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Random people, random topics, talking on random sidewalks in the City of Saginaw, Michigan.
We're really recording, but just so I don't accidentally forget to do that because that's embarrassing. Not that I've ever done that before because I have. Let's be a professional here, Phil. Can you say your first and last name, spell both of those? Tell me a little bit about what you're doing now in life, and I'm just gonna ignore you and love this.
Speaker 2:Okay. I am Jessica Shepherd. That's j e s s I c a. Last name, s h e p h e r d. And I am a Saginaw native who left for a while and came back and worked for Mlive for a long time.
Speaker 1:Now And you just got a new job?
Speaker 2:I did. Yeah. I'm working at Spicer Group.
Speaker 1:Doing what?
Speaker 2:Like a copywriter, marketing copywriter, so writing. I actually was I had to read a proposal about the Saginaw County master plan this morning. Really? Oh. So I was like, actually, I kinda like this.
Speaker 1:I love that for you because when when I read both your love letters to Saginaw, I was like, yeah. She she's a good writer. You're like, you're very you're very clear and succinct.
Speaker 2:Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:Like, sometime with with some personality because sometimes you get clear and succinct and it's and it's very it's not not that engaging. But but you do such a great job of of be like, being a writer and really kind of embodying, like, that creative nonfiction without it also being self centered. Look at my florid descriptions of the Saginaw River. Like, you you cut right to the point. So I really like you as a writer.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to say that on there.
Speaker 2:Thank you. That means a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Jessica Shepherd, welcome home.
Speaker 2:Hi. Thank you. It's so good to be here and in this cool building. I've never been in this this little spot. You've got a nice spot here.
Speaker 1:Case Funeral Home. I hear that it's the most haunted building in Saginaw.
Speaker 2:I was gonna ask if you're like a ghost guy because if you are, this would be like Yeah. Potentially real spooky for you.
Speaker 1:So I I need to be careful about what I say because the haunted Saginaw folks work upstairs. Oh, okay. So I'm I I don't know if I'm a ghost guy. I haven't heard any ghosts in here.
Speaker 2:Okay. Alright. Maybe they went upstairs when the the haunted people went upstairs.
Speaker 1:Moved upstairs with their friends.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 1:We ran into each other at CMURC, like, shortly after you moved back. Yeah. And I loved your vibe. You're so friendly. And then you posted this, like, love letter to Saginaw number two, your second love letter to Saginaw, and we'll talk about both of those in a second.
Speaker 1:And then Justin Ingle got into the comments and he said, because you had moved away and then he came back, he said, we've been a little less without you, but we're all better now.
Speaker 2:Wow. And
Speaker 1:I thought that was
Speaker 2:so sweet. That's so Justin. He's such a good friend and a great great writer and journalist. What what a guy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, that was really sweet. I think overstated perhaps, but I do truly think that that might be how Justin felt personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Did you guys meet at the news? Or, like, how did you and Justin meet?
Speaker 2:So I actually before I worked for Mlive, I worked for WSGW. That was like my first real big girl job after going into broadcasting. And he was covering Saginaw City Council for a while kind of as a fill in, and I was cover for MLive. He was working for MLive doing that, and I was I was covering it for WSGW. So we had to sit at the same little table, and we just became fast friends.
Speaker 2:And then he kinda convinced me to apply to work at MLive, and I was very happy I did that. I'd done worked there for ten years, and that was fantastic and life changing in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:So Was it always your goal to get into journalism?
Speaker 2:No. So I went into broadcasting specifically. I wanted to do radio initially before, like, when I was in school for it, I thought I wanted to be in music radio, you know, and and then Howard Sharper, who I'm not sure if you know, but he a lot of he's a Saginaw guy that a lot of Saginaw people know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Everybody heard me say no in it before cringing right now. Like, Phil. Did know Howard.
Speaker 2:He did die several years back. So Exciting. Maybe you didn't get the chance, but he worked at Delta Public Broadcasting for a long time, and he told me, like, hey. You really have a knack for talking on air. I think you'd be good at news.
Speaker 2:And so he also con him and Lee Monday, which is a great on air name, who also worked there, convinced me to call WSGW and just be like, will you give me a job, please? And they did for some reason. So I went to news radio and then, yeah, then Justin Angle convinced me to apply for, you know, a a more traditional journalism job in the writing space. And I was like, I don't know if I can do this, but apparently, I did alright. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So Good job, you.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 1:I wish I had a fun on air name. Like Lee Monday. Lee Monday. Like all the like NPR, must be a prerequisite on resumes that you have to have a very distinguished name.
Speaker 2:Yes. Oh, they have the best names on PR. And yeah, I know Jessica Shepherd's like pretty, it's kind of like, it's fine. I like people can say it, people can never spell it, people can say it.
Speaker 1:That's true. It is a little tricky. It's kind of a minefield of spelling. You can go up a lot of different ways, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. What about your does your last name get
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Messed with a
Speaker 1:lot? Yeah. Like, lately, though, people have been crushing it. They're like, Ike. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Feel seen.
Speaker 2:If you say Ike, they can't spell it, I bet. No. No.
Speaker 1:Okay. No. It's a it's a it's a very random Yeah. One syllable name. I wanna start with why you left Saginaw.
Speaker 1:I mean, you were born here, you lived here for thirty years. Yeah. And then you then you wrote something like, I I'm I'm leaving. I'm not escaping. Like, where did you leave to and why'd you leave?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So actually, I left kind of it was connected to MLive. Why I left not my job, but my partner who I met through MLive, Mark Tower. He's a great guy too. He is a great guy.
Speaker 2:I would say people when he said he was leaving the Saginaw News and, like, he there was such an outpouring. Like, people just loved him. He did such a great job covering the community. People were so upset. So I would I would expect people to be happier to hear he's around again.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But he got kind of a promotion, and it was in Grand Rapids. It was still Mlive. It was in Grand Rapids. That's where he is from initially.
