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The most uncensored conversations about censorable things coming out from the much-censored country of Singapore. Hosted by Haresh & Terence from the comedy house Ministry of Funny.
00:00:01:16 - 00:00:03:06
Speaker 1
What's up everybody?
00:00:03:06 - 00:00:05:20
Speaker 2
Welcome to another episode of Yalla.
00:00:05:21 - 00:00:06:13
Speaker 3
Bubba, Bubba.
00:00:06:16 - 00:00:10:23
Speaker 2
Your thrice weekly podcast where we talk about the hottest news with a touch of what turns.
00:00:10:24 - 00:00:12:02
Speaker 3
Good old humor.
00:00:12:03 - 00:00:25:08
Speaker 2
Good old humor, man. Yeah. Today's special episode. We have a special guests, in front of us. Who? I mean, we've seen our content quite a bit. Yeah. She she's done content about, you know, leadership, about communications. Yeah, about speeches in parliament.
00:00:25:09 - 00:00:28:04
Speaker 3
What a gift to have on yellow button.
00:00:28:06 - 00:00:28:20
Speaker 1
To give.
00:00:28:20 - 00:00:42:14
Speaker 2
The AI. And not all gifts, Steve, wherever you go. Yeah, yeah, but it is a gift to have, Krystal Lim with us. She's, leadership consultant, entrepreneur and author, amongst many other things. So, welcome to yellow.
00:00:42:19 - 00:00:48:06
Speaker 1
Thank you. I'm super psyched. I'm a huge fan. And, yeah. You know, I've been looking forward to this for ages.
00:00:48:12 - 00:01:09:17
Speaker 3
But it's not just, I mean, during the journey, I think a lot of people also came across your content, right? Because you were doing a lot of stuff, relating around communications of the politicians. Right. Like, for those, you know, about listeners who maybe haven't encountered your, know, stuff before, like, what is your spiel in terms of the content that you put out there?
00:01:09:20 - 00:01:32:14
Speaker 1
Oh, I think I'm actually quite random, but there is a common thread because, I'm very much about authenticity, about communicating with authenticity. I feel like, you know, leaders, who, you know, that's my bread and butter. Like, as a leadership consultant, I do training for companies, all this kind of stuff. I guess leaders have a higher sort of bar to cross when it comes to communication.
00:01:32:14 - 00:01:51:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think that there's a lot of ways in which our leaders can improve in terms of how they communicate more empathy, more congruent. And we can get into all of that stuff. So at the same time, it's not easy to find like examples of people breaking down public speaking with like, Asians. Yeah. Especially Singaporeans. Yeah.
00:01:51:04 - 00:02:06:11
Speaker 1
You know, there's a lot of content out there with like us people and everything. But I just started thinking like, hey, it would be so interesting if we take what's going on in, you know, our, backyard and actually use that as an example to show best practices. Yeah.
00:02:06:12 - 00:02:12:02
Speaker 2
But, well, what's so different about, Singaporean leaders compared to other leaders that you have worked with or trained.
00:02:12:06 - 00:02:37:08
Speaker 1
This a lot? Oh my God. Okay. Firstly, a lot of our Singaporean leaders come from public service background, right. So public service or military background. And there's that great fear of individuation. Yeah. That it's kind of like beaten out of them when they're in the public sector. So you know when I was hired recently to buy an arm of public service to, you know, talk about personal branding or communication, there was always this like comment that comes.
00:02:37:08 - 00:02:55:14
Speaker 1
I was like, hello, we are public servants. You know, we are you know, we are. We are supposed to mold ourselves into whatever. If you send me here and I'm like this, you send me down like I'm not supposed to, like, have a personality or, you know, make it about myself. So the a lot of them view like communication as a, as something like it's a bit awkward.
00:02:55:14 - 00:02:58:18
Speaker 1
It's like some unsightly fashion accessory. Somebody is thrust upon me.
00:02:58:22 - 00:03:03:16
Speaker 2
This is what aspect of communication, the ability to communicate or to communicate in a certain way.
00:03:03:18 - 00:03:28:03
Speaker 1
The it's like the ability to put forward an opinion. And I think in the age of AI, where all this aggregated stuff can be done by, I can give you a very good summary of like, oh, it could be this, but could be that or aggregate whatever. I think, you know, that's where our, leaders tend to start playing it very safe and they're not really standing for anything.
00:03:28:05 - 00:03:50:07
Speaker 1
And then there's also the problem of lack of empathy. So, I guess that's the second thing, lack of empathy. So sometimes when they are apologizing or about something, they don't actually sound very authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Like the I did a viral reel about the and UCL sort of like book burning, the apology that, you know, got people very upset because it didn't look like an apology.
00:03:50:07 - 00:04:21:03
Speaker 1
Right. There's a third thing which is congruence. Now congruence is actually if you say something you got a vibe that thing. Right. So like if for example, like if I say I'm really sorry I mocked up, you know, I stuffed it up. You got to look like it. You got to look like you mean it. But a lot of times when like the A leader say something, the mouse could be smirking or they could be like doing some sort of incongruent something that energetically doesn't vibe with what they are seeing.
00:04:21:09 - 00:04:37:15
Speaker 1
And the humans are bullshit detectors. They're so good at this. They're like, you know, you know, you're so you sound fake and whatever. A lot of that is like vitriol from people. No doubt there will always be like anger from people. But I think that there's also that anger that comes out when they feel you're not being real.
00:04:37:17 - 00:04:44:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I feel like that's, that's the thing we're missing that. Yeah. So I mean there's a lot of factors in that
00:04:44:13 - 00:04:50:08
Speaker 2
But, but is that is based on the assumption that they are really sorry when they're apologizing.
00:04:50:10 - 00:04:52:21
Speaker 1
Which is a big something. Yeah. That is true. That is.
00:04:52:21 - 00:05:15:03
Speaker 2
So how do you then square it. Because honestly, the more I see, and and, you know, you coach leaders of all sorts, you have public figure leaders, like, you know, parliamentarians, but you also have leaders who walk behind closed doors of a company. Yeah. And I would imagine there are big differences, right? Because the more I look at leaders in the public eye, whenever they see stuff, I'm like, are you really thinking that?
00:05:15:08 - 00:05:20:18
Speaker 2
And then if they do feel congruent, I'm thinking like, are you just a good actor? You know? Yeah, you sweat it.
00:05:20:22 - 00:05:40:20
Speaker 1
You know what I always teach? Like, you know, the worst apology is like, I'm really sorry you felt that way. That's like a freaking worst. It's like basically saying that that's your issue. Right. You were a sensitive little flower that felt that way. And I'm so sorry. That's like the worst. But like a really good apology actually has four components.
00:05:40:22 - 00:06:01:23
Speaker 1
Like the first one is like, I am really sorry that you then you go on to describe exactly what happened in specificity. So just say I'm sorry that happened. What is that? Yeah. It's not satisfying. You know, if you need to describe it to a level of detail where I, as the listener, feel satisfied that you actually know what the hell it is you're apologizing for.
00:06:01:23 - 00:06:22:24
Speaker 1
So there's the first thing, the description. The second thing is like, you know, I know that it caused you suffering. I paraphrase. Yeah. So then you go on to describe the kind of suffering it caused you. I know that when this thing happened, it caused suffering. In this way, you are unable to do this. It made you whatever this it caused this inconvenience, whatever.
00:06:22:24 - 00:06:43:18
Speaker 1
You must be able to describe the suffering to the extent that the sufferer feels that they don't need to keep on telling you how much they suffered because you got it. Yeah, you were able to describe it to me. So then the third part is that, you know, I'm really sorry. In future, this is what I commit to change because it's not an apology unless it's changed.
00:06:43:20 - 00:07:02:19
Speaker 1
If you were already sorry, you would change. Yeah. So how the hell are you going to change so that it doesn't happen again? And then the fourth part, which is a bit contentious, but classically the fourth part is will you forgive me? Or can you find it in your heart to be open minded or to give me another chance?
00:07:02:19 - 00:07:23:05
Speaker 1
It is that kind of like one down, like I'm putting myself in that vulnerable position to say, I'm really sorry and like that. Will you forgive me? And it is not easy. I did this once and, in a offsite, I was running for a multinational biopharma company where we had the entire senior leadership team of this global company come together in Madrid.
00:07:23:07 - 00:07:47:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, I was, I was facilitate this exercise where the president of this company, you were supposed to, like, give him some negative feedback, some constructive feedback. So one after another, each of the SLT was supposed to sit across this president and tell him, like, bad things are not good things. So. But then this, this president had a bunch of, like, guys that were very suck up, like, you know, kind of liked with him.
00:07:47:13 - 00:07:58:19
Speaker 1
So then they came up and then they were instead of giving negative feedback, they were like, bro, you know, you're so good. You're the best leader a lot, a lot. And then I were like, cut them off and I'll be like, that's not the exercise. You need to do it again and you need to do it, blah, blah, blah.
00:07:58:23 - 00:08:16:14
Speaker 1
So then the second or third time I did it, one of them actually got very angry with me. And in front of the entire city said, you know, I really have a problem with you. And I was like, okay, tell me. And he's like, you know, this leader is like a father to me. And he meant so much and all I wanted to do was to express my gratitude to him.
00:08:16:14 - 00:08:36:05
Speaker 1
But you cut me off and you made me feel bad. And I felt a shame that humiliated this. The Brazilian guys, you know? Yeah. Anyway, so in that moment, then what do you do? Because the thing is that, look, I have a responsibility as a facilitator to, you know, hold the space and do the exercises. But also he has a point that he's upset and that point can tend to a power struggle.
00:08:36:05 - 00:08:56:08
Speaker 1
So I actually said to him, like, look, you know, Mr. X, thank you so much for sharing that with me. You know, I really appreciate when people take the time to educate me on this. Yeah. You know, and I said, number one, I can see that what it what I did was wrong for you. I thought it was right for the group.
00:08:56:10 - 00:09:14:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, but it was wrong for you. Yeah. That's a very important point. And I said you know I can see that when I said those words and I cut you off without enough skill, it caused you to lose. You know, you said you went into shame. I can see that if I were you, I would also find it shameful.
00:09:14:09 - 00:09:37:05
Speaker 1
If I were you, I would feel that way, too. And it's that part. It's like, you know, that I have to endeavor to change that. So I say, you know what? From now on, my promise to you is that when I'm doing this exercise, if we set it up in this way and you feel that you have got an issue with this, you know, if you tell me that this exercise is, you know, not the kind of thing that you want to do, I commit to let's talk about it before we get into it, you know, and then the fourth part was very important.
00:09:37:05 - 00:09:56:07
Speaker 1
I looked at him and I said, Will you forgive me? And it was with utmost sincerity. Will you forgive me? It's not bullshit. I really wanted his forgiveness, even though he was kind of in my eyes, 60% wrong live. He is a blood guy. He wasn't getting it. But you know, the thing is that you have to be sincere as well.
00:09:56:09 - 00:10:17:17
Speaker 1
And my therapist always said to me, like, you know, with, forgiveness and all this kind of stuff, right? It's not like binary. It's not 0 or 1. It's not like 100% or zero, you know? So, like there's a nuance to it. Yeah. Yeah. You have to find that intersection of what can you really empathize with with the other person and then build on that shit.
00:10:17:17 - 00:10:19:16
Speaker 1
Intersectionality.
