The Side Quest Book Club Podcast

In this episode of The Side Quest Podcast, Slava and Jonathan are joined by guest Abby from BooksAndCrannies2023 to explore the chilling and thought-provoking novel The Girl With All The Gifts. The trio dives deep into the book’s core themes, including the unique perspective offered by Melanie, the ethical and moral dilemmas surrounding scientific survival, and how the story balances horror with emotional weight. Whether you’re a fan of horror, literary analysis, or speculative storytelling, this episode offers an engaging blend of insight, imagination, and thoughtful discussion.

Abby from @booksandcrannies2023 recommended this book. Make sure to follow her and check out her Goodreads account and Pango Bookstore.

Our website: www.thesidequestpodcast.com
Discover Side Quest: https://linktr.ee/asidequest
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(00:00) Intro
(01:01) Meet Abby from Books and Crannies
(03:14) Exploring 'The Girl With All The Gifts'
(06:14) Character Perspectives and Themes
(10:32) Scientific Grounding in Horror
(15:24) Ending Analysis and Moral Dilemmas
(20:25) Character Arcs and Development
(28:20) Pacing and Narration Insights
(31:09) Fun Side Quest: Zombie Survival Team
(36:30) Casting the Movie Adaptation
(36:56) Casting the Characters
(44:18) Exploring Themes in Literature
(45:02) Monsters or Humans?
(59:16) Closing Thoughts 

Creators and Guests

Host
Jonathan
Host
Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.

Jonathan (00:12.782)
Good afternoon and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan, bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take side quests because, frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.

Jonathan (00:45.068)
Well, we're back. Good morning, Slava.

Good morning, John.

got a special guest on with us today. Abby from Books and Crannies 2023 on Instagram. Welcome, Abby. First off, thank you for recommending this book to us. It was a good read.

Hi, good morning.

Abby (01:01.742)
Yeah, I loved it, so I'm glad that you picked it.

Awesome. And this is episode three for anyone tuning in of our Girl With All The Gifts series.

Abby, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what Books and Cranies is all about?

Hi, I'm Abby. I started at Books and Cranies in 2023. hence the date on the tag. I originally started it. I started a Pango Books store, which I still have. It's just an online bookstore because I've always wanted to own a bookstore. So I started that and then I started getting into the Bookstagram community and I was like, this is really fun. I started finding out that you can

the Nate on the end.

Abby (01:46.242)
help indie authors by reading like advanced reader copies. So I started getting, I transferred more into a bookstagram. I still have my pango bookshop. I have like 500 books. So if anybody needs any books, they're all around here in my basement.

And where can they find it? On your Instagram account, they can find the link to your Pango Bookstore.

Yeah, it's panko books slash books and crannies, but I have my link in my Instagram. But yeah, have like, I have a ton of vintage books, which are really cool. I kind of collect books as well. And I've always loved books. I was a creative writing major actually in college. So I'm also a writer. So that just kind of, and I've been reading since I was little. So yeah, kind of spurred that. And then I just kind of focus on, I like spooky books, like not.

super horror. I like ghost stories and zombies and stuff, so I focus a lot on that. But also I like post-apocalyptic dystopia type things as well.

Very cool. We're, we have the same mind or of the same heart, if you will. I like spooky stuff. like dystopian something. I often use the term on this podcast, things that are off the beaten path that are not straight stories. And this is why I think this book is so unique because there's a twist to the dystopian and to the zombie literature. You don't expect it because this is unlike all of the zombie content that I've ever consumed. This is.

Slava (03:14.488)
Completely different. So.

Now, you said that you did creative writing in college. Are you writing your own book at all yet?

I, so I have one. I actually submitted it in October, but I'm waiting to hear back. They said it probably wouldn't be until later this year because they opened submissions in February. They asked me to submit it earlier because I know the guy who co-owns the publishing company. nice. yeah, so I, it's the first like longer thing that I've written, but it's more of a chapbook because it's like half poetry, half prose.

and it's a ghost story. it's, I think it's pretty cool. Yeah.

Very nice.

Jonathan (03:59.522)
Sounds like a fun mix. Yeah. Hopefully you can send us a message to keep us updated on it.

Yeah, I definitely will.

Let's do a quick recap. So in episode one, we kicked off our journey into the girl with all the gifts. We dived into the world that M.R. Carey created. We explored the background of him as a writer, comic book, screenplays, and we emphasized a little bit his knack for blending science fiction and horror. And I think what really surprised us or maybe you shouldn't have, but there was emotional depth to this story, which I assume

It's the same for the rest of the stories. So the first discussion, we send her on the book's origins as a short story, its evolution, and then eventual adaptation into a film, which we haven't seen. And we can talk about it if you've seen it. We unpack major themes, survival, humanity versus monstrosity and moral ambiguity. And then we set the stage for episode two, where we explored the plot in more detail. We broke it up into key chunks. First, Melanie's life in the research facility.

The ethical dilemma surrounding her existence were dissected, pun intended. Next, we followed the group's journey into the infected wasteland where survival and character development took center stage. This is where Jonathan really started to enjoy the book. And then finally, we discussed the climax where Melanie's decision reshapes all of humanity, the future of humanity. And we ended on that this is a vivid world that Emmer Carey has built.

Slava (05:31.598)
And I think the scientific grounding is that really drew us to the story too. One of the key elements that drew us to the story, because it seemed that it wasn't too fantastical and yet it had those elements that were creepy and horror-esque and- Yeah.

It kept it grounded in Earth's reality, if you will, so that we could relate to like, yeah, science exists. These seem like plausible paths forward with the science. So it was good. And just so everyone knows, this is the final episode with Girl With All The Gifts. And next time we'll be looking at Apocalypse Z, which was another Instagram recommended book by Instagrammer NotSure2090. So that'll be fun to dive into.

hit that subscribe button so that you never miss an episode. This is one journey you won't want to miss.

