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Podcast fans from all around - come and nerd out about podcasts and discover new shows along the way!
On Podcast Book Club - a different group of podcast industry pros sit down each week to pour over an episode of a show they admire.
We're a group of podcasting professionals who spend every day scripting, producing, engineering, and promoting podcasts. And in our free time? We’re podcast fans just like you. We love to listen to even more podcasts and figure out what makes the best podcasts so good.
So tune in and join the club - listen to podcast reviews of some of our favorite gems. We’ll give feedback on podcast content but also sound design, production, scripting, storytelling, and more.
Want even more? Catch Podcast Book Club on Twitter: twitter.com/podbookclub
Podcast Book Club is produced by Alex Bennett, Head of Post Production at Lower Street. Alex is a domesticated audio nerd, who has spent the past five years learning about human social conventions via the medium of podcasting. From Edinburgh, Scotland he is an audio engineer that helps produce audio dramas in his spare time. Alex specialises in soundscapes and creative mixing. He has a deep and abiding love for sandwiches, and is the 2nd worst bowler at Lower Street.
Lower Street provides next-level podcast production services for ambitious companies: everything from podcast strategy and creation to growth. We’ve worked with companies like BCG to develop multiple podcasts like Climate Vision 2050, BCG Compliance, BCG Fintech Files, and BCG In Her Element. We’ve also helped produce: Cadence Bank’s In Good Companies; HPE’s Technology Now, Zuhlke’s Data Today, Northern Trust’s The Road to Why, Zoobean’s The Reading Culture; ICR’s Welcome to the Arena and ZeroNorth’s Navigating Zero.
Find out more at https://lowerstreet.co/ and sign up for our newsletter to keep in touch https://lowerstreet.co/newsletter-sign-up
[00:00:00] Jackie: Welcome, Lower Street Team. Uh, today I bring you one of the most popular and also annoying podcast formats, which is people talking about what they feel like talking about. And I know that this genre isn't great. But it also is a great example of something that works with a very specific format. And the format is what I'd love to talk about today.
This podcast, for my searching, is one of the largest of its kind on the internet. And you could argue, as we made today, that it is kind of at a forefront, like an evolutionary format. front for the podcast industry. It's called the H3 Podcast, which I will admit is polarizing of whether or not people enjoy it or not.
And I know for a fact that at least two people at this table Did not enjoy it, uh, which is interesting, and also expected, so. From what I can find online, the show started in 2016, initially on Twitch, and then moved to YouTube in 2017. Though, the hosts began as YouTubers, which I feel like is relevant.
It's hosted by Ethan Klein and features a cast of voices that I'm not gonna name because it's a very long list. Aside from live streaming daily, what makes the show interesting is that as it has evolved, the video component has become a much more important part of the production. That's gonna be the main point of the conversation today.
It's about video podcasting and how it is continuing to grow in the podcast industry. But what's happening right now is we're kind of hitting a point where the question about what is a podcast is needing to be answered. Can a podcast also be video? And if it can, then to what extent? Today, we will debate and we'll cover how video impacts reach, we'll talk about how it changes production, and we'll discuss what kind of shows can actually benefit from this format.
So welcome, Podcast Book Club, Lower Street. And let's start by introducing yourselves. And as you introduce yourself, I would like you to first answer the question. What is your definition of a podcast? And we'll start with Harry.
[00:02:06] Harry: So I'm Harry, I'm the founder of Lower Street, and I don't know. So I think it's interesting, Tom Webster's talked about this for a long time.
Tom Webster at Sounds Profitable have been talking about this idea that basically a podcast is whatever a person who discovers a podcast thinks a podcast is, right? Like if someone finds a show on YouTube and they call it a podcast, well then that's a podcast. Um, it doesn't really matter what podcast it is.
us as like longstanding podcast listeners who might feel passionately that it's not in an RSS feed. It's not a podcast. It doesn't, it doesn't matter, does it? Like if you're the consumer of that content and that's the label that you're giving it, then. You know, I've been listening to podcasts for a very long time.
We work in podcasting. To me, if it's not an audio file embedded in an RSS feed, it's not really a podcast. But I think I just have to let go of that belief because it doesn't really matter.
[00:02:55] Sam: Hello, I am Sam. I am one of the executive producers at Lower Street. And this was interesting for me today because I used to watch H3.
Way back in the day when they first came to YouTube and they were not a podcast then.
[00:03:11] CLIP: Hey, what up peeps?It's your boy Ethan from H3H3. The sun finally came out. It's a beautiful, nice, warm day here in New York City and I wanted to show you all at home what I'm about. A little peep into the world of EK from H3.
Vape nice, y'all.
[00:03:28] Sam: Do I think they're a podcast now? We'll wait and see. Do I think their quality has improved or declined over the years? We'll wait and see. Um, my definition of a podcast is any lean back on demand audio. I personally don't count live streaming. We'll get into that a little bit. I don't think a live stream can be a podcast and I don't think anything that requires audience direct attention really qualifies as a podcast either.
Throws up some gray areas if you're listening to radio on demand, listening to music radio. I kind of think that is a podcast to me. It's anything that you can just sit back, relax, and listen to. in your own time. Does that count as video? It can. We'll find out more.
[00:04:09] Jackie: I'm excited to see if these opinions evolve at all after this conversation.
It's
[00:04:13] Sam: a very poorly formed opinion. It's almost certainly
[00:04:16] Jackie: changed. It's malleable. All right, Erin.
