Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join online business veterans Matt Medeiros and Brian Casel as they pull back the curtain on content marketing to build successful media brands. In this unfiltered limited series podcast, Matt and Brian share hard-won insights into leveraging content creation for creative fulfillment and profit.
Whether you want to turn your indie blog into a real business or supplement a SaaS startup with an engaged community, you’ll come away with specific tactical advice on improving your content marketing game. From podcasting and YouTube best practices to balancing quality vs scale, they tackle the real-world tradeoffs around delivering great content week after week.
With over 20 years combined experience building audiences and revenue through savvy content marketing, Matt and Brian speak with hard-earned authority on the hows and whys of content production today. Their candid conversations, genuine chemistry, and actionable tips make Breaking Content the favorite podcast hour each month for any enterprising creator looking to build a thriving media company.
Pay podcast listener
before we get started.
I just wanted to forewarn you that
the audio on my side is not very
good because I forgot to plug in my
microphone when I recorded with Brian.
Yes.
Uh, season 12 year plus podcaster
makes mistakes from time to time.
I threw the world's weight
in AI processing at it.
I don't know how good it
did, but, uh, it's making it.
Decent.
Anyway, some surprises in this episode.
Thanks for listening.
Matt: We're back breaking content.
Brian, it's been a while.
How you doing?
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah, been a little while.
yeah, doing good, Matt.
I'm, I'm back from a couple trips.
I've had, I've had some weird
health issues that I've been
battling, but I'm, I think I'm on
the, on the other side of that now.
And just getting back
in the swing of things.
Matt: last time we chatted, we were
sort of going our separate ways on
focusing the, one of the tasks that I
was working on was, you know, really
getting focused on, using LinkedIn
a little bit more to drive traffic.
We had a bit of a therapy
session on both sides.
My therapy session was should
I continue to do this content?
You were just getting started
with publishing your first
few videos to YouTube.
So we'll catch the listeners up
on that and then we have another
special surprise that we'll chat
about roughly halfway through.
I'll kick it off with the LinkedIn
stuff that I was working on.
It's been, it's been working and I
haven't really ever focused in or dialed
in on LinkedIn as much as I have here
in the last, you know, month or so.
I've been just looking
at my, I use Fathom.
from my website stats, and there is
a definite uptick in the incoming
traffic to the WP minute through
LinkedIn as a refer much more so than
it has been for the previous months.
And then LinkedIn sort of gives you this,
I don't know, boost of encouragement.
It tells you, which I'm sure
everyone listening to this who
uses LinkedIn has seen, but it
will tell you in your updates.
The impressions, and the comments
and, you know, just your weekly reach.
I think I get an email about that,
you know, and it's up like 9,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
are you doing on
Matt: percent because I'm
actually using it now.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
just, are you just posting your, like
your latest content from WP Minute?
Matt: Yeah, I am, and I'm just putting
a much more personal message in it.
or for it on LinkedIn.
Stuff I don't do on Twitter as much.
The Twitter engagement is just awful.
Awful.
And, you know, it's I think we
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3: And
on LinkedIn it's a bit more long form, or?
Matt: I mean, for me anyway, like,
long form for me on LinkedIn is
like three to four paragraphs.
Like I open.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
that's like still like a normal post
that people would do on LinkedIn.
It's not like Twitter where, even
though they have longer posts
now, people still do short tweets
Matt: Yeah.
but I'm just getting and I'm not
like putting this stuff in an Excel
spreadsheet or anything like that.
And really measuring it.
But I mean, people are engaging more.
They're talking.
They're leaving comments more
much more than, you know, across
the board on on Twitter and
yeah, it's really been working.
I just feel like I don't want to be.
This is my problem with
all social media is.
I start to say, well, I don't
want to be just another person
pitching things on social media.
How can I make this experience on just
LinkedIn a little bit more special?
Like with Twitter, like you get to
really know who I am, what I do, and
you know, there's a personality there
that I think people know and understand
where it might be less so in LinkedIn
because it's a mixture of, you know,
local professionals that I know and
then my friends on the internet,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah, that's what I, that's what I want
to know is like, all right, is there,
there's probably a difference in the,
like the, the people or the types of
people that it's probably people, people
that probably never see your Twitter
stuff because they're not Twitter people.
They're LinkedIn people.
Matt: Yeah, and, so I've been trying to,
bridge that, bridge that gap a little
bit because I still do get, you know,
again, local community having, you
know, run an agency locally and a car
dealership for that and just being, you
know, more present in my local community
over the last, you know, 15, 20 years.
it was weird for me to go and start
using LinkedIn a lot for my WordPress and
the podcasting stuff that I talk about.
Oh, Gravity Forms WordPress Podcasting.
those are the three main silos
of things that I'm talking about.
And something
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Do you find it's people who are like
really, engaged in those things?
Like they
Matt: Oh, yeah.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
either they are podcasters or
they are running WordPress sites.
Matt: I feel like LinkedIn does a much
better job at At hitting, yeah, at, way,
and I think that might be the actual,
like in the back of my head, I feel like
I'm, what is it when you're not ghosted?
what is it when you're pulled out of, you,
when you're pulled out of the algorithm
and people don't see you as much?
Yeah,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I know what you're talking about.
Yeah, there's, there's
like a, a word for that.
I forgot what it
Matt: there's a word for it.
I can't think of it right now, but
I really think Twitter doesn't know
what to do with me algorithmically.
Because I do talk about WordPress.
I do talk about podcasting
in two very different ways.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
This is my, that's been my biggest
complaint of, of using Twitter and it's,
but I still, Twitter is still the only one
that I ever actually use on a daily basis.
I really don't use anything else.
Nowhere near as frequently
as I'm on Twitter.
so I don't know, maybe I should, I
really probably should get into LinkedIn.
