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In Ecclesiastes 3:11, we read that God makes everything beautiful in its time. It is comforting to know that nothing is wasted in God's economy, but all of it will be used for our good and His glory. You're invited to join us for poignant conversations and compelling interviews centered on believing for His beauty in every season.
Shannon Scott (00:31)
Well, hey y'all, welcome back to the Everything Made Beautiful podcast. And honestly, this conversation has been on my heart for a while. So I am glad that you're here because you know, we live in a world that is obsessed, I would say, with bodies. Fix this one, improve that one, compare yours to hers. And for all of that noise though, I haven't heard a lot of people.
actually sit down with scripture and say what does God say about this? Like what does he really say all the way from Genesis through Revelation? And my fabulous guest today has done that work and she did it with the kind of bold and no fluff honesty that I so respect from her.
Lisa Whittle is a bestselling author of nine books, a sought after Bible teacher, the host of the Jesus Over Everything podcast, the founder of Ministry Strong and Called Creatives. And she's a pastor's daughter like I am with deep, deep roots in the church. She knows this world and she's lived in this world and she's bringing all of that into her brand new six session Bible study, Body and Soul, a biblical look at the whole person God created you to be. So.
Lisa, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for doing this.
Lisa Whittle (01:47)
Man, thank you. This is just going to be fun and have a conversation between friends. And so I guess we'll just get into something small and insignificant, like let's talk about our bodies.
Shannon Scott (01:53)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
mean, who has feelings about that? Yeah. That's a pretty significant topic. And when I saw, ⁓ for those of you that don't know, Lisa is my very, very, very valuable writing coach. And she's, if you ever see a book come out of me, it will be because Lisa was successful because I have doubted myself for many years now and she is pushing me and I'm really grateful. And so because of that,
I knew that she was bringing this Bible study to the world. And I thought, man, it's going to be interesting for me to sit and contemplate actually what I believe about this, but also how that mingles and is part of my faith. Because I don't know honestly that I have ever really given it the amount of thought that you certainly did to write this. ⁓
So let's go back to the beginning. said that you grew up in the church. You and I are both pastors, daughters. And so how did that particular upbringing, and it is a very specific kind of upbringing, how did that shape the way that you see your body? Did your church get this right as you were growing up? Were there gaps? You've had to unlearn. What was your experience?
Lisa Whittle (03:13)
Yeah, that's a great question. ⁓ One that I've thought about a lot, I think my first instinct is to say that the church didn't really teach me anything about the body. But I don't think that's true because I think even in that thought process, there is something that you're being taught, right? So I think the silence and maybe the lack of teaching is a teaching in and of itself.
Shannon Scott (03:27)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (03:43)
And so I think what I deduced was sort of you're on your own with your body. That was never taught, but it was sort of like your body is something to manage and you need to manage it well. ⁓ It's like maybe sort of like the elephant in the room not to be discussed. And I don't think it was for lack of care. I just think it was for lack of understanding. That wasn't really something that was discussed back in my day.
Shannon Scott (03:43)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (04:11)
⁓ but it's true. Like it really wasn't a topic that was being largely discussed. And so I think it was a, it was an understanding of like quiet management. You need to sort of manage your body on your own and you need to manage your body well. And so when I thought of scripture related to the body, I think it was like kind of hardcore scriptures. was like,
Shannon Scott (04:11)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (04:38)
If your
eye offends you, pluck it out. If your hand offends you, cut it off. ⁓ so that sort of, think, like nodded more to this thought process that I had, this sort of quiet narrative of like, your body is unruly and it might work against you and you're going to need to manage it well. And by all means, just please don't do anything that's going to be embarrassing to the church or to Jesus.
Shannon Scott (05:05)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (05:07)
⁓ that is your body getting out of control. And then of course, the most famous verse, which is about your body as the temple of the Holy Spirit, it was again, sort of this idea of, you know, don't embarrass your temple or don't use your temple to embarrass the church. And I think again, that was more just something I deduced rather than something that was taught. But what was not emphasized was
Imago day and the beauty of the temple housing, the King. And so I think what all of those things just aren't really reinforced. You just kind of get the picture that the body is a problem. And I think certainly that was where I was.
Shannon Scott (05:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, and when you add in, you know, I grew up very much in the, as a female, it's my responsibility to be responsible also for the entire male gender as well. And so every way that I am or am not dressing my body is somehow offending or tempting or, and so you wrap all that into it and it certainly doesn't feel like the body or even that conversation is a place of comfort. feels very much like a minefield, at least.
It did in my experience. And you have said this was not something you were writing out of vanity, but more out of vulnerability. So what was kind of the personal thing that made you go, okay, this is the study that I have to write. And did you ever go, or perhaps I should write on peace or rest instead.
