Scripture is God's Story

This episode explores what happens when we stop making ourselves the center of the story and learn to see our lives within the larger story God is telling. Jacob, Jessie Cruickshank, and Julia Schmaltz talk about sin, shame, identity, and our limitations—and how these things can become invitations to deeper relationship with God rather than reasons to hide from Him.

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→ whoology.co/identity
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Becoming Good News: Reimagining Discipleship Through Identity, Story, and Science
→ Becoming Good News

Ordinary Discipleship: How God Wires Us for the Adventure of Transformation
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ABOUT JESSIE:
Jessie Cruickshank holds a Master’s degree in experiential education from Harvard and has spent 30 years studying how the brain actually learns, grows, and changes. She’s the author of Ordinary Discipleship and the architect of Identity Formation Theory, a framework for understanding where people are in their spiritual and psychological development. She believes discipleship was never meant to be a solo journey, and neuroscience backs her up.

Creators and Guests

Host

Jessie Cruickshank

Author of Ordinary Discipleship, Speaker, Neuro-ecclesiologist, belligerently optimistic, recklessly obedient, patiently relentless, catalyzing change

What is Ordinary Discipleship Podcast?

The Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank and the Whoology team is a journey through the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and narrative to ignite the disciplemaker in you.  Delve into the transformative power of storytelling, exploring how our brains are wired for transformation and discover the extraordinary in the ordinary. From understanding the biological roots of storytelling to unlocking the secrets of spiritual maturity, each episode offers insights to empower you to become a more effective disciplemaker and deepen your spiritual growth.

Jacob: Hello, hello! Thank you
for joining us on the Ordinary

Discipleship Podcast. I'm Jacob.
I'm here with Jesse Krukshank

and Julia Schmaltz. Lately, we
have been having conversations

informed by their book, Becoming
Good News: Reimagining

Discipleship Through Identity,
Story, and Science. And so,

we're glad that you listeners
are here with us, and it's good

to be with you, Jesse and Julia,
today as we continue to talk

about discipleship and how
identity informs discipleship. I

think there's a question we can
wrestle with, which is like,

what do we do in our own
formation when we feel like

we're getting hung up on our own
sin or brokenness, like the

scriptural touch point we we
were discussing before we were

recording, it's like when Paul
says, "I do not do the things I

want to do, and I and I and I do
the things I don't want to do.

It feels like that can be a
sticking point in our

discipleship, and so as we think
about what it means to use

identity as the core of our
discipleship growth. How would

we speak to this question about
like getting stuck around sin

issues or brokenness or or stuff
like that?

Julia Schmaltz: Yeah, it's a
great question, specifically

because I mean you go back to
Genesis chapter three and what

what Adam and Eve dealt with at
the very beginning. You know, it

says that they that they were
afraid, and that they went and

hid in shame, and so that's the
exact same thing that happens

with Moses when he is confronted
with God. Confront you know

meets him in Exodus chapter
three, and at a burning bush,

and it says that he hides his
face, and he's afraid, and he

hides his face. So these ideas
of fear and shame are things

that that are prevalent with us
from the very beginning, all

throughout Scripture. When you
start paying attention to them,

you're going to see that they
come up a lot more and more. And

so you have to. It begs the
question, or I think we need to

stop and ask the question. Then,
what did God intend by giving us

fear and shame in His creation
in the first place, and are

those are those impediment? Are
those going to impede our

relationship with Him, or are
those actually invitations that

He has placed into His creation
story to be able to invite us

back into relationship with Him?
And that's really what we what

we've discovered as you know as
we dive into it, and as you

begin to understand you know
this psychology, and you you

look at psychology instead of
saying let's let's you know last

our last conversation our last
episode we talked a lot about

you asked the question about
positive thinking, and you don't

have you can't positive thinking
is not going to get you over the

sin problem, you're not going to
be like okay. You know, let me

just think my way through this,
and let me let me be positive,

and I hope that I'm going to be
okay. All of us are human

beings, and we feel things very
deeply, and that's what we

believe in Scripture, and we
believe through our own

experience, and we believe that
it God just continues to

highlight to us that are these
emotions, those things He wired

into us from the very beginning,
are actually are means by which

He disciples us and calls us
back into relationship with Him.