00:10:19:18 - 00:10:42:02
Speaker 3
So yeah, I mean, looking at your background in everything, right? Yeah. You studied law, I think. Then you became an investment banker and all that. Yeah. Well, what was it? Was that moment that. Okay, maybe communications or or teaching people how to communicate better and be better versions of themselves. When did that change or when did them, crystallize for you?
00:10:42:02 - 00:10:46:15
Speaker 3
That crystallized for you that that was your life's focus?
00:10:46:17 - 00:11:14:14
Speaker 1
Oh, God. I think it's more than communications. I think it's social. Emotional intelligence is the equalizer two of which communication and social skills fits into that and is a big part of that. I mean, okay, not to sound like a politician, you know, I was born in a HDB flat, whatever. Like, you know, but I did feel like quite an outsider when I went into investment banking.
00:11:14:16 - 00:11:37:10
Speaker 1
You know, I was born into a rental HDB flat in Little India. My parents, you know, I was the first one in my generation. In fact, I'm thinking I'm the first one in the family to go into any sort of corporate job. Nobody else around me has held a corporate job. You know, when I went into the corporate world and my first corporate job was investment banking and which, it was such a snooty thing.
00:11:37:12 - 00:12:00:16
Speaker 1
I remember of the three, sort of interns in the office, two of them came from, like, very wealthy families. And I was the outlier because I was actually hired by London through the proper intake. But the ones unofficially who get hired by Singapore office are the ones who parents got conceive in the bank. So then I got sent, you know, from global back to Singapore and like the other two are like from very posh backgrounds.
00:12:00:22 - 00:12:20:08
Speaker 1
And I remember the first day my boss sent me like, oh, so which limbs are you from? Are you the rubber limbs or the pineapple limbs or whatever? Whatever? No. Like what? What chicken rice looks. So what are you talking about? Then I realized that, you know, actually, this is a different world where people had connections, family backgrounds, and they were all very sophisticated.
00:12:20:10 - 00:12:48:05
Speaker 1
And I was like very jargon or swag to a certain way because I didn't come from that world. So I then knew that if I want to survive in this environment, I have to be like, I have to be like, like sucking up. Yeah. You know, everything, every way they behave. Seeing how these people in this world operate and investment banking is very weird because when you are put on deals from an early age, you, you could be sitting next to the CEO of a company that's going for IPO.
00:12:48:05 - 00:13:10:22
Speaker 1
You know, you could be you're in rooms with very like, senior leaders. So you have to kind of like very quickly learn how to navigate those environments. And there's no textbook. So I became a very and I've always been a good mimic. You know, like, I think comedians are very good mimics. But I think there's something about, you know, mimicking that is very interesting.
00:13:10:22 - 00:13:21:17
Speaker 1
If you really are a great mimic, it's because you are curious. Yeah. It's because you notice and you try to emulate. Yeah. And in a way that's kind of like fake it till you make it sort of thing. Yeah.
00:13:21:21 - 00:13:44:13
Speaker 3
I was a banker where you, I started my career. Yeah. And it's very true out that, that whole. Yeah. As a young person you're thrust into these boardrooms and you kind of go from 0 to 100 in terms of like being able to talk and act like them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it was but but for you, I mean the, the thing about banking like being next to elite posh kind of people.
00:13:44:16 - 00:13:59:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. That didn't really start in school because I understand you went to the some of the best schools in Singapore. So that. Right. So even in school when you are surrounded by a lot of like very elite, very smart, but also people from very good backgrounds as well.
00:13:59:16 - 00:14:27:20
Speaker 1
This is a very interesting topic. Yeah. Yesterday I, you know, okay. So, okay, I, yesterday I had held a fireside chat in my office and with my bestie, this guy called Jupiter. Jupiter. And he's a managing director, plug and play. He was also from the gifted program. We were best friends when we were 15, and he was from ACS, and I used to go take the MRT to Yishun because he lived in Yishun and I used to go to his, you know, flat downstairs and throw stones on his window.
00:14:28:01 - 00:14:47:00
Speaker 1
And then he came down to play with me and all of that. And like, you know, because he was in the gifted program, he got to go to ACS. Yeah. And our whole gang of besties back then, they came from all HDB backgrounds. They all went to ACS because I only hang up, hung out. So it's really wrong a lot, but I, I really could not stand RGS girls could not stand them.
00:14:47:04 - 00:15:16:08
Speaker 1
So when I was young, I help out with all the ACS boys in this particular class, and they were all from humble backgrounds and not like stereotypical X boys. How did they get there? Is because they were selected by the gifted program. Okay, right. So in a way, it is kind of a very kind of interesting phenomenon where you might think the gifted programs elitist, but in many ways it's not number one that is that certain meritocracy of like if you are smart IQ wise, at least doing my best, you got in regardless of your background.
00:15:16:08 - 00:15:38:04
Speaker 1
Then you went to prestigious schools because of your smarts, not because you know who your parents were or anything. Secondly, is not elitist program. It is a special needs a program. And by that I mean that, during my time, it was a very small intake, 0.25. So, 40 girls, 40 boys out of 40,000 kids, very, very small intake.
00:15:38:06 - 00:16:02:13
Speaker 1
And, if you look at intelligence, right, it's not like a straight line where, on one side, head of the one extreme, there is like learning disabilities, and the other end is like, what? The super smart is actually a circle where both ends join together because there is a sweet spot of intelligence, which is around, I believe, like I know about 125 or so where that sweet spot you are smart enough to do anything.
00:16:02:13 - 00:16:21:17
Speaker 1
You can go to Harvard, you can be a doctor, you can be a lawyer. But like once you get to smart inverted commas in terms of IQ, sometimes it coincides with a lot of different issues. Like for instance, ADHD or autism, you know, depression. And so it is a gifted kids do have higher levels of this.
00:16:21:19 - 00:16:36:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Very, very disruptive. My mom used to cane me all the time, and she used to like, you know, now we have Iran preemptive strike. My mom used to do preemptive caning. Like I hadn't done anything wrong. You should just, like, you know, give me ten of the best. Because she knew I was going to be naughty.
00:16:36:18 - 00:17:00:06
Speaker 1
So, you know, in a normal environment, you know, the sort of gifted kids that I grew up with, during my time, we wouldn't really have survived. I feel a lot of us wouldn't have survived because it was really kind of a special needs program where if gifted kids, at least the ones that I know were not given the kind of attention or like the kind of psychological safety amongst their own.
00:17:00:09 - 00:17:27:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. And in a small group class, because I was classes were 16 to 20 something packs, we could be extremely destructive. In school, we had people who short circuited the chemistry that put the white, wire in their short circuit, that we had a guy that was brilliant. This guy somehow managed to see people's parents, Mercedes keys, and managed to configure a skeleton key that will unlock Mercedes cars, I believe is legendary at the time.
00:17:27:23 - 00:17:51:02
Speaker 1
Like all kinds of like, you know, the thing that the is like, you're so smart, you either going to be a crook or you're going to be something, you know, like, how does the education system actually deal with these? You know, types of individuals who don't fit in. But, unfortunately tuition industry came in. Yeah. And then it starts, then people start seeing giftedness as an elitist thing where it's a special needs thing to be like buff light or something.
00:17:51:02 - 00:17:55:06
Speaker 2
But but even before that, can you blame people for seeing it as an elitist thing because you just.
00:17:55:06 - 00:17:55:22
Speaker 1
Mentioned, yeah.
00:17:55:24 - 00:18:14:07
Speaker 2
Smaller class sizes. Yes. Because I mean, the school I went to there were, there was the right it was the classes. And I mean, they did have certain things that we didn't have. Yes. And when you hear things that, okay, they get access to more resources, they are smarter. To me, that's like, okay, there's definitely elite, there's elitism there.
00:18:14:07 - 00:18:14:17
Speaker 2
So then.
00:18:14:22 - 00:18:15:06
Speaker 1
The hell.
00:18:15:09 - 00:18:24:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh. So then who's, this this, you know, dilemma between. Okay, it's it shouldn't be seen as elitist is you seen the special needs, then how how to navigate that.
00:18:24:22 - 00:18:36:22
Speaker 1
Is very difficult. As a gifted child like you know, I have never talked about being gifted until last year when they announced they were scrubbing the program. Because the first rule of being a GP is that you don't talk about the GP.
00:18:36:22 - 00:18:37:23
Speaker 2
And why not?
00:18:38:00 - 00:18:58:02
Speaker 1
Because it's like, you know, you given this message that people will hate you. People hate you for existing, like because they feel already like, oh, you think you're superior. I remember being like three years old and I don't know how to read. I won and I was three years old. Sitting outside in castle's gym was a gymnasium sort of place, and the waiting room was waiting.
00:18:58:08 - 00:19:23:17
Speaker 1
And I was reading this Enid Blyton book like I was quite this woman came up to me and she, like, ripped it out of my hands, this mother. And she said to me, you are pretending. And I'm like, no, I'm just reading. And she's like, okay, then tell me, what does it say? In page 254, I was like, woman, I'm not a psychic, you know, like, you know, but somehow you're given this message from young that your so-called intelligence or gifts triggers people, and therefore we don't talk about it.
00:19:23:17 - 00:19:44:20
Speaker 1
And I find it very, very ludicrous to see like, people posting like, oh, I came from Argos or I came from X or whatever it is, because like, you know, it is like so many multiples, harder to be in a gifted stream. But if you are in a gifted stream, you do not talk about it, because there is a lot of this self-imposed imposter syndrome, which is something that gifted kids struggle a lot with.
00:19:44:22 - 00:19:53:10
Speaker 1
Imagine if you are told from young that you are super smart. Then every time you feel anything, then like, shit, man, I'm like, there's a mistake.
00:19:53:10 - 00:19:59:13
Speaker 2
You would, you would. You prefer to be told you're super smart and have the stresses along with that? Your super stupid and have you for.
00:19:59:13 - 00:20:18:16
Speaker 1
Not to be taught that smarts is actually, you know, Carol Dweck, who's a professor of of mindset. She said that the you know, how we praise kids should be on effort to be like, look, oh, Terrance, you said that you worked on this for three hours. I'm so impressed by your dedication. Tell me, how do you actually put you know, how did you manage to focus on this a lot?
00:20:18:18 - 00:20:37:07
Speaker 1
Is it a lot, Terrance? I mean, look at what you're doing. They're not that good, boy. Or smarter. You know, that kind of is very reductive. And I also don't believe that cognitive intelligence is everything. There's all kinds of different kinds of intelligence. Yeah, but like, you know, if you like, it's that famous quote, right? If you judge a fish on how well it claims to treat and if everything is stupid.
00:20:37:09 - 00:20:51:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. But we over focus on this cognitive intelligence piece, which is. Yeah, there's a certain type of people who are good at this. Yeah, but but then how about emotional intelligence? Yeah. How about creativity and all of this other stuff.
00:20:51:08 - 00:21:16:04
Speaker 3
So it isn't I mean I do get that. So I'm just trying to understand like then the idea of labeling a group of people as gifted, you know, the word gift itself is yeah, there's a positive connotation to it. Yes. It also kind of makes me I'm by default, everyone else is non gifted. Okay. So there is I mean, I, I definitely commiserate with, you know, feeling like outsider and everything like that.
00:21:16:10 - 00:21:43:14
Speaker 3
But the as a society, don't you feel like that is a problem when we identify one, a group of people as special because of a test they took at nine years old, you know, versus like, giving more resources all this broadly, more broadly, distributing the this learning resources to everyone and trying to it'll be a bit more fat everyone and not and not like label one group and give them the pressure of being the smart ones.
