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Rad Chat is a forward-thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their knowledge and expertise in radiotherapy and oncology by utilising the award winning, first therapeutic radiographer led oncology podcast and social media channels.
We're empowering healthcare professionals worldwide by providing free, CPD-accredited radiotherapy and oncology education, by sharing real-world experience, expert insights, best practice and patient perspectives, we're helping healthcare professionals’ advance cancer care and improve patient outcomes.
Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:00)
Hello everyone and welcome to Rad Chat, founded by me, Jo McNamara.
Naman Julka-Anderson (00:04)
And me, Naman Julka-Anderson. Rad Chat is a forward-thinking global knowledge hub where healthcare professionals can advance their expertise in therapeutic radiography and oncology. Unlike traditional academic resources, we blend real-world experience, expert insights, best practice, and patient perspectives.
Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (00:21)
We make advanced knowledge engaging and accessible, supporting continuous learning and professional development without compromising patient care or your personal time by providing insights into both technical skills and career development, helping you to progress confidently in your field and shape your professional future.
Naman Julka-Anderson (00:38)
Just to let you know, our episodes may contain sensitive and difficult topics that you might find distressing or triggering. Please consider checking out another episode.
Jo McNamara (00:47)
Welcome. So this is a special series in collaboration with the East of England Consultant Therapeutic Radiographer Network where we're going to be hearing from our guests Michelle Bates and Kim Whitlock. So welcome to Rad Chat guys, this has been a monumental project in the making hasn't it? It has taken a lot of dedication specifically from Kim in emailing everyone in the region to try and get them on board and to get podcast episodes
scheduled. Kim, welcome, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Kim (01:17)
Hi, so I'm Kim. I am a consultant therapeutic radiographer based at the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital. I specialise in breast and I am part of the East of England consultant radiographer group, which is kindly supported by our regional network, which Michelle is our senior programme manager for.
Jo McNamara (01:39)
So Michelle, tell us a little bit about your role and what you do.
Michelle (01:43)
Hi, I'm Michelle. I am the Senior Programme Manager for the East of England Radiotherapy Network. I am a therapeutic radiographer by background and I moved into my role about five and a half years ago. So the radiotherapy networks are designed to improve access to modern radiotherapy for patients and to improve outcomes. So I facilitate
quite a few different groups within the region to look at variation, to look at how we support the workforce and with the ultimate aim to improve outcomes for our patients.
Naman Julka-Anderson (02:17)
Why did you get into therapeutic radiography in the first place, Michelle?
Michelle (02:20)
The honest answer is I opened the UCAS book and I landed on, I knew I wanted a job in healthcare but I didn't know what I wanted to do, I didn't want to be a doctor or a nurse and I didn't really know what else existed so I was looking through the UCAS book and I saw Therapeutic Radiography, I thought that sounded quite interesting, went to visit a local department to me and went from there really so it was a very fortunate opening of the pages of the UCAS book.
Jo McNamara (02:47)
I love that. And the story that so many people tell. Kim, was yours similar?
Kim (02:51)
Yeah, pretty much. like Michelle knew I wanted to do healthcare, didn't want to be a doctor or a nurse. I, at that time, didn't really know much about AHPs or what those professions looked like. The only one I'd kind of heard of or come across was physio, so that was kind of where I was heading. And it's just so fiercely competitive, I think, probably for that reason. And I wasn't successful, so I...
picked up the UCAS book, looked through it. I did a placement in diagnostic and in therapeutic. And I know you have an audience that spans all of those, but I think most people fall into one or the other, don't they? For me, what really attracted me to therapeutic radiography was the fact that we got to see patients every day. And it kind of felt like we were really helping in that it wasn't kind of the diagnosing and then not being able to follow that up
when you knew something was wrong, that was the bit that I really struggled with from the diagnostic placement that I did. So yeah, that's how I landed it into this as a career. was basically a fortunate accident.
Jo McNamara (04:03)
Aww, well isn't it amazing that we've got so many failed physios as part of the therapeutic radiography community and I say that as one.
So why a podcast series? Why come to Rad Chat and go actually a podcast series on advanced and consultancy practice is the way to go.
