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Hosted by Terrance Ruth, this podcast decodes the language, decisions and hidden areas of local power that often seems illogical to residents. Our goal is to empower people to engage locally and to understand how significant it is to be aware and active at the local level. Once local government is logical, it will become meaningful and provide the benefits that allows for people to live a thriving life.
DR. FLOOD: This is about all of us. You are a
valuable person. You make a commitment to this
community. And the more you know and share with
others. That's how we get this thing better. So
all of us gotta be teachers. All of us gotta be
licensed. All of us, we all gotta be teachers.
We gotta teach whatever it is we know that is
good for the country, to whomever we have access
to. And that's how those problems gonna be resolved.
ANN: And I also appreciate what Dr. Flood said.
We can all be educators. We can all be teachers.
And so... Maybe in some places it's not the licensed
teacher. Maybe it's some other kind of educator,
right? We could just do so many different things.
TERRANCE: Welcome to Illogical by Truth. We have
an amazing episode today. And I want to jump right
in, because we have a lot to cover. Our state
and our country rests on a history that used the
unique role of public education to advance social
justice and major legislation. Because of the
national brand and influence of public education.
Most individuals assume that education K-12 is
exclusively either Federal or a state issue. People
forget that education is local. The history of
education is local. Our goal today is to share
that unique history and to explore the local opportunities
that exist today in reimagining public education.
So today I have with me just amazing individuals
have literally helped me as a young educator,
as a thinker through my career, even outside of
the classroom, they have become family and mentors
to me. We have Emma Call. Emma Call is an attorney.
That's almost, I think, an extended family to
me. We have wrestled with issues of education,
issues of inequality, both at income, race. We
have looked at statewide issues. We have looked
at local issues. We have even entertained amazing
human beings across the nation on issues and has
really trailblazed several initiatives. One was
to sort of create a solution to this mass exodus
to charter schools, for public schools. And that
work is still continuing today. And Anne has really
thought not just outside the box, I think she
creates the box by which most people live in.
And so I just thank you for being, for being present,
for allowing your mind to grapple with issues
that people don't even know are significant at
the moment. And so thank you. My introduction
to Anne. Was in the constitutional debates. And
she had me sit in the seat of legislators early
on when they were debating for the integration
of, or the creation of the public school system
and the integration of schools as a legislative
issue. And when you sit in that seat and you share
those words, you're now put into the, into the
sort of historical place where certain views were
different at the time and you start to understand
the weight. Of living the life you live now. And
so thank you for the opportunity to experience
Ann McColl. And then I have Dr. Flood. Dr. Flood
has... He has allowed for me to just sit in his
living room. And just learn and grow. But what
was most fascinating about Dr. Flo, years ago
I was a principal, and he allowed for us to hold
a breakfast that we filmed. And prior leading
up to that breakfast, he gave me several books
about his life. And he gave me a chance to sort
of dive in to who he is as a human being outside
of education. Most people see him as an educator,
but if you read his story, education was blessed
by the human being, not the inverse. So I just
appreciate Dr. Flo being a trailblazer in so many
ways. He have trophies all over the place. But
what's most fascinating to me is everybody that
meets you, Dr. Flood. As if you were their personal
mentor. And so I just thank you for giving so
much to others and never expecting or asking for
anything back in return. And I think that's at
the essence of what public school should be. And
so I just thank you for being the ultimate educator
and allowing for me to live in your legacy here
in the state. So welcome Anne and Dr. Flood. That's
probably the longest introduction ever. But these
two human beings are just, they're meaningful
to me and they know it. I talk to them all the
time. But I want to start with you, Dr. Flood.
You are in the North Carolina Hall of Fame. You
are in several other areas. So what led you to
the field of education? Why is public education
important to you?
DR. FLOOD: I've always believed that each of us
ought to try to make some contribution to the
betterment of humankind. And as I grew up in a
segregated society, the vehicle through which
they were there was only education. They had no
other opportunity to do that. I could have been
a preacher, I could have been a lawyer, I could
have been an educator. As a preacher, I would
have had a congregation in one church. That's
not enough for me. As a lawyer, I could have had
whoever was in trouble. That's not enough for
me either. So the only avenue through which you
could reach all the public was education. Everybody
goes to school. That had always been the case,
but when I grew up in the 30s and 40s, everybody
went to school and that's the only place I know
that everybody goes. Everybody doesn't go to church.
Everybody doesn't go to court. Everybody doesn't
go to anything else except school. So it occurred
to me if I were to make a difference, that'd be
the vehicle through which they do it.
TERRANCE: Dr. Flynn, you have amazing talents
in so many areas. You're an athlete. Most people
don't know you play baseball and basketball. You
were a math teacher. To this day, we're looking
for Black male math teachers. To this day, as
we stand right now. There's so many areas in which
you could have moved. Why did you say, OK, I'm
going to hone in here? So many areas in which
just your brilliance could have been just amazing.
Why in that classroom?
DR. FLOOD: Your access to the utilization of any
of those capabilities was education. I had no
other avenue through which I could have done any
of those things. The basketball I played was in
school. I played on the playground, but nobody
was watching. Everything I learned useful, except
for the family, of course. That was applicable
to doing what I ultimately wanted to do, and that
was try to make a difference. I believe then,
as I do now, that the price for living here is
that you leave something here better than what
you found. And I didn't know any other avenue,
and I still don't through which I personally,
I know that others have other avenues through
which they can. But knowing me is I've always
known me. My strengths. We're in building leaders.