00:21:43:20 - 00:22:03:14
Speaker 1
I think the labeling is definitely an issue. Yeah. But I think it does zoom out a little bit. There is that whole thing where I think the root cause is this scarcity mindset in, in other words, Gazoo ism, FOMO. All of this is really like the fear that there is not enough in this world is a mindset.
00:22:03:14 - 00:22:36:11
Speaker 1
There's not enough this ad well, and therefore I need to my kids need to get ahead. I need them to get ahead. I need everybody to realize they are smart. And it comes out of this fear that, you know, otherwise we cannot survive. So there's a deeper issue there because like, no matter what we call it, to some extent people will still find ways to like, you know, try to have this arms race to make sure my kids are better or whatever it is, unless we actually address this at the core, like, and there's many, many things that go into why do we as Singaporeans have such a scarcity mindset?
00:22:36:13 - 00:22:55:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Has it is it something that's actually there's factors like we are a small island surrounded by that. Yes. That breed scarcity mindset. Is it like the decades of conditioning from Lee Kuan Yew? Is time like, you know, if you don't survive, it will be made in other countries. And I know, like whatever, there's all that fixed mindset conditioning, there's all that fear, you know, all of that in the system.
00:22:55:08 - 00:22:58:23
Speaker 2
So do you think that's that's unjustifiable or unwarranted?
00:22:59:00 - 00:23:27:19
Speaker 1
I think that it is something that's perfectly understandable. And however, we do have to realize that what worked for, different for the older generation was what worked for a simpler time. Oftentimes have people that say, Lee Kuan Yew, you know, like fixed mindset messaging. Fear was wrong. We went from that world averse. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, but during those days we have Ex Machina and we had we did not have smartphones when when work stopped, work stopped.
00:23:27:21 - 00:23:56:05
Speaker 1
People had a life. Okay. And those days where life was simpler, we didn't have so many mental health issues. Right now, we have a generation of kids that are at the cognitive brink, on the edge of mentally being able to function or not. We have a lot of cognitively damaging weapons of mass destruction mobile phones, TikTok, you know, all these expectations, every single performative element of your life, you know, documented everything.
00:23:56:05 - 00:24:14:22
Speaker 1
There's inspired depression. Self-harm is going through the roof. Yeah. Now, if you have a population that's already at the edge, you see, if you still want to motivate them through fear and true scarcity, it will push them over the edge. If you have a legit population that will, you know, times, you know, everyone needs a little bit of backup.
00:24:14:22 - 00:24:37:19
Speaker 1
You know, a lot of mothers wake up and smell the coffee. You know, we need we need to wake up like, yes, you push them, you push them, they'll be fine. They can take it. But what I'm seeing as an education insider who has spent, you know, a number of years teaching our youth and listening to our youth confide in me their fears, their problems, their anxieties, seeing double digit spikes in self-harm, depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation.
00:24:37:19 - 00:24:57:09
Speaker 1
Every single year we are dealing with a generation that cannot take it. And you might say, wow, they're pussies or their strawberry generation, all that, but I'm just telling you how it is. You know, it is this way. Like, and we need more empathy. Like we you, me, you know, and we grew up in the best freaking generation men.
00:24:57:09 - 00:25:14:02
Speaker 1
We got to all kinds of shit. Nobody was there to document it there. We had a very free existence. We do not actually know what life is like. You grow up being a raging, hormone filled 15 year old, having every aspect of our life scrutinized. You know, in social media and all of that.
00:25:14:04 - 00:25:34:01
Speaker 3
So that's why I kind of like, wanted to ask because you, you deal with very capable, high IQ people in your day to day, and I corporate, you know, corporate CEOs and all. But some of them, I'm sure, you see, like, where did your emotional quotient, your IQ and your social skills and all that? Where did it get stunted along the way?
00:25:34:06 - 00:25:54:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. And one of the things you you say about GPS is that it it's, creates a safe space, you know, I mean, I think the words use a tribe of neurodivergent communicator. Yeah, but doesn't it also kind of create a bubble where these people who are told that they are very smart, everything don't have to learn how to socially interact with people outside of that bubble.
00:25:54:16 - 00:26:06:00
Speaker 3
And they go through life thinking that I'm smarter than everyone out there. And that's why you all don't understand me. Yeah, and then we'll end up reading more. More like stratification in society.
00:26:06:03 - 00:26:27:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So because this can be done, I definitely think that we cannot live in a bubble. And, however, it doesn't mean that every class it the, the inclusion or the mixing has to be done in that classroom setting. So for example, when I was younger, the one of the best experiences of my schooling years was obs, about how about school?
00:26:27:23 - 00:26:53:14
Speaker 1
And we our class was tight. Well, we were tight with, neighborhood school, something similar to junket Changi, but like, we know in the gifted program who hardly have Malay kids. Really, I think there was like 1 or 2, maybe like three in goals in our whole batch or something. But then we were tight. These neighborhood schools, suddenly we have like, wow, so many.
00:26:53:16 - 00:27:11:05
Speaker 1
But Malay and Indian kids there and then they all speak different new way. But it was the best time. There was so smart in ways that we were not smart at all. Like we had to do things like, you know, drafting set up, then that kind of stuff. Right? And we really saw stupid. Like, we are very stupid in certain regards.
00:27:11:05 - 00:27:46:10
Speaker 1
And they're extremely they are much more competent at us in other regards. And they were so welcoming. We thought that like, they would be like, oh shit, this bunch of snobby, these whatever they were not, they were like the nicest down to earth people and that kind of like mixing I thought was really, really useful. Yeah. And I feel like that that kind of social interaction can come in other ways, because when we talk about learning as a very specific thing, if you are learning, Max, how do you learn maths, for example, in a way like maybe that's not the best objective in that context to then make your maths class, you know that up
00:27:46:10 - 00:27:49:13
Speaker 1
the priorities of the learning outcomes.
00:27:49:13 - 00:28:05:07
Speaker 2
But but then, so then, wouldn't it be a good thing? The new approach, where there are certain centers where GPS, students all all like gifted students come together to learn because through that there will be some a bit more social lubrication as opposed to having it the way it cut it previously was.
00:28:05:08 - 00:28:38:23
Speaker 1
Well, I think practically I think the intention could be good, but practically it feels like we're being punished. We're being penalized for doing by doing extra classes outside of extreme, extremely already cognitively demanding workload. You still have to travel somewhere, which is the travel time, and then you have to do the special classes. And then, let's face it, a couple of hours a week is not the same as being in a container where you are constantly having these conversations, relationships, you know, out of class interactions or whatever, you know, with, with a bunch of people.
00:28:38:23 - 00:28:58:06
Speaker 1
And okay, so one specific example, at the start of every term, we used to rearrange our desks in the gifted classroom and, in groups because, like, we have a lot of space now. Sorry, no offense. As compared to express classrooms, they're all like in role as right. But the gifted classes, they we could actually make little groups.
00:28:58:11 - 00:29:17:15
Speaker 1
So we would sit in little groups of 4 or 5. And every, every time we would come up with themes what to name the groups. So one time we were like Saturn, Mars, Venus, whatever. The next time it could be something else like. But when you sit in groups with kids for the entire term, they are like, it's a simulation of what happens in the workplace.
00:29:17:17 - 00:29:47:23
Speaker 1
You have colleagues, you have to do projects together. There'll be different characters that you have to deal with. The irritating one, the one that is the teacher's pet. There's the one that claims credit for your work. The one that you know didn't do anything. Whatever it is like actually a completely different experience of socialization and like, you know, a very interesting way of, of, of education in which, like, you know, you have to learn collaboration, you have to learn all these social emotional intelligence skills, which are very important because many gifted kids are also kind of autistic.
00:29:48:00 - 00:30:00:11
Speaker 1
Many of them start off from a low place when it comes to EQ. Yeah, because sometimes, you know, God gives you one hand and takes away the other hand. So, you know, we actually need it to do to to learn all of this social emotional intelligence very, very early.
00:30:00:11 - 00:30:23:15
Speaker 3
So you saying that it's, it, I mean, the, the gifted program gave the, you know, these, these kids a chance to in a safe space, still learn those social skills required to work in, you know, in the workplace and work with people of different abilities and all that. Yeah. And, without the judgment, the judgment of, like, what it is outside the gifted program of eight people.
00:30:23:15 - 00:30:26:07
Speaker 3
Why can you why can't you just speak up like when you talk properly and all that, though.
00:30:26:10 - 00:30:49:22
Speaker 1
I think it also is very challenging to have a gifted kid in, in a normal class, because actually is quite harmful for the so called like, I how do I say this? I was a nightmare before I went to the gifted program. Absolute nightmare. Yeah. Like I was disruptive in every single class. I used to argue with teachers, I used to my mum would be called to school like she would cry all the time.
00:30:49:22 - 00:31:07:05
Speaker 1
And like, I would always be told off for disrupting and, like, you know, the study to study something. Other girls in the class. Yeah, but I'm actually being the disruption because a teacher couldn't handle. So she would be spending most of the time scolding me. Yeah. Punishing me, throwing my things out of the class, whatever. And then the rest of the classroom.
00:31:07:05 - 00:31:27:11
Speaker 1
How they are unable to cope because you got one idiot me who's causing all these problems. But then when I went to the gifted stream, I realized that, wow, a lot of people like me and men, we're all asking questions. We all the whatever. The teachers are more trying to deal with our disruptive nature. The classrooms are smaller, there's like sometimes we self handle, you know, because one person was eating, then the other.
00:31:27:17 - 00:31:32:06
Speaker 1
My other classmates will argue with me or scold me or whatever it is. So like it's different.
00:31:32:08 - 00:31:45:02
Speaker 2
But do you remember, like what was the impetus to that that made you so restless in those classrooms? Was it because your questions were not being answered or things were going too slowly, or what I know you were young, but do you recall?
00:31:45:02 - 00:32:08:23
Speaker 1
It's a nature of environment and also, temperament, I think gifted kids. Well, at least in my batch, it was, you know, a certain, cutoff, a certain IQ cutoff, like I said, like, you know, the higher the IQ gets, the more propensity it is to be conflated. Like what we call twice exceptional, conflated with learning disabilities.
00:32:09:03 - 00:32:26:24
Speaker 1
So, like, super high IQ people, you know, sometimes they'll be like, also ADHD or like, you know, have OCD or like autism, right? So that means that they literally cannot sit still or they have to pace around or they say things that sometimes, you know, they might blurt out things or they might shout certain things that are inappropriate or whatever.
00:32:27:05 - 00:32:38:13
Speaker 1
And in normal classrooms, do it more neuro conformist people. They'll be like, oh, this person social, you know? But then in the like that kind of container, people are just like, oh yeah, you know, that's Krystal and she's she's zany.
00:32:38:18 - 00:32:56:22
Speaker 2
And I mean, the background to IQ like, I mean, I'm not the most familiar with the scientific aspect of it, but, is there is it it's something that you are born with, like it doesn't increase over time. That is it. Is it trainable to a certain extent. And I'm talking pure IQ, not just, okay, tenure series kind of thing.
00:32:56:24 - 00:33:20:11
Speaker 1
You know, I am also not an expert in this, as an academic in this regard, but I would say that it is much more possible to train grades, in my opinion, than IQ, and grades are not correlated to IQ whatsoever. Well, I mean, somewhat, but they're not really. Grades are correlated with obedience and discipline and IQ is quite, you know, separate from that.
