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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown, the podcast where pastor and author, Matt Brown, debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening, and enjoy the show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, hey everybody and welcome to another episode of The Debrief. I'm super excited to have, I don't know if I call you my friend.
Marc Cameron:You can.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can? Okay. My friend that I pay to talk to, Mark Cameron, who is, was my therapist for almost 2 years and helped keep Tammy and I in ministry, helped make our marriage better, and helped me through a really, really tough time. I would say midlife crisis, but I'm older than midlife, so we could
Marc Cameron:say Top third of your life crisis.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Close to death. Yeah. So welcome everybody. Marc Cameron, just such a a treat to meet you. So I gotta tell you I'm a little disappointed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So we went to you intentionally to be so far away and I found out you live
Marc Cameron:in the in the Empire. I do. I do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I didn't know that. I thought you were Orange County hoity toity and turns out you're living in poverty.
Marc Cameron:I live in the promised land of Riverside County. That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So man, I'm so glad you're here. So I'm gonna ask you a counseling trivia question. Do you know where the term shrink comes from?
Marc Cameron:I do not. Okay do
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you guys know? So it comes from the idea of a shrink, like a medicine doctor that shrinks skulls, and so psychiatry kinda had a bad name at first and so to shrink your problems in your mind and so it's those literally those doctors in Polynesia that shrink the heads, you know? And so that's where it comes from. So it's a derogatory term so but you're my shrink. And so hopefully you've not made my head smaller, but my problems smaller.
Marc Cameron:Right. I didn't learn to shrink heads so
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. I
Marc Cameron:miss that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I do every week with my preaching. I make brains smaller every week with my communication skills. Alright. Well, welcome. So glad you're here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My wife is super nervous because we can just talk about how I was super healthy and she needed Jesus and Mark can share everybody what way he can't do that. But alright, so the first question is how do we meet? But we met in therapy and actually you were recommended to me by Saddleback Church and so that's where I got Actually, I think your boss recommended you to us. And so, how do you say his last name? Milan?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Milan Jurkovich. Yeah. There you go. So, great, great book called
Marc Cameron:How We Love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Fantastic book. It really, really helped me, challenged me. I felt great with my wife when I when she read through it, she felt worse at first. Like it just kind of brought up a lot of her painful experiences from childhood. For me, it was kind of like, oh, it makes sense why I'm so tweaked, but fantastic, fantastic book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So you can tell us a little bit about yourself and your background.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I live in Riverside County, as you said. Yes. Work in Orange County.
Marc Cameron:I have been married for 12 years this year. Mhmm. We're a blended family. 2 kids. Both of them 18, 3 months apart.
Marc Cameron:Wow. Graduated high school last year, so we are going into the empty nesses phase.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Maybe you can come to me for counseling. Yes. Yeah. I'll tell you what, it's different. You gotta you gotta discover each other and and so much of life is about the kids and, you know, I would say taxi, but everyone says Uber now, you feel like you've turned into Uber driver and so you have to find yourself, but it was a real shift more so for my wife than for me because so much of her identity was wrapped up in the kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Maybe more of my identity should have been wrapped up, don't try to psych grieving the loss of what was. And so it was, it was a different a different point.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. It's a it's a life transition when you go through that stage and so, yeah, there's there's some loss, but then, you know, there's some gain. Yeah. That happens too.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. So at least for you guys, though, you're gonna lose both at the same time. So we kinda went one at a time.
Marc Cameron:Right. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's gonna
Marc Cameron:be Well, we've done everything at the same time, so, yeah, it's been interesting. So let me
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:give you some common questions about therapy because you know in the church, we're just told to pray about it, go to God with it, let go, let God, all the little phrases that we say that maybe aren't theologically wrong but are not helpful when it comes to working through problems. So here's some common questions about therapy. Why would I speak to a therapist instead of a friend? Like, I know my answer, but what's your answer? You're a therapist.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. I I mean, I think you'd speak to a therapist. I mean, the obvious is somebody is trained and they're, you know, they're professional. But I think you'll get more objectivity. Sometimes when you get to a friend, you tell them your side of the story.
Marc Cameron:They know you. They don't wanna disappoint you, so they just say, yeah. You're right. Yes. And they affirm everything that you're saying, and then you think you're right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:But when you get to a therapist, they're you know, you're paying them to be objective. And so they hear you out. They do empathize and validate your feelings, but they can also direct you, and and help pinpoint, you know, some things that they see in your life that you can grow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. One of the things that I tell people about, you know, because we've recommended several friends to see you and I know I'm not allowed to out them on the show. But one of my friends who's a pastor was saying, why Mark? And I said, he's sneaky with his punches. So I don't know if you know what I mean by that, but you're really good at confronting in a way that I feel like you you, you caught me off guard, but it's still because a good therapist to me knows how to confront the problem, but you're just like almost like a boxer.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, it's a very, very calculated non offensive, but still it's like, okay. He was challenging me on that. And it was you were so good in the way that you did that. And I know my wife would constantly talk about, you know, Mark's so good in the way that he confronts something that I need to see. And so I don't know if anybody's ever told you that, but you're just really, really good at presenting maybe a painful truth in a very, very comfortable way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I feel like you have that gift
Marc Cameron:Someone just told me that yesterday. So it's so funny that you said that because I use almost the exact words. Yeah. So you're not hearing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Part of it's cheating because your British accent. Like, it makes everything sound like, as an American, we all sound like Trump, you know, just offensive. But with you, it just feels like, oh, it's not that offensive because, you know, he had tea and, you know, we're talking no. But it's a very, very interesting gift and it's not something that I've ever experienced until really sitting under, you know, your practice and appreciating that. And anyways, I'm very, very thankful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, so why or how do I know when I need to see a therapist? So I've gone to church, I've asked for prayer. We have Soul Care at Sandals Church. And let me say to all of our listeners, I say this to our pastors all the time and I don't know that they believe me. But I say you're not a therapist.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Stop acting like a therapist. And so I feel like sometimes as pastors we get a little full of ourselves and it's like, look man, you're over your skis here, buddy. Like, this is this is a problem. We could pray into this, we could counsel, but I I just, a lot of times, feel like people need therapy. So when when do I know I need to see?
Marc Cameron:Yeah. That's that's interesting because we as a therapist, you are trained in a different say the whole situation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But they
Marc Cameron:told me the situation, I said, you need to leave. Yeah. It was abusive. It was dangerous. And they said to me, well, why didn't this other person tell me to do that?
Marc Cameron:I said, I don't know. Yeah. This is dangerous. Mhmm. And so I I think yeah.
Marc Cameron:Coming to see a therapist I mean, obviously the obvious is if you are stuck. Right. You know? That's when most people come to see a therapist. They they they need to work through something.
Marc Cameron:But I think therapy's healthy. And so I think at some point in your life, everybody should go see a therapist and just kinda talk things out to make sense to process through, you'll feel better.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So we just did this series called, healthy, and so it was physical health, emotional health, and spiritual health. And, when we came, to you, you know, you have the what's the pillow? The feelings pillow? What do you call it?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. You have a name for it. What's it called?
