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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:06)
Hello.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:07)
Howdy.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:09)
You look nice. What are you wearing?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:11)
My
gosh, you're the second person to tell me this. Do I look good in green? Green doesn't feel like my color, but okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:14)
I think you do.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:16)
I think it's just because I'm wearing something that actually looks like a blouse versus a t-shirt, which is a rare occasion. No.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:23)
I mean the colour looks good on you too though.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:25)
Okay, thank you. For the folks listening and not watching, we'll we'll move to non-visual things.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:33)
how are you?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:34)
I'm great, and you?
Taina Brown she/hers (00:35)
I'm all right. I'm all right. Yeah. Yeah,
Becky Mollenkamp (00:36)
We're gonna talk heavy topic today, so I feel like I don't wanna be too light and happy.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:41)
yeah. So I mean woke up to the news that Haven Penn and Tear, I think I'm pronouncing her last name right,
Becky Mollenkamp (00:48)
It's Panaty Area.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:50)
passed away. I think she was thirty-six.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:52)
Mm-hmm.
Just before her thirty seventh birthday, I saw.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:54)
Yeah, so she was in some Disney movies, I think. She was in Heroes, she was in Nashville. she was in Remember the Titans?
Becky Mollenkamp (01:02)
Apparently she was on a so
yeah. I think she was on a soap when she was a kid, maybe even I saw. I don't know. I know she started very
Taina Brown she/hers (01:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:08)
young acting.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:09)
Yeah. Yeah. So and she was very vocal about her struggle with postpartum depression after she gave birth to her daughter Kaya and abuse at the hands of one of her exes and her mom, her struggles in Hollywood, addiction, a lot, a lot. So it's
Becky Mollenkamp (01:29)
Yeah. It's less about us being Hayden Panetier stands. Not that we
Taina Brown she/hers (01:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:33)
don't care for her or anything, but it's not so much about the her specifically, but more about the details surrounding her death and and what it says about systems, I think, is why we were talking about it.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:43)
Yeah, yeah.
They haven't released Cause of Death yet.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:47)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:48)
but as far as I know anyway.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:50)
I hadn't seen it yet either.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:53)
but yeah, it was just one, it's it's a tragic loss and so
Becky Mollenkamp (01:54)
It yeah. If it's not released
at third when a thirty-six year old dies, if it's not something like a car accident, right, which they would normally share, it's for somebody who's yeah, she's had a been vocal about
Taina Brown she/hers (02:03)
Yeah. It's pretty obvious something is a butt. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:07)
a history of substance at least alcohol abuse. I'm not sure about other substances. So,
Taina Brown she/hers (02:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:12)
you know, there's unfortunately it's probably not like natural causes or something like a car accident. Yeah. But again, the circumstances
Taina Brown she/hers (02:17)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So
Becky Mollenkamp (02:23)
of her death.
are not really what it's about, although they do relate to the fact that we live in a world where folks who have any forms of mental health issues, which she mentioned, of course, with the postpartum depression and
Taina Brown she/hers (02:35)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:35)
the addiction issues, we are not equipped to help those people in this country.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:40)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was going through just social media and there were obviously clips of the time that she was on Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty's Yeah. I think
Becky Mollenkamp (02:49)
Yeah, it was very recently apparently. I think that was only a couple of months or weeks ago.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:54)
so. I think it was earlier this year and she, you know, talked about dealing with postpartum and and
You know, she she talked about it being like on a scale, like not everyone experiences it the same way. And so she wasn't she said she didn't necessarily have like thoughts of like harming herself or harming her daughter, but she knew she wasn't okay. And when she finally asked or, you know, told her partner at the time, you know, that she needed help, y she went to a facility and they treated her for the alcoholism, but the postpartum stuff never came up. Like they never really
touched on it. And so just just like that hearing that was just like that's what she went in there. Like that was the trigger for probably s of some of the alcoholism. yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:36)
Think she said very clearly it was. It was like she
would drink because that then gave her the relief she was needing from this anxiety and pressure of feeling like she wasn't measuring up, she didn't how know how to be a mom, she felt all this
Taina Brown she/hers (03:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:50)
failure around feeling depressed about parenthood. And yeah, so the alcohol was like a way to numb.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:55)
Yeah, yeah. And the fact that they were just like treating the symptom rather than the root cause. She also lost well not lost her contract, but like Neutrogena tried to fire her. 'cause she had a contract with Neutrogena. in Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:08)
I remember that. my gosh, I had forgotten
about that. That was like maybe last year or two years ago or something. And it was
Taina Brown she/hers (04:13)
I think it was a little bit longer.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:16)
it was when she became she went she came out sort of publicly talking about the postpartum depression.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:21)
And I guess it was like that was not the face they wanted for Neutrogena, like a face of depression or something. I guess it's supposed to be a product that
Taina Brown she/hers (04:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:29)
makes you feel happy, but it's a product for women, largely.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:32)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:33)
And
For them to treat a mom in that state that way is I mean, what it's just atrocious.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:42)
It's wild, yeah, yeah. So they they I I I think I read excuse me, they ended up just like finishing up the contract with her, but then after that they just like didn't renew her contract and just kind of like
Becky Mollenkamp (04:52)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:53)
ghosted her. 'cause they didn't again, they didn't want one of their brand ambassadors or whatever talking about mental health issues. And so, and she gave up her daughter because she knew she wasn't okay. And so, you know, she said,
She was dealing with the mental health issues, the substance abuse. And so her daughter was living with her dad full-time. And by the time the daughter's dad, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:14)
The daughter's dad. Her yeah, Hayden's ex partner or spouse.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:18)
Yeah. The child's father.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:20)
and by the time she was in a place where she was felt her best and able to like care for her daughter, it had been so many years. that
They
decided to just they she didn't want to disrupt her daughter's life, right? By saying, okay, now you're leaving Europe and you're coming back to the US to live with me, because her partner, her daughter's dad was from the U or is from the Ukraine. And so so then she got a lot of backlash for giving up, giving up, right? Her daughter for releasing the custody or just maintaining the custody as it was.