Kim (04:28)
So as part of the East of England Consultant Reg for a group, one of the things when we set it up was to try to support those either in or kind of thinking about advancing practice as a career pathway. So, you know, we see our roles not only in the kind of clinical part and across those four pillars, but also in kind of role modelling what these might look like. And I think not every department has these roles established. And because you work
quite autonomously. People don't necessarily see what you do and what those roles fully involve. We went out to the advanced practitioners in our region and said you know if we were trying to work with Michelle and could we get some funding for a study day?
But just clinical demand at the minute is so busy and we didn't think that it was really viable in terms of we could put on an amazing study day but we didn't think that the people we were really aiming at and looking to support would be able to be freed up to come and everyone's so busy they don't necessarily want to give up their Saturday to attend either.
So that was when, and I'm not going to take the credit for this, was Sam who was another member of our group and one of the speakers later on in the series. He had the idea of kind of reaching out to you and thinking could we do it as a podcast series instead? So that's how it's come about.
Naman Julka-Anderson (05:51)
Good to know it wasn't just because you wanted a t-shirt or a mug or anything like that. It's still possible. There's duvet covers planned too.
Kim (06:00)
I didn't know a mug or a t-shirt was an option you'll be getting an email about those shortly I'm sure
Naman Julka-Anderson (06:07)
That terrifies me bit, thinking how many people might have our faces just in their kitchen or everywhere. Kim, how do we ensure advanced, enhanced consultant practice is part of the series?
Kim (06:21)
So the series is designed around what our kind of regional advanced practitioners came back about what they wanted to learn more about. So that's where we've directed kind of the episodes to try to cover those key topics. But I think there are bits related to...
anyone really so you know if you're in an enhanced role you're looking towards or advanced or even if you're not actually we know from our education and career framework that all of our roles no matter what level of practice should be working across those four pillars so I'm hoping there are going to be bits that people can take away no matter which level of practice they're working at or aspiring to.
Jo McNamara (07:05)
What are you most excited to talk about as part of the series?
Kim (07:08)
I think I'm really looking forward to hearing about the e-portfolio and Sam's experience of kind of undertaking the accredited MSc because I know that, you know, evidencing kind of advanced level practice or underpinning your consultant level practice is a big hot topic at the minute across all professions. So I think
you know, that can feel daunting to a lot of people, especially where we've been in these roles for a while. And then suddenly it's like, I don't have that. Do I need that? What does that involve? And, you know, when you're working full time clinically, the thought of trying to take on something can feel quite daunting. So I'm hoping that will help to unpick some of what that actually involves and what the experience of doing that and what the benefits are. So personally, I'm quite looking forward to that one.
I'm interested to hear about the research and funding. So we've got Rebecca Gerling talking about the NIHR opportunities and we've got Dr Amy Hancock joining us about the co-rips as well. So I think those are avenues and lots of different things that perhaps people aren't aware of. So think that will be quite interesting too.
Naman Julka-Anderson (08:24)
What opportunities does the group create for collaboration, mentorship or development?
Kim (08:28)
So we've kind of done lots of things to start with. So the group came about as an idea primarily for peer support. So I was lucky enough to do a secondment with NHS England as a radiography clinical fellow. And I think just that opportunity to network outside of
my immediate profession outside my immediate department just kind of opened my eyes to what that actually gives you in terms of support. I spoke to Michelle about thinking, we've got several of these people in these roles across the region. It'd be nice to have something formal where we have the opportunity to meet and try to collaborate. Thinking about also those other pillars
that
aren't so easy or don't necessarily feel so easy to evidence to try to see if we could do more of that systems level leadership. So we're not just focusing on what we're able to impact within our department or even within our trust, but wider. So can we be more supportive and have more impact as a group in terms of the regional kind of network? So that's kind of where it came from. As a group.
We've been established for a couple of years now. So we've been working on supporting some other newly employed or established consultant midwives in other departments, even outside our network, as well as Aileen, who joined us partway through our group being established. We've supported with kind of suggestions for interview questions and
of that process. We've been working on looking at appraisals for these roles within our departments as well and trying to formalise that and as a group we've actually we're in the data analysis phase of an impact study as well where we're trying to demonstrate the impact that our roles are having not just around clinical but across all four pillars as well.