I've never tried to build followers. I've tried
to build leaders. And where is they gonna build
leaders except to catch them at the rudimentary
stage where they haven't decided they already
know all there is to know? And... And help them
to understand what is possible, because the great
motivator is possibility. Them to understand what
is possible. Your journey being an example of
what is possible for them because they knew that
I grew up on the Chouin River and except for education
I'd been a tugboat captain today you know. There's
nothing wrong with that but I hope I made a greater
contribution than pushing the Corinthian up down
Chouin River for the rest of my life. That would
be the thing my father was doing. I honored him
for doing it, did it really well but he never
said to me that you would be the next tugboat
captain. He said to me, my job is to go down here
to ribbon work, your job is to go to school. Every
day you see me do my job I expect to see you doing
yours. So there wasn't much of an option. I wish
I could say I gathered by myself the value there.
It wasn't an option in my house. My house was
full of people who knew that school is your job.
And so I've always liked fun. I decided school's
your job. Why don't you learn to enjoy it? And
to this day, I enjoy school. I've been to school
some part every year of my life since I was five
years old. Sometimes sneaked into a workshop that
Anne was doing. But I've been somewhere that would
enable me to learn. Why? Because I don't know
what is applicable. I don't know what I'd rather
need it. I'd rather have it and not need it than
to need it and not have it. So, and Anne knows
it's not stealing. I use her stuff. I need to.
Because that's what educators do. They don't put
this stuff in a barrel somewhere. They want it
to be where people can make use thereof. And that's
why I'm always gratified when I see young people
like ESF and Leo and others moving with the stuff
that we've talked about. They're doing something
with it. They're just balling it up and saving
it for another time. They're using it right now.
And that is through the educational system. That's
what educational systems, not just in the classroom.
Education is everywhere.
TERRANCE: You know, my father... He's no longer
with us, but my father grew up in SOUTHERN PINES.
He was an amazing mechanic. So when we wanted
to go visit my father, we had to go under the
car. Like you see Legs sticking out. This is at
the time you can get like, you know. Now, I lay
this for 25 cents. We'll see if he had any change
that fell out of his pocket. We had to go visit
him under the car. And I remember when we would
have time where he would share, he was a manly
man. So most of our communal time, my father,
was either watching wrestling. This is WWF, everyone.
Watching John Cloud find that, like it was, it
was, those are moments in which you had a chance
to intersect into his life. And in those moments,
he always wanted us to do something that did not
require just your hands. He would always push
it, he would always push it. And he wanted, in
the military, he took exams to try to advance
his career, he always failed those exams. But
he was a brilliant engineer. He retired as an
engineer, but he only seen excellence as it was
in your mind, as it was celebrated and awarded
as your mind elevating in formal education. So
it meant the world to him. He did not want us
to go down the avenue of engineering. Not that
he hated, he loved his career, but he always pushed
for the inverse. And so my graduate journey from
my bachelor's to my PhD was his fight with cancer.
So when I got my bachelor's, it was announced
to the family at my graduation. And then when
I graduated my PhD, my son was one years old,
and my father died that very next year. And so
my learning journey, his last thoughts of Terrence
was that he actually went and maximized whatever
he can in his brain and rested on education and
as an educator. And for me, it was that link between
me and my father that it became my drive to satisfy
my father. It wasn't these sort of external things.
It was this drive to beat this cancer to finish
that PhD program. And so the education became
a personal journey. It was a connector between
me and my father. So I would come in and check
with him, but he would also, his sit-up, the cancer
is eroding his body, but he'd sit up and he'd
ask me questions about it. He didn't want his
journey to burden mine, and I didn't want my journey
to burden his. So that was sort of the connector
between the two. But education was healing for
our relationship, for our family. I'm just talking
about committed lives, and I want to shift over
to you. You have literally committed your life
to research of education, race, social change.
Literally your entire life. What influenced you
to engage in education? Why did education become
sort of the main spoke in that wheel?
ANN: So I would say it started when I was in law
school. So before then. My interests in social
justice were a little broader, you know, good
government, political reform, was involved in
women's issues. And when I was in law school,
I really got to sit at the feet of some giants.
And so Dan Pollitt, Jack Boger were my professors
in constitutional law and in poverty and school
law. I got to work with Laurie Metisabov at the
Institute of Government. And you know, it... That's
a little bit more of the head experience, I would
say, of kind of realizing. That. Public education,
the way the society treats public education. Is
really one of the best indicators of what kind
of society we are. Right. So when we look at the
Constitution and free speech and the rights of
students, the rights of adults, I mean, we see
it all in the public education environment. So
that really sparked my imagination. And then when
I got the chance to do the kind of research into
the archives. I think that was more of the heart.
That was learning the empathy and understanding
for people who hadn't had the kind of experiences
I had. You know, I went to well-resourced schools
going up, and I knew that my parents would be
able to afford for me to go to college. And so
to then learn our history and know about people
who had been denied any opportunity to education,
people who had been denied an equal opportunity,
people who had been denied. The opportunity to
learn in an environment that honored who they
were and their culture. You know, that's a whole
other thing. And so it's realizing the power that
people have, through the way we have set up government.
And its absolute necessity. From the young person
to the young person's family, to this community,
to the state and nation. I mean, it's just, people
talk about it and it's... You can't say it as
a hyperbole, just how important it is. And the
two of you have just spoken so beautifully about
your own experience. And that's, you know, we
can go to this person and this person and this
person. So that's what captivated me about it.
