03: The Secret Is to Get a Truck

Ian & Aaron discuss Ian's vacation on the Outer Banks, Aaron's drive back from Vermont, Lift for Laravel, making videos for YouTube, & more.

Sponsored by LaraJobs & HelloQuery.

Sent questions or feedback to [e-mail]

Links for this week's show:

• Lift for Laravel
• Hassan Zahirnia - designer
• PHP doesn't suck (anymore) - YouTube
• PHP Doesn't Suck Anymore | Prime Reacts - YouTube
• Ian's Tweet re: Photo Books
• SplitWise

Creators and Guests

Host

Aaron Francis

Founder of Solo. Sincere poster. No cynicism. Dad to two sets of twins!

Host

Ian Landsman

Founder HelpSpot, LaraJobs, and Outro.fm

Producer

Dave Hicking

Agency Partnerships at @laravelphp

What is Mostly Technical?

Hosted by Ian Landsman and Aaron Francis, Mostly Technical is a lively discussion on Laravel, business, and an eclectic mix of related topics.

[Ian Landsman]: Alright, we're back! Episode
3.

[Aaron]: We are back and I think we're both
in different locations.

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Aaron]: I made it back home to Texas and so
I'm back in my normal setup. Where are you?

[Ian Landsman]: I'm in the Outer Banks of North
Carolina.

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: So yeah, we've been in different
spots every episode, I feel like. So I don't

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: know. It might be

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: hard

[Aaron]: think

[Ian Landsman]: to keep

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: this

[Aaron]: actually

[Ian Landsman]: up. We're

[Aaron]: true,

[Ian Landsman]: gonna have to

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: keep traveling.

[Aaron]: Yeah, so what's in the Outer Banks?
This is not a part of the country I'm familiar

[Aaron]: with.

[Ian Landsman]: So this is my first time here.
I've never been here before. It's really great.

[Ian Landsman]: It's, we normally go to Martha's
Vineyard kind of almost every year. And this

[Ian Landsman]: year my family was going down
here. So my brother and my cousin, we decided

[Ian Landsman]: to tag along with them. So we're
all here. It's great. Like beach right on the

[Ian Landsman]: ocean, or beach on the ocean,
house on the ocean. You know, ice cream and

[Ian Landsman]: bunch of kids running around
and this huge house with the pool and the beach

[Ian Landsman]: and. a million rooms and everything.

[Aaron]: And is the beach on the ocean or is
the beach in town? Hopefully the beach

[Ian Landsman]: The

[Aaron]: is

[Ian Landsman]: beaches,

[Aaron]: also on the ocean.

[Ian Landsman]: it's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: on the ocean.

[Aaron]: Okay, good.

[Ian Landsman]: Although we have this hurricane,
I guess, coming or something. I don't know.

[Ian Landsman]: So we'll see. I don't think
it's going to hit

[Aaron]: Oh yeah!

[Ian Landsman]: us, but I think it's going to
be like 50 mile an hour winds and things like

[Ian Landsman]: that. So.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I think I just saw that this
morning. So now is the is the weather there?

[Aaron]: Is it 108 like it is in Dallas or is
it OK?

[Ian Landsman]: No, it's all right. It's been
in the 80s, so it's been good beach weather.

[Ian Landsman]: It's been

[Aaron]: That's

[Ian Landsman]: warm

[Aaron]: amazing.

[Ian Landsman]: and very humid, so kids have
been wanting to get in the water and all that.

[Ian Landsman]: That's been good. Then hit the
pool. I never really had a setup quite like

[Ian Landsman]: this before. It's nice, because
we have the beach, obviously, out there. And

[Ian Landsman]: then you come in from the beach,
and there's the pool and the house. So you

[Ian Landsman]: start at the beach, then you
hit the pool, kind of like fully cleanse and

[Ian Landsman]: refresh, and then... Boom, you're
in the house hanging out. I mean, this is like

[Ian Landsman]: the theater room. I watched
messy in here the other night. I'll be watching

[Ian Landsman]: messy in here tonight again.

[Aaron]: Amazing.

[Ian Landsman]: So that's really

[Aaron]: OK,

[Ian Landsman]: cool.

[Aaron]: so I have I have opinions about the
beach and

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: the pool.

[Ian Landsman]: Oh, interesting.

[Aaron]: The beach, the beach is kind of frustrating
to me because the way that I've always done

[Aaron]: it is you pack up all your stuff, you
schlep it out there onto the beach. It's, you

[Aaron]: know, it's 100 degrees. You're covered

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: in sand. You get out there and then
you're expected to just sit there in the salt

[Aaron]: and the sun for hours.

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe

[Aaron]: and then you gotta walk all the way
back to the house for lunch.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: I love the pool. I love going to the
beach and sitting in a pool. That is my absolute

[Aaron]: favorite. You can wander outside, hop
in the pool, wander back inside. I just don't

[Aaron]: like- I don't like packing it up and
walking down the boardwalk.

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe

[Aaron]: Does that make me an old man or just
lazy or what does that say?

[Ian Landsman]: No, but let me tell you, I used
to be like you, but I discovered the secrets

[Ian Landsman]: of the beach and I will share
with the audience the

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: secrets of the beach, okay?
So this is actually why we ended up going to

[Ian Landsman]: Martha's Vineyard when the kids
were little and for like 10 years or so. Because

[Ian Landsman]: one of the big keys to the beach,
so out, like the dragging yourself to the beach,

[Ian Landsman]: forget it, it's the worst thing
ever, especially once you have kids,

[Aaron]: Forget

[Ian Landsman]: the

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: kids,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: all the stuff,

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: the kids

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: are running around, the whole
thing's terrible. It's like you're just suicidal

[Ian Landsman]: after you just

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: walk to the beach, you're like,
that's it. So. You can't do that. Don't ever

[Ian Landsman]: do that. You gotta buy a truck.
Okay. You have

[Aaron]: Oh

[Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right.

[Aaron]: This is a low barrier to entry. You
gotta buy a truck.

[Ian Landsman]: Listen,

[Aaron]: Okay, yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: you need

[Aaron]: no,

[Ian Landsman]: a car.

[Aaron]: keep going.

[Ian Landsman]: This

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: is America. Everybody uses their
trucks as like mini vans.

[Aaron]: Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: It's fine.

[Aaron]: okay,

[Ian Landsman]: You

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: have a truck.

[Aaron]: for sure, keep going.

[Ian Landsman]: You could also do...

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: No.

[Aaron]: thought it was gonna be like, pack
an extra sandwich or something, but yeah, buy

[Aaron]: a truck. All right, keep

[Ian Landsman]: Buy

[Aaron]: going.

[Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right. Truck is
best. You could use SUV. or even a mini van

[Ian Landsman]: with four wheel drive, but you
know, a truck is best for a lot of reasons,

[Ian Landsman]: which I can tell you about.
You get a truck, you find a beach that lets

[Ian Landsman]: you drive on the beach, okay?

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: This is the solution to all
your problems,

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: because,

[Aaron]: see where this is going.

[Ian Landsman]: yes, because, right, so everything's
in the back of the truck, right?

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: You drive to the beach, you
don't have to stay near the water. So if you

[Ian Landsman]: wanna save money, if it's like,
beach vacation can be quite

[Aaron]: Oh,

[Ian Landsman]: expensive

[Aaron]: I see.

[Ian Landsman]: if you wanna be on the water,
right? So forget that. You stay

[Aaron]: Forget

[Ian Landsman]: inland.

[Aaron]: that, just buy a truck, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: You buy a truck with your savings.
You drive onto the beach. Okay. You park your

[Ian Landsman]: truck an inch

[Aaron]: For

[Ian Landsman]: from the

[Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: water. You push all the stuff
out the back. It's there. You didn't carry

[Ian Landsman]: anything. You have a huge ass
cooler with tons of food. If you have little

[Ian Landsman]: kids, all right, it's going
to get gross for a second, but you have a little

[Ian Landsman]: portable potty that's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: got the little Ziploc baggy
thing. They can go

[Aaron]: Oh,

[Ian Landsman]: to

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: the bathroom

[Aaron]: horrifying.

[Ian Landsman]: right there. You don't have
to take

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: them to the bathroom back anywhere.
And when they're done. tile everything into

[Ian Landsman]: the truck, it takes two seconds.
You drive off the beach. Most of the drive

[Ian Landsman]: on beaches, you usually end
up with a huge area of beach all to yourself.

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: It's the best thing ever. It's
fabulous.

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: So that's my recommendation.

[Aaron]: Okay, one fatal flaw is you have to
buy a new vehicle, but other than that, it's

[Aaron]: flawless. I guess, you know, if you're
flying, you could rent a truck

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: when you get there.

[Ian Landsman]: all these

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: places

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: have

[Aaron]: something.

[Ian Landsman]: rental jeeps and trucks

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: and things like that. So you
could rent it. Um, and then, Hey, a lot of

[Ian Landsman]: people now that just have, I
mean, you're in Texas. You told me there's

[Ian Landsman]: no trucks down there. Everybody's
got a truck.

[Aaron]: Oh, everybody's got a truck. Yeah,
everybody's

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: got a truck. I could

[Ian Landsman]: exactly.

[Aaron]: borrow a truck from anyone around here.
So here's something I saw on Twitter that kind

[Aaron]: of blew my mind. You're on this trip
and you're like, hey,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: I'm gonna go to this amazing little
roadside restaurant that nobody's ever heard

[Aaron]: of. It's called

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: a Waffle House. I've never been before.
What, you've never been to a Waffle

[Ian Landsman]: I've

[Aaron]: House?

[Ian Landsman]: never been to Waffle House.
This has been on my list of things to do for

[Ian Landsman]: a very long time. I don't know
if I've ever even seen a Waffle House. It's

[Ian Landsman]: crazy,

[Aaron]: What?

[Ian Landsman]: like I know. It's not even like
I've been avoiding them. I don't even believe

[Ian Landsman]: I've had the opportunity because
usually I would take the opportunity out of

[Ian Landsman]: a thing like that I've been
waiting for forever because it's like Waffle

[Ian Landsman]: House, it's such a thing.

