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A new favorite podcast is added to the list, #MeToo extends into podcasts, the Google Podcasts app is actually out now, beware of Anchor (possibly), and how much is too much when it comes to re-listening to podcasts?
Join Brendan Hutchins 🙈 and Mark Steadman 🧔🏻 as they digest the very latest in podcast culture.
[00:00:00] Mark: Uh, there'll be a link in the show notes. I should, I don't like it when people say there will be a link because it's when you listen to it in the past week, there is a thank you. I see Brendan two halves of the same mind,
[00:00:19] the podcast show for the rest. Brendan Hutchins from a podcast advocate network.
[00:00:27] Brendan: Hey, Mark Steadman from podiant.co, podcast hosting service.
[00:00:31] Mark: How has your, uh, how's how's your Wednesday as, as the time of recording,
[00:00:34] Brendan: the sun came up and I am home safe. So all is good for me. How about you?
[00:00:39] Mark: Um, yeah, pretty, pretty much the same.
[00:00:43] I got home safe after walking. Um, so yeah, it's good. It's not morning for me, but it's fine. Um, yes. Uh, so, uh, I listened to, we have concerns
[00:00:55] Brendan: and hopefully you don't have too many concerns
[00:00:57] Mark: about it. Don't have too many concerns. I have. Awesome. Uh, I really liked it. Um, it's, it's sweet. Yeah, it has become, uh, a new something else too, to take my time in my, uh, my podcast player.
[00:01:10] Um, so, uh, yeah, very, very enjoyable podcast. Um, and lots of very interesting topics, very amenable and, uh, not amenable, but, uh, amicable. You know the word anyway, they're likable. They're likable people. Yes. I'm likable. Yeah.
[00:01:26] Brendan: Did you just go in like with the latest episodes or did you use their like new listener guide to go back and see like all the
[00:01:32] Mark: best of I should have done that?
[00:01:35] I just dove in. Um, and then I was like, yeah, I mean, I get it. And, uh, this is, this is cool. Um, I I'm, I'm still at that stage, which I think anyone who listens to a two or 300 podcast gets this, where they get. Quite know which one's, which yet recognize. Voices or you differentiate the voices, but can't yet because they haven't introduced themself enough or refer to the other person for me to go, oh, that's the one without voice.
[00:02:03] Uh, I had it with Dubai Friday for a little bit and I still have it with reply. All I still couldn't tell you which one is PJ and which one is annex. Yeah.
[00:02:12] Brendan: Yeah. Usually they can tell by their laugh, but it's hard
[00:02:15] Mark: whilst you've got for
[00:02:16] Brendan: me. I got a new one. Okay. So this one covers the blockchain. Uh, so, and I know that.
[00:02:24] Um, have you heard of zigzag? No. Cool. Awesome. Uh, so zigzag is in partnership with Radiotopia. It's hosted by minutiae Zimmer roadie who has previously from note to self by w NYC, uh, her and her partner. I think it's Jen, um, used to create that podcast and they left, uh, WSC is a public radio station from new.
[00:02:48] They, uh, note to selfless kind of a tech lifestyle podcasts. Like they would talk about how tech affects your life. And, um, they did actually a lot of, uh, surveys and, and, and, um, studies on their audience. It was really audience participation. I got a lot of feedback. She wrote a couple of books about it. It was, it was a really cool, uh, I didn't follow it too closely, but, um, when, when I did it was, it was a really great podcast, but they started a new venture where.
[00:03:16] They're starting a new podcast company, really? And it's a lot like Gimlet, this, this first, this is the first podcast from this new company called stable genius, stable genius. That's the one. Um, I love
[00:03:31] Mark: this so
[00:03:31] Brendan: much already. I know. So they, they started, uh, the first podcast called zigzag, which is just like startup by Gimlet, but it's about their, um, and how they are creating their podcast company using blocks.
[00:03:45] And so as blockchain is always really hard for me to describe, it's a little bit hard for me to relate, but the first two episodes are out now. Um, so it's, you know, it's a little bit early to recommend it, but I enjoyed it so much and I thought that you would as well. So I think that, uh, you should give it a try.
