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In this episode, I chat to Simon Curran a founder and CEO of Noloco about the no-code business, Y Combinator and finding product market fit.
Welcome to Startups with Niall Maher.
This show is to going give you tips, strategies and advice to grow your business and hopefully entertain you along the way.
Niall will introduce experts and resources that he is always learning from.
It’s all about sharing that experience with YOU.
Niall has worked in nearly every corner of technology businesses; Lead Developer, Software Architect, Product Manager, CTO and now happily a Founder.
You’ll also get to hear live calls with special guests (such as founders, authors and experts).
Thanks for listening and let’s grow together.
Niall Maher: No code
on low-code solutions.
I have been getting a lot of attention
lately and for a good reason.
These tools allow businesses to
create custom applications without
the need for expensive and time
consuming development cycles.
And as a result, they can speed
up the process of bringing a new
product or service to market.
And since no-code and locals are usually
easy to use, if they're built well.
They are ideal for businesses that don't
have a team of developers and need to
get stuff done quickly So if you've been
hearing a lot about no-code low-code
solutions lately, now you'll know why.
For many non-technical founders.
The idea of coding a solution from
scratch can be a little bit scary.
And thankfully there are so many
different solutions out there now that
you can build complex applications
without a lot of coding knowledge.
These solutions typically involve a
drag and drop interface and prebuilt
blocks which makes it possible to
create sophisticated applications.
With minimal to no coding.
In most cases, these solutions are
also much cheaper and faster to
deploy down a custom coded solution.
So they are an ideal option for both
technical and non-technical founders
who want to get their product to
market quickly and efficiently
and start testing the business
rather than paying for an
expensive development team
on spending a ton of time.
Usually to plan with no and low code
solutions is to eventually throw away
the solution and bespoke the bill,
the solution when the time comes.
But some businesses are getting huge
results without a total rebuild.
For example.
Makerpad is an app that teaches
entrepreneurs to save time
and increase their efficiency
by building no code projects.
So this one is a little bit meta.
And it generated over $200,000 in
less than a year with no code stack,
including web flow air table and Zapier.
Another example that started
with no code and continued in a
hybrid fashion of both no code.
And code is coins spelled Q O I N
S, which helps people pay off debt.
It raised $750,000 on its
no-code solution and investment.
And still brags about how they
leverage no code wherever possible to
speed up the process and development.
Currently to have received a
toll funding of $2.3 million.
So I'm excited to see where they take it.
So if you've been thinking of trying
out no-code or low-code solutions,
there's probably no better time.
And while I was going down
this rabbit hole to get better
accustomed with these tools, I
got an introduction today's guest.
Today's guest is a handsome
fellow called Simon Curran.
He is a founder and the CEO of an
app building platform called Noloco.
Noloco helps you instantly create customer
portals, partner apps and internal tools
from your air table or Google sheets.
Noloco have one of the most beautiful
and simple interfaces on the market for
building a data driven app with no code.
They have been through Y Combinator
and are growing their team.
So Simon is full of useful
advice around product, no code
and pivoting business ideas.
So let's jump into the episode and
hear from the main man himself.
first off Simon, thanks a million for
joining me and it would be great if
you just introduce yourself before
we share what everyone, the wonders
of low-code and no-code and all of
the stuff that, you're working on.
Simon Curran: Yeah, sure.
And it's great to figure it out
and thanks very much for having me.
So my name's Simon, I I'm co-founder
of Noloco and Noloco is a no-code
platform for teams to build web
apps from their business data.
So if you have data in spreadsheets
or tools like air table, or Google
sheets, you can basically connect that
to our platform and we'll automatically
build an app for you around that data.
So if you're a business looking to
share information with customers or
your internal team or partners, um,
we can basically help you build.
Customer portals, internal tools,
partner ops without actually
writing any code at yourselves.
So, yeah, we started working on that.
Last summer is when we went full
time and we got acceptance, the
Y Combinator accelerator program.
We can of course go into a bit more
detail on that, if you'd like Niall.
But yeah, before that, I was
basically a product manager myself.
I worked at a couple of
different tech companies here
in Ireland, London and the UK.
So I started off working out she's
then TripAdvisor, then Reverend.
And before coming back to Ireland,
but near the start of the pandemic
and working for a flip dish.
And then yeah.
Basically went full time on
the loca there last year.
So that's a little bit about me.
And besides that I'm from Dublin.
I studied business and economics
in university and Trinity
graduated from that in 2018.
And yeah, That's a bit about me.
Niall Maher: So you have plenty of history
and product and product strategy and.
The degree behind it as
well to make us at work.
I guess that's where I'm often
feel like an imposter when it
comes to business and things.
Is I just, I don't have a degree really.
So I'm often looking at things and
go, I'm just going to figure it out.
I'll, you know, as we
Simon Curran: yeah, I, I don't think
you necessarily need one, but yeah.
You know, I think university is
really good for, and probably maturing
and learning about like different
things to let you know, in terms of
what I studied specifically in like
business and economics, I don't think
it necessarily prepare me for like
startup life or anything like that.
And certainly very few of my.
My, my peers went into tech or
similar roles that I went into.
But yeah, definitely learned a
lot from the experience overall.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
And Chris from flip dish is the
one who recommended it because
he was on recently as well.
He had nothing but great things
to say about you and also very
heartbroken that you left.
So, obviously you are doing good work
and flip dish as well, which is awesome.
But it looks at things
fantastic work with no local.
Cause I see it popping up more and more.
