. And these are two, just so highly specialized areas that no one should just be like, No, I do this, you know, without years of research and development. And so then the world got filled with even crappier bras or bras that were super cheap or bra subscriptions. One of my one of my family members, I will not name them. I don't think she's doing this anymore. But she was doing one of those subscription services where she was getting like three bras every month. And I can get to tell you, they didn't fit her. It was really obvious
Sam
and you can never turn it off. That's like with those weird subscripts Oh, that's a Yeah. You're suddenly like, how do I cancel this?
Amanda
Yeah, I went down a weird rabbit hole early in the pandemic, when a lot of time on my hands to just read things on Reddit and then follow the threads the whole way across the internet. And there's that Rihanna, Fenty, by Rihanna subscription service where I think you get bras and underwear. And apparently, it's impossible to quit. Like, they just it's like, impossible. Yeah. And they just keep showing up at your house. But
Sam
it's it's like, like, the Navy is gonna come and get me the three stands.
Amanda
Like Hi now but she's
Sam
like, she's doing some really fantastic stuff with this luxury line. Like I love to see the diversity and body types and shapes and sizes. And, and that's really fantastic. But there's also a bunch of money behind this and a lot of brilliant advertising. So again, we've got that same story where it's like bras for all bodies all sizes. She doesn't make my size and my size. From my knowledge of the bra industry is actually not that weird. It's not unusual. It's a pretty like yes, it's a full bust size, but in full by sizing pretty normal.
Amanda
And yeah, it's
Sam
I feel like there's so many companies who have really a great story so it's this beautiful story and right now the story is like we're good people and and it's I think being good is is important but sometimes got being good is just like a story. And yeah, yeah, and that makes me kind of sad where it's like, there's this product company that has like a beautiful ad campaign of like these like not to airbrush like barely look retouched. I'm sure there's retouching because there always is. Models of all shapes and sizes and ages and a lot of people during the pandemic because they're, they make wirefree bras bought these bras and then they would come to my store and say I got this bra and it didn't fit. And I need something else. And it's yep, I think that the bras that they make are good for a certain size range. So that I, I'm not saying, Oh, they're making bad bras, but I think that they are really designed for someone who is maybe up to a double D cup. But because they have this wonderful ad campaign, and they say, for all sizes, even busty people, so people in my size range would say, well, that that's me. I'm one of those, get one of those bras and then be disappointed. And it just again, then you have this bra that ends up sitting in the back of your drawer or getting thrown out. And it just makes me so mad that that I just wish companies would say what they do. So we make a really great wire free bra. And it fits up to this size.
Amanda
Yeah, yeah, but instead, it's just, we only we dress everyone except you. Yeah, you know? Yeah, no, it's really really frustrating. And I just think this like drive for like, Oh, we're gonna cash in on lingerie on intimates is like has led to all of these companies making poorly fitting things, poor quality things, sending people for weird subscriptions that are not good. And alienating a lot of people by not making their size. Like it's all very bad faith. Because the reality is that making a good bra, it is a feat of engineering Exactly. Like it's a really is.
Sam
It's I tried to so I'm not very good at sewing. So I will disclaimer, but I I can kind of sew a little bit and I took a bra making course it was over a weekend and the bra that I ended up making. And I followed the instructions, it was not me was garbage on me. It was I actually felt better without the bra and like this is actually making my breasts like points in weird directions. Like it was just, it was a nightmare. And it was also really hard. And I know people who are actually talented seamstresses, who are like really good at fiddling with patterns and figuring things out and like tailoring things to their own bodies who are still struggling, especially if they are not in the like, easier to fit sizes. So if they are someone like me who's like a 32, Double G and that kind of world, they'll try to make a bra and it it's really hard. And also most of us don't have access to like these specialized materials. So most companies making bras or like getting custom made underwires or like getting specially tailored fabrics. And if you are doing this on your own you you don't have that and you also don't have like a team of people like working on the the fit and the engineering and testing things out. It's hard.
Amanda
Yeah, no, I mean, it's not no one can just throw a bra out there. Like it's, it's work. And you know, that is a great segue into my next question for you. Not that expensive bra is always a good bra. But why is a good bra frequently more expensive than a bad bra? I know that was like a roundabout question. Because we know that, you know, not all bras Right? Like some people, it's just like with clothing, are charging a lot of money for things that aren't really great quality. There are people out there shocking to hear who are making bad bras and charging a lot of money for them. But like a good bra is probably going to be a little bit more expensive, right? Why is that? So?