Speaker 2:So we moved over there, and then we moved to Kalamazoo because he got promoted again till the editor. It wasn't called editor at the time, but I always just say editor of the Kalamazoo Gazette. Yeah. And so we lived there for a handful of years. And so, yeah, I don't I don't know where life would have gone if I would have decided to leave Saginaw at all if it weren't for those, you know, his work and and the fact that my work could jump over there because I was working for a statewide team for I'm Live, and it all worked out that way.
Speaker 2:So I'm not sure if I would have left just to leave ever, but
Speaker 1:The opportunities kind of presented themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I see that. And so you moved to Grand Rapids, you moved to Kalamazoo, and then you decide, let's sell all our earthly possessions and live in an RV.
Speaker 2:Yes. And we really did. Honestly, time, like we were in the we were living in the RV for two and a half years. It might feel longer in my brain the the couple of months that we had to get rid of all the stuff because it was
Speaker 1:Yeah. What was that like? I mean, everybody's like, oh, I just I wanna live in a van for the rest of my life. But then then do you think I need to get rid of all of my things?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You have to you have to either store it, which like some people do, but like storing that much stuff is really expensive. And when you actually go through all your stuff, you're like, most of this is junk. What am I doing with this?
Speaker 1:I've never worn any of these clothes for the last four years. I'm not going to.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I was really happy. I mean, it we did Facebook Marketplace. We donated a bunch of stuff. A lot of it did end up just being donated.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day, I was like, I was so glad I did that. I am hoping I will never go back to filling a house with stuff that I don't appreciate. What's that woman's name who's like
Speaker 1:Marie Kondo.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, does it spark joy? Like, that was kind of my, like, do any of these things spark joy? And some things you need that don't spark joy because I don't know.
Speaker 1:Your washing machine. You don't love it. But yeah. A hammer.
Speaker 2:Like, you might need those. It does not it does not spark joy in me. Maybe it sparks joy in all day.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Maybe it's a really good hammer.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Does it maybe if it was like bright pink, maybe I'd be like, oh, this kinda sparks more joy than the regular hammer.
Speaker 1:Covered sequins and sparkles. Yeah. There we go. So how did it how did it first come about? Like, you guys moved to Kalamazoo.
Speaker 1:Do you remember the first, like, serious conversation you had about living in an RV?
Speaker 2:So I think I joked about because you've seen everyone's kinda seen that, like, van life thing that started happening. Yeah. And I think I made just a joke. Just an offhand joke. I never thought it would go anywhere.
Speaker 2:And it's one of those things. Yeah. You you say it, you put it out into the world, and you think that didn't and then you're like, but wait, could we do that? Then it just kinda became this little thing we'd bring back up for fun, and it it started to become a real thing. Especially because speaking about community and and all of that, I love Kalamazoo.
Speaker 2:I there are so many great things going on there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That's
Speaker 2:true. I never felt at home. I liked our house out there a lot. I never started to get that feeling of this is my place. I felt like I was in someone else's place, and it was fun, and I was having a good time.
Speaker 2:And I think me and Mark kind of shared that. And so I think that was part of the thought of maybe this isn't our place. But if this isn't our place, what are we gonna do? And we both love to travel. So the RV thing just it it snowballed into a real thing.
Speaker 1:To to that point, we were talking before recording about the the traveling that I do, and I'm sure that we're we'll talk about this more later, but you you go to really cool places and Charleston, Greenville, Ash, like all of these places where everybody goes and they're kind of the pinnacle of cool, and they are very cool. But it's it cannot be overstated how important it is to feel like you are home somewhere. And and, you know, those amenities and a thousand places to eat and, you know, the history and the experiences, like, of those are very important to quality of life. But that sense of belonging, man, it's just it's something human human beings crave and, like, we desperately need. Yeah.
Speaker 1:We need fun places to eat, but feeling part of a community? Right.
Speaker 2:And I don't I don't think I appreciated that for a long time because I lived in Saginaw my first thirty years of life. I don't I don't think I even realized how much I felt like it was my play I just had no comparison. I had nothing else.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So coming back, I it really does feel, oh, wow. I remember this. I like, all of this is my stuff. It feels like my streets, my Scottish inn, my you know? It just feels like home.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like a comfy chair. It might be a little rough around the edges in places, but it's your comfy chair.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you you sell all your worldly belongings.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You hop in the RV. Like, like, you're you're working remote during this time or
Speaker 2:We actually did this weird thing. We did some remote work too, but we did this thing called work camping where you apply for these jobs, usually in places you really wanna take your RV and and go hang out. So we worked for our first place was a campground in Northern California. And so we lived at the campground for six months and worked at the campground. And they gave us like free place to stay and paid us.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, it's like kind of this trade off. I I think it used to be a lot of retirees would do it like they'd help out at the campground. It's grown a lot, I think, because so many people have, after the pandemic, have gotten really into RVing or moved into RVs. It's it's become more of a thing. So, yeah, we went to different places and did that.
Speaker 2:We sold Christmas trees in South Florida one winter. We well, we didn't sell them, but we're part of a a team that sold Christmas trees. And then we worked at cabins that were like a mile outside of the border of Grand Teton National Park for summer. So, we we got to see some cool things and meet some new people and do some interesting jobs. And then, yeah, we would also do some online work along the way and all of that.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:I actually I kinda like this because you're you're getting additional experiences that you wouldn't have otherwise. Like, typically, the assumption is that if you're traveling like that, you're you're working remote at your job and you're you're, you know, bashing away at a laptop on the beach in Costa Rica or whatever it is. And well, like, that that seems very cool. I would also imagine it's a little bit isolating in the fact like, yeah, you're in all of these places, but you don't know anybody and you're not really having like interaction with like intentional interaction. Like, there are other avenues for that but it's different saying that I sold Christmas trees in South Florida.