Jo McNamara (10:46)
That was brilliant, but I'm gutted because I don't think you're doing enough Kim. It sounds like you're being a bit lazy as a group. No, I would honestly think as an advanced or a consultant practitioner, having that, not only as you say peer support, but having the infrastructure to kind of really do a deep dive on the things that you're doing is hugely rewarding and beneficial for the members. How do you actually like communicate with each other? How do you stay connected? Because I certainly know.
WhatsApp groups are great but that's not what you can necessarily do when you're trying to do a research project altogether. So how do you actively connect with all of your members?
Kim (11:26)
So we have four in-person days which are kindly funded by the radiotherapy network where we all meet. But we also have a Teams channel where we can share and collaborate on documents and messages, et cetera.
Jo McNamara (11:47)
That's great that you get the days funded and I suppose for anyone listening outside of the region who maybe is inspired to do something similar, I think that's key isn't it, is getting some funding, even if you can't get a lot of funding, enough to have those key days where you have that face-to-face contact is key. Do you think that, you know, having those face-to-face days builds relationships? Do you think they are important?
Kim (12:12)
Yeah, definitely, we have an agenda for those days, but there is always an element of kind of having the opportunity to unpack what your current work is like and issues that you're having amongst people that understand what these roles look like. And even though we...
lots of us come from different specialities so we're not all breast. Actually there's kind of lots of shared things and it just stops us completely feeling kind of isolated or kind of silo working so there are things that we can share no matter what our speciality is if that makes sense.
Jo McNamara (12:57)
I'd imagine as
well, actually having the group can be motivating and inspiring to think, actually, I'm an advanced practitioner, but I need to evidence it like this, or I'm an advanced practitioner, but I want to get involved in research like this. And, you know, for some, they will want to get to those consultancy posts. So I can imagine a group like this is quite inspiring. Have you seen stories where people have kind of developed their practice as a result of the group?
as well as obviously what they're doing clinically.
Kim (13:31)
I'd love to say yes, but I'm not sure I've heard of anything in particular based on the group. I don't know if Michelle's heard anything about that.
Michelle (13:41)
I think one of the things that we're aiming to do with the impact study is to really evidence that the need for consultant radiographers and to really provide then a pathway for staff looking to progress their careers so the ultimate aim is that we increase our consultant radiographer workforce across the network using the work that the group are doing to build those business cases at a trust level to really expand that workforce and I think
any opportunities that we have then to show people that there's a real obvious career pathway in radiotherapy and it's a career that will take you for life and takes you somewhere is really, really important because as you are all aware, we're struggling to get people into the profession in the first place. So showing people what opportunities are out there and that's not just around consultant practice, but all of the opportunities that there are if you come into radiotherapy is really, really important, I think.
Jo McNamara (14:34)
Although Michelle, I do think there has definitely been a turn because if you speak to admissions tutors at universities at the moment, the last two years has been incredible. We have closed before physio. When has that ever, ever happened? It's pretty incredible, the recruitment at the moment. So let's hope that that's the years of recruitment activity and outreach and us just being better at shouting about what we do and why we do it. I'm going to throw out a rogue question.
So hold on to your hats everyone. What do you think about the jobs that are advertised as band five but leading to consultancy practice? Because I have seen a few of those, only a few, but I just wondered what were your initial thoughts? Do you think that's a way forwards or do you think we should kind of go through our careers and then build up?
And then potentially see whether advanced and consultancy practice is something that we want to do.
Kim (15:34)
I guess there are a couple of things, aren't there? The first thing is we know that these roles aren't about banding. So they come down to what the job description is. I guess if the job description is pitched...
correctly across all of that progression and the consultant
post or the advanced practice post at the end has a job description that meets and fulfills that level of practice and the person within that role has the right skills and competencies to underpin that then ultimately I guess yes. However, being within one of these roles it's taken me 22 years
to get to this. I've been in this post for a little while, so less than that, I guess, when I entered this post. But if you speak to any consultant radiographer, I think there is always an element of overwhelm, imposter phenomena when they first enter those posts. And those are people that have got years under their belts of working in this profession
they will have probably had what we now think of as portfolio careers where they will have not only been on the treatment floor, they might have been in pre-treatment, in CT, in dosimetry, they might have been in on treatment review, they might have been in a management role or a research role and they've brought all of those wider level, what we think of as enhanced practice skills into
these roles and I think my concern about thinking about a band five hitting the ground in kind of qualification almost progressing up to a consultant level post is that have we got the time to really develop all of those skills so that actually they feel prepared and supported enough
to go into these roles and actually enjoy them and feel confident and want to stay. But everyone's completely individual, aren't they? So no one person is the same. You might get someone who is just absolutely phenomenal and eats up anything and everything that you give to them and they retain all of that and they're incredible. And it works for them.