Sam
First off, good. Like, first of all, we're so used to wanting undervaluing clothes. So close now are cheaper than they've ever been. And Ciao. Really, for bra where it's often a complicated garment, it's going to cost more because it takes more to make it this isn't to say like if you're living like also we live in the world and some people you just don't have the means you've got to like live within your budget. And if you are buying from a brand that is not making the best bras or is not the most sort of ethical brand like you got to do what you got to do. But one, it usually like more expensive bras usually going to have better quality materials, so materials that will feel better on your body. So I've had Lots of people who will come in and say, I hate license itchy and terrible. And then I'll put them in a lace bra. And they'll say, Oh, this is soft and feels great. And it's because they were getting cheap, itchy lace. So if you have a nice soft lace, then it can be a lovely material, having things like a company that will make specialized underwires, which this is really nerdy, but like having one for full best. So there is this weird thing where they people seem to think that like, as you get faster, you also suddenly get taller, like I kind of sometimes will see it with when they grade plus size clothing, like your shoulders don't suddenly become dramatically higher. And it's the same thing with bras where you have to understand like how bodies change when they leave this sort of like known standard of how sizing works. And a lot of cheap bra companies or cheaper bra companies don't take the time to do that. So they might make your size, but they'll do a bad job of it.
Amanda
Now, it's true that it's a very good call out to.
Sam
And then it's also just different, again, the materials, the sizing, more selection, like unfortunately, for me, like in my size, I'm not going to be able to find of super cheap bra because the companies making super cheap bras don't make my size. So sometimes it's as simple as that. It's like, well, I'm gonna spend a little bit more because this is what's available to me. And then at the end of the day, like you are hoping and that's not always the case. But a bra that is a little more expensive, will hopefully mean that the people who are making that bra are being paid fairly.
Amanda
Mm hmm. It's not a guarantee. But yeah, it's true. If you buy a bra for $10 or less, odds are very high that no one was paid or treated. Well to make it I mean, it just doesn't add up. I'll tell you that even the lowest quality fabrics for intimates are pretty expensive, especially with the materials for bras. This is the lesson I have learned the hard way by observing things go terribly arayat What am I? And I'll tell you like a decent like, you know, stretch or, or mash or power mash. Like, this stuff is so expensive. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of make and a bra. As you mentioned, there, it's it's really hard to sew a bra. It's very technical and specific. There's a lot of sewing involved for how little it is.
Sam
Yeah, it's it's a complicated garment. Like they're a I remember, I went saw, there's the shmancy Bravo Company on prompt, they're French. And they make beautiful bras, I will say their bras are works of art and engineering. They're quite expensive. But I understand why. As, as someone who has has once or twice been able to purchase one of their bras and wear them. But they did like basically a dissection where they took a bra and then had a photo of all of the component parts. And just seeing it like that versus like a T shirt dress wear your it. It's to have sort of a T shirt sewn together. Like with the bra, you're like okay, here's the underwires here's the casing. Here's the hooks and eyes like here's this little seam part here. Here's the straps. Here's the strap like adjusters there's so many little fiddly bits that go in go into to making a bra. So it's going to take a little more time and a little more money.
Amanda
So something that I see coming up often on websites going back, I'm not meaning to drag Rihanna Fenty here, but this is one place where I've seen these call outs where the bras that are maybe a through d look one way. Actually I see this a lot on area to these bras that are larger size don't look the same. They have different side panels, larger straps, wider straps, I would say. i This makes sense to me. Because once again, bras are like a feat of engineering. But do you have any like, easier way to understand why yes, the construction of a bra for a larger size is going to be different.