TERRANCE: You know what's amazing, and is we're
seeing trends. In education now, almost like a
zoom back into hyperlocal. You see in school board
meetings packed out. But I've listened to you
and I've snuck into your workshops as well. And
you have, shared this picture a long time ago.
You were literally beating this drum a long time
ago. And it's just amazing how you committed your
life to the point where you can see the crumbs
that's leading to a larger picture. Most people
are just experiencing it now. But I remember when
you were putting your 18 together to try to be
prepared for this moment. And so by now, most
people consider you the premier voice for Gene's
teachers. And some people, it's gonna be the first
time they ever hear that. And this is not just
exclusive to North Carolina. But it's gonna be
sometimes the first time they ever heard of Gene's
teachers. In Rosenwald Schools, even though most
of, you know, the work of integration and Black
education rested on, you know, in the South, rested
on the quality of the Rosenwald Schools. This
education history is saturated with levels of
local activism, local engagement. Can you share
what gene teachers in the Rosenwald Schools are
in their relationship to local activism?
ANN: Sure. So, you know, let's paint a picture
first of the Jim Crow South, starting in the early
1900s. Whenever I hear people talk about how hard
it is now. I just have to say, let's look back
a little bit. Let's look back a little bit. Of
course, women didn't have the right to vote. Black
men had been denied their right to vote, had been
essentially made. Ineffective in all of political
life. I mean, there's just no way to talk about
the horrors of Jim Crow and fully express all
of what was going on—the lynchings, the inequities.
The refusal of white society to allow blacks to
flourish. And so it is in that context that we
have schools for blacks that are in deplorable
conditions. That are being run by white school
systems, right? And so genes, which genes teachers,
and so people always want to know how to spell
it, so I'm just gonna. It's a little spelling
here. It's J-E-A-N-E-S. It's another northern
philanthropy project, just like the Rosenwald
Schools. Where Anna T. Jeanes, a Quaker woman
from Philadelphia, wanted to leave a family fortune.
To allow black educators into the South to make
a difference. And what's pretty extraordinary
about the approach is that she didn't want to
give it. Like to Booker T. Washington and the
Tuskegee or the Hampton Institute. She believed
in educators and she believed in educators being
able to go into local communities. And help them
do what they saw as needed. I mean, it's the most
extraordinary kind of local autonomy. Go into
Gates County, go into Durham County, go into Rutherford,
go into Rowan, wherever in North Carolina and
along with the South. And these primarily female
educators, all African American. Had this amazing
opportunity to work with the community. To say,
what is it we need to do? And what's within our
values? And what expresses who we are as a culture
and as a community? And what will uplift us and
it will help us thrive? And so they often had
an amazing amount of authority. They sort of started
it as de facto superintendents of the schools
for blacks, because the white superintendent was
busy. And they even said quite bluntly, I've got
my hands full with the white schools. It would
be great if you would do whatever you can. So
they did the hiring, they figured out the curriculum.
They worked with the community. They did community
organizing. And, you know, it's... The individual
teachers are praiseworthy. And I think it's really
important to put it within the context of their
culture, their communities, the Black communities.
And what is also praiseworthy are the black women's
organizations, the women in the churches, who
were already fostering these values and ways of
being in the community. And they nurtured these
Jeanes teachers, and the Jeanes teachers were
a part of those groups. And so it was all of a
piece. It was so holistic in the way they saw
public education as a part of their communities.
And so it's this really special time. And the
Rosenwald Schools go hand in hand with this because
Rosenwald, again named after a white northern
philanthropist, the CEO of Sears, Roebuck & Co.,
essentially created a challenge and incentive
and said, White School Districts, if you will,
I will give you some money to build a school.
That is of a much better standard than the schools
that you have right now for your Black students.
And it's a deal. The black community will raise
some funds to show their interest in the school,
but you will then agree to pay the teachers reasonably,
give them the same resources. And so it was this
opportunity. Well, who's going to? Rally a community
to take advantage of that is going to be the Jeanes
teachers. And so there's no coincidence that North
Carolina, who had more Jeanes teachers than any
state other than Virginia, were out there rallying
communities, doing the fundraising, to build these
Rosenwald Schools. And North Carolina has more
Rosenwald schools than any other state. It's one
of those opportunities to see locally what was
done. And we still can because the archives are
there. Because it was an organized program, we've
got reports, you know, the Jeanes teacher, Carrie
Jordan in Durham, here are all the things that
she did. Annie Holland in Gates County, this is
what she did. You know, we can see, and it is,
it's just as you're saying, Terrence, it's local.
They are going into the communities. Not deciding
by themselves. The philanthropy isn't telling
them what to do. They are working with the community
to come together. And decide what they need.
TERRANCE: And I wanna just zoom in to... Day in
the life. Because most people when they say go
into community that's abstract and they're thinking
so many different things. I remember you gave
me a story where there was a, I think she was
married. But she was coming to the South in a
community she's never been in before.
ANN: Mm-hmm.
TERRANCE: Meeting the pastor, asking for space.
Teaching life skills, teaching how to sew, I think
it was. You're talking about complete strangers,
right? I'm talking about, you know, like getting
in your car and, you know, going to Google Maps.
Than like a Starbucks.
DR. FLOOD: Right.
TERRANCE: Like I'm trying to get people to understand
the risk.
ANN: Yeah.
TERRANCE: Of like leaving and going into, all
for the sake of education.