I haven't touched it in years.
I tried to get into threads,
but it's just not sticking.
It just feels like there's
not enough people there yet.
I never touch Facebook.
But with Twitter, yeah, the
thing that I've always wanted on
Twitter is like some way to sub
sub group my father for followers.
So if I could, if I could say you could
subscribe, you could follow me on Twitter.
But sometimes I talk about
politics, or sometimes I talk about
technical
web programming, or sometimes I'm
talking about bootstrapping in business.
And if you, and if, and if you are
into prop politics, and you want to
hear my opinions on that, subscribe
to, to my politics type tweets.
And, and then, and then I know that
if I'm ever doing some, any sort of
political rant, only the people who
are
actually interested in that are
going to see it, you know, and I'm
not going to annoy the, the people
who want to tune politics out.
You know, not that I and that's actually
why I almost never tweet about politics.
It's because I know most people
don't want to hear about it.
you know, or like, or like
New York sports, right?
there's so much I want to tweet,
Matt: I
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
but I know that, yeah, like 99 percent
of Twitter does not want to hear
me talk about the Knicks, you know?
so
Matt: So I started to think about.
So.
So there's that like that experiment.
of uncovering new social media, investing
in it, at least from what I'm doing
right now, I'm definitely seeing a
positive with, and spending a little
bit of time, a little extra time.
It's all it is a little extra time of
I'm not running it through chat GPT.
I'm just, here's the hook
and here's the summary.
Here's the value, you know,
and I'm the only, and the other
thing that I'm doing is like.
Air quotes strategy is I don't
link it in the original post.
I put the link in the comments.
Why do I do that?
I don't know because I see
other people do it, right?
So
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah.
And I wonder if LinkedIn, because
that's the other thing that's really
annoying about Twitter is that it's,
it's like a known fact now that
if your tweet has a link in it,
it's going to be demoted, right?
Like they just, they just downplay
links for whatever reason.
I, I wonder if that's
the case on LinkedIn.
Matt: they even downplay Twitter.
They even downplay video.
Like I'll do a three text, a
three sentence text update,
like whatever it is I'm doing.
I'm either showing you something
in podcast world, WordPress
world, gravity forms world.
I'll write a little paragraph
and I'll upload a video.
And then I'll put the rest of it in
like the thread of whatever, I'll tag.
I won't even tag Gravity Forms,
I won't tag my own website.
And even the videos don't,
you know, I'm talking like two
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I have noticed that about videos.
I think that images tend to do
better on, on Twitter though.
They seem to promote.
I mean, you know, there's
no like hard and fast rule.
It, it, yeah.
It's not going to, it's not
if you put an image on every
tweet, it's going to do better.
But I do notice that, and this
could just be people's behavior to
like people just might react faster
and easier when they see an image
rather than having to read the text.
But, yeah,
Matt: So I did another
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I, but yeah, that, that like
concept of and this has been,
I've had this like in theory for,
for months, years at this point.
And I've never been able to actually
put it into practice, which is yeah.
Every week I want to have, a big new
post, whether that be a video or a
newsletter, and then I want to turn
that into X number of tweets and
linkedin posts and whatever else.
and it never works that way.
I, you know, I just,
Matt: has always been, you
know, reactionary to me, for me.
Like dynamic and reactionary.
I don't know, and I'm
sure you've had this.
Discussion with others.
And, you know, I, I know when I left
my, my last job in podcasting, I
talked to other, like podcast hosting
companies, you know, interviewing me
or whatever, like for these roles.
And even afterwards, people, you
know, not to toot my own horn, but
people were like, Hey, you know,
are you, you looking for a job?
We'd love to have you, like social media.
And just too many people look at this
stuff as a task and I get it, I get
it like I get that you want to like
optimize and you want efficiency and
you think about the content marketing
wheel and you start with the cornerstone
content, you slice and dice it and
then you broadcast it everywhere,
but the best social media YouTube.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
it's like personality.
Matt: the best way you're going to
get represented on social media is
personality and somebody who's living
and breathing that industry and that
customer mindset for your brand.
I don't know how the hell else you'll
do it effectively, because at the end
of the day, you're going to, a year
is going to go by, you're going to
look at a spreadsheet, and it's going
to say you had 13, 000 impressions,
and you're not going to be happy.
Right, so having somebody in
the seat that is experienced and
good at this stuff is, is tough.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
For sure.
Matt: I did some,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah.
I mean, I, I don't know.
I, I, I, I do still want to, I
want to produce and publish more
content this year, but I haven't
been able to actually do it yet.
That's been a, that's been a big,
challenge, just literally, time in the
day and energy wise, Most of my tweets
and part of the thing is like when I
don't tweet very often, it's usually
because I just have these like quick,
not even half formed thoughts of, of, of
some thing I want to share and then I'm
just like, I haven't thought that through
enough and I'm just not going to tweet it.
And then that's it.
Um, and, and then I'm just quiet tweets.
More, more weeks at a time,
Matt: for more weeks.
so I did something else from
our last time that we connected.
I, I won't say the, the person's name
because it wasn't a negative experience.
It was just a very flat experience.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
let's call him out.
Come on.
Matt: I'll tell you off, off air.
YouTuber, very good size
audience, helps other YouTubers.
Has an offer to, sit, sit
with him on a one on one.
it was 300 bucks for 30 minutes.
Now, I've been doing YouTube since 2010.
I'm not like, brand new to this
stuff, but I always have questions
like, should I be tagging?
Should I be doing SEO?
Should I be doing this?
You know, all these things
run through your head.
And I know at the end of the day is,
for YouTube, it's creating more content.
That's just what that machine wants.
And I hate it.
I hate it because of that.