00:33:20:13 - 00:33:44:17
Speaker 1
So people who are high IQ might be extremely low scoring in school, which I was, I was always, you know, getting 20, 50, 40, you know, at the onset getting expelled from RGS, you know. But like so there is a certain element of definitely temperament there is that, you know, but having said that, what is the kind of like, where are you?
00:33:44:19 - 00:33:47:03
Speaker 1
What do you want to understand from asking this question?
00:33:47:04 - 00:34:01:09
Speaker 2
Because, I mean, I'm just wondering, like, let's say, you know, you mentioned that you had more space so you could reorganize the data, right? Yeah. Do you think there could be positive outcomes if, let's say, even the express non gifted classes? Oh 100 given access to do things, I think.
00:34:01:09 - 00:34:23:23
Speaker 1
They totally should. I think it's unfair that only we had those types of resources. I, you know, but I feel that rather than taking it away for us, why not like get, you know, try to use this cutting edge technology or whatever that we know works, right and actually get more people to benefit from it. So I definitely do believe that we should have smaller classrooms in general.
00:34:24:00 - 00:34:30:00
Speaker 1
In the developed country, you know, 3040 is way too big. Yeah, yeah.
00:34:30:02 - 00:35:01:01
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I do see what you're describing as, a very intense microcosm of the experience of going to Raffles Institution, where, you know, day in, day out, even though the whole school had told you all the future leaders of Singapore. Yeah. Future leaders in Singapore, usually in Singapore, even even though, I mean, I was also the guy who was a lot of times, you know, got scolded by for asking questions of the teacher and stuff like that, but when I go for assembly, I'm told, you know, future leaders, Singapore.
00:35:01:03 - 00:35:21:18
Speaker 3
But now as I age and get older, they realize, like, oh, being in that bubble kind of I mean, in some ways it helped me back from seeing they why why is in our society, why isn't everyone getting more of those opportunities that I didn't? And was it a fair thing that, you know, because my grades were good?
00:35:21:18 - 00:35:52:06
Speaker 3
That's why I got this, this rigorous training and academics. All right. So, yeah, that's why I'm trying to understand, like, in terms of, like being in the gifted program and having access to more resources and being in a safe space where you can express yourself freely. How is that different from, you know, when people criticize you, like people who go to rebel for being in this small group of elite people who have access to resources, and because we are smarter all we have better grades that everyone else not like.
00:35:52:06 - 00:35:54:13
Speaker 3
What's the yeah, the differences between the two.
00:35:54:15 - 00:36:12:01
Speaker 1
I think coming back to it, like life is unfair. There's like whether, you know, it was the luck of the draw or whatever. We all get blessed with different genes and stuff like that. But I mean, coming back to the start, like I she would argue that being gifted is much more meritocratic in my time than it than going to Rolex.
00:36:12:03 - 00:36:36:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Because like, you know, it was not based on your ability to be able to afford tuition. We didn't have tuition in that time. It was just like, you know, if you had potential intellectually, whatever your background or you know, a of preparation, you know. So it was classist in my day life. Then suddenly it became like a classist thing because people can afford to give up tuition and all of that kind of stuff.
00:36:37:00 - 00:37:04:23
Speaker 1
So like, I mean, yeah, but I'm zooming out a little bit. Life is unfair. And we all have a different sort of stacked talent stack. And and I do believe that if we do have, more resources, we should also have more responsibility. So, you know, I feel very strongly about, like, making an impact, you know, helping others, you know, in my, in the work that I do, etc..
00:37:04:23 - 00:37:32:04
Speaker 1
And I think that, you know, if we look at research on gifted kids, they actually have an extremely strong sense of ethics and social justice, strangely enough, like, and these are traditional, gifted, longitudinal studies, I feel that, the gift that kids traditionally have a keen sense of social inequality and social causes. In my class, I remember in primary, for somebody went to pass a Save the Whales poster at the back of class.
00:37:32:07 - 00:37:44:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then like, there was another person that started some kind of cause about like, don't eat shark's fin or whatever. There was always this kind of work stuff going on. And like, I never heard of this kind of work stuff before. I came to the program to.
00:37:44:10 - 00:37:45:04
Speaker 3
Where she is. Yeah.
00:37:45:09 - 00:38:15:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. So so then I mean, you know, going back to what you were saying early on about how you find that Singapore leaders, they, they there's one thing about, the individuality being beaten out of them, right? Yeah. So, you know, interesting, like when you're talking about how when you're young, especially in a gifted program, it's good to have a safe space because, like, the marginal benefit you can get from that is better than, you know, having to spend travel time all, going to other centralized places.
00:38:15:15 - 00:38:32:19
Speaker 2
But when it comes to, like, that whole part of civil servitude where when certain leaders come through this bubble, you can see some, some gaps. So then would you also say that there is a benefit of the civil service being in this bubble, because it's part of the.
00:38:32:21 - 00:38:34:05
Speaker 1
You lost me, you know, so.
00:38:34:08 - 00:38:39:16
Speaker 2
So when you're young, you're saying there's some benefit to being in this, this bubble that caters the best to the people within it?
00:38:39:22 - 00:38:41:21
Speaker 1
Not really a bubble, but it's like, you.
00:38:41:21 - 00:38:44:11
Speaker 2
Know, a safe space?
00:38:44:13 - 00:38:47:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, it's about having a sense of community.
00:38:47:12 - 00:39:05:24
Speaker 2
Community, if you will. Yeah. So then, what changes, when it comes to being an adult in a place like the civil service, where there is a community, it's a safe space for them to do their work. But at the same time, I totally agree that, going through it, it kind of like, either disconnects you or beats the individuality out of you.
00:39:05:24 - 00:39:18:16
Speaker 2
Right. So how for adults, can we then address that? The fact that you like, because I know you've also said that the fire of, in the leaders is kind of missing today, right?
00:39:18:18 - 00:39:20:19
Speaker 1
Is it the authenticity?
00:39:20:19 - 00:39:21:19
Speaker 2
The authenticity?
00:39:21:21 - 00:39:32:04
Speaker 1
The, how do I put this? The. Yeah, the courage. The courage, the courage, the the the ability to be bold. Yeah. To think differently.
00:39:32:04 - 00:39:50:24
Speaker 2
Yeah. So then then sounds like that was achieved when you were young, right? By having people in the gifted, program kind of interact with each other, you know? But when it comes to, being an adult in a safe space where everybody kind of is more similar to each other than they are outside. Yeah. It results in something else.
00:39:51:00 - 00:39:53:24
Speaker 1
Now we're talking about the concept of psychological safety.
00:39:54:01 - 00:39:55:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, I guess so.
00:39:55:04 - 00:40:21:05
Speaker 1
So, a lot of research has suggested that the number one, factor in high performing teams and leaders is psychological safety. So what is psychological safety? That is the feeling that you give me that in this environment, if I take a risk instead of being punished, I'm going to be rewarded. So there's different kind of risk that we can take at work.
00:40:21:05 - 00:40:37:00
Speaker 1
Number one risk to share something personal. If I share during a team meeting like I'm going through a hard time or whatever, well people laugh and gossip afterwards in which I took a risk that I was punished. Or will people actually say that? Wow, that was so brave and give me a hug and say thanks for sharing that that, in which case I was rewarded.
00:40:37:04 - 00:40:54:01
Speaker 1
So there's four different categories. Or is a risk to share something personal, risk to learn something new or to admit a mistake and or to ask a question. That's a learning. That's a learning risk. The third category is contribution risk. Risk to try something new and to not have people say, you just be on your be great man.
00:40:54:01 - 00:41:25:09
Speaker 1
You know, step away from the controls, contribution risks. And the last one is challenger risk. Challenger risk is like if my boss say something stupid, can I disagree with my boss or will I get, you know, like, you know, penalize or for doing so now in a great in a great working culture, great leaders are able to basically hold space such that there is this magical combination of high intellectual friction and low social friction.
00:41:25:11 - 00:41:43:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. So in that in the best leaders, best performing teams like high intellectual friction means we could all disagree and all come up with very different ideas. 20 people around the table, 20 kinds of solutions rubbing up against each other and of the day. Walk out of that room. We all go out for drinks. No hard feelings.
00:41:43:11 - 00:42:04:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, that is the ideal situation. Now you talk about public service is the opposite. The opposite. We have what we call artificial harmony. Artificial harmony is low intellectual friction. 20 people around the room. One person speaks the most senior person. Everyone just agrees. Come out of the room. Everybody. Copy. Cow boo! Oh my God, you see this stupid idea?
00:42:04:17 - 00:42:28:08
Speaker 1
Then you need it. Then you have 20 conversations instead of having one clean composition. And there's a lot of social friction. So we have the opposite when it comes to public sector, predominantly because of our obsession with harmony, artificial harmony. And it's one of my things, my, my, you know, things that I would get on the pulpit and talk about because in my view, artificial harmony kills more than outright aggression.
00:42:28:10 - 00:42:47:21
Speaker 1
If you look at the conflict spectrum, you know, sorry, tell me if I'm becoming too much of a teacher. I'm seeing it as an ideal conflict point here. You know, ideal friction point. But, then on one end of the spectrum, you have outright aggression, where this is the workplace, where, you know, books are thrown, the person is damn violent, you know, toxic, like, of course, we don't want that.
00:42:48:01 - 00:43:10:09
Speaker 1
But the opposite end of the spectrum is the workplace is full of artificial harmony where nobody ever disagrees. But everything is damn unproductive. Yeah, because there is no there's no intellectual friction. And there's a lot of kind of like. And the research shows that actually artificial harmony kills more than. Oh, right. Aggression, for example. Like I got ideal a lot with the biopharma sector.
00:43:10:11 - 00:43:30:23
Speaker 1
Got called once in like the middle of the night and told that there was a solvent spill in this explosion and what, what happened and all that. And then when they trace back the root cause, you know, people died, people got injured. It was artificial. How many people saw somebody saw something going wrong, but they did not lose face, like make the boss lose face or disrupt the harmony so they don't see.
00:43:31:02 - 00:43:59:10
Speaker 1
And then in the end, people died. Oh, the same with airplane crashes where often you analyze the black boxes and you find actually the junior pilot knew there was something wrong going on, but the senior pilot was too scared, so he didn't voice more than 300 people on the plane die. Yeah. So, I mean, what what I was all very passionate about is, when, about teaching our leaders how to make it safe at workplaces, they have the psychological safety so that we can actually take more risks.
00:43:59:10 - 00:44:19:09
Speaker 1
Because Singaporeans are very timid at work. They're very fear based, in general, very conflict avoidant. It's not their fault. Why are they doing it? Cause they're smart. Because they saw other people take risks, and now we're gonna punish, penalize, whatever. And therefore they learn in this culture, we don't take risks because there's no psychological safety.
00:44:19:11 - 00:44:25:15
Speaker 2
But then is it also, consequence of this idea that we have the smartest people leading us?
00:44:25:17 - 00:44:27:07
Speaker 1
So we just.
00:44:27:09 - 00:44:36:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, that's what we also call. Right? Singapore being a pure, the most, the most, eloquent form of meritocracy, the smartest. Right. Do you.
00:44:36:04 - 00:44:37:13
Speaker 1
Believe that?