Sam
Because you're going to be supporting more weight. Right. So it's like some of it is just the engineering so if you trying to think if you had a I'm gonna come up with a really sort of not common example. So like, a quarter cup bra. So this is a bra where there's like, just like a quarter of a cup. And it is it, I feel like we're cooking right now it doesn't, nipples are exposed. This is not an everyday bra. But it's a very, like, sexy vintage feeling bra. And I have seen companies who make full bust Ross make these. And anytime I've seen someone try one of these on, usually, they're disappointed because they're because their breasts aren't able to like stand up on their own. It doesn't look the same as the pitcher of the smaller bust person. So sometimes it's sometimes it's like, okay, we're changing the pattern because it can't do what, like, it's not feasible in terms of engineering, but it's also not always, but sometimes rock companies do no better where they're like, you think that you want this thing, but then you're going to actually see what happens when we make it this way, it's not going to feel good, and you'll feel like uncomfortable, or you won't like the look. So you could make like a very low cut bra with skinny straps. But it's not going to be able to lift your breast to the height of the like, model in the C cup, if you are a G cup, and it's probably going to dig into your shoulders and
Amanda
the strap feeling terrible,
Sam
terrible. If they're using like a single layer of the same like stretch mesh, it's probably not actually going to hold you up. And you might spill over the top edge because it doesn't have enough sort of like strength to hold everything in place. So it's, it's probably just not going to feel as good. So usually all of these like little changes are, are for good reason. And I know it can be frustrating, because I think my issue is sometimes they I sometimes wish that companies who did decided to like, expand their sizing, maybe started on the other end. So started with structure. This is the like expanded size, make a beautiful bra, and then do the small best version. But I think sometimes when they're redesigning to make it fit a bigger size, it's kind of an afterthought. So they're thinking of they're like, Okay, well, it's not gonna work this way engineering sort of business, but they're not really thinking of the like, consumer experience in the fashion experience of it. And it just doesn't have that same glamour, like where I've seen bras and I've seen the small, best and the full best version. And I understand the design story of the smallest version where I'm like, Oh, yes. And this heart, like perfectly goes over your nipple and like that, that's so cool. And then the full bust version. They're just kind of like, Okay, we just put some thicker straps. And now the heart is in a weird place. And like all of the things that you loved about the other one are gone. So
Amanda
I do yeah, I like that idea of starting at the other end, which is
Sam
like not all the time. But I think if you're going to make that full bust bra, just start and make that bra.
Amanda
totally weird, you're going to end up in a better you're a better place for more people. I think, you know, as you were talking I was thinking about and I know you're gonna know what I'm talking about. But, you know, the 90s were really transformative for lingerie thanks to Calvin Klein. And all of the like sheer mash bras and panties. You know, like I remember I'm like why am I blanking on her name. Kate Moss was the model. Always modeling this we saw we actually sold these at my first retail job and at one point Kate Moss and Johnny Jett came in and bought them even though she was I would assume getting some of them for free as the as the Calvin Klein model. But anyway, those bras were not made to hold more than a B cup and that was an intentional decision like those straps were like so thin. The mesh was so thin the cups were so shallow, you know, it was like everything about it was was not inclusive. And I think that was the first time really where we saw fashionable bras and other intimates not believe kind of existing in the first place but not being more inclusive because it was an intentional choice. Yeah, to make things really tiny. And unfortunately, I think we, we've seen because that aesthetic is still really popular. Everybody's got a share mesh bra, right? I think that we've seen some of that carry into even this century, where I listen, I've tried on bras where I'm like, I, no one should have to wear this strap, no one, you know, like you can, it's, you're in the fitting room, and it's cutting into your shoulders already. I do think that much like, I hope we're in the beginning of a new era with clothing, where we're starting to see that like, maybe where we start with extra small and then work our way up isn't the best approach anymore, because it's not creating the best clothes that fit the most people and make people feel the happiest. Perhaps we need to revisit that with lingerie too. I think that that is such a good point. Thank you. Yeah. And yeah, I
Sam
think this is again, why like, I wish that I feel there's always this urge to be the company that does everything. And that usually ends up meaning that if you try to do that, you're going to do a bad job in some places. And so again, it goes to that, like where I want companies to, I think specializing is good. And I think it's just being clear about specializing. So there are also like I talk all about like full best bras. But I know for people who wear smaller cups, buying bras can also be miserable. And I've seen some bras made for smaller cup sizes that are just bad, where they like, placed the breast like the wires are really close together and like super in the center of the chest. And so even, like, it's gonna gap weird and like poke you at the sides. It's just like, you just need to space those cups apart. And those wires need to be wider in the cups. Like, it's just not the right shape. And I I love seeing these smaller companies who are like, Hey, I am I'm making this thing and we're doing a good job of it. And I yeah, I guess it's just going back to like, if you if you're able to sort of know, know your limits in terms of what you can do and not try to do everything. It's like, oh, we're fast fashion brand. And now we're gonna do a makeup line. And now we're going to do a lingerie line. Like, I think that there's always this this urge in, in business to like, expand everywhere. But sometimes that isn't the right choice.