Lisa Whittle (06:25)
Yes.
Yes,
certainly there would be much easier topics. And, ⁓ if I would want to write for vanity, it would not be exposing all of my deepest, darkest feelings, emotions, and secrets about the body. Of course, some things, ⁓ I'm still working through and I think it's good to say you're still a work in progress on this. You know, for me, Shannon, this was not anything that I had the desire to write about nor the sense to know that.
Shannon Scott (06:47)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (07:14)
it would be good for me to write about because of the deep issues that I carried for so long. ⁓ was actually asked to write about this topic. Now it wasn't out of the blue. I had been talking about the body for a long time. I I found some, I found some things on my computer the other day, early writings about the body. I mean, I have been writing about the body for a long time in, in
Shannon Scott (07:27)
Mm.
Lisa Whittle (07:39)
in certain measure, a blog here, a blog there, a chapter in a book here or there, ⁓ just for years, really. But there were sort of like just tease things that for myself, not that I was teasing an audience, but that I was tiptoeing around real issues that I didn't even have the foggiest idea how to really mine because it hadn't dawned on me, maybe
you should go to the Bible and do like this theological deep dive. Because again, I wasn't really taught that that was something to do. And this might sound really strange, but even as, you know, even as a Bible teacher, I think that is been a miss for a lot of us for a long time, which is crazy because every single process that I've ever found freedom in has been from mining the scripture. But theologically looking at the body,
Shannon Scott (08:08)
Mm.
Lisa Whittle (08:35)
That's just not something that I really consider. But in, in 2022, I got to this point where for years I had been really, really sick of the body positivity movement. It's it, it started, you know, I mean, really that had been going on for, years, but in 2022, I remember thinking to myself, you know, I've been traveling this globe for a long time.
Shannon Scott (08:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (09:02)
hearing women's stories and I of course carry my own for so many years, but every story from women that I have been hearing had been attached to some type of like body trauma, whether it's like a little T trauma or a big T trauma and I'm not a psychotherapist so I'm not trying to diagnose what that actually means, but we know on a very raw scale what we're talking about here. We're talking about things that we carry in our body that have been difficult for us, memories, stories.
Shannon Scott (09:14)
Mm.
Lisa Whittle (09:30)
that were attached to something physical or emotional that had to do with our with our whole self. And I just was, I kind of got offended to be honest with you. I just felt like we've got this whole, this whole secular culture saying, just cheer yourself into loving your body. And I, I just knew that that was a farce. Basically. I knew that it would never be enough.
Shannon Scott (09:41)
You
Lisa Whittle (09:55)
And turns out I'm completely right because now all the people that were cheering their body or saying body positivity, you just rah rah yourself into it are the same people that now are saying, well, I'll just take medication or they're not even saying it. They're just taking medication and they're, you know, becoming a part of this skinny talk culture. I'm not here to talk about whether you should or shouldn't do those things. What I'm here to say is the whole body positivity movement was a farce and I knew it was true.
Shannon Scott (10:22)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (10:24)
So in 2022, I did a series of shows called Your Body Deserves More Than Hype. And because of that, that led to someone asking me to write this deep dive on this. so from there, I just really began to dig into the Bible. And I just will say that the Lord took me to school and showed me things that I had never known. And my question to him before I started this deep dive was,
Shannon Scott (10:47)
Hehehe.
Lisa Whittle (10:53)
God will ever be free. And I can tell you that after doing copious amounts of study and research and writing this, that I am free in a way that I never imagined I could be. And all the diets and all the positivity and all the things that I've tried to do have never allowed.
Shannon Scott (11:07)
Wow.
Well, and I know that that is likely what many people coming to this study are hoping is true because none of the other rah rah has worked for them either. And they've watched all those same people that you're referencing, you know, become shells of themselves or yo-yo back and forth. And, you know, now to your point that the everyone's wasting away culture.
And the study opens at the foundational place, which is the Imago Dei. We as human beings created by God are created in his image. And for those of us that grew up like you and I did, we always have known that. I mean, we could answer that in Sunday school, maybe not Imago Dei, but we could say, yes, we know we're made in the image of God. But why do you think we intellectually know that and then still struggle when we're looking in the mirror?
to believe that or even know how to get that from here to here.
Lisa Whittle (12:16)
Yeah, I think a couple of reasons. One, I think that we, we expect to have a concept, know it, and then that equal perfection and never have a struggle in this life, which is what, one of the things that I think, makes us mad about, or, or gives us this false expectation of anything, like even approaching a study like this, we're like, but will it help me lose 40 pounds or, but will I be perfect and never have any type of
Shannon Scott (12:42)
you
Lisa Whittle (12:45)
thought crossed my mind again about wanting to lose weight. And the reality is we are wanting to be free from the human experience of living a human body flesh from like freedom in Christ that we have that is a measure that is afforded to us, which we talk all about in this study. And there's two things at play. You never be free from the human experience in this world. There will be trouble. You are not going to have perfection as part of your journey. So
you might know a concept, but you have to go through a process of understanding what it is and practicing it in your life so that you have a measure of freedom that is possible for you. Now, I also think that a concept like Imago Dei being made in the image of God is a concept that on a very raw level is too big for us to grasp. So it's important for us to think about how it affects our daily living. That's the real
Shannon Scott (13:28)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, that's good.