00:44:37:15 - 00:44:38:22
Speaker 2
No, I don't believe that.
00:44:38:22 - 00:44:43:17
Speaker 1
I do think and do you think we all believe that? I think every Singaporean believes that. I think there is.
00:44:43:17 - 00:45:00:06
Speaker 2
A good amount of people who believe that that is a story or a narrative that we are told. Yeah. And do you think that has a part to play in people being so compliant because they're like, okay, am I the smartest person or the the boss? The minister is definitely the smartest person. So he, he or she will be right most of the time.
00:45:00:08 - 00:45:19:18
Speaker 1
Know we come back to the topic of inclusion and diversity. So the research by far proves that the more diverse your culture, your team, your environment, the better the solutions. The final solution is going to be so much better if you have two things. Number one, diversity. Number two, psychological safety so that the diverse people can speak up.
00:45:19:24 - 00:45:37:06
Speaker 1
So in Singapore we tend to have the puzzle pieces. We'll put one Indian guy or Chinese, the one Muslim person, one whatever. Then we have it. But like we have diversity but no inclusion. And in America they kind of have inclusion but no diversity. What is the difference? In Singapore? We might have the puzzle pieces but they don't play together.
00:45:37:08 - 00:46:00:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know they are, they're not like we have so-called tolerance. But how much do Chinese people really know about Ramadan or like different races or whatever. But we yes we have that. But do we, are we really inclusive. Right. In America the opposite is like, you know, they're very warm and inclusive. If you join a team in America, they're like, hey, you know, Irish, you know, let's go out for come over to my house or barbecue, you know, that very.
00:46:00:06 - 00:46:02:08
Speaker 2
Warm is still warm after Trump. I know.
00:46:02:11 - 00:46:20:19
Speaker 1
I mean, I know in the workplace, like in the workplace context, like, but they don't have diversity. When you look up at the boards, when you look at the decision makers or white guys, you know, so they have that inclusive behaviors. But so it takes two, it takes two. So we need to have, you know, in terms of our leadership coming back.
00:46:21:00 - 00:46:49:22
Speaker 1
You know, it's also interesting because it's all interrelated. Right. So talking about a gifted program, talking about this together does a whatever generally we can all agree we need diverse perspectives. The more diverse perspectives the better it's going to be for, on a task basis. But also the more diverse is our environment is, the more we can improve our empathy and compassion, which is the other part of it, which really is missing amongst a lot of leaders.
00:46:49:24 - 00:47:11:01
Speaker 1
You know, that ability to connect with the person on the ground, because I think the biggest issue with, you know, our government is not so much that people think they're incompetent or they're not hardworking. Everybody will agree. They are damn hardworking, okay? They are pretty competent people. But why do people get so angry? And how can can, you know, is that impression that they are in their ivory towers and they don't understand.
00:47:11:01 - 00:47:13:01
Speaker 1
They don't get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:13:03 - 00:47:36:11
Speaker 3
That's but that's why they're talking about diversity. That's why I'm just trying to square that with, you know, the gift of programing and. Yeah, just basically putting this, this group of, neurodivergent together. Yes. And, you know, wanting them to be able to relate to people outside the bubble because they are also going to be high functioning leaders and politicians.
00:47:36:11 - 00:47:58:23
Speaker 3
Everything like Shannon is starting at a young age that we and we enforce this diversity in them and say, this is what reality all the world is like, and you need to interact with different people of different abilities. Yeah. Isn't it is it a good thing that we are taking that step in that direction to open it up a bit, such that they have to interact with other people of different abilities?
00:47:58:23 - 00:48:13:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. So if you look at special needs kids, for example, give the opposite extreme, like you look at somebody with severe special needs, right? You don't say, then the solution is to say no more special needs for you, and then to go for after and then to like you should integrate that. So you integrate with everybody.
00:48:13:17 - 00:48:30:21
Speaker 3
But that's of the equating, you know, gifted people to special needs or so is that for me? I honestly it for me a bit of a stretch. Not because I think special needs there's almost like a full time caretaker that needs to be there and. Right. And, you know, all the way until they're like, even into adulthood.
00:48:31:02 - 00:48:43:11
Speaker 3
But gifted people in general, they are able to take care of themselves in general. I would say that. Right. You can take them so they groom themselves. Everything. So to say that they are in the same level as special needs to me feels a bit of a stretch.
00:48:43:16 - 00:49:01:15
Speaker 1
Depends on which kind of special needs. Like, yeah, you know, like, dyslexia, ADHD or that like is not, not related to be able to is not like, you know, down syndrome or something. Right? But this is actually a very real thing when it comes to education. Yeah. Right. And I'm also in agreement with you because I think now we talk about the gift of program.
00:49:01:15 - 00:49:23:24
Speaker 1
You also you read but my experience, the experience today of the gift stream like before I was script was is quite different. Right. During my time it was so small and it was really a bunch of people that are more towards that end of that spectrum. But then it expanded until I don't know how many percent. It was like probably four, 4 to 5 times the size or if not multiples of it, I think.
00:49:24:01 - 00:49:37:20
Speaker 1
So then you're not really talking about that proportion to I think that I'm talking about you. You're not talking about the special needs proportion and talking about like what is it the functionally intelligent. Which is fair. I don't think they need it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:37:24 - 00:50:06:24
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah. But I mean like like so then give it to yourself again like so then you're a very highly functioning adult right. So when you look back like how, what was that journey like going from, like what you sit at one edge of the gifted spectrum. Yeah. When did you feel yourself. Okay. Like, like integrated or, like, less of, of outcasts than you did when you were young?
00:50:07:01 - 00:50:33:24
Speaker 1
I don't know if I've ever really felt like somebody who, like, was deeply understood by, you know, had had that sense of. But I also never really had that expectation that that is something that is very important to me to be understood by everyone into whatever. Right. Anyway, every gifted child is different as well.
00:50:33:24 - 00:50:53:18
Speaker 1
So I would also say that I'm obviously not the spokesperson for every GP kid and like many have different experiences. But I think for, for me, I come from a family of three gifted kids. My two brothers were also from the original gifted stream. And then I also have a gifted kid and my parents were also quite odd.
00:50:53:18 - 00:51:27:07
Speaker 1
I mean, the whole family is extremely odd. We all have, very strange, habits, behaviors and all of that. But I will say that, like, I am outlier, at least in my family, in terms of somebody that has seen the world for what it is. Yeah, the game and decided to engage with the game. I think in my family there are many, many bright people and they see the world in working in it's capitalist and materialistic, unfair, whatever.
00:51:27:07 - 00:51:48:16
Speaker 1
And they're like, oh, so I can see this game. I don't want to be part of it. I don't want to play the game. You played a game, you'd be high performing and everything, and it was a, but I'm not part of that game. So there was a great spiritual teacher called, Krishnamurti, and he said, it is no measure of health to be profoundly adjusted to a sick society.
00:51:48:18 - 00:52:09:14
Speaker 1
And I am profoundly well adjusted to a society. So sometimes I wanted to myself like it's a problem. Me? Yeah. You know what? The problem. You know, sensitive people who cannot function in a society. I get it. Yeah. This role is insane. Like, sometimes the rules make me want to puke. Sometimes it's kind of that. But, you know, I am a fighter.
00:52:09:16 - 00:52:28:11
Speaker 1
I am somebody that's kind of like, okay, the odds have been stacked with me since young. I've had a lot of trauma when I was young, and I realized from an early age that, you know, yeah, I got to fight, I got this. I, you know, my mum used to say this, I think, okay, my mum sees the whole world as she cleaves it into half.
00:52:28:11 - 00:52:46:08
Speaker 1
And there's only two types of people, as a survivor or not, a survivor. And mum was very, very harsh to me when I was young. She did it drown me in a swimming pool, try to teach me how to. You know, she did a lot of like very harsh things to me because I was a girl. Yeah. And my two brothers were nowhere beaten or treated as harshly as me.
00:52:46:12 - 00:53:03:18
Speaker 1
But it's very weird because I'm the one that public. Try to beat me. I would die. Whatever you tried to do to me, I was like, it's like what we call post-traumatic growth. Yeah. And then like when you look at that kind of childhood which is very traumatic and I've seen because in my line of work I deal with a lot of mental health these days.
00:53:03:18 - 00:53:30:02
Speaker 1
Right. Like oftentimes the I see with highly successful people this pattern of post-traumatic growth. There's this saying in the founder community that you want to invest in a business, you should invest in founders who have trauma. Because those are the best kind of founders. They will work their ass off. They are driven relentlessly, you know, and they have this kind of like post-traumatic effect where it really spurs them on.
00:53:30:02 - 00:53:41:14
Speaker 1
But some people can't take it. So, like, you know, my brothers, for example, did they do as well with that kind of, upbringing? You know, arguably not. Yeah. So it was very complex.
00:53:41:16 - 00:53:44:12
Speaker 3
Invested founders who are always hungry. And for.
00:53:44:14 - 00:54:08:04
Speaker 2
Extension. But but it must mean something to you, to, you know, like when you were saying you like, like to have such a big following across social media and I mean, at the most literal sense, people follow you because they appreciate your opinions. Let me share your thoughts. So was there a moment where it hit you like, oh, you know, I used to think that I never fit in, but now, actually, what I see, people seem to resonate with it.
00:54:08:07 - 00:54:24:23
Speaker 1
Oh, I guess like that was the thing. I thought I was going to get canceled when I talked about the gift up program. Yeah, because I'm very aware of all the stuff you bring out. It sounds terrible. I hate the name. If I were like from the outside looking in, I would also feel that this person who, you know, is a gift that you tell me.
00:54:24:23 - 00:54:46:23
Speaker 1
If you tell me you're going to be talking to this person immediately. I have all kinds of associations of what kind of person this is. Yeah. If I wasn't from that. Right. So like the I guess that one big moment for me was when I actually did speak about my experience on LinkedIn and then it went viral. Then Straits Times called, and it was in the newspapers, you know, and then to my surprise, I thought I was going to get canceled.
00:54:46:23 - 00:55:14:12
Speaker 1
But so many people wrote to me and sit and thanked me for helping them understand a different perspective on what a gifted kid was like. Yeah, I spoke about, you know, my mom, you know, caning me all the time because she was so upset at me. And I spoke about that experience of always feeling like a failure. And this and that and like, people were just like, wow, we always thought you guys were smug, little insufferable snobs.
00:55:14:12 - 00:55:32:07
Speaker 1
And now, like, thank you for giving me another perspective on it. And that was when I really felt very emotional about the whole thing because, like, I never knew that I can expose that side of myself and still have people accept me because like I said, since young, you're always told that this kind of thing, you don't talk about it.
00:55:32:07 - 00:55:49:21
Speaker 1
People might think you're holy and people would think that you're, you know, whatever. Trying to be brekkie or boastful. But then also it's me is authentically me, right? So like for so many decades, I hid this aspect of myself. But then I was able to like, share. It was a bit like coming out of the closet anyway. Yeah, yeah.
00:55:49:21 - 00:55:50:14
Speaker 1
So yeah.
00:55:50:14 - 00:56:10:08
Speaker 3
But what do you think is the bigger threat to Singapore's future? The class divide in society or the that our. We're not, allowing the smartest and brightest amongst us to really rise to the top if we just make everyone the same, which means which is a bigger problem.