Amanda
Yeah, Agreed. Agreed. I think that could summarize a lot of bad things that have appeared in this world in the past, like ever, basically. Okay, one last question I have for you about bras that it's on my mind all the time. Why are strapless bras so horrible? And is there a good one? Or should we all just give up?
Sam
One so,
Amanda
I mean, I get it. It's like it's hard architecturally, right, you're
Sam
supporting right without straps. So here's a bunch of reasons. One again, if you're in the right size, most likely you're going to get a better experience to getting like the right bra so if you are sort of like in the small to medium zone, what Cole makes abroad called the red carpet that is brilliant. If your plus size Sculptris makes abroad called Dana. If you are busty with a smaller band Curvy Kate makes the Lux like any bra nerd will know these bras because they're good. And they do. But also sometimes it's your body not to say like your body is a problem. But I'm a I own a bra store. I'm a bra fitter, and they're strapless bras that are made in my size. And I do not own one because they feel like garbage because I have a ribcage that kind of flares out. And that means without having the straps to sort of relieve some of the weight of the wires and the pressure. It's just horribly uncomfortable. So if I am going to wear something strapless, I want to get a boost da because it's going to go down either to my waist or to my hips and that means it's spreading out the pressure and I'm getting all the support from below. So it's again that sort of architectural engineering thing. I just Yeah, so strapless bras suck because sometimes they just suck. But a boost ta if you find like you try a million strapless bras and no matter what they're not feeling good then then maybe look at a boost GA, or, or bra tape.
Amanda
I hadn't even thought of that. After I asked you this before I was like, Oh, you're right, it is a lot to ask if a bra. There was no strap to just like do all the bra things with half the equipment missing?
Amanda
You know, I guess the last thing I wanted to just ask you or talk about you know, when you first reached out to me said like, oh, you probably wouldn't want to have me on your podcast because you know, I don't sell sustainable bras bras are made of synthetic fabrics. Swimwear is made of synthetic fabrics. So like, probably, you wouldn't want to talk about that. But I you know, I told you I was like, I think there are a lot of ways in which what you're doing embraces progress, not perfection, which is what we're all about around here. So I was just wondering if you had some thoughts on that.
Sam
That is something I'm trying to live by. So one, I'm by trying to do one good thing. So one of the good things, I'm trying to do good thing, but like, I want to be able to help people feel more comfortable and to be able to buy bras in a way that is not stressful. And I want I've narrowed my focus to busty people because I'm a busty person. So I'm selfishly saying bras for us. But I want to make like a stressful and uncomfortable shopping experience less so. And I think that that's a good thing. And I want to be able to carry sizes that are usually hard to find. And I think that that's a good thing. And then the other thing that I'm like, working towards but it's not perfect is like being a boss, which is weird and uncomfortable.
Amanda
It's really hard.
Sam
Where it's, especially as a small business owner, there's like your, if you look at a lot of the advice that like the world gives you It's like how to be an like, wow, we can you can pay your employees less than here's how to cut corners, and it's really, really gross. And so I'm not, I'm not perfect, like one day, I would like to be a store that pays a living wage of one day, I would like to earn a living wage, but at least trying to work towards those things. So there's a really cool, really cool kit for the kids. There's this group called the better way Alliance and they're like a group of like small businesses in in my province guarantee shear. But I discovered them and they're all about sort of decent work practices. And this is where I've decided to focus my attentions because there's only so many things I can do at one time. And so it's doing the things that allow the best experience that at this time I can give the people who work for me so that means I want to focus on you know, a fair wage I want to I offer paid sick days, I was really excited to be able to like do health benefits.
Amanda
That's amazing
Sam
and dental benefits and it's just but it's it's seeing like setting those goals and realizing again in that progress not perfection that I can't do everything all at once like I live in the world and making those little steps forward towards where I want to be. And I think that that is something that like a lot of it was really weird. So sorry. I'm going to ramble again, like during the turning the pandemic. So there was a lot of talk about paid sick days, because if someone is sick with COVID after And most of us have come in sick to work, but especially when you're not like making with you're working in a factory or a restaurant or in retail, there's that like, I, if I don't go into work, I'm not gonna get paid. So I'm just going to read through it totally. And, also, there is like a weird culture to in work where everyone's like fall, you're gonna let down your co workers or like, You're being a baby, if you don't come in, and you're sick. And that got even worse when it's like, oh, well, someone could get really sick. And like it were people sick when it came to COVID. And so there were a lot of people trying to like, talk about paid sick days. And that was something I always offered at my store. And when COVID head, I was like, I'm going to extend the amount that I offer. So if you know someone needs to quarantine or whatever I can, they're not going to stress out and they'll know that they're taken care of. But the The complaint was always like, this is gonna ruin small businesses, you're like, if people offers paid sick days, or small businesses. And it's, it's so off. And these are the people like, really, it's the voices of big businesses who are saying this, but they're using small businesses as this like excuse where it's like, you're gonna ruin the mom and pops. And it makes me so mad. And I just I wish that when businesses were being created or growing, they were starting from a place of I like wrapping these costs into your startup costs.
