00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Unknown
Welcome back, everyone, to the Creative Success podcast. I'm your host, Joe. Hi. It has been a while. I am slightly. Actually, you know what? I'm not embarrassed. It has been a while since I uploaded the last episode to this podcast, but this is kind of a passion project and as soon as it becomes an obligation, it's not going to be good anymore.
00;00;30;21 - 00;00;53;03
Unknown
So I really want to just make this a habit of releasing the episodes when I have a really good episode to share. And I'm happy to say that today. I do indeed have a good episode to share with you all. So thank you for tuning in. Are you someone who maybe you get bored easily, even if you're at the peak of your game?
00;00;53;10 - 00;01;27;29
Unknown
Maybe you've got a career that is really, really good money and really prestigious, but you still want to try some other new things. If you're that kind of person, you're going to love. The interview that I have today with Jonathan from Penicuik Wilderness. Jonathan has an interesting story to tell indeed. He is actually a doctor who has decided that despite the stereotype of doctor being the peak of prestigious careers, he wanted to do something else.
00;01;28;00 - 00;01;47;25
Unknown
Jonathan has built his own dovetail log cabin from scratch. He leads expeditions. I'm not going to cut I'm not going to say everything that happens in this episode right now, because, of course, I want you to listen to it. This is really an interesting guy. I was so grateful that he spent the time with me to make this interview.
00;01;47;26 - 00;02;07;03
Unknown
Jonathan, I'm so sorry that it took so long to get this episode up. But like I said, it's worth it. So let's get into this next story in the Creative Success podcast.
00;02;07;06 - 00;02;29;17
Unknown
Welcome back everyone, to the Creative Success Podcast. I'm your host, Joe High, and joining me today is Jonathan from Penicuik Wilderness. Thank you for joining me today, Jonathan. Thanks, Joe. Nice to do this with you. Yeah, I'm glad that we finally get to put a face to the to the voice and face on your YouTube channel. But now I can actually where we can see each other, but I guess the audience can.
00;02;29;18 - 00;02;48;17
Unknown
So they just get to put a voice to the face. Another voice? Yeah. Well, Jonathan, I wanted to talk to you because I think you're doing something really cool on your YouTube channel especially, which is where I where I first encountered your work. I know you have other endeavors that I really want to talk to you about as well.
00;02;48;17 - 00;03;11;19
Unknown
You've got your adventuring business, correct? Yep. You lead you lead expeditions and whatnot. Mm hmm. So I'd love to talk to you about these things. And and why you're why you're doing them. But for those who are listening, who maybe aren't quite familiar with you or haven't heard of your your work before, how would how would you introduce yourself?
00;03;11;22 - 00;03;36;11
Unknown
My name is Jonathan. I, I grew up in eastern Canada, so on sort of the Atlantic coast of the country of Canada, just north of the state of Maine. I grew up around a multitude of different people who sort of had wilderness interests, I would say, whether it be guiding woodworking, forestry, logging and then some other people around me who had, I'd say, some sense of adventure in terms of travel.
00;03;36;12 - 00;04;13;12
Unknown
My grandparents were World War Two veterans and then some other mentors who found somewhat creative ways to go through life that didn't necessarily fit the more typical 9 to 5. So in short, I think all of those influences led me to a position where I wanted to have a fair amount of control about what I do in life, and I think a lot of what I'm driven by is sort of developing a life that gives me the freedom to do things I want without being tied to things or something like whether it's a mortgage or a job or well, maybe those would be two of the big things.
00;04;13;12 - 00;04;36;25
Unknown
So that drives me. And as a result of that, and so I'm actually a medical doctor is my real job kind of. But I do help the YouTube channel where I've moved off grid. I have sort of another side hustle of working on some expeditions and leading some expeditions on my own and and a few other things. But that's, I guess, a short summary of who I am and what I'm up to.
00;04;36;27 - 00;04;57;03
Unknown
Yeah, and this is a really unique position because it's not it's not many people who would leave a field, like a medical field to do something totally different. That in and of itself is just like a change in career that doesn't happen very often. So not many people would leave a career like that. You know, it makes money.
00;04;57;06 - 00;05;18;06
Unknown
It takes a lot of hard work to get into it in the first place. And so you have you have a vision that you said you want some more freedom even beyond that. So can you give us some examples? And you said monetary freedom like freedom of mortgage and whatnot, But some might even say that you have monetary freedom if you're making more money.
00;05;18;08 - 00;05;34;20
Unknown
You probably encountered people who said like, well, you're a doctor, you're making money that way. Why would you want to do something that is riskier and could make less money and you see that as an increase in freedom, where some people might see that as actually an increase in risk and less freedom? What would you say to that?
00;05;34;21 - 00;05;58;10
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I'm still in medicine. I'm ten years finished medical school, so I've been working as a doctor for ten years and when I started working, I was working a lot like two or three weeks straight at a time. A lot of that was motivated by the debt at the time. So then I got to a point where I was able to have my debt essentially paid off.
00;05;58;13 - 00;06;20;25
Unknown
And then I asked myself like, What do I want to do now that I don't have that tie to debt? And I looked at a lot of people who were doing the medical road that I was on who would then take on more debt in the form of a big house or a second car or whatnot. And I and I just said, that's not what I want to do.