00:56:10:08 - 00:56:35:16
Speaker 1
I don't think either of those are the bigger problem, the huge problems for us, I think like huge problems for us is like, what does success mean to us? Like, can we actually define success? What do we actually feel is success for us in Singapore? I'll be chasing, we have, we tried climbing a ladder that's propped up against a wrong wall.
00:56:35:19 - 00:56:38:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, I think these are.
00:56:38:07 - 00:56:42:23
Speaker 2
Very, I mean, as a as a society or the culture on an individual level.
00:56:43:00 - 00:57:03:12
Speaker 1
I think your your question presupposes a lot of things, which is like, oh, you know, which is, yeah, it's like it presupposes a lot of things about what success is, which is that success has to do with the education system. And now what is education? I think it's a lot of nested assumptions over us, you know, like what is the function of education?
00:57:03:12 - 00:57:05:23
Speaker 1
What is the purpose of education? What do you think it is?
00:57:06:04 - 00:57:28:21
Speaker 3
I mean, but I do think a lot about it because my kids also eat reasonably good. And I mean, the idea of public education and being able to give opportunities as much as possible to all the children for all children is a big priority. And, I suppose when you see the the my question presupposes certain things.
00:57:28:23 - 00:57:42:10
Speaker 3
But I also see the, the classism in society as a very pressing problem that people are underestimating. You know, could boil up to, to become much more contentious in the future. So that's where.
00:57:42:10 - 00:57:45:16
Speaker 1
I see classism. Or is it, economic?
00:57:45:22 - 00:57:48:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, high ex low SES and.
00:57:48:15 - 00:57:52:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, this is a different thing from classism, though, because classism is kind of an attitude.
00:57:52:14 - 00:57:53:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:53:06 - 00:58:14:16
Speaker 1
Attitude is attitude is is like, you know, snobbery at different classes that cannot transfer. But like, yeah, there is a different thing. We're talking about Gini coefficient. Then we say basically there's a structural problem. Yeah. Of you know, income not being distributed equally, but it's not necessarily a class thing. So for example like the French. Yeah. Like a very classy society.
00:58:14:18 - 00:58:22:18
Speaker 1
Right. You know, there's different Indian caste system. There's like I would say to me that's classes lot. Yeah. But I think it's a different thing from economic.
00:58:22:20 - 00:58:27:16
Speaker 3
Yeah. Then mine is more about stratification, wealth inequality, wealth inequality.
00:58:27:18 - 00:58:27:22
Speaker 1
And.
00:58:27:22 - 00:58:31:11
Speaker 3
The perception that people have. Even if the Gini coefficient is shrinking or being.
00:58:31:11 - 00:58:32:01
Speaker 1
The perception.
00:58:32:01 - 00:58:33:09
Speaker 3
That people still have, like, you know.
00:58:33:09 - 00:58:47:18
Speaker 1
I worry about that, but there's so many topics that we're talking about. Firstly, coming back to you, I think I asked you what education is about, and you kind of in a nutshell said education is about employability. And about the potential to get a like earn money is.
00:58:47:20 - 00:58:49:00
Speaker 3
About like.
00:58:49:02 - 00:58:49:16
Speaker 1
Opportunities.
00:58:49:16 - 00:58:53:21
Speaker 3
Opportunities for every every child to be able to excel to their full potential.
00:58:53:23 - 00:59:00:01
Speaker 1
So like is education about getting a good job. Not necessarily money.
00:59:00:01 - 00:59:03:08
Speaker 3
Necessarily, but about fulfilling their full potential I would say.
00:59:03:09 - 00:59:06:04
Speaker 1
What does that mean for potential? What we.
00:59:06:06 - 00:59:19:23
Speaker 3
What it's, in I mean, literally in academia or even in, like, something else, like sports or music or something like that, to be able to find out, at a young age, that those who have potential for it as well and as.
00:59:19:23 - 00:59:24:02
Speaker 1
Measured by who, by society or by the individual.
00:59:24:04 - 00:59:28:04
Speaker 3
I think it would I I'm talking about public education. So I would say society. Yeah.
00:59:28:07 - 00:59:40:02
Speaker 1
Okay. So so in your view, education is how you would measure the success of education system is whether the education system has managed to unlock the full. Yeah, utility of an individual in society.
00:59:40:04 - 00:59:42:01
Speaker 3
Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. We have to talk.
00:59:42:01 - 00:59:54:01
Speaker 1
About the individual education. That could be an argument that education is preparing that individual for living a meaningful life, however that individual defines it. Would you say that's also part of education or not?
00:59:54:03 - 01:00:00:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, I would say, yeah. You need you need the people to have, their own agency of what they want to do in their lives. Yeah.
01:00:00:01 - 01:00:22:09
Speaker 1
Because there's this, like, external ways of looking at this, and then there's internal ways of looking at this. Right. This extrinsic motivation. Yeah. And then there's intrinsic motivation where like maybe I if the power is truly in me, then I get to measure about whether I feel that like, the education system has enabled me to live a meaningful life or not.
01:00:22:11 - 01:00:39:09
Speaker 1
And that is something that I don't think we measure or pay any attention to. There's a lot of, emphasis on very kind of like been counting or like just sort of like, you know, do we have enough, you know, which I think is fair enough, but I just wanted to kind of like, you know, clarify what we're talking about.
01:00:39:10 - 01:01:08:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Now, let's say we were talking about just unlocking the potential and and Gini coefficient and social, emotional, social economic stuff. Right. Yeah. Now, another aspect of my experience is, speaking to employers. So when I was at NUS, I was kind of talking to hundreds, if not thousands of employers. Employers. Right. And, when I asked them, do you feel that the education system is adequately prepared, students for the workforce.
01:01:08:08 - 01:01:29:10
Speaker 1
Research. And my experience suggests that largely 70, 80, 90% of them will say no. It does it has not prepared the youth for the real world. So that's the employer's perspective. But then when I ask the youth, do you feel the education system has prepared you for the real world? They will also say no predominant area will say, no, it has not.
01:01:29:10 - 01:02:06:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So if education is a way of bridging, you know, from preparing, unlocking the potential and preparing you for the real world, I don't believe it's doing a great job. And you know we should really look at how we can go back to the drawing board, perhaps using AI as catalyst for all of this, and challenge our own mindsets because a lot of times in education, we've heard too many times people with calcified mindsets making the decisions to say things like, it takes a long time, takes seven years to change.
01:02:06:01 - 01:02:29:06
Speaker 1
It takes ten years. It takes whatever it is. It does it. Is I going to wait for us? Yeah. You know, does this, exceptional global conditions not necessitate, changing of our very mindset that we, we claim to be educators? Can we not change our own mindsets? Yeah, yeah. And by the way, I really object to, slogan, like, molding like this and molding this.
01:02:29:07 - 01:02:30:15
Speaker 2
Well, what is the slogan, exactly?
01:02:30:15 - 01:02:48:04
Speaker 1
Molding the future of our nation. I don't like this. What? Molding is not like putting people in a mold. It implies there is a mold. And we are just like putting people in that boat. And pressing them. And then like, okay, you go out, you mold it. Them. Yeah. It's igniting. It's igniting the the fire in each child.
01:02:48:04 - 01:03:07:15
Speaker 1
It's igniting that spark that you are put here for a reason. You are meant to do something special. We are here to figure out what that special is it? Who would have known that your contribution would be setting up a podcast. Would you have. No there's no there's no freaking mold for that. Yeah. Yeah. But you guys had that fire.
01:03:07:15 - 01:03:10:10
Speaker 1
That was that spark that was ignited through some way.
01:03:10:12 - 01:03:26:08
Speaker 2
So do you believe that everybody really has something special to do. Or is that something again that is too utopian to to perfect and it's a reality that more people should wake up to that idea. Maybe we yeah, we not all of us can be special.
01:03:26:10 - 01:03:27:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:03:27:10 - 01:03:37:18
Speaker 2
And maybe certain things that we do. Yeah, we are meant to do something that, is not going to be glamorous. Because if we are told everybody needs to be special. Yes. Isn't that also a pressure?
01:03:37:20 - 01:03:57:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. So portfolio, theory now of, which your life is a portfolio and career is one of those, slices of the pizza, if you will, some people careers just not that important. And they might feel that being a mother is very special. Yeah. And I'm going to wait that a lot. And, like, for me, a job is just a job.
01:03:57:07 - 01:04:13:02
Speaker 1
And it's just like, you know, I'm okay being a C player or whatever. And this I would say no judgment to that. But like, do you feel that you've lived a meaningful life. Yeah. And in some way your, your life, your the way you spend this time on earth, there's been something special about it. You've made an impact.
01:04:13:02 - 01:04:21:24
Speaker 1
And I would say that everyone has that capacity to lead us, make a special contribution, but not necessarily in the workplace. Okay.
01:04:22:01 - 01:04:43:08
Speaker 3
I see, so I just wanted to just round up what like I was saying earlier, like, so do you think our education policy now is, you know, is too worried about, about fixing problems of inequality and elitism society and rather than focusing on like, what's an important education system and how do we structure it.
01:04:43:12 - 01:04:53:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that our education system trains us very well to answer the questions, but we're not asking the right questions. Yeah.
01:04:53:22 - 01:04:58:04
Speaker 2
So what would I mean like you're saying like we as a society are not asking the question.
01:04:58:05 - 01:05:19:07
Speaker 1
Isn't the curriculum or the curriculum to which students are being trained. Answer these questions. The curriculum that the that that knowledge base like is the wrong knowledge base. Yeah. So like why are we treating students just like you know, do things like logs and Oxbow lake formation of Oxbow Lake and this kind of stuff.
01:05:19:07 - 01:05:20:09
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah I still remember that.
01:05:20:10 - 01:05:50:13
Speaker 1
You remember we came in I was in our hobbies. Driving, you know, is freaking like this much information. They're like, I wish I had been taught, you know, investing, you know, financial stuff, you know, social emotional intelligence, communication, all this kind of stuff. When, when I was young, I would have used it every single day. Conflict, negotiation, conflict management, all these things we use every day, we need skill sets that we are using every single day.
01:05:50:16 - 01:06:00:21
Speaker 1
Not like knowledge for knowledge sake. So, you know, I also and strategic advisor to university called Minerva University and they have a very novel.
01:06:00:21 - 01:06:02:24
Speaker 2
It's the global global thing. Is it. Yeah.
01:06:03:00 - 01:06:31:10
Speaker 1
The one where they live in different places. Yeah, yeah. So very interesting concept. I just say very quickly, that Minerva's approach is unique because they try to use the subject matter as the background, and the foreground is the critical habits and ways of thinking. Yeah. So for example, let's say, they have 130 something foundational habits or concepts of thinking.
01:06:31:10 - 01:06:54:10
Speaker 1
For example, hashtag 67 could be correlation versus causation. Yeah, that's a very important concept. Or like a concept like 50 hashtag for 54. It could be sunk cost theory okay. That is a concept. Now when you learn economics you can see, oh this is how sunk cost theory comes out in the evolution of a whatever. Or you could use it, you could see it in biology.
01:06:54:10 - 01:07:17:01
Speaker 1
You could you see it in history. You could see it, you know, in economics you could see in geography and like basically the idea is that we're using all these subject matters basically to help you develop and see patterns of thinking and to develop your faculties of critical thinking. So then afterwards, when we test you, you should be able to be somebody who thinks critically.