Well Abby, we'll get right into it. What initially drew you to The Girl with All the Gifts?

So I actually have a friend who's really into zombies and he recommended this one to me. But I think the idea of children being the zombies being held in this facility was really, I think you mentioned it earlier, is just like something unlike other zombie books. And then I also fungus zombies are my favorite, like the last of us. I think that it's the, yeah, I think it's the most believable.

Abby (06:56.278)
and it's also like kind of gross, more gross than the other ones. So I found out that it was like a fungus thing and I was all in after that.

sold on it.

Yeah. Yeah. The way it starts out, you're introduced to the premise that this is completely different. Melanie is somehow different than the other people. And you quickly realize that she's a zombie, but not really a zombie. So do you think Melanie's perspective as a hungry kind of provided a deeper, I don't know, emotional resonance than a more traditional protagonist? Like just, was just a girl stuck in an apocalyptic world, which could be a cool story in and of itself.

But she's a hungry, but not.

I think, I mean, obviously, yeah, it makes it a really unique story. I, at first, you don't know that she's like a hungry. And so you're like, why are these children in cages locked up being in these chairs all strapped down? Like it sounds terrible. And it just sounds really, really weird. You're like, what's going on? And so I think immediately you have empathy for these kids, especially because they're children.

Abby (08:08.398)
and Melanie just seems so innocent and sweet and just wants to learn everything. So I think there's definitely more emotional attachment to her. Again, it's just unlike other stories because you don't have the perspective of zombies usually because they can't think or do anything.

Right.

And that goes into the whole moral ambiguity. And I don't think that's, it's that ambiguous because I have opinions on it. Dr. Caldwell's it's not ambiguous to me at least, but the way it's presented, the writer did a good job. Carrie did a good job where Caldwell's just blind ambition to finding a cure. She thinks of these people as test subjects and nothing else. And so you're already on Melanie's side because you're like, who's this psycho trying to literally dissect kids while they're alive?

We don't get a lot of internal thoughts of the other kids, but you get Melanie and you're like, well, if fine, maybe Melanie is an outlier. She's a genius among these kids. If she's the genius, there's still something in these kids that are, that is quote unquote human will intellect, you know, emotion, what the hell is going on? And you're quickly thrown into this world. That's kind of dark. And I also like kids stories like covenant made stories.

And the audience knows I mentioned this with Stephen King's It and a couple of other stories that we read where kids were not central. They were at least tangential to the plot. There was something that draws me to it. And maybe it's because I was a voracious reader when I was a kid and I read a lot of coming of age stories just happened to be the ones I picked when we were doing like either reading clubs or reading challenges, the local libraries, which is a thing in the nineties. I've always felt drawn to those kinds of stories.

Slava (09:55.97)
So to me getting thrown into this little girl's world, I was hooked from the first couple of paragraphs of the book.

I on the other hand struggled to really dive into the book until about halfway through. And that's, think simply because of how I approach stories, I come at things from a, I was actually discussing this with my wife last night, of how I think compared to how other people think. And I'm always looking, well, let me back up. The way that I look at my life, I have like not a 10 year plan, but like a hundred year outline of like things that I want for my life and family and the next like.

we'll say anywhere from four to 12 generations. And so like, this is how I look at life is like in a very long timeline. So that sometimes makes stories difficult for me because I'm like, okay, let's get to the next thing. And so for me, it was really difficult to get into the story until the actually the 36th chapter, which is the 50 % mark. So, cause I'm like looking for like, okay, what are the questions that we're trying to answer? like,

The example I used in a previous episode to talk about this was Lord of the Rings. We know the goal is to destroy the ring, but all the things along the way keep us intrigued. But I know the one question we're trying to answer is like, will it happen? Will they destroy the ring? Or with the mist, we start getting questions like why is the government around? Like there's more questions that are asked early on. And because there weren't, it was difficult for me to get my talents in it into the book and go, okay, Kaslava made fun of me.

He's like, it's a survival that they want to survive. That's what they want to do right now. And I was like, yeah. But like, that's, that's like table stakes for a zombie book. So I'm like wondering, like, what are the questions we're going to answer? And so for me, it was a little difficult to, get into it until the halfway mark where we start to see like zombies who are also having these human tendencies, like the mother with the carriage and the guy flipping through kind of singing himself a song. And it's like, oh.

Jonathan (11:58.614)
Okay. These are the questions I was waiting for. Like, why are they doing that? Like, what are we learning about that? So that's my little, my little taste of, of this book. have not read as much horror or zombie, material as sounds like both of you have. So it brings me to a question here, Abby, for you is the scientific grounding of like the fungal infection with the zombies and stuff. Cause you mentioned that you like fungus zombies specifically.

I assume that enhances the story for you, but like, does that plausible science in horror, like, do you love that or was it just a nice extra?

For some reason I love just like, there's this whole just like fungus, like body horror genre and I feel like it's getting bigger now and for some reason that's like really interesting to me. And like I said, I always, I love The Last of Us. It's one of my favorite games too. So I always think that, yeah, like the fungus part is just so much cooler. And then there's also like the cordyceps,

I forget what it's called, but yeah, the cordyceps fungus basically like actually exists and it re, I don't know, you might know this, but it basically like will reanimate dead ant bodies in real life. so, yeah, and so it's-

Yeah.

Jonathan (13:25.868)
Looking this up while you talk.

So it's a thing that actually happens, obviously, on a smaller scale. And they've done studies, and it doesn't do anything to humans, but yet. it's just yet. OK. Yeah, but I'm just, think that it does make it more interesting to me, because it is more believable to me than just like a virus or something that.

Calm down there, Kevorkian.

Jonathan (13:54.965)
unknown virus.

Yeah, zombifies people.

Okay, so you said they tested on humans. A, why do you know that? B, were you involved in this testing? I just, you can blink twice.