But I do think there is an element of having that time to really consolidate your knowledge and gather that kind of wider experience that you then take into these roles.
Jo McNamara (18:29)
Michelle would you say the same?
Michelle (18:30)
Yeah, I would agree with that, there is a lot to be said for that experience that you gain over time, that kind of more strategic overview that you get of what you're trying to deliver and you understand bits of the jigsaw puzzle maybe that you wouldn't have understood if you don't have time to develop that experience. And I do understand that people coming in will want to progress quickly and we need to make attractive career pathways for people coming into the profession.
But there is definitely a balance to be had about making sure that, as Kim says, that we also support those people because they might not, you don't know what you don't know, do you? And so it's about making sure that we don't set those people up to fail, I guess, that we really make sure that they're well supported, able to do the job that we want them to get to the point to do. And so I think linking that together isn't
from band five to consultant practice probably isn't the right way to go. I think making sure that people can see that there is a career pathway that they can follow to get there is really important and to understand the steps that you might need to take if that's your ultimate goal and to make that pathway clear to people is really important but I think linking the role together as part of the employment isn't necessarily the right way to go.
Naman Julka-Anderson (19:51)
It's also about
Kim (19:51)
the other.
Naman Julka-Anderson (19:51)
looking after the patients as well, isn't it?
Michelle (19:54)
Being safe, yeah, absolutely.
Kim (19:56)
The other thing is that these roles are all service need driven as well. So if you're putting someone into post and saying, I don't know, I haven't seen those job descriptions to know what the expected time frame is, but say five years, how do you really know that in five years that is absolutely where your service need is going to need that post? So I guess that's the other thing really.
Jo McNamara (20:25)
I suppose that's why the podcast is so important, isn't it, about highlighting those advanced and consultancy posts and recognising that they exist within our profession. And actually we're quite established, aren't we, amongst the AHPs in having that career pathway. When you talk to some of the other allied health professions, they have nothing like we have set up. I don't know whether it's because we are very procedural. We probably create our own barriers, don't we, in therapeutic radiography.
But I definitely think having oversight of actually this is achievable but also being realistic because I think I certainly see lots of students and they're like I have a desire to be a consultant and I'm like but why?
Because you've not yet qualified and been in practice so how do you know already that that's what you want to do and even when we interview people someone goes I really want to be a paediatric radiographer and then ten years later they're heading up a palliative service and you're like I thought you were interested in paediatrics and sometimes it is just exposure isn't it?
Michelle (21:32)
100 % agree with that. If you'd have told me at the beginning of my career that I would end up in sort of a strategy type role, it would not have been on my radar or something I would be interested in at all. I was all about the patients and my role is still all about the patients, but I have no patient contact. I'm not in the day to day of therapeutic radiography anymore but I would not have dreamt that this would be where I ended up,
when I started my role. So I think it is about exposing, you know, not going into the role in, into therapeutic radiography, very narrow minded about where you want to end up, but allow yourself those opportunities to see what else there is, because actually where you think you're going to end up might not quite be right for you. And, and there are huge opportunities within therapeutic radiography that you aren't aware of when you come into the role.
And the more you see where your skill sets lie, the more you're able to then understand what might suit you in the end. So I think definitely just allow yourself as much exposure and don't go in thinking, I want to be a paediatric or an oedophore and that's what I'm going to do because you cut out huge sways of other roles that you might be better suited to and enjoy far more.
Naman Julka-Anderson (22:54)
You talked about the impact study earlier. Can you tell us a bit more about it, please?