Lisa Whittle (13:44)
honestly, Shannon, because we have to think what does it have to do with my body journey? And what does it have to do with ⁓ diet culture and working out and weighted vests and macros and all of that stuff and medication? And if I live with chronic pain, because otherwise you're not connecting the dots. If you only think, okay, here's a MAGO day, Genesis 1, 27.
Shannon Scott (13:59)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (14:09)
It's an actual thing in the Bible. It's not just like this phrase we're throwing around in Christianity or it shouldn't be. But if you don't understand those two things, then you don't understand that it's that your, your creation, the creation of you, Shannon or Lisa is not about relegating your life to a gene size. And this, it sounds crude and ridiculous, but
So many of us walk around and the consuming thought that we have every single day is, but what size am I? Or what do I look like in pictures? Or what do I look like in the mirror? Or how do I feel today? Am ⁓ I ⁓ Am I able to get around? And I am not minimizing at all the limitations that we have, which are very real. But when we understand what we were created for, it's not about how we look and it's not even about how we feel.
Shannon Scott (14:40)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (15:02)
It is about, I do I bring glory to God in my whole embodied self? And so a lot of us have really sold ourselves short as people, which is why we don't understand our purpose in life and search our whole lives for it. And we don't like ourselves very much, struggle with identity, because the Imago Dei is all about identity and fullness of self. And it will make us carry ourselves differently as women when we walk into a room.
Shannon Scott (15:03)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (15:31)
and as men as we are in our, ⁓ you know, operating our business in the day to day and as mothers and as pastors and all of that. And so it's important. It's actually really important. And so we can't just throw around phrases and not understand what it means for our life, which by the way, Shannon is why I made this into a Bible study and rather than just books that I want you to read like a monologue because you need to mine the Scripture for yourself. And we pull Imago Dei apart.
Shannon Scott (15:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (15:59)
so that you understand how it relates to your daily life, not just this lofty concept that we just go, yes, I'm made in the image of God, praise God, but you don't even really get it. And that's the problem, there's a disconnect.
Shannon Scott (16:10)
Right.
Well, and you do such a
you do the reader you do us such a service in taking us on this journey from creation to revelation in scripture and just basically looking at the whole arc of scripture through this lens of the body so obviously i'm not asking you to re you know regurgitate the whole study but when you think about that journey what surprised you most as you were studying it about what the bible actually says about our bodies
Can you think of something that was just like a wow, how have I never considered this?
Lisa Whittle (16:50)
think the biggest consideration for me that was such a shock was the care of our whole self from creation to resurrected body, meaning God is such a strategist. There was such a purposeful point in the Incarnate Christ and the resurrection, the crucifixion and the resurrection and the temple and how
We house the King and the body of Christ. There is such intentionality from Genesis to Revelation in us. And it just makes you hold yourself differently. mean, the theological threads and implications make you see yourself and carry yourself far differently. there is no way
to have a lack of healthy self-esteem, not because you are feeling great about what size you are or feeling great about how cute you are or whatever, all of those things just really pale in comparison when you understand how intentional God was in creating humanity and human beings and our whole embodied self.
It is so far beyond the word genius, so far beyond the word care, so far beyond the word intentional. I mean, it is about, I can't even get into it, but it is about like being born and yet dying and then living because of having the ability to be reborn through Christ. We are wasting away in our bodies, but we are being ⁓ renewed day by day internally.
for the glory that awaits us, but we are able to bring God glory even in a body that is wasting. I'm telling you, Shannon, think what, everything changed for me, but it changed the way that I see aging. It changed the way I see like my wrinkles. It changed the way that I see my hips, like everything. I sort of mourn.
Shannon Scott (18:58)
Mm.
Lisa Whittle (19:09)
all the years of not knowing this because I think it could have saved me a lot of unnecessary angst over things that maybe I still don't love. Do I still wish I was 10 pounds less? Sure. Like I'm a human being, but I just don't, I'm not consumed with it. I just carry myself and hold myself differently because I now have had my theological eyes open to who I am. And I think that is the beauty of
Shannon Scott (19:26)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (19:37)
having this whole body theology that I never had before. I'm just a changed woman. And that's what I can tell you that the Bible does, not what Lisa Whittle has just become, right?