[Aaron]: Do they not have them

[Ian Landsman]: No,

[Aaron]: in the North?

[Ian Landsman]: Northeast

[Aaron]: Really?

[Ian Landsman]: has no Waffle Houses that I've
ever seen. So, yeah. Waffle house.

[Aaron]: What did

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: was

[Aaron]: think?

[Ian Landsman]: very impressed. So it's, I mean,
I'm the day I tweeted that you said you had

[Ian Landsman]: gone there for breakfast. So
there you

[Aaron]: I had

[Ian Landsman]: go.

[Aaron]: gotten

[Ian Landsman]: It's like,

[Aaron]: it

[Ian Landsman]: yeah,

[Aaron]: for breakfast. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: it's a regular staple, but it
was great. It's

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: like,

[Aaron]: really

[Ian Landsman]: there's no vegetables.

[Aaron]: is.

[Ian Landsman]: There's like, there's waffles
and that's it. And like, you know, sandwiches

[Aaron]: No vegetables,

[Ian Landsman]: and hash

[Aaron]: waffles.

[Ian Landsman]: browns.

[Aaron]: Put it on my tombstone, which

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: unfortunately may be coming soon if
I keep going to Waffle House. But yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: That was good.

[Aaron]: it's like an American classic.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: I was surprised.

[Aaron]: so Waffle House is everywhere down
here. They also like weirdly never close. And

[Ian Landsman]: Right, I saw

[Aaron]: they

[Ian Landsman]: that.

[Aaron]: have, I don't know if they have a super
robust supply chain or what. But there's

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: like a way that you can measure how
bad a natural disaster is. And it's like called

[Aaron]: the Waffle House Index.

[Ian Landsman]: Ha

[Aaron]: And it's

[Ian Landsman]: ha

[Aaron]: like, how quickly did Waffle House
reopen slash did they ever close? It's very

[Aaron]: interesting. I don't know the full
details, but Waffle Houses are everywhere down

[Aaron]: here. I went on, uh, I guess that was,
would have been Friday, um,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm,

[Aaron]: for

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: breakfast. So every, every three weeks
we have this group of guys that gets together

[Aaron]: and goes, goes to breakfast. Um, it's
like. The only time everyone is available is,

[Aaron]: you know, 7 a.m. on Friday morning.
So there are like, there are probably eight

[Aaron]: of us in this group. And yeah, it's
awesome. And

[Ian Landsman]: real world.

[Aaron]: we usually, we usually go to this place
called John's Cafe, which is terrible.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: But when there are only, when there
are five or fewer of us that

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: RSVP, yes, we go to Waffle House because
Waffle House has, you know, those tables that

[Aaron]: you cannot move that only

[Ian Landsman]: I noticed

[Aaron]: seat

[Ian Landsman]: that.

[Aaron]: four people. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yes.

[Aaron]: And so we'll go to Waffle House and
the food. is incredible. It is like, it's the

[Aaron]: dirtiest, dineriest place you've ever
been,

[Ian Landsman]: It

[Aaron]: but the

[Ian Landsman]: is.

[Aaron]: food is amazing. And they like, you
ask for eggs, soft scrambled, and they make

[Aaron]: eggs, soft scrambled. Like they know
how to make eggs. It's, it's great. I love

[Aaron]: Waffle House.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, I love those places. See
that it's like, I'm sure this goes into that

[Ian Landsman]: index is like, there's basically
like what, like 10 ingredients on the whole

[Ian Landsman]: menu, you know, it's just like
the same things just like ordered differently

[Ian Landsman]: and, and so like, yeah, they
probably have an easy time reopening and they

[Ian Landsman]: only have to know how to do
a few things. You can get a chef. It's not

[Ian Landsman]: like they're making a bunch
of like a regular diet. And in Northeast, we

[Ian Landsman]: have tons of regular diners

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and it's just like, they have
400 items. There's like pot roast and eggs

[Ian Landsman]: and whatever sandwiches and
pasta and whatever it does,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: all these different things.
And usually it's all. Gross. And I want us

[Ian Landsman]: to get Waffle Houses. I need
Waffle Houses. The other thing, so I need Waffle

[Ian Landsman]: Houses. These are my big things
from the South. I need Waffle Houses and I

[Ian Landsman]: need Brew Thrus. Do you have
Brew Thrus there?

[Aaron]: A brew through? I think

[Ian Landsman]: Yes.

[Aaron]: I know what that is, but I don't, I
don't know if that's a brand name. That's not

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: something

[Ian Landsman]: like,

[Aaron]: we say down here.

[Ian Landsman]: okay, it's like, uh, it's like
a car wash. All

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: right. Like a drive through
car wash. But when you drive through it, instead

[Ian Landsman]: of your car getting washed,
there's just refrigerators along the side

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: where you get beer and you just
drive through. It's unbelievable. I'm like,

[Ian Landsman]: what genius thought of this?
Like, I don't know why we don't have these

[Ian Landsman]: in the Northeast. Like just
drive through and get your beer.

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: It's amazing.

[Aaron]: that's I didn't realize that was something
that wasn't everywhere. Yeah, we have

[Ian Landsman]: No.

[Aaron]: I think we call them in Texas, we have
a few beer barns drive through beer

[Ian Landsman]: Okay.

[Aaron]: barns.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: And then I do remember in. So I went
to I went to college at Texas A&M, which is

[Aaron]: down in, you know, college station
small, small town.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: We had a drive through margarita barn.
And

[Ian Landsman]: Ooh.

[Aaron]: so they would Yeah, so you could drive
through and get all kinds of different margaritas.

[Aaron]: And for the dear listener, You would
not drink them until you got home, obviously,

[Ian Landsman]: Obviously.

[Aaron]: because they would put tape over the
lid and you couldn't open it. It was impossible.

[Aaron]: There was a little piece of tape on
it and it was like, oh, I guess I'll have to

[Ian Landsman]: How

[Aaron]: wait

[Ian Landsman]: would you

[Aaron]: until

[Ian Landsman]: ever get

[Aaron]: I get

[Ian Landsman]: through

[Aaron]: home

[Ian Landsman]: that? Right.

[Aaron]: to open

[Ian Landsman]: You need

[Aaron]: this

[Ian Landsman]: scissors.

[Aaron]: because you need scissors. Yeah, so,
yeah, that's funny. Yeah, Waffle House and

[Aaron]: Beer Barns and a truck on every corner.
That's,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: you got it. That's the South.

[Ian Landsman]: There

[Aaron]: Good

[Ian Landsman]: we

[Aaron]: to

[Ian Landsman]: go.

[Aaron]: be back, baby. I love

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: being home.

[Ian Landsman]: I know. I don't get down to
like this part like southy south that much.

[Ian Landsman]: Like it's only every few years.
Like I sometimes end up in Florida or a place

[Ian Landsman]: like that, which is sort of
its own weird thing. I don't know.

[Aaron]: It is its own weird thing, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Don't put that, don't ascribe that
to us. I don't want Florida.

[Ian Landsman]: Right. It doesn't feel like
North Carolina Virginia type South to me. I

[Ian Landsman]: don't know

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: seems different. So yeah, it's
been great. How was your drive back? Because

[Ian Landsman]: you were making the long haul
there.

[Aaron]: I was, yeah. Made the long haul, made
it, made it back. Listened to book two of the

[Aaron]: Three Body Problem trilogy, the

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: entire

[Ian Landsman]: wanna do that.

[Aaron]: way. Incredible. It's so, so good.

[Ian Landsman]: I'm excited

[Aaron]: It is unlike any sci-fi book I've ever
read.

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm

[Aaron]: So it's very, very good. And the second
book has this, has this like, maybe literary

[Aaron]: device that is extremely, it just,
It keeps your mind spinning the entire time

[Aaron]: of like,

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: how would I, what would I do in this
situation? How would I, it's like almost like

[Aaron]: a logic puzzle that the characters
are playing through. And

[Ian Landsman]: Interesting.

[Aaron]: it's very good. So,

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: highly recommended. I made two stops.
I stopped in Cleveland again. And then I stopped

[Aaron]: in Little Rock, Arkansas, about four
and a half hours from home. I thought I could

[Aaron]: power through. But man, when you're
driving and the sleepies hit, you don't wanna

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: battle the sleepies on the road because
it takes two seconds and you're gone.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, four hours is still, it's
a pretty good hall of the power through

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: extremes, tiredness. Yeah, that's
a, that's a good stop. And you didn't have

[Ian Landsman]: the kids and stuff with you.
So it's like,

[Aaron]: Right.

[Ian Landsman]: uh, whatever, it just pop in
and it's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: easy.

[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. So I'm back feeling
much better being home in my space with a little

[Aaron]: bit of routine. Kids start school,
I think maybe next week. And life is going

[Aaron]: to be totally different.

[Ian Landsman]: know this has been like the
worst summer ever in terms of like I had all

[Ian Landsman]: these plans for things I was
gonna do this summer and just like the kids

[Ian Landsman]: had so many activities it was
just constant running around between three

[Ian Landsman]: kids and only two adults and
we're both every day like dropping somebody

[Ian Landsman]: off picking somebody up or it
was brutal and just so it's just so distracting

[Ian Landsman]: obviously then when you're just
taking out of your zone like one of the kids

[Ian Landsman]: for every other Every other
day for like three weeks had a two hour camp

[Ian Landsman]: that was like noon to two or
something,

[Aaron]: That is

[Ian Landsman]: just like

[Aaron]: not enough.

[Ian Landsman]: crazy stuff.

[Aaron]: Two hours

[Ian Landsman]: You know?

[Aaron]: is

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: not enough.

[Ian Landsman]: It was crazy.

[Aaron]: Like you barely make it home before
you have to go

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: back.

[Ian Landsman]: Exactly. So my whole summer
just totally blew up on my, um, productivity

[Ian Landsman]: that I was expecting, but that's
all right. We'll get everybody back in school

[Ian Landsman]: and get back to the normal grind,
which will be nice.