But I also know that that's how it works.
So whatever.
Set up the time.
It's all, you know, I go sign up, get the
automated emails, you know, he has this
process where it says, Hey, share your
stats with me, through Google's account
settings, share your stats with me.
That way I can go and dive
in and look at your stats.
So man, I'm sitting there ready.
Like this is, this is great professional.
This is 600 an hour.
this is what I expect.
Right.
You know, so he's going to look
at my stats, let's get into it.
Hey, then he's 10 minutes late, you
know, you know, to the, to the call
and I'm messaging him trying to be
like, okay, I get it sending the
DMS and I'm replying to an email.
I'm not getting
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
And does he really need to be
invited to your Google analytics?
You can't just show him or
Matt: Yeah.
I mean, but I actually like,
I was like, Hey, this is cool
because now you'll, you'll look at
this stuff prior to the meeting.
And that's kind of what I
expect for 600 bucks an hour.
Like you're ready to go.
I'm ready to go.
We're professionals.
Let's do this.
And then he like shows, you
know, a couple, whatever.
Yeah.
you know, 10 minutes late, a couple
of excuses, automation, yada, yada.
So we just dive in and he's just okay,
where do you want, where do you want help?
so I kind of like tell him, you know
what I'm looking for him like, Hey,
I know this is a therapy session,
but I need here's my competitors.
Here's how they're growing.
Here's how I'm not growing, like where
you think I'm like really missing the gap.
But the short of it is he didn't
even look at my account dashboard.
And it was everything I've always
heard him say in his videos.
It was the same thing.
It was thumbnail,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
of a personalized thing should be like,
he should be asking you questions so that
he can give you personalized feedback.
Matt: So it was just one of those
things where it was like, never
meet your heroes kind of moment,
especially when you're paying for it.
and, you know, I mean, he, what it
was, was he did you know, hey, Don't
worry so much about the, you know,
SEO in the description tagging.
you know, all this other stuff, which
was good because at least that silenced
that part of my brain a little bit.
Cause that's always like on my mind,
you know, but then it was kind of like,
well, look, you know, we pulled up one
of my competitors and I was just like,
well, you know, that your competitors
thumbnails are better than yours.
And I was like, that was at that moment
where I was just like, no, I was like,
nah, it's not like his thumbnails aren't.
Blowing my thumbnails away.
this is, I'm like, I think that
that's kind of not really anyway.
So we moved on and, and then it got
like towards, like towards the end.
I'm like, all right, well,
I have another question.
So this is like 20 minutes in.
So I was like, all right.
So I got one more question on the
technical and like audience retention.
you know, how important is that?
And then he said something like,
oh, he's like, all right, yeah,
just like one or two more questions
and then we got to wrap it up.
I'm just like, I just man,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
like, why are you even offering
Matt: yeah, like if, if, if I was
doing a 300, for 30 minutes, I would
probably give that person an hour
as long as they're not a maniac.
You know, it's as long as you're
not crazy and you're not like,
this is not a weird thing.
I'm giving you an hour.
I'm not like boom, boom, 30 minutes.
And then as we,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
thing.
I, I mean, I've, I've dabbled in
some coaching, some of it recently.
And then others going back
a couple of years ago, I was
doing that with productize.
I always, if I do any sort of
coaching, I really spend, first
of all, half an hour is like too
short in my opinion for anything.
I feel like you, you can't even do
it unless it's like an hour, because
a half, cause, cause I, I spent the
first 20 minutes just asking questions.
You know, and then and then the rest
of it is okay, now that I understand
where you're coming from and you're
and sometimes just there's just
the act of asking the questions
asking hard questions is like.
That's part of the value.
It's like somebody, somebody kind of like
grilling you on hard questions, right?
But it's also a way for me to get an
understanding of where you're coming from.
And then I can spend 30, 40
minutes, giving my thoughts on it.
The other, the other thing I used to
do years ago was website teardowns.
And this was totally async,
where the person would send me.
I think just, I think it was
like, they just sent me the, their
website and I would record like
a 15 minute, 15, 20 minute first
reaction walkthrough of their website.
And it's totally me looking at their
website and giving them feedback.
And, and that was that.
and then recently I was doing, I, I sort
of stopped this for now, but I, doing
some like product strategy coaching where
We'd start with a big one question, we
would sort of go back and forth for a
half an hour, and then we would have
async follow up for three or four days.
and, and that would be like a one time
price, but it's ask one big question.
I give you my big feedback.
And then we have a, there's always
going to be like, oh, all right.
So now that you've given me
that feedback, I've got 1 or 2
follow up questions off of that.
Let's, let's cover those
in the next 3, 4 days.
And then we wrap it up.
Matt: Yeah.
And you know, basically
what that whole, Oh yeah.
So then, then like the kicker was, it
was like, he had a, whether he rehearsed
it or it wasn't in front of him, he had
a two minute, like outro of Fill out
this survey on G2 or whatever it was.
Like if you're really, you know,
happy with this consultation,
fill out this survey.
And oh, by the way, like I also
have if you want to get my, if
you want to get like my starter
pack, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like you can get it
now for 50 percent off.
I really appreciate the time
we spent together today.
Yada, yada, yada.
And I was just like, ah, right, dude.
God, it was just.
Such a deflating experience.
And, you know, I still really appreciate
his content, but it did two things.
One, it encouraged me to
have the same kind of offer.
Well, the first part it was, what
it did is it made me realize like on
YouTube anyway, the upload cadence,
the thumbnail, the title, and once the
algorithm knows you for a specific thing.
Like you kind of lean into that until you
start maybe shifting the algorithm again.
And for me, it's that like right now
anyway, I'm living in the 2024 theme,
which is the default theme for WordPress.