I dunno, it's one of those things.
As soon as you fixate on something,
it just seems to be everywhere.
I'm really excited to really
figure out what kind of areas
you're targeting with this.
Who's using it and where you're
finding most value right now
and where you're going with it.
Simon Curran: Yeah, sure.
I can touch on some of those things there.
So our customer base at the moment
is quite broad, I would say.
So the variety of customers
in various different uses.
Most of our customers are based in the us.
So I would say probably
around 65% right now.
And that's by no means like we didn't
set Irish for it to be like that.
It just so happened.
I'd say most of the kinds of inbound,
organic kind of leads we would have
gotten what have come from the U S
and variety of different industries.
So, you know, have people and kind
of real estate businesses, financial
lenders to some kind of agencies and
very much client facing businesses.
And some startups as well.
So very much a variety, which I think is
quite common amongst no-code platforms
that, you know, you probably get some
that are quite niche and quite like
specific around a particular vertical,
but a lot would be quite broad because
fundamentally what it comes down to.
Similar use cases whereby people want
to share a data either with their team
or external stakeholders like customers
or partners, they want to do it.
in a secure way.
That's obviously quite a common
thing, regardless of loss
industry you're necessarily.
But yeah, that's a little bit that
she has some of our customers on.
Yeah, It was really towards the
end of last year that we launched
the current version of the product,
which really tries to make it easy
to build web operated your data.
We took away some of the flexibility,
I guess, is some of the kind of styling
options to make it a simpler experience.
And I think that's really
resonated with SMBs.
Now they might not necessarily
be very technical themselves.
But you know, there's empowering
these people to build web
apps without writing any code.
We do have some developers as well.
and I, know you, you're obviously
very very technical yourself Niall.
We do actually have, people who panned
code using the platform as well, and
they love it because they can get up
and running a lot quicker than having
to a lot of maybe infrastructure and
boilerplate kind of stuff themselves.
But yeah, it resonates with both
those who kind code ons, obviously
that was the current as well.
Niall Maher: It's one thing
I struggled to consult on.
It's like nearly like a blind
spot for me at the moment.
Fix because a lot of people ask
me about say MVPs and building
MVPs and what should they build?
And , I often get asked, what about
no-code or low-code solutions?
Should I look at this?
And I'm always just kind of like, I'm
not sure, I guess, so if you can build
it then yes, but I haven't used enough
of it to know how great this is, but.
Even from talking to Chris and seeing
what you're doing there, I can see that
people are building substantial products
on these things as well and scaling up.
And until they really, even if they need
something different, because sometimes you
don't, you think you need a lot more than
you do a lot of times, because usually
it is just sharing data and editing.
Simon Curran: Yeah, that's it.
And I think, we are seeing a lot of
startups nowadays, starting out looking
to build something on a no-code platform.
And then everyone probably has it
in their minds that sometime they
will graduates if you like, or
move on or maybe build internally.
When it comes to it, I'd say a lot
probably to just end up sticking with.
At building stuff internally, it's
very difficult, very time consuming.
It'll take ages.
There, there will be issues, just as,
there probably are issues that you
deal with, with a no-code platform,
if it doesn't quite fit your needs.
But yeah, what I would say is that in
terms of our platform specifically,
there's are some startups building like
MVPs with no local book in general.
Oh, our platform really works best.
If you hop data and there's data
you specifically want to share.
So let's say for a real estate company,
they've data on like properties or maybe
like lenders have like loan requests
and borrowers and things like that.
Whereas a startup often
doesn't actually have any data.
So they're starting off with like,
from scratch, not having to come
up with a data model and stuff.
So.
Yeah, we don't necessarily seek out
those types of customers building MVPs
because, starting up is hard and, they
are probably the most likely to churn
as well as from a platform like RSA,
it's more kind of established SMB stuff
And it would be the kind of customers
that we'd ideally be attracting.
Niall Maher: And that
kind of brings me in.
I was going to ask what's different on
your platform, but I guess it is using.
Sources of data as the database for
all of this stuff, it drives it's
driven by data versus I have I haven't
seen anything else that doesn't like
this really, or maybe there is, I
guess don't give your competitors a
plug anyway, to screw those guys and
nothing else exists if you want data.
But is there anything else that I'm
not seeing that you find is building up
moat for you or not competitive edge?
Simon Curran: Yeah, sure.
So I think, it's, there's
definitely a lot of different tools.
No-code space and people have taken
lots of different approaches altogether.
Some of the most kind of popular
household name like tools I have,
there'll be something like web flow.
For example, that's, amazing for
building like really beautiful
websites and landing pages and blogs.
But it's all really around static data.
it's a bit of a leap to then, turn
a web flow site into a web app, for
example, about, people log into and
see their own information, et cetera.
And again, lots of
flexibility, lots of styling.
It's a bit too much and a bit
overwhelming for a lot of articles.
That really just needs
something a bit simpler.
And then, yeah, when it comes to
web apps specifically, there's talk
forums, like bubble, that would be
very popular for people building MVPs,
for example, but again, huge amount
of flexibility, but also then a large
learning curve, and that is definitely
something that people struggle with.
Like they think that no code
might mean like no learning or.
No steep learning curve, et cetera.
So that's definitely something
that I'd say people struggle
with with quite a few platforms.
So coming back to our
loca then, because as.
The data is the foundation for your ops.
So once you have that connected,
whether you want to use what we call
no Loco collections, which is our
basically internal data storage and
upload your kind of CSV spreadsheet
data to there, or you want to
connect an existing Google sheets or.