[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. You wanna do some follow
ups? We have a

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: few.

[Ian Landsman]: let's do some follow up. All
right, well the first one is, immediately after

[Ian Landsman]: the last episode, Nuno wrote
back that in Volt, you can actually put the

[Ian Landsman]: blade template on the top of
the file. So if you haven't seen Volt, it's

[Ian Landsman]: a single page livewire blade
file combo package. And so you can put the

[Ian Landsman]: blade file on top and then the
PHP livewire logic on the bottom, which also

[Ian Landsman]: then lets you... get rid of
the PHP tag then. So, because you don't need

[Ian Landsman]: the ending PHP tag, you start

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: the PHP tag after the bleed
template. I don't know, what do you think about

[Ian Landsman]: this? I tried it out, I wasn't

[Aaron]: Love

[Ian Landsman]: sure, I don't know. I think

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: I like it, but it's sort

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: of,

[Aaron]: love it because that's the

[Ian Landsman]: it's

[Aaron]: way

[Ian Landsman]: kind of

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: Vue,

[Aaron]: do my

[Ian Landsman]: right?

[Aaron]: view single file

[Ian Landsman]: Right,

[Aaron]: components

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: is I would always put the template
tag at the top and the script tag at the bottom.

[Aaron]: And now people are coming into my space
and telling me I gotta do script setup and

[Aaron]: I gotta put script setup and do the
composition API and nah man. I put the template

[Aaron]: at the top,

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Aaron]: the script at the bottom. So this for
Volt, this feels good to me.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, people seem very excited
about that tweet. So if you don't know about

[Ian Landsman]: that and you've been trying
to give that a shot and see how you like it,

[Ian Landsman]: all right, we have another one,
right?

[Aaron]: Yep, we got another one. On the first
episode, we talked about how Tobias' indexing

[Aaron]: book, his landing page, was really,
really beautiful. And turns out it's the same

[Aaron]: designer that has done all the new
filament stuff. And I think he's full time

[Aaron]: on the filament team

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: now. His name is Hassan Zaharina. Close.
I definitely know it's Hassan. We'll put the

[Aaron]: link to his website in the show notes.
But he's done the sushi landing page, which

[Aaron]: is Caleb Porzio's array driver for
Eloquent. He's done Tobias' indexing book,

[Aaron]: he's done filament, so he's done all
kinds of great stuff. And I've seen him around

[Aaron]: the community a lot, I just didn't
know that he did Tobias' book, so I wanted

[Aaron]: to follow up with that and give him
a shout out for that.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, his work's really interesting.
I like it's kind of fresh and different. And

[Ian Landsman]: I always like

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: having

[Aaron]: is kind of

[Ian Landsman]: designers

[Aaron]: fresh, right?

[Ian Landsman]: in the mix, new designers in
the mix, designers in the Laravel sort of family

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: and sphere is always good to
have. And yeah, the Susie Page stands out a

[Ian Landsman]: lot for sure and the new filament

[Aaron]: I feel like

[Ian Landsman]: site is great.

[Aaron]: his design is a little bit more fun
and lively. It's a little bit bubbly.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And it's really, really good. I just
love that everyone has a different. This is

[Aaron]: very different than the stuff that
the Tailwind Labs team puts out. And I like

[Aaron]: that. They're both good, but I like
that this is a little bit more fun and bubbly.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, a little different.
The colors, colors too are definitely kind

[Ian Landsman]: of not your standard.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: You know, what's going, what's
hot lately of it's black and white or it's,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: you know,

[Aaron]: BG blue to BG purple

[Ian Landsman]: right.

[Aaron]: gradient. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: That kind of thing. Like, so
a little, little different there stands

[Aaron]: So if,

[Ian Landsman]: out.

[Aaron]: as a reminder, if you wanna get, shout
it out to upwards of 15 to 20 people, send

[Aaron]: us mail. We have mailbag,

[Ian Landsman]: Hey!

[Aaron]: we will read it out on the air. So
I forget where to send it, so I'm gonna throw

[Aaron]: it over to Ian. Where do people send
their mail?

[Ian Landsman]: Uh, mostly technical pod at
gmail.com.

[Aaron]: Oh good,

[Ian Landsman]: I believe

[Aaron]: that was, I put you on

[Ian Landsman]: pretty

[Aaron]: the spot,

[Ian Landsman]: sure.

[Aaron]: that was perfect, yeah. Pretty

[Ian Landsman]: Pretty

[Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: sure that's true. I'm pretty

[Aaron]: Also,

[Ian Landsman]: sure

[Aaron]: also

[Ian Landsman]: it'll be in

[Aaron]: Twitter.

[Ian Landsman]: the show notes for

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: sure.

[Aaron]: it'll be

[Ian Landsman]: So

[Aaron]: in the show

[Ian Landsman]: just

[Aaron]: notes for sure, for

[Ian Landsman]: check

[Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: there just in case, but I'm
pretty sure that's correct.

[Aaron]: Yeah, that sounds right. So thanks
for

[Ian Landsman]: We'll

[Aaron]: those

[Ian Landsman]: get

[Aaron]: followups.

[Ian Landsman]: this down.

[Aaron]: Yeah. All right, where do you wanna
go next?

[Ian Landsman]: Well, we'll go into Laravel
stuff a little bit earlier. How about that?

[Ian Landsman]: Let's say we get some under
our belt.

[Aaron]: Wow.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Something different We got this
lift package

[Aaron]: Yeah, so I saw this. Tell me, one,
tell me what it is, and then tell me your opinions

[Aaron]: on it.

[Ian Landsman]: Um, hold on. Let me just get,
see what we're doing. You get to watch us run

[Ian Landsman]: the show here because I want
to have Uh it up in front of me. Why is this

[Ian Landsman]: not working?

[Ian Landsman]: vacation podcasting is not ideal.

[Aaron]: We're talking Wendell Adriel's Laravel

[Ian Landsman]: That's what

[Aaron]: lift.

[Ian Landsman]: I'm looking for. See, you got
the

[Aaron]: Hey,

[Ian Landsman]: name.

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: I wanted

[Aaron]: got

[Ian Landsman]: his last

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: name.

[Aaron]: Come

[Ian Landsman]: I knew it's

[Aaron]: on.

[Ian Landsman]: Wendell. I was thinking about
his Wendell, but not, not...

[Aaron]: You didn't know it was Wendell. I knew
it was Wendell.

[Ian Landsman]: I knew it was Wendell,

[Aaron]: You're you're

[Ian Landsman]: but

[Aaron]: over there fumbling in the in the messy

[Ian Landsman]: I know.

[Aaron]: room. You

[Ian Landsman]: All

[Aaron]: don't know anything. OK, you have

[Ian Landsman]: right,

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: so

[Aaron]: You have the GitHub pulled up.

[Ian Landsman]: I've got it. So yeah, so Wendell's

[Aaron]: OK.

[Ian Landsman]: package. Wendell, just a great
name, by the way. I don't

[Aaron]: Great

[Ian Landsman]: think I've ever

[Aaron]: name.

[Ian Landsman]: met a Wendell in person,

[Aaron]: No,

[Ian Landsman]: but

[Aaron]: great

[Ian Landsman]: I love

[Aaron]: name.

[Ian Landsman]: that name.

[Aaron]: Congrats, Wendell, great name.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, he hit the lottery
of the...

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: the naming,

[Aaron]: seriously.

[Ian Landsman]: parents did a good job there.
Yeah, so Lyft is this kind of crazy package

[Ian Landsman]: that lets you define a whole
bunch of stuff about eloquent models with attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: And

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: I just have a lot of thoughts
here, but

[Aaron]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Ian Landsman]: a lot of thoughts. But first
of all, before we even get into the package,

[Ian Landsman]: what's your just general take
on attributes

[Aaron]: Yeah, see,

[Ian Landsman]: in PHP?

[Aaron]: this is where we're gonna end up.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: You know, Ian, I don't love him. I
really don't.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that was my take initially
as well.

[Aaron]: Initially, wow, this is a setup for
conflict that makes good

[Ian Landsman]: Possibly,

[Aaron]: radio. So

[Ian Landsman]: possibly.

[Aaron]: here's the thing, one, I'm not familiar
with them. And so I'm super aware that what

[Aaron]: looks good to me is 70% what I'm familiar
with. And I think that that's everybody. And

[Aaron]: so I'm looking at all of these attributes.
Even back in the day for a hot minute, there

[Aaron]: was, let's do all of our routing. by
putting little attributes over the controller

[Aaron]: methods. And I was like, no way,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: I hate that,

[Ian Landsman]: no, I don't

[Aaron]: hideous.

[Ian Landsman]: know that's a terrible idea.

[Aaron]: Yeah, so hated that. Attributes in
general still seem foreign to me. And I think

[Aaron]: part of what I don't like about it
is it feels like, man, it feels, maybe it feels

[Aaron]: like you scatter one thing that used
to be centralized into a bunch of different

[Aaron]: places. like the routing is a good
example. I like to have a routes file. I don't

[Aaron]: want to have like my route definitions
littered all over the place.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: Um, and I also, maybe this is a knowledge
gap. I don't fully know how they work and what

[Aaron]: all can be influenced. And I don't
think I would remember to check like, Oh, you

[Aaron]: got to go check the annotation or the,
or the attribute or whatever. And so I don't

[Aaron]: know. And he's the, you can like pass
arguments. And so then you're like, I don't

[Aaron]: know. Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: that, yeah, I'll stop there. Tell me
your journey with attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, I haven't had like the
full journey yet, I guess, but I definitely

[Ian Landsman]: didn't like when people were
trying to do it with the annotations and like,

[Ian Landsman]: it's like a comment that has
all the stuff

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: in it. Like I hate the comments
with the stuff in it. I don't want to comment

[Aaron]: Oh, so

[Ian Landsman]: at all.

[Aaron]: like

[Ian Landsman]: And I don't

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: want comments with stuff in
it.