That's where I'm getting a lot
of traffic and I can understand
that I can double down on that.
And that's what he was telling me.
He's you, he's you got to make
12 videos on 2024 and it's just
going to compound and you're just
going to see like massive growth.
And I don't think he's wrong with
that because I've seen him do that.
So that kind of put that frame
that for me and then two is
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah, I feel like the thing
with the, with the, yeah.
Publishing frequently on YouTube.
I don't think that it's the, it's the
act of frequently publishing on YouTube.
that, that does it's, it's by, by
publishing frequently, you're covering
lots of topics and then you can see
which ones hit and then you can go do
more of those like the 24 or theme,
you know, it's, it's more of that,
like you gets you into the habit
of publishing and, and that's been,
that's been a big challenge for me.
I'm just trying to.
Yeah.
Get into the I'm trying to figure out
the systems to outsource editing so that
I can publish more and that's been a
huge pain Maybe we can get into that but
Matt: so put that it sort of ease that
and bolstered me on that side of it.
And then two is like just coming
up with a similar offering.
because one, yeah,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
so you're offering now is basically
its membership and its sponsors
Matt: so it's membership and
sponsors for the content and
then it's Google ads, which is.
You know, whatever.
It's just a few hundred, a few hundred
bucks a month that comes in on that
until, you know, views go up, et cetera.
But, training and education is,
is something that will always, has
always existed, existed in WordPress.
And it's something that I think is still
going to be like a thing that is still
needed for, you know, years to come.
Especially as WordPress changes
dramatically, the admin's going to change.
The way we're building these sites
are going to change and having that
as, as a product, or a service is
something that I'm also interested in
because that's something that I can,
you know, really sink my teeth into
and I think could be a moneymaker
for, you know, for the business and
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Like personalized training or like
Matt: either personalized or,
Either personalized or like
a more corporate setting.
I think, I got paid really well when I ran
my agency actually by, Rutgers University.
we went down there a few times, to train
their staff on just how to build pages.
And they paid us a lot of money.
They paid us a lot of money to just
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah, like corporate workshops kind
Matt: And it was, and back
then they were using like.
WP bakery or whatever it was before that
I can't remember the name of it page
builder like before page builders were a
thing it was like what they were building
was just like a complete disaster but
they wanted us to show them how to do it
the way they had it and we did and we got
paid really well for it so that's a thing
and with the YouTube content like that's
where because that's how I see my YouTube
is is tutorials and education and then.
The news product is for like
the 1 percent of wordpressers.
That's the sponsors of Pressable,
Bluehost, you know, OmniSend.
Those are the folks that really want
to support that kind of content.
And then on the YouTube side, it's
how do I use this wordpress thing?
And if I just land in front of the
right folks who want to get educated,
through one on one calls or a corporate
environment, corporate environment
with air quotes, that's something
that's really interesting to me.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
yeah, I like that I could see that I
guess that working well because it's
Matt: And I need to figure
out how to use Clarity
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
be like a lead
Matt: yeah, and I want to, my next step
literally, right now I just have a Gravity
Forms to, to book a time, I literally
only have one call to action that went
out the other day, but I want to set it up
through, through Clarity Flow so that I,
that I can serve more at scale, basically.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Totally.
I mean, that's, I mean, not to
promote my own product here,
but I, but I will anyway.
The, the, I mean, I use,
I use it for asynchronous.
What happens is I push almost
everything to asynchronous.
And because I'm right now, I'm doing
a consulting project with a company.
it's like a two week sprint.
I've been doing these where it's two
weeks and I help you strategize and
plan a big new product or a big new
feature in your product and, and I kick
it off with a live call on on day one.
But then the rest of the two weeks,
it's just like all asynchronous.
Like me going and thinking and writing
stuff up a notion and then sending them a
video on here's what I think about this.
And here's some questions for you.
And then they send it back to me.
And then we go back and forth a sink.
And I think what quickly happens
is, they start to realize,
I, and I firmly believe this.
And I, and I think that clients see
this pretty quickly is It's actually
more useful, more productive, higher
quality back and forth when it's
async versus being live, like live
is good for like a kickoff call.
Maybe a welcome or maybe a sales
call or something like that.
But once you're in the engagement and
you're getting it and you're digging
into the details, the asynchronous
aspect is it's not just that it's more
convenient, it's It's, I have space to
go think about it and prepare my thoughts
and write up some notes and then send
you a tight five minute thing of here,
here, what do you think about this?
And then they can go digest
it, think about it, sleep on
it and then come back to me.
You know, like that's such a
more productive way of going
back and forth on the details.
I find,
Matt: Do you ever feel like, how
do you bridge the, urgency gap?
don't send me anything
urgent through this.
Like, how do you bridge that gap at all?
Does that ever come up?
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
well, in this engagement, yeah.
And most of the engagements, it's like,
we're working on one project, so it's
not like I'm here to give you generalized
support on whatever might come up.
It's more like you brought me in to for 1
specific goal, and we're going to work on
Matt: Got it.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
for 2 or 3 weeks.
Um, so, so it's almost in both of
our best interests to, let's take
our time and think through to make
every every video sort of count.
Or every message sort of
like, let's, let's move the
ball forward toward our goal.
At the end of this 2 weeks, we
want to have a clear plan in
place for what we're building.
but I do, I do experience some of that,
with my team, right now, I'm going back
and forth with my assistant and trying
to, this could be like, probably a whole
other episode of this podcast is Trying
to get her set up to be able to edit
my videos on on my YouTube videos, but
just the setup getting her to get access
to the right Dropbox folder and sharing
DaVinci Resolve projects and all this
crap is literally, it's literally taking
us like 2 weeks just to get her to be
able to open up a project and edit it.
and there's lots of fast, like, all right,
wait, are you seeing this on your screen?