Speaker 1:You know, like, it's just a different experience.
Speaker 2:And getting to work with new people. When when you're like on a team with people, you meet new people. When you're checking people into a campground, you're meeting new people. And yeah. So I really enjoyed that.
Speaker 2:I thought it was fun. And I'm the kind of person who I love trying like new jobs, new things. Like, I wanna know what everyone's job is like. So that was kind of fun to put myself in that position.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. That is super fun. So how long were you traveling for and like, where all did you go?
Speaker 2:So, yeah. So full time traveling was like two and a half years. And yeah, we started in Northern California, but I mean, we went straight from Kalamazoo to Northern California. So we went like through, you know, a ton of places, including for some reason on that trip, I remember Amarillo, Texas really well. And it was so windy there, and they're like, this isn't even very windy.
Speaker 2:And I was like, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I It's like don't the Michigan cold. Like Like Yeah. Like it's zero degrees out and everybody's it's not even that cold when really we're all freezing. Yeah. We're all complaining about how cold it is.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But you can't let other people see that.
Speaker 1:You can't let the outsiders. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah. So we we hung out in Northern California, then we went all the way to Southern Florida for that winter. So, yeah, we we traveled again, and we saw all you know, we made it a point to stop at a ton of national parks and and and big cities and different things. And then we went back over to Wyoming for the next summer. Well, actually, stayed in Georgia for a while.
Speaker 2:And then we went to Wyoming, stayed at Grand Teton, and it's when people are like, what was your favorite? And I just love Grand Teton National Park so much. We get to hang out at Yellowstone too, also very cool. But Grand Teton, we hiked a bunch there, and it's just so beautiful, and I fell in love with that. But and then we went to New Mexico for a winter.
Speaker 2:And I I was a substitute teacher for a short amount of time.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was actually a lot of fun. Nice. And yeah. And then then we started kind of very slowly making our way back and seeing more like I saw the Grand Canyon for the first time. I hadn't been, which it is grand.
Speaker 2:I will say that. Right. Like, I think I thought it was like an overrated stop because all the Grand Canyon, but no,
Speaker 1:it's I have heard that it's overrated. People say, yeah, you drive out there and you see it and it's so big. And then you're either you have to what they said was it's overrated if you go to just look at it. Like, you have if if you're booking a tour or something, you're participating in some way, then they say that it's worth it. But if you go just to look at it, you look at it, and you're like, yeah, this is big.
Speaker 1:Now what do we do?
Speaker 2:Right. Right. Well, yeah. If you literally drive there to just go stand on the edge and go, oh, I've seen it.
Speaker 1:Wow. Canyon is pretty grand.
Speaker 2:But yeah, if you do some hiking or or something else, I think they do mule rides Yeah. Down into the canyon. That'd be pretty cool. I did not do that. But I would say it was it was just beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's one of those things that the photos don't do it justice because it's like too big. It's too
Speaker 1:Yeah. Much. See, think about that in photography kind of the world that I'm in. Like, you think about like Ansel Adams, everybody talks about Ansel Adams and his, you know, photography of Yosemite and
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And and I love that. You know, if you're a landscape photographer, awesome. But to me, it doesn't really do it just like, you gotta be at the the foot of that cliff or you gotta be staring off the edge of the Grand Canyon to really feel what that's like or sitting at the base of a 300 foot tall redwood tree. Like, you gotta see the the immensity of it to really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:For sure. I agree with that completely. That's why I'm more drawn to photographs that are like portraits or
Speaker 1:Yeah. Me too.
Speaker 2:Things like that. Because, yeah, the landscapes, like, they're beautiful, but yet it's not
Speaker 1:You gotta be there. You gotta you gotta put your feet in the dirt. You gotta wrap your arms around the tree and be like, oh my goodness. Yeah. I will never see a tree like this again in my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're traveling around. Was it always your goal to come back, or did you feel like we were gonna be on the road for the next ten years and this is our life or
Speaker 2:tell me. So we were kind of just playing it as it came. We we didn't really have a plan, you know? We, you know, we don't have kids. We didn't at the time have a lot of responsibility.
Speaker 2:We were just like going for it. Yeah. So we decided to just go on what felt right. We didn't know how long things would feel right being on the road. We didn't know if we you know, we met people who have been doing it for ten years, fifteen years, full time, like full time RV ten, fifteen, or more years, which is amazing to me.
Speaker 1:Before RVing and van life was cool.
Speaker 2:Right. Yeah. Like pioneers of this. Right? And they love it.
Speaker 2:Like, they are all in. I think at some point, I realized I felt like I was in limbo. I enjoyed it, but it's almost like when you're on vacation and you know that your real life is there, and maybe that's annoying in some way. Oh, I have to go back to real life. But then there was something in my brain I couldn't click off.
Speaker 2:This is real life. This is real life.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:We're traveling around. There's no real home base at that point. And I think I just felt like I was in this weird space of
Speaker 1:Perpetual Sunday scaries.
Speaker 2:It well, or perpetual, like, Friday night, and then but then there's no Monday or something. Yeah. I don't know. And I it it just felt like I was on an adventure. It didn't feel permanent, and I think there was and I call myself low maintenance, but an RV, like, we upgrade we started in a pretty small RV because it's just the two of us, you know, no pets.
Speaker 2:A lot of people have pets in the RVs. We didn't have any pets in the RV. And we started off in a really small one and quickly, were like, okay, this isn't gonna work. So we got one a little bigger, but still it's it's not a lot of room. And I yeah.
Speaker 2:I call myself low maintenance, but maybe I'm not flow maintenance enough to live. Although some of these RVs are really fancy. I'm also cheap. I'm cheap, and I say I'm low maintenance, but the really fancy RV is like, maybe I would have been like, oh, this is enough. But still, it's not enough.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I just every once in a while, kick around the idea of the van life, RV life. And I just saw one the other day. It was like a $180,000 for this van. Oh, no. And I was like, like, I I mean, like, what is more American than, like, the great American road trip in a $200,000 Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Van.
