Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Historians Michael Campbell (PhD) and Gregory Howell (PhD, abd) take us on a journey through the world of Adventist history with fantastic interviews, discoveries, and details you won't hear anywhere else.
Note: This transcript was created by AI with the intelligence of a warm potato. As such, there may be spelling, grammatical, or perhaps even moral errors in the transcript below:
00:00:00:09 - 00:00:29:01
Unknown
Welcome to another episode. I'm your co-host, Michael Campbell. I'm joined by Greg Howell. And we've got our special guests. Matthew Lucio Adventist History Podcast fame, and Dr. Jud Lake, beloved professor from Southern. And we won't say how many years, but I we're delighted that we can be here together and he is he's so he's shown us zero years.
00:00:29:01 - 00:00:55:22
Unknown
I think it's I think like the odometer rolled over. I think it's about 40 years, 40 years. All right. We just won't go there. But yeah, we just did. But but anyways, we're just delighted. And we've been going through a series, this third part in a series where we've been looking at some of these historical kind of, I guess you could say, accusations that have been alleged against Adventist
00:00:56:09 - 00:01:14:11
Unknown
Our Adventist You know what it would do? I would disbelieve in terms of our history. And and I know Dr. Lake, you've done a couple of bonus episodes through your podcast, so we're kind of on a journey and we want to look at some of these topics and issues and try to unpack them a little bit. Is there more to the story?
00:01:14:17 - 00:01:39:06
Unknown
The rest of the story? And to try to give a little bit more of a broader context as as people who study Aventis history and as people that I work for the church in various capacities, teaching, pastoring and what have you, that these are opportunities to just dig a little deeper. That's why I'm just Pilgrimage podcast is all about digging a little bit deeper into some of this story.
00:01:39:07 - 00:01:59:12
Unknown
So Matthew, we've got a couple of clips and then we're going to kind of dive in and talk about them and try to unpack them for you. Yeah, Just as a reminder for our listeners, we are taking some clips from an interview, two former evidence did on a podcast called Cultish. And as Michael alluded to, we've done two previous episodes on that.
00:01:59:12 - 00:02:18:10
Unknown
If you haven't heard them, you might want to go give them a listen. It's not required, but it'll help make a little bit more sense of what's going on. But anyways, we're pulling some clips from that interview that they gave. They're trying to explain these former evidence to trying to explain Advent ism to these hosts of the Cultish podcast, and we're just responding to them.
00:02:18:10 - 00:02:44:00
Unknown
So listen to this clip. Then we've got some thoughts on it. The true movers and shakers were James White, Elon's husband, who had an entrepreneurial gift, and his friend Joseph Bates. Joseph Bates and James White came out of the movement called The Christian Connection. They became, Miller writes, As people in the Christian Connection and the Christian connection is distinct.
00:02:44:00 - 00:03:15:00
Unknown
And I name that especially because it was staunchly anti Trinitarian, as were Joseph Bates and James White. So everything that developed was developed around that anti Trinitarian stance. The founders were anti Trinitarian and Aryan or semi Arian. Ellen White was perhaps the exception because he was raised Methodist, but I think she had no real theological convictions. She was more moved by the visions that she started having as a teenager.
00:03:15:11 - 00:03:41:00
Unknown
So this anti Trinitarian ism is what actually set the foundation for Advent ism and everything that grew out of it grew out of that. And that means that Advent isms, physical ism, the humans have no spirit separate from the body that God has a body. They don't tell you that, but internally they all know it. They they have the idea that God has a body.
00:03:41:00 - 00:04:11:03
Unknown
Those things alter how people believe about sin, about salvation, about the nature of Christ, about what made him sinless. Was he sinless or not? Advent ism could never come to a consensus on that because on White couldn't because she didn't know how to explain it. Right. So everything about the way Advent ism sees reality is shifted because they don't believe in spirit and they don't believe that God is truly triune, in spite of the fact that they have a sort of Trinitarian statement.
00:04:11:04 - 00:04:27:10
Unknown
Now, they fixed that up to be publicly acceptable, but underneath it they do not believe that the three persons of the Trinity share substance, and they still teach that Jesus is not omnipresent because he has a body that makes him not God. Mm hmm. Oh, boy.
00:04:29:14 - 00:04:49:22
Unknown
The man is absolutely amazing. There's a lot in that statement. There is a lot in that statement. That's what makes it so difficult. Because you just started by. Yeah, my claim after claim after claim after claim. None of these. I will remind our listeners we're actually backed up with anything. You guys can go listen to the Cultish Podcast episode, watch the whole thing.
00:04:50:21 - 00:05:14:06
Unknown
There's no real proof of this, so maybe we can start. Guys at the top were ravenous pioneers, anti Trinitarian, and she mentions that Joseph Bates and James White both came out of the Christian Connection. Is there some truth there? What's going on with that? Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. I'm going to dive in right there first at the beginning, because this whole Christian connection thing, I think you have to understand what is a Christian connection.
00:05:14:07 - 00:05:38:03
Unknown
Christian connection wasn't like a formal denomination. That's not like Methodism, which was actually still loosely connected, but it still had some structure or Presbyterian ism, which was highly structured, right? So Christian Connection was actually against church organization. So it's a loose affiliation of people. And the pulse of the early 19th century was restore the purity of the early Christian church.
00:05:38:03 - 00:06:02:13
Unknown
So this is a loose connection of of Christians to Elyse Smith and after Jones and others were probably some of the more visible advocates of this. But but the idea of studying the Bible, restoring to the primitive purity of the church within that larger milieu of of Christians, of restoration as Christians. Christian connection is another term for these.
00:06:02:13 - 00:06:23:08
Unknown
Restoration is I mean, there's a lot of different names. They didn't like, names they didn't like organization because as soon as you did that, then you were Babylon, because you were becoming established, you're becoming organized. And so that's why a lot of these churches didn't last very long, and they were very loosely affiliated with each other, mostly through periodicals and sharing of ideas.
00:06:24:05 - 00:06:51:15
Unknown
And because it was such a broad and diverse group, a very fluid kind of group, you're going to have, of course, people that were resistant to notions of the Trinity for the same reason that James and Ellen White and others were hesitant to use the term Trinity because of its Catholic associations. And there were some there were some in the Christian connection that were very had, especially the questions about the origin of Christ and stuff like that.
00:06:51:23 - 00:07:15:17
Unknown
But it's hard to give in one blanket statement as if, you know, it was a disease that somehow James and Joseph Bates caught and therefore was contagious and then contaminated early savagery. And and that doesn't do justice to the movement, The broader movement or the religious landscape. You know, this is the time of a lot of a lot of a lot of questioning, you know, how do we go back?