Marc Cameron:Well, we use something called soul words. That's our list.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. But the pillow, the feelings pillow. Well, I tried to order that and it didn't come. But what came is a mood meter. And so it's very, very similar.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, but I preached and when I pulled out the mood meter, our church just loved it and it was just hilarious. And what I talked about is I had a golf cart and it's a large golf cart, but it has a front seat, a middle seat and a back seat. And I talked about our emotions and, you know, for my wife, Tammy, her emotions tend to be in the driver's seat, which, you know, I find intimidating. But what I told our church is my emotions are in the trunk. And and what what I learned through therapy was both are driving.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just aware of my wife's because they're in the front seat, but I had emotions in the back seat and I tend to be that guy that's and what I told our churches where we want them is in the middle seat. We don't want them driving and we don't want them buried in the trunk. We wanna be aware of them as we drive, but not in control and not suppressed. And one of the things that you really helped me to do was to talk about my feelings through disappointment and really gave me permission. Because as a pastor, I can feel like, well, I'm following God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm leading people. I should I should be able to navigate this myself. And I think what you helped me do was you helped me to better navigate things myself. And so that was your gifting, asking great questions. But the feelings pillow, the feelings wheel, I you you had a name for it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't remember it. But, I remember one time Tammy had got in a fight after about 6 months with you, and she's like, we suck at the feelings chart. And I'm like, yeah. That's why that's why that's why we're there, Because it's hard to express what you feel when emotions are high. Like, right now, you and I are all chill, but we're not married.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're not fighting. We're not upset. We don't have a major issue to work through. But when the emotions were high, you know, Tammy, I would say, was completely clouded by them, but I was completely unaware of, and you helped me see a dismissive avoidant. And so I dismissed those, I'll be fine, and then avoid them and not know they're there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I have since being with you for 18 months, whenever I'm facing an issue, I ask myself this question, what am I dismissing? What am I avoiding in this relational conflict? And that's been so helpful for me. So next question, how do I know if I chose the right therapist? I'm interested for your answers because there's some wack therapists out there.
Marc Cameron:There are. I've heard some very interesting stories of people going to somebody for a while, and then their answer is, oh, get a divorce.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Marc Cameron:And I and I think that's probably just met with the limitations of that therapist. Yes. So I yeah. Interview your therapist. I think a good therapist will offer you some time to interview them.
Marc Cameron:I I generally do that. I Mhmm. Before I schedule an appointment with someone, I wanna make sure I'm the right person to help them too. So I have 15, 20, 25 minute phone call with that person. I understand, you know, what's their issue, why do they wanna come in, and then I share a little bit about me, what I'm gonna do, how I can help them.
Marc Cameron:And I think that's really I I see this, you know, for a successful therapy, I I think about it like a stool. There's, like, 3 legs to the stool. So you you need the right therapist because, therapeutic alliance is a term that we use. Right? The connection that you have with your therapist.
Marc Cameron:You need to be able to feel like you trust that person. And Mhmm. And like you said, they can speak to you in a way that will challenge you and that you can understand. So right therapist for you in that connection, but you also then need a good approach. Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:Because if you have somebody who takes you down the wrong way, well, they can be you know, you can like your guide, but if they're leading you down the wrong path, then that's not really gonna be helpful either. And then the third the third leg is, a commitment to therapy because you can have a great therapist who teaches you all the right things, but if it's not the right season for you, if you don't have that commitment to growth, it's not gonna be successful for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I would just say it's work. You know, you would give us homework every week and that's just such an important part of the therapy and, man, that's huge. Okay, so I would just say, I just ask for references. You know, I've given your name to a lot of people because Tammy and I have had, early on, we had a really terrible experience with a therapist and it was just a person who just wasn't very good at their job.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would say is there's bad pastors, there's bad police officers, there's bad therapists, and don't throw the baby out with the bath water, but make sure that, you know, you understand, okay, hey, this can be helpful and really, really find somebody that's an expert. And the thing is, like with you, like we had to work hard to get into your schedule because you are very, very competent and people enjoy your therapy. So it wasn't easy lining it up. And so when someone's like, yeah, I've got 40 hours open this weekend, like, okay, that makes me a little nervous.
Marc Cameron:It's kinda like going to a good restaurant. Right? If the line's out the door Yes. You're like, something good is happening in here. If it's empty on a Saturday night prime time, you're like, why does no one know about this place?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Alright. Last question. This is huge. How do I keep making progress in therapy? Because some people will just kinda get stuck.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:So it's the it's the growth. The growth happens under tension. Right? When you go to the gym, you have to push against something. If you if you go to the gym and you lift a 5 pound weight, well, you can lift that for half an hour.
Marc Cameron:It's not really gonna do too much for you. You have to push against something that, is challenging for you. Right? Once you once you get used to pushing against that weight, you you build up to the next weight. And so you actually have to do the work.
Marc Cameron:There's many people who come to therapy. Mhmm. And then, I want some peep so, what what happened this week? What did you learn? What insights did you have?
Marc Cameron:And they'll say this to me, I didn't you you know what? I was really busy. I didn't have enough time, but the kind of things that I'm teaching folks is it's not about time. It's just about the way that you use your time, so how you interact with people. And we you know, everybody knows.
Marc Cameron:Diet, exercise is gonna lead to, you know, health, physical health. How many people do that? They don't. So you actually have to do the the the hard work, the existential part. The difficult thing and it's an you know, the nature of growth is painful and uncomfortable.
Marc Cameron:You can't jump into a swimming pool and not get wet. Right. Because the nature of water is wet. Yeah. So nature of growth is painful and uncomfortable.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I don't know much about your background in terms of the way that you grew up, but I grew up in a very conservative Southern Baptist home. And I would say that my parents valued therapy, but I would say that they were an outlier in our denomination. Our denomination mostly would have said that is not biblical. There would have been a negative outlook towards therapy. And I remember talking to a family member recently and I said, I just really encourage you to go to therapy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she said to me, do you think I'm crazy? Like, so this is an older person, but their category of therapy is like, you know, this is for crazy people. And, you know, that's something that I've had to challenge in my own life is, look, there's some some emotional weights that I can't seem to carry or work through, so I need this. But where would you, where would you address that myth that that people who seek psychotherapy are weak, mentally ill, or crazy? Like, I recently just heard that crazy word.
Marc Cameron:Mhmm. No. I've heard that before and sometimes it's cultural too. And and and that's like, the cultural expectation that people who who need help, well, they just don't have it all together. But none of us have it all together.
Marc Cameron:I mean, as Christians, we need the Bible because we need Jesus because we don't have it all together. And so I love the term mental health because we all need health. We all need physical health, and and sometimes you need a checkup from the neck up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. Amen.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. As one of my good friends says. Yeah. And and it's it's health to do that. If we think that we can do everything ourselves, then, we're kidding ourselves.
Marc Cameron:We're fooling ourselves. And that's probably what you need to get the therapy for is to gain some insight because we all have blind spots.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, there was this one time in our therapy where you helped me see something that I did I had not seen before. You challenged me on the fact that I explain rather than apologize. And here's the thing is, I would have told that to everyone, but I couldn't see it in myself. So like if you I was sitting now with you and your wife, I would say Mark, you're explaining, you're not apologizing. But I was doing that and it was so helpful, you know, because for my wife, as we're engaged in an emotional struggle, I'm not my best listener when my my alerts are up, but with you, you just said, stop explaining.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I remember you said, are you sorry for what you did? And I said, yes. In in the middle of counseling, you said, well, tell her. And I was like, okay. And then didn't do it and you went, now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and so I was like, oh, I'm sorry. And then you said, you know, she she felt unloved about an issue we're having. You said, do you love her? Yes. And you were like, well, tell her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm like, okay. And then again, you're like, no. And, you know, it was like I had these training wheels, because we all revert to that, you know, childlike state where we're just not, like if it's somebody else's marriage, we give great advice, we have great perspective. But the closer the hurt is to my heart, the worse I am at navigating it. And you just helped me to see that and in a way was like, oh, I do love my wife and I am sorry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But even recognizing that, helping me to take the next step and act on it, which I would say is basic one on one level husbandry. But but in my brokenness, I was nodding my head but then didn't do it. And so you helped me take that next step, and I was
Marc Cameron:like, oh, that's Yeah. So it's learned to shift out that part of the brain because we have a reactive part of our brain called the amygdala. Yeah. And when that senses danger, it it shuts down our prefrontal cortex, which is our Yeah. Rational thinking brain, and we just react from that spot.