[00:04:01] I wanted to say, um, I'd heard about this a little bit here and there and I just hadn't jumped into it, but after a recommendation by Willie Williams on Twitter, uh, will. Will w underscore rights on Twitter. Um, I had to jump in cause she was raving about it. And if anybody who ever wants to go. Uh, recommendation with a lot of enthusiasm.
[00:04:20] I would accept, I would suggest following her on Twitter. So
[00:04:25] Mark: we've talked a lot of nonsense about Google and trying to understand what's been going on and it turns out they've now actually got an app and it's actually happening. Yeah. Yeah. Last week we thought it was out, but we weren't really sure cause we can't no last week it was a placeholder.
[00:04:40] Um, and uh, this week it's, uh, it's happening. Uh, I'm committing myself today that I'm going to go and get a, an Android, a proper decent Android device. Yeah, I guess you'd probably have to test it and stuff. There is a link in the show notes to, um, the Google play, uh, where it's not Google planning. Well, but the Google podcasts submission page thing.
[00:05:02] You still have to have your podcast indexed by Google. Um, now I assume being Googled, that just means probably the it's a podcast on the internet and you've linked your RSS feed somewhere because. I've tried my shows and they're in there because all the podcast hosting company that I run, um, all of the feeds are compatible, so that's fine.
[00:05:23] So, um, all of them should work. And then, uh, yeah, so, um, it's, it's exciting. Uh, because as I heard on the pod news podcast this morning, we are talking about four times the, um, audience of, uh, of iPhone listeners. So that's big. Wow.
[00:05:42] Brendan: That is big.
[00:05:42] Mark: So that's really, really, really exciting. Um, I'm going to, um, uh, the, the device hopefully should land by the time we record next.
[00:05:50] And so what I'm going to try and do is a little bit of homework is, uh, I'm going to scoot around the app and try and figure it all out and, uh, and report back, uh, let you know how easy it is. I've heard that it's not the best of experiences yet, but certainly, um, better than, better than nothing. So, uh, exciting times.
[00:06:08] Very cool. So last Friday, uh, I got clued in to a, uh, an article, um, written by Chloe Dykstra. And, uh, this was a medium piece and I started reading it and, um, It was some, some, some very disappointing, um, potentially very, very upsetting news. Um, I want to avoid the, a huge if true, um, meme. Um, right. And I think we, we have to, I think we should probably do the duty.
[00:06:43] Uh, giving our opinion on whether it's true or not, because I don't think that serves anything. Um, and, uh, Hardwick of course, for, you know, if you're, if you're an aware, uh, was the CEO, uh, of Nerdist, he started the notice podcasting back in what, 2011. That sounds about, right. Yeah. Um, and, you know, has been responsible for one of my favorite podcasts, brought them over to brought them over to his network and, uh, you know, a lot of stuff and he cultivated a personality of, of sort of gregariousness and, um, and that's at odds with the article.
[00:07:16] So again, you know, Speculate here, but it's um, yeah, it's, it's there and it's, it's, it's awful a Nerdist. The company have now removed any mention of Chris Hardwick from their details. So I guess we'll wait to hear more from, um, him. Brief statements Bastyr denial, but, uh, we may wait to, to hear more. Alright.
[00:07:38] Um, on other news, I believe you have some breaking news, some news of a breaking
[00:07:42] Brendan: nature. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's, it's breaking people's minds as well. Uh, uh, on Twitter, I've noticed the little controversy regarding anchor the free, um, venture back. Podcast a hosting service and listener situation, the
[00:08:00] Mark: listen situation.
[00:08:01] So,
[00:08:02] Brendan: so, uh, anchor allows you to upload your podcasts for free, but, um, you also have to accept their terms of service, which, you know, nobody reads until somebody does. And there was a lawyer on Twitter that, um, that has read them and has highlighted a bunch of areas that are. Not so, uh, not so user friendly.
[00:08:25] Um, one of them much, like, I think Instagram early on had this controversy, uh, anchor owns all of your, um, content after you put it up. That's not your podcast anymore. It's theirs. And then, uh, and then worse, I think is a, an indemnification clause where they say that. Um, if for any reason, because of the country.