Really. and so it's like as a woman, like you can't if she would have like I mean, we see what happened like with Britney Spears, right? Who struggled with mental health, struggled with postpartum stuff, had childhood in the limelight as well. And she wanted to keep her kids close and people were like, Well, you're not you're not really fit to do that. And she ended up under a conservatorship, right? Which we now know the a lot of the gruesome details about what that
Consisted of after the fact. But then you have like someone like Hayden who was like, Well, I I understand I'm not fit to like try
Becky Mollenkamp (06:29)
Trying to do the right thing.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:30)
and do the right thing for her child, right? I'm not in the best place to handle a child right now, so I'm gonna let her father raise her and then do what I can to be a part of her life and
Becky Mollenkamp (06:41)
And what I
read was that she was an active part of her life. She travelled there a lot to be there.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:44)
She traveled there a lot.
Yeah. Yeah. and and still like people were still like, Well, what are you doing? You gave up your daughter, like you must not care. And so it's like as a woman, as a as a person who births another living thing, it's like you damned if you do, damned if you don't. And so and I and I'm
Becky Mollenkamp (07:02)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:02)
not a parent, I know you are. And so I just thought it would be interesting to just kind of talk about
Becky Mollenkamp (07:08)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:08)
that experience.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:09)
Well, and Hayden's daughter is eleven and Hayden is thirty-six. So I mean she had this child at twenty-five,
Taina Brown she/hers (07:15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:16)
and your brain is barely fully developed at twenty-five. And I think it's important
Taina Brown she/hers (07:18)
Right, right.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:19)
to note also, just because I think it we don't know how, but I it more than likely it may have been a factor in this, is that the child's daughter, I'm not sure if they were or father, I'm not sure if they were married, but partner at least, is 14 years older than Hayden P Panatear. He is fifty and she's she was 36 at the time of her death.
Which means when she was 25, he was almost 40. He was 39 years old, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (07:41)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:42)
And I don't know the circumstances of the relationship. So it's not specifically about them. But those kinds of age gaps with a woman who's so young and is going through obviously some mental health issues around everything, it's very easy if a partner wanted to. And again, I don't know him, I'm not saying he did, but it's very easy for a partner if they wanted to to exert an awful lot of control in a scenario
Taina Brown she/hers (08:02)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:02)
like that.
So who knows how much that might have been a play. And also he was a like a boxer. So he was not a small man. He was nearly twice her height. She was yeah,
Taina Brown she/hers (08:09)
I was huge.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:10)
she was only five foot tall. So she was very tiny. She was
Taina Brown she/hers (08:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:13)
young. He was big, but you know, looming
Taina Brown she/hers (08:15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:16)
presence, also a looming age. So it's just a lot there that, you know, and as somebody, here's what I can say from experience as somebody who has birthed a child. One.
It's an experience that you can't understand unless you go through it. And I know that because I used to have a lot of thoughts about parenting and about childbirth and all kinds of things before I did it, thinking that I understood to some degree. I mean, I was a I was a woman, I had a uterus, I could get pregnant, blah, blah, blah. It is an experience unlike anything else. That's not to say it's a great.
The best experience, or that that makes it something, you know, so precious that it's unlike
Taina Brown she/hers (08:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:52)
anything else, but it is a unique experience in that when else do we have another human that we
Taina Brown she/hers (08:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:58)
that we create and then grow inside of our bodies for that lot? Like it is, it is honestly, it's one of those things you can almost not wrap your head around, like the universe, right? Just this idea of like, I could create life inside my body, I could grow that life from like.
Just a clump of cells or a single egg into something that can then survive on its own and then become its own, like fully cognizant, aware. Like it's just like your mind, the mind boggles, right? And then to go through
Taina Brown she/hers (09:25)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:25)
that and to have it's an intimacy that you cannot experience in any other way. That is not in any way to say that parents who don't birth their children don't love their children the same way. I
Absolutely don't believe that. I think that you can love a child that you didn't birth. I can think you can love someone else's child. I think all of these things are true. I think there is, however, an intimacy that you just don't get any other way. It
Taina Brown she/hers (09:47)
Through the birthing experience, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:49)
doesn't make it better. That's right. So I'm not here trying to create a hierarchy of parenting or of experiences, but only to say there is an intimacy that is like unlike any other relationship two people can have. Because I can have the most intimate relationship with someone, but they will never have, I will never have.
Created them in my body. I will
Taina Brown she/hers (10:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:06)
never have shared blood with them, you know, food with them, everything with them over that course of time, right? So it is this deeply intimate experience. And then this child comes and you feel woefully unprepared, woefully unsupported. Even
Taina Brown she/hers (10:21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:21)
if you have an amazing support network, even
Taina Brown she/hers (10:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:24)
if you have done all the education classes, you know, I'm a deeply privileged person. I was able to go to education class, you know, the parenting pre.
Pre-birth classes. I had a have a partner who was very supportive, very involved. I have the luxury of having had grandparents, my parents, so baby grandparents being very involved. And still, you cannot be prepared for what it is like to be a parent. Like there's just, I don't care what books you've read, I don't care what you've done. Suddenly they give you this little human and say, keep it alive. It is terrifying. It is terrifying.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:53)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:55)
And it's not just a little human, it's a little human.
Who you love in a way you never knew you could love a person. And again, that experience comes for all parents. So that is not unique. But there's also the experience of you've just ripped this human out from my body. Now all the attention goes to that little human as it as it should in many ways, right? We need to care for the little human and keep it alive. And yet my body has just gone through the greatest trauma it's ever experienced. And
Taina Brown she/hers (11:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:18)
likely ever really will experience. Birthing is a traumatic experience, no matter how
Taina Brown she/hers (11:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:22)
you do it, how supported you are. It's traumatic on your body.