00:07:15:17 - 00:07:41:01
Unknown
And and so and America was an experiment at that time to write a democratic experiment. Will it will it succeed? You know, in the early 19th century, it wasn't quite as sure people weren't as sure as maybe we are now. And in terms of we can look back with hindsight, but but they're still trying to figure this all out, both politically as well as religiously, socially, and a lot of different kinds of things.
00:07:41:16 - 00:08:08:02
Unknown
Certainly there was anti Trinitarian ism, but it's it's not a it was not a given. And the other thing I just want to start off with is that Ellen White had no geological police of her own. So James and Joseph Bates have they're obviously very influenced. But but then Ellen suddenly, you know, pure Ellen just, you know, is naive and doesn't have any beliefs or background in her Methodist background, I think is very significant.
00:08:09:09 - 00:08:41:03
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah that that and that's another part is the Wesleyan Armenian background that came through Ellen White, a number of animal rights ministers that became said that they had Venice, there was the Wesleyan Armenian. The Reformation was a route. The and as you mentioned, the Christian Connection was part of the larger restoration movement. But she said staunchly anti Trinitarian and you know you Michael the correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of the leaders of the Christian connection movement they were more Sumerians than full.
00:08:41:10 - 00:09:07:09
Unknown
You know we'd probably that's how we thought she'd characterize them today. Mm hmm. I'm not full Aryan, but Sumerian. And even that was a shift, right? There was a sense in the 1870s, guys like White James White, a Uriah Smith, they had an anti trinity sense of things. James even was quoted as calling it the inexplicable Trinity. But by the mid 1870s, Smith is starting to write quite differently.
00:09:08:03 - 00:09:28:21
Unknown
He's shifting toward the more of a a sense that Jesus is begotten rather than, you know, as the created being. It did not. I don't see a history of anti Trinitarian ism and had been to him anyway. Being a staunch. We have always thought this and we've continued to think this. Therefore now all of our doctrines flow from that.
00:09:29:06 - 00:09:54:22
Unknown
That's that that doesn't reflect what actually happens in our theology. And I think you're talking about, Oh, go ahead, Michael. Well, just really quick, you know, early I'm just ministers. I went back and counted them up and depending on the cut off, you know, the first 80 or so early saboteur and AM and just ministers that form the seventh day I'm just church from the first couple of decades but one third are Baptist, one third are Methodist and about one third are Christian connection and a host of other different denominations.
00:09:54:22 - 00:10:15:12
Unknown
Actually, Christian connection is one of the smallest influences, but obviously it's influential through James White and Joseph Payne. So we just have to look at that. There was a broad smorgasbord of influence, but actually Baptist Methodists have probably the most significant, substantial in terms of the the shaping of theology in those early amateurs pastors. But back to you, Matthew.
00:10:16:07 - 00:10:46:14
Unknown
Yeah, thank you. Good point. I think, you know, I think what we're doing here is we're acknowledging there were some there was some semi-arid ism in early advent is you can't deny that. Definitely. Yeah. I think what we what we have a problem with what I have a problem with is the is the insinuation that this was as as Colleen put a foundational that everything that grew out of Advent ism grew out of this and you know I think today we probably expect that it should work that way.
00:10:47:04 - 00:11:06:19
Unknown
But I mean, it really isn't connected to anything else that that, you know, it's not connected to the Sabbath. It's not connected to this Day of the dead. It's not connected to having his views on hell. I mean, like so this semi Aaron ism for those advocates who were seminarian, you know you would expect that there'd be a big fight about this fairly early on.
00:11:06:19 - 00:11:33:00
Unknown
You know are we a Trinitarian church or not? And there really wasn't there was a gradual kind of growing out of that seminarian ism into what we have today, which the church is overwhelmingly Trinitarian. Yeah, but it wasn't foundational. So I kind of want to ask her, in what way is everything that Advent ism is today somehow rooted in that semi-arid period where where some evidence were indeed semi-arid?
00:11:33:05 - 00:11:59:17
Unknown
I don't see it. I don't understand how it could be so. Well, she's going to answer. She would answer. I would think she would answer quite straightforwardly. It's this physicality of God. Yeah, sure, we'll get to that. And just connecting that to the Trinity, it's just there's always a quote from James White in 1876. He publishes it in the Review and herald an article called The Two Bodies, and he says Seventh Day Adventists hold the divinity of Christ.
00:11:59:17 - 00:12:23:10
Unknown
So nearly with the Trinitarian that we apprehend no trial here. Interesting. If it was such a huge difference of opinion, why isn't White as a staunch anti Trinitarian supposedly trumpeting the total opposite of this statement? I mean, it's it's not what we're claiming and it doesn't seem to be an argument that we even felt was necessary to have.
00:12:23:19 - 00:12:43:21
Unknown
Right. And that's 1876. Yeah. So, John, you're bringing up the physicality of God because she does mention that she's she says Advent isms, physical ism. We don't have a quote for every claim that was made in this interview, but you want to explain what did she mean by that? This is a new one. He would tell me. Yeah, yeah, that it.
00:12:43:23 - 00:13:03:05
Unknown
I think it's a new creative approach that I've never heard heard them use before. It is I go through this, then I want to lead and get us back into the Trinity, because I think there's a number of things that to really set forth about that because we're accused of being still to this day, we don't believe in the Trinity.
00:13:03:05 - 00:13:28:19
Unknown
That's what she said. This is more of a background of that. But she is really capitalizing on this physicality of God. I think that's her discovery among some others. And I bet as you listen to the proclamation website and the presentations, I mean, the what the clip we heard was really a compilation of many things. And presentations that they've made about this.
00:13:28:19 - 00:14:11:19
Unknown
And she and others have been writing on this and and so forth and and the physicality of God. This is basically a response to the Adventist perspective on biblical holism. That man is a whole person, not a separate body and spirit. And so they are saying that we we believe that that we're totally physical beings, we're holistic because we're saying God is a physical being and they go back to a state, to a little pamphlet writing essay that James White wrote where he says God has a body and parts, and Uriah Smith wrote about that as well.
00:14:11:19 - 00:14:31:12
Unknown
And some of his things about immortality, the soul that God is like flesh. And then they cast that as we're seeing God as flesh and blood. And that means and the implications of that are well, he's part of the creative universe since God is physical. And so they go on with all these implications. I'll get into some of that here in a moment.
00:14:32:04 - 00:15:00:08
Unknown
But they also, in saying that the basic starting point is the statement on White made about the father. And this is in Spiritual Gifts Volume two page 74. She says, I've often seen the lovely Jesus that he is a person. I asked him if his father was a person and had a form like himself said, Jesus, I am the express image of my father's person.
00:15:00:20 - 00:15:18:09
Unknown
I've often seen that the spiritual view took away the glory of heaven, and then in many minds, the throne of David and the throne of the lovely person of Jesus had been burned up in the fire of spiritualism. And of course they make fun of the fact that will administer. She's so scared of spiritualism. They want to make God totally physical.