Marc Cameron:And so and we go into enemy mode Yes. Oftentimes. Right? We we defend, we blame, we attack. And it's learning just to kind of, pull back a bit and just take inventory and and, develop something called the observing self, which is the the part of us that that actively self reflects.
Marc Cameron:I often say this is that we you don't observe televisions, you watch televisions. Right? Right. It's a very passive action. But when it comes to self awareness, it needs to be an active, thing process that happens.
Marc Cameron:And so we need to be able to stop and say, what's happening right now? What am I feeling? Why is that going on? What am I doing? What am I reacting?
Marc Cameron:And take inventory and say, okay, let me put a word in. And that's why fee you know, learning about emotions are important because emotions drive behaviors. Mhmm. Seeking to get a corresponding need met. So if we feel misunderstood, we wanna be understood.
Marc Cameron:If we feel unheard, we wanna be heard, and we're gonna try we're gonna do an action to try and get that man. So, you know, someone might speak louder and yell because they feel unheard. And so learning what is happening in this moment, how can I put language to it and maybe even just request what I need rather than act it out?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. No. It was it was so good and I'm so grateful. Psychotherapists and clients become best friends, so I don't know what you guys meant by this question, but what do you think?
Marc Cameron:So that's a myth.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh. Myth
Marc Cameron:people believe that they're gonna become my best friend.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I didn't even know you live in corona, so I feel like I don't even know you. Who are you, Mark?
Marc Cameron:Are you British? You know, this is an accent. That's the strange thing about therapy because, you you know, in every other relationship where you where one person shares this deepness, this vulnerability, there's something called reciprocity that happens. Right? But therapy is very interesting because you, as a therapist, you're getting to know this other person.
Marc Cameron:And and as the client, you're sharing all of this vulnerable stuff. But sometimes you might not even know, like like what you're saying, basics, like where do you live, how many kids do you have. You don't know this basic stuff, and and you come for, you know, sometimes a year, 2 years, and it's all one way. And so it feels really strange. So so, of course, it does feel like you're close to that person and, like, they are your friend.
Marc Cameron:And as a therapist, it's interesting sometimes because some people you really connect with and you're like, I would really like to hang out
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:with this person,
Marc Cameron:but you can't
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Do that.
Marc Cameron:So, you know, we're human. We do connect better with, you know, with some people than others, but, yeah, it's an interesting dynamic.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I can't tell you how many times we left your office and I would look to Tammy and go, I don't know how he does that. Like, I would jump off a bridge if I had to listen to, like, I can even listen to our problems all day, much less, like, we're, like, your 5th or 6th couple for the day. And I I'm amazed at how you do that because, I just, I don't have that gift. I'm not very good at counseling at Sandals Church, they've banished me from doing it years ago, but I'm just very grateful that you have that gift.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And for me, I tend to like people to like, what I want them to like me. And so I had to, when I came to see you, I had to just constantly go, okay, I'm not here to win Mark's approval. I'm here for Mark to help me. And so that means I have to be honest about some some warts on my soul. And so I I had to check myself constantly because, and with our marriage, my wife's fear is that I'm gonna win people over with my personality.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so then she feels unheard. So I have her feeling like she's gonna get overshadowed by my personality. And then I have to, you know, I can't convince the cancer doctor I don't have cancer. That's because that's because ultimately that kills me. So, because you are a very likable person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, okay. Psychotherapy, can it solve problems in 1 or 2 sessions? I could answer this, but I'm
Marc Cameron:Right. Yeah. No. Of course, it can't. I mean, transformation takes place over a period of time.
Marc Cameron:Right? It takes insights. It takes, breakthroughs to happen, but it's neural pathway building.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Marc Cameron:And you have to do something over and over again to cement a new neural pathway. So there if someone's telling you that you'll be fixed in 5 sessions, It's not true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Alright. Couple talking points.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Stigma and shame. How can you help, our audience? Because I imagine there's some, even though our vision at Centrel's Church is being real with ourselves, God and others, that's a very difficult vision to live out. There's a lot of people. We did confession this week, and what I say at Sandals is if you wanna get real if you wanna heal, you gotta get real because it's just this block for most people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we had people come up and, I heard one confession, A woman came up to a female minister in our church and she said this, I was committed to carrying this sin to my grave. And I just thought, wow, what a breakthrough. And I don't know what it's for if you're that person that said that they didn't share with me what the sin was, but just how powerful that is because man, what I would say is that's gonna lead to an early grave if you're carrying something so dark and and to be able to confess that and share that. But why do you think Christians where confession is should be a central part of our life? I think about James 5 16, confess your sins one to another so that you may be whole and healed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the half brother of Jesus there. Why why do we struggle, like, saying, okay, my life is not what I want it to be, You know?
Marc Cameron:Well, shame shame makes us wanna run hide. Yeah. It's it's from the beginning. The Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, when they hid and ashamed Yeah. And they went and they hit.
Marc Cameron:And and so it's been like that from the start. Now the difference between guilt and shame is guilt is has to do with actions. Like, I did something wrong. Shame has to do with personhood. Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:There's something wrong with me. And we all struggle with shame somehow. Sometimes people think somebody who's shame shameful is, like, this insecure person, and they're not very confident, but that's not true. Sometimes shame is covert. You know, we live in Southern California.
Marc Cameron:There's times I go walk on the beach, and there's somebody, you know, trying to get that perfect shot for their Instagram, like, they're in their bikini. And and that's shame based.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Marc Cameron:Right? They're comparing themselves to to others, and they feel good about who they are based on the amount of likes that they get. And they don't you know, on the outside, it seems like they're very confident, but it's not. It's it's there's this whole inside of am I good enough? So we all struggle with shame, and it's learning to see where we struggle with shame.
Marc Cameron:And so the antidote to shame is confession. Mhmm. It's to say, I did this wrong. Bring it out into the open because shame makes us wanna run and hide. And so that's why, you know, that's why the Lord said, be faithful to confess.
Marc Cameron:You know, if you confess, I'm faithful to forgive you, and that's how the transformation happens.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Now you're preaching. That was, was that point number 1, confess your sins one to another? No that's, sorry, it's if we confess our sins to him, he's faithful and just to cleanse us. That's 1st John 19.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he's listening to our stuff. Alright, fear of judgment or rejection. Why would that be an issue for a therapist? I mean not for a therapist, for me coming, like you're gonna reject me, you're gonna judge me rather than help me. That just seems weird to me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean the whole point of therapy is to work through that.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. I mean, it takes a amount of vulnerability to go to therapy. Mhmm. And to talk about where you're inadequate, where you're insecure. Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:And it's hard to do that with somebody because we do think that, yeah, they're gonna judge us. Right? Now there's a difference between judgment and condemnation. We all make judgment. If I'm gonna cross the street, I look both ways, I make a judgment.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. So the whole thing about not making judgments, we all judge. Now condemnation is something different, and you really have to have a security in their relationship with someone to be able to confess some vulnerabilities about yourself. And so I don't know if that's based on your therapist is gonna condemn you or if others hear you are going to therapy that they might condemn you or think worse of you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. One of the things my wife has talked about for years is being a receiver of real. Have you guys heard her talk about that? So it's it's something that, you know, it's just so important. We went to this, like weekend seminar, like healing seminar, and I shared something very vulnerable.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I mean, the the host just pummeled me and I just just told him, I was like, you're terrible at what you do and I don't ever wanna be a part of this again. And everybody was just like, and I just left. I was like, oh my gosh, dude, like, you know, be vulnerable, get in the middle, tell us your deepest darkest secrets. And then we all have stones. And what they were trying to do is to, they were worried that I had offended Tammy, but I wasn't talking, I was talking about something that I was struggling with, but they and so in order to defend her, they just condemned me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was it was bizarre.