[00:08:49] A podcast or uploads. Uh, the podcasts are now has to defend anchor, you know, pay for the lawyer fees and all of that to, uh, to make sure that they don't receive any harm from
[00:09:00] Mark: your content. I think the two things in conjunction of the problem, I think the first one. Possibly waive away by saying, well, there may be things to do with their technology.
[00:09:10] That mean they, they have the, they need to have the right to rebroadcast it in order to do certain things. And podium has had, had to have that conversation, but when combined with the, the double two fingers up, um, or middle finger up of. We're taking your content, but then you have to defend the content that we've taken from you, uh, is outrageous.
[00:09:35] Um, and that is, um, that supporting now I've, I've already heard. Very sketchy things. And I won't say from whom, but I have already heard very disappointing things about anchor's approach to podcasting, um, in that you do not own your RSS feed in any shape.
[00:09:53] Brendan: Yes. Yeah. I forgot about that too. That's yeah,
[00:09:56] Mark: that's ridiculous.
[00:09:56] So if you, if you want to list your podcast on apple podcasts, uh, you have to go through. Anchor to do so they will not give you your RSS feed your out. They will do the submission for you. Um, and I mean, that's nice and convenient and all, but if you're trying to be a professional and actually make sure you either, you have ownership over everything, not just in terms of rights, but in terms of being able to move that away somewhere else.
[00:10:25] Autonomy. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Um, then, then that's a, that's a big deal. Um, and so, yeah. That's very disappointing that there are some, there are some things to like about this service. Um, and so I guess, you know, we, we will wait to hear more and there's nothing from anchor yet. No, they they've not made any, uh, any statements, um, at the moment.
[00:10:46] Hello, future markets. As I mentioned at the top of the show, we recorded this on Wednesday. And since then, there has been a little bit of development in this story. So in the interest of fairness, uh, here is a response on Twitter from CEO and co-founder of anchor Michael McNeil. I recognize your concerns about some of the language in tos.
[00:11:07] So I've been working with our team at the last few days to make changes and clarifications to them that I hope will address these issues. We just updated the terms first and foremost, when using anchor creators have, and always will own their content. We've made this really explicit. So there isn't any conflict.
[00:11:24] When you use anchor, you are granting us a license to distribute your content to our platform, as well as others around the world. We've clarified the license language to indicate when and how it creates a contaminant. The license they've given us. Lastly, anchor has always aimed to innovate on the medium of audio.
[00:11:40] The format more interactive with features like voice messages or co-hosts that that creates is collaborate in real time to enable these features, the license extends some aspects of its scope to other users so that these users are protected when they choose to collaborate. I hope that helps clear things up again.
[00:11:56] We have no intention to misuse creators content or do things with content that a creator isn't expecting. Given the anchor is a creative first platform you have. That we'd never do that. So as of yet, just in McLachlan hasn't yet replied, he was the man who raised the initial concerns. Uh, but this latest missive was from the 21st of June, 2018.
[00:12:21] So if there's more on the story, we will talk about it next week. And now back to the past.
[00:12:28] Brendan: Okay. So I have a two-part question for you. I guess one, do you ever read or listen to podcasts like that? You've listened to a podcast, you enjoy it, so you'll come back to it. And if so, how do you do it? Like, do you start and come back to it or just remember it like, oh, I want to listen to that again.
[00:12:43] And to a two part, first question. And my second question, do you ever read or listen to your own podcasts that you have. And did you ever go back
[00:12:53] Mark: to your own back catalog, uh, to the first then? Um, every so often. Yes. Uh, and, and most recently I've been dipping back into mission to XIX. Um, nice to partly sort of reacquaint myself with the world, but also to just do it because it's really enjoyable, really like it.
[00:13:11] Um, last year I did it a lot with, I went through the entire sparks Nevada arc of. Thrilling adventure. So I started listening to everything and then I just thought actually, you know what, I kind of just want to go through all of the, uh, all the sparks, because the, the wonderful thing about that is it's a progressive story.
[00:13:29] Um, and, uh, and so, uh, you know, th th there was such great series. Absolutely superb. And they were sort of eight years of content that I got to catch up on back in 2014 when I started listening. Um, and so it was, it was wondrous. Uh, so yes. Um, and there used to be, there was a, a British show that only existed for.