In my case, because I had a C-section, I had a cut through all the layers of my muscle, skin, fat, everything down into my body that and you know, a size little scar that will never go away, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (11:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:37)
And pain, confusion, like you're on drugs. It's it's just I share all this to it's a lot, right? It's a lot.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:44)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:45)
And then you're expected to, after for some people, a day or two in the hospital, if you have a C-section five, now home.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:50)
To just go home and just yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:53)
You're tired. You can't sleep. Luckily, I had a partner. Many people have to do this alone. They're now taking this child home, no support, no sleep. Their bodies are the most traumatized they've ever been. Your hormone levels are all over the place. They're having
Taina Brown she/hers (12:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:07)
to completely readjust. And that, especially if you're breastfeeding, but even if you're not, takes months to even years for your body to begin to resume, get back to its normal state of hormonal change or hormonal levels.
All of that, and you're left just like to figure it out. And then with the messaging
Taina Brown she/hers (12:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:23)
that you see when you go to the store and you look at the the grocery aisle and the magazine's talking about get your baby body, get rid of the baby bump, right? Bounce back.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:31)
Like you're you get no time off of work. You're expected to be back, to have everything figured out, to leave this little human and trust it to people you don't even know. How every person,
Taina Brown she/hers (12:39)
Yeah. It's a lot.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:41)
right? How every person doesn't go through that, honestly, on both sides, whether you
I again, whether you gave birth or not, whether you had the baby from your body or you were adopted or a surrogate or a million other ways that you can become a parent, how everyone doesn't struggle would be is a miracle, right? For peop anyone
Taina Brown she/hers (12:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:58)
to not struggle through that is a miracle. For it not to potentially move into depression is also a miracle. But again, most especially for those who birth because your hormone levels are so out of control.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:07)
Yeah,
yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:08)
That it's not something within your it's not just a sadness. It is a hormonal imbalance
Taina Brown she/hers (13:13)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:14)
that all these things are ta you know going on top of. And I think that we don't offer enough understanding, which is very evident because we don't offer, we don't have guaranteed or enforced leave. Right. There's you could be expected to be if you work minimum wage, you could be expected to be back to work the next day. Right? Or you're taking
Taina Brown she/hers (13:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:34)
time off that's unpaid.
If you have an employer nice enough to even give you that. And even if you have the very best job, the best leave I hear of in America is 12 weeks. And those are that's hard to find anymore. Very
Taina Brown she/hers (13:43)
Yeah. That's hard to get, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:46)
hard. It used to be more of a norm. It's becoming what's amazing is America has become less supportive for women in the workplace as more women are in the workplace. Amazing,
Taina Brown she/hers (13:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:54)
right? So you can it's the most you get is three months. And I am telling you at 12 weeks, most especially if you're breastfeeding, but even if you are not.
Your hormone
Taina Brown she/hers (14:02)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:02)
levels, if you gave birth, are not back to normal. They're not. It takes much longer than that. And so, you know, and then there I add on to all of that, the fear. Because I so I had postpartum anxiety. I would I wasn't, I don't know if that's technically depression or not, but so I wasn't diagnosed with postpartum depression, but postpartum anxiety where I was freaked out all the time. I was so worried about my kid to an unhealthy degree.
And that's not an abnormal thing to have happen. And I was because of that, I was terrified. Not only that my child could be harmed, die, whatever, that I might be responsible for him not being there, I was terrified they would take like he would somehow not be with me anymore.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:40)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:41)
And that is not a normal I mean, I think every new parent, and again, probably most especially those whose hormones are out of whack, get very concerned about their child being taken from them.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:51)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:51)
And again,
when we see the postpartum rates, they're higher among folks who are black, Latina, not white
Taina Brown she/hers (14:57)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:58)
folks. And I think a good part of that is because the reality bears out. They're more likely to lose their children. The system will take
Taina Brown she/hers (15:04)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:05)
their children, right? More than white folks who they will suddenly, there's more support systems there if they report it. So it goes so wildly under-reported. I didn't
Taina Brown she/hers (15:14)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:14)
want to talk to my doctor about it. All you have is a six-week follow-up.
Where you have to check a little piece of paper that says, Are you experiencing these things? That's it. That's the proof that they get on whether
Taina Brown she/hers (15:23)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:24)
you have postpartum. There's no visit with a psychologist or therapist or psychiatrist
Taina Brown she/hers (15:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:29)
or anyone. And honestly, it happens mostly at your pediatrician's office. They're not equipped to handle it. They're not your doctor. And even
Taina Brown she/hers (15:35)
Yeah, yeah. They're there for the for the child. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:39)
your gynecologist who you have a follow-up with.
They're not mental health professionals. So they basically have you check a few boxes. Maybe they'll ask you a question or two. It's easy enough to lie. It's easy enough to not tell the truth. And I think that that's why it goes so wildly underreported, because no one wants to speak the truth because they're terrified of having their child taken from them. If you say,
Taina Brown she/hers (15:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:58)
I'm overwhelmed by this, I don't know if I can do it, I'm scared of what might happen to my kid. Even if you say I'm scared I might hurt my kid, which is a
Taina Brown she/hers (16:06)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:07)
reality when you are so tired that you can't function.
But if you say that, what happens? Do you take my kid? Especially if I'm single? Especially if I'm
Taina Brown she/hers (16:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:16)
a part of a community where there's a track record of extra policing and children being taken simply because
Taina Brown she/hers (16:22)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:23)
we don't believe black women or we don't trust black women. So I
Taina Brown she/hers (16:25)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:28)
just how everyone doesn't experience this. And it's one of those things we don't talk about for those reasons. There's all the shame around that because women
Taina Brown she/hers (16:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:36)
are made to believe they're supposed to immediately love their children.