00;06;20;27 - 00;07;04;03
Unknown
And then I realized I had these other passions of the wilderness just generally. And I'd gotten in the interim sort of this job as an expedition medic. So I was doing medical support for a company who would take clients climbing these mountains all over the world. So I was gaining that experience. And then I said, Well, why don't I just try to carve out something in life that integrates my, you know, I do love medicine, or at least I'd like it most of the time with being outside, with living a life that doesn't attach me to a big mortgage or financial payments or stuff that that keeps me linked to money or something like this.
00;07;04;05 - 00;07;27;26
Unknown
So I guess to answer your question about why I left, medicine sounds much like medicine. It's that I'm carving a life that integrates that with my other passions. And you know, I think looking forward, I don't know where that's going to go. I think medicine will probably always be a part of it. And I don't know if it's going to by more or less over time, maybe less, but that'll depend on the success of my other endeavors and, and the Expedition gig.
00;07;27;26 - 00;07;50;28
Unknown
Like, part of that is rooted in medicine because I can provide medical support to people that are on expeditions. So I think that aspect of my medical career, I can't see that ending. I think that that is also a really creative way to use that skill, that education, that that career that you have. And I don't think most people would have thought of that.
00;07;51;00 - 00;08;08;00
Unknown
My wife and I, we work weddings for much of our married life, which is hasn't been that long. We've been married going on for years, but a lot of the clientele that we would work with were in the medical field not to flex, but we were higher priced vendors. So usually people with higher income where we're our clients.
00;08;08;00 - 00;08;33;24
Unknown
But it just interested me when I reached out to you, I actually didn't know that you were in medicine. I reached out because you were just doing something cool building this cabin and leading expeditions. And when you told me that you were also in medicine, I'm just like, Why would you do anything else? So it's really it's really intriguing to me that you actually took something that, like it was already kind of sufficient, you know, like you could have just been doing medicine and nothing else.
00;08;33;26 - 00;08;54;20
Unknown
A lot of people do. I applaud you for that. I admire you for that. When you decided to integrate the expeditions and the YouTube channel here, how long have you have you been doing that? Actually, yeah. So in five years now or and then let's say a doctor for ten, I was doing expedition medic work probably since 2017.
00;08;54;21 - 00;09;16;01
Unknown
So five, six years. And the YouTube, I think maybe late 2019, although I'm not sure on those dates. So let's say three years or so on YouTube. Okay, So, so it's been long enough to know whether or not you want to continue it, right? Yeah. In terms of YouTube and building an off grid life in a cabin and whatnot, and I love that.
00;09;16;01 - 00;09;47;07
Unknown
And I want to continue down that road and have ideas of where that could go. But I'm also try to be flexible to the divergences of the road so I can better term that can can happen. That can be good for the expedition medicine thing. I'll probably continue that, although I kind of want to take that in a direction where I'm less a medic on another company's trips and maybe more fed into doing some of my own leading trips of my own, which I've started to do more formally.
00;09;47;09 - 00;10;07;22
Unknown
That is something I've done a lot in the past in an informal way. And then the typical doctor thing, like for now, I'm continuing and I stopped. Okay. When you did decide to start doing these things in addition to medicine, what were the challenges in the beginning phases of that? And please don't tell me that there weren't any, because this will be a really boring episode if that's the case.
00;10;07;26 - 00;10;33;02
Unknown
Yeah, No. So one of the challenges in medicine, I think, is that there's a, a culture of you work all the time and there's sort of a somewhat, I'd say, of a hierarchy within medicine. The doctors who give their everything to medicine and do the long shifts and on call and work in all the different settings. They're the best version of a doctor or something like that.
00;10;33;04 - 00;10;54;07
Unknown
So I think some of it or to some extent the challenge is breaking from that because I think that comes with your end up being that guy to some extent who's different. And in kind of like you said, like you do put in a lot of time into becoming a doctor and then to not work full time at it probably.
00;10;54;07 - 00;11;25;09
Unknown
I have received some level of criticism for that. On the flip side, I think there's lots of people who work at type of physician life and recognize that it's not the healthiest. It's not it's certainly not all criticism, but there's some. So I say that was a bit of a challenge. And then being self-aware, too, it's like to leave that and there's probably some element of selfishness on my part that I'm pursuing other passions that, you know, arguably may not benefit people or at least benefit people in the same way as medicine.
00;11;25;11 - 00;12;01;23
Unknown
But then, you know, and to analyze that, I say to myself that and this is being maybe somewhat critical of Western medicine, but it's not all of the things that are done in Western medicine, I think are always in the best interest of people. I think through YouTube and through leading people into the wilderness, there's a I'd say it's more of a preventative approach to wellness that you can sort of show people that there are ways to live that are maybe more natural or more healthy rather than I think there's a large component of Western medicine that's reactive to disease rather than preventative.
00;12;01;26 - 00;12;19;16
Unknown
And so part of my motivation for YouTube is to show people that, hey, like you can grow your own food, you can build your own house, you don't need necessarily to have a mortgage from a bank to live, and you can live in a small space. You don't need a large space and you can get by with less.
00;12;19;19 - 00;12;52;27
Unknown
And I think there's health and it's and psychological benefits to that. And and from a psychological perspective, I think that we as humans have sort of lost to a large degree this connection to nature and to the outdoors. And, you know, I don't think we necessarily understand what that's doing to us, but I don't think it's good even evil after 100 years in North America, like we were so much more intimately connected to nature, whether it be our heat sources, our food, our supply chains, like all of that, I would say we were very connected.