[Aaron]: PHP Doc Blocks, that version?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Like I don't

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: like DocBlocks in general. And
I don't like, I mean, at some point there was

[Ian Landsman]: something you do in there, right?
And like the IDE

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: would like do certain stuff
with it or whatever. It was like, even like

[Ian Landsman]: type. management stuff like
that, which obviously is a common use case,

[Ian Landsman]: but I just hate that. I don't
like the syntax. It's so it's a big like eyesore

[Ian Landsman]: in your way of reading the code.
So I definitely prefer this over those, but

[Ian Landsman]: I agree. Like when I first saw
the attributes in general, I was like, I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know. But here and there, there's
been more use cases like LiveWire uses them

[Ian Landsman]: pretty heavily in LiveWire

[Aaron]: They

[Ian Landsman]: 3.

[Aaron]: do.

[Ian Landsman]: A lot of the spaddy packages
use them now in different ways and kind of

[Ian Landsman]: I'm kind of seeing it. I mean,
there's definitely the big limitation is that

[Ian Landsman]: you can't like do anything dynamic
in them. And that does

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: sometimes cause some oddities
like with translation

[Aaron]: Hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: strings and things like that
where like you need to be able to do something

[Ian Landsman]: dynamically. So there are some,
like even in this package,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: like if you use it for a rule
and you pass a string, like you can't translate

[Ian Landsman]: that string. So if you want
to override

[Aaron]: Got

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: the rules message, you have
no way to translate it. Um, which

[Aaron]: Got

[Ian Landsman]: is semi

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: edge case, but there's a fair
amount of apps that are translated. So there

[Ian Landsman]: are, there is stuff like

[Aaron]: Hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: that, but I don't know for,
for eloquent, I do kind of feel like this is

[Ian Landsman]: pretty interesting because it's
like, instead of looking three or four or five

[Ian Landsman]: places in the file for different
configurations, I can just

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: see them all here and they're
like, so it's sort of like a, in that way,

[Ian Landsman]: like a routes file, it's like,
I can just go to this one place. and see

[Aaron]: Oh man,

[Ian Landsman]: everything applied

[Aaron]: you got

[Ian Landsman]: to the

[Aaron]: me.

[Ian Landsman]: name instead of going to like
the different methods that do the relationship

[Ian Landsman]: and then do the type and like
whatever, do the rule

[Aaron]: Okay, so give

[Ian Landsman]: and

[Aaron]: us

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: all

[Aaron]: two

[Ian Landsman]: this stuff.

[Aaron]: second overview of what's happening
in this package so people know.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so in the package, a lot
of the stuff you can define in Eloquent already

[Ian Landsman]: through like methods or different
ways like that. You can or like in properties

[Ian Landsman]: like fillable, the fillable
property and things like that. You can just

[Ian Landsman]: do as attributes right next
to the public property. So. you can just have

[Ian Landsman]: that it's fillable. It's like
a fillable attribute. And then there's a cast

[Ian Landsman]: attribute if you want to cast
it. So these aren't, you don't have to put

[Ian Landsman]: this name property in the fillable
array. And then again, in the cast thing. And

[Ian Landsman]: then if you have a relationship
based

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: on it, it can, that could be
defined here. So you can have all these things

[Ian Landsman]: in one spot. You can have your
validation rules there. So you don't have like

[Ian Landsman]: the separate rules array and
all that. So it's interesting. I don't, so

[Ian Landsman]: I haven't even used it yet.
I've just been sort of following along and

[Ian Landsman]: every day he's kind of adding
new

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: attributes. But I feel like
there's something here. I wouldn't mind, there's

[Ian Landsman]: like a technique I like to call
something being outwelled. I wouldn't

[Aaron]: Huh?

[Ian Landsman]: mind it maybe being outwelled
by the man himself because, you

[Aaron]: Ha

[Ian Landsman]: know, he

[Aaron]: ha

[Ian Landsman]: always has a great vision on
interfaces

[Aaron]: Yeah He does

[Ian Landsman]: and APIs

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: and things. And so... There's
probably some stuff he might be able to, uh,

[Ian Landsman]: do here, but I don't know. I
feel like there is something here because that

[Ian Landsman]: is always one of the things
that in a big eloquent file does get a little

[Ian Landsman]: bit annoying.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: That it's like, okay, I have
this, you know, property I need to like check

[Ian Landsman]: in 10 places, like where all
it's doing and whatnot. And so, I don't know,

[Ian Landsman]: having this one place to have
everything defined about it is, is kind of

[Ian Landsman]: intriguing. But you're,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you're not, you're not buying
it yet. You're not

[Aaron]: I'm

[Ian Landsman]: in.

[Aaron]: not sold. And the only reason I'm not
sold is because of... is truly because of my

[Aaron]: distaste on the strong side and not
being familiar on the kind side of annotations

[Aaron]: or whatever they're

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: called. So one thing I do like is that
we're still exploring. Like, I love

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: that Wendell did this because... There
can be, I think, sometimes like a sense that

[Aaron]: Laravel is almost complete

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: and we're lucky for that. But this
is this is a good like, hey, I've got an opinion

[Aaron]: and the opinion is, you know, I want
to use annotations. And I think I'm going to

[Aaron]: try to pull it off. Love that. Absolutely
love that. I'm not yet sold on the language

[Aaron]: feature

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm

[Aaron]: yet. And so that makes this package
be something that I look at and I'm like, ah.

[Aaron]: I don't want to do that. This is kind
of the same way I feel about super strong types.

[Aaron]: Like if somebody were to

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: tell me, oh, you could add this package,
you could use PHP stand level nine and get

[Aaron]: super strict typing. It's like, I don't
really want to do that.

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: I'm not super interested in that. But
I do like anything in the eloquent space and

[Aaron]: I do like that we're still trying to
push the ball forward. But yeah, I can see.

[Aaron]: Like I can see people are really gonna
like this, especially people that like annotations.

[Aaron]: Are they annotations or attributes?
What are they actually

[Ian Landsman]: No,

[Aaron]: called?

[Ian Landsman]: am I calling them annotations?
Maybe that, yeah, I think

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: they

[Aaron]: think

[Ian Landsman]: are attributes.

[Aaron]: I was calling them attributes,

[Ian Landsman]: Yes, I mean,

[Aaron]: but I think they're annotations.

[Ian Landsman]: no,

[Aaron]: No,

[Ian Landsman]: it's

[Aaron]: is it

[Ian Landsman]: attributes.

[Aaron]: the other way around?

[Ian Landsman]: Yes,

[Aaron]: It's attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: it's attributes. I think we
got ourselves mixed up there in the beginning,

[Ian Landsman]: but it's attributes,

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: yes. Yeah,

[Aaron]: Yeah, well, that's confusing.

[Ian Landsman]: well, it's so new. We don't
even know what to call these

[Aaron]: We

[Ian Landsman]: things.

[Aaron]: don't, yeah exactly. How am I supposed

[Ian Landsman]: It's so

[Aaron]: to like

[Ian Landsman]: new,

[Aaron]: something?

[Ian Landsman]: it's like

[Aaron]: I don't

[Ian Landsman]: three

[Aaron]: even know

[Ian Landsman]: years

[Aaron]: what it is.

[Ian Landsman]: old, but you know,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: we don't know what to

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: call them.

[Aaron]: exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, the attributes, so. The
other thing that with this kind of package,

[Ian Landsman]: always I'm a little cautious
is cause like it's really messing with something

[Ian Landsman]: that's deep baked into the core
and that a lot of things expect to work a certain

[Ian Landsman]: way and who knows if in some
edge case somewhere, it doesn't work that certain

[Ian Landsman]: way and you don't discover that
for quite a while until you hit the weirdo

[Ian Landsman]: edge case where it actually
doesn't load up properly or whatever. So

[Aaron]: Yeah, that's one of

[Ian Landsman]: there's.

[Aaron]: the tough parts about this.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I haven't looked into
how it works like internally. So I have no

[Ian Landsman]: idea if that's, if there's anything
like that, but I do, that is just an area where

[Ian Landsman]: I do get a little cautious.
It's not one of these packages that's like

[Ian Landsman]: its own thing and whatever it's,

[Aaron]: Right,

[Ian Landsman]: you know,

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: it'll be clear if it's working
or not, cause it just adds a feature. Uh, this

[Ian Landsman]: is a little different where
everything, everything's going through this

[Ian Landsman]: thing and so,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: uh, it's a little scarier, but
yeah.

[Aaron]: Yeah, also one of the tough spots for
me is putting the rules in the model itself.

[Aaron]: Um, because I think that's good a lot
of the times, but then rules can be context

[Aaron]: dependent. And so I've always, this,
this package aside, I've always had a hard

[Aaron]: time centralizing the rules into

[Ian Landsman]: I was just gonna

[Aaron]: the model.

[Ian Landsman]: ask you about that. Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: Yeah. It's like,

[Ian Landsman]: Just in general,

[Aaron]: well, well in,

[Ian Landsman]: what do you do? What do you
like to do with your

[Aaron]: oh

[Ian Landsman]: rules?

[Aaron]: man, I don't

[Ian Landsman]: This

[Aaron]: know.

[Ian Landsman]: is like the eternal

[Aaron]: It's the

[Ian Landsman]: struggle

[Aaron]: worst.

[Ian Landsman]: I have,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: yes.

[Aaron]: so the problem is, and I've tried centralizing
it before and basically making my own kind

[Aaron]: of like rules factory, rules object
thing.

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: It just doesn't work. So

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: here's the problem. Here's the problem
as I see it. You've got HTTP coming in and

[Aaron]: the rules could be different based
on permissions or the... the

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: state that the model is in, all kinds
of things, right? And that's just HTTP. Then

[Aaron]: you've got

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: command line tools that you're working
with where you can, as the super admin or whatever,

[Aaron]: you go in and you're like, ah, I need
to process these 50 customers. I'm just gonna

[Aaron]: run this command line tool. And then
you've got background jobs. You've got all

[Aaron]: these places that can touch a model
and every situation is so different that the

[Aaron]: rules are necessarily different. And
while it's good to say like, the name is always

[Aaron]: required, like that may be the only
one that is always true.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And I don't want to put that somewhere
and then these other rules somewhere else.