I was not. I just, or I don't know if they've tested it on humans, but they have scientifically said that it doesn't, it doesn't like work on humans. So I assumed that they tried it. I don't know. I like to know random things. So I look these things up.

Yeah, I didn't know, I didn't do any research on this specific fungus, but there actually is a zombie ant fungus, pheocordyceps unilateralis. So, yep, that's your science word of the day, folks. Manipulates behavior, controls, infects, death grip, fungal growth. All right, if you're writing a story, this is something else you can add into it.

Jonathan (14:59.692)
This is okay. Cool. Very cool. I didn't, yeah, I didn't look up that this was a real fungus. I just assumed it was, but that makes it even more fun. So let's jump to the end of the book real quick. Melanie ensures her survival of her kind, but at the expense of humanity, how did that ending hit you? Was it something hopeful or tragic or somewhere in between for you as a reader the first time you went through it?

I think it was somewhere in between. I was thinking more about Pandora's Box as I was thinking about it. I guess when I first read it, I think it was hopeful still because it seemed like there was no option. Like she found out that humans couldn't be cured, but there were these hungries that were half human, half zombie. And she, yeah, like ensured that they would be able to like...

survive. And so there's some sort of humanity that's surviving in this. Then I think she did the kind thing of turning all the humans, except Miss Justinu, into hungries as well so they didn't have to be attacked by the kids, like all the hungry kids like everybody else did. So she decided, Melanie and her, all of her smartness, that it was the best thing to do.

Nice. So you mentioned Pandora's Box and we actually got into this in one of the last episodes. So how familiar are you with Greek mythology?

I am a little bit familiar, so I kind of knew the base story, but then last night I went more through the story to make sure that I knew, because at first I was like, how is this related to Pandora's Box? And then I was like, it's very related.

Jonathan (16:42.316)
Yeah, we got into that pretty, not heavily, but Slava was surprised on that as well. I really enjoy ancient myths, I guess I'll say, like Roman, Greek, Japanese. I audible a lot of things, but there's a world mythology, I guess we call it a course, on audible. And there's actually some really fascinating myths in Africa that I feel like I was never taught growing up. anyway, that's just a side note.

So how do you feel like the Pandora's Box framework of a story was used in the book? Do you think it was used effectively? Do you think it could have been stronger? Because you talked about how the first time you read this book at the ending, felt like it had some hope to it. But it sounds like on subsequent readings that maybe that might be in question for you as the reader.

Well, I do, I still think that it was hopeful, but I don't know that the Pandora's Box myth theme was really spread out throughout it. I can see how it was in the beginning and the end, and especially how she was, Melanie was Pandora basically, and she was like obsessed with that myth. She was the girl with all the gifts is what they Pandora. So I thought that was cool. And then I was thinking that maybe

It wasn't until the end that she really opened the box, which would be like opening the pods, I guess. And then what remained was, yeah. And what remains would be the hope that there could still be some sort of humanity, even if it's half hungry, half human.

Right.

Jonathan (18:26.722)
Yeah.

Well, it's interesting that you say that because I'm reading a portion of Super Summary and it's like a Cliff Notes and we've used it for some of the books. think Super Summary for my brain just helps me look at chunks of books and then they provide their own themes and analysis of it. And they said that Rosie, the big truck or bus that they're on, that's like a self-sustaining mobile lab really.

never gets them to beacon the humanities approach to dealing with Melanie to Pandora. don't want to say meta because that sounds like I'm crawling up my own butt, there's it's it's quasi meta where you have Pandora's myth and then Melanie is Pandora and the thing that's trying to save them from Pandora ultimately fails. Human responses to people like Melanie and to this

catastrophe, this apocalypse has failed. Caldwell is the prime example of how humans have failed in this situation. And the fires, the shadows kind of, I feel are the same, same thing that Carrie's trying to say. The fires are just remnants of the humans attempts to fix this problem. And it hasn't worked. You have parks and you have Caldwell. And that's kind of the only two approaches the humans have.

tried that there are two approaches in his book. Then you have Justin who is the outlier and then she survives, but ultimately she's going to die of either starvation or something. She can't live forever, right? Like in this new world. But I thought that was interesting and that even there, the last beacon of hope and there's no pun intended, but Rosie, the last beacon of hope to get them to what's called beacon ultimately becomes a prison for Justin and Caldwell and parks are dead.

Slava (20:25.688)
to your

point that I want to go back a second, Abby, you mentioned that Pandora's box is really only touched on in the front end and the back end. I was trying my best in a previous episode to like articulate that, but that's how I felt also. I know the story of Pandora's box and how Pandora is basically Eve, if you will, in this early stage myth. And she like lets all these things out in the world because the gods strict her and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like waiting.

for this thing to happen. So I'm constantly like filtering the book through Pandora's box. And I'm like, this, this doesn't really line up and okay, don't know the next thing. And so I'm like waiting. So the way you put it is much more articulate. And that was like what I was trying to describe, I think, because I was like waiting for this to happen. And then at the end I was like, she lets out the spores. Okay, got it. Now I understand. But like, it was this gap for me. I was like, okay, I'm expecting it. Even like the, name of the book, right?

the girl with all the gifts and they define it. think the story set up at the beginning with the name structure and like, hey, this is what this name is. This is what it means. okay. That was a strong opener for me.

Yeah, I think Carrie did a wonderful job putting it together. I mean, I could nitpick some things and I think I put a few nitpicks in the previous episode, but for me, it was just enough. And despite what Jonathan said, and it's true that it didn't dawn on me how much of the myth was used. I even saw less of it than you guys are now describing. I liked the subtlety of it. Preparing for this episode, I thought over the disagreements Jonathan and I had and kind of the back and forth, but we liked.

Slava (22:05.91)
what Jonathan didn't like at first. I'm like, all right, let me be more objective than just, really, really liked the book. And I think one of the aspects of the writing is the subtlety of Pandora's box and some of the other, maybe even feminist kind of views of Justinu that are thrown in. And then the whole hope of humanity, all the themes are subtly sprinkled in.