They're supposed to immediately know how to care for their children. They're supposed to immediately have their bodies back. They're supposed to immediately be able to be back at work and smiling and acting normal. Like the pressure that we put on people, they don't want to talk about it. Like we don't want to be the one who's like, actually, it was really fucking hard. And that's
Taina Brown she/hers (16:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:52)
the gift I tried to give people is I always try to say like, it's fucking hard. And I didn't love my child the second I saw him. It took a little bit. It took, I mean, it wasn't long,
Taina Brown she/hers (16:59)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:00)
but I had to hold him and stuff first. And then I was like, but I remember that feeling of, my God, I don't feel anything yet.
I'm a horrible mom.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:06)
No.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:07)
Can I even be a mom? Like, what am I gonna do here if I don't even love this kid? Like, how can this be?
Taina Brown she/hers (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:12)
Because I didn't have all those deep feelings for this thing inside my body. I was mostly just like, there's an alien in my body that's ruining it.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:19)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:20)
So, anyway, there's just so much there. And the biggest problem is there is no support network. There's no structural system to make sure that we avoid these issues or that we.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:31)
Help people through the issues. You're not gonna get rid of postpartum depression, but can we learn to help people through it instead of shame them or silence them?
Taina Brown she/hers (17:39)
Yeah, yeah. I think also like socially there's the pregnancy part of of having a child is like really romanticized, right? Like there's the shopping and the baby showers and the excitement and setting up the nursery, right? And the announcement and the gender reveal. If you you know if you subscribe or ascribe to those things, right? But then afterwards it's like, okay, then then what? Right. And so if if there aren't enough social
Becky Mollenkamp (18:06)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:06)
support
structures, as you said. Then it's like, okay, well now the fun part is over and now the hard part begins and you're kind of on your own. And there's also a lack of just research on women's bodies and and and on birthing bodies and what happens to them afterwards and and how to best support them. And so because of the lack of research, like healthcare providers are just not equipped.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:28)
So ill equipped. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:30)
They don't know how to handle it, right? They don't know necessarily how to
To deal with that, unless they have like personal experience with it, and then they have you know that that level of of knowledge about it. But even then, it's like personal experience can only take you so far because again, everyone can experience it so differently based on so many different factors, right? Based on your own body, based on your social support system, based on your race, your gender, your class, your geography, right? There's so like who your partner is.
all of their identity markers, right? And so, and I think, you know, I as I was like just researching like Hayden's story, like growing up with an abusive mom and then having an abusive partner before she was partnered with with Vlad and and had her daughter, like that's a lot of trauma to undergo. And so already like trauma on a young brain already
messes you up, right? There's al already a lot of stuff to work through. and I can't imagine like puddling on having a child on top of that. And I'm not saying that she did or didn't make the right choice. I think that's a personal decision everyone has to make. but I know like for me personally, like I just I just know that I I just still have so much work to do before I feel like I could be fit to be anyone's parent.
And for that reason, like I have chosen to be child free because I'm just like, I don't want to have to like put myself in that position. but also bring another life into this world and make that life harder for, you know, for for someone that I'm supposed to protect and that I'm supposed to like care for.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:05)
Right. And obviously acknowledging
that not everyone gets pregnant or has a child by choice. Not everyone and and even if it is absolutely
Taina Brown she/hers (20:12)
By choice, yeah. Yeah. That's a privilege in and of itself.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:16)
right the privilege to be able to afford birth control, or in your case, the privilege of being a lesbian or with a woman, so you don't you're not a lesbian, but being with a woman so you don't have to worry about that in the first place.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:25)
But obviously in your case it takes efforting to it would be it would
Taina Brown she/hers (20:28)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:28)
take efforting for you two to have a child, where for some people that's not the case, and there's all sorts of reasons why people
Get pregnant sometimes even when you really want, you think you want to, you think you're ready, the thing is too, you don't know because you can't know until you do it. And
Taina Brown she/hers (20:39)
You don't know because you've never been through it before.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:42)
because like you said, it's so romanticized, and I see young girls doing this all the time, rushing into, and I feel like there's some similarities here with marriage. Obviously, the it's different in that I don't think that I mean it's they're both big things, they're both monumental things that we romanticize.
We romanticized the wedding the engagement and the wedding and the pictures and the the ceremony and the blah blah blah. And then people get hit with the hard reality of and now it's marriage and marriage is hard fucking work. And marriage isn't always
Taina Brown she/hers (21:07)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:08)
fun and it isn't always easy. And it sometimes you want to like freaking kill your partner or like
Taina Brown she/hers (21:12)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:12)
run away or whatever. Like, you know, it's not an easy thing. The difference being divorce is an option. Thankfully now that has not always been the case. As it is an option, there is a way to exit a marriage without r you know.
Child of a lifelong endeavor. There's no, like, I mean, I suppose
Taina Brown she/hers (21:26)
You can't yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:27)
there are some ways to exit that, but it's not easy, right? Like once you have the kid and you're past a certain age, there's no more like I'm gonna give the baby up or whatever. So anyway, but I do think it's similar in that we romanticize things and we make it seem like all we get focused on is the fun part, and we don't talk
Taina Brown she/hers (21:42)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:42)
nearly enough about the hard parts of things in life. And just like marriage is hard and you don't hear that a lot, and so then I think what happens also, there's a lot of shame there if
Your marriage is struggling, or if you're challenged by marriage, it's like it's supposed to be so great. And maybe, you know, what's wrong with me that I can't just make this work? And why isn't it always fun? And because we see that marriage we see these depictions of marriage where it's like, you complete me, you're my bestie. We just love each other all the time. Everything's so great and romantic. And it's like, that's not the truth of what marriage looks like. Marriage looks like fighting, marriage looks like
Taina Brown she/hers (22:09)
No, no, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:11)
getting really angry with each other. It looks like crying together. It looks
Taina Brown she/hers (22:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:15)
like struggling together financially or other
Taina Brown she/hers (22:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:17)
ways. Like
Marriage isn't just always fun and roses. It's hard work. And parenting is the
Taina Brown she/hers (22:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:22)
same way where it's not just a cute little baby that you get to put in little outfits and like, aren't they adorable? It's not sleeping. It's them being sick and you freaking out because you don't know how to take care of them. It's them hurting themselves and the you feeling their pain intensely. It's them making decisions you wish they wouldn't and not being able to fix it for them. Like there's just so much that we don't talk about. And we do ourselves such a disservice in that case.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:46)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. How do you how do you think like community has like helped you in your parenthood journey?