I'm seeing it on my screen, like.
You know, and we're in two completely
different time zones, and she's on
Windows, and I'm on Mac, and it's it's
just been so that's where, throughout
one day, we'll have a lot of fast back
and forth messages on clarity flow,
sometimes within within minutes or
within an hour or so, but those are
just like quick to teammates working
together on something, you know,
Matt: And you wanted to go
just to, let me just bookend
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
then, sometimes, even even then,
it's like, it's still better than,
hopping on a call, because, right,
literally right now, as we speak.
Me and Aaliyah are in the middle of trying
to figure out this big technical problem.
But at two o'clock, I had a call with you.
So it's I probably have a message
from her, waiting in my inbox now,
and I'll get back to her later.
You know, there's no urgency.
It's just like we, we go back and forth
every 15 minutes for a couple hours.
And then and then 1 of us gets busy.
Maybe she goes to dinner or I
go into a call or something.
And then and then, you know, then then
suddenly there's like a delay and then
and then we're kind of back at it.
And it's, You know, and she's literally
like on the other side of the world.
So, we, we, we expect there's going
to be like these random delays that
come up and that's just part of
the, part of the dynamic, you know?
Matt: So, I'll bookend, that's, those
are my updates, those are the things
I'm, you know, I've gone through.
We'll transition to you because
we've buried the lead a bit about the
limited series of breaking content.
So, we'll transition to some
of the stuff you're working on.
But let me just throw
a monkey wrench at you.
Did you not want to use, I
mean, I know you were heavily
invested in DaVinci Resolve.
You probably like it from like the
effects and color grading workflow.
But if you use an app like Descript,
then you'd actually have native
collaboration built right in.
The file is just shared and she can edit.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3: I
think she and I both have become really
frustrated with Descript and we've
stopped using it, even on podcasts.
I think, I don't think it's great
for, I know that it can do video
and stuff, but it's not, it's not
like a professional video editor,
for YouTube videos and stuff.
But then.
I thought that I was going to use
it for a while, but honestly, like
Descript, I don't know how much I know.
I know you're a big Descript guy, but I
find it incredibly buggy and slow to to,
open up and start projects to a point
where it's it took so long to, load this,
30 minute podcast conversation that that
resulted in, shifting the whole time,
the whole thing by By 20 seconds, and
then that screwed up the whole thing.
And then, I love it in theory,
especially editing the text file
edits the video or edits the audio.
I love that concept.
But, yeah, no, it's, it's
just not going to work.
Matt: Yeah, I mean it, you have to
be really dialed in with knowing
what you want out of Descript.
and I am 100 percent there with you.
Like it's not, you know, I did a pretty
in depth edit for what I normally do for
YouTube on DaVinci Resolve the other day.
Tiles, transitions, sound effects,
just operating the timeline alone
in DaVinci Resolve is way faster
and more efficient than Descript.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
and I got good with the
Matt: Keyboard
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I customized some keyboard shortcuts on
the, on video editing in, in resolve.
And then, and then I have some like text
titles that fly in and some audio, some,
some, some like audio effect, you know,
whoosh sound effects and stuff like that.
Um, um, you know, I, I did, I did
start to look at like other options
because I'm, I am finding it really
difficult to share a project with
an editor using DaVinci resolve.
Matt: Yeah.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
and so they're on DaVinci Resolve
version 18 and with the version 18,
like their big new feature is this
like cloud collaboration feature.
It's like they're basically their
version of what Descript has.
It's like a supposed to be a pretty
slick, like cloud based, like
collaborate with other people.
And I tried it out and
it just did not work.
Like the thing that that their demo
thing is showing me like I'm trying
it and no, it doesn't, it doesn't
function the way that you it's just,
it's a version one really more like
a beta, cloud feature and I tried it.
I banged my head against the desk and I
was like, this is just not going to work.
So instead, I'm still
resorting to a Dropbox based
approach to sharing projects.
And that, too, has been a huge headache.
yeah, like sharing the sharing the
Dropbox folder and then DaVinci has
its own sort of like project database
system, which is like different from an
actual folder on your on your computer.
And yeah, it's a it's it's tough.
And I actually had a tweet
about this the other day.
I was like, somebody should really.
And I've I've seen all the YouTube
videos that try to cover on how to,
collaborate with a with a remote editor,
and none of them really cover it well.
And none of them get into the nuance that
you have to figure out, but there are
so many little problems, like somebody
should come out with a course or a
guide or a really good YouTube video
on this, and it's not going to be me
because we're having trouble with it.
but the,
Matt: Can't solve
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
somebody should cover like how,
because, because video editing, it's,
it's easy to outsource anything, but
video editing is especially difficult
to outsource technically, you know,
because, because the files are so big.
Matt: I saw you tweeting
about it the other day.
Yeah, about finding one
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
that's the thing.
It's it's not just so and there's so
many little problems with it because
most, most remote video editors, they are
freelancers, so they probably have their
own Dropbox account and they've got other
clients and they've got their own stuff.
I have a Dropbox account and I need to be
able to share this huge, each individual
video project is going to have multiple
gigabytes of media files to share.
I got to make sure that, A, we could
actually share the project and both access
the project and I can go back into it
and make more edits after she's done.
But also, I need to make sure that I'm
not going to, overload her computer
and her storage with my stuff.
And and she can't be paying for drop off.
it's my project.
So I need to be paying for all this story.
Not her.
it's just such a mess, you
Matt: yeah, I mean, I think
for freelancers, they're
just dealing with raw files.
So hey, Mr.
Mrs.
Customer, you just send me your footage.
I do the rest.
They're not, they're not
trying to collaborate across a
DaVinci project where you are.