Marc Cameron:Well, and and you're not gonna get vulnerability from someone. When you when you attack someone, then naturally they will be defensive. You're not gonna get vulnerability from them because they're gonna we self protect.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That makes sense. Amen. Okay, past negative experiences, How do you manage that? Because I'm sure you've had somebody come to you that had a really bad experience with a therapist. So how do you help them with that?
Marc Cameron:Yeah. So therapy is a collaboration. I tell people that. You know, we are gonna come up with the goals together. If I'm if you're not sure where I'm going with therapy, with any therapist, you should be able to say, hey.
Marc Cameron:Can you help me understand where this is going? A good therapist should be able to tell you, this is the reason why we're doing this. And and you don't want the client to direct therapy because then, well, how am I helping you? Because you're doing it all yourself. But you, you know, you need the buy in.
Marc Cameron:It needs to be a collaboration. So it it it a a client should be free to say, hey, can we talk about this today? Because that's gonna be most helpful and a good therapist should be able to adjust to that and say, okay, let's do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. Okay, lack of self awareness, that's huge. A lot of people just don't think they have a problem. What do you do when you get a person that comes to see you like that? Because you guys specialize in couples.
Marc Cameron:Correct.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I bet oftentimes you have a spouse that's very interested, but you have another spouse that does not wanna be there.
Marc Cameron:Many, many times.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So what do you do with that? Happens.
Marc Cameron:So couples therapy is very interesting because it you have to be very directive. And I think some people go to therapy, and they don't have a directive therapist in couples therapy, and you end up talking about what I call the COW, the conflict of the week. And so they go in and they just talk about conflict of the week, and the therapist sits there and, you know, nods a little bit. And then they leave, and they don't feel like anything is solved. And so you need somebody to direct and position and say, okay, Face each other.
Marc Cameron:This is what I want you to start to talk about. This is how I want you to do it. Right? And and in doing that, you're positioning them, and they're building this neural pathway. And so I tell people, listen, couples therapy, it's it's individual growth work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:Right? It takes 2 secure people to have a secure marriage. Mhmm. You can't take 2 insecure people, put them together, and say, have a healthy, happy marriage. Like, that math doesn't work.
Marc Cameron:And so, this is individual work that you do. We use the couple's dynamic Mhmm. To expose this regulation to, create an opportunity for you to practice something new. And so I'm I'm constantly challenging each person separately on what I see their areas of growth are.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. Yeah. I would actually say this. So some of the hardest sessions I had with you because Tammy and I, we went as a couple, but let's say it was a week or 2 where she couldn't be there and it was just me and you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, because we were commuting to see you, we would do an extended session, which sounds great until you're just there. And I remember walking out of there going like, I I just needed to sleep for like 7 days because I was like, wow, there's a lot that I have to work on and process and it was heavy, heavy lifting. And you helped me to see some things that I just, you know, was unaware of. And I would just say that, for me, for those who are listening, I trusted Mark. Mark came highly recommended, but instantaneously, I liked you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would say this. You were competent. That's a big thing for me. Is this person somebody who is competent at their craft? Like, do like, have they, and I don't want to say mastered like imperfected, but mastered in they're an expert in their field.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I felt like you were an expert in your field. And, okay, I can trust this guy helping me to manage some emotional techniques that I've learned to to to make it in ministry because it's hard. And, you know, through the years, what I would say is if you're wondering what it's like to be a minister, just let people spit, slap you in the face and insult you and then respond like Jesus and you'll find what you're really doing is just burying, hiding. And then what I was doing is acting like didn't hurt. And I think that was not helpful because I was just saving it for later and you helped me to kinda pull that out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. We're gonna take some questions and, these are good. So these are actual questions from church members and our most famous church member is Annie, Annie Moss. And she writes Oh, nice.
Marc Cameron:I've heard of Annie before.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. She is a faithful question asker. And this actually is a male Annie, I think. But this is a great question. It's been 10 months since my wife cheated on me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I am praying for you, Annie. That is, something I am grateful that Tammy and I have never had to go through. But unfortunately, Mark, I have had I have had a front seat to adultery many times with friends, with pastors, you know, where I just I just saw lives destroyed. So I, you know, by the grace of God, I've been able to be faithful to Tammy. But one of the big reasons why is, I've gotten to see the aftermath over and over again, and it's never good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, so praying for you, Annie. 10 months since my wife cheated on me, I've been in therapy, praise God, church and community group regularly since then. I know it takes time to heal, but there are still so many unknowns. I believe I'm in the anger stage currently, and that's where my question stems from. Can you forgive someone and still be angry with them?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't wait to hear your answer, Mark. I still love her. Even now, I just want the best for her. I want her happy, safe, and loved, but I want to feel that too. It angers me that I have to suffer for an undetermined amount of time until I'm healed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thoughts. Wow. Thank you, Annie.
Marc Cameron:This this is a heavy question here. Whenever there's been betrayal, you and you need to go to a therapist who is skilled and understands betrayal dynamics. It's a whole other part of therapy. If you go to somebody who doesn't understand this, unintentionally, they they're gonna take you around and around, and you'll feel stuck. And you'll be saying, I've I've been going for so long.
Marc Cameron:Like, why isn't this healing? Why isn't this getting better? The wound of betrayal is, the person who has hurt you, so deeply you wanna run away from. That's your safety system. But then your attachment system says, I wanna run toward you, and you're stuck.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. You're stuck between these two systems simultaneously pulling you in 2 different directions. If you don't have a therapist who understands that, who can help explain that to you, you you're gonna be stuck between these two things. So so number 1, find somebody who's, skilled in betrayal who can walk you through this process, And it takes time. It starts with a full therapeutic disclosure, by the unfaithful person, for the betrayed person to then hear out.
Marc Cameron:And and that's a process in itself, to be worked through with a therapist so it's done, so it's not, blaming, Yeah. And so that the other person can hear it and there's there's confession in there. But to get to the the forgiveness part, oftentimes people think, you know what? I can't I have to feel like forgiving to forgive. And that's actually not true.
Marc Cameron:There's there's 2 parts of forgiveness. There are decisional forgiveness. There's decisional forgiveness and emotional forgiveness. And studies show that, often, it takes multiple times of decisional forgiveness before you reach the emotional forgiveness stage. And so, yeah, it's just the act of the will to do that.
Marc Cameron:And then later on and and forgiveness for you, Lewis B. Smead says to to forgive a to forgive someone is setting the prisoner free and realizing the prisoner was you. And so I would say to this person here, it's totally understandable that you are angry, and that you wanna forgive, but there's a lot of hurt to be worked through. And it's in that process that the healing will come. So make sure that you find a therapist who is skilled in betrayal, but don't be discouraged.
Marc Cameron:You're on the right path wanting to forgive, and just keep working on that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, you're the therapist, but as a pastor I would say it's okay to be angry if your wife or spouse cheats on you and leaves you. You. I think that's a healthy response. Like if you're like, I don't, that would feel weird. And I'm not saying go act on that anger, but I think that I would be deeply concerned if someone wasn't angry, like, if you're married.