[00:04:19] Erin: So I am Erin MacIndoe Sproule. And I'm also an executive producer, uh, here at Lower Street, and I'm really into, you know, the shortest, sweetest definitions possible, so often I'll just say, it's like radio on the internet, because people can just understand that really quickly, especially for sort of the over 70 crowd, or maybe That's
[00:04:40] Jackie: what I used to say
[00:04:41] Harry: to my 80 plus uncles. It's like, it's like radio, but yeah, it's like radio,
[00:04:46] Erin: but it's on the internet
[00:04:46] Harry: and BBC iPlayer, but for audio.
[00:04:49] Erin:Yeah. Well, and there is so much crossover between radio and podcasting and like, you know, podcasts that are also on the radio, like, and I think that leads to my sort of personal definition, which really is focused on audio storytelling.
I think that's what I really lean on. That's what I consider a podcast. And for it to be a podcast in my mind. Audio really has to be the main focus, but as others have said, maybe I need to expand my definitions a little bit.
[00:05:16] Jackie: Nice. Nice. Cool. My name is Jackie. I'm a producer at lower street and my definition, I'm also the host.
I am a senior producer. Yes. Um, thank you. I think my definition is any kind of content, a show that is, I want to say like language forward, because I feel like Audio is, is obviously the medium for it, but it's mostly about discussion and a lot of conversations regardless of like the way the format.
Facilitates those, but I mean, there's also like fiction podcasts, but it's all about communicating things with language. So I would say that audio is obviously the home for that, but a show language driven would be my definition. So let's talk about YouTube a little bit. So that is obviously this H3 Podcast is primarily homed on YouTube and YouTube has also made some moves to get into the podcasting space and continues to make those moves.
This is an excerpt from Pod News newsletter, which I know all of us read, but anybody not, anybody who's listening, who doesn't read it is a very good, uh, industry newsletter. I said YouTube is offering payment to podcasters to be in the platform. According to Adam Curry, speaking on the Podcasting 2.0 Podcast, The podfather says he was offered access to the company's RSS ingestion pilots and a grant if he was to do his show in video form.
Uh, he refused and they quote him saying, In my opinion, this is a hijack of the term podcast at best and a disingenuous use of the term to build up a competency on the backs of thousands of developers and content creators over a span of 20 years. It's not a good look. Wow, strong feelings. It is very, exactly very strong.
Did you follow that up by saying, Oh, can we talk about the grants?
[00:06:57] Jackie: They also quoted Yap Media CEO, uh, Hala Taha. I hope I'm saying that right in a different newsletter saying podcasts are no longer an audio only format and effective podcast campaigns lead into the strengths of each podcast influencers platform across audio, social media, live streams and YouTube.
So my question is, If we are stretching the definition too far, or if you agree with the latter saying that no, no, no, it is not audio only anymore, and I would love to reverse the order. Start with Erin. Do you think that YouTube getting into podcasting, YouTube saying that,
[00:07:37] Erin: think that we are stretching the term too far, and that isn't to say that I don't think we need to expand the medium. I think what we really need is more terminology, because I think when you say podcast at this point, most people understand what you're talking about, except maybe for our grandmothers who still need the, you know, radio on the internet sort of breakdown.
But I think that a video, well, and we're going to talk about, you know, the different examples that you shared, but for example, you know, just a live streamed podcast, which is some of the most popular video podcasts that are out there right now is so different than, you know, a video podcast that has been pre recorded just everything, you know, about the content and about what you're experiencing has.
a different feel, which we'll get into a little bit more later. But I think that we need to come up with a whole new set of language to talk about how the medium is evolving.
[00:08:27] Harry: Because my gut reaction to the first few minutes of watching H3 was just like, well, this feels like it's a live stream that's being repurposed into a podcast.
Like they've got the content already. It's native to YouTube or Twitch or whatever. And now they're taking the audio and they're just slapping up on Apple and Spotify, which is great. There's nothing wrong with that. But like, Yeah, that's what it felt like to me.
[00:08:47] Jackie: You know, what's really interesting about that is that the podcast itself started with a more podcast format.
And it was, yeah, it was, it wasn't initially like this, like live stream thing. It was this podcast and then they had the video component and then they added the live component. Then like they use, they utilized the like ability to stream video and whatnot, but everything became less and less and less of a podcast as it went on.
So it's interesting that you think, yeah, you feel like it is that direction. It was
[00:09:13] Erin: so weird though, too, because there's lots of aspects of it that you literally cannot understand unless you're watching because they're like referring to video clips. They're like, watch this, you know, and they're not even doing really, um, I shouldn't say a good job, but they're not really explaining things like now I'm going to play this video that is of this.
So if you were just listening by audio, there, there would be a lot that you would miss not having seen the video.
[00:09:35] Harry: I forgot about
[00:09:39] Sam: that. So annoying. 15
[00:09:41] Jackie: second rule. This thing is screwed up.
[00:09:44] Sam: Hey guys, continue. Well, the production quality is. So, Scattered, and that's, I think that's what they're going for. You know, they've got the budget to make a very slickly produced piece if they want to.
They've been going long enough. They like what they're doing, and more power to them for that. But the sound effects that are thrown in 15 seconds too late, the videos that don't play, like, even watching the video, you're struggling to understand what's going on sometimes. There is no hope. I close my eyes.
And tried to listen to it as a lean back experience. And within 15 seconds, I was completely lost. I didn't know who was talking. I didn't know whether someone was in the studio, or whether it was a pre recorded clip. At some point, some pre recorded clip started playing as someone else was talking. It was utterly incomprehensible as audio.
I'm not doing that. Because
[00:10:31] Jackie: I saw what a disaster of Beast Burger was, like, it's just gonna be shit.