00;12;52;27 - 00;13;28;06
Unknown
And then over a relatively short period of time in terms of how long we've been around as humans, we've lost that. And like the average person today, probably wouldn't know how to treat a pear tree. Many of these things, some of the motivation that I had to do medicine, which is to help people, I think I'm trying to achieve that same goal through YouTube to an extent, but maybe from a different angle, and then from the taking or leading or assisting people in exploring the wilderness through expeditions and whatnot.
00;13;28;09 - 00;13;54;16
Unknown
I think that too is helping people foster connection to the world, into the wilderness, into nature that I feel is very important. And I feel to some extent is has been lost. And if I can help people rediscover that, that's very meaningful to me. This sounds really well thought out. Is this something that you intended to do from the beginning, like when you were in medical school, getting your degree, getting the education you needed?
00;13;54;16 - 00;14;10;27
Unknown
Were you thinking like, you know, I'm going to take this a step further or was it something that came about later on? I wouldn't say I was thinking about it at all in medical school, but I do think, you know, if you break down thinking to like your conscious level of thinking and then there's probably these deeper layers below that.
00;14;10;29 - 00;14;36;00
Unknown
So yeah, it can be hard to convey. But so before I went to medical school, I actually study forestry. So I in Canada you finish high school and then if you're going to go to university, you know, you pick whatever it is you want to study. So I just picked forestry, which is sort of the study of forest, let's say, because I knew I like being inside and then I get into a forestry degree and I recognize that my desire to do something that helped people was quite strong as well.
00;14;36;00 - 00;14;55;02
Unknown
And I didn't really feel that forestry, at least with my knowledge at the time, was going to let me accomplish that. So. So I left forestry, I didn't know what I was doing and then ended up stumbling my way into medical school somewhat following a friend of mine who was being pushed to do that. But I think all along I knew that I loved being outside.
00;14;55;02 - 00;15;22;23
Unknown
I knew I love, say, helping people. I think that just those deeper desires within me of connection to nature and people led me to where I am as much as I like planned to go there. This is really interesting me and it's right on par with what I really want to share in in these episodes. Like you're you're right on par with the kind of person I wanted to speak with because I'm making this show kind of out of selfish reasons, okay?
00;15;22;26 - 00;15;51;14
Unknown
Because I'm somebody who how does my wife say it? My wife does, herself included. She describes us as serial hobby producers, I think is the term that she used. We have a number of things that we like doing. I'm currently in a transition from I'm still a photographer. I still love being outside. I really like doing landscape photography, but I'm kind of transitioning away from weddings altogether and as kind of the moneymaker, I'm moving into real estate.
00;15;51;16 - 00;16;07;03
Unknown
In addition to that, we have our own property. I don't know if I told you when we were initially talking, but we have we have our own property that we we have like seven acres and we want to put a cabin up there right now. We have a tent, we have a canvas tent with a wood stove in it, which is loads of fun, even by itself.
00;16;07;03 - 00;16;31;13
Unknown
But we love to put like, you know, a proper structure up there, which is another reason why I, you know, run into channels like you so I'm making this podcast for kind of selfish reasons. I'm making it because I want to hear stories and hear ideas that other people have done, have put into action that take life out of the out of the typical pattern.
00;16;31;16 - 00;16;53;17
Unknown
And I'm assuming it's it's pretty similar in your country, but obviously in, you know, in America, it's pretty much you you graduate, you get a 9 to 5 and you work it and then you die, you know, and then you retire. Then you die. And being able to think outside that box and be like, okay, I'm like, what you're doing, you know, And I'm a doctor and I love it, but I want to do more.
00;16;53;17 - 00;17;22;10
Unknown
I want to incorporate my desire to care for people beyond just the office, the clinic. I'm not sure which facility you work at, but I'm going to expand people's health by getting them outside or getting them to think about, like maybe building their own place off grid or sharing what that's like. I mean, that that's brilliant. And just like that idea of thinking outside the box like that, that's that's exactly the kind of thing that I want to be shared on this show.
00;17;22;17 - 00;17;42;07
Unknown
So thank you for that. Let's keep going with this because it's really good. So I'm hearing a few goals that you had. You wanted you had some financial goals. You know, you got yourself out of debt and you didn't want to expand your lifestyle and such that you had more debt. So you were actually moving into like more of a downgraded lifestyle that was for monetary benefits.
00;17;42;09 - 00;18;03;13
Unknown
You are saying I want to be able to you said, I love how you said it. You said proactively take care of people's health, I think is what you said, like getting them outside and all this. Yeah. Yeah. What other goals did you have and what do you think you've accomplished so far? Like how how are you how is this working out for you so far?
00;18;03;15 - 00;18;29;02
Unknown
Good. I mean, it sounds good. Yeah. So what do they accomplish so far? I guess break that down in different ways, Like from the perspective of building an off grid cabin slash homestead, like for myself, like, there's things that that's accomplished for myself, like, so I've developed a skill set that I really didn't have much of. I feel that I have self sufficiency ability now that I didn't have before.
00;18;29;02 - 00;19;04;19
Unknown
So, you know, there's some personal things I've accomplished from from a YouTube perspective, like I think one of the coolest parts of YouTube and like my channels, it's a decent size, huge. But when you get to the point that you have people watching you from all over the world and saying things like what I'm doing, what I'm showing to them inspires them to to do something in the direction of self-sufficiency or in the direction of detaching from the I don't know, some people might call it the Matrix, but like from the the, the mainstream way of the extreme.