00:15:19:04 - 00:15:46:17
Unknown
But what I will argue is that that actually is a platonic presupposes organ that's been inserted here behind the whole immortal soul ism. And that's a position Adventists have taken. That that's a foreign presupposes alien to Scripture. That man has a immortal soul that that survives beyond the body. You read Plato and I've taught philosophy for years and Plato and is very clear about that.
00:15:46:17 - 00:16:09:20
Unknown
And Plato diminishes the physical and emphasizes the spiritual, the world of forms is the where the spiritual realities are. And that's true reality. And down here are the particulars, the physical. And that's not really real. It's very interesting. Keep that in the background as I go through this. But there that of course for them they believe in immortal soul ism, which is many Christians do.
00:16:10:06 - 00:16:39:07
Unknown
And this is this is a very creative way of coming after Adventist on this and saying this is the foundation of our teaching. And the implications of this are for the Trinity, for example, which we'll get into in a little bit. It would lead towards try theism facing God as a physical being. How can it be one and separate and so forth, so you can see how they would really take this and and run with it.
00:16:40:00 - 00:17:08:22
Unknown
But in Illinois whites Vision and James White, the background is in all the creeds God was presented as is total spirit an abstract principle. But for them and you read what Ella White is saying there, Jesus is a person that you can relate to. The Father is a person you can relate to. Ella might never use some of the exact language that her husband and your Smith did, that God has flesh and blood.
00:17:08:22 - 00:17:38:05
Unknown
God has parts. Not at all. And by in in saying that none of us are saying that God is so physical that he's limited, that he's part of the creation, whatever form he has, if only white is right, then it's it's clearly separate from the creation. He's he's God for whatever form he has. He's the deity. He's inhabits eternity anyway.
00:17:38:16 - 00:18:06:13
Unknown
So they emphasize Jesus statement to the woman at the well, remember in John four God is Spirit. God is spirit in their efforts that they they go to the opposite extreme of physicality of God and say God is total spirit. And they take that and say, well, there's a and they were making fun of the array, an idea, you know, and Jesus coming back to the gate of Orion that heaven is not a physical place.
00:18:06:19 - 00:18:34:14
Unknown
It's that there's no real place, no real sanctuary. It's all spiritual. And so they kind of take the opposite total opposite position. And the argument for this about the the human spirit is in Genesis 317, where it states from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat for in that day that you eat of it, you will surely die.
00:18:35:06 - 00:19:06:08
Unknown
Well, Adam and Eve didn't die after they ate the forbidden fruit, but it says they will die. So they died spiritually. And they. And they argue that Adventists missed the point. That man has the spiritual nature that will live beyond the body. But it's spiritual and Adventist don't believe in the spiritual nature of human beings. And that's where I want to stop you there because that to me was an astounding claim that that having us don't believe that we have a spiritual component to our.
00:19:08:03 - 00:19:26:11
Unknown
Yeah, it's it's quite amazing. Yeah. And let me draw some implications from this and find this interesting in spring virtual discussion. But then I want to go to Genesis one as well and look at some interest and respond to that. But of course I've already said the Trinity. That means try theism because it's the father is a physical being.
00:19:26:16 - 00:19:48:00
Unknown
He can't be everywhere at once and the spirit separate and it and of course we know we do not adhere to try theism but we'll get into that in a moment and then there's no heavenly sanctuary because they're saying that's where they say it's the foundation, because if God is physical, he's in a physical place. Well, that adds to the advent.
00:19:48:00 - 00:20:12:04
Unknown
His teaching of the heavenly sanctuary and the cleansing of the sanctuary. It's a literal place and literal blood and all of this. So they take those things to an extreme. And what was most interesting is in fundamental beliefs, this this book, the Exposition Page 94, where it's talking about the nature of man. They and this is in their discussion on the cultish interview, but they really capitalize on this.
00:20:12:04 - 00:20:33:01
Unknown
No, this is not on the cult interview. Excuse me. This is in another presentation, a podcast that that Nikki and Colleen made about the nature of man. So they really capitalize on this statement that's related to the cultures interview. And this is quoted on page 94 in fundamental beliefs on the nature of man. Similarly, a new soul comes into existence.
00:20:33:01 - 00:20:58:11
Unknown
Whenever a child is born, each soul will be in a new unit of life, uniquely different from and separate from the other similar units. And of course they they they poke fun at the the units. We're all units of life. In some ways. I don't like them. I'm not crazy about that language myself. But the point here is a new soul comes into existence whenever a child is born.
00:20:58:17 - 00:21:28:14
Unknown
And so they interpret that is the Adventists believe that a baby is not a full human being until the baby is birthed and takes its first breath. And then and that's the background for our practice of abortion, because we don't believe a baby is a full human being. A conception is only a full human being at birth. And so this physicality of of God and human beings, they draw this this abortion from it.
00:21:28:18 - 00:21:58:05
Unknown
Now, Michael and Matthew, you know, do we Well, what's our stance on abortion? Well, you just go to the general conference Web page and you can find just Google it and you'll find the official statement by the church on abortion. But basically, unless the life of the mother is like in some kind of grave jeopardy, avid, just try to value the life of the infant, the preborn infant as much as possible.
00:21:58:05 - 00:22:29:03
Unknown
So obviously, it's a complicated issue. There's even a lot of politics about it. But the average is generally or not. I mean, there's always exceptions, but they generally are not trying to encourage abortions. Certainly not. Not not as you know, that's not if we don't try to to do that if if at all possible. Is that fair to say, Matthew, Greg, I think it's fair.
00:22:29:03 - 00:22:54:08
Unknown
I think that if we're talking about it in terms of what we actually believe now, yeah, I think our theology has developed itself over time and using some of these statements in the past to say that that's normative for our theological foundation. That's that's a really hard ask. No, no one particular article and and review and herald from way back then suddenly created, you know, our huge stance on all these other issues.
00:22:54:20 - 00:23:37:12
Unknown
Mm hmm. Yeah. And perhaps some Adventist hospitals have been inconsistent with that. And, you know, I don't I don't know. Of course, the the proclamation group, they claim that abortions are taking place and and so forth, But that but that's not my understanding. That's not the church's stance. It's been it's tightened it up in just recent the last year Eckhart Miller, scholar from the Biblical Research Institute just wrote a little brief pimply pamphlet, biblical research pamphlet about abortion ism and makes the case, the biblical case, extremely clear that life begins at conception, human life and human life.
00:23:37:12 - 00:24:13:00
Unknown
Yes, human life begins at conception. And for abortion is categorically wrong with a few exceptions, as you were describing, Michael. But but the emphasis is that whatever the case may be, whether it's done in a right or wrong manner, abortion, the church should be there to support people. And if if if we're going to encourage people to have babies, then we need to be consistent and be there to envelop them and help them when they have that babies.