[00:10:35] Sam: I
[00:10:36] Jackie: recreated Willy Wonka's chocolate. We are currently surrounded by countless sharks.
[00:10:42] Sam: If I put my pocket and have my headphones on, I would walk into a lamppost. I
[00:10:46] Erin: love so much that you use the term like lean back.
And I think that for me is one of the biggest differences. And we as podcast creators are often just talking to people about the intimacy of the medium and how it's like, you're in someone's head, you know, you can get so so close to the person who you're trying to reach. But yeah, exactly. As you're saying, the people who are into the YouTube podcasts, I can't say it without like doing the air quotes, which I probably need to move on from, but.
[00:11:11] Harry: Such an elitist podcast.
[00:11:14] Erin: I know, I know. I'm such a purist. Yeah. I think that, you know, we're used to creating what I would describe as yeah, more lean in. content and I think that the live stream is that sort of like lean back.
[00:11:26] Jackie: I want to go back to what you said about the sound effects and what not being thrown in there because it's also interesting that you find that difficult to listen to without actually seeing it because that harkens back to like old radio, you know?
And I mean, You go Howard Stern as well, like you're looking at like podcasting, but yeah, like a lot of old radio shows would do that. They'd have those like sound boards and like It's so cheesy. Wah wah. Yeah, yeah. But you're saying you feel like that doesn't work with audio only. It
[00:11:52] Sam: does work with audio only when it's well produced and relevant to the audio.
And in radio They've got a button that they'll press and the sound effect will play out. Someone in that studio is pressing that button 10, 15, 20 seconds too late. And I don't know if they're just running off 4G remotely from another country, that's where the lag is coming from. It's another part of the room.
Or whether someone's just on a different tab. And they're kind of frantically scrolling, scrolling through all the apps on their phone to try and find the soundboard to hold up into the microphone. Yeah.
[00:12:21] Jackie: I think that's where we get into this like evolution of streaming because streaming itself is this very intimate like you're with somebody who's live on the internet at the same time as you and they're doing things naturally like at the speed that a regular human would.
And it feels like this is very much. If radio and streaming had a baby and called it a podcast, um, and then incorporated video. And that's, I love it. Yeah.
[00:12:44] Erin: That's a great, great illustration. That should be the new definition. It's like, Oh, this is, this is what we're talking about. Yeah.
[00:12:50] Jackie: It's awesome. I like, okay.
But I also, I want to get like super, like we're, we're getting like, so focused on the definition of podcasting and you're saying that we need more definitions. What comes to mind is the evolution of like, Television and television shows from cable to streaming. And it's a completely different way we watch something.
It's really impacted the way that television is produced. Yet, we still call it TV, right? So, is this the same? Does it matter that it's like slightly different? Is it, is it, are we not allowing space for evolution if we're getting caught up in a purist definition?
[00:13:27] Sam: I don't think you can realistically gatekeep the term podcast.
No. I don't think any one person can decide what a podcast is or isn't. That said, nor can YouTube. And the reason I say that is I started off in YouTube before I was in podcasting, I was a YouTuber. And back in about 2013 2014, talking about the evolution from TV to streaming, YouTube was desperate to get in on the smart TV revolution.
They wanted to become a streaming platform. They wanted to take what was happening on Twitch at the time and add production value to it and create a streaming platform that people would watch on TV. And YouTube did exactly what they're doing with podcasting now. I got commissioned to create a live streaming platform on YouTube.
We did some pre recorded content. We did a lot of live stream content and YouTube very much tried to buy a redefinition of the term with themselves front and center in it. That was their game plan. And I can see them following that game plan now with podcasting and doing exactly the same thing that they've done before is to try and redefine what the use of YouTube is and to try and extract greater revenue streams.
from it. And they are trying to buy into redefining that term and putting YouTube top and center as the podcast video platform. And I think Spotify have jumped on that as well. But YouTube is the best place people to do it. And they failed in their smart TV revolution because they couldn't provide the quality of content that Netflix could, that HBO could, that the other platforms could.
They just couldn't pump enough money into it. Podcasting is significantly cheaper, and I think this time they're probably going to win. It
[00:15:01] Jackie: is really interesting. The, like, YouTube versus Twitch or whatever. Twitch has, like, had a very well defined audience, and I think, I think that YouTube is kind of, like, an easier entry point for people to get into streaming without having the association that it's just a bunch of, like, Nerdy teenage boys gaming.
So that is, that is very interesting. And also I think the argument about why, and I want to move on from this, but the argument about why we would gatekeep the term is probably for like quality control. Because if, if once you create that entry point and everybody can, can get into it, I feel like, yeah, you, you change the, the standard, I guess, and like what you're saying audio storytelling is.
And if, if suddenly podcasting is just people live streaming on YouTube, then are all the charts, I don't know, like charts, but like, yeah, maybe this is where the argument comes in for definitions and changing things. I want to talk more about like video and podcasting. We're talking about it as if it's something that has evolved from audio only.
But to contradict that everybody's favorite show, the Joe Rogan show, uh, which I want to clarify. Um, Is not something I personally enjoy, but it has been synonymous with the term podcasting for a very long time. And it started on YouTube as like a video podcast. And so it's interesting that we, we talk about like podcasting as like audio storytelling and uh, get this show that has like consistently top the charts, continues to do so is a video thing.
And a lot of people are, are watching it, not listening to it. So the question becomes like, What does that say about the potential success of podcasts that are audio only versus audio only? Those that are video and is that something that needs to be considered when we're talking about continuing to move this, uh, industry forward?