00;19;04;19 - 00;19;28;14
Unknown
Yeah, Yeah. Then they do that and they get some reward from that. And then I think that encourages them to go down that direction further. And ultimately I think that if I can to some extent motivate some number of people to live a life that's more healthy for them and by showing them that it's possible. So that to me that's something I've accomplished, that's good.
00;19;28;16 - 00;20;02;10
Unknown
And that fits with my ethos of wanting to help people from the leading people in the wilderness perspective. So I haven't really talked with enough detail like I started doing that type of work informally when I was like, I don't know, 14. I saw a group of friends every winter. We would go on this thing we called the Winter Camping Trip or the WCT, and it started out like we just took these backpacks and went into the woods in the middle of the Canadian winter and would spend three nights in tents.
00;20;02;12 - 00;20;22;12
Unknown
And then that evolved every year to something that we tried to do just a little more. So we went from tents to know tents to building shelters. And then as we got a little older with a little more financial means, we started going further away from our home area and picking some mountains. And so we went down to New Hampshire and did some mountains there.
00;20;22;12 - 00;20;47;12
Unknown
And so you see, you made it riskier and riskier as they made it harder and harder. Yeah, basically. And that's progressed to going and climbing Denali in Alaska and some of the some of the bigger mountains in North America. Denali, we were unsuccessful, although we're actually planning to go back this spring or summer. So that's a history in that realm.
00;20;47;12 - 00;21;19;11
Unknown
But then as I got doing it with more people, I think there's something very rewarding about someone who's picked this expedition they want to do. And for them, that could be a one day hike or it could be a multi week expedition. But the whole process of you pick the goal, you do all the preparation work, which is physical training, getting the gear, planning the routes, all that stuff and all that goes into that, and then helping them do that because I think that in itself is a rewarding thing.
00;21;19;13 - 00;21;42;23
Unknown
And then getting out in these expeditions in the wilderness and all the highs and lows emotionally that happened with that and the process of pushing oneself towards a target and and like you're not always successful, but sometimes you are. But I think no matter whether you achieve the tangible goal of the mountaintop or the end of the expedition or not, I think that develops character in people.
00;21;42;23 - 00;22;06;10
Unknown
And I think that's just such a rewarding thing to be a part of. I've got a few stories, like I took some people to. This is a show about stories. Feel free. Yeah, I've taken people to locations that have special personal significance to them and seen them upon getting there, like break down tears because of all of the work that they put in to accomplish a goal.
00;22;06;12 - 00;22;29;01
Unknown
I just find that so rewarding. Like I find using skills that I've developed to help someone accomplish something great that maybe they didn't think they were capable of doing and then seeing them reach that goal. It's immensely rewarding. Then when people do that and once they realize that, like I can do these type of things, and then I think it often leads to them picking other goals.
00;22;29;01 - 00;22;49;24
Unknown
And in sometimes the initial trip might be just a goal to climb this mountain, and that's their goal. But I think sometimes that translates into their life in the sense that the ability to persevere through difficult times on a mountain climbing trip can also show somebody that they can persevere through difficult times in their life. And so I think it can translate that way.
00;22;49;26 - 00;23;18;28
Unknown
I think the question was something about what have I accomplished? And I think the accomplishment of helping people accomplish things is rewarding. There is something about those kind of trips. They hit you on a soul level. I know exactly what you mean. I've been out been out West several times with some friends on, you know, backpacking trips to the national parks, Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Glacier, Banff, not exactly in your neck of the woods, but at least on your in your country.
00;23;19;00 - 00;23;44;10
Unknown
Yes. And I can tell you stories, too, of like, you know, the days where, like there were three of us out there and each one of us had a day where we needed the other two to take care of us. And just that camaraderie that's built there. There is something about being disconnected, being outside and doing something physical, climbing a mountain, walking, walking through divides and valleys and just It is amazing.
00;23;44;17 - 00;24;03;10
Unknown
Yeah, I feel like I could have a whole podcast just about talking how awesome it is to be outside and doing stuff like that. And I might add to that in the West makes a lot easier now in general than it was in the past. And there's people who have hard times, no doubt, and are people who have way too much for hard times in the current life.
00;24;03;12 - 00;24;19;17
Unknown
But I also think to some extent there's maybe some people who seek out the opportunity to push themselves. I think there's a thought there that I haven't quite unpacked. I know what you're talking about. And like I said, I've had days like when I taking my buddies, like one guy, he he packed too much and he was just too fatigued.
00;24;19;24 - 00;24;37;17
Unknown
So we started taking pieces out of his backpack and put them on our own packs, you know, And one guy put his pack on their front. So he had two packs on. And we were talking about that, and we were talking about how much camaraderie that builds and it tied back into life. And like, that's a lesson we wouldn't have been able to learn by just go into the office each day.
00;24;37;20 - 00;24;58;29
Unknown
Is that on theme with what you're trying to say anyways? Yeah, it's a theme, and my hesitation is I just recognize that a lot of people's lives in the present day are filled with challenges as they are. Do you think that people who are having hard times can be better prepared for those hard times by by stretching themselves in in other ways?
00;24;59;02 - 00;25;23;12
Unknown
So one thing I believe is that putting oneself into nature and some of the challenges that that brings is rewarding. So I think that and I think voluntarily doing that and then voluntarily pushing yourself to like not do something that's way beyond you, but to something that's a little bit beyond your comfort level and then achieving that and then going back to your comforts.