Speaker 2:Yeah. On your on your line of credit that you'll have to pay back, but that's, like, very American. I'm gonna buy this very Yeah. So, yeah, I also
Speaker 1:I can't actually get in my car and do that right now. Have to buy a house on wheels and then I can do that.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yes. And, yeah, and some, you know, some people do that and and more power to them. But, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was fun for a while, and I would I think the people who have it right are like people who do it for like winter, but then they have a regular this is like mostly, again, retirees who have saved up for this and figured it all out, but do like winter in an RV and then summer, you know, at their house or whatever. Yeah. And that's a really cool stuff.
Speaker 1:I like that. And I before we go on, if you do have a $200,000 van, I love that for you.
Speaker 2:Yes. Good for you. This is awesome.
Speaker 1:This is jealousy talking. Yes. I wish that I could also have Yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially though, coming from the mindset of we live in Saginaw, like a $200,000 house here is a may like, that's like the most amazing house, which is not like a lot of places are way more expensive than that. But here, that's like a fortune.
Speaker 1:You you talked about this idea of being in kind of this perpetual purgatory of Yeah. Of the look, I I never really feel grounded. And every once in a while when I'm traveling for work, I'll be I'll be driving my rental car and I get to the intersection and I look around and I think, where am I? Like, oh, I'm in I'm in Charlotte Yeah. North Carolina, and I'm here for, like, it it and it and that sounds crazy, but I have a couple other friends who also travel for work and they say the same thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, you hop on the plane and you land in the place and you go to the thing and you're like, oh my goodness. Where am I? This is kinda weird unmooring of like, where am I in time and where am I in place and environment and who are these people I do not know. Right.
Speaker 1:It's really it can be disorienting in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Oh, for sure. And I would wake up in the RV, looked which to the like the the with the curtains, it's like the bedroom of the RV. It looks the same. So then you wake up and if you've been traveling a lot for a little while, like, you're traveling across the country, you're like, wait, where am I? Am I in Nebraska?
Speaker 2:Where am I? I don't know
Speaker 1:where I'm I at a rest stop
Speaker 2:in Yes.
Speaker 1:Honey, where are we?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Exactly. And it's okay. Wait. Now I know where I am.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, that can be a little I don't know. I don't know what Freud would say about what that means when like you don't know where you are or you feel less like yourself because you don't
Speaker 1:know where feel like you that could be like a young thing too. He would he would go like deep into the subconscious Yes. Yeah. Talk about the shadow. So as you guys are driving around, when does the conversation start becoming, hey, maybe this has been awesome, but maybe we should find a home or move back or however that's done.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think at some point, we realized work camping probably wasn't what we want. We didn't really wanna keep doing that. So we thought maybe we could just keep then we started doing other kinds of jobs and other kinds of online work and continuing to travel a little bit.
Speaker 1:Did it feel hard to feel fulfilled in that work? Or what was the thing that said, we I don't know if we wanna keep doing this.
Speaker 2:No. So so it's hard when you like you're so when you have a workplace, like a traditional workplace and you're going to work, your workplace is pretty constant and you know the people and you kind of know what to expect. But everything changes so much in these work camping experiences and everyone's trying to come together, get to know each other, get to feel each other out in such a short period of time. So the all of the working elements of working together and figuring out, by the time you start figuring it out, you're almost done. And then it just it feel so that's a little tough, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I would feel constantly not good at what I'm doing. Right.
Speaker 2:So it's and then try yeah. Just trying to navigate, like, who does what and, like, whose work style works with other person.
Speaker 1:True. Like, you're constantly learning not only about the people, but, like, how to work with the people. It's always changing. And yeah. Well
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So there's there was a lot of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like being good at a thing I'm doing. I like, you know, working well with other people. So there were just some things standing in the way of making those perfect work environments and but it was fun. It was fun while we did it. We just couldn't see ourselves like, oh, a different job every, like, six months for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. So when do you start talking about, hey, we should move back? Was it move back to Saginaw or was it like we just need to find a place to live?
Speaker 2:So we the conversation started with where do we want to live? Where do we wanna go? And there was no everyone always thought that once we were on the road, we would find that we would be like, oh, we really like this place. We really liked every play. That's the thing.
Speaker 2:Like, every place is cool in some way. There are there are huge advantages to every place that I have ever been, and maybe that's part of the Saginaw thing, the loving Saginaw and getting them. Things are going to be good and bad. There's gonna be good and bad in everything, and you have to make sure to focus on the good, find the good. So there were so many places that were great, but none of them seemed like this is it.
Speaker 2:This is the place. And so then the conversation started becoming, well, where where could we go? Where would make sense? And we just kept coming back to Saginaw as an option. And Mark is not originally from Saginaw.
Speaker 2:Like I said, he's from the Grand Rapids area. But when he first moved here for work in 2012, he said, yeah, it was just such a friendly place. Like, felt this energy he hadn't and he lived in a handful of other places at that point. And and he just he really enjoyed the energy here. And and also, will say the price is right too.
Speaker 2:Like, the country is so hard to live in for everyone right now when it comes to rent, when it comes to buying houses. Everything's expensive. We love Saginaw. We could come back to Saginaw and afford it and not feel like we were trapped, you know, like in mountain of debt. So all of that coming together is it felt like this is where we were supposed to be.
Speaker 1:I love what you said. I I I love everything that you just said. I I'm thinking about what you said about, like, there's there's good in every place Yes. And there's bad in every place. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that is absolutely the truth. I like, I end up in a new city and I'm like, oh my god. This place is so great. Look at this downtown and this is and like the and then you go to the next place, you're like, oh, this this these restaurants are so great and look at all of this food. And then you go to the next one and say, oh, this nightlife, look at all the people walking around it past 9PM.