And so you have to ask the
question: Is it our story or is

it His story? Because if it's if
it's our story. Then I have to

somehow overcome my own pain, my
own sin, my own. I need to be my

own savior. If it's God's story,
then He has put the place those

things into His creation, so
that His created ones will fall,

will will come back to Him, so
that we have have a a reason to

turn to a God because we can't
save ourselves.

Jacob: Now I think we're well
aware that we're treading on

potentially shaky ground because
Julia, you said he God placed

those things in creation so we'd
return to Him. Talk about what

do you mean by those things? I

Julia Schmaltz: believe that
that God doesn't make mistakes,

and so I'm gonna. When he forms
our psyche, when he talks about

our development, you know, we've
been talking a lot about our

autobiographical memory systems
and things. Our psyche, which is

our soul, our mind, our will,
and our emotions, those are

things that he created. And if
we believe that God created us

in in His image, image and
likeness, if He is calling us in

the New Testament, Paul's asking
us to have the mind of Christ.

Right? We talk about the Spirit
of God. All of those things are

the soul, essentially, of God.
We're made in His image and

likeness. You know, with with as
beings that have mind, will, and

emotions. And so, I don't
believe that God gave us

emotions except for the fact
that those are supposed to be

used in our redemption. You
know, I believe our minds are

supposed to be redeemed. I
believe our choices are supposed

to be redeemed. So God gave us
circumstances in our development

so that they can lean towards
our redemption.

Jacob: Yeah, that's good. And I
think, like again, to to be

explicit. And connect the dots
with kind of where we started.

You're pointing out that like my
sinful choices are a product of

the of my psyche, my soul, will,
and emotions, and those are

things that were given to me by
God. And so it's not that God

made a mistake in giving me a
soul, will, and emotions that

are prone to sin. Rather, I'm a
part of a system that calls me

back to God to have my soul,
will, and emotions redeemed.

Julia Schmaltz: Correct.

Jacob: And we tend to say, well,
if my soul, will, and emotions

cause me to sin, then my soul,
will, and emotions must be bad.

And what you're saying is, then
that would make God a pretty

kind of a sicko, right? So, so
what we're saying is God's not a

sicko, right? Yes, yeah. Right.
Go ahead, Jesse.

Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
mean, so I kind of think about

it like this, and and this is,
and it's this conversation that

exposes the false narrative
maturity to be perfection,

because God's goal for us is not
to be perfect, and when we think

that it is, then sin becomes and
and and these things that like

when we don't do it right become
a reason for separation, and we

hide out of fear. So so so the
actual the problem is not that

we're imperfect. The problem is
that we buy into the false

narrative that we should hide
and be ashamed when we do

something wrong. And as any good
parent knows, you want to know

when your kids do something
wrong. You want them to come to

you. You want them to come and
and have you help them. And God

is no no different than that.
It's not that we screw up; that

is the problem. It's that we
believe that that is a shameful

thing, and we need to hide and
run away. That is the problem.

So, so God is not worried that
He made you imperfect. God is

not worried that He made you
with limitations. That's not a

mistake. But because we've
bought into that false narrative

of perfection, and we've
actually bought into this bigger

narrative of like the Uber
Minch, which is that we are

supposed to be superhuman, and
we've centered ourselves in the

story. So now the story is
actually about my best self and

my best life. Instead, and then
and then any of our limitations

and perfections, the things I'm
not good at become hindrances

and problems. And God didn't.
God did. That's not God's story.

That's man's story. That might
even be the enemy's story, the

deceiver's story. But that's not
God's story, because God is knew

what He was doing when He
created each one of us, and when

He created us humans with with
limitations, and those

limitations are for our good;
they're not something to be

overcome. But when we center
ourselves in the story, they

become everything. But if we
center God in the story, well,

then of course the cross is big
enough. Of course God's mercy

and grace is enough, and He has
made perfect forever those who

He's making holy, which is a
verse I mentioned is one of my

favorite verses in Hebrews 1014.
Just perfection isn't God's

goal; it it just never was.