00;25;23;18 - 00;25;42;12
Unknown
Like, I think that's that's a psychologic rewarding thing to do. I think what we're dialing in on is the concept of accomplishment. And there's there's so much that is very easy to do in the Western world and in this in this modern era that, you know, you can accomplish a lot without trying very hard. And there's a place for that.
00;25;42;16 - 00;26;07;06
Unknown
But that feeling of accomplishment, that that feeling of I can do this, you need to stretch yourself a little bit to get that feeling. Yeah. And it sounds like that's that's like what you're trying to get people to experience. Like, hey, you can have this accomplishment. You can do this kind of thing where you can build your own little house in the woods or you can climb a mountain or, you know, whatever it it be in the context that we're talking about.
00;26;07;06 - 00;26;39;15
Unknown
Yeah. Like you want to inspire people to to be accomplished, to feel accomplished in whatever way is is for them. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing you say. And I think that's the very summary I do. I want whether it whether it's leading people in the wilderness and expedition or through building an off grid existence, I hope that there's a part of both of those things that allow people to find motivation to go accomplish something for themselves that may be able to motivate you towards.
00;26;39;18 - 00;27;01;04
Unknown
And then like aside from that, which is part of my motivation, like I also just intrinsically like doing these things. Like I of course I like being outside. I like from my own perspective, I like setting goals and accomplishing them. And I think that really motivates me from the building. The dovetail carving that it put together on YouTube.
00;27;01;04 - 00;27;27;27
Unknown
Like I was motivated by both people I knew and other YouTubers who went out and did this type of thing. And I think for me, like the hardest part was starting and it was probably one of the reasons starting was the hardest thing is it's like you don't think you can do it, and then you're like, Oh well, I'd never done this and I don't know how to run a chainsaw properly or something, or I don't know how to.
00;27;28;00 - 00;27;49;23
Unknown
There's a thousand things. I was able to for a period of time convince myself I didn't know how to do or wasn't going to be able to know how to do. But then it's like you just you just start. And for me, with the cabin, like the first big thing I did is I want a band song. It got some trees down and started building some lumber, and then that just sort of evolved into a cabin that I now live in.
00;27;49;25 - 00;28;07;05
Unknown
I would say the first step really in a lot of ways was hard because that was the step that once say, once I did that, it's like, okay, I'm going in now, and then you're committed. Yeah, you've started something and the band still costs some money for sure. And it's not that you need of an ensemble to build a cabin like you can.
00;28;07;05 - 00;28;26;16
Unknown
You can use round logs and an ax if you wanted to. But I just, I had a type of cabin that I'd seen before and was motivated to try to build, so I wanted to do that in part. It's just something I love doing. And then for me personally, I found motivation in my journey from seeing other people who did a similar thing to what I did.
00;28;26;16 - 00;28;40;24
Unknown
And I just said, You know what? If they can do it, I can at least try and maybe even do it. So that was your your contradiction to the voice that was saying you you don't know how to do this. You're like, Well, I don't, but I know that it can be done by other people, so why not me?
00;28;40;24 - 00;28;59;14
Unknown
Yeah, and like, you don't know how to do it when you start. And that's one of the reasons you start, is because if you don't start, you're not going to learn how to do it. And being open to failure and recognizing that failure is only failure if you if you give up. But if you learn from it and keep going, then it's a learning opportunity.
00;28;59;14 - 00;29;17;12
Unknown
And so, you know, if I if I look at this whole cabinet differently when I show it to anyone else, they say, Oh, wow, you people, they say it's a nice cabin. But when I look at it and I recognize a lot of things I could do differently, and so those are probably like mini failures. But to me it's like really it's motivation to do it again.
00;29;17;18 - 00;29;37;21
Unknown
And the cabin adult, although I love it, there are things about it that it would change. And, you know, I'd love to build another one in a maybe a bit of a different location. Was there ever a time when you were in this process where you were? You were like, really seriously considering not finishing it like the Dow was big enough for the failure was big enough for you?
00;29;37;21 - 00;30;02;11
Unknown
You're like, I think I think this is it. I don't know if I want to push through this. Is it really worth it? No, I don't think I ever was really serious. There were certainly days working at it where everything goes wrong, like just from a technical perspective, the bands of blades break and it's too cold and the engine doesn't start and you know, tractor's leaking fluid and it doesn't get you where you want it to go.
00;30;02;11 - 00;30;28;12
Unknown
And and then sometimes you're like, things would be a lot easier if I just went back to living in the apartment I was in, in the city I was living in. In a sense, but in another sense that I'm missing out on these tribulations or challenges that I think are ultimately much more rewarding. So so no, I never was going to give up, but there were some days where I might have said, okay, I'm quitting now because things aren't going my way and I'm just going to come back tomorrow and try again.
00;30;28;15 - 00;30;52;20
Unknown
So I want to settle on this for a little bit because pretty much every interview that I've done, there's been some talk of like, you know, how do you stay motivated? Do you ever feel imposter syndrome or something to that effect, which is kind of where we're at now that the idea of pushing through failure and it personally, that's something that I'm I'm struggling a lot with because there's a lot of things that have started recently that just bombed really hard.
00;30;52;20 - 00;31;11;25
Unknown
And now I just have to pick up the ashes and see where I can go from it. And I won't go into it. But like on a on a smaller scale, this podcast at the time of this recording hasn't quite launched yet. And one of the reasons is because I wanted to have I'll just tell you, I wanted to have a lot more interviews done in advance than I do right now.