ANN: That's right. So you're thinking about Annie
Holland, who had been from Virginia. She was the
first person in her family born outside of slavery.
She had become an educator, she was a teacher,
she had been a principal of the fastest growing
school in her community. And she had worked with
communities in Virginia, creating buying clubs.
Trying to help those communities find ways to
come together and create power for themselves.
So when she came into North Carolina, she already
knew what she thought she needed to do. And it
was true, it's exactly what you say. The first
thing she did was meet with the churches, and
they agreed to help her. They agreed to fundraise
for her so she could go to them and say, this
is what we need at the school, and they would
help her with it. And she worked 12 months a year.
Which, you know, we're still trying to figure
out how to do that for teachers, right? And she
would get grants, sometimes from the U.S. Government
in agriculture, to come in and work in the students'
homes, helping them learn how to can, learn how
to create summer gardens. But it was all of a
piece because she would say, she wrote these wonderful
letters and she said, I'm not just helping with
canning, I'm not just helping with gardens, I'm
getting into the home and they are getting to
understand the value of education and they are
connecting. And so when the fall starts, I know
them. They believe in me and we're gonna work
together. And she goes on to run the program for
the state. She's the first African American in
North Carolina to run the Program with the Jeanes
Program, along with other things. She was a supervisor
of Elementary Schools, the Black schools for the
whole state. And so she was just an extraordinary
woman. And she was of a kind, right? Again, I
want to be careful to both, praise Annie Holland
and praise the black community that embraced her
and said, yes, this is exactly what we should
be doing and we are right there with you. And
I do think that that's important given that there
were counter narratives at that time of saying
that Black communities didn't care about education.
I mean, so not true. So not true.
TERRANCE: It's sad that... You hear a lot of those
narratives now. And it's sad that you run into
Media, especially in black-centered communities,
and it's just not true. It's just not. And so,
you know, with that, Anne has really given us
sort of local characters. Dr. Flood, most people
assume that state and Federal actors desegregated
schools alone. So we're fast forwarding up to,
and then without local support or influence, it's
just that legislation happened and the next day...
So, Dr. Flood, I had the privilege of reading
several books that you authored, and you were
influenced by the Rosenwald Schools and by local
educators. In what ways can you remind our listeners
of how your role in desegregating schools required
local influence?
DR. FLOOD: If I were to describe... Education
was. And my growing up, it was 100% alcohol. I
was a grown man before I knew you had something
called a state superintendent. Known in the sense
18 years, give or take. Had no meaning to me as
a black person growing up. But I did know about
the Jeanes teacher. I did know about the Rosenwald
concept. I knew about all of that because I went
to a Rosenwald school. Not, not withstanding that.
My focus has always been that all politics are
local. Ultimately they are. And if we follow how
we got to the notion that we ought to desegregate,
it was local. When Brown versus Board B, it was
foul. It didn't start at the national level. It
started at Supreme Court. It started with Brown
down in Topeka, Kansas. Soon the Local boards
of education went through several iterations before
it ever got there. But even given that... When
it was adjudicated, remember that Brown II, which
I don't pay much attention to, Brown I, it told
us what we already knew, that the old schools
inherently unequal. I knew that when I was 10,
let me guess, however. It gave no remedy. But
when Brown too said we should move forthwith with
deliberate speed, listen to these phrase languages,
to A, dismantle the dual school system and B,
Eliminate. The heritage there are. Now, when I
was hired along with Gene Carl's by-job, theoretically
it was to help to eradicate dual school systems.
We took it on ourselves, however, to realize that
the vestiges thereof... Needn't be toppled because
there'd be no other opportunity in which to do
that unless you did it simultaneous too. Now,
not to assume that everybody had negative intent.
But we went into every community in North Carolina,
every single one of them. And there were certain
things that they had in common. One was that everywhere
we went, we knew that there would be polarization.
You can see the remnants of it now. One of the
reasons we have difficulty with discourse. Is
polarization. And that doesn't mean somebody was
good and somebody was bad. It means that education
has always suffered from two categories of people,
unloving critics and uncritical lovers. Now, we
found that everywhere we went. So you go in there
and there's some unloving critics. Nothing is
right with school. You can be on critical levels.
You don't need to change anything. If you don't
start with that, you're swimming upstream all
the time. So we can see that start with, doesn't
make you a bad person. That's just where your
narrative is. Something bad about schools. And
particularly something bad about Black schools.
Well, then once you get... To the point that you
define yourself as being in there. We're not here
to tell you who is right. We're here to try to
help you with what is right. So I never get dragged
into a conversation of who was right. I know you've
had many opportunities and you'll have more as
you move along, that somebody will quote you.
Jack said this and said, what do you think? Well,
Jack has a right to say whatever he said. If you
want to know what I think about the issue. I'll
be glad to talk to you about it. I have no opinion
about what Jack said. What do you think? I'm not
interested in further polarizing people. I'm not
interested in that at all. I'm not interested
in playing that game called let's you and him
fight. I don't play that game. What I want to
do is help you focus on the issue. What is it
we're here to deal with? And so as long as we
could keep people focused on those issues, what
are we here to deal with? They're not that many
of them. And if you get into what somebody said,
felt, or thought... And even to name that person
in some categorical sense, then you can wear yourself
out and have nothing done. But if you're able
to open people's minds to thinking, as a teacher,
you have to go into Teaching thinking. If people
knew better, they'd do better. That's what drives
you into Teaching. If you don't have that belief,
why would you be Teaching stuff? That's good.