And that's really where probably
the crux of this comes in.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
because that's the thing.
That's what I want to do with
with any video editor is like,
I, I will give her the raw stuff.
To start it off and then she
will do all the all the cuts.
That's like the most time consuming part
is like cut like cut up like turn my
25 minute footage of me sitting at the
desk talking about something like cut
it down to 8 minutes, you know, cut out
all all my bad takes and and do all the
all the cuts get that taken care of.
And then, and then she can, put in the
titles, but then I can go in at the end
and maybe, we need a screencast to cover
this part, or we need to, you know,
or I need to make some final edits.
I should be able to go into the
project and, finish it up, you know.
Matt: We have about 18, we
have about 18 minutes left.
I want to frame it up.
This is going to be the
last episode that we do.
You messaged me and said, Hey, I don't
think I have the bandwidth for this.
We both, we both truly don't.
We both truly don't.
and you, you obviously
have a lot going on.
You have the software business, and
then you have this new business.
And you're doing a
little bit of consulting.
We've been doing this
in one hour increments.
We're going to let this episode go
out, We've been doing it in one hour
increments and then slicing it up
into two episodes for the month.
two thirty minute parts.
We'll let this run as, the full
episode through, through this episode.
I'd imagine you did some, exploration,
some internal thinking and said I've
really got to dial in on the stuff
that I have in front of me now so
that you can be as successful as
possible with those few things at hand.
Fair statement?
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I'm, I'm trying to do that there.
There's still going to be.
So I just came back from 2 trips,
which are a big snow tiny comp.
I call them.
they're sort of like mastermind
trips with with a lot with
a bunch of founder friends.
We go skiing and snowboarding
and we talk about business and.
It's a good like annual retreat
where I spend some time and get
feedback, but also do some thinking
on what are the priorities?
in some ways, like my priorities haven't
changed a whole lot, but in other ways.
They sort of are.
So I am, I, I, I am still interested
in growing my YouTube channel and, and
doing more content this year for sure.
But I think that before the trips, like
in the, in the, during the, the previous
episodes we were doing, I was much
more, I was thinking more in the mindset
of I'm going all in on this YouTube
content, audience growth treadmill.
And I'm committing to that for 2024.
And, and now I'm backing off of that
to say, I still want to do it, but it's
just going to be more of a side hustle.
alongside the, the businesses
that I'm working on.
Um, uh, but, but I, I'm talking about,
one of the things that's enabling it
to be a side thing is I'm outsourcing
the editing, hopefully once we
get that Dropbox shit figured out.
but the, yeah.
Once we get her set up for, for doing
the editing, then I should, in theory, be
able to once or twice a month sit down and
write a script and create a video and send
it off and maybe we can publish one or or
two a month instead of One or two a week.
so that's number one.
but the, you know, I'm still
spending roughly half of my
time working on clarity flow.
it's starting to tick up right now.
And I just hired someone to work on
customer success on clarity flow.
that's like roughly half of my time.
And then the other half is
now I'm doing, a bit more
consulting on product like, Okay.
Building products for clients
and consulting on product
strategy with clients.
Um, and, and I'm working on, like a, a
new website to promote my consulting work.
and, but I think that that's sort
of a little bit ties in with the
stuff that I want to do on YouTube.
YouTube is still under the
name of full stack founder.
That's still about teaching
people how to code, how to design,
how to build your own products.
I still want to sort of like
water that plant a little bit
and and keep those videos going.
But I think that that could also generate
some interest in working with me as a,
as a product, builder product consultant
Matt: Do you think you're getting more
traction in the consultancy side now?
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3: I
wouldn't call it like a lot of traction.
I have a couple of clients that I'm,
I mean, I work with one at a time.
I, I just wrapped up one and then I'm
working on a second one right now.
I'm I have two other ones that
I'm talking to about starting
up, in the next couple of weeks.
Um, uh, and these are just
through my personal network.
These are mostly like friends in the
industry who, who happened to need
the type of help that I'm offering.
and, so that's, that's a good start.
I think, it's, it's nice, like having
friends who run SAS companies who happened
to have a need for some product work.
but, what I'm actually working on
right now, like today is, writing up
a new, landing page to really promote
this as like a consulting offer.
Not really productized, but, but,
kind of just writing it up in terms of
trying to, you know, the sales pitch
for why it makes sense to bring me in.
and, and then I'll probably do
more of an active effort to pass
that out to more people who could.
Generate some lead flow
this year, you know,
Matt: I was listening to your
last episode with Jordan.
And you were saying something about,
like that slow growth that, that like
any SaaS business, you know, is going
to have, I forget how you framed it, or
like a bootstrap person is going to have.
I think you said something like
growing clarity flow at this point
is just going to take all these like
bigger time consuming aside from you
know, bringing in a bunch of cash
and throwing it at like pay per click
and just like injecting traffic.
doing these slower moving, more organic
content engagements, whether that's,
you know, you host the pod, you have
your podcast that points to clarity flow
now, but you could be on more podcasts
and guest appear on these podcasts.
You could create more videos like,
but all this stuff is a lot slower.
It doesn't inject traffic right away.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
everything in clarity flow is slow.
It's growing, but it's just slow.
And I think, and I think that the, the
big takeaway that I have going from
2023 to 2024 is I tried to throw money
at, at the marketing funnel machine.
let's like, this thing basically works.
We have customers who come and they
really like it and they convert.
We just need a lot more of
them to come more frequently
Matt: right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
you should be able to like, spend dollars
and get more customers, especially
if you have a product that fits that
honestly, I just don't believe that that
is the case and there might be people
listening who are just like, okay,
Brian, you're just bad at marketing.
And there's probably a
lot of truth to that.