00;31;12;01 - 00;31;30;16
Unknown
I have enough where I can start and I'm going to start, but I was hoping to have so many that I could start and be good for like six months if I if I couldn't find the money. Because it turns out it's a lot harder to invite people to be interviewed on a podcast that doesn't yet exist than I thought.
00;31;30;19 - 00;31;56;12
Unknown
So, like people like you, I'm just like, really grateful to you because I'm like, Hey, I'm going to start this thing. And no, it has no audience yet. It doesn't even exist yet. I'm just trying to get content in advance and pushing through that. And you're striking me as the kind of person who you seem to be a pretty motivated person and kind of and when you encounter a challenge like that, you do see it as a as a learning opportunity and not as a red flag.
00;31;56;14 - 00;32;14;00
Unknown
Mm hmm. Well, what would you say to the people like me who might be in that situation where they're they're hitting they're hitting a brick wall and whatever they're trying to do, you know, they've got some business that's around something creative that they're trying to do or they're trying to do something like a YouTube channel or they're they're trying to expand on an idea that's already there.
00;32;14;00 - 00;32;29;29
Unknown
You know, like, I'm so impressed by you thinking, Oh, I'm a doctor, but I can do all of these other things with the skills that I have as a doctor, like someone who's trying to pursue an endeavor like that and reach a new level and and seek that level of accomplishment. But they just keep hitting these brick walls.
00;32;30;02 - 00;32;57;11
Unknown
I know that the wrong way to do it that I keep coming into is saying like, this is probably a sign that it's not going to work. It sounds like that's not what you think this sounds like. That's not what you encountered when when you were running into those. So what would you say to those people? Well, I think one thing I would say is, so if whatever the thing is that you want to do, you you're like very passionate about, you know, simple advice is like certainly don't give up when it gets hard.
00;32;57;11 - 00;33;26;00
Unknown
If it's something you have passion about. But it could be the case that the way you're doing it could be modified potentially too. So in that, you know, I don't I don't know if give a scenario necessarily what the answer is, but it's like anything good or many good things require work to get there. And, you know, the idea that you're just going to go from where you are to the ultimate of the idea that you've thought about is probably unlikely that it's going to there's going to be hardships.
00;33;26;00 - 00;33;49;10
Unknown
And so I guess at some hardships, you just keep pushing directly in the direction you want it to go. But I think you need to also be open to learning as well. And I'm not speaking to you directly. I'm just these are like, I'm not offended if you are, but yeah, but like, so for me, I'm on YouTube, like it's I'm relatively small channel on YouTube, I guess.
00;33;49;10 - 00;34;27;22
Unknown
But there's lots of people who don't have the number of subscribers I have. But so specific to my situation, it's like, okay, so I'm putting out this content that's getting some amount of attraction, but there's all these things I can learn. So like it's like video length, thumbnail choice, title choice brands, logos, other social media things. So it's like I'm passionate about something and putting it content that I'm passionate about, which I think that's key is you want to do something you believe is good, but then at the same time, maybe there's things you can learn to help you get further down the road.
00;34;27;27 - 00;34;57;02
Unknown
If that road is, say, the direction you're pursuing without in the process compromising yourself. So like one thing you'll see on YouTube a lot is like clickbait and people will have thumbnails of whatever or something that people might be inclined to find attractive for some people that's fine. And for some people doing that compromises their integrity. And so you don't I don't think you want to do something to compromise your integrity to get to where you want to go.
00;34;57;04 - 00;35;22;07
Unknown
It depends on the person, what that might be. But yeah, I would say if you're passionate about something, just keep going and don't give up like Winston Churchill said, never, ever surrender, whatever the case may be. But to be realistic, I suppose sometimes you do have to give up, and I don't know when that is. I guess it's when you feel like you're really put in your best efforts and listening to the people you trust and you're not succeeding.
00;35;22;09 - 00;35;41;17
Unknown
But then even then, sometimes you've got to keep going. It's funny because I, you know, I try to make each episode unique and it is, but I do start to see some similarities, like what you just said is pretty darn close to what Ben Horne said in the first episode of this podcast. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Ben's work.
00;35;41;18 - 00;36;04;20
Unknown
His landscape photographer shoots on eight by ten film. He was saying the same thing of like not sacrificing your integrity for a quick gain. And I think that what I'm hearing you say is that like you don't obviously you don't want to give up on a goal, but you may want to give up on an approach to a goal that's a big if you're seeing things not work, then you need to be able to learn and adapt.
00;36;04;26 - 00;36;25;22
Unknown
And it's interesting to think of it that way because you always hear about like, you know, Hey, you didn't fail, you just learned. It doesn't feel like that in the moment. But if you can change your, your mindset to be such that like I'm still pursuing the same goal and because of this failure, I'm now better equipped to achieve it.
00;36;25;25 - 00;36;51;06
Unknown
I think sometimes it gets portrayed as, Here's your goal. It's going to be really hard to get there. You're going to stumble, you're going to fall, and that's just price you pay. But when you think of it as like, Hey, here's the goal, and there's going to be a lot of things that happen along the way that are the steps that you need to take, like the education that you need to achieve and obtain to get to the goal.
00;36;51;08 - 00;37;12;03
Unknown
And that's what some people call failure, what other people call learning. It's interesting. I mean, I'm I'll just admit I'm not the kind of person yet who it's very easy to see failure like that. I am trying, but another reason why I'm selfishly making this podcast from like I want to talk to people who have already failed and I can just see what they did and like, Hey, what did you learn?