[00:13:49] Episodes that I really listened to a couple of times it was by, um, some early internet people called fat pie and they had a podcast called a Walla Walla FM, and it was like a, it would fictional sort of radio station thing. And it was, um, just two guys just doing lots of different voices and all sorts of different bits.
[00:14:09] And some of it was a bit naive and a bit what you might call. But what sophomore, sophomore, terrific. Whatever the word is. Yeah, yeah. Sophomore year. So from Eric, there you go. Zack Morris. Um, and, uh, but some of it was, was, was really cool. And so that occasionally I do, uh, do go back to, um, so that's, that's that question.
[00:14:28] And I think I sh I shall now throw it over. To answer that question. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I
[00:14:34] Brendan: do. I um, so yeah, I have some favorites that I'd go back to I've I've really listened to, um, Mike and Tommy snacks all the way through, I think twice, maybe three times, um, mystery show I listened to. Oh, uh, and now it's like every two years, but you know, when it came out, it was probably once a year.
[00:14:54] And I just, I just find it so endearing and adorable. And I, uh, I, I just love that series to death. Um, and also when S town came out, I listened to it seven times in a week. Wow. And the whole, the whole series. Um, I was, uh, I was very much infatuated with that podcast when it came out. It, um, It really struck a chord with me.
[00:15:17] It was really interesting. I have listened. I think I've listened to it one time since then. Um, haven't had the desire to go back to it since then, but it was a fun, it was a fun way, um, because of its. It's delivery method. And moment in design guys send everything. It was supremely fit for, you know, bingeing multiple times and really diving deep into it and experience.
[00:15:42] And so that was, that was a fun experiment. Um, in general. No, because podcasts are kind of made to be somewhat inferior, both, which is interesting. It's both meant to, to stand the test of time, depending on the podcast and to just kind of be a single listen. It's not always, you know, unless it's like, uh, uh, audio fiction or something that is kind of meant to be like a favorite movie that you come back to it, uh, usually just meant to be, you know, standing on its own and then you move onto the next one because the next one comes out next week.
[00:16:15] Mark: Every so often you might come across a standout episode that, um, deserves a realist. And now they're the one I always quote, when I talk about the power of podcasting, uh, is an episode of reply. All that made me cry when I was stood in a train station, um, which is called the. And, um, I haven't listened back to it, but I, I told everyone about it the day I'd heard it.
[00:16:39] Uh, and then, uh, when I was, when I used to give talks about podcasting and when I've had conversations about, uh, w with a group of people who were talking about making, um, collectible content around podcasts. So, you know, that one always, always comes back to me as one of the most impactful. Stories that I've ever heard.
[00:16:59] Um, and you know, and it, and it got to be delivered, um, through my, my favorite medium. Um, so yeah, I think, um, there are lots of other, I think they, they tend to be kind of comedy or tend to be a lot more lighthearted. The kind of shows that I think are, are more re listen worthy. Um, but obviously not, not necessarily, uh, the case.
[00:17:22] Um, yeah, I, I, yes. Uh, so to your, to your second. Point, um, not as much as I used to. Okay. Is the answer to that. Uh, so I used to make a show, uh, I used to make usually a show all week and this was now nine years ago. I'm coming up for 10 and, and I think, no. Yeah, no. And we, we started in, in 2009 and, um, it was a, a sports show and I had no interest in sport, but I, the, the show.
[00:17:55] Quite funny. And I was the producer and we had two co-hosts and we did bits and I, they sometimes got me to record songs or do little sketch things. And it was, it was quite a fun little, it was almost like, um, the bugle sport edition, basically, it was a bit like the bugle and it was just all sport. Um, oh, that's fine.
[00:18:12] And, uh, yeah, and, and mostly mostly football, but, um, and, and so we would put that together and go early into the night, uh, editing it and. Um, I would often then wake up the next morning and put that podcast in my ears as I went to work. Yeah. And I did that for a while with it, with a few shows. And then as I started to make more, uh, that stopped happening and now there's a occasional one or two.
[00:18:40] The one that I have probably really listened to the most because it just gives me the warm fuzzies memories is a show that I did call the 2014 show. And, uh, we D I stopped doing the show because it drove me a little bit mental. And then at the end of the year, I did a Christmas special, which was something like two and a half hours.