Julia Schmaltz: Well, and and
then the ultimate false

narrative. I think you just
mentioned this, Jesse, when it

comes to perfectionism, but
ultimately is that we're trying

to be our own God, which is
idolatry, and that that if I can

save myself, if I can overcome
my imperfection, then I am

capable of saving myself. And
that is absolutely not the

gospel message. The gospel
message is that we are created

with the need to be saved by our
Creator, and by and so that's

what He did. He came down into
his creation to do for us what

we could not do for ourselves,
and we need a savior. That's why

I mean, even you go right into
Exodus in the the 10

Commandments. You know, you
shall have no other gods before

me. The first, you know, the
first number of of commandments

are about who is your God, who
is at the center of your

universe, and if we believe that
we can save ourselves, we're

putting us ourselves at the
center.

Jacob: Yeah, and that's what's
interesting. I think like a

person might hear us talking
about personal narrative being

the key to discipleship, and it
sounds like putting ourselves at

the center. But what we're
really, but what you all are

really saying, and what we're
kind of saying in this

conversation, is like, no, the
key to understanding your

personal narrative is
understanding that you are one

small piece of God's greater
narrative.

Julia Schmaltz: Yep.

Jacob: And so, discovering our
narrative is really about

finding our place in the meta
narrative of God in Christ.

Jessie Cruickshank: Right. Your
God is not an NPC or a genie in

your story, and and a lot of us
live that way. Some of us even

have whole discipleship
paradigms that are that way. But

you you are a side character.
You are a side quest in God's

story, and it's just it's just
putting things in the right

order.

Julia Schmaltz: You know when
you. Think about how we develop,

though we we develop egocentric.
We don't we we develop with it's

all about like I am here, this
is who I am. I only have eyes

developmentally for my me and my
life, and then my family as I

get a little bit older, and then
my friends, and it we really

don't hit until our late
adolescence, early 20s. I mean,

they say the brain doesn't
firmly form form till 25. We're

not even hitting till that point
the capacity to even have a

conversation about others and to
really understand what it means

to care for others and to have
compassion and and intercede on

behalf of other people, and you
have to go again. God doesn't

make mistakes, and so that's
where where where Jesse and I

have come into this
conversation. You know, one of

the things that we discovered
because we're like, why why does

this feel like it's a new
conversation to a very you know

to the gospel? Like we're we're
like we don't have to build on

generations after you know we
don't have to build on church

history and one of the things
kind of the aha moments that we

had is you know up until 100
years ago people really stayed I

mean really the turn of the the
18 s and 1900s so 100 125 years

ago from the time of this
recording right people on

average live to be in their mid
30s. Now, people would live

longer than that, but the
mortality rate, infant mortality

rate, was so high that a vast
majority of people did not live.

You know, the average age was in
their 30s. Think about that too.

We didn't have cars. We take for
granted that we have cars

everywhere. Cars were not a
thing. We did not. People

weren't flying. They were just
starting to fly, you know, 100

years ago. And now, I mean, I
was in the Middle East a couple

of weeks ago, on the literally
on the other side of the world,

and within 13 hours, I'm back
home. So what? Like we live in a

world that did not exist 100
years ago, and so and then you

take medical technology, all
those things. People are living

longer. Start start adding all
that into the conversation. You

go, okay, like people did not
ever really leave home; they

didn't real, or if they did,
they did not go very far. So we

we believe that, or we came to
just you know begin to think

about it through a different
paradigm of God is maturing His

church because the way that when
we when you leave home you

actually go through a transition
that takes place that you know

emotionally psychologically like
you begin to take autonomy over

your own life in a new way and
so it looks like God is opening

up some doors in psychology and
through neuroscience for us to

understand how the inner
workings of how we think and how

we grow by allowing us to make
these discoveries in science

during this particular time in
history, which is really cool

and really fascinating.

Jacob: Yeah, and I think what's
beautiful about what you're

saying there is like we have new
information. If we allow that

new information to inform the
way that we read the scriptures,

we might discover that there's
even more grace than we thought

there was, and that's to me
really what it's all about,

right? It's like God is more
gracious, more abundant in His

love than we imagined, and what
y'all are saying is that that

comes through even when we
understand the way that God is

shaping us as people. If you
listener want to go deeper on

these topics, be sure to look
out for Jesse and Julia's book,

"Becoming Good News: Reimagining
Discipleship Through Identity,

Story, and Science. We're
continuing to dive into topics

inspired by the book here on the
Ordinary Discipleship Podcast,

so certainly join us next time
for our ongoing conversation.

Thanks.