But enough for you to get hooked. so as I thought about it yesterday and this morning, and as you guys are now talking, it was confirmed, if you will. I'm like, yeah, the things that Carrie did were subtle. And for some that might be boring or not their way to write a book, but for me it was, I thought it was cool. I liked the subtlety of these things placed in to the story.

So we've got these things called SideQuest Abbey, where we take a fun question and we ask it in relation to the book. So here's the side quest. You're a zombie survivor, you're ultimate team. You get to form the survival team in the world, girl with all the gifts. What three characters from any book, movie or game would you bring along with you? And do you think that they'd help you survive and thrive?

in this fungal apocalypse.

So I thought about this a lot and it's probably gonna be really a nerdy answer. But I was originally thinking you're here for the nerd.

Jonathan (23:37.068)
We're here for the nerds. Yeah.

Yeah, so I was really gonna say Ellie from The Last of Us and then I thought about it and I think I'm gonna go with Abby from The Last of Us Part 2 because I liked her better, hot take. then also I'm doing a rewatch of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and it's always been one of my favorite shows so I'm gonna go with Buffy because she's really good at fighting things and not getting bitten.

Have you guys seen Seven Deadly Sins? It's an anime.

the anime. I never finished it, but I've definitely watched probably like half of it.

Okay. Okay. So I was thinking Bon from Seven Deadly Sins because he is completely immortal and you could like burn him to ash and somehow he would form back together. So I was like, he'd be a good one.

Slava (24:15.982)
Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

Jonathan (24:32.526)
Seems like a good team.

Yeah, so I went the opposite of subtle because this is what I was thinking about this morning and I came up with my answers this morning. And so the opposite of subtle for me, I'm like, okay, story about zombies. There's a movie adaptation. Let's go with movies. And so I went with 1980s, 90s action flicks because they were so over the top. There was the opposite of subtle. So I replaced the characters. So for me, Parks.

The guy who would play parks would be Dutch from Predator, Arnold Schwarzenegger from Predator, Ripley from Alien. Cause I think she's a fantastic female protagonist. Instead of a Justin new, it would be Ripley. And I thought about what movie doctor eighties or nineties would be fun to have around. That's not a Caldwell. That's more ethical and cares about the world. I was like, Ian Malcolm from Jurassic park. That's my movie team.

to fight the apocalypse Dutch Ripley and Dr. Malcolm.

Well, I did something similar. So I want, what's his name, from Project Hail Mary. What's the guy's name? I want him as the doctor. That's my doctor character. Gonna keep him around, see how that goes. Because he's also kind of an engineer. And so I'm wondering if he can whip something up from us. But I went heavy on the science. So I also want Bulma from Dragon Ball Z.

Jonathan (26:03.564)
to see if they can come up with something maybe we can get off this planet. And then, because I was thinking about Dragon Ball Z, I'm also going to take Goku, because then we can destroy any zombies from a distance if we need to. mostly Dragon Ball Z with a mixture of Project Hail Mary for me.

Alright.

Trying to leave the planet.

Have you read Project Halle Mary, Abby?

have not, it's on my list. I saw that it was, you guys talked about it.

Slava (26:32.844)
Yeah, it's a fantastic book. good. Very emotional ride. Because I read his, well read, I started reading Martian and I couldn't get into it. I liked the movie, okay. And then I was like, all right, let me read the book. And for some reason I couldn't get into it and so I put it down. And then one of our other buddies who comes on the podcast with Spencer, he said, you have to read Project Hail Mary.

And we kind challenged him to get on a podcast and said, Hey, you lead one of these things for us. And so that's the book he picked. from just like with this one, chapter one to chapter end, I was hooked. It's really, really well done. Patient is great. Emotional aspects are awesome. think character arcs are great. And the ending is bittersweet. It's a happy ending, but it's a little bit bittersweet.

It's also a white room novel, which both of us hadn't read in a long time, where it just mostly takes place in one room and then flashbacks of like piecing the story together. Cause the guy's on a spaceship, right? Like, and he wakes up. It's that aspect too, where you're like, so it's man against himself and also reflecting on like what got him to this point and the amnesia that he has to like, which is like one of the story elements. He's like slowly trying to remember all the things.

which is then kind of a mystery for you as the reader going, why did he get here? What is he doing? What is his mission? And so like those questions come up pretty early on, which is nice. It was a fun use of amnesia, honestly.

Yeah, and we didn't spoil anything for you.

Jonathan (28:13.304)
That's like chapter three. Chapters one through three.

Cool, yeah that sounds like a good one.

If you're enjoying today's podcast, be sure to rate the show to help others discover it and join us in building this casual book club together.

So let's talk about pacing a little bit because for Jonathan, as he already alluded to, didn't take off until 36. I thought it was fine. I liked it. I already said that. How did you, Abby, feel about the pacing of the story?

So I listened to the audiobook actually. I was interested from the beginning. I think the narrator did a really good job and I was super into it. I loved it the whole time.

Slava (28:53.976)
Did you listen to the one with the music ambience or just a straight read? Cause there's two versions of the audio book.

It had some music.

Okay, that's the one I listen to.

like the audio or the narrator. She did a good job.

Yeah, I feel like I've heard her read other things, but I don't know exactly what they were. But yeah, she's definitely a good one.

Slava (29:16.234)
A narrator can make it or break it. For Spencer, he really hates Nick Podell for some reason. He's the guy that's read... Name the wind. Name the wind and two others that we listen to.

100%.

Jonathan (29:22.168)
code L.

Jonathan (29:29.688)
Yeah, I love Nick Pudell. He's great. Shout out Nick.

I'm okay with Nick Fadal, but Spencer can't stand him. The ones that I've hated are nonfiction books. For some reason, if you get just a boring guy who doesn't have any acting chops, which is fine, his voice is usually used for more straight technical books. But if you can't make a technical book or a history book sound even a tiny bit exciting, I don't know how these people get jobs.