00:24:13:06 - 00:24:32:17
Unknown
If it's a circumstance that's really problematic, we need to envelop them with love and care and help. And so the pamphlet is very consistent with that. So this idea that, well, first of all, whatever that we would practice abortion that don't believe a baby is a baby until it takes the first breath after coming out of the birth canal.
00:24:32:19 - 00:25:02:13
Unknown
It's just ridiculous. That's not in advance understanding. And this this the the pamphlet that argues very biblically and carefully that that we believe life, human life begins at conception is very clear. And so that is not a correct implication that one can tell at all. Well, it just sounds like they're taking this particular statement. They're interpreting it as God has some kind of physical body, and then they're just extrapolating in every in every direction.
00:25:02:15 - 00:25:19:22
Unknown
It's kind of like taking a good word, taking it to its extremes. Well, that must mean that avenues are okay with abortion because. Right. The baby isn't, as you put it, isn't a human being until it's born. And that must mean that they don't have a spiritual nature and all these things. But it just it makes no sense when you actually read what evidence have written.
00:25:20:18 - 00:25:40:06
Unknown
And that's that's the thing. Yes. You know, there's a lot of things where you think, well, I can just take this to its logical conclusion. But but not everybody goes that far. Like, it's not about what you think could be done with this idea. It's about whether Avin is actually, believe it or not. And I think it's it's pretty clear that we do believe we have a spiritual nature.
00:25:41:13 - 00:25:58:00
Unknown
We do believe that we we we you know, you mentioned the statements on abortion. There's there's one on the website. Make a point of this, too, and it says very clearly, point number two, God considers the unborn child as human life, you know, so that this goes back to what we talked about in the last episode with deception.
00:25:58:00 - 00:26:21:05
Unknown
When you claim that, well, you can never believe what having to say because they're always trying to deceive you, I guess, then who do we believe? Because we're quoting from official statements or quoting from our own or reciting our own experience in Advent ism. And we're trying to tell you all this is what we actually believe. And as always, we're we're telling you, if you're not having you're listening.
00:26:21:22 - 00:26:40:23
Unknown
Go check these things out yourself. Go Google the abortion statement. You can look up some of these things Dr. Lake is talking about. He's you can just go back and replay them and you can just Google phrases and things. We're going to put some things in the show notes for you guys to to check out as well. But I do want to continue on this anti Trinitarian ism thing for a second.
00:26:40:23 - 00:27:10:11
Unknown
We talked about the physical ism, the idea that God has a body and this is this strange idea that they've come up with lately. Can I, can I give some scriptural quick Chris scriptural response either now or later to this physicality issue? Sure, go ahead, Rick. What needs to be said and do that now? Okay. Well, Genesis 126 and they make this argument that the image of God, you know, Genesis 126 and God said, Let us make man in our image according to our likeness and so forth.
00:27:10:17 - 00:27:46:13
Unknown
And their argument is that the image of God is only spiritual. So that's consistent with their position. And they argue, saying that the other than to say that it's physical, you know, the image of God is physical. What's interesting is you look at the Hebrew words there for image. Saleem And likeness to boot there. The image is used consistently for physical idols and the likeness is more the immaterial side.
00:27:47:00 - 00:28:14:22
Unknown
But what's clear as this is, there's nothing separate a divided here. This is the whole person. And now you read what scholars are saying about this. And I mean, like the word biblical commentary. I think of the classic Jihad von Ronde. These are famous Old Testament scholars. They are saying about the statement that the image of God is not just one thing or another.
00:28:14:22 - 00:28:37:12
Unknown
It's not just the physical aspect. It's not just the immaterial spiritual aspect. It's both the art. They say if you emphasize one above the other, that's incorrect. But to look at it collectively, holistically, the physical side, the physicality of the image of God is a part of it. Not all of it, not the major part, but it's a part of the image of God.
00:28:37:22 - 00:29:11:09
Unknown
And that's not just Adventists that are making that point. And so so there is some scriptural precedent for our position that God has some type of form. But again, it's a form of God is God, God is complex and and we can't speculate about the nature of his being except that that it's it's above our our comprehension. And then on verse and chapter two over 17 work, this is where the key verse is.
00:29:11:09 - 00:29:40:14
Unknown
I listen that, that Colleen uses, Colleen Tinker uses and others use to say that man has a spiritual nature and to describe spiritual death. You know, for the 217 in Genesis four, in the day that you eat from it, you will surely die. They didn't die physically, but they died spiritually. And then they argue against them quite by saying death began slowly.
00:29:40:14 - 00:30:26:06
Unknown
It was a process. But you look at the Hebrew and the statement you will surely die is a legal statement that shows up later in the Old Testament. It's used repeatedly for it. It's a declaration, a condemnation that death will occur. It will eventually occur. In other words, you're still living, but you're essentially dead. And and most commentaries I read I mean, a host of Old Testament commentaries that the heavier exegetical commentaries and there's a significant some of the major commentaries are in agreement that this death began but didn't reach its actual physical termination until later for Adam and Eve.
00:30:26:14 - 00:30:56:03
Unknown
And so the idea that they died spiritually is just not in the minds of Hebrew scholars who understand the Hebraic way of thinking, the holistic way of thinking. So so in other words, there is there is a precedent for what we believe. But I think what is strongest here and I'm going to I'm going to go faster, guys, I don't want to take too long, but I way to get in trouble by the bus for first Corinthians 15, just because they aren't used to doing these solo type things.
00:30:56:03 - 00:31:21:12
Unknown
I'm just getting into podcasting and and Michael was telling me, you know, and Matthew, this is a conversation, not a monologue. I got it and I'm going to hurry up so we can have keep having a conversation. But you go to first Corinthians 15 and and an accusation is made. That ad vanished because we believe in don't believe in an immortal so that when you die we believe like the atheist, you're gone, you know.
00:31:22:02 - 00:31:45:06
Unknown
But the breath goes back to God the Hebrew there that the idea is that the the spark of life goes back to God. God still has a memory of his people, and he holds that in his heart or wherever, until the resurrection life does it come until the resurrection. And that is so clear. In first Corinthians 15, we had Vince talk about the state of the dead.
00:31:45:06 - 00:32:06:05
Unknown
It's really the state of the resurrection. And Paul argues here about the I won't get into all of the context, but this is part of the gospel he describes in verses three and four and he's he's describing what the resurrection body is going to be like if he comes to the consummation of his argument here. And he's doing that for a reason.