01:07:17:01 - 01:07:59:13
Speaker 1
You should have 132 critical thinking habits, for example, that will make you, number one are likely to be scam. Number two, you know, very good at consuming information to lead decision making, complex decision making about whatever, because we've actually given you a set of meta skills. Yeah. Okay. So I guess a long winded way of saying that, like the it's not about the subject, but, you know, we spend too much time in Singapore focusing a lot on the actual subject itself that we that doesn't have any link to a meta skill like teaching you how to think, you know, and we actually need to focus more on the meta skills so that regardless of
01:07:59:13 - 01:08:21:01
Speaker 1
how the world changes, you have learned a skill set that is never going to be obsolete. For example, once upon a time everyone's taught to go and study coding. Now doing it the most useless thing. Yeah, we spend so much time, focusing on the wrong things. But if we then said, never mind, I studied coding, but through coding, I learned how to think critically.
01:08:21:01 - 01:08:44:00
Speaker 1
I learned how to spot patterns, I learned how to do this. And that kind of skill set will never go out of fashion. I've just used that subject as the background, but what I'm doing is developing habits of mind, rigorous thinking, and I think we need to be thinking of meta skills like creativity, like compassion, like confidence, like, critical thinking.
01:08:44:02 - 01:08:51:16
Speaker 1
All of these are meta skills. Yeah, but we spend too much time worrying about small things like that. You know, will evolve.
01:08:51:16 - 01:09:09:08
Speaker 2
So. So am I right to say you're not saying don't teach about Oxbow Lake. Just used it as a background because I say that because I remember ultimately because for a long time I loved the geography. Yes. And another reason I didn't pursue it was because life sciences was coming. I wanted to get a scholarship, and. Yeah, but I will never forget Oxbow Lake because that interest.
01:09:09:11 - 01:09:11:06
Speaker 2
So. But you're not seeing. I'm not teaching about.
01:09:11:07 - 01:09:15:15
Speaker 1
I'm saying that the oxbow lake needs to be linked.
01:09:15:15 - 01:09:16:03
Speaker 2
To.
01:09:16:05 - 01:09:46:07
Speaker 1
The at the some something that is like, something that is applicable and what this is near transfer versus far transfer of knowledge. So near transfer is like when I teach you something you can only use it in the context of the oxbow lake. Right. That knowledge is useless. However, if like then you are able to apply the principles underlying Oxbow Lake which is like once upon a time there was this friction and then the water found, like the shortcut.
01:09:46:13 - 01:10:05:13
Speaker 1
And then there was this island that formed because of that. And therefore the underlying principle is that the dominant force will always like, you know, oh, comes like raise up the shortest way is always the whatever. Now you can take that oxbow lake knowledge, and you can apply it as a metaphor to many different contexts. And that is a truly intelligent person.
01:10:05:14 - 01:10:24:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. And my issue when I teach corporate training and all of that, Singaporeans are very frustrating as they are very concrete thinkers. Yeah. If I teach them some kind of concept like psychological safety, I need to tell them exactly like so that means in a meeting you say like this, in a meeting you call on this person first.
01:10:24:05 - 01:10:41:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. In a meeting you position the chairs. This way, in a meeting you structure the agenda like that. Yeah. And then they to. Oh, no, I understand this is why psychological safety is. But I cannot just give them the principle. Like, you know, psychological safety is the feeling that I can then apply how you apply like that is not a smart nation.
01:10:41:06 - 01:11:03:03
Speaker 1
And the ultimately I always say it comes down to execution comes the execution is not a policy issue. Right. You know ideas policy is like $1 execution is $1,000. Yeah. You have the best policy in the world. But at the end of the day, if our mindset sucks, if we are not smart, if the people on the ground executing, they cannot really think and they don't have the heart to serve, then we are screwed as a nation.
01:11:03:03 - 01:11:06:18
Speaker 2
So is it too late for the adults who don't have the mental skills yet?
01:11:06:21 - 01:11:10:09
Speaker 1
I don't think it's ever too late because there's this concept of neuroplasticity.
01:11:10:09 - 01:11:12:05
Speaker 2
And the skillsfuture language can oh.
01:11:12:05 - 01:11:13:14
Speaker 1
My God, don't get me started.
01:11:13:16 - 01:11:21:03
Speaker 3
Yeah, so you it's really I mean, we can have high intellectual friction. Yeah. About a GPA non-GAAP.
01:11:21:04 - 01:11:21:14
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:11:21:14 - 01:11:29:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. But I think what you're saying is that the larger picture of US education system, what is rewarding is actually a bigger worry for you now.
01:11:29:19 - 01:11:50:14
Speaker 1
Yes, exactly. I think like we're worrying a lot about format and like, the GPS is like, kind of a form. Yeah. I won't talk about a substance. The substance. The substance is what are we teaching and like how are we training our kids and like, you know, are we actually giving the optimum amount of stress? Because when you look at stress as the optimum amount, too much stress is distress and too little.
01:11:50:16 - 01:12:07:14
Speaker 1
And then there's you stress, which is optimum. And then too, too, too little stress is also very unhealthy. Yeah. Because when they go out to the real world you're going to be shocked when like it's very stressful out there. Yeah. So there needs to be some kind of optimum amount of stress and resilience and frustration tolerance. So our kids are weird.
01:12:07:15 - 01:12:29:21
Speaker 1
They are like able. We are training them to be extremely stressed out in certain areas, like whatever you are extreme amount stress contagion, tuition, very stressful. But in other ways they are not stress at all like they never have to wait. Frustration tolerance for something. So like, you know, maybe like they don't do household chores, they don't have to deal with, you know, the friction of, you know, I forgot my homework.
01:12:29:21 - 01:12:54:13
Speaker 1
The maid comes and then did the rest or whatever, like, I mean, I think is a very, big subject. And I do feel that, I think we need to, zoom out a little bit and really start from what does success look like for us as a nation? Sometimes I feel that if we don't define success clearly enough, then we're just really dealing with all the tendrils of it, and we're all arguing about different things.
01:12:54:13 - 01:13:10:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, but can we actually, like, actually make this a question of not. And then there's the whole tripartite thing where the teachers will blame the parents that parents will blame, but the government would blame parents. It has three parties. Yeah. Is this thing right? And everyone will blame. Everyone is yours. I'm just raised by the parents fault.
01:13:10:23 - 01:13:34:12
Speaker 1
No. Is the government's fault. Is that teachers faults like, okay, why don't we just like, stop finger pointing. It is not a productive use of time and actually focus more on consolidating the feedback and coordinating between the three parties and also more role modeling. What really works if you want to change anything is that we need role models from the top.
01:13:34:14 - 01:13:55:13
Speaker 1
So if we really want for instance, to have critical thinking or like if we really want that, that's to say like growth mindset every school stage want growth mindset, growth mindset. Right. And then I ask that the leaders, when was the last time you admitted a failure publicly? When was the last time you said, I tried this thing out and it didn't work out?
01:13:55:15 - 01:14:18:12
Speaker 1
And here's what I learned. When was the last time you heard a government minister say, well, this skillsfuture thing. Well, you know. Yeah, or whatever. And then like, you know, take responsibility and say, here's what we learned from it. But like, we actually if we want to change the mindset of a nation, it involves a lot of real practical role modeling from the primarily starting with the leaders.
01:14:18:14 - 01:14:41:16
Speaker 1
So that because the leaders have the responsibility to show that, hey, I'm walking the talk. Yeah. Okay. My kids don't go to tuition. I am actually whatever sharing about my failures or like this and that and alternative pathways or whatever and like then we have a sense of oh okay, let's move from cynicism to curiosity.
01:14:41:18 - 01:14:47:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. No I think I mean it'd be great if you can continue egging on our politicians to say sorry properly.
01:14:47:16 - 01:14:48:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:14:48:03 - 01:14:50:10
Speaker 3
Remember to follow the whole thing. Safe to say.
01:14:50:12 - 01:14:50:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:14:50:21 - 01:14:55:08
Speaker 2
Yeah I know what people want, you know, to live in okay. Number one okay. You did one. Well you didn't do two.
01:14:55:08 - 01:14:58:08
Speaker 3
Three. Do you still feel like.
01:14:58:10 - 01:15:14:24
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I mean, like, thanks so much for sharing. Like, what you do because, I mean, I hope, people I mean, people definitely do appreciate the content you do. And we do too. And. Yeah, I think the, the for for anyone apologize to me. Yeah. Look, you still got 3 or 4.
01:15:15:01 - 01:15:18:06
Speaker 3
You making notes to tell your wife, make.
01:15:18:08 - 01:15:19:21
Speaker 1
It give me.
01:15:19:21 - 01:15:22:17
Speaker 2
A message. Yeah. Take note.
01:15:22:21 - 01:15:27:23
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, I was this for the exam. Yeah.
01:15:28:00 - 01:15:29:16
Speaker 2
But, I mean, thanks so much for sharing.
01:15:29:16 - 01:15:46:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, because it was. I think we talk about it on the podcast, but we want to hear from the alternate perspectives. Right. Yeah. I think, like, what you said, a lot of people message you, you know, and you show the receipts, they actually support what you're saying, and that that gives me food for thought immediately. I'm like, is it me and Harish?
01:15:46:08 - 01:15:51:16
Speaker 3
Not looking at things properly? And then I think that's why it was we wanted to get you on immediately to talk about this topic.
01:15:51:16 - 01:16:15:01
Speaker 1
But this is exactly what psychological safety is, is like we like as the result of having a very robust conversation with different mindsets. Like you, you have educated me and I'm now grown and I've expanded the boundaries of my viewpoints and there's like no social friction. Like, you know, recently I did a podcast with Minister Ong, and from the outset, I criticized him for having a victim mindset.
01:16:15:03 - 01:16:30:02
Speaker 1
So it was very dicey because like I said, like, you know, describe your career. And he was like, oh, I was sent here. I send didn't he sent me here then I had no choice but to whatever. Then I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. I cannot not say something because like, literally I teach victim versus responsible language.
01:16:30:02 - 01:16:53:21
Speaker 1
And I would say, never say I had no choice. You always have your choice. So I had to and I felt like not I had to I chose to call him out. Yeah. And say like that's victim mindset language, right. And like to his credit, he kind of said, I suppose so. But then he proceeded to give a very interesting argument, which is like, isn't there this very like he didn't say Western, but you said like this kind of obsession with choice.
01:16:53:22 - 01:17:10:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I chose to is also not healthy, which is actually more of the Asian mindset is like when we focus on like this agency and choice, we also then lose out because then there's a certain elegance. I'm paraphrasing, like there's a certain merit to actually saying like, okay, this I just got to roll up my sleeves, we got to do this, blah, blah, blah.
01:17:10:24 - 01:17:28:18
Speaker 1
Then we had this very interesting conversation and like, he actually opened up my mind as a result of having that and realized. And I made me realize that, yeah, I'm actually quite, honestly, in some ways very Western and this and maybe what he's saying. So there's an element to. Yeah. Like he got sent there that he didn't waste time thinking about it, but then he said he was a happy victim.
01:17:28:18 - 01:17:50:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, I remember he said I was actually a happy victim. And I was like, well, actually, you know what? Victimizer actually is not like so black and white like the Western world paints it to be. Anyway, just goes to show that, look, these are the conversations with leaders that I really appreciate. That's why I proceeded the conversation with him because he I pushed him and he conceded, but he didn't purely concede.