Michelle (22:57)
So this came about our clinical lead for the network at the time, Dr. Ajit Kumar asked the consultant radiography group to write an editorial about the roles of consultant radiographers. And the group felt that they wanted to actually write something that was more evidence-based and not just sort of, this is where we think we are. So they came back and said,
thanks for the offer. That's very kind. But actually what we'd rather do is do a study to look at the impact of our roles. So as Kim mentioned earlier, we're currently in the data analysis phase. So they've collected huge swathes of data about the four pillars where they spend their time. And then what we're looking at doing is trying to look at how the job descriptions align with what they're actually doing. And then looking at how that then impacts on
the workforce and the work that they're doing. So hopefully we'll get to the point where all of this analysis is done and we can get that published so that can then help to support other people when they're producing their business cases for these roles. To get anything now in the NHS, we have to have really good quality data, really good evidence that these roles are needed. So it's about building that evidence base for these roles to show what difference they make.
Kim, you might want to add a little bit more about exactly what you are doing with the impact study.
Kim (24:27)
Yeah, so we've done a kind of activity diary across the four pillars when we looked at what was out there already. Lots of them were demonstrating the kind of clinical impact, but what we've tried to do is demonstrate that the impact these roles have across all of the four pillars. So it is just a pilot study. Helen's going to talk a little bit more about it, I think, potentially in one of the later episodes
like Michelle said, we got approached to do the editorial. I think there was that little bit of imposter phenomenon within all of us that went, we can't just stand up and say we're amazing and we're doing all of these things. We kind of need something that shows what we're doing. So, and when we looked, we felt that that was perhaps a little bit of a gap in terms of what's out there already in published. So that's where we've started. Hopefully it will come soon.
Jo McNamara (25:21)
Amazing, eagerly awaited. I also think as well, sometimes, especially with the NHS when you're writing business cases, it is about kind of bed numbers. I know that doesn't translate to radiotherapy, but it still operates that way, doesn't it?
I certainly know and I know Naman and I have had lots of conversations about the impact that advanced and consultant practitioners have on patient care and just having extra time. It's not about kind of taking roles and responsibilities off other people, it's about adding to the workforce and being able to better support patients and I certainly know speaking from a patient's perspective, having those practitioners allows you extra time to ask the questions that, you know, if you've got a busy clinic with an oncologist who is in three
sites over the course of the day and just hasn't got time, it gives you a great opportunity to kind of connect with someone just about radiotherapy and oncology and ask all the questions that maybe you feel that you can't necessarily do with an oncologist. Kim, would you say that that's something that you see with your patients?
Kim (26:26)
I'm really lucky in that the team that I work with, I my new patient appointments, for example, aren't any longer than the consultant oncologists ones. We have the same amount of time. So I think that I hope that they would get the same quality service out of all of us in terms of that. But I think just as a team, have perhaps a...
we have a different dynamic because of having
Jo McNamara (26:50)
Yeah.
Kim (26:50)
a consultant and an advanced practitioner within our kind of service.
The consultant oncologists bring a wealth of knowledge and skills that we absolutely don't have, but we also bring that kind of radiotherapy knowledge and seeing the patients. And like you said, we perhaps have the ability, you know, if they're on set and they've got a question, we perhaps have a bit more
Jo McNamara (27:13)
Yeah.
Kim (27:14)
flexibility to be able to go and support the radiotherapy team
Jo McNamara (27:19)
Yeah.
Kim (27:19)
in terms of that kind of thing as well. So yeah, I think.
That's the joy of multidisciplinary working, isn't it? Actually, we all bring something to the pot and it just works so much better when you've got all of that within it. I'm just really fortunate that, you know, we've got a team that kind of recognise that and that's how it's it's set up.
Jo McNamara (27:50)
So what's the future of the group looking like? What can we expect? And also, if someone's listening to this thinking, I want a group like that, or I want to be involved, how do people go about getting involved? And is there eligibility criteria? Or if someone's in Scotland, do they need to set up their own regional team?
Kim (28:10)
So we do have terms of reference for the group because it's funded by the East of England. And because we know that there's that importance to the face-to-face days, obviously, if we widened it, we would lose that ability.
So our group is open to anyone in the region who is either in a trainee consultant role, using that title or a consultant radiographer. Just because otherwise we know with these roles there are lots of different titles and things and it just felt that we kind of needed a boundary
what we've gone for because it seemed quite clear but we're very open to you know helping, supporting, answering questions etc outside of that so we're open to anyone kind of contacting us not just within our region but outside. Michelle's kindly set us up with a page on the radiotherapy network so all of our details are on there for anyone that wants to get in touch.