I start a book if I cannot stand that narrator's voice I know immediately. And I do also have one specifically that I... name... Rebecca Saler. She mostly does like, romantic stuff and I kind of haven't been reading that as much for a few years. But yeah, the second it's like, this is Rebecca Saler. I'm like, no, we're done.

Everyone needs a narrator to hate I guess but I looked up Finty Williams who read the girl with all the gifts Maybe the book that you heard her in was Winnie the Pooh. She's done a lot of those

No.

Jonathan (30:38.444)
Yeah, she's got like 10 of these on here.

Wow, I didn't know there were 10 Winnie the Pooh books.

Neither did I. Winnie the Pooh, Pooh Goes Visiting. Winnie the Pooh, just that's the title. Winnie the Pooh, Pooh Invents a New Game. We've got Winnie the Pooh, The House at Pooh Corner. And the list goes on. Wow.

Well, let's stop the list there.

New ideas for next podcast.

Jonathan (31:09.004)
Yeah, just Winnie the Pooh books. Tigger comes to the forest. Anyway. So let's talk character arcs. How did you feel about the character arcs that took place in the book from Melanie to Justin new to Caldwell, Parks to Gallagher? Like what did you enjoy them? Did you hate one of them? What was your, what was your take? Hot takes are welcome by the way.

Amazing.

Abby (31:33.038)
Okay, I think Sergeant Parks was probably my favorite, not my favorite character, but like my favorite arc, because I feel like he had more of a redemption arc. At first was like, this guy's awful. He's like beating these children basically and like screaming at them. And then he ends up starting to care for Melanie too. I thought that one was really cool. Obviously Dr. Caldwell sucks the whole time. Yes.

And Justin is great the whole time. I really like Melanie as well. And I like how she gets, you know, more, like they start trusting her more and she just kind of gets stronger and is able to use her knowledge and skills to like help everybody.

Did you ever think that she was going to turn before the end of the book, Melanie?

I thought she might end up biting somebody and then I think she would have felt really bad and maybe run off, but I didn't think she was gonna like end up being a terrible person or anything.

Nice. Were there any parts of the plot or elements that surprised you in your first read?

Abby (32:44.814)
I was really surprised once they hit the wall, the wall of spores. And I was like, wait, this is crazy. And then the pods that were just piled up dead bodies of hungries or something. I was like, so that I think was a turning point where I was like, oh, this is really bad. There's really no hope for humanity here.

What I want to know is, I don't remember it answering the question of why all the bodies were there. They just kind of kept coming here to die. So that was a question that I had.

Yeah, I don't think it explained that. It's like piles, piles of bodies.

It's time to die. guess I'm gonna go here. Yeah.

drawing the pile.

Jonathan (33:33.26)
Yeah. there's the pile. Now I can die. So the ending of the book, we have this philosophical trolley car problem, right? Like, was it right? Was it wrong for Melanie to do what she did? Now I understand we're doing Pandora's box. So like it has to go one way. She has to let the spores out, right? But in terms of a little bit of moral dilemma, do you let the humans that you're befriended survive? You know, are there other humans in the world or do we just let the spores out like Melanie did?

Was it right? Was it wrong? Any other thoughts on that? Cause it's kind of like a, I'd say it's like a heavy ending. At least for me, it left me conflicted where it's like, I get what she's doing, but she's also a child still. And I don't know if she's thought through all of the ramifications of this decision. Now granted, this is a book. Slava gets on me for this. This is what I was talking about earlier, where I think ahead, thinking like longer strides. So this this question to me is like, well, you know, thinking through.

Yes, there are kids now, but could they recreate society in some way that doesn't like have to be an an nihilistic decision, if you will. You know, she's a child. She doesn't have all the information yet in terms of like how to survive as a hungry human and things like that. So anyway, enough of my babbling thoughts and ideas on the trolley car problem at the end that Melanie makes her decision on.

I guess I didn't think about her. like she's still a child and she could have, she could have waited, I guess. I don't know that there was really an option for humanity, but I guess she could have waited and seen like how it's gonna play out. are they actually like, are these spores inevitable instead of just burning everything? I guess I didn't think about that before.

Cause I was like, yeah, Melanie's true, it? She's right. She's the best. But yeah, she could have waited for sure. And just like seen, like obviously there was no cure. Like humanity probably couldn't have survived, but she didn't have to go kill them all basically.

Jonathan (35:46.41)
Right. Right. Well, and we get such a zoomed in view of like where this takes place. We don't know what's happening in Asia and Russia and America. So what, I mean, somebody else could have created maybe not a cure, but like something, or they could have made bunkers and like could have had like two camps, like the hungry humans on one side and like helping them stay satiated and fat and whatever.

Like there were just, there are more options and I didn't feel like there was an urgency to like, have to burn this down again. I understand it's Pandora's box, but this is how I, come at books and, Slava, do you want to, do you want to berate me now with your, with your response?

I don't think so. think you've been berated enough. Fair. Let's do another fun side quest. If you guys had to cast the perfect movie adaptation, who would play the top characters? We have here Melanie, Justin, and Caldwell, but I say our five main characters for Caldwell and Parks included, who would be in your movie adaptation? Jonathan Starrassov?

Fair enough.

Jonathan (36:56.334)
I don't know how to say his name, but I've got the perfect parks. It's the guy from Peaky Blinders, Silam something or other. You know who I'm talking about? How do you say his name?

I don't remember. It's Celtic, isn't it?

Yeah. So it's crazy. Yeah. I have to IMDB his name and then I'll try to slaughter it for you. Cillian Murphy.

It might be Killian.

It's Killian Murphy.