Shannon Scott (19:46)
Yeah.
Well, I was thinking there are people who are not even going to finish listening to this podcast because now they're busy buying the study because they heard some of what you just said. ⁓ but you mentioned the crucifixion and this was really powerful for me where you connect the crucifixion to our everyday body struggles and we all have them. And I used to think that people who were, you know,
call it thin and beautiful in my estimation, didn't have these same struggles. And I have several of them as friends now and they all have exactly the same struggles I do. What a fascinating tactic of the enemy. But ⁓ can you help us understand just a little bit more about the association that you make in the crucifixion and what does...
Lisa Whittle (20:27)
Yes.
Shannon Scott (20:43)
It is finished. Those three words from the cross. What does that have to do for the woman who hates what she sees in the mirror when she's getting dressed every day?
Lisa Whittle (20:55)
Yeah, I'm glad you asked this. ⁓ was the hardest concept for me to mine and it's still a really big concept. That's why chapter four, ⁓ session four in the study is really big ⁓ or maybe it's session three. I don't know. I don't remember. doesn't matter. because I had never looked at the crucifixion closely and understood what that had to do with my daily living.
There's nothing that's not purposeful, that is not applicable for us as human beings. And I need us to understand that. I think what we have believed, I certainly believe this, was that the crucifixion was that I might have be given life eternal. And I want to make it clear, that is the primary reason, ultimately for our salvation, for freedom from sin and death and life eternal.
Shannon Scott (21:46)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (21:49)
So yes, that is the primary reason. But I need us to understand that this gift to us was not for like this just future thing. It was not for a ⁓ one and done moment, but nothing else. That gift of the crucifixion of the embodied Christ who came very purposely to release us from shame and death
and to give us freedom.
was that we might have the gift of reliance upon him even in our daily living. So that's part of that gift as well that I think we bypass and don't understand. Now, do we have agency over our bodies? Yes. Do we have the gift of free will and choice? Yes. And that's why this is too much for a podcast right now. But the point being is that we are not doomed
in our bodies, even with bodies with limit bodies with limitations, even with bodies that we don't prefer all of those things. We're not doomed. And I think the reason why this is critical to understand is because there are a whole lot of us that have that have felt for a long time, like, will I ever be free or I won't ever be free? And that that that question that I even asked the Lord before I mind this study and it is inconsistent.
Shannon Scott (23:13)
Right? Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (23:21)
with the Bible and what we know, and I go into Romans 6 in a very large way in the book, which takes you through it. You can look through that. There's obviously a lot of other scriptures as well that you go through yourself. it's inconsistent with what we know from scripture that we cannot have a measure of body freedom in this life. And ⁓ a lot of that is due to His crucifixion that we were
meant to be reliant upon Him. So, it is finished, is for our in-process life. He has done the finished work and we are in-process people, but His 100 % meets our less than 100%. And we are able then, through Christ, to do all things in this life. We are more than conquerors through Him. And so, those things are simultaneously true.
Shannon Scott (24:16)
Mm.
Lisa Whittle (24:22)
And were it not for his gift of this, we would potentially be doomed to just a body that's out of control and we can't have any agency over. But we know that we have the ability to ⁓ have a sound mind and that we have the ability to take captive thoughts. And much of our body struggles are rooted in the mind, as we know.
Shannon Scott (24:31)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (24:50)
All of these things are critical and that's where the crucifixion comes in, in just a small snippet, but of course, in the study I go into it much more.
Shannon Scott (24:58)
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I wouldn't be talking about this if I didn't think everybody should do this study. But you know, so that there's no confusion, you need to get this study and you need to do this study. ⁓ Because Lisa's right, we can't we're flying over it right now. And it deserves a deep dive. But it was really profound for me that it is finished part was really profound for me. I can't tell you how many times I've taught
that why are we still trying to work out something that's been finished, but I've not ever applied it in this way. And it's so true. ⁓ This isn't one of the questions I told you I was gonna ask you. So sorry that this is coming out of left field, but I'm wondering. ⁓
have a tendency and a proclivity toward legalism. it's what I'm most comfortable with. it's what I grew up in. I'm a very black and white thinker. it's really helpful to me if I have a do list and a don't list and I can just avoid the don't list. as you were studying this did you was there a concern or did you at all start going how like how far do I
take this basically? ⁓ Am I going to stop eating this, this, and this because it's a saturated fat and I'm not supposed put... How do you take this, what you call whole body theology and apply it in a way that doesn't feel legalistic or limiting with all that you are learning? Does that make sense? And I may not be asking that correctly.
Lisa Whittle (26:36)
Yeah, no, ⁓ think, know, we all have tendencies. I think we either have a tendency towards legalism or we have a tendency toward permissivism. ⁓ And ⁓ so I do address that a bit in the study because I really wanted to speak to both camps. ⁓ I also tend towards legalism, but I do it more towards myself, I think, than anything.