[00:16:53] Harry: I think, like, possibly one of the reasons it was called a podcast from the beginning when it was essentially just like a YouTube interview show is because they sat like this in a studio with microphones in front of them and it's like, Oh, we've got big fat mics. It's a podcast. So I feel like it's just like the look of it.
Yeah. Because when we, when we think about like clients who talk to us and they, they pick up the phone and say, we, you know, we want to start a podcast and it turns out they're thinking about a video podcast. I just think to them, that's what it is. It's like Diary of a CEO in the UK, or Joe Rogan, or Tim Ferriss, or whatever.
And it's just two people in front of microphones. And so, therefore, it doesn't matter whether it's filmed or not. It's just because of the mics, it's inherently a video. Whereas if you took the microphones away and use boom arms, like every other video, it would suddenly be like, compared to the average sort of TV interview show.
[00:17:34] Sam: It's funny, isn't it? Because it actually creates a mental image. If you imagine a podcast and you think about starting a podcast, if you're, if you're an individual or a brand, the mental image that you get. is of a very polished studio like this. Mic's round the table, Joe Rogan style. No one ever considers that most people when they start their podcast are broadcasting Harry Potter style from underneath their stairs, in their downstairs loo, wherever, wherever they can get five minutes peace and it's not that echoey.
A closet. A closet. Yeah, exactly. And actually I think we, you know, the barrier to entry in podcasting is so low. We were talking about barriers to entry. You know, a 40 microphone. sitting in a cupboard will get you great content if you're a good storyteller. But I think that we did like, it's so synonymous now with this is, this is what podcasting is.
[00:18:21] Erin: You lose some of that a little bit moving to video because it does just inevitably come that much bigger of a lift. It's that much bigger of a project. You know, you lose that kind of easy DIY sort of nature of podcasting. And
[00:18:36] Harry: it's harder to edit. Oh yeah. I feel like you just get like more. It waters down the kind of like flex you have to make something that's really like tight and put together.
It feels like it just leans more towards long form. Yeah,
[00:18:49] Sam: definitely. Although when you've got three cameras set up like we have here, if one of us on this side just starts dribbling dross, as I have been. Unfortunately, you've got that camera there, and you can just have Erin and Jackie nodding. Exactly, I've
[00:19:00] Harry: yawned several times, and I'm hoping that we're just going to cut to your side of the room.
[00:19:04] Sam: There's a lot of nodding in this episode, a lot of nodding before we
[00:19:07] Harry: go
[00:19:08] Jackie: home. Exactly. No, I mean, that is so interesting, because it's a conversation of, how does it change the way that podcasts are producing it? Again, that goes back to, what is a podcast? Because I went to radio college, like, a very specific program, and they talk so much about it, and it actually is so interesting, but like, the theater of the mind.
Right. And audio allows you to do that. It allows you to be in a different space. I think it's the most immersive format, which is so interesting because yeah, two podcasts lose quality when you add video.
[00:19:33] Erin: I think that what you lose out on more than anything is, you know, podcasting actually sometimes feels more aligned to reading to me even than like a video, like especially like a video where you're seeing everything like a more sort of visualized.
Documentary or, um, because it's that having to imagine in your mind and often I, you know, I always say this with, with video. I think that you're sometimes what you're seeing is not as spectacular as what you could have imagined in your mind might have been. And I think that you really miss out on, on that.
And there's, and for me, that audio storytelling piece, that's what's so key to it is crafting that picture in someone's mind. And you lose that when you kind of like feed them everything. So people are
[00:20:17] Jackie: disappointed in the movies from the books all the time. Yeah, exactly.
[00:20:20] Erin: It's like teasing out something for someone as opposed to just like giving, giving everything away.
[00:20:26] Jackie: Yeah. Information overload. It kills imagination. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and yeah, that's. Wow. Podcasting can be so magical. But I mean, for those interview formats, is that really necessary?
[00:20:35] Erin: I mean, I think, yes, the best interviews, I'm picturing something in my mind. Like, you know, someone's telling me a great story and I'm like there with them.
Even, you know, if it's a podcast that I would not normally personally listen to about a topic that I don't typically find super interesting, like accounting, I'm just going to throw that topic out there. I love you, all you accounting podcasts out there. This is not meant to, uh, throw shade on you at all, but like, if I can hear, you know, some amazing story about someone doing something amazing, you know, that they're using as an anecdote to demonstrate something to me about accounting.
Yeah, I want to be able to picture that. I want to be able to see them doing that thing. I want to be able to kind of let my imagination go wild. Whereas, yeah, I'm just bored. Like looking at two people's faces talking like that's actually taking away from my experience of being able to grow a garden in my mind.
[00:21:27] Harry: There's also a bit like they're listening to the emotion of someone's, but you know, when their voice quivers in an interview and all you can hear is that. Yeah, it's pretty affecting, like, obviously you can, like, I guess what you miss out on is when someone starts to tear up, but they don't necessarily sound like they're tearing up.
So you can see that in a video, but you can't hear it. That space
[00:21:41] Jackie: is so much more impactful when you don't know what's happening. Yeah.
[00:21:44] Erin: Yeah. Hearing someone cry is way more impactful than seeing someone cry.
[00:21:48] Harry: Yeah,
[00:21:48] Sam: I agree. You know, the quickest way to ruin that is to insert a really grainy Zoom video. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you just, all of that. Beauty that you've created there in audio form, it's so easy to ruin it by adding video Yeah. In the wrong place.
[00:22:02] Jackie: Yeah, for sure. So I want to talk about the live bit about this because I think that's something that makes this super unique and live podcasting or just like live anything, the demands of quality lower, you get away with more.