[Aaron]: And so I feel like I end up

[Ian Landsman]: Yep.

[Aaron]: recreating the rules just to have safety
that I'm validating the right thing at the

[Aaron]: right time.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: There's like, I just, I don't know.
I don't know the better way.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I don't know. It's like,
I almost, I have toy, uh, like I've been playing

[Ian Landsman]: around with the DTOs and things
like that, because

[Aaron]: Uh huh.

[Ian Landsman]: like they let you validate,
but there is still these scenarios where like

[Ian Landsman]: the data is different on create
versus update. And then

[Aaron]: quarterly.

[Ian Landsman]: you have like something that's
optional sometimes. And then sometimes that

[Ian Landsman]: gets weird with the DTO and
like, so then you have these like classes for

[Ian Landsman]: optional, like in the spotty
package and you have like, you know, you have

[Ian Landsman]: all this like tight pinning
that's going on and multiple type hints and

[Ian Landsman]: like, it's just like, I don't
know. It's, I want, I want it to be like that.

[Ian Landsman]: I want it to

[Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: be, here's the central location,
all the magic's here. I don't have to worry

[Ian Landsman]: about it. But then in practice,
yeah, like in, I mean, this is a big thing

[Ian Landsman]: too. I feel like that if you're
not, haven't built a real app or, I just feel

[Ian Landsman]: like when you have real apps
that customers use, there's just all these

[Ian Landsman]: things that you have to do that
are not. perfect and you have to duplicate

[Ian Landsman]: code sometimes or things like
that because ultimately like the app just has

[Ian Landsman]: to work a certain way and the
nice way that the framework or the package

[Ian Landsman]: or whatever would want you to
do it just it doesn't work it doesn't

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: work and so it just ends up
being more complicated or you do all a bunch

[Ian Landsman]: of weird stuff to make it work
but now it's all these edge cases are created

[Ian Landsman]: or like just more complexity
of figuring out what's even going on versus

[Ian Landsman]: if you just had a rules array
in two different spots, that was basically

[Ian Landsman]: the same except for, you know,
one or two differences or whatnot. So.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I feel like this is that's why
we don't have it as a first party primitive,

[Aaron]: like

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Laravel has given us the powerful validator
and the rules and the form requests. And Laravel

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: has given us all of that. And I feel
like the reason we don't have validation built

[Aaron]: into the eloquent model is for that
exact reason. It's because

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it's too hard. Like there are too many
different ways that you might want to update

[Aaron]: a model in too many different scenarios
that having a static rules array. just isn't

[Aaron]: viable in a real application.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. This is another thing
I've been thinking about lately is I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know. I'll be interested to
get your take on it. I feel like every time

[Ian Landsman]: I stray away from that. So this
is kind of even somewhat counter to what we're

[Ian Landsman]: just saying, but every time
I stray away from the eloquent model is sort

[Ian Landsman]: of the, the core of logic, so
to speak, um, I don't even

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: know how to describe this, but
if like, like even with messing with the DTOs

[Ian Landsman]: and things like that,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: it just gets like so much more
complicated

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and the benefits. I feel like.
I always see them in the app, like I'm reading

[Ian Landsman]: about something. I'm like, oh,
this would be amazing. And then you try to

[Ian Landsman]: implement it and you're like,
oh yeah, but this thing and the other thing,

[Ian Landsman]: and it doesn't work in this
scenario and all those things. And I'm like,

[Ian Landsman]: oh, I should have just like
stuck with like calling the eloquent model,

[Ian Landsman]: like create in this controller
and everything would have been

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: fine. But instead I

[Aaron]: Correct.

[Ian Landsman]: got fancy

[Aaron]: Ha.

[Ian Landsman]: and now it's like taking me
three extra days and

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: I don't even know what's going
on. So

[Aaron]: Now I'm

[Ian Landsman]: I don't

[Aaron]: wrapped

[Ian Landsman]: know what

[Aaron]: around

[Ian Landsman]: your

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: thoughts

[Aaron]: axle

[Ian Landsman]: are.

[Aaron]: of misdirection and

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: yep, I am an eloquent slash active
record maximalist.

[Ian Landsman]: Okay, yeah.

[Aaron]: As much as I can do, give me a super
fat model with methods for everything and I'm

[Aaron]: a happy man. So

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I feel the same way. I will say that
I try to stick to... I try to stick to... the

[Aaron]: conventions elsewhere, like form requests
are a good example

[Ian Landsman]: Yep.

[Aaron]: because you can validate those, get
all your correct data out, and then throw it

[Aaron]: into an eloquent model.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: But yeah, the whole, I feel like I
don't want to open this can of worms, but event

[Aaron]: sourcing is one of them where

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: That's even like the next

[Aaron]: oh

[Ian Landsman]: level. Yeah.

[Aaron]: man, what am I doing? And maybe

[Ian Landsman]: Yup.

[Aaron]: we can have Daniel on at some point
to argue with us, Daniel

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Coborn, and he'll tell me why it's
good. But that's one of those things where

[Aaron]: I'm like... You know, man, I'm just
gonna do my model thing. So yeah, I feel the

[Aaron]: same way.

[Ian Landsman]: One thing I have sort of taken
in and use a lot now is actions, like the action

[Ian Landsman]: pattern. I

[Aaron]: Oh,

[Ian Landsman]: do

[Aaron]: tell

[Ian Landsman]: like that

[Aaron]: me.

[Ian Landsman]: a lot. Yeah. Like

[Aaron]: Somebody

[Ian Landsman]: there's a layerable

[Aaron]: was just

[Ian Landsman]: action package

[Aaron]: asking

[Ian Landsman]: that works

[Aaron]: me

[Ian Landsman]: really good.

[Aaron]: if I used actions and I said that I
haven't, but I wish I had in certain cases.

[Aaron]: So tell me what you're using them for.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I love the actions
because it's pretty much just like calling

[Ian Landsman]: the active record, you know,
create or whatever you're trying to do. It's

[Ian Landsman]: just like one little step of
abstraction from that. And then in a real world

[Ian Landsman]: app, I find that it's quite
useful because it's. So the action is just

[Ian Landsman]: like a PHP class for people
who don't know. If you use the Laravel actions

[Ian Landsman]: package, it does some nice like
helpers and stuff for you, so I would recommend

[Ian Landsman]: that I've used that quite a
bit. Um, I don't use that, that thing goes

[Ian Landsman]: a little crazy and starts to
get a little too much for me. Like you can

[Ian Landsman]: just take this action and have
it be your whole controller. You

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: could take this action and have
it be your whole job and things like that.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: So that, I actually don't use
those parts because it starts to get like in

[Ian Landsman]: the super magical territory.
I just

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: use it as an action. And so
ways you just call this class, like where you

[Ian Landsman]: would call like post create
or whatever, you might just have like a create

[Ian Landsman]: post action. And so you call
that and you can just pass in your validated

[Ian Landsman]: data or whatever.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: And so what I like about that
though, is it gives you this nice central spot

[Ian Landsman]: for if you have other business
logic, which in like a real world app, you

[Ian Landsman]: tend to. And so it's like, well,
when I do this, I also have to like, just do

[Ian Landsman]: this other thing. Right. And
so instead of having to duplicate that in the

[Ian Landsman]: multiple places of yes, I have
it in this controller and I have another controller

[Ian Landsman]: and I have a command line thing
that does it and as a web hook, then it's a

[Ian Landsman]: different controller and whatever,
so you can just have this, the action that

[Ian Landsman]: you call everywhere. You pass
the data. So that's centralized. If you have

[Ian Landsman]: other stuff to do, maybe you
have to like fire an event or whatever, you

[Ian Landsman]: don't have to duplicate all
that code everywhere. So it just gives you

[Ian Landsman]: that one step back, but it's
not complicated. Like you can just go

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: into that. It's very clear.
Usually they're very short and it's super testable.

[Ian Landsman]: Like it's like, this is this
one

[Aaron]: Yeah, that's true.

[Ian Landsman]: function. I can just easily
write tests for it. Um, and the package also

[Ian Landsman]: has nice helpers for that. You
don't need to use a package. Like you can just

[Ian Landsman]: build a PHP class and do this,
but The package does have some niceties like

[Ian Landsman]: test helpers and things, which
are really great. And yeah, so I really like

[Ian Landsman]: the actions. That is one that
stuck with me because it's pretty much like

[Ian Landsman]: active recordy really, but

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: just with a little more abstraction
so you can

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: shove

[Aaron]: it's like

[Ian Landsman]: some

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: other

[Aaron]: new,

[Ian Landsman]: stuff in there.

[Aaron]: it's like a new first class citizen
that you can then centralize some stuff in.

[Aaron]: And the thing that

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I've always like, I think this Laravel
actions package, which is very thorough and

[Aaron]: very good. I don't think that was around
back when I was doing this app that needs it.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: And the place that I think I need it
is like. when I do the same thing in multiple

[Aaron]: places, like just like we were talking
about with the rules array,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I'm doing the same thing, whether it's
like an internal customer service person is

[Aaron]: creating a property, you know, a home,
an address is creating a property. I'm bulk

[Aaron]: importing, you know, 500 properties.
We're creating a property via webhook. We're

[Aaron]: creating a property via background
job. All of those things are like

[Ian Landsman]: All right.