And so in the working with the various communities,
We didn't go anywhere except by invitation, by
the way. Sometimes them dates came from the Federal
government, but... Still an invitation, we didn't
plow into your place and you got A, B, and C.
But what we began with was... That is, tell us
where you think you are right now, toward whatever
objective you're root, and in what way you feel
we can help you with it. And... They hadn't thought
about that. They thought you'd come here to tell
us we got to do ABU. Not here to tell you, do
anything. I acknowledge to begin with that North
Carolina as a state procrastinated as long as
it could before it did anything meaningful about
it. This man in the middle school system. As long
as it could. Law is passed. At five. I was 69
before we did any meaningful state order. Because
what the state did was remand the authority back
to local school districts, which meant at that
time we had 152 school districts, each of which
had to have their own plan. Now how did locals
figure into this? Of those 152 school districts.
One Third of them. Had voluntary compliance. Which
means that was totally locally generated. Operated
something we call the 445, 441 plan, they defined
how they were going to desegregate schools. Now,
were we there? Yes, but we weren't there to tell
them how to do it. Now that you've decided, yes,
some help. Another Third of them were court orders,
having been created from the local people having
sued. So two-thirds of the people in North Carolina,
the whole notion was local. And nothing to do
with that. And the more reticent ones, there was
a little more Federal influence, because in 1964,
they passed the Civil Rights Act. And one compartment
of that was, if you do certain things, you'll
get some money to do them with it. So another
thing you won't want is pretty big incentive.
And so it was part of our responsibility to say
Federal funds are attached, provided that. That
wasn't a threat, that was Teaching. Then you know
that title one money you have. It's gone if we
say you're in compliance with. The court order
and so on and so forth. So we rarely ever had
to do that, but in a discussion, which we always
had, we called them discussion cells. It was never
we were here to order anything. It's never here
the states send us to tell you anything. We're
here as technical assistance specialists to help
you with whatever you define that with which you
need help. If we could inject some things for
you and thought about that you may need help with,
that was legitimate, but it had to be very subtle.
So all of it was local, even to the point of the
Three, the 33% give or take I'm generalizing,
that were reticent. It started from the fact that
you still had unloving critics, those people who
said, what's wrong with this school? I've literally
gone into a school which had been all black, water
dripping from the ceiling and waterbucket catching.
My grandmother finished the school. My grandfather
finished. What's wrong with this school? We're
not here to talk about what's wrong with this
school. We're talking about what is better and
what you have the right to. You had to make sure
whether that's something you want to work toward,
but you never have the right to, and so on and
so forth. So it was all local. It was all local.
The only thing, the only thing national we did
was We led the Federal government into knowing
what the circumstances are you're dealing with
because Federal government is terribly confused
about that. For example, Robeson County had six
school districts in it. The Federal government
thinks county. And that time they think in county.
And they were very confused. 52 of the districts
were obviously city districts. 100 counties instead.
They were very confused about what to do. So we
were interveners between helping them to understand
that you don't do the same thing in Red Springs
that you and Pembroke or St. Pauls. So when you're
given a covenant, send... Robeson county has to
A, B or C or D. We have to get under that and
say what can Red Springs do and what can... Now
we didn't help consolidate, but that theory drove
some people to understand it would be a lot simpler
if we just had a county system. We were sitting
in one of those, and you had Wake County and you
had Raleigh, NC City. At that time. So it was
all local. And education was always the driver.
Education led to all the other... Things because
the greatest employee in most of the counties
in North Carolina at that time, you get out of
about eight, ten counties, greatest employee there
was public schools. Now if you go northeast enough,
you still find that to be true, I suspect. You've
researched it. I suspect the greatest employer
there is the school. The voting precincts in school
building. So there was no separation. And application,
but the narrative. That says, some inherently
wrong with schools. Why? Because I went to school,
I didn't have a good experience there. And I knew
how they are and I'd been waiting to get them.
And then you had the other people over there saying,
school saved my life and saved my family's life.
And you all leave schools alone. Somewhere between
there, there has to be a dialogue. I have to see
how it looks to you, you have to see how it looks
to me and how we can make that. And we always
had to caveat it. Whatever we end up hearing,
the way of discussion has to have Three components.
Number one, it has to be legal, because we're
not going to sign off on something illegal. And
this is our role to let you know this is not going
to pass much in the court. We're not lawyers,
but we do know what will pass much in the court.
We've been to that in an order a number of times,
and we can help you with that. Secondly, it must
be educationally sound. We are educators trained
to do this. And if your proposition is not educationally
sound, we will have to help you to understand
that's probably not going to pass much. And then
it has to be locally acceptable. That doesn't
mean everybody has to agree 100% everybody shall
have had their opportunity to have their input
and have it embellished in whatever way they think
they must. And that's time consuming. How are
all us trying to keep that low key so that you
don't have to shout at each other, call each other
Dirty Names? Let's focus on the issue. So... In
my case, I would always direct discussions to
these Three questions. What? So what? Now what?
Now when you give me the what, that helps us to
know. This is what we're here to talk about. And
all this ancillary stuff I can bring you. That's
not for today's discussions. And then so what?
What is the impact of this? The residuals we're
dealing with now, the impact of all that stuff
that Anne has historically let us know about that
happened. We're still dealing with the impact
of that. And we don't have to point fingers at
somebody. It's a societal impact that it has had.
There's a narrative been created and continued
to be fostered. So then now what grows out of
that? What is it we need to do about that? That's
why we'll continue to work every day of our lives,
trying to find some, now what? What do we do now
that we know this? I know that my job is to teach.