And this is exactly what that kind of feels like, right? I don't know if you guys watched that. It's a three hour thing, so I don't expect you to have watched the whole thing. But there's a part midway through where the host Ethan is straight up just like, Oh, we should order some food. And they spend, I want to say like 20 minutes just discussing what food to order.
[00:22:41] CLIP: Alright, well let's get some, let's get some Taco Bell. Oh yeah, I want a Baja Blast most definitely. Oh. Baja Blast diet. Bro, the Taco Bell website isn't loading.
[00:22:43] Harry: I think the use case for a lot of this stuff is that people just like to feel like they're a part of hanging out. Yes. You know what I mean?
They're just like in their, like, I'm just in my living room, we're all sitting around on the sofa and you guys are having a chat and I'm just sitting there as like the giggling in the corner or whatever. And I think there's something kind of reassuring to that. The realism of it is maybe quite, Uh, attractive to people.
At least that's my theory, because I think it's dog Really bad content. That's the thing, the content doesn't need to be good. I was just immediately turned off, like, the first five seconds. Like, the guy looks so unenthused with being there, to the point of actually, like, kind of a bit depressed. And he's just like, okay, here we go, right.
You can see he's already looking at his watch of like, okay, how are we going to fill the next three hours? Cause I really am not in the mood. And when can we get to the bit where we talk
[00:23:32] Jackie: about lunch? So this is an interesting point too, because I think that part of the reason that like audio is so effective is the, the closeness that you feel with the host, because you're hearing somebody in your ears or whatever.
I think that live streaming. Is actually quite similar to that in that you get this, it's, it's more of a relationship that you're building as opposed to here's good content because there's no filter is there. It's just like, no. And that is the person though. And what you're, that personality that you're describing, you don't like it, but it's something like that either grows on you or it doesn't.
And then you feel attached to this person. Right. And so it doesn't matter what the content is. That's
[00:24:07] Harry: miserable Joe. I love miserable
[00:24:09] Jackie: Joe. Exactly. And like, right. Yeah, I just, I feel like that's something that's interesting. You guys clearly don't like, like this necessarily, but there are a lot of people that do.
Yeah. And that's what I find so fascinating about it is like, this is not great content. I want to talk a little
[00:24:25] Erin: bit about what doing a live stream does to us as the people who are currently, well, we're not being live streamed, but when you're being recorded on video, what that does to you. that changes the content.
Because I think that, you know, what you were saying, Harry, is like, Oh, he seems so, so boring. And I agree with you. Yeah. But I think that for the average person, there's an adrenaline rush with being on video that does not happen when you're on mic. I definitely felt it when I came into this room. I still feel it right now.
Oh my God. You're more aware for sure. But yeah, you, you feel different. Yeah. And I think that that's a good thing and a bad thing. I think that the good thing is like, maybe there's more excitement of like, You feeling like you're performing a little bit more or something like that, that I think can bring a different energy to a podcast.
But then you do also miss like personally, I think I would be way less likely to tell a really personal story about myself being on video than in an audio
[00:25:21] Harry: format. I do think a lot of it's exposure though. It's like speaking for myself, like I felt what you described. For the first 10 minutes, I was like a little, I couldn't stop smirking.
I was like a little kid out there filming me. And then like 10 minutes in, I'm like, whatever, we're just hanging out, we're talking and that's fine. And I used to feel the same with podcasts. Every time I was interviewed on a podcast, I was super nervous. So I don't know how you guys all feel, because I think that like, it's good in the sense that you feel it's a moment, like so when you're new to podcasting, and then when you're new to video podcasting, it makes you in this more sort of performative state, and it kind of feels like more of a thing.
Mm hmm. But then you don't really get the real person, like, the excited, slightly nervous me isn't really me. It's just me, like, trying to say what I think I should be saying in that particular moment. And actually when I relax into it 45 minutes in, then that's like a much more realistic sense of my personality.
[00:26:05] Sam: I think there's a reverse bell curve. Do you think there's a point which they've got that right mix of, energy and authenticity before it just slides into laziness.
[00:26:13] Harry: I think that's a really good way of putting what my experience with H3 was. I was just like, they've been doing this for so long. They're like, if you're a fan, you're a fan.
I don't give a fuck.
[00:26:21] Jackie: That's kind of the attitude. You said that you listened or you watched H3 Podcast, or not the podcast, but the YouTube channel before. And you had made a comment at the beginning about whether or not the content regressed. Is that how you feel?
[00:26:32] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they've always done live streams, but they used to do a lot more pre recorded content as well.
And It's interesting you talk about letting the personality come through because they've got so much and it might be that that energy has died off a little bit over the years, but there just used to be so many more highs and lows with their presenting style. They used to be not necessarily narrative, but they would get animated, they would get angry.
And it wouldn't just be low energy sardonic animation, they'd be kind of up in arms about things that were angering them. And. That had a lot more impact to me. Here are just a few of the things you'll still be able to
[00:27:07] Jackie: do on the internet after these Obama era regulations are repealed. Why does it matter that it's Obama era?
Like, this is just proof that this is such partisan hackery. Like, don't worry about the details. All that matters is that Obama era regulation. It doesn't matter that it was not a partisan issue at the time and that it was supported by both parties. You're partisan hack, dude!
[00:27:29] Sam: It's interesting, you were talking before about authenticity.
Authenticity. Authenticity is brilliant, but that doesn't mean it can't be edited. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be edited. From like three hours of very low energy down to an hour of pretty high energy and good content. And I think that's what gets lost in the streaming field a lot, is that you can maintain and improve on authenticity.