Marc Cameron:Well well, then they're in the denial. Right? Whenever we have loss, we go through the process of grief. Grief has denial, bargaining, anger, sadness before acceptance comes. And it's not always linear.
Marc Cameron:We don't go through these stages 1 by 1, and sometimes we can go back and forth. But anger is a normal stage. You know, we're built in the image of God. God there's many times in the Bible that God gets angry, and anger can be very adaptive. Anger creates a whole physiological response in us that pushes us to take an action.
Marc Cameron:And so when we're angry, we need to maybe hold boundaries. We need to maybe leave in a situation. So anger's adaptive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen. That's such a good word. What do you think about this sentence? I just want the best for her, I want her happy, safe, and loved. What do you think about that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is that tension that you're saying? So he wants to run from her but still to her? Because I don't think if Tammy cheated on me and left me, I don't think I would sit here, Mark, I want Tammy to be happy, safe with love. That'd be like a little judgment, little fire.
Marc Cameron:And I think that's a part I think that's where he stuck. There's a part of him where he wants justice. Like, you've done this, you've hurt me. But he he loves her. He's attached to her, so he doesn't wanna see her hurt.
Marc Cameron:And so that that's where people get stuck is, like, can I be angry at you? But then I think, well, my anger's hurting you. And that's actually part of the betrayal recovery process is for the unfaithful person to be able to hold the betrayed person's anger
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Marc Cameron:And to actually give up, their right to be reactive for probably even a year so that that healing process can take place.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man. So I'd never heard of that, who specializes in betrayal. I'd never even heard that until you said that right now. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's amazing. Okay. Another Annie from Hemet, Anamos from Hemet. We love Hemet. Professional physicians such as, Doctor.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Gabor Mate. I don't know if I slotted his name, I apologize. I I speak Hebrew, I should be able to say his name correctly. Gabor Mate, believes that that ADHD is not a disease, but a problem of brain development from early childhood as well as an overall stressed society. How does a Christian who struggles with the issue deal with it holistically considering both childhood trauma and the advances of modern medicine.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Do you know who doctor Bate
Marc Cameron:is? I do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So I'm interested in your
Marc Cameron:Yeah. He's obviously a very smart man, probably smarter than me in a lot of different areas. There's some of what this question says that I I might agree with. ADHD is a real thing. So if some if somebody's interpreting it this way that it's not a real thing, it is a real thing.
Marc Cameron:I live with 3 people who have ADHD. Yeah. It's a real thing. Trust me. Yeah.
Marc Cameron:I don't you know, in terms of if it's not a disease, ADHD is termed as a disorder, Right. Not a disease. And I actually really even don't like that word disorder because I think it makes people feel broken inside. Like, there's something wrong with me. Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:And, really, that's the way that your brain has, been designed. I think with this 8 to 10% of people in society who have an ADHD brain, and and lots of times those folks are highly creative. Mhmm. But when you have ADHD, you struggle with planning, prioritization, organization, sometimes emotional regulation because it has to do with deficits in the prefrontal cortex.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Marc Cameron:So how do you so what I would say to that is there's a lot of research out there that shows that, ADHD is actually a real thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Marc Cameron:It does have to do with brain development. Now, we do know that trauma can impact somebody's brain development. Absolutely. So sometimes, somebody who's gone through a lot of trauma
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:Does have, cognitive deficits in that same way where they're very they're highly distractible, they're inattentive, and it has to do with a trauma response that's happening. And so I think if you go to a good therapist, they'll they'll they can kinda do some of that probing and take a historical approach and flesh that out. But when it comes to I think the question is more about, you know, identity, and, you know, how do we address this holistically? Well, the number one intervention for ADHD is medication. Now I'm not saying that everybody who has ADHD needs medication.
Marc Cameron:Medication helps, those folks be able to focus. And so if you have a job that requires you to do that, then medication may be helpful for you. If you don't have a job that requires you to do that, it might not be adapted to you. My wife has ADD. She worked in the ICU for over 10 years, and it was just so much stimulation for her.
Marc Cameron:She was really good at her job. She didn't need any medication because, you know, that environment worked for her. So I think 2 of the most important decisions that that you'll take if you have ADHD is, 1, the person who you marry. They need to understand this about you because there is an ADHD effect on marriage, in in terms of sometimes the non ADHD spouse can feel like they're the one who's doing most of the physical responsibilities at home.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:But the number 2 thing, I think, is the job that you pick. Pick a job that allows your ADHD brain to function, well. And I think if you do those two things and acknowledge that it's there, acknowledge that it has an effect, you can learn other strategies too. So, ADHD is also an intention disorder. These folks don't have the internal motivation that somebody else might have Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:To do the dishes or do some of these other menial tasks. And so, what you need to do when you don't have internal motivation, you need to supplement that with external motivation. So, you might put in a reward for yourself and say, you know what? I'm gonna have a donut. Yeah.
Marc Cameron:If I do these dishes. Or you might have to say to yourself, I'm not gonna watch my favorite TV show until I get the dishes done. And so, it's learning to put in this other scaffolding in place to help you through. But you're not you're not damaged if you have ADHD.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I don't know if I told you this in therapy, but, like, 15 years ago, I did neurofeedback therapy. Did I ever tell you that? Yeah, I told you. And it was life changing for me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I actually sat down with a good friend of mine. This guy's multimillionaire, but his ADD made mine look like nothing. And he literally ripped the equipment off his head, 5 minutes into therapy and ran out and never came back. And I just was, you know, my kids would say, dad, are you listening? Are you listening, listening?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like I knew it was a problem. It was a deep problem. Like I want my children to feel like I'm listening to them. You know, I wanted our church members to feel like I was attentive. I wanted to be able to focus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, I couldn't I couldn't read through a book until I was 35 years old. Like, I could not sit down and read a book. And the first book I picked was Lord of the Rings because when I was a kid, I loved it. But someone's like, shouldn't you start with a smaller book? I was like, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:This is the book. And I remember when I finished that book, I just cried. I was like, I can I can read now? And now I love reading, but but I did neurofeedback therapy, and that was life changing for me. I don't do medication, but I do do supplementation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Doctor. Amen, I don't know if you and
Marc Cameron:I talked about him. Yeah, amen, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, I use some, some supplements that he's recommended and they've been life changing for me, just to kind of help me focus. And I always take it before I preach and when I'm preparing my message. But I've neurofeedback really helped me in a in a lot of ways, but I just you know, my poor parents just struggled with me academically, you know, all through life. I just remember them pulling their hair out because I just wouldn't do the things that they asked. And it wasn't I was a bad kid.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was just it was the inability to focus, follow through, pay attention. I would just say fantasizing all the time.
Marc Cameron:And you lose track of time. People who are ADHD have something called what we call time blindness. You think it's gonna take you this amount of time to do it, and it's not. It's gonna take you double that amount of time to do it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I have a lot of compassion over this. And I actually lock I like a lot of what doctor Matthey says. You know, but, you know, you also know that there's clinical research, 2 kids grow up in the same home, one kid has it and the other doesn't. So, I mean, it's not, you know, it's not all about the things that happen to us, but it is sometimes an internal, you know, kids come out the way they come out and you have to deal with that despise environment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But it just says this, how do we deal with it? What I would say is all in. And so do therapy, do neurofeedback, and then if you need medication, I can't tell you, Mark, how many times I will have somebody stop me in the lobby with tears in their eyes, and they'll say, is it okay if I take medication? And they feel like they're sinning. And I always say, was it okay if you wear your glasses?