Amanda
Oh, 100%. I mean, it's like the injustice is baked into the model
Sam
exactly. Where it's like, yeah, well, maybe this place won't run because like, the only way many businesses are running is because they're exploiting people.
Amanda
Yeah, that's a problem. It's, it's funny because of what's not funny, but I literally had that exact thought this morning, I was brushing my teeth getting ready for work. And I was listening to NPR and they were interviewing someone who was just like a total asshole, who was like going on about this and that, like, all the things that like happened during the pandemic, that made it harder to be profitable as a business, and I was like, fuck you. You can't pay people or give them sick days. Or I'm not talking at a small business level, but like large business level, if you can't do these things, you're the problem. Yeah, not the workers who want who need these things.
Sam
Exactly. And I like, I know, I can't hold myself to the same standards as like a huge corporation. But I like to try to within a reasonable ways say that where, when I made my business plan, I said, these are some of the things that are non negotiable. And then these are some of the things that I want to work towards. So I knew I wouldn't be able to do health benefits when I first opened, especially because a lot of places don't offer that for like Ace, like one person or two people like it just was not possible. But I knew it was something I was working towards. And so when it came to, like, where does the money go next, if my store is growing and becoming like, more successful, it's not like, Oh, I'm going to open five new locations. Not that I'm anywhere near that. But like, it's, it's seeing these things as Sorry, I'm on like, but like having these policies in place. It's not just because you want to be a nice person, it's because it means people are happier, and they're going to want to work for you. And they're going to actually like care about their work more. It's not like I am also being selfish and like trying to do these things. Because it it means like, people want to stick around.
Amanda
Yeah. And yeah,
Sam
then you don't have to go through hiring all the time. And it means that customers are going to have a better experience because like, we've all been to places like sometimes someone's just having a hard day or someone just doesn't want to work. But often like if you're going to a place and you have a really bad experience, like Well, why is everyone so grumpy at this?
Amanda
Oh my god, like every time I go somewhere now that's like where my brain goes. And I like start to dissect it because it's not a coincidence, you know?
Sam
Exactly. Yeah. So It's, I don't know, I, I hope, I hope as like, I wish that there were and it's so great having this this podcast and so great having for me having that group, because for a lot of entrepreneurs and small businesses, the advice out there are the guidelines out there based on just being awful and making as much money as possible. And it's, it feels like you're being like an a utopian when you try to think of how to do things differently. And so it's really nice to see examples of other businesses who are trying and succeeding. And saying, like, if I do this, it doesn't mean I'm going to be set up for failure. And I think it's important to like, have people talking about this. So if if you're like, at home thinking, like, I want to start a small business, or I want to do this like that, you can say like, okay, like this, this is this is a real thing.