I sometimes describe it as being like natural makeup, which I'm seeing tons of it right now. But like, there's a lot of energy and effort ends up going into looking naturally beautiful with natural makeup on, isn't there? Right. Yeah. I'm not putting this particularly well because I'm not the best use case.
But like,
[00:28:08] Erin: um, we can all see you right now though, Sam, and we know that you are the best use case. Yeah, you can't hide from us. Because your natural, your natural makeup looks gorgeous right now. Yeah. Oh yeah,
[00:28:15] Sam: you don't know how long it takes to paint on this. Three days double growth because I couldn't take a razor through hand luggage with me.
[00:28:21] Jackie: It's actually, that's a different conversation that we don't have time for today, but the repurposing of live streaming content to package that authenticity, I could think of other live streamers who do that, who create high energy content out of their very long low energy content.
[00:28:38] Sam: I think everyone, if you've got the resources to do that.
Yeah. And I say this as somebody who works for an agency, right? And, and we, like to push out the best for our clients. If you've got the resources to do that, my personal opinion is that you owe it to yourself and your audience to do that. And if you're not doing that, you're basically cashing in.
[00:28:56] CLIP: You think I'm a sellout, why? Because I live in a big house or I dress a certain way? Or maybe it's because I like Barry Manilow.
[00:29:00] Jackie: So it doesn't chart on traditional podcast charts, which says something, the H3 Podcast. I don't see it on regular charts, but H3 Podcast has been nominated for best podcast at the Streamy Awards for the past two years. Five, four or five years in a row now, they haven't won, but they've been nominated every time.
To me, this kind of feels like modern day radio. It's like, it's like I said, like radio meets, uh, live streaming, which is interesting because radio has actually like having a TV or video component is not new. I think of sports radio in Canada, TSN, you would know they broadcast Bob McAllen. That was like a thing already, like, you know, they were recording the radio show and repurposing it for TV.
But I want to talk about this show specifically and. It's telling, like I said, the charting thing, is it a podcast or not? And uh, Erin, I want to start with you.
[00:29:54] Erin: Sure. Well, I have to say that I felt anger. Towards Jackie, maybe a little bit when she first assigned my goal podcast and when I started, uh, and I sent Jackie a long message that was basically like, why would anybody listen?
Yeah, it was, I think I opened with that. I think I was like, Hey,
so I think my first question was, Hey, I just see this as three hours long. You don't expect me to watch this all do you? Uh, so that was the first thing, but then it was like, Why, why, why do people who like this, uh, like this? Cause literally I could not understand. I'm just not, I'm not the right audience.
Then when I saw that they had won all of these awards, I was like, oh, okay, this is like huge. Like this is really, I think the thing to shoot for, for a certain audience and a certain kind of medium. Like if they're winning all these awards, they have a huge listenership. I mean, I came in here, I think with the purest point of view, but as the conversation has evolved, I think I am feeling more like.
[00:30:54] Jackie: Yeah, it's a
[00:30:55] Harry: podcast. Yeah, I think it's a bad podcast, but it's a podcast. It's not, like, I think it's a bad podcast for me and for, for the medium of podcasts. I don't know quite how to phrase this, but it's clearly a very good podcast. So anyway, I think it's a podcast. It's just, I would not listen to that podcast.
Is it a podcast? Yes.
[00:31:15] Sam: Yeah. But yeah, it's a, it's a podcast then, and I wouldn't listen to it. But, uh, despite the fact that I actually, you know, I used to really like the people who made it, and I'm sure they're still lovely people, but the content they're producing now isn't something I'd listen to. That said, you've got to respect the numbers, and they have clearly drill down and nail into their audience.
And you don't get to that size on YouTube without spending hours in the back end of YouTube. You're looking at the analytics, finding out exactly what your audience want down to the second and giving it to them. And hey, more power to them if they can release an unedited three hour stream. with random sound effects cutting over people.
Talking about ordering food. Talking about ordering food. People walking in front of the camera. Someone bizarrely with a beach background. If they can do that and get away with it and the audience love it. I wondered about that too.
[00:32:02] Harry: They had
[00:32:02] Jackie: changed the backgrounds. A little like rabbit. I just
[00:32:05] Erin: couldn't stop looking at it.It was distracting.
[00:32:07] Sam: Yeah. Yeah, but they've nailed it. Yeah. They've given the audience what they want to hear and. Yeah. I'd love to be snobby about it, but I can't. Well done guys.
[00:32:18] Jackie: I mean, there's so many other conversations that we could have based on like so many things you just said there, and I'm not going to open that up, but I mean, like community and whatnot is like a huge part of, I just think it's really important to understand that there are so many people that listen and care about this and think it's a podcast because, I mean, my whole takeaway from this is that when we get snobby about what something is, then you are.
Eliminating the ability for other people to be involved in it. And as podcasting professionals, we need to acknowledge whether or not we like this kind of content, whether or not we think it's easy or cheap or whatever. It is something that people want. And you need to go to what people want, because ultimately, without an audience, a podcast isn't really a podcast.
[00:32:58] Harry: Totally. And I want to jump on the easy thing. Like, I don't think for a second this is easy. Daily content for three hours is exceptionally hard. Yeah. Evidenced by how clearly hard it was for him to get out of bed that morning, because like, fuck. But like, to sit there for three hours and do it, like, that's not easy at all.