00:32:06:05 - 00:32:35:11
Unknown
I will take time to get into the context verse 44, he says, It is song because he's contrasting our bodies now with the resurrected body. He says, Our physical, physical body is now. It's so in a natural body. It's raised a spiritual body, and by spiritual body he means a spirit field. Actual real body that is life eternal is not going to be some disembodied spirit floating on clouds, as they say.
00:32:35:11 - 00:33:02:19
Unknown
It's going to be a real life experience. So the idea that there's some immortal soul that's going to be floating around and then reinserted with the body, you just don't find that in Scripture at all. It's platonic dualism versus biblical holism. And if you read Scripture carefully, Adventists understand it to teach biblical holism. And that does not make God a total physical being.
00:33:03:02 - 00:33:40:18
Unknown
But there's some aspect there. But this idea that the immortal soul lives on, I mean, that comes right out of Plato. So and the extreme that these guys are taking it, they're really taking it to a in a platonic direction, which we would believe is foreign to scripture. So and, and also just a little bit more on that and I'm a wrap it up here on the physical side of of God you know you have in Scripture these anthropomorphism God his righteous right arm and the breath of God and the eyes of God, the eyes of God.
00:33:41:02 - 00:34:06:22
Unknown
These are anthropomorphism. God does not say He has eyes and exactly like that, hands, feet and so forth. But you do find those are again answer more forces isms, anthropomorphism, which are taking human characteristics and applying it to a degree. That's what anthropomorphism or being anthropomorphic. But it's very clear in Scripture that God is localized in places like on a throne.
00:34:07:10 - 00:34:47:04
Unknown
The numerous places Isaiah six one, Ezekiel 126 and Daniel seven nine through a ten, God is on a throne. And so there's God is localized. That's not just an anthem for Morpheus, him when he's on the throne. So there's some aspects in Scripture where God can be localized. My point is, is that Adventist are not totally far off by saying that there is some physical aspect to God, but here on this thing about the resurrection for us, baby, we don't believe in the immortal soul ism, but it's cast as being non-Christian.
00:34:47:19 - 00:35:19:14
Unknown
Our hope is in the New Testament. Hope the Resurrection. Christ is the first fruits, as Paul argues in first Raytheon's 50, Christ is the first fruits, and then we come our resurrection as based on His resurrection. That's hope. That's what all the believers asleep in Christ are awaiting is the resurrection. That's Christian. You may not agree with our Immortals our idea of biblical holism, but it certainly is Christian.
00:35:19:14 - 00:35:39:21
Unknown
To cast it as non-Christian is what is so unfair. And one final word. I just thought about this. Sorry, Matthew. The heart we this we do believe in the spiritual nature, but that's the biblical concept of the heart. And the heart is not like we say today, the head, the intellect, the heart, the emotions, the biblical concept of heart, trust of the Lord with all your heart.
00:35:40:03 - 00:36:00:04
Unknown
That's the seed of spiritual activity, That's the intellect, the thoughts, that's the emotions, that's the volition, the choosing, the decisions, the inner person. That's where God meets us. That's where our spirituality is. But it's a part of the whole person. But there's no question that we believe in the spiritual side of human beings. Okay, I'm done. You feel better now?
00:36:01:01 - 00:36:22:03
Unknown
Yeah, I believe I got that. Got that off my chest. You know, I want to reiterate something that you said we're not expecting. If you're if you're listening, you're not in the evidence. We're not expecting you to be persuaded by this. But we want you to understand we want you to understand how we're reasoning in arriving at the conclusions that we're arriving at.
00:36:22:12 - 00:36:52:10
Unknown
You saw Dr. Lake there wrestling with the biblical text. It's not something where evidence just sat around and said, We're too lazy to read the Bible. Ellen, but you have a vision and tell us what to believe. You know, I think there's this there's there's a degree of slander out there with this accusation that we just kind of got everything from Ellen White and that we just the Bible is just kind of a fig leaf for us, that we just pretend to be Sola Scriptura Christians.
00:36:53:05 - 00:37:20:20
Unknown
And we're really getting everything from Ellen White and undoubtedly Ellen White was hugely influential, influential especially in the formation of evidence culture. That's where I think she she really made an impact in terms of, you know, and this in terms of the the kind of the rationalism in Advent ism, the things we do and don't do. She was very influential there, but it's not so much theologically.
00:37:21:06 - 00:37:41:03
Unknown
Are there some interpretations of the Bible that having us pull from Ellen White or who are influenced by Ellen White? And, you know, sure, she helped us kind of you know, the idea of the Sunday law, I think, is something you can find in the Bible and ongoing going a little bit off field here. But the particulars of it, yes, Ellen White did contribute to that.
00:37:41:03 - 00:38:18:02
Unknown
Right. But the main idea is you can find Revelation 13, but like I said, it's not that you have to agree with the evidence, interpretation and everything. It's just to understand that we're reasoning from the scriptures here as as our source for what we believe. Absolutely. And that's that's the point. That is the point. Thank you. So, you know, returning to that clip we played about an hour ago about anti Trinitarian ism in Advent ism, you know, she Colleen concludes by saying everything about the way Advent ism sees reality is shifted because they don't believe in spirit and they don't believe God is truly triune.
00:38:18:15 - 00:38:37:07
Unknown
They don't believe Jesus is God. That is what she's saying. And all of that is just false. I mean, all of it is just I don't know what else to say about it. We absolutely do believe Jesus is God. It's in our fundamental beliefs. It's the way I've always been raised as an offense. It's the way I'm sure you guys are going to say, You've been raised as I have.
00:38:37:07 - 00:38:59:03
Unknown
And it's like, I mean, I don't know what else to say. It's like that old trap where you say, Michael, when did you stop beating your wife? You know, where it's kind of like, where is this this question? It's it's just where is that even coming from? I don't understand, because it's not the advent ism I grew up with.
00:38:59:03 - 00:39:15:20
Unknown
Now I want to move us along a little bit here. We've we've got one other clip from then that we want to play. It's related to this first one. This is a this is the physicality of God as doctor now is a relatively new claim, but this next one, not so new. This one's been around for a little while.
00:39:16:06 - 00:39:48:06
Unknown
Here it is because of Ellen White's teaching on the investigative judgment advent ism had always believed, and I have to say still does officially teach that Christ's atonement was not completed on the cross. So how were they going to convince Walter Martin that they were orthodox? Well, they they used a clever way of defining it. They said that Jesus's death was the sacrificial provision provided, but that he applied.
00:39:48:06 - 00:40:13:02
Unknown
Is it in heaven? And they were ordered it in a way so that Christians would think, well, sure, Jesus is our high priest and have been. So everything he accomplished is being for us as believers. That's how they understood. They worded it so that Walter Martin would see it that way. In reality, they were hiding the fact that that they didn't believe that the entire Atonement was completed at the Cross.