Amanda
It says, yeah, it is possible, it absolutely is possible, it becomes less possible seeming, although still possible, the larger you get, it's sort of like, I don't know, if you were like, I'm too busy to brush my teeth, right? 10 years ago, and you never found the time to get back in to brush your teeth. This is a very depressing story. I hope this isn't happening to anyone, but 10 years and brushing your teeth later, there's no turning back, man, you're gonna have to go get like full fake teeth, you know. And it's like a similar thing to be like, Oh, I'm small, I'm not going to try to offer these benefits. Because someday, if your goal is some large growth, which a lot of entrepreneurs that is what they're imagining, right, that's like, what we're trained to want something you have 1000 employees, and no one has health insurance. Well, you know, that might be a little extreme, but like, I worked for a company, I mean, to be really honest, I want to say our sales were about, I don't know, 20 $30 million a year. That's not a tiny amount of money. The company roughly probably had 2530 employees in total, none of us had health insurance. And my boss's CEO was like, Well, you know, profitability is our number one focus, we can't do it. And I was just like, this should have been baked into the model five years ago, exactly. Saying, This is insane. And so unethical. And like, people I worked with, like, you know, we're also of course, wildly underpaid. People couldn't see doctors for their health issues. I mean, it was just so unconscionable. When I saw, I knew how much money was coming in every month, every year. Just so messed up the amount of money we're spending on marketing, but we couldn't spend, just take a tiny shave a little bit off of that and give everybody health care. Don't Don't be that don't be that, you know, yeah, I don't want to give when I hear things like that about companies, I'm like, well, that person is never getting a dime from me again. Exactly. You know? Well, do you have any final thoughts, words of wisdom that you want everyone to hear? I have, I have thoughts. If you have nothing I
Sam
have thoughts on being an entrepreneur. Okay, tell us about it, which is I'm able to do this because I'm really lucky. And Which isn't to say like, if you're not in the same circumstances, but there's this whole like, oh, like everyone like working from the ground up. I I'm lucky that I have a partner who has a full time job. So those times where I couldn't pay myself, I knew that we would be able to like scramble our rent and groceries together. Like, I'm lucky that I had friends and family who are supportive enough to like, help me in many ways from just sometimes listening to like, here is like a little bit of money to help you or I'm gonna come and paint your store with you like, there are so many reasons why I am where I am I like I, I, there was a program that helps entrepreneurs and this is like, the reason I was able to have my business was because they go through this whole program and you write a business plan, and then they help you secure a loan. And if I was to go and try to get a loan, where I was at, when I opened the business, everyone would have laughed at me and said no, but because I had the backing of this government program that said like, here's some young entrepreneurs who, like did this program, you can trust them. I was able to get that loan. And I think that like There's so many ways to have a business. And it doesn't always mean like, having like a physical location of a store. And like, there's ways to like, build it from the ground up. But I feel like there, there's a lot of like, guilt and impostor syndrome from people where they, they look at these success stories, and you never hear about the, like, connections that people had, or the sort of privileges that people had that allowed them to get where they are. And I try to be transparent about that. Because I hate that. Like, I'm just a scrappy entrepreneur. Yes, I'm a scrappy entrepreneur. But also I had
Amanda
I hate it. That's always the narrative that is pushed by like Business Media, and I hate it. And I think that we all need to be more straightforward about that. Like, yes, plenty of people. Will a lot of people are able to be entrepreneurs because of various various privileges. Others, sometimes people don't succeed as entrepreneurs. I don't feel like we hear about that Winston, we're sold this idea of like, it's so easy if you work hard enough. Yeah. You know, and that's that, that if you're not succeeding, it's because you're bad at working. You know,
Sam
sometimes it's just like, Yeah, I don't, I don't have the connections or I don't have the resources or whatever. And some of it's just luck.
Amanda
Like, I had so much luck. So much like any of my friends who have been successful or unsuccessful with their businesses will tell you, it is so random, sometimes. It's just works or doesn't work. And it's not for the faint of heart. It really is. It really isn't. Well, thank you so much. This was so delightful. I can't believe how long we talked about bras but I feel like we barely made a dent in the subject. You
Thanks again to Sam for spending many hours with me. In fact, as we were about to start recording–I always give every guest a spiel about how the recording process works, editing, all of that stuff…there was a weird power surge in my house that momentarily knocked out our power! My computer shut down, then it seemed to forget my password so I had to go through a long and frustrating rigmarole of resetting my Apple ID…and then my monitor wouldn’t work, then I broke a glass….anyway there was this 30 minute lull where I was in panic mode dealing with all of this nonsense. But I pulled it together, Sam was an amazing guest, and we had a great time! So thank you Sam! You can find Sam on Instagram as @broadlingerie. And I’ll share all of her other contact info in the show notes.

I’m just going to say it again: The most sustainable bra is one that fits you well, makes you feel your best, and gets a lot of wear and proper care. Nothing is disposable (especially bras) so if it turns out that none of the bras in your drawer actually fulfill my definition of the most sustainable bra (because they fit terribly and/or cause your physical discomfort…or never get worn) then thoughtfully rehome them using some of the outlets suggested by Sam, like your local Buy Nothing Group, a clothing swap, or donate them to a shelter. Remember, it’s progress, not perfection…and when we’re all working together to make positive changes like this and sharing what we’ve learned with others, we really do make a lot of progress!!!