Speaker 1:This is so great. And it's and over time, you you become aware of that part of it. Like, you can go you can see yourself in a lot of places, and there's so much good in so many places, and and it's really easy. And I'm not faulting anybody because if if you don't if you don't experience a lot of cities, like, I can't I I before this, like, I never would have thought that. Like, it's that is true.
Speaker 1:And I think the the cliche about growing where you're planted, like, the why that why that makes sense is that. It's like there's there's always gonna be good and there's always gonna be bad in a place. And there's gonna you go to the next place and something else is good and something else is bad. You go to the next place, something else is good, something is so it really comes down to choosing choosing your good and choosing your bad. Like, For sure.
Speaker 1:Like, the grass is greener everywhere, and so you just have to learn to the grass is also greener here, and I'm is this place for me? And I think that that's the truth in that Grow Your Your Your Planet. Mhmm. I also love what were you what were you talking about after that? I blanked.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, I'll The put my
Speaker 2:good and the bad, and well, Mark thought it was really frustrating.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The energy. So Mark what I love about Mark too, Mark except my Facebook friend request. I I think I saw Ewan.
Speaker 2:He's so bad at social media. But, yes, I will tell him.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Tell him because we should be friends, I love that Mark also came from Grand Rapids and and felt the energy here because, like, you look at what's happening in Grand Rapids right now and the growth of it and
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's it's the cool place to be. You know? There's so much momentum in in Detroit Metro, Detroit City of and then Grand Rapids, Grand Rapids Metro. And that's where people sit or thinking, like, that's where I gotta go. And here Mark comes here and says, there's there's an energy here that I don't feel, and that's exactly what I tell people too.
Speaker 1:There's and I use this phrase all the time. Like, there's something in the dirt and water and sagging off that that makes you feel a certain way. And it's really hard to put your finger on. You can't look look around and say, look at look, we have 10,000 places to eat and look at all of these immaculate, you know, insert whatever asset or amenity you want, but you just you come and you you it gets in your blood and Right. It's hard to shake.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I think I think how I described it in my love letter part two when I came back was that it's both genuine but not put on. Not fake. It's well, obviously, it's genuine.
Speaker 2:It's friendly, but not put on. Yeah. So it's like a genuine, like, friendliness that comes naturally to people here. They don't they're not like they're not trying to be like, oh, how are you? How are the kids?
Speaker 1:It's like down south, and I love my my South Carolina folks, but when they're like, bless your heart. You know that that's not what they mean.
Speaker 2:And here, it's just yeah. You could start talking to whoever on the street, and like, it doesn't feel like they're trying hard. It doesn't feel awkward. It's just like they're just being real with you and it's cool and it's yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's something about that that's lovely.
Speaker 1:From from my experience this is what I think it is from my experience interviewing folks is that there is a certain amount of honesty and transparency and really, this is who I am as a person Right. That comes from people who have been through some stuff. Oh, yeah. Know, like, with that when you've when you've lived through some tough things, either as an individual or as a community, it kind of dissolves some of the the pretentiousness that Yes. It's not like we we don't have time to be us right here.
Speaker 1:So I'll hold that door for you. I'll I'll give you that cup of soup for free. I'll have that conversation because this is who we are as people. And that's kind of what it comes across to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I think I was explain going deeper talking to someone about this topic, and I said, having lived in other places, and I won't call a place out by name at all. Yeah. But there are some places that have a good reputation.
Speaker 2:And when they do, they're working like, everyone's just working to protect that. So no one's being genuine. No one's having real conversations. Everyone's only trying to protect the reputation of the place and make it look a certain way. Saginaw has no need for that because everyone outside of here has so many rude things to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We know what the reputation is. We know what you think about us. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so we don't have we're not gonna put on anything, and the peep people who care, care so much, and they want to work to make it better. They're not worried about putting anything on, putting on a reputation, making anything look a certain way. They're doing hard work. Mhmm. They're it's like Kevin Rooker and that park that he lived next to, and he just went over there and he would take care of it, and it was not about, you know, making anything seem it was that this is my community and I'm gonna help.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, like, Kevin is such a great example of so many folks in in this community. Like, they're not sending out press releases every time they go and clean up a park or they do the thing or they start the foundation or they volunteer at the school, like they just go and do it. And then they do it and they do it, and then forty years goes by, and then they pass away, and then it comes out, oh, they've mentored 3,000 young men in the city of Saginaw, and nobody really knew except for those 3,000 young men because there wasn't like lights and cameras and press releases and things like that. No offense to people with press releases, but like that's like that's a quiet kind of yeah.
Speaker 1:This is we are from Saginaw, and this is what we do. Yeah. We're gonna help. Yeah. We're gonna help.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So who who first suggested moving back to Saginaw?
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know. I might have brought it up first. It is my hometown. My family lives here. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I might have brought it up first or just started looking at, like, real estate listings and then being like, look at these real estate listings.
Speaker 1:The Zillow links and
Speaker 2:And then having, you know, all of us think we're the main character in our heads or whatever. So maybe I'm just like remembering it that way or like allowing Mark to blame me later if he's like, why'd we come back here? No. I'm just kidding. He wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2:But no, I think maybe. But, yeah, it did organic like, with a lot of people ask me and Mark this about, like, the RV thing about, like, decisions we make. And I don't know if we just have mind meld after all these years, but it does seem like we both kind of inch toward conclusions together.
Speaker 1:So So you find a house. Mhmm. You do you sell the RV, or do you still have it?
Speaker 2:We have it right now. We will probably be selling it in the spring. Winter in Michigan, not the best place not the best place to dive to sell an RV. So
Speaker 1:So wink wink if you're listening to this and wanna start your RV life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Come come check out our RV. I do love that RV. It's it it's been good.
Speaker 1:Do you did you name it? Does it have a name?