Jonathan (37:22.112)
Okay, Killian Murphy, he would be Parks. That's my go-to Parks. I think he'd do a great job having that emotional journey. He's also very stoic and I'd love to see him get more emotional. We see a little bit of that in Peaky Blinders, but I'd like to see more of it. As for Caldwell, who's the woman who plays Ratchet? I literally just know these people by character. Nurse Ratchet from Ratched. Sarah

Sarah Paulson?

Sarah Paulson. Yeah, that's a good one.

I'd have her play Caldwell. As for Melanie, I don't know child actors right now. So I'm just, I'm going to try and pull like young Dakota Fanning. think that she'd do a good Melanie.

That's funny that you said that. was gonna say Elle Fanning, which is her sister when she was younger.

Jonathan (38:09.326)
What was that?

Jonathan (38:14.766)
Alright, so we're on the same path here. And then I need a Gallagher and I need a Justinu. So for Justinu, oh what's her name? I might use Zoe Deschanel to throw kind of like a wild card in here, because I don't think she's really done anything that's not Manic Pixie Dream Girl stuff, for the most part. And for...

Gallagher, who do I want to kill? Just for my own walls. Let's go with Sean Bean. He's too old for Gallagher, but we'll just go with Sean Bean anyway, just because. Because he needs to die in things. That's my crew. Killing Murphy for Parks. Sarah Paulson for Caldwell. Sean Bean for Gallagher. Zoe Deschanel for Justin U. Yes.

That's the only, that's the connection here. And then Young Dakota Fanning for Melanie. That's my, that's my grouping.

So Elle Fanning, when she was younger, I couldn't tell you any like, trial that-

Who were the child actors today? I don't know.

Abby (39:29.858)
I have no idea. Justinu? I'm like picturing the perfect person in my mind, but I was looking for this person and I can't. I couldn't figure out where she came from. So I was thinking maybe Zendaya?

Mmm.

would be cool. And I picture Parks as like a really muscular bald white guy. So I'm trying to think of like who's an actor.

Tom Hardy, he could just shave his head.

Or what's a the wrestler? I don't know

Slava (40:10.284)
The Rock?

No, not the,

You mean the movie The Wrestler?

No, no, the... John Cena.

Okay. Here we go. Nice.

Abby (40:24.846)
And then the the mom in hereditary Okay, Caldwell because I was trying to think of someone who could be like kind of creepy but also kind of like I picture her like really stirred with like a slick back bun and We have Gallagher. I don't don't really think much about Gallagher I would

Jonathan (40:51.033)
Nobody

Yeah. what? That's why he sh-

At first I was like, who are you talking about?

You need remember him.

I even remember him! Yeah, he's just some dude. I don't know. I don't know if I have one for Gallagher. Is that okay?

Jonathan (41:02.382)
quickly the dead are forgotten.

Slava (41:10.99)
That's okay. So keeping with the 90s, 80s theme, I went with 90s, 80s actors again. For Caldwell, I chose Glenn Close because she just seems like she could play a badass and not in the sense of like a good badass, just like a really bad, bad character. For Melanie, I went back and forth because I confined myself to 90s, 80s actresses.

That's okay.

Slava (41:39.982)
I was like Natalie Portman could play a young Natalie Portman can play Melanie. And for Justin who I thought who was really loved and played lovable characters, but also played some bad-ass women in the nineties. So Julia Roberts came to mind. yeah. For her, Bruce Willis is Parks in my head. I picked Bruce freaking Willis. Yeah. All the muscular and you know, and then I had to look him up. That's why you guys saw me.

Check us out. Check us out.

Slava (42:10.306)
putzing around on the keyboard just now. had to look him up. For Gallagher, somebody who could play sort of a wimpy guy, sort of kind of a guy who doesn't know himself and could play a little bit of a weakling, although Gallagher gets a little bit better throughout the book, I thought of Giovanni Ribisi. You guys remember him?

He was in the boiler room and that's all I remember him. And the boiler room was like a nineties movie where he played this kid who was duped into working for stockbrokers and he had a bad relationship with his dad and he was kind of a can get right. And then it turns out this job where he started to excel at and feel good about himself, they were all corrupt. It was a front. They were just stealing money from their investors. I actually pictured him when I was reading the book.

It's like this guy reminds me from the guy from Boiler Room for some reason. And I remember that movie specifically, because I watched it and I thought it was a pretty good movie in the 90s. That's my cast that I'm submitting to the studio.

gonna make one addendum to my group. I'm gonna swap out Zoe Deschanel for Anya Josephine Taylor-Joy, the gal who played... Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking like, I don't actually think Zoe would do a very good job at Miss Justin. And then I was like, who could be, who could do this? And then I was thinking about her. So she'd be the gal that I'd swap out. I think we got the makings of a movie here, Friends.

Taylor Joy, Shay Fave.

Abby (43:39.054)
Good choice.

I so we've got a writer. We're all in marketing. We're going to get this done.

Yeah.

Marketing, you do anything in marketing.

That's right. If you do marketing, you do it all. Those are the rules these days. So this is the point in the tale, Abby, where we discuss themes. So want to hear your thoughts on some of the different themes that are discussed in the book. We have a number of them listed. I will list them out quickly. But if you came across something else while you were reading it, by all means, throw that in the mix here. So some of the themes that Slava and I talked about and addressed.

Jonathan (44:18.976)
as like things that we saw were adult fear of a monstrous child, the apocalypse as a literary means to confront humanity's sins, defining human and are we really so different from the monsters we are against? And then the hard necessity of reason versus the emotional comfort of empathy. So those are the four that we noticed, but if you notice anything else, like by all means throw it out there.

Not at the moment, but I'll think on it. Those are all good.

We usually pick one of these and have a discussion around it in terms of the book. So which one of these sounds like something you'd like to unpack a little bit with here as we wind this episode down.

Let's do the defining human are really so different from monsters.