[Aaron]: creating a property record. and I ended
up having to be like, ah, I gotta make sure

[Aaron]: that I do the right thing four different

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: places, and it's like, ah, this would
be good to centralize. So yeah, I do like the

[Aaron]: concept of actions.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, it's really nice for that.
It's like, that's the perfect use case. Just

[Ian Landsman]: like, yep, I'm going to create
it, but then I'm going to fire this event and

[Ian Landsman]: I'm going to send an email and
I want those three things to happen every single

[Ian Landsman]: time I create this record. And
you just always know that those things are

[Ian Landsman]: happening and you can test it
and all that. So, uh, that those I really like,

[Ian Landsman]: it's just so nice and clean
and organized and all that. But, uh, Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: but I agree besides that, these
other higher level things. And this is probably,

[Ian Landsman]: I mean, I don't know, maybe
this is like, both of us have this kind of

[Ian Landsman]: background of coming from the
less formal

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: side of computer science. So
I do think there's something to that too. Although

[Ian Landsman]: I definitely know a lot of people
who learned on their own and are definitely

[Ian Landsman]: more into these type of more
advanced patterns and things, but. I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know, I tend to be very practical
in nature in these things and just be like,

[Ian Landsman]: okay,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: this is clean and easy to understand
and somebody else could understand it. If I

[Ian Landsman]: have to throw some random person
in there, right? It's not gonna take

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: them too long to learn a whole
new pattern and all this stuff that has all

[Ian Landsman]: these different rules and things.
It's like, nope, here's a PHP class and it

[Ian Landsman]: does a couple things. And

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: I get that part already and
we're good.

[Aaron]: Yeah, it's

[Ian Landsman]: We

[Aaron]: called

[Ian Landsman]: can

[Aaron]: Create

[Ian Landsman]: get productive,

[Aaron]: Post. You can figure

[Ian Landsman]: right?

[Aaron]: out what it does.

[Ian Landsman]: Exactly, it's straightforward.

[Aaron]: All right, well, good package, Wendell.
I look forward to seeing how that will develop.

[Ian Landsman]: All right, next on the list
here.

[Aaron]: You wanna talk YouTube?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, sure.

[Aaron]: PHP doesn't suck anymore.

[Ian Landsman]: doesn't we know that for sure
we're here look at that's the short version

[Ian Landsman]: of

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: the video

[Aaron]: does. Hahaha. Yeah. Thanks for tuning
in. So I made a video. I made a video and it

[Aaron]: covered like,

[Ian Landsman]: Wow. Yeah.

[Aaron]: yeah, right?

[Ian Landsman]: I just, I

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: just

[Aaron]: think

[Ian Landsman]: saw

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: your views on it.

[Aaron]: just opened

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it. Yeah. It covered some of the changes
from 2012 to now. And I picked 2012 because

[Aaron]: it's like a long time ago and you know
5.4-ish era. And I just ran through like, hey,

[Aaron]: did you guys know that we have traits
and we have types and we have enums and we

[Aaron]: have, you know, generators, that kind
of stuff. It's funny because I thought it was

[Aaron]: good. Like I thought it was a good
video and I thought, ah, some people, some

[Aaron]: people will be interested. I think
the title did a lot of work for me there

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: because I think I got people that were
mad that I said that PHP doesn't suck anymore.

[Aaron]: And I think I got people that were
mad that suggested that I suggested that PHP

[Aaron]: ever sucked.

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: And so like I got I got the people
who were

[Ian Landsman]: Both

[Aaron]: on

[Ian Landsman]: sides.

[Aaron]: my team and the people that were haters.
I got them all to come and comment and everything.

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: Yup.

[Aaron]: I think I got lucky with that with
that title there. But yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: always

[Aaron]: hundred

[Ian Landsman]: a big key.

[Aaron]: thousand views.

[Ian Landsman]: So congratulations. Amazing.

[Aaron]: Isn't

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: mean,

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: 5.7

[Aaron]: craziest thing you've ever

[Ian Landsman]: thousand

[Aaron]: heard?

[Ian Landsman]: upvotes. Like that's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: an incredible amount of upvotes.
Like

[Aaron]: It's crazy!

[Ian Landsman]: I feel like that percentage
is unusual for like five, six percent of the

[Ian Landsman]: viewers to vote at all. Um,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: seems

[Aaron]: let me

[Ian Landsman]: unusually

[Aaron]: see. I think

[Ian Landsman]: high to me even.

[Aaron]: I can see

[Ian Landsman]: which is

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: percent. It's 98% thumbs up. So 5,700
likes and 98%

[Ian Landsman]: Wow.

[Aaron]: up votes versus down.

[Ian Landsman]: That's amazing.

[Aaron]: Crazy!

[Ian Landsman]: That's incredible. Yeah, and
I thought the video was so good because it

[Ian Landsman]: was just like, yeah, just jumped
into every

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: single thing that's changed,
all the big stuff. And it's like, boom, here's

[Ian Landsman]: 15 seconds on this, here's 15
seconds on this,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and just kept the pace going
really nice.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I'm really trying to find, I'm
trying to find like the ideal YouTube format

[Aaron]: because it is

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: very different than like a lot of the
work I've done historically has been long form

[Aaron]: educational, right? So I'll do

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: a Laracast course or teach accounting
or teach databases and it's like, I know that

[Aaron]: I have you for a couple hours and I'm
going to tell you everything you need to know.

[Aaron]: YouTube,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: you're fighting people clicking away
or closing.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: And so... I'm trying to find that format,
but this one worked.

[Ian Landsman]: This also seems like one of
these great ones that you could like break

[Ian Landsman]: this up and throw it on Instagram
and all the other like,

[Aaron]: Oh, that's

[Ian Landsman]: or on

[Aaron]: a great

[Ian Landsman]: YouTube

[Aaron]: idea.

[Ian Landsman]: shorts and whatever, right?

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Like here's like 15 seconds,
like just create some new little intro. That's

[Ian Landsman]: like a two second intro. And
it's like, boom, here's, uh, another

[Aaron]: Oh shoot,

[Ian Landsman]: thing about

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: why

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: PHP

[Aaron]: great idea.

[Ian Landsman]: doesn't suck. We use all this.
Um, Holy cow. It has 1100 comments.

[Aaron]: Oh dude,

[Ian Landsman]: That's insane.

[Aaron]: so many comments.

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: And

[Ian Landsman]: know. What do you

[Aaron]: fully half of them are like, oh, PHP
still sucks.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, that's you

[Aaron]: I'm

[Ian Landsman]: too,

[Aaron]: like, come

[Ian Landsman]: man.

[Aaron]: on.

[Ian Landsman]: Like.

[Aaron]: I don't care if you think that, but
be more, like I'm not offended as a PHP developer,

[Aaron]: I'm offended as a terminally online
commenter. Like make a better comment. This

[Aaron]: comment

[Ian Landsman]: Your comment

[Aaron]: is stupid.

[Ian Landsman]: sucks.

[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: I think that is kind of a known
issue with the YouTube comments, unfortunately.

[Ian Landsman]: I think the ratio of quality
comments to

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: crap is not ideal.

[Aaron]: I do let my spice come through a little
bit more in YouTube comments, like

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: on,

[Ian Landsman]: I think it's fair.

[Aaron]: you know, on Twitter, especially on
Twitter main and mostly in Twitter replies

[Aaron]: I'm like trying to be very gracious
and kind to people on YouTube when they bring

[Aaron]: in the barbs. I just, I barb them right
back

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: and it's kind of fun. It's kind of
fun to be spicy over there.

[Ian Landsman]: Sort of like a private area
down there, you know, it's like a it's

[Aaron]: Oh

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: oh, it's you're down

[Aaron]: nobody's

[Ian Landsman]: in the trenches

[Aaron]: going down

[Ian Landsman]: in there

[Aaron]: there.

[Ian Landsman]: right I also love that in this
video about PHP and technology and code like

[Ian Landsman]: the number one I guess you pinned
it but it's

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: pinned

[Ian Landsman]: funny

[Aaron]: it,

[Ian Landsman]: that's

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: pinned that the loop of comment
about the movie loopers kind

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: of the top here It's so funny

[Aaron]: I did a little review of what was happening
in 2012 and the movie Looper was in theaters

[Aaron]: and I was like, this is a good movie.
And a lot of people,

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehe

[Aaron]: a lot of people commented and said
they can't trust me because I thought Looper

[Aaron]: was good. So.

[Ian Landsman]: I am definitely on the side
of like PHP was never bad. Like it's kind of

[Ian Landsman]: funny because

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: as you were going through there,
I'm like all this stuff is really cool. And

[Ian Landsman]: for people who are, you know,
need these things, whatever's great. But I

[Ian Landsman]: was like the old way, like I'm
like 95%. I was like the old way, that was

[Ian Landsman]: fine. Like I kind of liked the
way it was before too. Like that worked for

[Ian Landsman]: me. Right, right.

[Aaron]: That's my secret is I never thought
it sucked either and I still don't use a lot

[Aaron]: of the features that I talked about,
like

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: annotations or attributes and all this
strict typing and stuff. It's like, I don't

[Aaron]: really care about that and I love the
PHP of yesteryear. And this is another thing,

[Aaron]: this video is not for my traditional
audience on Twitter. My audience

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: on Twitter is Laravel developers. This
is basically... an outreach video and

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I feel like the audience on YouTube
is so much bigger and the

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: algorithm does so much work on your
behalf that it doesn't really matter who is

[Aaron]: directly following you. You're making
a video for kind of the masses and so it is

[Aaron]: a little different for me because I'm
thinking like, you know, I'm talking to all

[Aaron]: of our friends. and like, why would
I make a video like this for all of our friends?

[Aaron]: But

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: it's YouTube, it's not for our friends.
So yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it's been interesting.

[Ian Landsman]: I had a discussion with somebody
kind of recently about this idea, too. And

[Ian Landsman]: I think that is like one of
the keys of YouTube. Like the point of being

[Ian Landsman]: on there in some ways is to
reach this new group of people who are not

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: on traditional Laravel tech,
your PHP channels of Twitter. You know, it's

[Ian Landsman]: like, yeah, just everything.
that silo is only a certain size and obviously

[Ian Landsman]: Twitter

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: just has its own issues on top
of all that. So it's like the YouTube is so

[Ian Landsman]: much bigger than Twitter, way,

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: way

[Aaron]: much

[Ian Landsman]: bigger.

[Aaron]: bigger.