Speaker 2:Yes. So our it's not as good. Our first RV had a better name because it was a Coachman. And so I I named it Craig T. Nelson because the show coach, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So that was Craig T. Nelson. So our new one's Seymour because it's a sightseer and then I couldn't I didn't know if it was Seymour from like the Simps like Seymour Skinner from the Simpsons or there were like four Seymours that we were talking about when
Speaker 1:we were there. Seeing more of the country. Exactly. I like that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Seymour.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's kinda like a dad joke. Yeah. Like a rolling dad joke.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1:So when did you move back officially?
Speaker 2:This is gonna get into a weird little off shoot here.
Speaker 1:Let's get weird.
Speaker 2:We bought the house at the beginning of September, but then we almost immediate well, not almost immediately, but pretty shortly after that left to go work the beet harvest. So we went we went You couldn't
Speaker 1:shake that itinerant worker. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was like our last work camping job. We're like, we'll just go work the beet harvest real quick. So we did that also.
Speaker 1:You gotta get it out of your system like one last hurrah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Who doesn't wanna go see the beets? I mean
Speaker 1:What did you do? What did you guys do? So Mark Is this for Michigan Sugar?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Mark ended up being like an operator of one of the big pie beet pilers. And then I was down on the ground and like, I would talk to the truckers and they'd give me a ticket and I'd take a sample of their beets and tie up the sample and then make sure the beets are going into the pile correctly.
Speaker 2:But yeah. So I have that to put on my resume now is beet well, I don't even remember what it was. Tear taker. I was a tear taker for the beet harvest. So Wow.
Speaker 1:So so in your new gig at Spicer, like, you have your coworkers come in and see you, like, sleeping on the floor in a sleeping bag or whatever, like, that feel like what? Yeah. I was just just feeling like my home environment. So you moved back in September and you described it in your second love letter and folks that you should read both of these and they're on Saginaw News.
Speaker 2:Yeah. On life.com.
Speaker 1:Yeah. If you just search for love letter to Saginaw, Jessica Shepherd, you'll find it. You you in your most recent one, you said being back in Saginaw is like getting a hug from an old friend. It's not too tight, but they use both arms.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't know where that came from. That was one of those I sat down and I just started writing and it just fell out, you know? I love it. Thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I I like, initially, my my reflex is to ask you what you mean by that, but I think sometimes when we explain things, it takes away some So of the let so let's but not we you you so you you grew up here thirty years. You moved away for for a bunch of years. You came back. Did did your perception of Saginaw change the second second time around?
Speaker 1:Was it reinforced from the first time around? I'm just curious to hear, like, your understanding of this community now that you're back in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I would say I see even more of the little sparkle. Like, I feel like more people have joined, like, team get excited excited about about Saginaw Saginaw probably probably because because of of people people like like Jamie Jamie Forbes, Forbes and you. The work you do, Phil, is, like, very positive and I think changing perception and and showing people, like, all the cool things that are happening in Saginaw. And, yeah, I just felt, you know and I would say Old Town looks really great.
Speaker 2:Some of the changes there, although that was kind of happening when I left.
Speaker 1:But Mhmm.
Speaker 2:There are new biz like the pizza.
Speaker 1:Old world. Good. Yeah. You can check out our interview with Eric here on this season.
Speaker 2:Alright.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's yeah. The food the food is in Old Town considering especially considering how small it is, it's just out of this world. Yeah. You just get some of the greatest food.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so, you know, a lot the same, but I do think there have there are more and some younger, like, Saginaw diehards now who who have popped up, who have come on board. So I think that's that's fantastic, and I think things are moving in a great direction.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you got some writing gigs back at the Saginaw News when you came back. Yeah. And this second Love Letter was kind of like your finale for now.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes.
Speaker 1:Because what are you doing now?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm working at Spicer Group. I'm a marketing copywriter. So I'm working in an office right in downtown, which I'm like very excited about. Cool.
Speaker 2:Right across from SVRC, another great Saginaw thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. All the food in Yes. There, Killer. You can eat at a different place every day of the week for weeks.
Speaker 2:It's fantastic. Yeah. If you, like, are listening to this and you have not been in there yet, please just go there.
Speaker 1:You gotta go. Just go. You gotta go. You if yes. I'm not gonna get on my soapbox because I'm tempted.
Speaker 1:But you're like, you you gotta go. Especially if you're if you're somebody I wanna I wanna loop it into the theme of this conversation. Especially if you're somebody who's like, man, I'm like, there's there's not really anything good here and, you know, why don't we have x y z? This community has x y z. Right.
Speaker 1:I just wanna encourage you, if you're not experiencing the things that the community does have.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Like, you got to. You you have to. You you gotta go to these places. You got to eat. SVRC, Frawley, every place in Old Town.
Speaker 1:You got you got if if if you don't want to or you can't afford that, go find a group to volunteer with or go to an event or put yourself out into the community. And and what you what's gonna happen is, I think, one or two things. Like, one, you're gonna prove to yourself, you're gonna prove to yourself that maybe this place isn't for me. Maybe I gotta go looking or maybe I have an itch. Maybe I like it, but, like, the itch is just too strong and I'd like, I gotta go to, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Go and do it. Like, you you hopped in an RV
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you traveled the country and you came back. And, like, people, if you have that itch to scratch, go forth and see the world, and we'd love for you to come back. So experiencing the community is gonna prove to you the feeling that you're having as opposed to just like sitting in your house and going, man, Saginaw, like, why aren't you doing all these things for me? Right. So go out there.
Speaker 1:Or what's gonna the other thing that's gonna happen is you you just might fall in love with it.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Or find meet your new best friend
Speaker 1:or who no. It's gonna it's gonna change your life in some way. Yes. Like, it might be a huge way. You might get a new job.
Speaker 1:Yes. It might change it in a very personal way, like you said. Like, might make a new friend. Like Yeah. Counter Cruise, man.