And ultimately other data sources as well.
We definitely see ourselves
as like a backend.
I can also stick platforms.
so ultimately you will be able to
connect to many different databases,
data sources of software tools, et
cetera, um, that, you know, will
do a lot of the work for you then.
So we'll automatically build
your web hop around that data.
Which basically means that the user
gets up and running, ready to practice
and they can actually see they're up
in front of them almost straight away.
And then of course can
configure us to them.
Niall Maher: Yeah, that's,
it's so powerful as well.
I'm, I've been thinking of it
more so as well as the product
manager and me thinks about.
How would this, how I can just share
things with people in a nice way and
not just give a spreadsheet to people
and it make it look like smoke and
mirrors that I've done a ton of work for
a client or whatever else in a sense.
Is that where this came from or how
did this get conceived really in the
sense of where did you see the hole
that you're like, or maybe you've
pivoted since you've been in white?
I don't really know.
So what, what got you into this
mess in the beginning of it?
Simon Curran: No.
So, so we have definitely, um, so
we've been on our own journey for sure.
So let's say we probably pivoted
twice or three times along the way.
And you know what I'd say
to anyone starting off with.
The shots are whatever kind of
notion or idea you have in your head.
See know the chances are, you're
going to have to change direction a
couple of times before you really,
get towards product market fit.
As we actually started out as a much more
flexible tool, and it comes back to what I
was chatting there regarding flexibility.
So to build both websites on buy box.
It was very, very ambitious.
We internally referred to the
project as the Gul boats, the
greatest web app builder of old time.
And it certainly wasn't
thought in the end.
But as very ambitious project on, to
build both websites on web apps, so
different types of, applications, if
you like, and also just have a huge
amount of signing options, et cetera.
So we basically launched
that on product hunt.
About two weeks into the Y
Combinator, accelerator program.
And very quickly saw.
Okay.
We're just not getting
the engagement here.
Like people just aren't grasping the
learning curve and just too much,
so very quickly decided, right.
We need to change direction.
We're both pretty excited about.
Client portal Stan.
So that was the next phase was okay.
Well, strip it back.
We'll take away some of the kind of
flexibility, make it simpler, easier to
use and really focus on those, wanting to
those inclined facing businesses so they
could centralize their communications.
File-sharing messaging billing.
So that was the next thesis.
And what we kind of learned then was
that, it was still seen as somewhat
of a nice have perhaps versus using
just email and for communicating
with clients and that kind of thing.
What we, one of the best insights
we got from that really was that
while people were fundamentally
trying to do is share data.
They want to share data either internally
or externally with their partners.
So he basically revamped the
product to essentially focused
purely on that side of things.
And it, broadened the scope
and like the types customers
thought we'd attract as well.
So since we launched that towards
the end of last year, probably
November, December, last year,
we sold out take off really well.
I've been growing really quickly
since then kind of hitting
consistently hitting our growth
targets as well, which is great.
And so, yeah, we were
definitely on our own journey.
It's, took some time.
kind of dark moments, but you know, tough
times as well over the past year, since
we went full time, when things weren't
working, I, and it is quite difficult
in those periods, but I'm very happy
now on the path for on, and things are
definitely heading in the right direction.
Niall Maher: I love the fact.
You talk about the dark moments,
because I think a lot of times from
the outside people just see, oh,
this person's doing really well.
They must really have their shit together.
There's no problems.
They're just, they just have it.
And I think more people
should be open to share.
That it's not all playing an easy
and it's okay to fail lots of times.
And it's, it's the only way to improve is
to fail lots and lots and lots of times.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
totally.
And it was one of the things that
we did from the very beginning.
So I started doing kind of
finder updates on a weekly basis.
Now it's bi-weekly so it's,
it's a private mailing list, but
anyone really can sign up to us.
And yeah, we shared very transparently
that when things were going well, when
things weren't going well, Now, we'd
say applied to Y Combinator the first
time and didn't get in, the impact
that hot and there's lots of, bad
moments where you definitely have to
seek, the highs with the lows as well.
It definitely overall, despite any kind
of difficult moments overall, it's just
like an amazing experience, but yeah, it's
certainly not plain sailing every day.
That's for sure.
Niall Maher: You touched off it
there getting into Y Combinator
and not getting into Y Combinator.
I think most people don't get into Y
Combinator full-stop and it does not mean
you're not going to be successful either.
I know it's.
At the moment.
Anyway, it is the accelerator.
So anyone who gets in there and it
feels like it's like royalty, really?
I'd love to know what you could
share with us about the Y Combinator
experience and how that went and how
it helped you if it helped you at all.
I hope it did with all the, it would
all the, uh, stilts said about it.
So yeah.
What's your experience?
Simon Curran: Yeah, sure.
So we were very keen to apply
for Y Combinator, upstart, and
obviously, you know, it's great to
be going, you know, full-time and
something with some funding as well.
So Y Combinator gave 120.
$10,000, which is a pretty standard
kind of accelerator terms like us.
But we'd also known quite a
few different startups that
had gone through the program.
So some of our friends from here in
Ireland and my co-founder Darragh
worked at inscribe, a startup that went
through Y Combinator like 2018, I think.
Before working on Noloco.
So, you know, we're very much aware
of how great the program could be.
And we're pretty excited to apply.
We applied for a sign, didn't get
in, but at that stage, we had very
little, we had no traction, really.