00;37;12;03 - 00;37;39;04
Unknown
Tell me so I don't have to do it. You know? Well, and I think for me, I mentioned earlier that I started my university studies in forestry. You know, I was whatever, 18 at the time or 17. Is it in awe of an early birthday? Not because it skipped anything or anything, but you know, but I so, you know, I got to a point where I was like, I'm not liking forestry and I wanted to leave it and I ended up dropping out of forestry.
00;37;39;06 - 00;37;58;16
Unknown
And I remember at the time, like I just felt like I was a total failure, like I invested this money in university. I thought I had to go down this thing. I thought I was letting my parents down and my friends would judge me and whatever. And like at the time, at that moment, out of that period of time, like, yeah, I felt terrible.
00;37;58;19 - 00;38;16;26
Unknown
And I actually had another episode like that. I six years later, because I joined the military for part of my medical school and I was in the military for, I don't know, two years. And again, I got to a point where I was just like, this is not what I want to do, and ended up leaving the military.
00;38;16;26 - 00;38;47;10
Unknown
And I had the same exact feelings of failure, and particularly like personal failure, but also worrying about what other people would think. And so from that experience, looking back, it's like if in either of those failures at the time which were completely unpleasant happened, I would not be doing what I'm doing now. Leaving forestry had to happen for me to go to medicine and leaving the military had to happen for me to have a flexible life existence because like the military is pretty structured.
00;38;47;13 - 00;39;12;03
Unknown
So you need to have some failures that are unpleasant in order to have a perspective that these failures over time are maybe not true failures. They're just situations that happened that were necessary in your development as a person. But it's just it's so hard at the time those things are happening to be like, okay, I need this right now and everything's going to be okay.
00;39;12;06 - 00;39;41;05
Unknown
But I guess as it happens to you, to some small extent, maybe you learn the ability to embrace those hard times a little better over time. Do you have any actionable advice for people who need to make that mindset change and the mindset change of viewing failure as learning and not as a failure as like these this is this is actually equipping you to accomplish your goal, not tripping you up, not delaying it.
00;39;41;08 - 00;40;13;17
Unknown
It's just that there's a lot of white noise out there that I see in the topic of success and goals and creativity and failure and all the above. And one of them is the classic you don't fail, you learn. And it's it's totally true. I get that. It's totally true. But I feel like the message is put out there in completely the idea of you need to have a mindset of seeing failure as a as a learning step that equips you to accomplish a goal that's out there.
00;40;13;20 - 00;40;37;10
Unknown
But I would love to see more, more information out there of not just that that needs to be how you think, but how to start thinking that way. Exercises to do, steps to take, questions to ask yourself, Do you have any input on that? Any any advice or any ways that you can think of for one, to train themselves to become a person who thinks like that?
00;40;37;13 - 00;41;08;09
Unknown
Well, it's like, you know, they talk about chaos and order, and so there needs to be a healthy balance of the two. And so if you're only ever in order, which means, like you can predict what's going to happen, there's no unexpected outcome that occurs to you. So therefore, you to some extent, only have positive experiences like that's not good for development, but it's also not good for development to be always in chaos where you have no stability and no comfort.
00;41;08;12 - 00;41;35;28
Unknown
And so choosing to put yourself into take from the order into the chaos in small doses so that the failure that you have, if you have failure, is relatively small. I think that's a way to sort of gradually expose yourself to failure in a way that the magnitude of failure is not so great. So how could that practically manifest itself?
00;41;35;28 - 00;41;58;17
Unknown
It's like put yourself out there throughout your life and don't always go way out there. Because if you say, for example, you think there's this good business idea and you put a bunch of your personal savings into it and you fail, well, that's really bad or not. It's not always really bad, but it could be. But if you see this idea and you look at it and you're like, Hey, I could try this.
00;41;58;17 - 00;42;16;27
Unknown
And the worst case scenario is I lose $100 and you do it, you lose hundred dollars. Well, it's a little unpleasant, but it's not that unpleasant. And then you get used that feeling of unpleasantness. And then so the next time you could try something that's a little bit more risky, knowing that you were able to stomach the earlier level of risk.
00;42;17;00 - 00;42;45;11
Unknown
So so I guess the advice would be to to put yourself out there. And I think recognizing that almost anyone who has gotten anywhere far in life has had these things happen to them. And it's okay. I mean, as an extreme example, you look at what's his name, Elon Musk like. He he's had immense failures and he just lost the largest personal fortune in world history.
00;42;45;13 - 00;43;11;28
Unknown
And and he's he's still own love him or hate him, but I don't know. I guess that's all I can really say is like, put yourself out there. Recognize that it's okay to fail, and that acclimating yourself to failure in acclimating is probably a good term. Yeah. Like you do when you climb a mountain to altitude. You, you, you poke your head up to some higher altitude and then you go back down and sleep there where it's not so bad.
00;43;11;28 - 00;43;36;03
Unknown
And the next day you do the same thing and go down and sleep there and. So it's funny that this analogy, but like that's exactly what it is. It's like, test it out, see what it's like there. Experience the unpleasantness and then come back down to a place of safety. But then the next day or a few days later or years later in the life example, like push yourself a little higher and then test that out and maybe that one doesn't feel so good, but maybe it's okay.