But I have a, I don't know, like a working
theory that In 2024, you can't just spend
money and generate more demand if it's, if
it's not there naturally, you can't like,
buy your way to a distribution channel.
There's a lot of companies who do
really well because they have a
really good distribution channel.
You know, maybe they started off
with a huge audience, or maybe they,
they're plugged into some app store
that's sending them a lot of traffic.
Or they have a really key, close
integration partnership, and that's
been really, beneficial for them.
but if you don't, if you don't have one
of those, inroads or one of those, built
in advantages, I just, the only other way
to grow fast, I think, would be if, if,
if the world happens to be throwing a huge
wave of demand at you, if right now you
just have the type of product where there
is just a sudden surge in, in demand.
I mean, I think WordPress saw this
maybe 5 or 10 years ago, where,
where it's just like every year there
are millions and millions of more
people building WordPress sites.
And It just floated like every,
every WordPress company just
felt this wave of demand, give
them a rush of momentum, right?
that's the kind of thing that, that, so
it's either you have this distribution
channel or you have this unusually
high demand for your, for your thing.
But if you're in like the other 90
percent of startups that that don't
have this distribution channel and yeah,
there's I see demand for clarity flow.
We literally get, you know, hundreds
of signups a month and, and, and, and
like a lot of them convert into paying
customers, but we're doing things
that just slowly inch that up month
after month, but it's, it's not going
to see a hockey stick growth in 2024.
It's just not, you know, so like
the only thing that actually, Okay.
And then I spent a lot of time
looking at like Where do our
actual customers come from?
Right?
we, you know, we get people
googling like googling for like
asynchronous coaching or asynchronous
communication and stuff like that.
And that that leads to our homepage.
that's one chunk of our customers.
And then the other big chunk is like
literally just coaches talking about it.
They word of mouth.
They tell they tell
other coaches about it.
Or there's sort of a viral loop,
like they see it from another coach.
I spent thousands on pay per click.
It drove no customers.
I, I spend, I do some cold email
outreach that sort of works a little bit.
It adds a handful of
more customers a month.
It's not huge.
and then, and I've, I've,
I've done pay per click.
I've done integrations.
I've done, we have an affiliate program.
I've, I've paid for sponsorships,
like I've done all these things
and nothing moves the needle,
like just plain old word of mouth.
You know, like somebody using the product.
They like it.
They tell someone
Matt: Yeah.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
and so that's the only thing that we
can do at this point is I keep making
the product better and keep helping
customers be successful with the product.
And so that's that's the only investment
that I made in clarity for this year
is hiring a customer success person.
And she's just starting up right now.
And, and the idea is to have her give more
personalized attention to every customer
who comes in, that I'm able to give.
And that should that
should have the effect of.
Improving our conversion rate, like
converting more trials to customers and
because they get better help, they are,
they stay, they stay around a lot longer.
So that reduces churn rate and
because they had such a great
experience, they will tell their
people more readily than they do now.
And that should, that should help,
you know, grow it a little bit.
But I'm sort of done with Spending big on
these like big funnel experiments that are
going to grow the top of funnel, you know,
Matt: I mean, from the out, I think
when people listen, you know, even when
I'm listening to your other podcasts,
it almost sounds Don't take this the
wrong way, but it sounds like you're
almost like, it feels like it just, just
that the, I'm going to give up on like
putting all of my effort into this, but
then I'm getting email updates from you.
You're, you're launching new features.
And I think, you know, for the folks
listening to this, who also follow
Brian's stuff, on his other channels is.
Hey, it's a, it's, it's just a more
organic way of growing this product.
I think I see this a lot more in
the WordPress space where people are
launching plugins, but they're still
doing their services like they still
have, like they still plug in service and
there's a, there's a fine balance there.
And I think, you know, to
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I think you're right about that.
Matt: yeah,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I think you're I think you're reading
it correctly and I and I it's it's
I'm not giving up on clarity flow.
Like I said, I just hired somebody
to work on clarity flow and
I still have a developer who
works on it every single day.
And I work on it every day,
Matt: yeah, right.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
in 2024, it has come to a point
where I, I can't give it 100
percent of my hours anymore.
I, it, it just, I can't afford to do that.
It doesn't, it doesn't pay for that.
so I've come to the conclusion that,
this is how that business survives is if.
If, if I can still give it some resources
and, and I have to do, I have to be
working on other things that can not only
just generate income, but I'm trying to
build other stuff, like other assets, like
the YouTube channel and stuff like that.
Um, you know, and that's the hard
thing about having a podcast and being
public about stuff is that, I think,
I think most listeners, even I, I
love my listeners, but I, and, and
it's just the nature of the medium.
It has this effect of making
things sound like bigger than
they actually are like businesses.
and also, it's almost if I'm talking
about my business clarity flow or
whatever it is, it's just, just the
act of talking about it makes it sound
like I'm 100 percent all in on this
thing or, or if I'm talking about
something else, it's oh, then I must
not be touching clarity flow at all.
But there's a lot more nuance to it.
I'm literally spending half my hours on
one thing and half my hours on another.
and it's that's hard to come across
in a, you know, because people like
to hear people tune into the podcast
because they're hoping to hear like
a story and a, and a rocket ship that
starts on the ground and then, and
then it keeps going up and up and up.
But that's not reality, you know?
Matt: yeah, yeah.
And it's hard for people to, you know,
you know, I listen to it, well, because
I've been listening to you guys for,
you know, forever, and, you know, same
thing, like the story, and, like to
just hear you guys talk about stuff.
And, but I think there might be a,
just a healthy set of other folks who
are listening, okay, when they run
into that problem, how do I solve it
on, on my side, they did a thing in
marketing, how can I do it on, on my side?
you know, and I think that, you
know, that's, that's the benefit that
the audience gets from, you know,
listening to both of your experiences.