I think for me, Shannon, I have lived such a life of restriction that whole body theology for me felt like a breath of fresh air because I had for so long been tied up in this belief system that it was all dependent upon me pressing the right buttons and following the right rules and A plus B equals C. And if I
Shannon Scott (27:32)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Lisa Whittle (27:34)
The reason why I kept failing at losing weight or being a certain size was a character issue or I just liked sweets too much or whatever the case was. And there was a lot of condemnation and shame in it. And so for me, think this looking at the whole Bible, seeing myself for who I completely was, understanding what the issues really were and that
Shannon Scott (27:49)
Right.
Lisa Whittle (28:04)
looking at freedom, looking at sin, looking at, you know, look, pulling this apart, looking at the compartmentalization aspect of this, it actually helped me know where I could do something about it, where Satan was at play, and really what the issues were. helped me see myself. So I think for me, ⁓
It didn't feel like, I'm gonna be imposing rules here. It felt to me like I'm going to show you the Bible with this and you and the Lord are gonna have to work out the body topics that go along with it. ⁓ And I think that for some folks could be frustrating. Maybe some folks expect me to go.
Shannon Scott (28:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's good.
Lisa Whittle (28:56)
So as a result of this, then I want you to do the Mediterranean diet and I want you to also buy a 12 pound weighted vest. ⁓ If that's what you're looking for, that's not what you're going to get here. Here's what I would propose though. You can find that on Instagram. You can find that from any, any expert in the field, but how has that helped you ultimately or has it continued to provide more exhaustion for your soul? And what I will tell you is that the
Shannon Scott (29:04)
Yeah.
Yes.
Lisa Whittle (29:25)
Bible works and the creator of our bodies is who I believe is the ultimate expert in how we will have freedom. That is a biblical concept and that's going to be the bottom line and the last word mic drop. ⁓ you know, if someone's looking for me to tell them what they should do from here in that sense, they're not going to find it. But what they will find is some real practical tools in the end to say,
Here are some things to drill down on to help you and the Lord discern what you do next. Because here's the thing, Shannon, I'm not against weighted vest or cold plunging or whatever. Even medication, this is not about that. What I will say to people is get a whole body theology first, then make your decisions. Because most people have never even, they don't have a framework. So all they're doing is out there willy nilly making decisions. This is what I did for years.
Shannon Scott (30:14)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (30:22)
out there willy-nilly making decisions about should I take medication? Should I, and I'm talking about weight loss medication, not like medication to save your heart, but like, should I do this? Should I do that? Should I go to the gym? Should I do this diet? And they don't even have a belief system about their body that's rooted in the Bible. It's so interesting, because I've had people DM me since writing this study, like trainers, and they're like, I would love to train you. And I'm like,
Shannon Scott (30:31)
Right.
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (30:51)
I'm open to you training me, but I would love for you to do my study first. When you do my study, after you do my study, then call me back. Because that is the groundwork that we need to then make the best decisions for our body. And so that's the challenge that I would put forth.
Shannon Scott (30:53)
Yeah.
So good. ⁓ You know, for me, my body image issues have not necessarily come from an outsider traumatic source, but you deal really openly with body shame and trauma. And there are women who are carrying pain and shame around their bodies. And the reasons are so visceral and so tragic and so understandable that it can, you know, well, just love yourself does not work.
for that. ⁓ And so what would you say to that woman who's like Lisa I hear you but you don't understand I've actually tried everything and I don't think I'm going to be able to get to a place where I can navigate this or come to any kind of freedom in it. What would you say to her?
Lisa Whittle (32:05)
I would say to her that it's never too late. you know, the shame piece is something that we've been fighting for a very long time. I Genesis three is really was the very beginning of that. It was, you know, when it, when it talks about in the word that, that then the eyes of both talking about Adam and Eve were open and they knew that they were naked. This is not a, physical thing. This is an inner awareness of sin. And
I think a lot of us have heard of that in the church, but what we haven't really talked about in that was this was the first sort of body and soul ⁓ sort of full picture here of when the body and soul were aligned in the way that the soul was informing the way that the body was perceived. And so it's interesting and vice versa.
The reason why a lot of us have experienced shame so deeply and so many of us have, I didn't even realize to the depth that I had experienced it, is a couple of things. One, we have compartmentalized who we really are. We have made our worst mistake, ⁓ define our whole self. And that is not at all what scripture teaches us. And so I would really encourage you more than anything.
⁓ to see what the Bible says. The other thing is we don't really know how much God loves us. And shame always is the overwhelming place that is a big blinking sign that tells us we need to do a little work in understanding the great love of God for us. He's not mad at us, he's not punishing us. That's just not the way that
Shannon Scott (33:40)
So good.