Like, I'm not saying for a second that it's, it's easy. It appears lazy in the way that it's produced and the way that it comes across, but like, to actually do that on a regular basis is a phenomenal amount of work, I would assume. I think
[00:33:25] Erin: too, you know, this is part of maybe a like broader cultural sort of movement with this like YouTube y kind of stuff and it's very, it's its own sort of thing.
It's not super relevant to a lot of the podcasts that we make because I think the kinds of podcasts that we usually make are not targeting these people specifically. But. Yeah, for this, there is a very specific but dedicated audience who's looking for exactly yeah, this kind of, this kind of material.
[00:33:54] Jackie: There are bits and pieces that we can take from every style of
[00:33:57] Harry: podcasting. I do wonder if like That's what I'm interested in. I do wonder, so we make podcasts for brands. And when we're making, I just wonder like, is there a world in which like, C suite, I mean C suite execs is like oftentimes what people that we work with are trying to appeal to.
The common wisdom is that they're too busy. Like they don't have time. Yeah, absolutely not. I just wonder if there is a, a particular niche of brands where actually they do just wanna see leaders in insert subject matter expert thing. Shoot the shit for two hours. Yeah. You know, like maybe that is a thing.
I don't know.
[00:34:29] Erin: I think that the other
[00:34:30] Jackie: podcast that you shared.
[00:34:31] Harry: With the largest shoulders in the world.
[00:34:34] Erin: Yes. Which by the way, he talks about like a fair bit in that video too. That's like, that's what the conversation goes into is like his workout routine. Okay. Um.
[00:34:44] Harry: I don't get jacked like you Alex. Deep dive with Ali Abdaal.
[00:34:46] Jackie: Yeah.
[00:34:48] CLIP: I think I heard you say in one of the interviews that you've had six pack abs since the age of like 16 or something, something like that. Um, Oh, love it.
[00:35:02] Erin: So that podcast, I would say watching it, A, it's way more similar to what I typically think of as a podcast. The format is very similar. You know, it sort of has like a cold open, Then it's got an intro from the host, you know, then it's just this long interview with interstitial segments throughout, which are ads, product placement, kind of throughout the podcast.
But yeah, so that is something where I could see, you know, this is a video podcast. I don't know if that one was live streamed or not, but it, it is. No, it wasn't.
[00:35:30] Harry: It didn't look like it. This is the one that pissed me off the most, though. Oh, really? Oh, yeah? More than H3. More than H3. H3 didn't piss me off. I just didn't like it.
But like, this one pissed me off because Ali Abdaal’s a really, he's an incredible content creator. His YouTube channel is phenomenal. And yet the interview, so the setup was amazing. And then the interview itself is just like him on a fucking Zoom call with a shit background. I'm like, what the f you've got a stud like, why didn't you record it in the studio?
[00:35:54] Erin: The backgrounds, I was like
[00:35:55] Harry: It's such an easy thing for you to do. And Alex Hormozi has the best setup in the world. It's like, why the fuck did you record it on an iPhone? I just don't get it.
[00:36:02] Sam: That's exactly what I was thinking looking at it. I was like, this is such a good interview by two people who really know what they're talking about and can talk on a microphone.
[00:36:09] Harry: And it's literally recorded on a laptop because you can see it's like angled up at his face.
[00:36:14] Sam:Yeah. And watching it is hot garbage. Yeah. Like, it actively detracts from the quality of the interview watching it. Yeah,
[00:36:19] Harry: well this makes a point. It's like incredibly interesting and smart people, right, so.
[00:36:21] Jackie: This makes a point though, if you're not going to leverage video, then there's no point because it actually detracts from the quality.
[00:36:27] Harry: Right, it's just that Ali Abdaal's existing audience was on YouTube. Yeah. So like, obviously it has to be there because he's going to get a million billion views for doing the lowest common denominator, which is what it is.
[00:36:35] Erin: But can I just say, especially for like this
[00:36:37] Harry: crowd. Again, no shade, Ali. Like, I love you and the content's amazing, but I love you. You're not watching.
[00:36:43] Jackie: Hey, you never know. You never know.
[00:36:45] Erin: Yeah. Just like hot tip for anyone who is doing this content, but maybe I'm wrong because people watch this, but like, why can't you just clean your fucking room? Like, I'm sorry, but like, why do so many people put out video podcasts where they have literal garbage in their background? So like just clean.
[00:37:00] Jackie: It's just like your house.
[00:37:01] Sam: That's a Twitch stream, right? That's the live stream you want to see guests cleaning their dirty room.
[00:37:09] Harry: Is it like a, is it like a purposeful, again, I'm talking specifically about Ali Abdaal and Alex Hormozi, who know full well they're being watched, right, because it's their job to be watched. So are they making a conscious decision to just look? Like everybody else,
[00:37:22] Jackie: I think it's just like people's comfort with what they're willing to present themselves as to other people, because like, if you think about it, like, it's kind of the same conversation of do you clean? How much do you clean your apartment before you have somebody over? Do you care? Like, I feel like that's more like a conversation depends.
[00:37:37] Erin: So like, am I having a potential client over? I'm going to clean my house, you know, and this is like a business podcast. So like, this is for your potential clients. So yeah, you're going to clean your house before they come over. If I'm having like, But
[00:37:46] Jackie: what's clean?
[00:37:48] Harry: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I don't know, our house isn't clean. I just, I deal with it by, like, feeling like I definitely should clean, not cleaning, feeling huge amounts of shame and spending the entire time apologizing, and then not learning and doing it the same next time. So that's my approach. But, uh, anyway.
[00:38:01] Sam: You only need one clean corner of your house to make a good video.