01:17:50:18 - 01:18:05:20
Speaker 1
He kind of like push back and had his own point of view as well. And by the end of it, like he really showed his confidence, his competence and his curiosity, the ability to listen and then come up from it and like say, well, that was a good interaction. And I think that's what we need from our leaders.
01:18:06:00 - 01:18:15:24
Speaker 1
We need more of this kind of like attitude. Like, I will listen deeply to what you have to say, and then I will offer my point of view. And then we are so much and rich. Yeah, from having this conversation.
01:18:16:04 - 01:18:24:07
Speaker 3
But I noticed you didn't call it harsh for playing victim. He said that he he wanted to study geography, but then. Oh because life sciences, you know, like now scholarship.
01:18:24:09 - 01:18:28:18
Speaker 1
I have a victim of I mean,
01:18:28:20 - 01:18:30:03
Speaker 2
Was that was that victim.
01:18:30:03 - 01:18:49:04
Speaker 1
Language? Did you say I have? No, I had no job, I did. What do you call him now? We're victim language. No, the emphasis is on me. They made me. I had to go. So the opposite of victim languages, I. So I chose to do this, and I did this. But in a victim mindset, people always like emphasis on.
01:18:49:07 - 01:18:52:07
Speaker 1
They made me. He said that I got sent like, whatever.
01:18:52:07 - 01:18:53:06
Speaker 2
I'm glad we clarified.
01:18:53:06 - 01:18:54:04
Speaker 1
That cause.
01:18:54:06 - 01:19:01:02
Speaker 2
Parents you this is happens on a daily basis. You know he projects all the same species. I sometimes don't feel safe.
01:19:01:02 - 01:19:07:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, I apologize, I feel that I yeah.
01:19:07:04 - 01:19:08:18
Speaker 2
That's what you do. You do it. Yeah.
01:19:08:20 - 01:19:13:01
Speaker 1
What will you just say? Forgive him. What must you ask me? You.
01:19:13:03 - 01:19:28:16
Speaker 2
Your answer to in three? Yeah. We will follow up on that. But but thanks so much for sharing, Crystal. I think it's very useful info. We just have one more question, which is, one shock thing I got, which is, normally the question that stumps all the guests the most. Yeah. You can still go.
01:19:28:16 - 01:19:32:07
Speaker 2
Go last. We will go first. Yeah, yeah. Terrance, you have your one shot thing.
01:19:32:13 - 01:19:38:13
Speaker 3
Yes. There's actually a, movie by A24, you know, the, very, production company.
01:19:38:14 - 01:19:39:05
Speaker 1
And.
01:19:39:07 - 01:20:02:14
Speaker 3
Movies. They have a movie coming out. I don't know if it's already, but it's called undertone, and it's actually a, horror movie about podcasts. So it's basically this. I mean, I have only seen the trailer, I've heard reviews. It is very good, but basically plays of the idea of audio being the horror and listening to things, you know, whether it's played backwards and you hear the devil's voice and things like that.
01:20:02:16 - 01:20:17:01
Speaker 3
So the trailer is, very juicy for, you know, all of us who work in, podcasting space and just the idea that, a horror story can be told within a podcast studio. I'm really looking forward to watching this, you know.
01:20:17:07 - 01:20:19:09
Speaker 2
And, like, when did a trailer drop?
01:20:19:11 - 01:20:26:00
Speaker 3
Two months ago. But I believe it only just, got released just recently. It's called undertone and cool.
01:20:26:02 - 01:20:51:17
Speaker 2
Mine is also something I saw on YouTube. I mean, it's something that I've seen before, but it feels all the more relevant now. It's a clip from the great George Carlin. The comedian. It's, it's, set that he has seven minutes long. It's called Rockets and penises in the Persian Gulf. And he talks about, previous war that the USA entered, which I believe was the Iraq war and how at the end of it, it was, just like, competition for penis size, like.
01:20:51:18 - 01:21:06:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, of course, there's he's a lot more eloquent and is a lot funnier, but he's one of those timeless things, like, you listen to it now you're like, you can see his point. Like it's he's was. So he's one of those that I think resurfaced again and started picking up because a lot of people are sharing it like, oh, right.
01:21:06:08 - 01:21:33:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, I have to actually, because I am a voracious reader. So I must read every night. Every night. I've got two last, books that I read that were really good. One was called Theo of Golden, who is, which is of, a very I thought I wouldn't like it cos it sounded a bit like folksy, a bit like saccharin, a bit like feelgood, sort of thing, because I don't, you know, but it was a really, really nice parable about, this, story about a old guy with a mysterious past that moves into a community and starts doing mysterious good deeds.
01:21:33:22 - 01:21:50:20
Speaker 1
So that was that Theo of Golden. And then there's another one, that, you know, Joe Theo, like the older, lady with, who who does a lot of, like, data visualization. Yeah. So she records she had this books thing, and then she recommended this book called Project Hail Mary.
01:21:50:22 - 01:21:52:02
Speaker 2
But a movie.
01:21:52:05 - 01:22:12:15
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, yes, that's right. She just told me about it, I read it, it was so sweet. It was so good. It was like, you know, And the ending was very satisfying. A lot of times you read this sci fi and then the ending is like, you know, but it was so satisfying that when I finished reading, I actually went back to the second last chapter, and I just wanted to re-experience the ending again because it was so satisfying.
01:22:12:15 - 01:22:14:04
Speaker 2
So the movie has to live up to it.
01:22:14:04 - 01:22:23:07
Speaker 1
But she said that the movie, the one of the robot character, was not as cute as it was made out in the book. Yeah. But like, I will reserve judgment.
01:22:23:07 - 01:22:26:22
Speaker 2
And so she is Ryan Gosling as so.
01:22:26:24 - 01:22:29:14
Speaker 3
So we have to read the book first before watching the movie.
01:22:29:14 - 01:22:30:13
Speaker 1
The book is damn good. Okay.
01:22:30:16 - 01:22:34:24
Speaker 3
I don't know if you read it. Okay. Okay, okay. Do you like science fiction a lot?
01:22:35:01 - 01:22:38:04
Speaker 1
I read everything. Okay. Pretty much everything. Okay. Cool, cool.
01:22:38:06 - 01:22:44:19
Speaker 2
Okay. Cool. Thanks so much for joining us here. I mean, hopefully you you can come back at some point again in future and.
01:22:44:19 - 01:22:51:11
Speaker 3
As a but yeah. So if people want to learn more about you and, you know, a follow you, where's the best places to,
01:22:51:13 - 01:23:13:16
Speaker 1
I'm, on every platform. I'm on Instagram, TikTok as well as LinkedIn. Dose of the triple and, yeah, but we don't have as big a YouTube following as you guys. I got my own podcast called Comfort and Growth, which is more on Spotify. Yeah. So yeah, I come over on YouTube and support us. We got a very interesting the latest episode I was with, is there on the where you can hear me confront him about his victim mindset.
01:23:13:16 - 01:23:14:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
01:23:14:16 - 01:23:18:22
Speaker 2
We put the links in the show notes. Yeah. But, thanks so much for joining us.
01:23:18:24 - 01:23:20:05
Speaker 1
Yes.
01:23:20:07 - 01:23:24:05
Speaker 3
All right, so that was a really long conversation with Crystal. What do you get from it?
01:23:24:07 - 01:23:30:24
Speaker 2
I mean, no, no, I thought the one thing that you said about the four aspects of an apology, they wanted to like, practically quite useful.
01:23:30:24 - 01:23:33:03
Speaker 3
You were writing notes in real life.
01:23:33:05 - 01:23:51:18
Speaker 2
Because at first, when I. When I asked that question, I was expecting, okay, how was the answer going to be like, yeah, yeah, but he's one of those that okay if somebody does all for this feels like, sincerely killer. Whether even if it's an act or something, it's almost like they have done their homework. Yeah, yeah. You know and do kind of have do each of those.
01:23:51:18 - 01:23:56:19
Speaker 2
Well feels like okay. You would have had to think through it. Yeah. So I thought it was an interesting way of looking at it like.
01:23:56:20 - 01:24:12:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think you really have to give her props for the communication side of things that she's. You paint some things really clearly like, I think, you know, we would just say, oh, you know, in a, in a big group comes together to just think. But, you know, she paints it as like, you know, intellectual friction versus social friction.
01:24:12:20 - 01:24:29:10
Speaker 3
And yeah, you can see how in certain groups. Yeah, you know, we can sit in a room and disagree about it. But once we exit the room, we're all friends. And can we agree to disagree and stuff like that. That. Right. And that's the organizations that you know, that's what people pay her to teach the organizations to get to that stage.
01:24:29:13 - 01:24:56:07
Speaker 3
Right. I think we have a disagreement with her, about certain things like the GP program. That. Right. But I think it's still valuable to hear from her experience. As, you know, someone who definitely benefited from the program, sees her own children benefiting from it. And, I'm glad that we also got to discuss, in some sense, which is more important that, inequality or, you know, the need to protect our GP people and all that.
01:24:56:07 - 01:25:19:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. I, and, I'm just curious, like, how one of her workshop, seminars, goal. Because, I mean, if you if you look at her portfolio and all, I think she consults with a lot of different clients and all that, and. Yeah, I mean, sometimes you said certain things. She said, yeah. Even now, I still, feel differently than she does about certain things, which is where there was that debate and all.
01:25:19:14 - 01:25:26:22
Speaker 2
But, yeah, for the comms side of things, I think she understands the principles of comms pretty, pretty well, especially for the corporate setting.
01:25:27:00 - 01:25:49:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, I think, I'm so glad she does. She she alludes a lot to quite, I guess traumatizing experiences from childhood, learning about her upbringing and things like that. And, you see how these inform her in her adulthood also about what she wants for her own children, about what she thinks is important in the education system.
01:25:49:08 - 01:26:11:05
Speaker 3
And, yeah, I think that just puts a very human face to what she's teaching. Then it's not all borne from, you know, feeling good about yourself and things and, but is actually born from adversity that you've experienced in your own life. And then how do you, you know, see the glass half full and be more positive about it and built a career and a business out of it as well?
01:26:11:06 - 01:26:25:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I mean, at the end of the day, I appreciate that that she came on and on set. Questions where we disagree with her on certain things. And at the end of the. Yeah, we still wrapped up I had a good chat after and. Yeah. So I will always respect people who are willing to come and, debate.
01:26:25:24 - 01:26:44:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I mean, her courses probably, very popular because of that, right? Yeah. I enjoy hearing her talk about comms. I mean, I think I also first encounter her stuff from during the GE. Yeah, just talking about comms of ministers, you know, which I think is. Yeah. Somewhere that they can definitely improve on.
01:26:44:22 - 01:26:59:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, hopefully if you're listening, you found the conversation useful, we will put the links to what we mentioned in the show notes. If you enjoyed it, it would be great if you could share this episode at least one other person. You can follow us on social media for different kinds of formats.
01:26:59:06 - 01:27:10:07
Speaker 2
We recorded something with Crystal, that is going to show up on our social media so you can check it out. And if you want a weekly newsletter that consolidates all our one short things, you can sign up for your little bit@yellow.com.
01:27:10:07 - 01:27:21:01
Speaker 3
And to, work with us, please email us at contact at Ministry of Honeycomb or go to Ministry of Honeycomb. See our portfolio there and how you can work with us by, using the contact. That's pretty.
01:27:21:06 - 01:27:23:22
Speaker 2
Cool. Thanks for listening, everybody, and we'll talk to you all soon.