Full stack,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I, I, yeah, sorry, go
Matt: was going to say full stack
and full stack founder, like you were
thinking, all right, I might back at
end of 2023, you might be thinking,
okay, I'm going to go all in with this.
This will be the.
The product, a new product, a
new stream, but maybe now that
one gets slid to the side a bit.
Maybe that only takes 20 percent
of your effort and consulting
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah, because I think, I think that
the, the conclusion that I came to more
recently is, that's fine to do some
YouTube stuff, but it's not going to
pay the bills anytime soon, you know,
the thing that does pay the bills faster
is consulting work and, I thought that
I, because I thought that I was going
to do more, more like coaching work.
And I, I had started to do that
in like December and January.
but I, I didn't find the coaching
to be very effective or, or like
kind of a good use of my time.
so I actually shut that down to in favor
of more traditional, like consulting work.
And now the consulting that
I'm doing is sort of 2 flavors.
1 is Me being an advisor on your
product, you can, it's sort of looks like
coaching, but it's, it's deeper than that.
I am diving into the detailed
planning and strategic road
mapping of, of your product.
and then the other one is actually built,
more longer term, multi month engagements
to, to have me and my small team,
actually build a product for, for you.
Um, uh, that's, so, so there's a, those
are like the two things that I'm, that
I'm kind of building out in terms of I
think that's something that especially
the build like the building products
as a service type of thing that that
could that is the potential to turn
into an agency model, down the road.
I would say in the short term
is more like me consulting.
Um, uh, so it's a way to,
bring in, a decent income.
It's still me building
products, which I love to do.
That's that's where I think
I add the most value is.
Either advising on product
or building products,
Matt: And you get to use, you
get to use your own product like
while, while you're helping people.
Yeah.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I consult with
Matt: Yeah.
So I mean like they could start
using it for their own teams or
like their own customers, right?
So there's, there is a little bit of
a cool opportunity there to be like,
I communicate on this product and.
You can have it too, you know,
if you want, you know, if
you want to engage your own,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah.
There's a little bit of that.
It's, it's, it's nice to
dog food it a little bit.
Matt: Cool, man.
Anything else, that you're looking forward
to for the for the rest of the year?
Any other big goal that
you came up with on
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I mean, I know that the theme
of this podcast is about
content and I, I really do.
I, I don't, I don't want to give up on.
I, I feel like I have, I published
four videos on my YouTube channel.
I have a fifth one that I recorded
a couple of weeks ago and that's
going to be the first one that.
Yeah.
My assistant will edit for me
and but that's been waiting for
her to get set up as the editor.
so that's why there's been like such a
delay and like I published the first four.
I have a fifth that's just been
waiting and waiting before for her
to figure out this and for her and
I to figure out the editing set up.
but what I want to do
going forward is like.
Whenever I have a free week, yeah, right.
I never have any free weeks.
But I want to start to be able to
record more videos and just put them
into Dropbox and have her edit them.
And then hopefully in the next
couple of weeks and months, I'll
get back into the swing of having
a regular cadence of new videos.
I will say the other thing
about it is like by by taking a
step back on the YouTube stuff.
and the full stack founder stuff.
I'm also removing some pressure.
I thought that, I had to build
that up as quickly as possible
to get to a point where I could
start to sell courses through it.
And so my, my thought in the, in the early
videos was like, let me be the teacher.
Let me show you, let me teach
you how to learn how to code.
Step by step and, I still might do an
educational course at some point, but
now it's I don't like I could just
maybe publish more like opinion based
content, you know, or just thought
pieces about my philosophy on products
or my philosophy on building stuff or
design patterns and stuff like that.
and let's just see where, where that stuff
goes, because it's just a side hustle.
It's just something that I'm doing
to hopefully grow an audience.
the, the stuff that will make
money is the consulting work
and, and growing clarity flow.
So it's like by, by not needing
YouTube to necessarily make money.
I can just, kind of just go, go
wherever the content or the inspiration
takes me rather than trying to Feel
like I have to teach a curriculum,
Matt: yeah, yeah.
And you're, and like what you did with the
podcast or do with the podcast, it's just
increasing that surface luck area, right?
Stuff, the term that we've, we've known
for a while now is like, the more you're
putting it out there, if you can lessen
that production overhead, you know,
once you get your editors aligned and
everything, then there's less of all
that cognitive load, and then you can
get those opinion pieces out faster.
you're just increasing
that awareness, right?
And at the end of the day, I
think that's going to unlock
some more opportunity for you.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
that's the
Matt: Fantastic stuff!
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
I, you know, I, I didn't expect to have
to cut my side of this podcast, short.
So, so quickly, but I don't know
what your plans are for this thing,
but I think it would be cool, to get
like another, to have maybe seasons
where you have, it's like you plus
a different person each season.
You know, a different person who's,
who's, who's breaking content, if you
will, right, you know, bring someone
else in who's either just starting
up or they're, or they're in the
swing of things with their content.
And you do a, a string
of episodes with them.
Matt: We've,
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Is that, is that what
you had in mind for this
Matt: We successfully
broke Fullstack Founder.
no.
no, I mean it It wasn't, it literally was
like, was to really just tell your story
of getting that, that off the ground and,
and also at the same time, like showing
like where I'm at with creating content.
But I think where, I think that's what
I'll do next is just kind of see if anyone
else wants to co host and really share.
As intimately as we both have,
for the last couple of months.
And, yeah, maybe we turn it into many
seasons and whatever, pressure point
somebody's dealing with with their
content creation journey at that time
will be the bookend to that season.
Right?
Instead of infinity, it's
just one thing at a time.
enhanced_brian_1_02-15-2024_140342_#3:
Yeah, for sure.