Her job is Social, we know that. That ain't all
we do. That's right, that's right. That's how
we are known. We use every opportunity that we
have to get at the nowhere. Every opportunity
we have.
ANN: Can I interject? So I'm hoping that the podcasters
have heard Dr. Flet talking enough that you're
making these conclusions for yourself, but it's
so important. I just want to say something. Dr.
Flood has referred to their keeping their role
at this more technical level, but I hope everyone
can hear that there's so much heart in the way
Dr. Flood does this and that He and Gene Causby,
Gene Causby being white. When they came in. They
were modeling for people how to be, and how to
be respectful, how to do this kind of problem
solving. They had a sense of humor about them.
And I mean, this was not a bureaucratic mission.
I just want that to be abundantly clear. And that
when we're talking about how do we make changes,
I mean, it's about those kinds of leadership skills,
those qualities that make these things happen.
And North Carolina just owes so much to Dr. Flood
and Mr. Calsby for the work they've done. Way.
They went about this work.
TERRANCE: Yes, sir. And I, you know. And I wanna...
Jump into a question that's to you. In American
history, African Americans, you touched on this,
were legally forbidden to learn and to be educated.
I mean, at one point it was just, it was against
the law. A crime. A crime, thank you.
DR. FLOOD: No worries.
TERRANCE: Before there was a sort of institution
that said Black education or a black superintendent
or a black superintendent report, that crime,
potential crime, this forced a loose, a loose,
uncoordinated underground network of learning.
Reading, exploring ideas in the home, in the neighborhood,
in the community. Learning autonomy was owned
by the members within the home. Can you help us
understand what that may have looked like? What
autonomy looked like when it was against the law
or it wasn't of great quality? What did it mean
to have autonomy in that space?
ANN: Yeah, and so where I would start it is, say
those laws were in effect leading up to the Civil
War. And right after the Civil War, one of the
things that I think is so important is that in
North Carolina we had what was called a Freedmen's
Convention. And it was one of the first in the
South where, free Black men. And free Black men.
There were not women involved. Came together,
they came together in Raleigh, NC, just a few
blocks from where we're sitting right now, and
decided on what was important. And one of the
things was education. And James Harris, who was
a free black man from Raleigh, NC, really spearheaded
the development of an organization that was grassroots.
And so this is where we see it moving from these
undercover kind of operations to we want to fully
embrace this and say there was a claiming, right?
And those people who were involved in that grassroots
movement. Are then delegates to the 1868 Constitutional
Convention. And they are the leaders in talking
about why public education is important. And that's
that kind of going back and forth, right? So things
happen at the local level, you're figuring it
out, you're saying what matters. And now you're
going to take that experience and bring it up
to the state, you're going to enshrine it in the
state constitution. And so we do see that sort
of, we can always look to places where people
have been deprived and look at their ingenuity
and their creativity to get what they need. And
We need to remember that. So that was happening
then. It, of course, is happening in the Jim Crow
South. And I also don't want to forget in our
conversation, indigenous people who were deprived
in so many different ways. And we can again look
to what were they doing, and what was the culture,
what was their relationship to education, what
do they have to offer? And so we can always look
to those pieces, and we should. You know, we're
at a place now where the best thing we can do
is to step back and say, we have a particular
kind of a school system. It came out of a white
supremist patriarchal system. That's a fact. It's
just a fact. And if we stepped back and said,
if we learned... FUN! All the people. Who are.
Just as much a citizen in North Carolina, have
just as much of a stake at this. What were they
doing on the sides when they didn't fully belong,
when they weren't fully getting their needs met?
How can we then make that a part of the system?
And so that's that going back and forth. We're
going to do things locally, and in part people
do it because they have to, right? But we're not
going to just leave that to the side. We're going
to say, that's ours. That's the juice. That's
the source. And we're going to look for those
things. So this is that notion of movement rolling
across the state. It's not top-down, but it's
the best sort. It's where people are at their
most authentic self because they're solving the
problems of their communities.
TERRANCE: So good. And you know, today in some
ways, and you're talking about it right now, Public
education in some states feel as if legal language
and pressures are making it more complicated for
certain groups of people to have a thriving learning
experience. What thoughts do you have in helping
families reimagine local learning autonomy? That
really complements public education as it is right
now.
ANN: Yeah. And you know, it's such a, in some
ways, it's a painful question, right? We would
like to think that in 2023, all children would
feel like they have a sense of belonging in their
public schools. All children would feel like all
of their needs are getting met. So the question
raises something that's, I think, painful, that
we haven't quite gotten there. And so I would
take it to the, you know... For people in community
who feel these things. And they do. Is to start
by really thinking. Through what is it that's
going on? Is it that there are certain almost
programmatic things that are missing? And after
all, people with resources have supplemented their
children's education forever. They get piano lessons.
They pay the cost to participate in the soccer,
right? So, is it sort of like that? And, you know,
what we saw in COVID was people getting really
creative about coming together and bringing, you
know, how can we share the burden and the resources
and everything? So, there can be that. If it's
more that sense of belonging. That public education
feels like it's almost, you go in to get what
you have to, but you've got to get your sense
of yourself somewhere else. I mean, why not step
back and say how painful that is, if that's true.
In those situations, my hope for the adults in
this is that they're taking care of their children,
you know, so you are finding those places of belonging
for your children. And we're creating that loop.