00:40:13:02 - 00:40:32:20
Unknown
Because Adventists do not believe that when you quotes accept Jesus. And I say that in quotes because for them it's a different thing from trusting and being born again. But they taught that when you accepted Jesus, then all your past sins were forgiven, but all your future sins had to be individually confessed and forgiven because of Jesus applying his blood in heaven.
00:40:33:03 - 00:41:00:12
Unknown
But they couldn't say that to Walter Martin because that's clearly heretical. Yeah, it is heretical. Well, we agree. And some Adventists believe that. And still do. Yep. But that's not that doesn't represent the teaching of the church. Exactly. It doesn't represent Avant ism that I know or what I like to describe as avenues and at its best. Look, guys, I guess what I'm sorry, finish your statement.
00:41:00:13 - 00:41:27:02
Unknown
I was just saying Adventists do fully believe in the complete atonement of Jesus Christ. Yeah, and the Prize of Calvary. So let's just put that out there. Put it out there. Yeah. And so did Ellen White. Yeah. So listen up, guys. I'm going to. I'm going to be a little bit contrary in this point because I did just hear in evidence do a debate with the former evidence and the former evidence, push the evidence to say and he said it I mean, I shouldn't say pushed.
00:41:27:02 - 00:41:55:13
Unknown
But you know he said this what you believe and the that the evidence said yes it was not completed at the cross. And so I do think there is an element here where we have not been as clear as as we ought to have been, especially pre 1950 and yeah, I'm going to explain this just very briefly. The reason why you think if you're not having an evangelical or otherwise, you're like, this should be a really easy thing to say?
00:41:55:13 - 00:42:19:00
Unknown
The answer is yes, just say yes. Why is this a hard thing? And in the short answer of that, the short answer to that question is because the evidence are trying to study the the sanctuary system, the the the Israelite cult, the more technical term. And you see how Jesus fulfilled certain feasts. We have feasts like Pentecost, we have feasts like Passover.
00:42:19:00 - 00:42:36:00
Unknown
And I think most Christians, they are very aware of the fact that Jesus fulfilled Passover when he died on the cross. Pentecost happened some weeks later than da da da da. But what they often don't realize is that there's these fall feasts in the year as well, and one of them is the Day of Atonement. It's called the Day of Atonement.
00:42:36:06 - 00:42:57:00
Unknown
All right. So if if our salvation trajectory is following the path that God outlined in these feast, we're not saying you need to keep the feast. Let me be clear about that. But just that God is kind of outlining from fall to to to a new heavens and the earth through these yearly feasts that the Israelites had to go through what it would take to bring them home.
00:42:57:11 - 00:43:20:16
Unknown
And then then we have these fall feast to right that things are going to be happening. And it being called the Day of Atonement meant that that Passover sacrifice was not the end of the year. There was this day of of of at one minute with God that we have to go through. So evidence looking at that, we're like, yes, Passover when Jesus died, like he took our sins away from us.
00:43:21:05 - 00:43:52:03
Unknown
He bore our sins, died with them and for us. And that was absolutely complete. Elamite uses the word complete, by the way, she says that, yes, she says she's quote that in a minute. Yeah. She says Christ made a full atonement, giving his life as a ransom for for us. That's what she said. The reason why evidence or sometimes muddle that up is because we're looking at the day of atonement saying, yeah, but in the Israelite economy, sin wasn't fully done away with.
00:43:52:03 - 00:44:15:04
Unknown
We had to have that scapegoat and the day of atonement be let out into the wilderness, right. Carrying the sins away from the sanctuary to die alone. And that's when sin was finally removed, like completely removed from Israel. The Passover sacrifice removes the sins from the sinner, and it's taken into that God sanctuary. They've atonement. Those sins are taken out of God's sanctuary, out into the wilderness where they die.
00:44:15:12 - 00:44:35:06
Unknown
So having us look at that and say, Yes, the Christ, death and resurrection is a complete and full atonement. But what we're recognizing is we're not at home yet. The story of salvation is not over. It didn't end after Jesus died. He woke up and he, you know, in the tomb and he woke everybody else up and we all went to heaven.
00:44:35:16 - 00:45:01:18
Unknown
That's not what happened. So clearly, the salvation story isn't over yet. Mm hmm. Well, second Corinthians 519, you know, God was reconciling the world to himself and Christ. This reconciliation is this captures this larger aspect of the atonement. But there's nothing without the cross, without the sacrifice of the lamb, nothing else would be relevant. That's that's the pivot.
00:45:02:13 - 00:45:35:20
Unknown
And that's why you I would say she made these kind of statements here. He Christ that is planted the cross between heaven and earth. And when the Father beheld the sacrifice of his son, he bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. It is enough. He said. Atonement is complete. Another place, she wrote, No language could convey the rejoicing of heaven or God's expression of satisfaction and delight in his only begotten Son as he saw the completion of the atonement.
00:45:37:03 - 00:46:03:02
Unknown
I think George Knight has put it well Adventist writer, historian, theologian George Knight, he said. It's good to think of atonement as a line rather than a duck. It's a link it's a ongoing process, but there is a dot there and that dot is the turning point, and that is the cross of Christ. That was the disguise of victory of Christ over Satan.
00:46:03:02 - 00:46:25:00
Unknown
That was the deathblow to Satan. You read Revelation 12. That's very clear. And only through that could everything else happen. His high priestly ministry has no relevance without the cross. But then, if he didn't die on the cross, there's no relevance. You know, there's no relevance for his high priest in the ministry. So those two go together. But I think you're so right, Matthew.
00:46:25:00 - 00:46:51:12
Unknown
It's it's like a process there. There there's this completed aspect of the atonement, but then there's this larger comprehensive view where God is is reconciling all things to himself. After all, does that atonement mean at one ment God and Paul brings this out where God is reconciling the entire universe, principalities and powers everything. But all of that could only be possible by what Christ did on the cross.
00:46:51:21 - 00:47:17:17
Unknown
So yes, his atonement was complete at the cross. But there's an aspect where the atonement there's a larger aspect of where everything is being reconciled through what Christ did on the cross. Yes, I want to add one more quick thing is the 1952 Bible conference you have Edward happens still and he's talking about the Everlasting Covenant. This before the whole Kyodo thing breaks down.
00:47:17:23 - 00:47:36:15
Unknown
So any of this deception kind of thing, this is in house, you know, and it's like, well, we do need to do a better job explaining the atonement. We need to explain the everlasting atonement, and that we're almost that this is a part of this same process. Christ's atonement is completed the cross, and that is what is going on here.
00:47:36:15 - 00:48:01:09
Unknown
And and so I think that's that's first of all, that's really important. The other thing is, is that because there hasn't always been confusion or there has been confusion excuse me, that that right before Christ comes was a prefatory work. You know, And then the question is, is that focused on me? That's where the last generation theology, perfectionism or is it focused on Christ If Christ's atonement is complete in the cross and it's that truly is complete, then God's people at any time don't have to stress about it.