[00:18:58] And I had five guests who will join me over Skype. And I played clips of my favorite bits from the 36 weeks of shows that I've done. Um, and I got a couple of people to record voicemails, uh, get people who are previous guests. And then I played cause he used to play music on the show. So I'd play. Two or three tracks that I really loved, and then you have the guests on.
[00:19:19] And we talk about our reviews of things from the air that we liked. And like the whole thing went flawlessly. Nice. You know, the, the guests got brought in fine and, and it all just, it all just worked. And I had a couple of people in the chat room and it was a live show. Uh, and, and it all just worked really well.
[00:19:35] And so every now and again, I come back to that, um, just to listen to like, I felt like in 2014 was me at the top of my sort of live podcasting game. Um, which is, you know, eclipsed now I think, you know, I've got a lot better at a lot of the things, but it's just nice to be able to, um, to, to listen back to that and go, okay.
[00:19:54] That was a really good time. Nice. What about yourself?
[00:19:57] Brendan: Uh, yes. I have found myself going back to podcasts that I make constantly and. I, uh, I don't know if it's just like my narcissism going on overdrive or if I just really enjoying, like, I'm trying to make the content that I want to listen to both. I mean, make the two main shows that I'm on are this one and nobody asks for this.
[00:20:20] And then I have two podcasts, two main podcasts that I edit, um, unplaced serendipitous city. And then. I'll all four of them when the episode comes out. Um, I immediately listened to it just to make sure I didn't mess anything up and, uh, need to re-upload and replace it. Um, but then I'll listen to it like two or three more times that week before the next episode comes out.
[00:20:45] And, um, and then nobody asks for this. Sometimes I'll go back in the back catalog and just listen to some of my favorites. That I've put out, uh, with the name taken episode or the Kisha episode, and now the lights episode, I'm just obsessed with. Uh, so it's, it's, uh, it's interesting. And I've, I've wondered, like I've, I've heard, I've seen on, um, Facebook groups, how people are like, they can't stand the sound of their own voice and they never listened back to their own shows.
[00:21:09] And I just haven't. Haven't experienced that too much in it. I was just wondering if that was something similar that you experienced as well. Although like, if I, if I listened back to the first series of, um, podcasts playlist that I did, I, and I had a lot to learn and I, um, I feel like I did cause I, I listened back to myself a lot, but I don't usually go back to that bit series.
[00:21:38] It's a lot of things that I would change and tweak and how it sounds. It's not, um, you know, filling me with joy or anything, but, um, but later episodes I've, I feel like I'm really putting together the things that I want to listen to. Yeah. I
[00:21:51] Mark: idly enough. I found that I listened to the wherever, the leopard and this.
[00:21:56] A lot more. I will occasionally either when it drops or when I'm just chilling out, I will pop the episode in because, um, I am, I think partly because it's, you know, that there's always lots of other voices and that's nice, but I'm really, really pleased with the editing jobs, especially. Yes. Uh, I think, I think more so on this and I think it's a harder job on leopard.
[00:22:18] Um, yeah, but I think, I think, you know, and it's, it comes through mostly. Okay. And so it comes through then. Thank you. Well, th th then sometimes I'm just listening because there's, there's been funny bits. Um, the, you know, that it's nice to relive, but sometimes it's just, it's the super nerdy thing of oh yeah.
[00:22:36] That, that edit was really sharp or, you know, the way that bit came in there, which was lovely. Um, And so sometimes it's just nice to listen back that way, but that, I definitely know what you mean. Not necessarily with the sound of my own voice. I'm not many of my friends would beg to differ or think I'm sure this is not true, but I don't sure I'm not.
[00:22:58] First about the sound of my images. No, no, no, no, no. I'm very sure. Most of my friends are like, no, come on, you talk all the goddamn time and it's just cause I like doing it. Um, but yeah, I like, I don't need to hear the sound of my voice all the time. Um, and so it's not so much that, but there are some times some podcasts that I, I can't really listen back to.
[00:23:20] One quick example is one of the ones from the 2014 showed that sort of became, it sort of began the, um, the, the decline to a degree was, uh, I had a comic on, um, and that's a comic on, and, um, I was super nervous because I, this was someone that I knew of and I liked to sure they weren't super famous, but they'd been on the radio and, and, and various things.