You're letting your school system know. That we're
having to go and do these things because we don't
have that sense of belonging. And we're always
inviting. The Local boards. Close by school to
say, you know, we think it would be better if
we did it these ways. And we can show you, because
we've been doing it. That's good. You know?
TERRANCE: And Dr. Flood, your job historically,
and you've had many in education from sitting
on boards and whatnot, was to create a change
of hope. There was an element in you going into
these communities that something was going to
change for the better. There was this sort of
saturation of hope in the language to help move
barriers to learning. Education and opportunities
were sort of the hope. If we remove these barriers,
the hope was that we'll become educated and then
it would increase opportunities or just life would
be better or there will be even plenty. There
was some hope narrative in your words. How might?
A Dr. Flood today helped create change of hope
for school districts who are preparing to go back
to school with budget shortages, staff shortages,
bus driver shortages. Increase in mental health
concerns, learning loss from COVID. I mean, you
can literally, and this is sitting on top of major
legislative reports like the Leandra report, you
know, that was pre-COVID. How might we enter community
again with that hope in a season that seems pretty
daunting for men's school districts?
DR. FLOOD: One necessary thing is to ensure that
everybody begins to return to realizing that all
the schools belong to all the people, which means
all the problems that go with that are yours.
They're not just the school's problems. They're
my problems. I have no children, haven't had no
children. But when they say you need to raise
taxes for school, I'm the first one to run in
my pocket raising, why won't everybody be educated?
So what we try to do, as often as I have an opportunity
to speak with groupers, help them understand the
Elio Marcenari nature of education. It's not about
me. It's about the better of society. It's the
same way that my street is, the same way that
my fire department is, the same way that my police
department. They're not about me. I do get the
benefit, but that's not why we have them. We have
them because they serve the population. Education
serves the population. So if you understand it
serves you, then you understand you have a concomitant
responsibility to make it work. And all those
problems can be better solved when all of us bite
into them. None of them are without solutions.
They've been solved somewhere. And why not here?
But if we didn't have the ants of the world who
could pull from wherever such a solution exists
and give us that model, we'd be scratching in
the sand one by one trying to come up. I just
read in my journal that I get from AASA an article
written by a local person. He's done the research
for us and he's right here. And I'm going to call
him. What's happening? And tell him how much I
appreciate him as African. But I've known him
for years, and I didn't know he was doing research.
I mean, you know, I knew about his... We need
to go to the trouble of saying, if these problems
exist, what is my role? What little piece of that
can I take a bite from? We don't have school bus
drivers. How many people are walking around with
a driver's license and don't even have a job?
But that's school's problem. It isn't school's
problem. It's your problem. It's everybody's problem.
And I don't want to see the kids on my street,
your street, or anybody else's street, not being
able to attend school because... They're waiting
for the bus to make a second load and then...
They're cutting the six hour, which is too short,
down to four hours. When it all becomes all of
our problems. And there'll be no solution until
we're farther along. Understanding that all these
problems belong to us. Go ahead and create them.
I used to glib to say to... Parents would pull
me out, what in the world is school coming to?
I'd say, what in the world is coming to school?
School is coming to whatever comes to it. We don't
create people out here. We take what you send
us. We don't evaluate them. We don't decide that
we aren't going to have the good ones, put them
over there. We keep them all. And with that, we'd
like you to come, because you've had this kid
for 15 years. You know something I can't learn
in nine months. Help me with what you know that
has worked well. And if you can do that and still
be smiling when you do it, you'd be astonished
at how quickly parents would say, you know, you
got a point there. I'll just make this one observation.
My principals was in the school one through. 1
through 12. Which don't ever take that job if
it's already. It cannot be done because if you're
in the high school, they want to watch you in
the Elementary. But the first day of school, I
knew I was going to spend the whole day with parents
coming to admonish me. And one would come in and
say, I don't want to teach you to shout at him,
he's nervous. I'm saying, what kind of nerve-breaking
experiences has he had? He didn't get them here.
And I'm not going to say that. I'm saying, ma'am,
we understand that all of our children have to
be treated delicately. I'm not going to separate
that and say, we're going to look out for your
child. This is the ethos of this school. Thank
you for bringing it to my attention. But we require
that here. I mean, before you were hired here,
we determined that that's your feeling about students.
One question I ask is, as a principal, is what
do you believe about children? And if somewhere
in that conversation I don't come out believing
that all children have a right to education, you
don't get to work here. I said, so we've taken
care of that. But thank you for reminding me.
And you're on the same way that I'm on. But that's
just one of many examples that you have an opportunity
to bring the school and the education community
into the community and vice versa. And we can
do that. We can solve all these problems one by
one, not all in one week. If we would be closer
aligned with helping people understand these are
your schools. These are your schools. They got
it. That told me how to get here when I was looking
for you. He asked me was I an educator? There's
a black man walking around with a necktie on.
Even in 2023, he got to be either a preacher or
an educator. Now, am I offended by that? No, I'm
flattered. Because that's what I am every minute
of every day. I'm an educator. I don't care what
I'm doing. I'm an educator. So when we get alignment,
and then I told him, well, sir, you knew somebody,
no. Because you know I'm on North and I'm supposed
to be on South. I don't care what. Maybe I'm 30-grade.
I don't care. He has to understand that this is
about all of us. You are a valuable person. You
make a commitment to this community. And the more
you know and share with others. That's how we
get this thing better. So all of us gotta be teachers.
All of us gotta be licensed. We all gotta be teachers.