Becky Mollenkamp (22:52)
I don't know
how people my husband and I talk about this all the time because we see parents who have multiple children. I just saw a woman online who's having her f twelfth children and I think five of five of them were twins. Five
Taina Brown she/hers (23:01)
Jesus Buck, what the hell?
Becky Mollenkamp (23:04)
she had like five sets. She's on our fifth set of twins.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:06)
Are they like
Mormon or like Catholic
or?
Becky Mollenkamp (23:09)
Probably. They
had some she had some shit about Christ. I don't know how it sh it showed up in my feed on threads, but I just was like, how do people have more than one kid in this economy? But also just like the challenge wise. I mean we see our friends that have multiple kids and they make it work. And I think that's the answer is often you just make it work, but it's also really hard and
Taina Brown she/hers (23:29)
But but here's the thing, like there's a difference between like making it work and like thriving. And I think people
Becky Mollenkamp (23:35)
Well exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:36)
don't like conflate those two things sometimes. Like they don't understand
Becky Mollenkamp (23:38)
But I don't think everybody ex
Taina Brown she/hers (23:40)
the difference.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:40)
I don't think everybody wants to thrive or understand or thinks about thriving as the goal. Like I think so many people are wired to just see survival as their goal because it's what they've experienced. They don't know that there's something else or that that's possible.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:50)
Mm, mm, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:54)
Cause I think so many of us come from experiences of our parents, certainly my mom's parents, right? Like going back a couple generations, the the depression generation, it was like that is a
Taina Brown she/hers (24:03)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:03)
survival generation.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:05)
And I think so
many of them raise those baby boomer kids to as much as they wanted to challenge a lot of norms. I think in many ways, many of them never really left that survival mentality because they experienced
Taina Brown she/hers (24:14)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:15)
it so closely. And so then I think like Gen X and millennials are also like trying to some I
Taina Brown she/hers (24:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:21)
think are challenging it more, but some still like that that stuff lives in us, right? So I think there's
Taina Brown she/hers (24:26)
It does, it does.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:27)
many people who just think that way, but I couldn't do it without support. My mom
Taina Brown she/hers (24:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:31)
was the one who my mom and his parents
Like the the years before a kid starts school, childcare is ungodly expensive. And I don't think people understand
Taina Brown she/hers (24:38)
It's so expensive.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:40)
so many people have kids. And again, there's
Taina Brown she/hers (24:42)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:43)
many people are having kids for reasons that are not like they were like, this will be fun and easy. So I I acknowledge
Taina Brown she/hers (24:47)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:48)
that. But I think many people are hit by the hard reality of the expense
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:51)
of a child when you as soon as you hit the childcare thing, which in America, because we don't have any structural systems, is immediately. And it can be thousands
Taina Brown she/hers (24:58)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:59)
a month, tens of thousands a year.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:02)
To have somebody reliable, care for your child and keep them alive. And think about that. Like, think about being forced with the decision. I was lucky. I had parents, my parent, my mom and his parents who were able to step in and provide some care, not full-time, but it helped enough that I was able to get some work done, make some income, you know, and still feel good with my kid, being safe and all of that. But
Taina Brown she/hers (25:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:23)
imagine that decision parents have to make of going and seeing, I see some of the options that are out there. I've been in some of them in my own when I was a child.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:31)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:31)
There
are some god-awful childcare facilities,
Taina Brown she/hers (25:33)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:34)
god-awful, that you wouldn't want to leave your kid in. And yet you don't have a choice because no.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:36)
Yeah. You have no choice, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:39)
And just like everything else in America, just like our school system and everything else, it can vary wildly based on your ability to pay, meaning based on your class, people who have more money, their kids get a much better childcare situation than
Taina Brown she/hers (25:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:52)
the ones who don't, where it can be really awful. That's a terrible
Taina Brown she/hers (25:55)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:56)
thing. And so, of course, I mean, there's another piece where you go back to class.
Because I sent you some stats too that said the rates were higher among people. So I'm trying to find this to say here it is. Mothers age under 24. Hayden was twenty-five. Those living in rural areas are at a twenty one higher twenty-one percent higher risk of suffering from postpartum depression. And then individuals with lower educational attainment also, which often has to do with class as well. So like classes and race are a big part of this. And that
often
Taina Brown she/hers (26:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:26)
Austin
often are also those people are having to make those horrible choices around what kind of childcare they're gonna get. So if you know you are four weeks, three weeks postpartum, you now have to get back to work because you got to pay to live. You got to put your kid into childcare. It's a bad situation. It's only gonna exacerbate all of those feelings you're already having around Adepress.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:45)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:46)
And I know Hayden mentioned too, I wanted to come back to this too. She said something in one of the things you sent me about how she was experiencing this feeling of like
She had everything. She had quote unquote had it all. You know, she was famous. She was okay financially, all the things, and yet she wasn't happy. And that only made the happiness even the unhappiness heavier. And I
Taina Brown she/hers (27:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:05)
can really relate to that too, having been at a place where I had this great on paper life and wasn't happy. And there's a lot of isolation and loneliness in that. So even
Taina Brown she/hers (27:13)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:13)
if you don't quite like, you know, she's white, she's rich, she's you know, she's not meeting a lot of the criteria that often exacerbate
Taina Brown she/hers (27:19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:20)
postpartum.