00:48:01:09 - 00:48:19:13
Unknown
They can trust, in this instance, surrender, knowing that God will take them through those time of events. And they it doesn't to be that super stressful kind of. Yeah, we can have assurance and that's something that's important for people to understand. There have been some having us in the past. I have some older members of my church who who, you know, I don't know if I'm good enough.
00:48:20:05 - 00:48:44:06
Unknown
And I know there's been some folks who have wrestled with assurance in Advent ism that you can be confident in what Christ did in the faith you have in him being enough. And it is it is. You can have assurance that you are saved when you have faith in Christ today. So even though we're not home yet, even though this hasn't wrapped up yet, you you're saved.
00:48:44:06 - 00:49:02:23
Unknown
And this is that tension we find in the New Testament where you're saved but not yet saved. Right? You're in God's kingdom, but you're not yet in God's kingdom. We're living in that kind of tension. And the only the extent to which we're already there, we're already saved, we're already in God's kingdom is is by faith and having us believe this.
00:49:03:14 - 00:49:21:01
Unknown
And, you know, I'll be happy to talk about more if Colleen or Nikki want to want to reach out. Yeah. You know, what you just mentioned is what scholars call the already not yet between the first coming of the second coming of Christ. We already have blessings in Christ. Paul says We Colossians. We've been transferred into the kingdom.
00:49:21:01 - 00:49:44:15
Unknown
We already have those blessings, but it's not yet fully here in its reality until the second coming. And so we're in this in-between period. But we have all the spiritual blessings. We, we, we need in Christ and its assurance. We have so much assurance and hope in the power of the Spirit in all of this is through what Christ did on the cross.
00:49:45:00 - 00:50:10:06
Unknown
You know, let me just summarize here for Ellen White. The Atonement was a process and it involved different phases of Christ work, of course, with the cross being the center, but it involved incarnation is sinless life, of course, his death on the cross, his burial, his resurrection, his ascension, heavenly intercession. Second coming, final judgment. All of this is that larger process of the at one moment.
00:50:11:00 - 00:50:42:13
Unknown
But the pivotal point, the turning point is without question, the cross of Christ. That's right. I hope that this was helpful for folks. But go ahead. Can I. Are You wrapping it up. I have one more point I really feel a need to make about the Trinity. Okay. Go for it. Can I do that? Yeah, because the the it was made the point was made repeatedly that we don't embrace the Christian Orthodox view of the Trinity.
00:50:42:23 - 00:51:09:22
Unknown
Yeah. And I'm going to pull from an book by John Peckham, The Doctrine of God, who is a Adventist theologian, but there are four basic points that are the essential to Trinitarian ism. Orthodox, Biblical, Christian, Unitarianism and Adventist fit in all of these. And he summarizes this quite well. And this is a book not even published by an advanced Press published by her admits.
00:51:11:00 - 00:51:32:12
Unknown
First of all, this is the minimal training Trinity doctrine, the basic essentials of the Trinitarian doctrine. Number one, there is one and only one God. The Oneness Unity of God. Then, as a spouse, that if you read our fundamental belief too very carefully, it's there. And two, there are three united persons of the Trinity. The tri unity of God.
00:51:32:20 - 00:51:52:03
Unknown
That's the second characteristic. And three, the three persons are not numerically identical to each other. The father is not the son or spirit. The son is not the father or spirit. And the spirit is not the father or son. The distinctness of the three persons. Number four, the three persons are fully divine and thus co-equal and co eternal.
00:51:52:03 - 00:52:17:09
Unknown
The Father is God, the Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God, the full divinity of the persons. You find that in every basic Christian expression of the Trinity and Adventists believe that we have always taught that. So he says the minimal doctrine of the Trinity thus affirms one God's oneness unity to God's trinity. Three The distinctness of the three persons and for the full divinity of the persons.
00:52:18:18 - 00:52:47:21
Unknown
But there are nuances within evangelicalism, many different nuances. One of them is this debate between the generation or non generation, eternal generation of the son and the father. Yes, And a lot of evangelical theologians teach that, that while the son is still fully God, yet he's in a state of eternal generating from the father. A number of evangelicals in I unite with them are having trouble with that.
00:52:47:22 - 00:53:13:23
Unknown
Yeah, because in my view and what I've read in them their view this is while they acknowledge the full DADT of Christ, give them credit for that. It is still a subtle suborder a nation of the Son to the Father. Yeah. As a Seventh Day Adventist theologian, I cannot accept that. I do not see that one bit. The son John one one we could go on is eternal.
00:53:13:23 - 00:53:37:16
Unknown
And that's why I like about our fundamental belief. It describes the the father, the eternal father in son, the eternal Son and the spirit, the eternal spirit subordination ism. There's none of that. Yeah, it was in some of our pioneers, the seminary organism. But that is not the position of the Adventist church today. And they and Colin Code.
00:53:37:17 - 00:54:05:00
Unknown
Excuse me. Colleen. Colleen, Colleen and Nikki indicated that we even teach trophy ism. Yes. You know that tribalism is the heresy. There's three gods, not one. And they said we are unwilling to recognize that they're one in substance. You know, I had been a theologians, and I don't have any trouble saying that there when in substance it's just what does that mean?
00:54:05:08 - 00:54:26:00
Unknown
And the close I think the biblical way to express it is is the mutual indwelling. Jesus talks about this in the gospel of John, my father in our one, I'm in my father, my father is in me. The spirit is in me. I'm in the spirit. That's the mutual indwelling. That's the closest biblical expression to the substance. One in essence, one in substance.
00:54:26:06 - 00:54:49:05
Unknown
So Advent said no problem, was saying God is one in substance. In essence, in that way. Now there are anti Trinitarian among us, a small group that are are when I go back to the pioneers and resist that. And it's interesting, Matthew, and I've told you this before, we've got the anti Trinitarian behind our back saying we're a22 Trinitarian thing.
00:54:49:06 - 00:55:18:18
Unknown
We got the form rather than say we're not Trinitarian enough so we get hit by both know we're split. You know, I think we're with the evangelicals and biblical on this matter. So we reject trite theism moralism that God is one and just three manifestations of him. And then subordination ism. Now, again, I know that there are nuances of discussion in advertising on that, but, you know, you come to the only Begotten and so forth.
00:55:19:01 - 00:55:39:19
Unknown
But there's no question in my mind and and I can say this now and I'm going to in with this is that Adventist theologians and historians are doing major work on the Trinity there. There are some major works that are going to be coming out and it's addressing the anti Trinitarian ism because it's becoming more of a voice than a problem.