It was hypothetically, we will
be getting customers soon.
They can see through that,
they interviewed tons of
startups every single day.
If you don't have really concrete
proof or validation, it's quite
unlikely, you'll get in, but we
managed to make significant progress.
By the next time we applied and managed
to get in and we revamped our pitch if
you like, made it more focused, et cetera.
And that definitely helped.
But yeah, the program itself was great.
We did fully remote.
I'm not sure if now the
program's always going to be
remote or I'm not actually sure.
It'll but it was remote, and we did it.
And so we're just doing it for.
Our homes here in Dublin and it worked
out fine in terms of time difference
than we do our standard work day.
And then there might be some workshops
and things in the evening, but yeah,
overall learnt a lot, I would say from,
the group partners and mentors, and
then also the other startups as well.
And I think the biggest
thing was probably.
The kind of mentality that came with
the startups and the accelerator that,
everyone, there has a certain ambition
to be world beaters, if you like to
try to become a billion dollar company.
So being in that kind of environment
and setting those very ambitious
targets in terms of growth, et cetera,
that's probably not something that we
would have necessarily got elsewhere.
So I think that was probably
the biggest thing for me.
Niall Maher: Obviously being
in that environment is huge.
I often complain here in
Dublin, especially that people
aren't ambitious enough.
That's just my own ego that drives me
and what I want out of life as well.
So I love hearing that and meeting
really ambitious people and people
who I just got world beaters.
It's it's very interesting, but is there
any, technical advice or something that.
Set off fireworks for you when you
heard during the course that really
changed how you think about business
or was there any moments like that?
I'm sure there was
several over the months.
Simon Curran: Yeah, it's funny.
So what I say is that we obviously,
pivoted very early on in the batch,
and then you're looking into your,
mentors, like you're assigned basically
different group partners who are
looking after maybe about 70 companies
between, around three of them or so
that are in your kind of group, if
you'd like, and do you know, be trying
to get like their advice and things.
Really, it does come down to
your yourselves ultimately.
You have to be the ones that are
proactive and trying to move things.
Foraging guests hold the advice in
the world and there's never going
to be that kind of silver bullet
advice that you're looking for.
That'll solve all of your problems.
But yeah, it's probably
the main thing was slabs.
We managed to iterate pretty quickly.
And, from probably the second week
in June, we decided to shut down our
first thing that, I think is near the
end of July, then we had our second
one I had, which meant by the kind of
end of the program And the demo day,
we had at least some kind of traction
which, it would have been bad of we not.
But yeah, it's hard to pinpoint
specific things, but overall
definitely great learnings.
Niall Maher: It must have been
terrifying to just shut something down
as well at the start of this really?
What was the process there?
Did you just turn it off or
Simon Curran: Yeah.
So we, I know, so it was basically our
first builder and then, my co-founder
Darragh, I worked on basically, a totally
separate kind of environment, if you
like, and spinning up, totally separate.
Build our application.
But we're running our own website
with our first, with our first
kind of product at the time.
So I can't remember exactly
when we shut it down and like
properly sunsetted it, but, we, we
definitely canceled our customer
subscriptions and that kind of thing.
Whichever, however many we had at the
time we, we definitely like cons to them.
And I think, we were both probably
quite relieved as definitely
maybe a hard decision at the time.
You know yourself when it just
doesn't look like it's working.
And there's a certain, I guess,
battle between the thing I'll maybe
just have to be persistent and
stay on it, or it's like, this
is fundamentally just not working.
And I think there's probably a
lot of finders out there who are,
are avoiding making about decision
and thinking like, maybe I just
need to stick out this longer.
Whereas in reality, maybe you.
should be doing something more productive
or trying to change it up with this.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
And that's, that's a really
interesting way of putting it as well,
because I think I've seen a lot of.
I suppose just distracted by a
very few customers and they're
like, oh, I got some customers, so
therefore I can get more customers.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
Niall Maher: Did you, have targets
or something you put in place to
just say, Hey, if we don't hit these
benchmarks, we know it's not good enough.
Or did you just look at the
data as a came and said, look,
we have to make a decision.
Simon Curran: Yeah,
it's really interesting.
So I think the first time for our
first product and when we launched
that on product lines, I was kind
of looking everyday at like the
signups that we got from it then.
Okay.
How many of these actually like
built something on like how many of
them interact in a meaningful way?
So there definitely was a quantitative
aspect thought there when I was like,
okay, three out of 75 people engaged
in a meaningful way with the platform.
Like that's not great or
know something like that.
So there was quantitative
aspect, but while I would say
is really in the very early.
You could very much over optimize
for like metrics on like putting
in place analytics tools, all that.
Whereas really it comes down to intuition,
it's like, is this working or not?
Like, it's, it's fairly black and white.
Whether, it's working to any
extent now I think it probably
gets a little bit harder.
As you say, if you have a little
bit of success, then it starts
to get a little bit harder.
And I would say for our, the second
kind of pivot, then we did start
to get some customers and now.
We retained pretty much all of those
customers as well for when we revamped
the product and other time, because
fundamentally, it still worked for them.
Basically.
It was more of a change in approach
rather than changing the emphasis
in terms of, the overall builder,
rather than those specific client
centric modules, if you like.
But yeah, definitely would be difficult
when you got to stage maybe, making
a couple of hundred dollars a month
or a couple of thousand dollars a
month to okay, this is it, but is
there, is there a path to actually,
growing that month on month?
Very significantly.
So I think that's the
hardest space for sure.