Marc Cameron:Right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, well, you need them. Well, let's pray over your vision. So if God heals your vision, then you don't have to wear them. But if he doesn't, then you need to wear them. And so what I tell people is they're just like glasses.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some people need them, some people don't. And the way glasses help people to see better, medication can help people to think more clearly and more focused. And as somebody who has battled this, you know, had it not been for neurofeedback therapy, sandals would not be as big as it was. I probably wouldn't be married. My kids would have a real hard time because it's hard to have a dad who's not present, you know, who's always somewhere else.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I'm a big, big proponent of that. But what I tell people is that medication is like steroids. So I like to work out at the gym. So if I just take steroids, and I'm not advocating that anybody go out and juice up today, but I'm just saying if you just gave me steroids and you gave me the best steroids, there are anabolic steroids, but I never work out. They're not going to transform my body.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I tell people is medication, I think, will help you, but you gotta work out. So in therapy, you know, doing doing the exercises, but I just see too oftentimes that people just choose medicine and don't continue the therapy. Don't continue
Marc Cameron:the Right. And and the medication stimulants for ADHD are short acting, meaning that once you take them, it works very quickly, but it wears off very quickly by the end of the day. And so it's just slowing your brain down long enough to learn new skills, build new neural pathways. But if you don't do that, then the medication doesn't Right. Fix you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. Okay. Camille, we got a real name from Minnesota. Thank you, man.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We got listeners everywhere. That's great. I recently watched a sermon. Uh-oh, here we go. Mark's not responsible for this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Of Pastor Matt about grace and how grace is what makes Christianity different from our other religions. I think this message was a year ago. Yeah. Okay. I remember this one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I absolutely agree. But what would you say to the person who has been traumatized by someone else? How do you balance giving grace when someone has hurt you and trauma still exists? So you didn't watch the sermon, but what do you think that you just watched this question?
Marc Cameron:Yeah. When I when I think about this, because I hear people asking this, and sometimes what they're really asking is, do I need to forgive someone? And then if I forgive them, does that mean I need to stay in relationship with them? And so forgiveness and reconciliation, those 2 are 2 different concepts. Yeah.
Marc Cameron:Oftentimes, they go together, but they don't always go together. And so sometimes, the healthy thing to do is to not be in relationship with somebody.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. And
Marc Cameron:so, and that that's the best thing for them and and not just you. So forgiving somebody and and having grace, doesn't necessarily mean that you don't then have to deal with the trauma. And so this is something that we often tell people, who have been betrayed because, they feel hurt and broken inside. Yeah. And then, you know, common statement is, well, I didn't do this.
Marc Cameron:Why do I have to deal with the aftermath? Right? And and if you've been in a car wreck and you didn't cause it, well, you still gotta go Yeah. Yeah. And do physical therapy.
Marc Cameron:You still gotta go and do the healing work. And it feels unfair Yeah. To actually have to do that. But we have to do that if we wanna be healed. And so those are 2 things I would say.
Marc Cameron:Reconciliation doesn't always go with forgiveness, but you have to work through your trauma Mhmm. When you've been hurt too to for you to get to a place of healing. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I would just say, Camille, you know, I mean, I haven't preached that message and I think it's been over a year, but for me, grace is more about releasing and it's just saying, God, I'm gonna trust this to you. And I like what you said earlier, Mark, that forgiveness is realizing that you set a prisoner free, but you were that prisoner. And so it's not so much about, you know, and it's not saying what they did was okay or right, it's just saying I'm gonna release this and I'm gonna give this over. And then Christians, I think, manipulate and really wound people with this whole idea of forgiveness. We had a girl, a young lady at our church, and she just was in tears.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she said, Pastor Matt, will you help me? I said, what's the matter? And she said, my father sexually molested me. She said, I'm getting married and my mother wants me to let him walk me down the aisle. And she said, because we're Christian, my mom says I have to forgive him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was like, where's your mom? You know, like, I mean, I just I turn into, you know, I'm the shepherd of this church. I turn into a protector. And I told her, I said, absolutely not. I said, I'll walk you down the aisle.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'll pick any men in this church to walk you down the aisle. You don't have to have a man walk you down the aisle. No, absolutely not. That is not, you know, forgiveness. It was just this gross misunderstanding.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's what you said, there's a difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. You know, what your dad did was wrong, you know, hand him over to the Lord. God, I'm gonna I'm gonna trust you with this process. I don't want that sin, to destroy me in the moment and destroy my life, So I'm gonna give that to you, but I'm not going to be in relationship with this gorilla that brutalized me. But it was just this bride, Mark, that's like, I have to forgive my dad because he did this to me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm like and then I asked her. I was like, well, did he ask for forgiveness? What do you think? She said, no.
Marc Cameron:No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm just like I'm like, oh my gosh.
Marc Cameron:And we can forgive someone who doesn't ask for forgiveness, but we need to be careful because if they haven't recognized what they've done, then they're not doing the reconditioning work Yeah. To to not do it again or to win your heart back.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. Okay, Camille. I'll be praying for you. Okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Chris from Riverside. I was wondering Pastor Matt, if you and Mark might be able to speak on the topic of opposite gender friendships. I don't know if you saw this question. This is so good. I'm struggling with a friendship my wife has made with a guy at church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They spend frequent time together and she has been caught lying about how often and whether there were other people present or not. We are currently in therapy about it, but I've seen no change. I don't know what to do. Mark, I cannot wait for your answer.
Marc Cameron:Yeah. This sounds highly suspiciously like, Chris, you are being betrayed. And and if you're not right now, all of the, dynamics in the environment is setting her up Mhmm. For that. When there's betrayal, there's something called gaslighting
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:Where you try and convince the other person that reality isn't real. Mhmm. And in Gaslighting, there's also there's an acronym called DARVO, deny, attack, reverse, victim, and offender order. And so, oftentimes, someone will say, well, no. You're being controlling of me.
Marc Cameron:Well, you've had friendships before, and they will just turn it around to make you feel bad to cover up what is going on inside. But I would say red flags, sirens going off, danger. And this guy, you know and even if they're not yet in a physical affair, it sounds like an emotional affair.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:And this guy's stealing intimacy from
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you. Right.
Marc Cameron:From, you know, from your wife. Mhmm. And so, yeah. I I think in a healthy marriage, you don't have opposite gender relationships in that way where there's no one else present. And your wife should be, able to say, if you're not comfortable with that, I love you.