Jo McNamara (29:17)
Michelle, why do
you think it's important that these groups do exist? You know, obviously it's amazing within your region, but why do you think it benefits people in your kinds of roles to have this group as well set up?
Michelle (29:29)
So the network has a network oversight group, is sort of a board and we draw on the kind of heads of department and heads of physics and consultant leads for their expertise. But actually, we also need these sort of expert reference groups underneath that structure to provide us with a steer to deliver some of the projects that we need to do. So we have a few groups like this. We've got a treatment planning group
got an imaging group, so it's looking at trying to, one of our main aims is to kind of reduce variation and as I say, improve those outcomes for patients. So if we have these groups who are experts on the ground and we can bring them together and we can allow them to collaborate, we can hopefully reduce some of that duplication of work that we know happens often when we're working in silos. So we can share, we can learn from each other, we can ask the stupid questions that, you know, we're trying to implement a new technique
why doesn't this work? And someone else has probably made the same mistake just down the road. So actually we can start to just learn from each other. So I think supporting that means that we can make improvements far easier than we would be able to do if we were just trying to do those in silo. And as a network managers group, we are trying to get better at then sharing those examples of how things have worked. So we're now developed a case study template and we're going to create a central repository for that.
If anyone has any achievements that they've done, so any quality improvement projects or any service improvement initiatives that they've run that, you know, we're not very good at celebrating our successes, are we? We just move on to the next thing. So what we want is, it's very high level, but we've produced a case study template. Get those filled in. If you've delivered on something, get that filled in. It asks for your contact details. So then if somebody in Scotland is trying to do what you've already done,
they can contact you and say, were your key learning points here? How can we do this the same? is, you know, it might just be a really small project. It doesn't have to be something huge, but sometimes those small projects make a real difference to patients. So that's what we're really wanting to start to do is to really support collaboration and sharing of learning. So I would suggest to people, if you want something similar to we've got in the East of England, then reach out to your network managers
hopefully they would be able to support you to set something up, even if it just starts, as Kim said initially, as that peer support platform and somewhere to ask a stupid question. But then maybe it will develop into something like Our Group has become and actually the things you want to start to deliver and to show the impact of what you do.
Jo McNamara (32:13)
We always finish Rad Chat episodes with top tips so Kim, Michelle, any top tips for listeners?
Michelle (32:19)
I have just somewhat covered my top tip would be just to engage with your network and to, we're always want to find out what's happening on the ground, how we can better support you to deliver your roles. So what do you want to see from your networks? Really engage in those conversations. Just because you don't sit on the network board doesn't mean that you don't have a voice in your network. So that would be my top tip really is engage as best as you can and open yourself up to as many opportunities as you can.
Kim (32:48)
So my top tip would be always ask the silly question because I can guarantee there is someone listening that wants to know the answer but perhaps just hasn't asked it and that kind of applies whether you're the patient, whether you're a radiographer or whoever. You know it's quite daunting isn't it to put your hand up and ask but...someone else will want to know. And it isn't silly if you don't know the answer, you need that information. yeah.
Jo McNamara (33:16)
Yeah, put your pride aside, ask the question and you'll develop as a result of it. Brilliant top tips there. So thank you all for listening to Rad Chat. This is the first in the series. Please do go and check out the remaining series and podcast episodes and we hope you enjoy them. Thank you very much.
Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (33:34)
So what do you do now? Well you can use this episode as part of our free continual professional development accredited content which offers flexible learning that fits your busy schedule. Just check out the show notes for the reflective questions, links to literature and resources and link to the completed form to receive your accredited certificate.
Naman Julka-Anderson (33:54)
Stay up to date with the latest radiotherapy and oncology advancements by liking and following us on social media and hitting subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (34:04)
Please do join our supportive community designed by professionals who understand the unique challenges of working within radiotherapy and oncology. Follow us across all of our social media channels and make sure to check out our website www.radchat.co.uk. Together we're actively working to improve our profession and make a lasting positive impact on cancer care.
Naman Julka-Anderson (34:27)
It goes without saying that we can't achieve this alone. It takes all of us working together to create real change. That's why we value every voice and every contribution. We ask that you listen and learn and spread the word, share your story with us and connect with us.
Jo McNamara Rad Chat Host (34:32)
And if you have liked this content, why not buy us a coffee? Go to our website and drop us some love. Thank you all for listening and take care.