That's harder decision to make.
Niall Maher: that's tough pill to
swallow as well, but being able to
say well, we have to go back to
zero to reduce the friction longterm?
Yeah, that's difficult.
I don't know many people
that have done that.
So more power to you because that is
it's it's just counterintuitive to a
lot of people, they see money and they
want to just stack on top of that money.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
Niall Maher: That's a great mindset
you've got because greed would
probably get in the way of most
people when making decisions.
What was the biggest learning curve for
you then going from product management to
being a founder now and being responsible
for making all the money yourself,
but not spending other people's money.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
Yeah, so definitely, a big
learning curve, I would say.
I'm the main thing I was, I guess the
non-technical co-founder or I guess the,
CEO type co-founders you're definitely.
Lots of things in different areas
that you probably never done before.
So I'd never necessarily
done sales before.
Fundraising of course never did thought
before now, spending a fair bit of my
time on hiring and then you're also doing
lots of admin, kind of self-imposed like
the financial and legal side as well.
So there is a whole bucket of stuff there
that, as a product manager, I basically
would have pretty much never done.
What's funny then is
that they, despite being.
Trained as a product
manager, if you'd like.
Very little, my work besides kind of
customer support would be on the product
side, so I'm lucky that my co-founder
Dar is very, very strong on in terms
of product, great kind of product sense
and really good design skills as well.
Whereas, maybe not all engineers
would have to kind of skills he
has, so I can almost step away
from that side a little bit.
But Yeah.
I'd say as lots in both sales And
fundraising, I would say would
be the, probably two biggest sun,
arguably the most important areas
as well that have upscaling.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
Are you doing any courses or anything
at the moment to try and fill some
of those voids or, cause I like, I
stacked on some of Udemy courses on
like startup law and stuff like that
because I was, I didn't have any idea.
So I, here I'm here always
adding things to my Udemy.
Simon Curran: Yeah, it's so funny.
Yes.
The other day, I basically got an online
course and new to me, myself as well
around that like paid ads, for example I
started startups and, it's very difficult
to make time to come back to these things.
I was like going to have to
specifically put in my calendar, but
then, other things take priority.
So it's definitely stuff like that.
And I think that is a challenge as well.
They always say, as a startup founder,
you should only hire in roles that
you've specifically done yourself.
The sales side, for example, them where
we've just hired a solutions engineer,
who's joining us in random week or so now.
And we're really excited to have
them come on board, but fortunately,
allows the work that we anticipate.
There'll be.
I have been doing myself whether it's
like sales, onboarding, customer demo
support, helping build ops, whatever it's
stuff that I've very much been doing.
That is something that I have to
very actively think about then and
say, we're looking at performance
marketing or something in the future.
It's an area like I don't
necessarily know about it.
So ideally, I'll upskill to
a certain level that I at
least will be able to gauge.
Okay, is this person really good, or are
they just, talking very basic stuff that.
Like rocket science to me
because I know nothing.
But Yeah.
it is.
It's hard to make time for some of
those courses and things, for sure.
Niall Maher: That is a real, it's
a constant it's a constant game of
not getting blinded by bullshit.
Isn't it like you're especially
in hiring in different areas.
I don't envy you having
to jump around that.
It's a lot of mental gymnastics.
Simon Curran: The hiring side, it's
been pretty fun so far and you know,
the people we've got on onboard.
So we have that two engineers
join us in February, so Matt and
Niall, and they've been great.
They're really experienced guys just
when I'd hit the ground running.
So we were super, super
fortunate with them.
My guess, you know, both
Darragh my co-founder and myself
like Darragh is an engineer.
So obviously is very comfortable in that.
I was PM.
So, you know, it's working with engineers
for several years before Noloco so it's
very much kind of our comfort zone, I
would say on, you know fundamentally,
what's an engineer's role is, so yeah
it's, it'll be more interesting in future
when we or more challenging, I should say
when we expand that to different roles
that we've never necessarily done before.
Niall Maher: Yeah, and
you're hiring right now.
You said to me before the call,
Simon Curran: Yeah, that's a word looking
for software engineers at the moment we're
actively interviewing right now, but know
the application is still very much open.
So if anyone is less than this or
knows anyone who might be who might
be interested in working out a high
road startup with a whole lot of
autonomy and really interesting
engineering challenge as well.
I, mean, particularly for engineers,
platform like no Loco to help people
build web apps without code is.
It's certainly ambitious.
It's certainly challenging.
So I think quite an exciting opportunity
for someone to come in in the early
days on help shape, the platform.
And I'm really excited to see where
it goes in the coming years as well.
But yeah definitely interesting
opportunity from my bias perspective.
Anyway.
Niall Maher: Myself as a nerd, because
might be jibberish to some people that
are listening that are not technical, but
like the tech stack you have on there.
Node react, graph, QL,
Postgres, Mongo, DB.
It's all stuff that
developers like to use.
So it's not like you have the
painful technical debt that
you would be used to going.
If you go enjoy most.
Simon Curran: My co-founder definitely
made the good school kind of architecture
decisions in the early days and yeah.
You know, um, I can't say I
know much about the whole area.
I think I did a code academy intensive
course back in 2017 or something,
trying to learn a bit of code, but
yeah, besides kind of SQL and stuff,
public kind of coding side would
be a bit beyond me at the moment.
Niall Maher: Ah, it's not a skill you
need right now when you have great
people around it, all which is the.
And I think a lot of people tend
to try and do everything and it's
just not the best use of anyone's.