Okay, very good. So in the book for a recap for the listeners, we come to find out that Melanie is like a Gen 2 hungry where her parents birthed her and so the fungus has infected her mind in a specific way that allows her to at least minimally or maximally, however you want to slice it, pun intended on that one, ends up being able to restrain her impulse that the

Jonathan (45:35.47)
Gen one hungries have, and so the big question in the book is like, well, she's the new type of human and the current version of human, the ones that we are, couldn't survive in the post-apocalyptic world that is displayed for us. So, is she really human or has she become a mutant or a monster like an X-man of sorts, but zombie version? That's today's discussion on the theme. What makes someone human?

I mean, would say that, I mean, she's somewhere in the middle, obviously, like we keep talking about that, but she, and especially like you see her perspective in the beginning and she's just like, she seems like a normal girl. She has some aspects of being human and the fact that she's able to like restrain herself, she definitely like has that emotion, the human emotion, and that shows that they can grow. I know the other.

The other Hungries are a little, they seem a little less human, but I think if Melanie could teach them, and she has Miss Justin who teaching them as well, then they could be a little more human.

What makes her human for me, and I do believe and I agree with you, there's a mixture. She's like both and. Is her ability, Melanie's ability to think, self-reflect. She has emotions, intellect. She has a curiosity to her to think back to different lessons. Ms. Justin who has taught them. She talks about her interactions with other kids, her interactions with parks. She watches people interact.

So she's constantly learning like a kid would a normal kid in a non-apocalyptic wasteland sitting in a classroom would pick out the teacher she likes would be wary of the teachers. That's that's mean to her will reflect on what she did with Johnny and Susie at lunch. And then if she finds in this example, the stories of the Greek myths interesting and somehow resonated with her because of something that happened in her family.

Slava (47:46.316)
A normal kid would interact with this environment, this information she's being given in the same way. But in this world, she also wants to eat man flesh. So that's kind of like, the, that's the twist, right? Because she's a zombie.

All right, I'll be the bad guy here. I, just to create a little drama for the show, I see Melanie like a leper. So lepers were purposefully not allowed to live with humans or other people because they were too infectious and they had to make their own camps. They had to make their own societies, if you will, because they were too infectious. so although she has human

Ha ha.

Jonathan (48:30.4)
elements and she was born a human, think that based on the science of the book, she's actually a parasite human of sorts that is like not, like I would not, scientifically I would not classify her as a human. Specifically because she currently has an incurable disease. It is genetically, from our understanding, genetically altered her impulses to function differently than

the resources that a human needs, which is why she can burn the thing at the end of the book and like survive. But as humans, we can't, which I think is evidence that she's not human because the humans die when the things come out, the spores. So, well, I think that there can be some compassion for Melanie, you know, assuming this all happened. I think that she's more of a leper, like she and her leper friends, although they're overrunning the world.

should find a way to survive in a new society that we can create trade agreements with and tax each other and you know.

Dr. Caldwell.

Slice of Rune open.

Jonathan (49:39.382)
I'm not saying slice her brain open.

Yeah, so he's not Dr. Caldwell, he's Dr. Caldwell's son. That's just a shade removed from Caldwell.

Also, lepers are human.

Yeah. And here's the thing. I think you're taking it too literalistically. Like speculative fiction, science fiction, and this is science fiction horror something. It is a vehicle for exploring other questions.

I'm exploring. I jumped in Rosie and we're driving around.

Slava (50:09.304)
But the book is sidestepping real world questions or scenarios and presenting fantastical scenarios in order to ask other questions.

Scrape away. Abby, I agree. Leopards are human, but it's an incurable disease. Did you know that armadillos carry leprosy? No. Yeah, yeah, they do. It's weird. That's something.

That I would know, so.

Now you do. That's right. Let's just take the one fact that I presented that because Melanie, like let's just prove and validate or invalidate if Melanie is a human. And here's my argument. And then the council will rest their case. Melanie destroyed this wall of spores and she and her group survived. And the other ones, the other humans, if they're all in the equal playing ground until we validate or invalidate this.

could not survive in that environment. So is she human?

Abby (51:06.132)
Scientifically, no, she's not a human.

Thank you very much. The council rests our case.

But that was, but we were talking about emotionally.

But if we're talking about cold hard acts of a character, right?

Yeah, I was gonna say

Slava (51:22.52)
Caldwell's not human. Caldwell. Caldwell's not human either because she is cold and brutal and pragmatic to utilitarian. Forget pragmatic. She's utilitarian. And at the end you could say Melanie made a utilitarian choice. I will die on this hill. The book is asking a different question. Yeah, Melanie, you did a shitty thing, right? Like Melanie killed all the humans. That's in world, but we're...

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Slava (51:49.186)
We're discussing what Carrie, I think what Carrie is trying to posit, I may. And I think it's a different question. So.

What's the question?

Well, what is human? But again, you can't take it literally and say, well, she's a human because in world scientifically, she's a hybrid. Yes, that's a fact, indisputable. The question between the lines, you will, and Abby, back me up or correct me, it's a different question. It's not that black and white. It's not just a straight story. It's not a real world story, right? If this happened in real world scenario, then I think your point would have more validity, Jonathan.

But this is

It's a fake story so your point's invalid. okay, cool. Yeah, that's fine.

Slava (52:35.884)
Exactly for the thing that I said when I started my rebuttal is speculative fiction, science fiction creates fantastical scenarios to ask human questions.

Okay, let me bat this ball back at you guys then. Define what it is to be human. Give me the parameters.

I think you're going for scientifically human. And we're talking about emotionally human.

Yeah.

Slava (53:04.468)
And here on the podcast, people in the podcast here on the panel, we're all Christians. For our worldview, there is an overarching truth to capital T, what defines a human. We're made in the image of God. From that, something that Christians and non-Christians agree on, even materialist, like staunch anti-supernatural, anti-religious folks would agree that what makes a human a human is will, intellect, and emotion.

We just happen to believe that was imprinted upon us by a creator. But that's what makes a human a human. Abby?