Speaker 1:Like, if you're struggling, like, getting in involved in the community, go to Facebook, type in Counter Cruise. It's a bike group. Follow them, and then they're gonna post during the summer. Like, hey, guys. We're gonna have our Monday night rides and meet up.
Speaker 1:It's free. You can even say, I don't have a bike. Can anybody loan me a bike? And there's gonna be 50 people going, I've got an extra bike. Meet me there.
Speaker 1:Or what size bike are you? Or what color bike do you want? Because I've got three. And you're gonna ride a bike around with people, and you're gonna be like, oh, this is kinda dope.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:So just just get yourself out in the community.
Speaker 2:Oh, for sure. And I think a lot of people complain and then don't even attempt to look for things or try new things. Like, I'm not saying this woman complains, and she will not know who she is. I'm sure she will not hear this, but she was in front of me one day. I went to Brad Gal to get something for someone, and there was this woman in front of me.
Speaker 2:And as she was checking out, she said to the clerk, I didn't know you were here. What's the deal? You should advertise. You should advertise. I had no idea you were here.
Speaker 2:And I was thinking to myself, I hadn't been living here since this business had been opened, and all I heard about was this business. So I don't know where this woman was or why she didn't know that was there. But Mhmm. You know, there are so many things going on. And, if you haven't been into Brett Yell, there's another one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. All of old Town. Yeah. Just do a whole little loop around old Town to eat everything because it's delicious. But yeah, the you should advertise.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're unhappy with the place you are, like when we were traveling, we had to find things on our own. Right? So it's if you want to find something, if you're missing something, look for it. Try and try and find something new that excites you even in your own town, you know?
Speaker 1:Yep. Yeah. Especially and like I think about social media, it kind of unconsciously trains us to be, like, served everything that we need. So I just open up my phone and all of the information that I need to exist on this planet is is given to me, and then it's up to all of the billion news agencies, small businesses, government agencies to, like, somehow find its way under that newsfeed, and it's just that's just impossible. And so you so our community needs people to just intentionally search it out.
Speaker 1:Where to eat in Saginaw? Yeah. Or even get in the car and drive there and walk around. Like, I saw somebody in the comment section yesterday. I made a post and about a business that had closed, and this business has been closed for months.
Speaker 1:Right. And they were like, oh, that business closed? Like, I get it. Yeah. Like, I get it.
Speaker 1:But at the same same time, like, we we have to be physically present in the places that we live to appreciate them. And the idea that we can experience our communities through our Facebook feeds is just it's it's the downfall of society. Like, it's just like we got we gotta physically go to the places.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We do. And there's this TikToker. I wish I could remember her name. I think it's something like Yo Toodles or something.
Speaker 2:But she's from Saginaw, and she said, she's even said on her page, I didn't think there was anything to eat in Saginaw. So then like, I started taking recommendations from people, and now she does TikTok TikTok's of just going to every restaurant around in Saginaw that she gets recommended and trying things and just telling people about it and telling people how good it is. And hey, I've never been here. I would have never probably gone here and just complained that there was nothing to eat in Saginaw. And now there's 5,000,000 things I like to eat in Saginaw because I went to all of these places.
Speaker 1:Yep. Yep. Can I ask you some random questions?
Speaker 2:I would love that.
Speaker 1:Like quick fire random No. Yeah. They're gonna be they're gonna be quick, but you know, there's not a time limit or anything like What are the good things, bad things about RV life?
Speaker 2:The good things are getting to see so much, getting to meet new people, and it's always exciting. The bad things are like dumping your tanks. It's not great. And, yeah, for me, it was that limbo feeling for sure. Just feeling like in between thing.
Speaker 1:Do you have a favorite unexpected story from RV life?
Speaker 2:Oh, geez. Well, I did have like a group of people like stop me and ask me to transport a shell for them across the country because they had painted a shell and it was kinda
Speaker 1:A shell?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Seashell? Yeah. It was like an adult home. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They like we were in some I thought they were stopping us to tell us we were doing something wrong with our And then they were like, we have this shell, and we saw that you have an RV. So if you're going somewhere cool, can you take this shell with you? Oh, really? It's really cute.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you still have the shell?
Speaker 2:I do, which I feel bad about because I meant to drop it, like, on the opposite side of the country when I was out there, but then I it like, I just Yeah.
Speaker 1:But maybe you're eventually getting there.
Speaker 2:That's true. And the shell has been a lot of places. It's been all over the country now. So
Speaker 1:It feels like almost a sacred object at that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I don't know why the shell thing came to mind. I'm sure there's 5,000,000 unexpected things that happened, but the shell was like very cute.
Speaker 1:Best road trip food.
Speaker 2:Best road trip food. Man, I wish I had a better one for this. For some reason, no food is coming to mind. I will say I'm vegetarian, so a lot of things that people are obsessed with are lost on me. Like, Mark would probably say he was, like, really excited to be by In N Out Burger.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But Or beef jerky.
Speaker 2:Beef jerky. I don't think anyone even offered us any, not that I would've
Speaker 1:accepted it. Come on, people. Sour Patch Kids too. I'm a I'm a Sour Patch Kids.
Speaker 2:I love Sour
Speaker 1:Patch Kids. Yeah. Give me a whole, like, family sized bag of those. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And but then your mouth does that thing if you eat too many of them.
Speaker 1:And then you also feel like crap after eating a family sized bag of sour biscuits.
Speaker 2:But sometimes you just have to do
Speaker 1:it anyway. Why do I feel so bad? Yeah. Well, you just ate 1,500 grams of sugar, bro. Best road trip song.
Speaker 2:Best road trip song. Well, I'm a big Tom Petty. But like, any Tom Petty, but like running down a dream, I think is the first thing that comes to mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's like,
Speaker 2:just get in the car. You start playing it. You feel like you're really going somewhere. Something cool is about to happen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know. That's apparently, that's my road trip voice. Too bad enough.