We gotta teach whatever it is we know that is
good for the country, to whomever we have access
to. And that's how those problems are going to
be resolved.
TERRANCE: I appreciate that. And before I close
out, if I find a question that both of you would
share, this is the last question, Ann. We read
about gene teachers historically, but how should
we see or reimagine gene teachers' role in the
public schools that need support today?
ANN: Well, yeah, one of the things that I'm most
excited about related to the genes teachers is...
We've actually got an experiment going on, and
it's the Dudley Flood Center, named after my esteemed
colleague, and the Innovation Project, which I
had co-founded, are working on that. We've got
eight Jeanes Fellows in the state, spread out
across the state. That are reimagining and thinking
about how to. How do I as an educator? Connect
with communities and get the... Community and
the public education solving problems together,
right? It's so exciting. And I think. Any school
could do it anywhere.
DR. FLOOD: That's so good.
ANN: And I would love to see. Lots of reinventions
of this, you know, and it's... What I think was
meant to be the professionalization of Teaching,
dropped away some of these community roles and
said those are less important. We can change that.
We can just change it. And so this idea of, and
I know both of you know better than me, the focus
on recruiting and retaining teachers of color.
Important and What if we were also taking this
as an opportunity to say, what can we learn from
different cultures about what is the role of a
teacher? Let's not just put them into these positions
that we've already decided exactly what they are,
you know? So there's so many opportunities, and
it starts... With, I think, that notion of do
the next needed thing in that community, that
there is this deep connection between Teaching
and teaching. Education and community. Um. And
It can go and I also appreciate what Dr. Fliss
said. It's like we can all be educators. We can
all be teachers. And so maybe in some places it's
not the licensed teacher. Maybe it's some other
kind of educator, right? We could just do so many
different things.
TERRANCE: So, you know, as an alternative school
teacher and principal, I'm normally inheriting
students who are underperforming. Either by some
metric of behavior or some metric of cognitive
performance. And so they're normally coming to
my school. And in these environments, it's normally
really rough, low trust, everyone's guarded. There's
several walls before you actually get to the humanity
of the human being. The only capital that's successful
in that space is relational. They don't care if
I'm a PhD. They don't get to sense about the Master’s.
They don't care if I met the President, or if
I met the Senator. If I can't connect to both
that human being and their community, what is
my relationship to their mother? What is my relationship
to their father? What is my relationship to their
grandmother? If I don't have that social capital,
I'm not moving to a human being in that school.
And there's an element to, if I was to leave educational
alternatives, I no longer have to engage that
social capital. And I think that's a false divorce
there. And so for me, I only worked in environments
where relational capital, communal capital, social
capital was the only way you can teach. If you're
into that room trying to pull out a pedagogy that
did not connect you to that human being, it's
going to be a tough day.
ANN: Yeah, that's the foundation of everything.
DR. FLOOD: Yes, it is.
TERRANCE: So I just want, again, this is just
a... It's been an amazing conversation. Again,
these two human beings mean the world to me. And
so, individuals, I want to reach out and connect
to you. We are reaching a pretty broad audience.
And so, how do they find you? What work are you
doing? What can they plug into? I know we got
the Dudley Flood Center. I know we have work that's
branched underneath that. But Dr. Flood, how can
people reach your legacy, your work, what you're
doing?
DR. FLOOD: And Dudley Flood Center is the best
avenue through which they know where I am all
the time. Most of the time I'm there because they
sent me. And since I don't have, I'm retired by
title. I don't have a staff and that kind of stuff,
but anytime you call the center They can tell
you almost to the minute where and what I'm doing
and how to get me is aware want me to be if. And
it's to my advantage to work through the Senate
because we're trying to build its legacy. I've
pretty much done what I came here to do, but I
want some remnant of that to carry on. I mean,
I've only done it for 90 years, and I have a little
less than that to do it. Going forward. So while
I've enjoyed the first half of my life. I want
that center to be the second half of my life.
And I do virtually nothing outside of the covenant
of the center. I mean, I do a little bit of stuff,
but if it's important, do it through the center,
please. So if I can come and help you have the
center, have me come and help you in any way.
TERRANCE: I know that there's a Color of Education
Conference early October, and again from the Dudley
Flood Center, and it's a conference that really
brings together diverse voices to really try to
be a strong advocate in more prevention strategies
for public education. I had a chance to sit with
Dr. Flood in his home, and I think his phone rang
every .2 seconds. So he's pseudo-retired. But
it's...
ANN: That's true.
DR. FLOOD: That's true.
TERRANCE: That's true. And Ann, how can individuals
find you? I know you write in Medium. I know you
have different ways in which your work is sort
of spreading across. You had the The Innovation
Project (TIP) in North Carolina. But how can people
find Ann now? Like, whoa.
ANN: So I am a little off the grid right now.
I'm focusing on my writing, and, but I would say
they can contact you. And actually, the Flood
Center, I just got off of their board, and I'm
still doing something with them. So the Flood
Center can tell people how to get to me. So that's
actually, right now, is sort of like people find
me through different people. I mean, I'm on LinkedIn,
and I have a link tree, and blah, blah, blah.
But you know.
TERRANCE: Again, just gold mines in education,
and just wonderful human beings. It's just a wonderful
opportunity to have them let us know and understand
why education is very much local. What we do in
schools are really a reflection of who you bring
to us, as Dr. Flood would say. Again, this is
another episode of Illogical by Truth, produced
by Ear Fluence. And I will see you in the next
episode. Thank you.