Lisa Whittle (34:01)
that it works. We might have a sin issue that we need to deal with, but that's not the same as shame. And there's nothing that we can't come to Him for and repent of and make it right. That's the beauty of repentance. It's just a great coming back together and turning from that. And so there's just so much hope and possibility in where to go next. And so I just would encourage her to take a look at it. know, in the church, historically,
we've been presented. And I love the church. The church is, you know, like you Shannon, it's been my great love for years and years still is. But in the church, you know, our bodies and the topics around them have been really presented as either gluttony or modesty. And the Bible has a whole lot more to say about who we are as our whole body, mind and spirit. And so
Shannon Scott (34:56)
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (34:57)
I think those things are products of how we see our whole selves. so I think what I would love for anyone listening is to just sort of put the brakes on thinking about food and thinking about the way you dress and thinking about, ⁓ you know, some of these topics that you have just been fixated on perhaps. And
really say, I want to know what the Bible says about my whole self. Like I was created this whole being, body, and spirit. I want know what the Bible says about that because it will affect the way you consume food, the way you move your body, but it will also affect the way that your sex life, will affect your rest life. This is not just about what size bathing suit you buy for the summer.
Shannon Scott (35:50)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (35:54)
And we are really selling ourselves short when we think that's what it's about. yeah, I would just encourage us all to kind of think a little bit deeper about this.
Shannon Scott (36:06)
So good. ⁓ I know you have probably encountered a lot of people as this study has been out in the world that are like, yeah, but I have either ⁓ a very limiting disability or I have chronic illness or I live in chronic pain all the time. And really all I do is try to survive my body. What does whole body theology?
look like for that person that is probably on this side of the veil not going to experience ⁓ any kind of physical necessary healing or resurrection in that area but ⁓ does that mean they can't have whole body theology or that it just looks really different and is intentional based on that particular circumstance in their lives?
Lisa Whittle (37:00)
You know, that's the, I think that's the thing that I love about whole body theology the most, which is just like a biblical belief system of your entire personhood, body and soul. ⁓ that's the thing I love about it the most is that it is the only, only thing that does not disqualify some type of body. Only thing, doesn't leave any body out because whole body theology is really about the belief system based on the word of God that
Shannon Scott (37:21)
Hmm.
Lisa Whittle (37:30)
I think the summation is found in 1 Corinthians 1031, is, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God. It's basically everything you do, whether you rest or whether you work out or whether you eat food or whatever you do.
Do it all to the glory of God. It is the summation of everything you do in your embodied
So wherever you are in your body journey and whatever you're dealing with, you can bring glory to God. That means whether you are in a disabled body, whether you have a chronic illness, ⁓ whatever your limitation is or whatever you don't like, it doesn't matter. It does not disqualify an aging body or...
A body with limitations, whole body theology is a belief system based on the Word of God. There is no disqualifier. There's no ⁓ respect for persons in the Word of God. It is all about bringing glory to God. I think about my life hero, is Johnny Erickson Tata, who I cannot think of a person that more brings glory to God sitting in her wheelchair.
Shannon Scott (38:44)
Mm.
Lisa Whittle (38:57)
And so that is the beauty of whole body theology is I really, truly cannot think of anything else that doesn't disqualify somebody because, you know, if you think about it, we age out of everything else or we become irrelevant for some type of business or whatever in this world. ⁓ You know, there's some type of exercise program we might not be able to do if we're disabled in some way.
But whole body theology leaves no one out.
Shannon Scott (39:29)
So good. Yeah. And there, you can have a whole body theology no matter what is what I hear you saying. And so it isn't that wholeness is about your body has to be whole for you to have a theology. It's you can have an entire theology regarding the body, which is so good. Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (39:48)
Whole is totality. I'm talking about, yeah, whole
totality and whole meaning whole, your whole self, which is body, mind, spirit. You're a whole person. So it's not about wholeness being without limitation or in your mind complete. Yeah, that's not what it's saying. Yeah.
Shannon Scott (39:59)
Hmm.
Yeah, so.
Well, you mentioned at the top, let's talk about the scripture. And when I say the scripture, I mean the scripture that I feel like I heard. I've maybe heard this out of first Corinthians six. I can't probably thousands of times, but it was almost always in terms of don't.
Lisa Whittle (40:15)
You
Shannon Scott (40:28)
drink, don't smoke, don't have sex before marriage. Why? Because your body's a temple of the Holy Spirit. ⁓ Historically for me and maybe for a lot of us that scripture has certainly been associated with and so here's all the things you should not do and rule keeping and maybe even shame especially in certain upbringings. So
For people that kind of recoil about that, cause it's been used more as a bat to beat them with than a balm to soothe them with. How do you reclaim that as good news? Cause you do. So I'd love for you to just talk a little bit about that.