[Ian Landsman]: And

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: the algorithm is I think pretty
good at surfacing stuff. I mean, sometimes

[Ian Landsman]: we're bad, but like overall,
like I think it actually does a pretty good

[Ian Landsman]: job of like

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: surfacing things people are
interested in. And so yeah, this gives you

[Ian Landsman]: that opportunity to reach out
to other types of developers or unbelievably

[Ian Landsman]: the PHP developers who are not,
you know, on Twitter following Taylor and Laravel.

[Aaron]: I know,

[Ian Landsman]: Like

[Aaron]: can

[Ian Landsman]: if

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: you could

[Aaron]: imagine?

[Ian Landsman]: believe there are people out
there like that.

[Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: Um,

[Aaron]: I know,

[Ian Landsman]: it is remarkable,

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: but.

[Aaron]: that is crazy to me, that there's a
whole set of the community, the PHP community

[Aaron]: that like is not on Twitter at all
talking

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: about Folio and Volt all day long.
They're like, I have

[Ian Landsman]: I know.

[Aaron]: no idea what you're talking about,
man. Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: And

[Aaron]: it's

[Ian Landsman]: we see,

[Aaron]: crazy.

[Ian Landsman]: I see this a lot in, I mean,
this isn't even a great example, but on Lara

[Ian Landsman]: jobs, we see it a lot. It's
like, oh, there's

[Aaron]: Mm.

[Ian Landsman]: companies posting that are not
like in the Laravel circle. And that's very

[Ian Landsman]: Laravel, obviously specific.
It's Lara jobs. But that's like one of the

[Ian Landsman]: areas I'm trying to do more
of even with Lara jobs, like reach out to other

[Ian Landsman]: segments of the PHP

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: world since it's really like
a PHP job board essentially. And because it's

[Ian Landsman]: just this huge world of PHP.
It's like when I look at other job boards,

[Ian Landsman]: even the more general ones,
like a dice.com or whatever, and there's like

[Ian Landsman]: all these companies posting,
you know, Laravel jobs even who

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: are like, do nothing in the
Laravel world, like Disney or whatever, like

[Ian Landsman]: Disney hasn't sponsored LaraCon
or, um, they've never posted a job on Lara

[Ian Landsman]: jobs, but they have like

[Aaron]: Right.

[Ian Landsman]: 10 jobs on dice.com for Laravel
developers.

[Aaron]: Yep. Hmm,

[Ian Landsman]: It was this like whole

[Aaron]: interesting.

[Ian Landsman]: world of PHP and Laravel that's
people just going to work every day and. doing

[Ian Landsman]: their job and leaving and they're
not, you know, that closely following what's

[Ian Landsman]: going on necessarily, um, in
the kind of more close knit community that

[Aaron]: just

[Ian Landsman]: we tend

[Aaron]: doing

[Ian Landsman]: to operate

[Aaron]: their job

[Ian Landsman]: in.

[Aaron]: and going

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: home. They're not

[Ian Landsman]: Can

[Aaron]: wired

[Ian Landsman]: you believe

[Aaron]: in.

[Ian Landsman]: it?

[Aaron]: I,

[Ian Landsman]: That's

[Aaron]: it sounds,

[Ian Landsman]: crazy. They're not checking
Twitter 24 hours a day for the latest

[Aaron]: they must be

[Ian Landsman]: updates.

[Aaron]: happy. It couldn't

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: be me, no way.

[Ian Landsman]: No way. I don't want any part
of that.

[Aaron]: No way. The video also got, it got
reacted to. Did you see

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: this?

[Ian Landsman]: No, I don't think I saw this.

[Aaron]: There's a popular YouTuber slash Twitch
streamer called

[Ian Landsman]: Oh,

[Aaron]: The

[Ian Landsman]: wow.

[Aaron]: PrimaGen. And he did a react video
where he watches my video on stream and reacts

[Aaron]: to

[Ian Landsman]: Ha

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: ha ha.

[Aaron]: And I'm like, I'm, I'm so many levels
deep into YouTube culture

[Ian Landsman]: That is

[Aaron]: now

[Ian Landsman]: awesome,

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: that

[Aaron]: he's

[Ian Landsman]: is

[Aaron]: doing that.

[Ian Landsman]: great,

[Aaron]: Um,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: and it, so my video got a hundred thousand
views. His video got a hundred thousand views.

[Ian Landsman]: Wow. So your

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: video has kind of been seen
200,000 times

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: right there.

[Aaron]: that's what I'm saying. So it was really,
really good. So Primogen has a very strong

[Aaron]: personality and a very strong

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: brand. um, and that turns a lot of
people off, but he is an absolute, like he's

[Aaron]: a wonderful, wonderful person.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And he, uh, we actually DMs before
he did the react video. Cause I feel like some

[Aaron]: people seeing that would be like, I
can't believe this guy just watched your video

[Aaron]: and put himself in the corner and,
you know, claim that

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: as his own content. Like one, that's
not what he did. Like he's one of the smartest

[Aaron]: people that I've seen on YouTube. And
two,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: he asked me beforehand. And honestly,
like he was doing me a favor because

[Ian Landsman]: Right,

[Aaron]: he's got like

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: a hundred and fifty thousand subscribers
on YouTube

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: And then he's got a hundred thousand
followers on Twitter And he's tweeting about

[Aaron]: my video and it just it was like a
whole day of just feeling like what is happening?

[Aaron]: Cuz you know I record these videos
and then it takes me forever to edit and then

[Aaron]: I finally upload it and I've already
Lost all the like oh, this is a great video

[Aaron]: It's like I gotta get this freaking
thing off my plate

[Ian Landsman]: All right. I'm sick

[Aaron]: and then

[Ian Landsman]: of this

[Aaron]: it

[Ian Landsman]: thing.

[Aaron]: does well and it's like This

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: is

[Ian Landsman]: that's

[Aaron]: so cool!

[Ian Landsman]: awesome. It's so

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: great

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: when that

[Aaron]: was

[Ian Landsman]: happens.

[Aaron]: a fun week, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's a, and yeah, like
what he's doing there, he's like adding a lot

[Ian Landsman]: of value, so he's not just like
reposting your video he's,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you know, you know, adding to
it for his audience and what they want to see

[Ian Landsman]: and, um, adding kind of value
there, so, and

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, obviously

[Aaron]: he's really

[Ian Landsman]: exposing

[Aaron]: good. Like

[Ian Landsman]: you.

[Aaron]: one of the things he's really good
at is like, he knows so many languages. He's

[Aaron]: an engineer at Netflix, and so he's
worked

[Ian Landsman]: Okay.

[Aaron]: in a bunch of different places.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: He knows so many languages that he
can look at all these things that I'm running

[Aaron]: through. And he's like, oh, this is
kind of how C Sharp does it. Oh, well in JavaScript,

[Aaron]: it's done this way, and I hate that,
and I really like that PHP does this. And he

[Aaron]: can compare it across

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: a whole bunch of languages where I...
I just can't do that.

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Like I've never worked in C sharp.
I don't know what C sharp is.

[Ian Landsman]: So is he not, he hasn't used
PHP much then it sounds like? So he's

[Aaron]: No, not since the era that

[Ian Landsman]: the old

[Aaron]: I talked

[Ian Landsman]: days,

[Aaron]: about.

[Ian Landsman]: okay.

[Aaron]: Yeah, and so

[Ian Landsman]: Oh, so

[Aaron]: it

[Ian Landsman]: he's

[Aaron]: was

[Ian Landsman]: perfect

[Aaron]: really cool

[Ian Landsman]: for

[Aaron]: because

[Ian Landsman]: it, yeah.

[Aaron]: he started the video and he was like,
I feel like he's talking exactly about me.

[Aaron]: I came up

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: on PHP

[Ian Landsman]: Ahem.

[Aaron]: and then I've never used it. And so
there were some things that he genuinely liked.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: So I'm really happy about how that
went.

[Ian Landsman]: So what's the next video in
this series?

[Aaron]: Yeah, so I've got a few that I'm thinking
of.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: Um, and I think there are, you know,
I get a lot of the ideas for like, what's next

[Aaron]: from the comments on, on these videos.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: And, you know, I have a bunch of my
own ideas, but it is nice to see what are people

[Aaron]: continually, continually surfacing.
Um, and so I think a few that I have in mind

[Aaron]: is, um, I want to do for, for the super
type heavy people, I want to do generics in

[Aaron]: PHP. One,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: I got to learn how to even do that.
But I

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: do want to show that like, we have
further typing than is available in the language

[Aaron]: itself.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: Basically, and you know, you always
have to think of like, what's the angle? And

[Aaron]: I think the angle here is like, TypeScript
for PHP almost, because it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: we're using PHP, but we're putting
this layer on top and...

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: in the same way that you're using JavaScript
and you're putting a layer on top. So I got

[Aaron]: to figure out like the catchy angle
there.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And then I want to do

[Ian Landsman]: Ahem.

[Aaron]: I want to do a Laravel is faster than
next JS video.

[Ian Landsman]: Ooh, that'll be a good one.

[Aaron]: I know spicy

[Ian Landsman]: That's

[Aaron]: right.

[Ian Landsman]: a good one. Yeah, that's

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: a

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: spicy

[Aaron]: got to figure

[Ian Landsman]: one.

[Aaron]: out I'm having Steve just Steve King
on Twitter.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm

[Aaron]: Steve McDougall I think is his name
but his handles just Steve King. He's going

[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker. container.
I don't know anything about Docker. He's going

[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker container
that has the Next.js app and a Laravel app

[Aaron]: with Octane. And I'm going

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: to load test and see if the Laravel
one is faster. I super hope that it is because

[Aaron]: that would be

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.