Exactly. You need two square meters. You just have to shift the crap. It doesn't have underwear on the floor, or stuff like that. What if your kid's lunch is spattered on the wall?
[00:38:12] Erin: Yeah, it just, it ruins people's credibility for me. Like when I see someone who is on video and they've got like a beautiful setup, you know, they, they look good, they look professional, you know, they look like they're coming to a meeting, they don't have to be like in a suit.
I mean, that would be awful, but like, you know, they've got, a good look. I'm like, okay, this is someone who's a professional. They want to present themselves as a professional. But when I see someone, especially it was, it was so bad during COVID, but everyone gets a free pass for that. Cause it was a weird time, but you know, when you've got people who have like exercise equipment, like, like right behind them or like, you know, Yeah, very unintentional sort of look to the video.
It's just
[00:38:48] Jackie: like, why?
[00:38:49] Harry: So you have to think that in Ali Abdaal’s case it was a decision that they actively made, right? Like he had to have chosen to not record it in his studio,
[00:38:57] Jackie: right? Which
[00:38:58] Erin: maybe, maybe it is that authenticity piece. It's like, oh, this is how people know that I'm real. I'm just a real guy.
[00:39:02] Harry: People won't feel like it's a podcast if I'm in my cool studio and my guests are in whatever.
[00:39:07] Jackie: It's kind of like YouTube when a YouTuber is like, Keep in when they mess up on the line, like they'll be like, Oh, welcome. Sorry. Welcome to my show. You know, it's like fake authenticity.
[00:39:18] Erin: Hmm. Yeah, but I think, you know, Sam, you were kind of alluding to this a little bit before with the natural makeup thing. Is that more authentic or is the edited version of someone where you kind of pick the pieces of them that feel like they're the most core to their personality? Is that actually a more authentic representation of someone? Well.
[00:39:38] Sam: I'm a, I'm a, I'm a producer. I'm a podcast producer. It's my job to try and make people sound good. So yeah, it absolutely is not a completely authentic version of them. It's a polished version of them. It's a version of them with filters on.
[00:39:51] Jackie: Anything where you're recording is not completely authentic. I don't think it's possible. No. I want to wrap up because of time, but I do want to see if anybody has like major takeaways from this because I think mine is that video. It can detract from the imagination or in the wonderful things that our brains can do when we leave gaps to fill. But I also think that it can be something that can increase your reach.
So it depends on what you're going for. Yeah, it's like still so murky and I'm still figuring out like how I feel about videos in podcasts. But overall, yeah, definitely does feel like it detracts. But still very useful and something that we should embrace.
[00:40:32] Erin: Yeah, I think for me, it really comes down to audience.
And I think that that's why it's so important, you know, something that we do as part of our Lower Streets. process is a competitive landscape analysis. And, you know, as part of that, we're looking at all the other podcasts that are out there, but increasingly what I would say I've been doing is not just looking at that, but looking at, you know, what are the other things that these people are interested in?
And that's something that we're continuing to grow at Lower Street because it's not just when they're looking for a podcast, what are the other podcasts that they're looking for? Or it is like, what is taking their time and attention and how can we become the thing that takes their time and attention?
And if these are audiences that already are on YouTube, you know, if they're liking stuff that's on YouTube, that tells us a lot about them. You know, maybe that's a place that we want to be, but I don't think it's, I don't know. Always an automatic, yes, we want to be on there, and that's where we're gonna get a hundred thousand.
[00:41:25] Jackie: Go to the audience, don't try to create elite content that you've decided is the standard in your head.
[00:41:32] Sam: Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. So I've got a surprising positive takeaway from H3. Ooh. And the thing that I was looking at when I was watching H3, I kind of lost track of the video side of things eventually, and I was just watching the comments section.
Oh, yeah, that's, ooh, wish we had that. The importance of building that community and if you have the ability to build that community with that engagement where you've got an audience of millions but thousands of people were engaging with them every single minute and actually they weren't engaging with them.
They're engaging with each other in the comment section. And if you can use your podcast to leverage building a community like that, be it in the comment section of YouTube or Spotify has just launched that, be it in a Slack group, if you're a professional podcast or Discord or any other platform that you can associate with your podcast where people, like minded people can get together and build a community, that is a powerful tool.
I was just looking at those comments, ticking up and going, Oh man, podcasts really need to get on that community building side
[00:42:30] Jackie: of things. When you give a place for people to engage and a podcast is a conversation, it's a two way conversation and so often the other side is silent. Right, like we need more places to engage.
[00:42:41] Harry: I think what Erin you said about the audience, I think it's so much of it is about who the audience is and what they care about and where they hang out and where they consume content. And I think that it's just an increasingly important place to be discovered and serve an audience in a slightly different way.
And I mean, we're doing it here as well. Like, so we're sitting here kind of bitching on H3, but like what we've done is sat down and had a kind of unguided conversation for an hour. And now what we're going to do that they don't do is edit it down to something. Smaller. So it'd be kind of interesting to see how this comes out and whether we come out of it looking polished, looking like even remotely, uh, like this is worth consuming.
Yeah. And also whether this will be worth consuming in video versus audio. Like will there be a benefit for us having sat here in the studio and recorded it versus just getting on a Riverside recording? It's really interesting. It's changing all the time and we are certainly learning about it. Actively right now.
[00:43:32] Jackie: Cool. Well, thank you guys so much for the conversation. Again, I have so many other questions that are coming to mind, but I am not going to ask them, uh, right now. So, I appreciate it. And, uh, if you want to comment on Spotify, you can now. Comment on Spotify. Let's build that community. Thank you so much.
Thanks, Jackie. Thanks, Jackie.