Lisa Whittle (41:07)
Yeah, that is so critical for the church. And I have, I sometimes will still see it in Instagram real or a like of a sermon. And it's, it's sometimes it's in the context of like your body as a temple of the Holy spirit. Don't eat that junk food. And I'm thinking to myself, I know what you're trying to do, but it is just so not helpful. Like, yeah, like, like it's just, you know, why is because
Shannon Scott (41:27)
It's fallen short.
Lisa Whittle (41:36)
It's just dumbing down the verse. It's dumbing down. It's, it's watering down the beauty of what that means. And so it's just, does not draw us in a way that scripture intends to, draw and motivate us. it, you know, human nature and human beings are not going to live in a way that it
that we are fashioned to live, we are created to live if we don't understand the fullness of something. And so I think that's what pains me the most about it. Honestly, Shannon is like, we have a whole bunch of people who have felt beat over the head with that verse. in reality, if we knew that our body as now the temple that the Holy Spirit lives in, when we've given our life to Christ, ⁓
⁓ that it houses a king and the ⁓ enormity of what the temple was. And now that we are that temple, it's just the beauty of that. It's not a shame conversation. It should be a strength conversation, a beautiful strength conversation. And so I think it's so important. This is why we have to be careful in the way that we present the word in the context that it means.
Like this is when people talk about biblical fidelity and things like that. Sometimes we like start snoring because everyone talks about it, but it's more than just reading the Bible. It's actually reading the Bible and presenting the Bible in what it means so that we will live in such a way that is true and right. ⁓ so, extensively in the study, I talk about the importance of
Shannon Scott (43:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lisa Whittle (43:32)
this, that our bodies being the temple of the Holy Spirit and what that verse actually means. And so I just would encourage folks to really mind that scripture and understand that it is not about, it's not about shaming us into dressing correctly or not eating junk food. That is a dumbed down version of the verse to be, to say it very mildly.
Shannon Scott (44:00)
Yeah. Yes. To say it mildly indeed. Yes. That's a different podcast. You have founded an organization called Ministry Strong that is specifically dedicated to helping people not do what we have seen so much of across the years, which is just flat out burnout. And, and even I have seen so many people
Lisa Whittle (44:03)
I'll leave it at that.
For time's sake, I'll leave it at that.
Shannon Scott (44:30)
become really, really jaded. Some people walking away from their faith and renouncing it entirely, just all the things that we've seen happen. And as I was thinking about this study and thinking specifically about ministry leaders, ⁓ I had no idea the kind of mental gymnastics that would begin in my life when I started teaching and...
for lack of a better way to say it stepping on a platform in front of other people the amount of time I would spend on what I was wearing and how do I get in layers so that my chest is not inappropriately on display how do I get the birthing hips under control does this look ridiculous then I would see photos of an event or see myself on camera and think I don't know that teaching the Bible is worth this because it was horrific and
Lisa Whittle (45:19)
Yeah
Shannon Scott (45:23)
And that became like I was plunged into something that I wasn't prepared for by simply following what I felt like God was asking me to do. And I don't know that we talk about that enough, especially for female ministry leaders. And, and I'm specifically talking about people who have to get up in front of other people in that form of leadership. So is there, and this, this doesn't have to be the case, but is there something specific?
because you know that world so well about how ministry of leaders relate to our bodies, performance pressure, public presentation, what we're wearing, how we're judged, how we're judged much differently than our male brothers when we're on a platform that
you'd want to name just for ministry leaders who are listening or or really any women who are ever getting up in front of groups of people and thinking I wish men knew the secondary struggle that's attached to disobedience.
Lisa Whittle (46:23)
Yeah, this is a meaty question and a juicy one and it is real and you're right. And just today I saw a photo of me from the weekend and I thought, that's an unfortunate angle. And I prefer that that photo was never taken. ⁓ But I digress. ⁓ Yeah, this is real and hard. I think what I would say is the unfortunate thing for female speakers and anyone who gets up in front of folks, ⁓
Shannon Scott (46:38)
huh.
Lisa Whittle (46:53)
is we as females have to worry about far more than just ⁓ what we're there to do. We have to worry about how we present. ⁓ Even if it wasn't real, it's real in our minds, but it is real because ⁓ other women are judging us from their seats. So it's a whole thing. ⁓ I think this is why it is even, I'm really not trying to sell a study. I really mean this because it's in my heart of hearts.
This is why it is important that we get free because if we are not free from this, the mental gymnastics, as you talk about, then we are, we are going to live in our head and it hinders us honestly, Shannon, from what we are called to do. I do lament the years that I worried about this too much. It still bothers me sometimes. I will be honest. Like I said, I looked at that picture today and I thought, I regret this.