Speaker 1:This is my road trip voice. Tom Petty. Yeah. Anything by Tom Petty would be a great
Speaker 2:Yes. I love Tom Petty with all my heart.
Speaker 1:What assumption about RV life turned out to be completely wrong?
Speaker 2:That's I think the type of people I would meet in RV life, like, think I had, like, a specific thought about like very like hippie Yeah. Like hippie oriented I guess I
Speaker 1:have that assumption too.
Speaker 2:No. It's not that at all. It's so many different you will meet all and like, honestly, a lot more straight laced people than I thought, like, kind of the opposite of that.
Speaker 1:Would you describe it as different kinds of normal people?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And like sometimes not normal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't mean to use that like derogatory. Like, cancel me because I call people normal.
Speaker 2:No. No. But I get what you're saying. Like, it's just like there's there's all these but like a lot of pretty, yeah, run of the mill, like like people who live down the block from you who are just like people like Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not like eccentric. Like, I guess I thought people would be and I say that with love because I feel like I'm quirky and eccentric in a lot of ways. So Fair. Like, I kind of thought that it was gonna be that. And we there were a few people we met like that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, a lot of your more like parents who like their kids are in college now and they're like traveling or
Speaker 1:yeah. Because it is kind of the assumption that like everybody is like, I sold all my belongings and I'm just communing with the air
Speaker 2:now, man. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's not, man. Kids My moved out and we never got to see cool stuff. So now we get to.
Speaker 2:Yes. Exactly. That's 100% I I feel like that's probably the most people that we met were those people.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Is there a conversation that you and Mark had that wouldn't have happened had you lived in a house?
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess I'm not sure the conversation would have went the way it did for us to come back to Saginaw because we I mean, maybe we would have come back to Saginaw, but having that conversation about, like, where in the country do we want to go? And then we landed back on coming back to Saginaw. Mhmm. That wouldn't have been able to happen in that same way.
Speaker 1:Even, like, talking about, like, explicitly where to live because sometimes I think we don't really talk about our communities in deep ways. Like, it's kind of like where where can I get a job? Or where can the kids go to school? Like the functional parts of it. But as far as like community fabric and culture, like we don't really talk about those things as Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. No. And I think I have leaned toward, especially now, like seeing what I've seen with Sag and I lean toward that and thinking about that and I don't have kids. So I can't think of the kids thing. And for a while, I didn't effectively have a real job quote unquote, like a a I'm back to like a regular person job.
Speaker 2:Don't cancel me because I said regular person.
Speaker 1:But I just wanna say Spicer, you guys landed a great employee.
Speaker 2:Aw. Well, thanks.
Speaker 1:Jessica's so talented and you're gonna crush it.
Speaker 2:They are all they so far, they have just been the most lovely, wonderful people. I love that they're downtown Saginaw. I love that they're working on projects that are, you know, they help with playgrounds and bridges all kinds
Speaker 1:of Like, that's a company too that it's not like, you don't walk in there and order a cheeseburger from Spicer. So you you don't like, the greater community doesn't really have direct interaction with it, they're responsible for so much.
Speaker 2:They are.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like,
Speaker 2:tons of things. And I didn't even know, like, I'm I'm learning and I'm there now. And I'm like, oh, they helped with this. They helped with that. So it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Last question. Somebody somebody listening to this right now has the dream of living in the van in the RV. What is the thing that they don't realize about living in an RV or in a van?
Speaker 2:Oh, what they don't realize so this is something I tell people who like to or think they want to travel is if it's to like, the RV is not gonna solve any problem you have if you're having a problem where you are. Because I will say the thing that I think me and Mark were having a problem with at the time that we left was not feeling like we had community where we were living, and we thought maybe traveling. But then we were traveling, and we're like, well, that didn't solve it because then we were moving 100% of the time. Like, how does that build community? So sometime I think before you do it, evaluate what you think your problem is.
Speaker 2:If you're if you're totally just thinking, I just wanna see things, which was a big part of what we wanted, then yes, it's totally wonderful for that. But if you're trying to escape something or find something, it might not be the might not be the thing. Look inside yourself first. I don't know.
Speaker 1:The best piece of advice I got when I was trying to decide to leave teaching or not Mhmm. I I met with a couple couple men older than me who I really respected and and had a conversation with them, like, this I'm really torn. Is this something that I that I should do? And the the thing that they said that I I'll I'll never forget and that I think about a lot, not in just regards to professional career, was if if you're running away from something, don't leave it. Now, if you're running towards something, then go.
Speaker 1:Yes. And and I thought that that was a really profound way of looking at it. It's like if you're running away from something, like, like, it's always gonna be there or sooner or later, it's gonna catch up to you in different ways. Mhmm. And and so you can't run away from it.
Speaker 1:But if you're running towards something like the opportunity or the experience or the
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The what, you know, whatever it is, then then you should do it. And I think that that kind of
Speaker 2:Yes. That's great.
Speaker 1:Sounds like what you're saying. Yeah. Write that down. I love Write that down. Well, Jessica Shepherd, I wanna say first, thanks so much for this conversation.
Speaker 1:But most important, welcome back. We're Thank you. I I'm so glad that we were able to meet in this way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that we get to sit down and chat and man, Saginaw's better for having you back. So Well,
Speaker 2:thank you. And I'm so excited. Like I said, this is so awesome. What you're doing is awesome. So it's so good to meet you.
Speaker 2:You were one of the people that people are like, you haven't been here, but you gotta meet Phil.
Speaker 1:Have you
Speaker 2:met Phil?
Speaker 1:And I
Speaker 2:was like, alright. I gotta meet Phil.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thanks people that said that and thanks Jessica for for joining us on this conversation. Thanks. You're awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, you're awesome. Thanks. It was a lot of fun.