But it also can affect anyone. I th
Taina Brown she/hers (27:23)
Anyone, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:24)
didn't somebody else that was famous talked about their postpartum. I feel like it might have been Halle Berry, but that might be because she's talking about paramenopause, and that's why I'm thinking her. But some other a few other people have talked about it. But it
Taina Brown she/hers (27:33)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:34)
goes it it's not something I think that people really talk about.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:38)
Yeah, yeah. It's and you know, I think with the childcare thing, like I I don't think 'cause I don't want people listening to like also misunderstand. Like I think childcare should be expensive. Like I think people who take care of other people's children should get paid well.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:51)
Absolutely, but it should be subsidized.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:53)
Like, but that burden should not fall on the parent. Like that should be something that right.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:58)
Correct. It should be subsidized and it should be
equal. This is a case
Taina Brown she/hers (28:02)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:03)
where, like, I don't think no child chooses to be born. No
Taina Brown she/hers (28:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:06)
child made the choice to be born into poverty or whatever the thing is. And so people will be like, well, that's their that's the parent. Sure. I don't agree with that. But if you want to go into the like the parents deserve less because they,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:16)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:17)
whatever your bullshit beliefs are.
But it's never the child. No baby said, ooh, I want to be born into poverty. And they
Taina Brown she/hers (28:20)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:23)
shouldn't be penalized for that. Children should have the same start to life.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:27)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:28)
Right? I just it it and that we are. This is where America falls down big time. Where we fall down big time. Because in Europe, a
Taina Brown she/hers (28:34)
So hard, so hard.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:36)
lot of European and Asian nations, I sent this to you too, that they fund universal at-home visits by midwives or specialized nurse nurses to screen for postpartum depression.
We have nothing
Taina Brown she/hers (28:47)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:47)
like that, other than, like I said, the little checkbox paper thing that's
Taina Brown she/hers (28:50)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:50)
bullshit. And then obviously they also have paid family leave, many of them for a year or more, right? Many of them have
Taina Brown she/hers (28:57)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:58)
universal pre-K to keep kids, you know, give them a good start. These are massive differences from what we have. And then what we have is even the Democrats. Hakeem Jeffries, just the last two days, said he doesn't believe in universal health care. He doesn't think we should have universal health care. And he's supposed to be representing the force for change.
America's really broken. And these examples
Taina Brown she/hers (29:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:18)
of a there's no reason Hayden Pantier should be dead that we know of. Again, we don't know what it was.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:24)
But I just don't believe my brother should have been dead from a a drug overdose while waiting for a bed. He was waiting to get care and died. That stuff shouldn't happen. A 36-year-old woman shouldn't be faced with these decisions she's having to make all alone without support. This is it how people look at that and think.
Yeah, that's that's okay. That's good.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:45)
It it's mind blowing. It really
Becky Mollenkamp (29:45)
Wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:48)
is mind blowing.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:49)
Doesn't it hurt your head? Cause you just like I try really hard.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:51)
It does.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:52)
Like, even if I try to get into their mindset, I'm like, I don't know how you get into a mind frame to say, Yeah, that sounds about right to me.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:57)
Yeah. I I I think a lot of it for me and I'm speaking here having come out of the cult of evangelicalism, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (30:05)
Mm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:06)
And I think when I was in that bubble, when I was in that space, everything gets judged as a moral success or a moral failure. And so if it becomes a moral failure, then it becomes a deserved outcome.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:22)
And because
of that, I think that allows people to disengage with their humanity in a way that makes it okay to see someone else as less deserving of dignity and of their own humanity and of empathy. Right. And so, I mean, there was there was a whole campaign just a few years ago about empathy being a bad thing, right? From like the MAGA conservative faction, right? It's like,
Becky Mollenkamp (30:45)
I know, I know. It's just
wild.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:48)
Well, we don't
want to empathize. Empathy is a bad word. Empathy is a bad thing because then you feel sorry for these people. And if you feel sorry, it's a slippery slope. And then you want to give them their rights back, you know. And it's like, when did that become the line? And the reality is that line has been pushing, pushing, pushing, right? Like it wasn't always
Becky Mollenkamp (31:09)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:09)
there. It begins at deciding that someone's life.
Is a result of what you see as a moral failure, right? How you measure your own life.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:22)
Yeah, I mean, listen, I think ultimately the answer is when did it become it was the day America, quote unquote, the United States was was founded or people they landed
Taina Brown she/hers (31:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:31)
on Plymouth Rock because the you know, it's these Christian nationalists who came here. And you know, I think we like to believe this story around they came here because they wanted more religious freedom. And I think the truth is is they they weren't able to ex have the religious freedom they sought.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:48)
They want it, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:49)
It wasn't about them wanting religious freedom for other people. They wanted to be able to do exactly what this is. They wanted this puritanical
Taina Brown she/hers (31:54)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:55)
way of living and believing. And because that wasn't something that was allowed, they came here and framed
Taina Brown she/hers (32:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:02)
it as religious freedom. But the truth is, it's not, it was never about freedom for other religions. It was about freedom for their puritanical views. And it's exactly
Taina Brown she/hers (32:07)
No. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:10)
what it is. And it makes me sad because you're, I mean, you're exactly right. That that white Christian nationalist.
Thing is all about moralizing and in that being able to create these hierarchies that we talk about
Taina Brown she/hers (32:22)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:22)
all the time and being able to support that in a way. Now we know that the most of the people who are actually the puppet masters, the ones who are at the highest levels of this, they don't believe any of the morality piece of it. They just want to retain power. And how
Taina Brown she/hers (32:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:36)
they do that is by convincing other people that that's a moral decision on their
Taina Brown she/hers (32:38)
Other people that it's true. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:40)
part to maintain these systems that don't benefit them.