Simon Curran: no, definitely not.
And I think, if I could code as well, I
was just thinking that to see the day that
like, I'd probably get so swept up in.
Fixing bugs or like doing, little
improvements, things that, you could
easily leave the whole business side
of it, and just like the too kind
of in the weeds and the products.
Yeah.
I think it definitely makes sense
to have kind of complimentary
skills amongst your co-founders.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
I love that because I see myself
in that statement because I lose
days and weeks when I'm like, I can
solve this myself and then I just
put my head down and then I forgot.
I haven't talked to anyone
in a couple of weeks ago.
Oh yeah.
There's other people here.
So yeah, it's not ideal when you're
going to be , driving the ship forward
and you you've just been hiding.
Simon Curran: Yeah, no, definitely.
That would be a trap on site, but
I think a lot of the, it's probably
rare, I guess we'd see like fully
technical co-founder teams these days.
Obviously, if you have someone that
could wear many parts and they have
those skills well, it's awesome.
But yeah, it's probably quite right.
Niall Maher: Excellent.
Do you have any advice that you
think would be counterintuitive for
especially from the product management,
I always think a lot of people
don't have that product skills on.
I'm sure you have some great advice.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
One thing things came to mind, maybe I can
pull up something on the product side in
the next few minutes, but it's probably
most around the kind of sales and growth.
So I think particularly in
the early days and the growth
for a startup is everything.
And you can be chasing sales And
getting sales to just obviously huge.
But in the early days, You can accept
or, take on customers that actually
don't make sense for you, that, you
find yourself bending over backwards
to serve a customer that maybe is
only paying you 50 quid a month.
They something, and really, it's more of a
distraction on maybe they're not great to
work with and you're just not enjoying it.
And it's not really moving the product
or anything in the right direction.
So now counter-intuitively say.
That to be disciplined the day of
what kind of deals you accept and
like the customers you take on in
the early days, because they can
bring you in the wrong direction.
And that's very, very easy to happen.
And I guess that's linked to the
product side as well, then, you
know, even the features and what
we're looking at now, in terms of
some of the things we could build.
We could easily go there and more kind
of enterprise and maybe internal tooling
route with, for example, the next
database integration we're going to build.
It's like a Postgres database integration
with our platform which will open up
new doors for us, but very alternative.
We could build that more like in-app
payments, for example, which would
be much more appealing to like
startups in a bigger company would
have absolutely no use for it.
So now the product side, then, know, you
really have to think about, which types
customer is this going to resonate with?
Yeah.
Overall, what kind of
direction do you want to go in?
Niall Maher: And do you have any
philosophies that you're using or
systems you're using to figure out what
are the things to build now, since you
are just making those decisions saying
maybe we'll target startups rather
than enterprise, what frameworks or
tools do you use to help you make that?
Simon Curran: Yeah.
So what it's at the moment is thought
we aren't using any particular framework
and things right now, we try in the
future where we probably will adopt
some kind of more rigorous process
around these kinds of things at the
moment had very much as a balance
between what are some of the things
our existing customers are asking for?
What are the things that we think
ourselves we would like to get done?
So we have.
Basically a high-level roadmap that we
made at the start of the year, and these
are some things we would like to get done.
And then it's just that challenge
between, the everyday kind of
little improvements on fixes and
things that your existing customers.
And also trying to carve out the time
and resources to make sure you're making
headway towards a bigger improvements
that ultimately, could open new
doors, new channels and new types of
customers and a lot more business.
So that's definitely a balance between
trying to, you know, especially with a
platform like ours, where our customers
could be trying to pull us in a million
different directions on launch little
niggly kind of improvements to feature X.
Maybe it's just a very specific kind
of particular user experience thing.
And so that's definitely a challenge.
But yeah, at the moment, we
certainly record whenever a customer
prospect requests, a particular
feature that does help prioritize
the kind of more day stay stuff.
Niall Maher: Nice.
Yeah.
So I guess it's always listening
to the market early on as well.
There's nothing else you can do.
It's the only thing you can do.
I'm gonna take a few guesses along
the way and hope they work out.
Simon Curran: Yeah, exactly.
And I think, there is the whole kind
of build and they will come and,
obviously you'd want to avoid that
as much as possible and hopefully,
validate things in advance.
But yeah, you do sometimes
need to make those leaps.
And I'm sure, there'd be many people.
Kind of be in favor of that side of
things, obviously, the whole lean startup
movement and everything is grace, and to
maybe encourage a bit more discipline in
the kind of product development process.
But yeah, sometimes you do have to
make some leaps along the way as well.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
As a, as an early stage founder,
you have to be scrappy as well.
Like you can't just wait
around for perfect either.
It's just not feasible at all.
When your, customers are
oxygen in the sense of keeping.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
And I think it's one thing.
So like, we definitely are trying to be as
customer centric as possible and really,
really responsive to our customers.
And that's something that, our customer
is particularly I pleased with, I would
say with our platform maybe versus some
other competitors in the space and that
quality of support is definitely something
that, you hear a lot of successful
companies from Amazon to, grab Morales
that kind of ignore obsession, I would
say, but, just trying to be responsive,
reactive, and always shipping as well.
So that product velocity is
super important for us and our
customers just love it, that, each
week we're bashing, et cetera.
Features and, some, like some will just
be smaller, so we'll be prior pleasers
that haven't necessarily been expected.
But yeah, that, between kind of customer
support and product philosophy as well.