00:55:40:09 - 00:56:01:18
Unknown
But in addressing that, it's also going to respond to this accusation that we're not Trinitarian enough. In fact, I was just invited by the bride, the Biblical Research Institute, to contribute a chapter to a forthcoming book on the Trinity. Oh, good. Because asked it to write about Ellen White in the Holy Spirit, and I'm accepting that for sure.
00:56:01:23 - 00:56:24:08
Unknown
Be an honor to be a part of it. But that's just one book. Among other other materials that will be published dealing with our view on the Trinity. And when people read that while we don't certainly don't agree with evangelicals on everything, but in terms of those four basic essentials, we fit with the orthodox view of the Trinity.
00:56:24:10 - 00:56:50:02
Unknown
That's right. Yeah. And look, God, that that God is God and Jesus is God. The Spirit as a person and God and our Lord Jesus Christ is fully divine. Say now look what you did Volokhonsky. Look what you guys did. You made you made Dr. like preach. And so, yeah, I'm sorry. There's no, it's much for that because I think it needs it needs to be emphasized.
00:56:50:06 - 00:57:18:00
Unknown
This is not just are some something we believe on paper this is something Day Adventists believe. And as you were alluding to, there are anti Trinitarian Adventists and almost to a person they are a thorn in the side of each congregation in terms of in conference leadership and union division, leadership and GC leadership even though not they're not welcome.
00:57:18:00 - 00:57:42:01
Unknown
We're not welcoming that theology, we're not even tolerating that theology in our midst. I can I can name half a dozen people that I know or know of who have been disfellowshipped. I don't say that with relish, but who have been disfellowshipped for agitating anti Trinitarian views in evidence. Churches. And then, like you said, to turn around and listen to a podcast where we're accused of being anti Trinitarian, you know what?
00:57:42:01 - 00:58:02:13
Unknown
What planet are we? Are we living on you? I know Nikki came out of the evidence church maybe ten or 12 or 13 years ago, but Colleen has been out for 20 plus years, as I understand it. Even then, I don't know. I think she's describing a church well in some ways that never existed, but in other ways, this is from the 1950s.
00:58:02:16 - 00:58:30:19
Unknown
Yeah, I've made that claim before. Don't know the church that she's describing. Most of the time it either doesn't exist or it hasn't existed in a long time. So, you know, you get the impression that, you know, the former Adventist campaign against ad bans, It's not only about exposing what Adventists believe is wrong, but it's also almost I get the impression that they want to keep us from the gospel.
00:58:31:06 - 00:58:55:11
Unknown
They don't want us to have the gospel. If we did have the gospel. And I know they say they want to deliver Adventist and save them and so forth, but if we did have the gospel, that'd be a real problem for them. Yeah, and I believe we do have the gospel, but it's hard for them to acknowledge that because if if we do have the gospel, then they need to radically change their approach to critiquing Advent ism or they'll cease to exist.
00:58:56:06 - 00:59:21:03
Unknown
Well, that's that's a whole nother topic about about people who dedicate quote unquote, ministries towards tearing down churches. I will say this. This is the last comment I'm going to have. And then and then we can wrap it up. There's if you're an even listening to this, you might feel I hope you feel a little bit encouraged by responding to these claims.
00:59:21:21 - 00:59:44:16
Unknown
But there also needs to be some humility here for us because some the way that they that Colleen and Nicki have have treated advent ism, sometimes misrepresenting us, whether willfully or innocently, I don't know, but misreport, you know, the feeling of being misrepresented, the feeling that everything we do is wrong and. There's nothing good in Advent ism and all this kind of stuff.
00:59:45:02 - 01:00:05:14
Unknown
We need to be humble as evidence because sometimes we've talked about other churches the same way. I'm not going to name names. We know who they are, where everything that ever happens. I mean, sometimes, okay, I'll name names sometimes like the Pope comes out with a statement saying families need to spend more time together and, you know, and whatever, we're getting too busy in this modern age.
01:00:05:14 - 01:00:26:13
Unknown
And advocates will jump on that and say, see, this is all part of Sun laws, not a lot of that. We just willfully interpret everything is negative all the time. Let's not do unto others as has been done unto us. If you're feeling misunderstood or misrepresented here by this cultish podcast series on evidence, let's not do that to other people.
01:00:27:15 - 01:00:56:07
Unknown
Let's be charitable, let's let's be charitable towards other people. Let's not always the worst motives. Self reflection. Yeah, and let's let's endeavor to try to understand what other people believe. And I think this is, you know, doctor, like you quoted John Packham, I don't have access to it. I wish I did. He did a Facebook post some time ago where he said that there's an ethical value in we for you critique somebody's argument representing their argument in a way that they would agree with.
01:00:57:15 - 01:01:20:22
Unknown
Oh, there we go. And this is really important. Like when I kind of trying to restate somebody's argument, I want to restate it in a way that if they read it or heard it, they would say, yes, that accurately describes what I believe. Then go on to critique it. But but we got to be careful here not to misrepresent people, build straw men or straw women arguments and and then just burn them down because that doesn't serve anybody.
01:01:20:22 - 01:01:45:02
Unknown
It doesn't serve the body of Christ seventh Avenue for Christians. We are Christians. And that's all I'm going to say about such questions. Reach out to us. Yeah, we love dialog. Yep. And am existence at its best when Christ is at the center of it. That's right. That's right. And we certainly don't claim to be perfect. Yeah, for sure.
01:01:45:02 - 01:01:57:22
Unknown
It's been a great journey kind of going through. We're not going to spend too much more time. I think we're going to move on to other historical topics and have a just pilgrimage, but I hope it's given at least enough to show that there's more to the story, the rest of the story, not that it's a complete and final.
01:01:57:22 - 01:02:18:20
Unknown
We don't have the final word even, but we're we're on a journey ourselves, but we're trying to understand and show that there is at least there is. There's another side or more and a deeper kind of look at that, some of these kinds of things. And so we appreciate the time to be able to have Matthew and and Dr. Lake with us and great when we wrap this up.
01:02:19:03 - 01:02:41:03
Unknown
All right. Well, hey, guys, thanks again. This has been a fantastic discussion. I really hope for our listeners this has been a chance for you to if you haven't thought about any of this stuff before or if this is kind of new information, some of these these critiques of Advent ism, I hope we give a chance to kind of go through and look as much as you can, not just at what we said, but also some of the references we made and even listen to the the rest of the episodes from Cultish.
01:02:41:03 - 01:03:01:20
Unknown
The best thing we can do is give ourselves a chance to hear the criticisms fully and respond as as faithfully and as honestly as we can. So I want to thank all of the guests, Dr. Lake Matthew and my co-host Michael, for giving us a chance to really dig into this topic a little bit more. And as always, thank you again for listening to Edmund's Pilgrimage podcast.
01:03:01:20 - 01:03:40:22
Unknown
We will see you next month.