Marc Cameron:You're really our relationship's more important than that. So I think red, flag sirens going off from you, Chris, and this really needs to be confronted.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man, I couldn't agree more. And so, Chris, we're we're making two assumptions. You know, number 1, that this is what what you're sharing is, is what's happening. So we don't have her here to say, no, that's not what's going on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I would say to anyone out there that if what Chris is sharing is true, I agree a 100% with Mark. A, I don't lie to my wife about who I'm spending time with, whether they're male or female, like that's a problem to me. Like if I'm lying to her about money or where I am or what I'm doing, you know, when our kids were younger, we would track them and they would feel so much like their freedom was being infringed upon. And I was like, your mom tracks me. I was like, and I'm paying for this whole show.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the reason I do that is so that she feels like I'm never doing something that she doesn't know where I am. And oh, by the way, our security team is tracking me and multiple pastors are tracking me because God forbid anybody ever says, Matt was doing this. I have multiple eyes in the situation that could say, yes, that was true or no, that was not true. But I would tell my kids I don't have anything to hide. I'm not worried about your mom knowing where I am and and, you know, if I got an accident or something that was unconscious, you know, I wanna know where to go.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But it was just And I just said it to my kids because the reason you don't want me to know, is it really about freedom or is it because you wanna be somewhere that you know I wouldn't approve? And they don't want it The truth is they wanna go somewhere they don't wanna ask for permission to be there because they know I would say no, and why is that? Because it's not good. And so anytime we're lying to a spouse or any significant relationship, there's a reason for that. You know what you're doing is wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, like you said, even if even if she's not yet crossed this line, you are headed in a very, very dangerous place. And I have deep concerns about any marriage where one person feels uncomfortable with your time with someone else and you don't immediately go, hey, the most important thing to me is you feeling safe and secure in this relationship. And so while I like this person and enjoy this person, I'm not going to spend time with them alone for your benefit. Now if it's somebody you work with, you know, because I mean, there are those relationships where, like, look, this is work, I got to do that. There are some things that you got to do because there's been weird situations, you know, where maybe it's like I've had police officers and they're partners and I'm like, look, you know, you go to the officer and say, hey, we got to switch to something my wife's uncomfortable with this relationship.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes you can't. You know, you're a doctor and they're a nurse. You have to work through those things, but do whatever you can to make your spouse feel safe, to make them feel secure. And that includes never lying about where you are and what you're doing. I just can't imagine a situation where that's healthy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What do you think?
Marc Cameron:Yeah. I think whenever you've got something to to conceal Yeah. That's a problem. Like, I my wife my kids could go through my phone. I mean, aside from confidentiality that my I might have with clients, they can go through my phone at any time because I have nothing to hide.
Marc Cameron:Right. And I think healthy, secure relationships have that transparency. That's how trust is built. This is how trust is eroded, and you can't build, a healthy relationship upon the sand of mistrust.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And trust is so important. I don't know if you remember this, my daughter's in here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I used to tell you, you know, that trust is always one decision for being broken. And I would tell it to my kids, like I love you, that will never change. Trust is something that changes immediately. And so, you know, don't make a decision that violates my trust. So do the right thing, say the right thing, and if you've made a mistake, you know, come to me and and and let's fix it.
Marc Cameron:And I and I would say here for you, Chris, next steps is to hold a boundary
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Marc Cameron:And and see if your wife is gonna be, willing to do that and and bring that up in therapy.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Marc Cameron:You know, and if you don't have a therapist who understands betrayal, get a new therapist
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Amen.
Marc Cameron:Who does.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. AOL. Such a good word. Alright. Last question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Deborah from Riverside, California. What does it look like to love your teenager who is dealing with gender dysphoria while also letting him know that you are not willing to accept help or go along with his decision. Man, I bet you guys get this a lot. I don't even know because you're registered with the state of California. So do they have any like laws or is there anything on what you're allowed to say
Marc Cameron:or not say? Well, there are certain laws on what you can and you can't say to a kid who comes in.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. Good. Okay. So context, we are both in counseling at this time. Praise the Lord.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He first told me that he was bisexual and just recently told me he is trans like a week ago through a letter. We have not discussed it yet for a few reasons. One being, I don't wanna say the wrong thing. This is a great parent, Deborah, you are awesome. And damage our relationship or what's left of his faith.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've been praying about this for months and the only thing the Holy Spirit is telling me is to love him and I do
Marc Cameron:Yeah. I I hear this, Deborah. And what I would say is no one's gonna love your kid like you love your kid. So whatever instincts that you have going on to protect and, communicate love, do that. Now kids, especially teens, they when they get to teenage head, they go through a stage called neural pruning, where their brain starts to get rid of information that it thinks it doesn't need to get rid of new information.
Marc Cameron:And, also, what happens is up until that time, it's all about me, me, me, me, me. Right? The me identity. When they get into adolescence, suddenly they become aware of this we identity, this group identity. Where do I fit in?
Marc Cameron:And so, you'll notice that that little kids will dance and sing in front of you, and soon as they become teenagers, all of a sudden they're aware of their surroundings. Same people, but now they're aware that others are aware of them. And so, during this time, teens look, you know, their bodies are changing too, so they feel uncomfortable and they start to think, What is happening in me? This has not been my experience throughout my life, and they look for groups to fit in. And some groups out there will say, well, this is the reason why you're feeling that way.
Marc Cameron:It's because you're uncomfortable in your body because you're in the wrong body.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Marc Cameron:So now, here's what I will say. There's there there are many teenagers who will have gender dysphoria, and then toward the end of adolescence, they won't. They'll understand who they are in their own body. And so what I would say to you, Deborah, is to affirm your son in who he is. This doesn't define who he is.
Marc Cameron:Right? He's your son and you love him, and nothing he does is gonna change that for you. And what I would say is is I would make sure that he knows that. But then ask good questions. Say say things like, help me understand, how you're feeling about this or why you think this way, rather than, you know, preach or lecture.
Marc Cameron:I think if you preach or lecture, they're gonna he's gonna turn you off and he's gonna zone you out. He really wants to know, you know, do you still love me even if I'm gonna be different and even if I feel, you know, different in my body? So that's what I would say. I'd also wanna say this, is is sometimes in our society, tolerance and affirmation are mixed up. Those two words mean 2 different things.
Marc Cameron:Just because you might tolerate someone's perspective on something doesn't mean you have to affirm their perspective as Yeah. True and right. And so, you know, true tolerance is you get to have your opinion and I and I'm able to hear that out. And I get to have my opinion, you get to hear that out. And we don't have to agree upon that to be able to be in relationship with each other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Man, such a great question. So, Deborah, a podcast is not a pastor. So there's so many questions that I would love to ask you if you were sitting in my office. The first thing I would ask Deborah is is there a dad in the picture?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, who is a male role model that he looks up to? And so I would just ask that, and that's not to put pressure on you as a single mom or a 2. I just wanna know that. But for young men so much so, especially in their teenager years, I mean, one of the ways that we understand our manhood is through someone else, a dad, an uncle, a youth pastor, an older brother, and it's hard, especially in this culture, to see masculinity that is affirmed. It's just a very, very difficult thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So masculinity is not affirmed in our culture, it's attacked. What is affirmed right now is femininity and trans and bi because those things make you unique. So I'm not saying that he doesn't have a genuine struggle or he isn't struggling in these things. What I'm saying is there's an overwhelming issue in our culture of this right now. There's a great book by, and you guys double check this, put it in the notes, I believe it's Abigail Schrier, it is called Irreversible Damage.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:She is a Jewish doctor that is writing on the fact that so many of these young people that are going through this, it's not an actual gender dysphoria issue. It's social pressure and social anxiety. And what she's saying is the research you you just don't see this increase by 2 1000, 3000% in a period of of a decade. That just doesn't happen overnight. What I would say is I love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I care for you. You're my son, and I'm so sorry that you're struggling through these things, and I'm there for you. What I would say is thank you for the letter. I'm here, you know, and and I'm your mom, and and I'm gonna love you. Let's talk about what you're hearing about school.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What are you feeling? What are you looking at on the Internet? Because what happens with these kids is they get on the Internet, they get all this information and they immediately the algorithm of TikTok or whatever sucks him into this vortex where it's everybody who says I transition and everything's great. So what I would do is just is just and don't attack that. Listen and then just ask this question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So are there any other channels where young people have transitioned and it didn't work out so well? So can we get some other information? Because I have a person that I love deeply that's transitioning and he believes that it's like a 1000%. Like, you do this, and I just said I can't use his name. I just told him, I just said, but that's not true.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so there's more and more information on TikTok of detransitioners. I was just listening to this young woman, talk about actually, in my algorithm research, it's just detransitioners. She just talked about the negative effects of testosterone. She said and and the thing is what your doctor won't tell you. And one of the things she talked about was when you get on testosterone your vocal cords enlarge, which I didn't know that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, a young boy when he goes through testosterone, our our larynx grows to make room for the testosterone filled vocal cords. Well, if you're a woman and you transition, your larynx does not grow. It does not make room. And she talked about how horrible her pain was because she has these gigantic cords that are impacted by testosterone. She ran through all of these things about how painful her clitoris was.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she's just like, look, it's sex is painful. It's awful. I don't like wearing underwear. It's uncomfortable. And she just said, I'm and she said, I'm not telling anyone not to transition.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I just wish my doctor would have said, hey. And our doctors are pressured to affirm and to care. And they're not talking about I mean, any other medical procedure, they would say, hey, K, Mark. Here are the pros, here are the cons. But with this issue, we're just not telling people like, you know, hey, man, there's some side effects.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you and I went to the doctor's office and we're like, we want testosterone, we're both men, our doctor would say, okay, well, here's some pushback.