It's there's just two of the
things we definitely Australia.
Niall Maher: And it is showing off
because the, everything from the site,
the app, everything, it looks gorgeous.
It's stunning.
It's amazing.
I taught you how to a big design team
and everything really when I looked at
it because it's, it's a beautiful app.
Like, and that's the app key can
be looking at us from the outside.
I'm like, Jesus, they put a lot of
work into making this look shit hot.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
And that is one things that I, again,
very fortunate with my co-founder
at Doris design chops, if you like.
But Yeah.
it is, I guess a I'd say
complaint or I don't know.
Feeling, I guess when you see some
no-code developed websites and web
apps that you know straight away,
it's like, ah, it doesn't look great.
You're like, it, doesn't not very sharp.
The design's been outdated.
It just doesn't look like what you'd
expect for some reason, nuts, definitely
something that, I'd like to think with
no local it's very kind of modern.
Very stylish in terms of the decide
split kind of default options that we
have when it comes to like layouts and
different kinds of components as well
that you can use to build your up.
Yeah, definitely, definitely does look
very good, which is funny, what's kind
of pleasing on the, I definitely kind of
track people and some people definitely
have chosen their Loco over other
competitors for that reason as well.
But yeah, certainly.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
I always tell people that if they can
go consumer level, when you're building
on your products, because it's the same
as eating, if it looks good, we want it.
You can, and you can hide a lot of nasty
shit that's going on behind the scenes.
If it looks pretty,
Simon Curran: And it's so funny as well.
Yeah, because you know, we very often
see when we, so we have like a slack
community for our customers on having
slack communities, grace, and people, and
slack is actually a really good example.
A B2B tool that has,
consumer level experience.
But it's so funny that whenever.
You know, We launched some kind
of UI improvement or like a
nice new component or something.
Those are the ones people go mad for,
like it'll be something that's relatively
simple that my co-founder is oh, okay.
Like it did that up.
And now a couple of hours, it's something
like a new kind of like pipeline element,
for example, to help monitor what
stage or status a particular record is
in, and people just come up for that.
kind of thing.
So, um, yeah, it is, it is funny.
The I guess the more visual something is
maybe the more pleasing and it can be.
Niall Maher: Yeah.
I look at my background
before I went full stack.
I was a UI developer and a web
designer and things like that.
So I nerd out on designs too much.
So I would be absolutely one of
those people that just this other
I'm not using this other one
because this looks nicer, that's it?
So that would win me over.
So I think it's work to work on the
effort and it's clearly paying off now.
Simon Curran: Yeah, yeah.
I agree.
Niall Maher: I think I probably
annoyed you enough, but I'd love to
get a couple more bits out of you.
And I always ask all my guests this.
What is your.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
So let's say, uh, my favorite book
would probably be creativity, Inc.
And I'm not sure if you've read it.
It is the book written by, uh, Ed Catmull.
So like one of the original
co-founders of a Pixar animation
that was then obviously acquired
by Disney and yeah, it's a spiral.
How they, their journey with Pixar really,
and talks through all the kind of classic
animations from, when they were developing
toy story as the first automated computer
automated full movie to, a lot of their
kind of challenges along the way in terms
of sustaining a culture of innovation
that kind of, creating that sense of, I
guess, psychological safety and fostering
an environment of creativity within, Pixa
definitely a very, very interesting book.
I kind of re-read it relatively recently.
Niall Maher: Nice.
I'm going to put out.
I haven't read it.
The only insight I have to pixar
is that is reading Steve jobs book.
So, yeah, I'll definitely put down
on the list because Pixar is awesome.
I grew up, my favorite
toy was Woody growing up.
So,
Simon Curran: Oh, nice.
Yeah,
I
loved it.
And it's funny.
I've been cause that what Steve
jobs, because he was basically
yeah, you'd probably know the
story, but he, he basically, I
think owned a very large proportion
of Pixar before itself to Disney.
If not, most like probably the full thing.
And yeah, one things I think he'd
said to the co-founders was, even
comparing it to like apple, for example,
he knew that, a lot of the apples.
Despite how amazing they are that
ultimately end up in a landfill.
Whereas, what takes our was creating
with their automation on made movies
was timeless, like they'll last forever.
So yeah, I think he definitely respected
what they were doing there for sure.
Niall Maher: Yeah, I think he spent
most of his personal money on nearly
all of it that he got out of apple on.
And I think when Pixar sold, he made more
than he did on apple as well for that,
because he owned so much at that company.
So it's crazy.
I think a lot of people don't even
know that he was heavily involved
in Pixar having involved financially
anyway, I don't know if he he did the
usual Steve jobs, attitude of going in
and telling people to do it his way.
I think that was the one that,
of only things he stepped back
and said, I don't understand.
Simon Curran: I think
that's exactly, actually.
Yeah, I think so.
That's apparently how it went.
And apparently though he did give a
very useful insight, some comments
and things when like reviewing movies
and all that, but like from a kind of
respectful, far away standpoint to that,
but yeah, that's a really great book.
I would recommend reading that
Niall Maher: Yeah, I'm definitely going
know that's going to be added to my list.
I'm surrounded.
I have books everywhere.
There's in my kitchen and my
sitting room bookshelf behind me.
I, I have to have.
Reading books and buying books.
Uh, so buying books definitely is
more than my reading habit, for sure.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
I do feel like, yeah, whenever you're in
a bookshop, you're kind of just greedy
for that knowledge and information.