Shannon Scott (47:45)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (47:49)
I everything about this. regret what I was wearing. I regret the photo. I regret it all. ⁓ But I just don't live there anymore. You know, it's interesting because, you know, right now the big talk is about food noise. I think the bigger issue that we deal with is actually not that, but it's consuming body thoughts. And consuming body thoughts is a completely different issue. And so we can quiet food noise with by whatever means is, you know, in culture now. But
Shannon Scott (47:50)
Hehehehehe ⁓
Lisa Whittle (48:18)
Consuming body thoughts will live on if we don't get free from what we know and what we learn from the word of God. There's not a magic pill for this, but there is real true freedom and having a body belief system is very important. then living from that is the second part of that. I think what is critical is that we continue to ask ourselves ⁓ as we are like honestly aging and tempted to
do things to fix ourselves and whatever is to ask the question why versus why not. Because for me, when I continue to drill down on that and say, Lisa, why do you want to do this versus well, why not do it? You know, it's fine. It might be permissible. Like it's not hurting anyone. I don't think it's a sin. The better question is why? Why do you want to do it? And nine out of 10 or 9.99 out of 10 times when I asked myself that question,
There's something with the Lord that I need to deal with and it is usually a, you know, just an insecurity issue in that moment. And I don't know for, I just want more freedom than having to constantly do maintenance. ⁓ I listen, I take care of my skin. love makeup. I like to get my roots dyed. So I'm fine with all that stuff, but at the end of the day, it, there has to be something more that I find confidence in.
in what God's called me to do. Like I have to have more confidence than in what my outfit looks like when I'm preaching the word of God. What a shallow amount of confidence that I have if my shoes look cute. I like cute shoes, but like I just really want to develop more than that inside of me. And ⁓ there's just not enough time to sort of focus on both. And so I think I've just gotten a lot more serious about
Like what is developing inside of me versus what am I like trying to present optically?
Shannon Scott (50:22)
Well, Lisa, I have to tell you, I'm so thankful for this work that you have done. It is going to not only serve women, but I think it's going to serve men. I think it's going to serve pastors and ministry leaders. It's going to serve the church as we
attempt to ⁓ apply scripture to every part of our lives, not just the parts that we've historically found easy to apply. ⁓ And so this is a huge step in that direction. So thank you. Before you go, I do want to ask you the question that I ask every guest on this podcast, which is, because this is the Everything Made Beautiful podcast, if you could architect your perfect, beautiful day,
what would it look like from start to finish? And I will say that the caveat is if you have restrictions on your life right now, like if you're gluten intolerant or you can't have dairy or something like that, that doesn't have to exist in the perfect, beautiful day. So what would that look like for you?
Lisa Whittle (51:22)
Nice. Oh man. Okay. Well, you know, sometimes I'm bad at like when it's a wide open anything, cause I'm used to, I'm used to like operating under a strict schedule. So I don't know. I think it would be 65 degrees. We would, I would have family. would probably only be with my family to be honest, cause I'm an introvert. So there would be no one but family.
We would probably be in the mountains somewhere, somewhere beautiful. And we would be doing some type of adventuring together or something we'd never done. Then we would go eat something amazing. There'd be lots of laughing. ⁓ and we would, there'd be a diet Coke involved, a very crisp, a burger throat diet Coke on ice, lots of ice. And yeah. And then we would come back to an amazing place that we were staying and we would.
hang out, play a game, laugh together. We would have a really good talk about something deep because I enjoy a deep conversation. And then my husband would go to sleep and we would play a prank on him. This is actually pretty close to something we experienced when we went to Montana recently. So yes, that's a pretty perfect day for us. Yeah. And then a really good, really good bed with probably a heated mattress pad would be on the docket for me. So yeah.
Shannon Scott (52:26)
Mm-hmm.
Let me
Mm-hmm.
Lisa Whittle (52:47)
That would be a good day for me.
Shannon Scott (52:48)
I love the idea of a heated mattress pad. I'm filing that. Yeah, I'm that. Okay. Well, Lisa, I have to just say thank you for giving us your time. I know that a cost is associated with ever putting anything in the world. So thank you for the costs I know you've paid and will continue to pay in order to do this. I know the reward though is very great for those of us on the receiving end. So thank you for that.
Lisa Whittle (52:51)
I'll send you the link. I'll send you the link. Yeah.
Shannon Scott (53:15)
For those of you listening, please check the show notes. I will link not only that study, but Lisa's website and Instagram and all of those good things. You need to be following her. She is a treasure trove of good information and encouragement. ⁓ Subscribe to her email list and you'll be able to find all of that stuff in the show notes. And until next time, just be on the lookout for the ways that God is making everything beautiful around you, including you. And we will see you next time.