Yeah, I mean...

Look, I already took the bad guy role. Just go ahead and defend yourselves, folks. I died on this flaming sword or flamethrower. That's what it is.

Flaming pods of spores. from a Christian perspective, God didn't make the hybrid zombies. I mean, like hypothetically, yeah, like she would not be human. like from, yeah, but this is again, like a story and sci-fi.

Jonathan (53:57.89)
Zombies.

Jonathan (54:19.17)
You guys argument is flawless.

But yeah, I mean, so we're just it's just questioning. Yeah, I mean, it's basically everything that Slava said, but it's just questioning like.

Don't just side with him. It's gonna go to his head.

I think it's just asking what the like, how would you define human? And like, do you have empathy for this character? Like, is she human enough for you to

So I posed this in one of the previous episodes. There was a woman, I want to say in the 60s or 70s, who had an immunity to tuberculosis, I think it was. And the thing is, she was going around living her life normally. And the problem was she was causing tuberculosis in other people and they were dying. Yeah. And so they had to make the decision. Have you heard this before?

Abby (55:12.108)
No, I haven't. but I was like, wow.

And so they, they like captured her and locked her up and they had this ethical dilemma of like, she's fine, but she's killing people inadvertently. What do you do? She like, these are the questions that it's like, someone has to make a hard decision. I'm not saying we should necessarily Caldwell, but I'm not saying we shouldn't either.

Here's my rebuttal to that. So take that example and put it into, no, put it in this world. So in this world, in this scenario, the women are speaking about 98 % of the world has tuberculosis or is tuberculosis immune? And then you have 2 % running around in little self-contained colonies are affected by tuberculosis, they're not immune. And then if we're combining the scenarios,

Put her in a leprechaun.

Slava (56:06.454)
In this scenario, you have a little girl who is immune to tuberculosis. She kills everybody else that doesn't have that immunity gene. And now the whole world is either hungries who are fully infected or like the children are immune. That's how I see putting those two scenarios together. It doesn't back you up. We're talking about is this person, whether you're tuberculosis woman in a world.

where tuberculosis is a run amok or this little girl who has a zombie gene, but it's kind of immune to it. So that's how the correlation I see between the two scenarios. The question still stands and Abby and I are right in both scenarios. These people are human.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So my facts are a little wrong. wasn't tuberculosis. It was typhoid. But they did quarantine her. And she escaped the first time, actually. And she spent nearly 30 years in isolation because she was causing this in other people. She infected 51 people, three of whom died.

Only three. Meh.

So.

Abby (57:14.894)
I mean I guess they're Yeah. But I don't know. I didn't say it was easy. She's still human even if she carries typhoid fever.

Not so easy, huh?

But she's still human.

Slava (57:30.22)
You

Abby's getting a kick out of this. yeah. It's the craziest story. Healthy carrier of typhoid fever. Carrying the bacteria, but showing no symptoms. Wild. Audience, is Melanie human? Drop it in the comments. Let us know.

Are you Team Justinny or Team Caldwell? Pretty much you're saying.

No, that's not what I'm saying. We're just, I'm not saying slice people's brains up.

You're putting words on my mind.

Jonathan (58:00.086)
I mean, sense.

Put him in camps. Build some camps in California, get it up all the people and just put him in.

in limper

Jonathan (58:09.138)
And tax them as well, is what he said.

Yeah,

confiscate the property maybe

I said we could tax each other. the way, if you rewind this episode and go back, I spelled out two societies living in harmony together and having trade agreements and taxing each other is what I said. So, you know, you're like, you're you're putting words in my mouth. You're going to do great on this podcast.

Abby (58:35.97)
Ha ha

Tariffs, this should put tariffs, 25 % tariffs.

boy. Alright, here we go.

The feudal system.

Barter only. The problem is everything we barter is now infected from them to us. Oh man. Oh my gosh. Good stuff. Well, as this episode wraps up here, Abby, we want to thank you for your recommendation and joining us on the show. Just as a reminder to everyone, you can find Abby on Instagram at Books and Cranies 2023. And you can also find her on Pango Books, which I didn't know was a thing, but I'm going to look up now.

Jonathan (59:16.088)
pangobooks.com slash bookstore slash books dash and dash crannies. So go look her up, buy some of her books, follow her on Instagram. We look forward to your next recommendation. Have you back on the show.

Cool, yeah, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. Hey, before we go, can I ask you a question? Cool. My husband and I were talking about who we would put on our teams if we were in a zombie apocalypse, and he said Deadpool. And so I was wondering if you thought that Deadpool would heal himself from a zombie bite or if he would get infected.

It was.

Jonathan (59:59.235)
Man.

I think he could heal himself, right? I mean, all we know about Deadpool, all I know about Deadpool is he could heal himself from injury and he's unkillable. But what about his genes? Will his genes absorb the zombie?

No, no, no, no, he has to be able to heal himself. And I think Wolverine too, like has to be able to heal himself. So if he was in this place, they're basically unkillable. So my understanding of the X-Man science, if you will, is their genetic code is locked in a stasis. And someone's going to at me in the comments about this being incorrect, but that's fine. And so like it always reverts back to original genetic structure to heal them. That's my understanding. So I think-

that they'd be able to heal themselves.

That's what I was thinking as well, I'm like, don't know if they've ever had a zombie bite infection. mean, we need to ask someone at Marvel.

Jonathan (01:00:53.87)
Yeah, that's the crossover that we didn't know we needed

Correct, yeah. But this is what I've been thinking about the past couple days. I'm like, huh, Deadpool zombies.

That's a great question. What other questions do you have? We didn't even ask you.

I think that was it. That was my big one.

okay. Nice.

Slava (01:01:13.774)
All right, folks, make sure to share this episode with fellow book adventurers. It helps more listeners discover side quests. And join us next time for more story adventures. Until then, happy questing.