Just, they're very enticing for somebody
who's probably like looking up to sea
on a warm day, you know, you just kind
of want to want to get stuck into it.
But
Niall Maher: yeah,
Simon Curran: yeah.
Niall Maher: not enough
time too many books.
It's great.
Obviously Noloco is the best piece
of software ever, but what is another
piece of software that you're using
every day that you'd be lost, whatever.
Simon Curran: Yeah.
So I'd say probably the one tool that
comes to mind is actually loom as I'm
sure you've probably used it before and I
have them, but we just find it so helpless
that basically allows you to really,
really easily record like screen recorded.
I record your screen, basically.
So particularly when it comes to, you
know, product and maybe investigating
customer issues or trying to reproduce
something and showing it to the
team, et cetera, it's just so useful.
And it's funny, just one of these products
that made what seems like an obvious
leap before, I guess you'd record a
video using QuickTime or some desktop
app basically, and then you'd have to
download it and then maybe upload it to
YouTube or something that would take.
I easily eat up, at least maybe 10
minutes or 20 minutes or whatever.
imagine time of your day.
Whereas Liam just throws it all
in kind of one go then makes
it accessible by the browser.
So anyone can go out the link and
watch the video of just recorded.
So, yeah, that's been brilliant.
And we use that.
Yeah, definitely pretty much every day.
Niall Maher: That's such a good
tool for remote working as well,
because I used that way, offshore
designers, a lot of the time.
So for someone who thinks.
For just articles and whatever else.
And I usually have designers involved
and I just love using loom because
I can write like a paragraph of what
I want and then just turn on loom
and go to like dribble and say, I
want something kind of like this.
I like this part.
I like this part.
I don't like this.
And it's something I just could not
explain by typing to somebody anyway.
So I used that for just
clarity on what I'm excited.
Simon Curran: Yeah, no,
it's it's brilliant.
And, between a free producing things
and like bugs and that kind of
thing, but also in the early days,
I remember I definitely would have.
If maybe I helped build an app for
a prospective customer or something,
I'll definitely just record quickly,
but super personalized then,
you're saying like, Hey, here I
am, I've just built this for you.
You know, it's amazing
customer service then as well.
So yeah, no, it's a brilliant tool again.
What I kind of love about it.
It's so simple.
Like it's just a really,
really simple thing.
It's not overly complicated in any way
and yeah, just verify your product.
Niall Maher: Love it.
So where can people find you in the wild?
Where should they follow you?
Where are you most?
Simon Curran: Yeah, sure.
So, um, well in terms of Noloco,
so our website is no loco.io and
on Twitter and LinkedIn where
asked no Loco HQ is, are handled.
Personally, you can find me.
I'm Simon Alix, Curran on
Twitter and LinkedIn as well.
And I'd be most doctors probably
on LinkedIn, myself personally.
I'm not as active on Twitter.
I'd love to be one of these
people that just keeps all these
profiles up to date and things all
the time and posting every day.
But I find that I'm not, unfortunately,
and I'm at this point, but.
Meaning meaning to do more.
Cause I think it actually is probably
very helpful when a founder is
promoting their business, A loss
and their kind of personal profiles.
And yeah, as mentioned,
we are hiring as well.
So from our website, you can see that
some of the open job roles and positions
on specifically looking for a software
engineers at the moment as well.
Niall Maher: A little bit.
Yeah, I definitely think you should
be everywhere because seven, your.
Your passion and energy about what
you're doing and everything else just
comes true when you're talking to you.
People kind of see, I see you obviously
in the podcast, but I'm looking at you.
We're not just weirdly having a phone
call here for the illusion at home.
So yeah, if you can get out there, I
think you'll easily boost the business
as well because people buy from.
Simon Curran: that's it?
Yeah, no, it's a hundred percent true.
About to people buying from.
people, stuff.
Definitely something that
I've learned in sales as well.
Yeah.
If you can get on a call and sometimes
people even are very impressed when I turn
up on a call with them, they're like, wow.
I would like the
co-founder of the business.
They probably have no idea that we're,
a four person company right now.
But yeah, it definitely, definitely
is true that people buy from people.
Niall Maher: And not to
go on too much of a time.
One of the funniest things
on what really made.
Figured out the easy way was I used
to, when I was wondering you, I was a
software consultancy for fun on Fridays.
I used to get drunk and bill
stuff on a LinkedIn stream.
And so many people got in touch with me.
They were like, Hey, if you could do
this drunk, you must be really good
sober and they would come along and
I got a lot of business that way.
It was bizarre because they were just
like, yo, you're not hiding anything.
I like that.
Let's let's do business.
Simon Curran: That's very cool.
Niall Maher: I thought it was like
LinkedIn suicide to be doing that, but
again, that's just what I talked about.
Right Simon, it was great to chat
to you and hopefully we'll see no
local, even more in the future.
It's booming.
We'll have lots of new
developers and everything else.
And, uh, maybe we'll check
in again in the future.
We found out before the call as
well that we're nearly neighbors.
So I'll definitely be talking to
you out in the real wild as well.
Simon Curran: Yeah, a hundred percent
and really appreciate you having
me on the podcast Niall and yeah.
Thanks.
thanks a million.
That's great.
A great fun.
Niall: If you enjoyed this episode,
I have a little favorite ask.
If you could leave the podcast a kind
review, it would really help the show out.
It appeases the algorithm gods
and helps me reach new people.
So I really appreciate it.
And until next time, my beautiful friends.
Keep learning and keep growing.