[00:23:46] And, uh, I never thought I'd get them as a guest. I thought this was probably this, you know, and this is a conversation. I think we'll, we'll come back to in a later episode, you know, and never really thought it would, it would happen. And then it did. And it was like, oh my God. And you know, she was cool, but I.
[00:24:02] I had to pick up a technique, um, to stop the monkey brain from, um, from doing its thing, because I was just, I had so much nervous energy. What was your technique? The technique I was given by my brother, uh, which is great for things like this is to doodle, uh, or to make notes on a piece of paper while you're speaking to someone on Skype.
[00:24:22] That's a good one. Um, It just distracts the brain. So when, when it's spinning out going, I'm going to go, am I going on? And we're actually talking to this better. I've got to think about the next question. What's the question I'm going to ask. Oh God, did I sound stupid with that last question? Oh my God. I can't believe this person I'm using up all of their time.
[00:24:35] And they think I'm an idiot. I got that. And you know, all that stuff, um, distracting the brain by, by doing a bit of writing or, you know, writing down what they've said or just doodling, that kind of stuff really helps. And like, I guess that's why a lot of people fidget as well. Yeah,
[00:24:48] Brendan: for sure.
[00:24:54] Mark: How was your ride? What's your week looking like? Uh, then are you, are you back now in, uh, I'm back, back, back in, back in the, oh, I was going to say the G no, it's the, uh, oh, back in the AOR. There you go. Which is an operating
[00:25:06] Brendan: room. Um, I'm back to my old shenanigans. Uh, I am going to be working on unplaced in serendipity city and I'm doing some other small editing projects and stuff, but mostly.
[00:25:20] Oh, actually, uh, today there should also be a new episode of nobody asked for this. So it's the last of this series and we'll probably record again and then another few months and drop a few months after that, because that one's a long, slow build, but, um, nice. Uh, I think that's pretty much it. Um, I'm, I'm trying to change the tone back a little bit on my brain, in my podcasting a little bit.
[00:25:45] So it doesn't take up all of my. And, uh, get back to the work that actually makes money. How about you? How's your, how's your podcasting? Um,
[00:25:53] Mark: it is, it is looking, looking fairly similar. Actually. I've got a couple of things to push out and then, um, yeah, just, just some, some minor editing bits. Uh, Taking a break from live recordings of leopard at the moment.
[00:26:07] Um, as we go into a, uh, a special, when we, uh, are at the podcast festival yeah. Episode 42 is coming up. Right. It's funny. You should mention that Brendan, is there going to be the live episode? That was a discussion that we had because I was totally aware that that was the way that the numbers were going to work out.
[00:26:22] And I totally knew that 42 was coming up. So we might have fudged our not fudged, our numbering. We might be paying out a couple of quote, unquote bonus episodes to enable us to have episode 42, be our live show that might just be. That's up for. Yeah. So that that's, that's taken place, uh, really, really quickly.
[00:26:44] I just want to bring up, have you, uh, just because I think it's related to something you've just brought up about, um, time spent podcasting, have you heard Daniel? J Lewis is a. Impassioned sort of, um, speech that he made online, you know, so John Daniel, J Daniel, J Lewis, uh, believed that that's the right combination of letters, um, is, uh, the chap behind the audacity to podcast.
[00:27:10] And, uh, he has been going through some really tough times by, by the sounds of it, basically, because he's been so focused on work that, uh, he. Seems like a neglected his home life and he's, he's, he's really, um, he's really felt that. And he's. Devastated about it and, uh, and, and put out a very emotional, um, audio statement and sort of asking for, for people to, uh, yeah.
[00:27:36] It's yeah, I've
[00:27:37] Brendan: heard, I've heard that he had to really distance himself for a while, but I hadn't heard, and that was something personal, but that's about it.
[00:27:43] Mark: I have to check that out and very, very emotional, very heartfelt. Um, if you're triggered by religious stuff, then maybe give it a mess. Cause it's very, very religious, uh, very religion heavy, but, um, an interesting statement and something that to a degree, I'm sure all of us can take on board.
[00:28:01] Brendan: Well listeners, a link is in the show notes.