00;43;36;03 - 00;44;06;18
Unknown
And then you can keep going. And everyone's appetite for what they can experience in discomfort is different. But I think putting yourself in some level of discomfort intermittently, voluntarily is really important. That's really good. Very insightful. Would you be willing to share a story on how you have applied that to the endeavors that we're talking about? You kind of mentioned it when you were younger and your friends and you would go out for these winter expeditions, took it in steps.
00;44;06;20 - 00;44;27;15
Unknown
You know, you took a risk and took a little bit of a bigger risk. How did that apply to the Dovetail cabin? Did you ever find yourself thinking, All right, I'm not going to go that far because that that's more than I can chew right now. I'm not going to bite off that much yet. Did you apply this line of thinking to that endeavor or to another endeavor that you'd be willing to share as an example?
00;44;27;15 - 00;44;47;03
Unknown
Yeah. Yes. From the cabin perspective, I think, you know, I think one of my goals in it probably was a goal at the time I started building that cabin was to build a house. But I said to myself, That's a really big undertaking for someone who has limited knowledge of what they're doing. So so I, I said, okay, I'll build a cabin.
00;44;47;03 - 00;45;05;29
Unknown
And then even breaking that down further, I built a relatively small cabin like the main footprint is 12 feet by 12 feet. So I think what I'm talking about in terms of putting yourself out there voluntarily a little bit, it's like, yeah, I chose to build a small cabin because I thought was like out of my comfort zone, but not so far out of my comfort zone.
00;45;05;29 - 00;45;23;02
Unknown
I couldn't achieve it. And then and I went for it. What would have been too far out? Like what would have I'm just curious where where was that line for you? In my ahead. At the time, I thought 20 feet was too far like. So if my beams were 20 feet long, I sort of worked at the math and how much they would weigh.
00;45;23;05 - 00;45;54;20
Unknown
And I was like, without significant mechanical assist, I think 12 feet is achievable with my myself and a helper. So I guess that's a tangible number. And I also thought like if I build the cabin and I succeed and then I built a house or like a small home that I probably the small home that I built would be a lot better built than if I did that first, because building the cabin would allow me the opportunity to to set a goal that I thought I could achieve with, with good probability.
00;45;54;22 - 00;46;28;28
Unknown
But then and it's not it wasn't really maybe my final project idea, but I could learn a lot in the process through failure. Use failure with quotation marks. I don't think failure is truly failure. I think learning, but it's what I could I could learn things in the process that I could then apply in the future. And I remember one guy on my YouTube, he commented one time and he said, There's an expression in Austria that the first house you build, you build for your enemy, the second house you build for your friend and the third house you build the same as the second house for yourself, meaning that you just make all your mistakes
00;46;28;28 - 00;46;54;08
Unknown
in the first. And and I was like, That's so true. Like, because there's all sorts of little things on my cabin that I would certainly do differently if I don't if or when I build a second living place. I think that's good. Before I conclude here, is there anything else that you want to summarize or anything else you want to add?
00;46;54;11 - 00;47;30;12
Unknown
Maybe just Yeah, I guess in terms of like my underlying desire to, to help people do good things, I think like I would just encourage people to, to put themselves out there and to pick goals that they think are attainable. But in the process of achieving that goal, knowing that there will experience some amount of discomfort, but to recognize that that's like a necessary and important part of getting from where you are to where you want to be, and that in the bigger scope of time, that's a good thing.
00;47;30;14 - 00;47;53;25
Unknown
And that's probably a summary of what I've been trying to say in this podcast. And I appreciate the opportunity to do this with you and I wish you great success in this. You're a pleasant person to talk to who it's good to know. A listen as well. And and I think that'll really serve you well and in doing this so well.
00;47;53;25 - 00;48;12;08
Unknown
Thank you. I definitely appreciate hearing that. I'm I'm looking forward to listening back to this conversation and in editing through it, I do want you to have a chance to, you know, for people who are interested in learning more about what you do and following your work, where should they go? What would you what would you like them to to check out?
00;48;12;11 - 00;48;39;00
Unknown
Yeah. So, yeah, if you're interested in kind of my journey and what I'm up to, probably the two best places would be PennyMac Wilderness on YouTube and IAC, which is the First Nations word for the community or the name of the community which originates from First Nations. Our seat language many, many Pennock wilderness on YouTube or penny at wilderness dot com.
00;48;39;00 - 00;48;57;20
Unknown
And that can direct you to some of the other channels and whatnot. But yeah, feel free to check that out if you find any of this interesting. What I've been talking about. All right. Awesome. I will be sure to make sure that those are also in the notes for this episode. So listeners, you can go ahead and check that out to get the direct links for what Jonathan is referring to.
00;48;57;22 - 00;49;18;10
Unknown
It's definitely worth pursuing and learning more about what he's doing and following his creative endeavors. So Jonathan, thank you so much. I'm super appreciative of you, especially that you're willing to talk to me on this episode for this show That's like, you know, again, at the time of recording, we haven't actually launched yet. So it's just like it's a huge favor for you and I really appreciate it.
00;49;18;10 - 00;49;42;24
Unknown
I think you did an excellent job. I think this is great stuff and I think this will really inspire some listeners. Thanks, Joe. You have a good day, friend. You, too. Thanks. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Creative Success Podcast. To hear more stories and interviews like this, you can check out more of our episodes at Creative Success podcast dot com.
00;49;42;26 - 00;50;12;05
Unknown
You can also check us out on iTunes and Spotify and Google Podcasts. Thank you once again for listening and I hope you join me next time for the next story in the Creative Success Podcast.