Right? And or benefit them slightly more than the people they don't benefit. And
Taina Brown she/hers (32:48)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:49)
so, yeah, exactly. And the part that makes me so angry is listen, I'm never I'm not a Christian, I never really have been. But I have enough understanding growing up in a Christian, a de facto Christian nation that I know Jesus, what I know of Jesus, and the people who s who spout on about Jesus,
Taina Brown she/hers (33:04)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:04)
he would be disgusted if he were a
Taina Brown she/hers (33:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:07)
human and alive. And were he real, I don't know.
But what I know of him, this is not he would not say yes, please, use your virtue as a way to treat others badly to justify
Taina Brown she/hers (33:16)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:17)
your disgusting treatment of other humans. And the fact that that's
Taina Brown she/hers (33:20)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:21)
what that somehow that gets warped and then
Taina Brown she/hers (33:24)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:24)
like accepted is baffling to me. But it is, it is what it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:27)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean that would that was the that that was
That that was I think the the turning point for me, like when when I did go back to school and I started to like do a deeper dive on like the history of just the world. Like just it it was literally sitting in a fucking history class talking about the the crusades. And I was like, wait, this is not how I remember learning about the crusades growing up, like in elementary school in high school.
Right, because in college you do a deeper dive. And then I think in that moment I was like, this is not a religion I want to associate myself with. Right. Because it's it's this idea of spreading the gospel or this idea of just being loyal and faithful to a religion that is okay with this kind of behavior is is not okay with me. And I think
what was I gonna say? yeah, just it's it's it's wild and the mental gymnastics that it takes for people to to hold on to their belief system at a time like this during these like kinds of circumstances it and and I get it because again, like I s I I s I somehow
Underst like I understand the experience, right? Because I was there. And so I understand that looking back, I understand that at some point I myself was doing those mental gymnastics. I myself was like the one doubling down and like just being like, No, but this is what it says, this is what I believe, right? And so and I think when you have like a all powerful, omnipotent being that you can say that you can fall back on, like any argument isn't
doesn't stand up to that, right? 'Cause you can say, Well God said, Well God said, Well God said and it's like, how do you argue against that?
Becky Mollenkamp (35:13)
It's a great question, and I wish I knew more of the answers. I do I will say I I listen to a lot of because I'm a bit of an Anglophile and if I had my choice I'd live in England. I just feel like it's I don't know, it speaks to me. The the humor there, the the f just every the the mood, the the attitude. Anyway, so I listen to a lot of British news shows and British talk shows and things like that. And I will say one thing I've been noticing lately.
Is that the British news shows have been having more conversations about what they're noticing with American politics and this sort of backlash that's that's bubbling, right? And for a long time, the Democratic establishment has been trying to say, no, it's these fringe folks on the left, and they're trying to create drama inside the inside the left, and like these are just fringe folks. It's they're like the mad that people will call them the blue maga, whatever.
You know, these more progressive socialist kind of folks. I I I'm part of the blue maga, apparently, this like
Taina Brown she/hers (36:08)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:09)
leftist society. And I'm sure you are as well. And because I don't identify as a Democrat. I I haven't for quite a long time.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:15)
But many people like we're seeing with Mamdani, with some of the elections in Michigan where there were some Democratic socialists who won, there is this like, and of course, you know, it's early in this thing, but you can feel there is at least some amount of
Groundswell support for real
Taina Brown she/hers (36:30)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:31)
meaningful change. And the British folks have been sort of commenting and noticing of this and saying things like, but can America ever be socialist? Right. And you know, they're living in a in a more like Europe is a is largely more of a democratic socialist sort of
Taina Brown she/hers (36:45)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:46)
system and throughout most of Europe. And they're looking at us going, like, is that something that could work here? And it's very interesting hearing their perspectives on like that is.
not how we were founded. It is not what we've ever been about. It's what we've fought for the longest time. And I think for a long time they've been like, there's just no way. And l in the last few weeks, there's been this like, could there be? Could this be?
Taina Brown she/hers (37:05)
Did it happen? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:06)
Could this be that there's been enough that people are saying we need not just some change, but serious, serious fucking change. Like we need better support systems. And I think they're starting to notice like maybe. And I've always thought it interesting because British I find British folks are really
Well versed in colonialism and the colonial experiment, and because
Taina Brown she/hers (37:27)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:27)
you know they're one of the biggest offenders, right? And I think they learn a lot about that there because there's a lot of commentary, even by like comedians and stuff. They're very aware. They're less aware around, I've noticed, around issues around slavery and some of that history. I
Taina Brown she/hers (37:39)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:39)
feel like that is where I think Americans do a better job. On the whole, progressive Americans have a deeper understanding, a better understanding of.
Of slavery, it's the history and how that affects systems today. Whereas I get the British seem to have this better understanding around colonialism, that history and how it affects systems, and not necessarily both. So it's very interesting.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:58)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:59)
But because of that, I feel like they do kind of understand how we were founded. I think they learn a lot about that. And just this, like for them to be noticing, maybe, maybe, like it gives me this little glimmer of hope because you know the the out
What I would like to leave this conversation with is just what do we want to see, right? Going back
Taina Brown she/hers (38:17)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:17)
to what I've been challenged by in the past by people. We have got to develop real systems of support in this country for all of the phases of life that most of us
Taina Brown she/hers (38:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:27)
experience. We do a shit job around death and dying. We do a shit job around birth and, you know, postpartum. We do a shit job around education and care and health. We do a real shit job around mental health.
I would like to see us have systems that are subsidized because we
Taina Brown she/hers (38:41)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:42)
collectively say these things matter and the outcomes of those ripple out to society, right? These
Taina Brown she/hers (38:49)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:49)
are not isolated incidents. They have a ripple effect that harms us as a culture, as a society. And because of that, we all want to see our money going towards subsidizing things that allow everyone to have these basic needs met. Before
Taina Brown she/hers (39:03)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04)
that happens, though, what I would love to offer people is.