Marc Cameron:Here's some
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:here's some effects of you as a male receiving synthetic testosterone. But if you're a woman, boom. And and there are negative effects on both sides and, so like for a young man, I mean here's just something to think and talk about. When you go on these hormone therapies you become at risk for both male diseases and female diseases. Like, it multiplies it because, like, you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so these are just some things just to talk about this and is this something that's permanent? Is this something that's temporary? And just really try to let him know that you're on his side because in the end, you're his mom forever and these people and these voices. And so, just really, and maybe I don't know if there's, you know, because therapy in California is tough because I don't know if therapists can legally try to talk a person out of this anymore, but
Marc Cameron:They're not allowed to.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So that's a very, very difficult thing. But what I what I would
Marc Cameron:Well, and it's and and I should clarify it like this. It's not necessary to talk a person out of it, But if somebody comes to you and says I have certain feelings and I don't want to have them, there's a limit to what you can process with them about that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So for those who couldn't hear, there is a dad in the picture. And so I'm sorry.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's why, you know, there's just not enough information here. So thank you so much, Deborah, for this. But what I would just say is it's so important that, you know, you love your kid no matter what. Like there's nothing, I may not affirm your lifestyle, I may not, certainly not gonna celebrate it. You know, I have a dear loved person of mine that said, will you go with me in a pride march?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I just said, no. That's, you know, and he didn't speak to me for a year. You know, he's a family member and I love him and I care for him. And I literally said, no, but I do love you. And he gave me the emoji laughing face with tears, because to him, love means I affirm what you're doing to your body.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, he's struggling transitioning and, he's somebody that's very, very close to me and I love him dearly, and I'm sad that he's battling these issues. And so the thing, Deborah, that I've learned with, you know, the person in my life that's struggling with transitioning is that is one issue of about 20 issues. But he has believed if I can fix that, all of these other things will suddenly magically go away. And the truth is it will just invite more. So I would just say, you know, invite the dad in this process.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Be very, very careful. I think as dads, there's a young man in our church specifically that, you know, struggled with homosexuality, this was maybe 10 years ago, and I recently went out to coffee with him and I just said, can I just apologize? And he said, for what I just said, for how I handled you as you were coming out. I just said I was scared for you and I was worried, and I kind of went, like, rated R explicit, like, you don't really wanna do this lifestyle and here's why. And I said, what I really wish I would have done is I love you and I don't think this is what God has for you, But as your friend and pastor, I'm here for you while you journey through this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I said, will you forgive me not because I think being an active homosexual is what God wants for you, but because of how I handled myself in this process. It was so interesting. He said, thank you. Because I was afraid for him, specifically of what men were gonna do to him. Because you and I know men are not all loving and tender and kind, and I was afraid for this young man that I had known since he was really little, but I was scary and harsh and very black and white.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I didn't see him as a young man really tormented with, am I gonna follow Jesus or am I gonna choose this lifestyle that my faith says is not okay? And, so it was interesting. And so he said, thank you for that, and we're still on journey. And what I would just say, Deborah, with kids, it's a long game. It's not like how do I win this argument, but how do I win my my son's love and affection and ultimately convincing him that what's best for him is God's best for him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that God doesn't tell us things. God's not trying to keep us from a party that's fun. He's trying to keep us from something that is damaging to us whether we see it or not or whether we agree with it or not. And ultimately, you know, God is for your son, loves your son so much so that he's saying, hey, there are some feelings that we have or some senses that we have that may or may not, we may or may not understand, but God understands and God is there for us. And so what I would just say is it's just so important to stand with what you believe, but to make sure that your kid knows that your heart is just for him, loves him, and is so saddened that he's struggling with this because being a teenager period is difficult, much less throwing in am I bi, am I, you know, what do you call it?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Am I struggling with gender dysphoria? Am I trans? That's a lot to process as a young man, particularly with a dad that's serving, you know, working in an industry that's outside. I wanna make sure that we save some confidentiality here. But but Deborah, I will be praying for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I love this, that he wrote the letter and I would start there. Thank you so much for entrusting me with this. I can't imagine how hard this was for you to write. I cherish this, that you trusted me. And then I'm so sad that you're wrestling through these huge issues.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And just know that I'm here and hopefully your dad is gonna be here, to help you process through this. What we believe the right thing is, God made you a male. God decided that and and we we want we want to stand on that side. But we understand you're an individual and you have individual struggle and so we're gonna be here ministering to you in this as you process. Because here's what I've learned is my kids don't remember what I said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What they remember is the feelings that were generated by what I said. They remember the emotions of the moment, not the specifics. And so if your son can walk away with my mom and dad really love me and they're rooting for me in this, man, I think that's a win because ultimately all of our kids grow up and choose their own choices and their own paths and, you know, we can't control them forever. So what can do is advise them forever. And what I want my kids to know is come to me first because I love you and I care for you, and I'm gonna tell you, you know, the truth to the best of my ability.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And this stuff I think is hard for parents, Mark, because this is not what I grew up with. Like, you know, I mean, I just, I did not know a person growing up and I'm 50, I'm older than you, but I did not know a person that was trans. Like, when I was in high school, I did not know 1 homosexual person in my high school. Now we have there were people that were gay, but I didn't know them. So things have changed so much.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So as parents, we're trying to prepare our kids for a world that we didn't grow up in and we don't understand. And I would just say that, but the truths of Scripture are eternal and and God understands and God knows and God loves your son. And so again, just just really really speak to I love you, I care for you, and let him know he's not alone. There are people in our church who feel the same way that he does and are trying to follow Jesus to the best of our ability. They are here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We do love them and we do celebrate them in that they are trying to, submit their desires to Jesus and submit their own understanding of themselves to Jesus. And then, you know, but identity is is the great struggle of our age. So sorry, I can talk forever. So anything you wanna say?
Marc Cameron:I think you nailed it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think you're paid to say that. Alright. Thank you so much for listening, Deborah. We will be praying for you. We'll be praying for your son and, we'll be praying for his faith in God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I pray that God speaks specifically to him in this. But we love you. Thanks for listening everybody. Mark, thanks for being here. Thanks for being my strength
Marc Cameron:Thanks for having me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And helping me be a little bit less crazy. I appreciate it. Alright. Thanks a lot, guys. See you next week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, don't forget if you wanna submit questions, submit them to the debrief. What is it?
Marc Cameron:Move.sc/hack.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Move.sc/Icannevergetitright. They'll put it in the notes. Love you guys. Have a great week. God bless.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. My book, Everyday A Miracle, comes out March 5th. Please preorder today. It is a book about a journey towards trusting God who heals inside and out.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thanks for watching the episode.