When someone gives birth, don't just get the cute onesie and then hightail it out of there. Show up
Taina Brown she/hers (39:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:13)
a month later, two months later, with meals, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (39:17)
With
meals, do the laundry, do the dishes, feed the baby, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:19)
Send somebody over to give them a house
to clean their house. Don't say, I'm here if you need me. Say, I'm gonna come over. Or maybe just say, when can I come over? Because I'm going to do your laundry. And if they say
Taina Brown she/hers (39:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:31)
no, say yes, just tell me what day I will be there. Right? Like
Taina Brown she/hers (39:33)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:34)
tell people specifically what you want to do to support because people feel very bad about asking. We are conditioned not to. But just
Taina Brown she/hers (39:39)
This is yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:41)
know that your responsibility as part of the society in which you live is not just to do the sweet, like,
Yay, baby, and show up at the shower. But it's to like say, how do I help you in these in this year ahead? And I will tell you, at least a year. And for many moms, I would say that postpartum season goes on, they call it the third trimester, and it's more than a year, right? It from
Taina Brown she/hers (40:02)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:03)
in my case, I didn't feel back to normal for four years. Four
Taina Brown she/hers (40:06)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:07)
years before I really felt like, okay, because and I breastfed for all
Taina Brown she/hers (40:10)
You're leveling out
Becky Mollenkamp (40:11)
like over a year. And so it I my hormones, as long as you're breastfeeding, your hormones are not.
Back to normal yet, right? So if you're doing that, then it's even longer. So just
Taina Brown she/hers (40:20)
Mm.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:20)
think about how can you support people in these experiences. And by the way, same for if someone dies, don't just go to the funeral
Taina Brown she/hers (40:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:26)
and then walk away. How can I show up for you three months later when you're still having a really hard time, right? All of these things that we're talking about. What about
Taina Brown she/hers (40:33)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:34)
for you? Like what does community collective care look like around these issues?
Taina Brown she/hers (40:38)
Yeah, I mean, I I'm not a parent, so I don't I don't know, you know, I can't really speak on that, but I know I know the experience of going through medical trauma, of going through body trauma
Becky Mollenkamp (40:48)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:49)
in a hospital. And and I think every everything that you said is on point, right? Just like showing up after the fact, not just like I had people come visit me in the hospital, right? But then I also had, you know, people come afterwards and be like, what do you guys need? Can we bring a meal? Like
So like doing those things, I think it's important. And one thing I I I want to make sure we we also just say is like like this makes me think of school, the school lunch program and
how that got started officially as a thing. Stro that got started structurally as a thing because the government saw how the Black Panther Party was providing meals for their community. And so
Becky Mollenkamp (41:31)
And by the way, they're trying
to strip that away again and are successfully in many places. Certainly breakfasts and many lunches as well.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:34)
They are really stripping that away. Yeah,
yeah. And so my point is that there are always pockets of communities that are doing these things for each other. So until it becomes a structural thing, until it becomes like an actual systematized social net across, you know, the county, the state, the country, whatever, like how we
support each other inside of our insulated communities matters, right? Because
Becky Mollenkamp (42:07)
It does.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:07)
it can become the model for for something bigger, right? And even if it doesn't, it's it's still gonna provide that support that we need. So within
Becky Mollenkamp (42:15)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:16)
your community, how can you set that up right now? Right. Like how can you do those things right now? Like and I just remember being in my 20s and having a lot because I was in this evangelical community, like there were a lot of young marriages, which meant that there were a lot of
Early 20 year olds having babies. And one thing I will say that we did really well within my own evangelical community was community. Like that's why I'm still friends with so many of the people that I was friends with 20 years ago.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:46)
I think that's
I think that's why so many people join churches to begin with. They're just desperate for community. And they provide that.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:49)
Right. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. And we would do meal trains, right? For at least two weeks, sometimes a month, right? We would
Becky Mollenkamp (42:58)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:59)
go over and help with, you know, changing diapers and and giving Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how can we take that model and
Becky Mollenkamp (43:04)
And churches usually run pantries and things like that to help people in need. Yeah. We can create those. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:12)
you don't have to you don't have to be a part of a religious community to do those things. Like you can still do those things.
without having that that overhead, right? Of or that like that that buy-in into any kind of like religious structure. And so I think it's really important for for us to be able to be there for each other because whether or not this country can ever become democratic socialists, whether or not school lunches will remain in place, whether or not, you know, childcare Head Star, you know, support
for for parents, supports for people who lose people, supports for the elderly will ever become a thing. Like we still have each other. Like that's still something we don't need permission to do that is my point. We don't need permission
Becky Mollenkamp (43:53)
Right. And
Taina Brown she/hers (43:54)
to be that for each other.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:56)
absolutely. And I would just I would end it by saying, and expand what your definition of community means. Because unfortunately,
Taina Brown she/hers (44:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:02)
what happens is this stuff becomes very insular inside of privileged communities, right? And
Taina Brown she/hers (44:06)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:06)
then it stay it circulates and stays within those in inside of those communities. And then that just only continues the problem. So wherever you can, try to challenge yourself to expand what your community means, who's in your community, how do you do outreach to broaden that community, widen the
Taina Brown she/hers (44:21)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:21)
community.
because that stuff matters too. So
Taina Brown she/hers (44:23)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:24)
thank you. This was great. I hope you have a wonderful day. Rest in peace, Hayden. Sorry that that you know, like but it was
Taina Brown she/hers (44:29)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:30)
a great entree into a conversation that I think is really important. So have them. Thank you. I feel for her daughter, obviously. That's gotta be the hardest of all of it. So
Taina Brown she/hers (44:33)
Yeah, yeah. I hope her family is finding I yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:40)
much empathy there. Even if they don't want me to have empathy. I they can't take it. They'll take my empathy for like cold time.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:44)
They can't take my empathy away.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:46)
Exactly. All right. Talk to you later.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:49)
Aí.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:50)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.