[Aaron]: an amazing video that would make a
lot of Next fans really mad and a lot of Laravel

[Aaron]: people really happy. And then the last
one I have on actually two more. I've got Livewire

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: SPA mode. So like I want to show that
you can create a single page app with just

[Aaron]: PHP, obviously it's Livewire JavaScript,
but you know, the angle is SBA with PHP and

[Aaron]: then I'm having Boris Lepkin help me
set up a repo where I can do end to end strict

[Aaron]: typing with Laravel inertia and view.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And I can have all of that. like TypeScript
all the way through. Cause people are

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: always like, well, I'd never switched
to PHP because I love type end to end type

[Aaron]: safety. And

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: like one, that's a red herring. That's
dumb. That's a bad reason to stay with JavaScript

[Aaron]: on the back end. And two, you can have
that. You can have that in Laravel. So those

[Aaron]: are my videos. I got to think of catchy
angles and spicy titles and stuff.

[Ian Landsman]: I like it. I really liked the
Livewire one too. I feel like Livewire is part

[Ian Landsman]: of it is it's like a pretty
complicated thing to explain, you know, cause

[Ian Landsman]: it's like this, it's just not
like anything else. You know, it's like, it's

[Ian Landsman]: not

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: like React. It's not like Vue,
like it does what they do in the end, but it's

[Ian Landsman]: nothing like them and how you
use it. So like, I do feel like it's just any

[Ian Landsman]: kind of exposure or ways to
like, get people

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: to understand how valuable it
is and how faster it can make you. once you

[Ian Landsman]: really kind of understand what
it's trying to do is, uh, is would be really

[Ian Landsman]: great. So again, reach that
other, that other audience that's not in the

[Ian Landsman]: super core. That's like, oh
yeah, we know already about livewire.larribelle.com

[Aaron]: Exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: and it's up there in version

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: three and blah, blah. Like,
and I think too, it's kind of become, I feel

[Ian Landsman]: like version three is like,
it's ready for prime time now. So I'd be great

[Ian Landsman]: to see more people making videos
and all that stuff about it too, just because

[Ian Landsman]: it's kind of matured to this
level where it's really ready to take on. You

[Aaron]: Yep,

[Ian Landsman]: know, serious,

[Aaron]: I agree.

[Ian Landsman]: serious work, quote unquote.

[Aaron]: Yeah, and I think with the version
three release, they did a lot of stuff that

[Aaron]: makes it more usable. Like this whole
SPA mode thing is really cool. And Jason

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Beggs did a tutorial slash demo for
Laravel News showing like a podcast player.

[Aaron]: And I think the whole shtick is like,
it keeps playing even when you switch pages,

[Aaron]: which

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: is like the hallmark of SPA thing,
SPA demo. And so I may just use that. Um, as

[Aaron]: my,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: as my example, because yeah, I feel
like even, even in LiveWire land, like you've

[Aaron]: got Hotwire, you've got Stimulus, you've
got Phoenix live view, you've got HTMX, all

[Aaron]: of those are kind of like HTML over
the wire domdiffing. Um,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: but I think LiveWire is even, I would
say better, but definitely different than all

[Aaron]: of those in that one, PHP dies. Like
you have to build the whole universe on every

[Aaron]: request.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And so like with Ruby, you've got this
server that's continually running, and are

[Aaron]: you keeping state around back there?
I don't super know, but with LiveWire, it's

[Aaron]: like, no, we gotta send everything
back and forth all the time. And one of the

[Aaron]: complaints about LiveWire on the video
that I did was like, oh, so how many connections

[Aaron]: do you have to keep open all the time
to send the data back and forth? And you're

[Aaron]: like, none.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: You don't leave stuff open with PHP.
Everything dies, and you recreate the universe

[Aaron]: every time.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: So I do think there's a fundamental
disparity between what people think is happening

[Aaron]: and what is actually happening.

[Ian Landsman]: Right. And just like that, that's
even like, um, it's PHP's way of doing it has

[Ian Landsman]: become more and more viable
over time, right? It's like, oh, that was kind

[Ian Landsman]: of a stupid way to do it. Maybe
you can make the case way back in the day because

[Ian Landsman]: like the computers weren't that
fast and the network wasn't that fast. And

[Ian Landsman]: like you're sending stuff back
and forth and you're setting up the whole world

[Ian Landsman]: every time and everything. But
now it's like everything's so fast. It's like,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, and it's great. I could
just reset it up every time. And that does

[Ian Landsman]: solve a lot of, you know, it
creates other problems, but it does solve a

[Ian Landsman]: nice set of problems too. And.
Yeah, yeah, how LiveWire does all that. I mean,

[Ian Landsman]: the stuff LiveWire does to make
this all work is sort of nuts. But, uh, it's

[Ian Landsman]: so nice to rebuild everything.
So now it's like really, you know, cause when

[Ian Landsman]: you first build something the
first time, you don't really understand what

[Ian Landsman]: it's even going to be. And to
rebuild it with that understanding, I think

[Ian Landsman]: has made a ton of really huge
improvements and how it all works.

[Aaron]: Yeah, and on that PHP lifecycle model,
we got really lucky that PHP is basically tailor-made

[Aaron]: for serverless environments. Because
it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: it runs one thing stateless, and then
it dies.

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: And it's

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: like,

[Ian Landsman]: It's perfect for

[Aaron]: oh,

[Ian Landsman]: serverless. Yup.

[Aaron]: you're describing PHP. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: It was a big change. I started
in, um, cold fusion. And ColdFusion had a server

[Ian Landsman]: which you could store state
in there and other stuff.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: You could do all kinds of things.
And then I started doing some PHP and I was

[Ian Landsman]: like, Oh, like this doesn't
do anything at all for me.

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And then also it was like pre
frameworks. Essentially there was a couple

[Ian Landsman]: of like very rudimentary frameworks.
And so it was like, there's nothing at all

[Ian Landsman]: here, but okay, we'll do this.
And, uh, yeah, but now it's obviously with

[Ian Landsman]: Laravel and just the whole state
of everything that's going on with servers.

[Ian Landsman]: It's, uh, it's so much nicer.
And. Um, and yes, the hosting situation and

[Ian Landsman]: server lists

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and all the options we have
now changes all that a lot. Um, but yeah, and

[Ian Landsman]: even live wire, like what he's
done in version three, where it's like bundling

[Ian Landsman]: requests and things like that.
So like even

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: wire concerns that, you know,
you weren't holding them open, but it was having

[Ian Landsman]: to call back and forth a lot.
If you had a bunch of components and things

[Ian Landsman]: like now it's just all bundled
together, so that's all way more efficient

[Ian Landsman]: and yeah, it's, it's really
pretty advanced now.

[Aaron]: Yeah. Good job, Caleb. Way to go.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, love Caleb. He's the man.

[Aaron]: Well, we've been mostly technical.
Do you wanna go back to non-technical for a

[Aaron]: second?

[Ian Landsman]: Sure, sure.

[Aaron]: We give

[Ian Landsman]: What

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: do

[Aaron]: technical

[Ian Landsman]: you got for me?

[Aaron]: people a break. Are you hiring someone
to create family photo books?

[Ian Landsman]: Family photo books. Yes. So
this is

[Aaron]: Okay

[Ian Landsman]: my

[Aaron]: so I saw this on Twitter and I thought

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Ian is a galaxy brain. Like

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I knew you were like a planet brain
but this is galaxy brain.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. So this is the thing I,
I used to be super into photography and I've

[Ian Landsman]: gotten, I've dialed it back
a little bit here, especially as the kids have

[Ian Landsman]: gotten older and they're just
like, get that camera out of my face, you know,

[Ian Landsman]: but whatever. When they're little,
like, it's awesome. Like, so I'd be, I'd always

[Ian Landsman]: have the fancy camera. I'm taking
pictures of the kids. And then I'm taking pictures

[Ian Landsman]: of just other sorts of things,
nature and whatnot. And then, um, So I'd always

[Ian Landsman]: make these photo books. I'd
have all these photos, I'd spend the time,

[Ian Landsman]: I'd get them all edited, all
nice, and make books, and blah, blah. But then

[Ian Landsman]: just recently, kids are bigger,
like we talked about at the beginning, it's

[Ian Landsman]: just like they have so much
stuff going on, they're running around all

[Ian Landsman]: the time, work's busy, doing
podcasts, like all this

[Aaron]: Hehehehe

[Ian Landsman]: stuff. There's just not time
to make the photo books. And it's kind of funny,

[Ian Landsman]: so we did this, the vacation
I'm on right now with the people I'm on right

[Ian Landsman]: now, we did this a year ago
to a different place. And I was like, all right,

[Ian Landsman]: I'll make the photo book.

[Aaron]: Hehehe

[Ian Landsman]: And I did not, I still have
not done the photo book. The photo book is

[Ian Landsman]: not done from a year ago.

[Aaron]: You

[Ian Landsman]: We

[Aaron]: never,

[Ian Landsman]: are now

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: on the

[Aaron]: never

[Ian Landsman]: second

[Aaron]: volunteer.

[Ian Landsman]: vacation.

[Aaron]: You never volunteer for that kind of
stuff.

[Ian Landsman]: So now we're on the second vacation.
I still haven't done the photo book from the

[Ian Landsman]: first vacation. And so I have,
you know, I have other trips and things that

[Ian Landsman]: I would want to do little books
for. Um, I just have this huge backlog of photo

[Ian Landsman]: books. So yeah, it just struck
me one day, like a week or two back there.

[Ian Landsman]: And I was like, I can outsource
the creation of these photo books. Like I'm

[Ian Landsman]: not

[Aaron]: Yes!

[Ian Landsman]: doing anything. Especially because
these are not like at this point more like

[Ian Landsman]: artistic photos where I felt
like Back in the day. I was more like creating

[Ian Landsman]: the art like I

[Aaron]: Sure.

[Ian Landsman]: might have a black and white
photo of a certain scene And like I want it

[Ian Landsman]: to be a certain way. This is
like me on my iphone snapping pictures

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: like just pick the smileiest
one and Edit it up to fit in the right box

[Ian Landsman]: in the page and throw that stuff
together and make me a photo book so it seems

[Ian Landsman]: like pretty much anybody could
handle this like um without and it'll be fine,

[Ian Landsman]: right? It'll be fine. It'll
be a nice little photo book to have on the

[Ian Landsman]: shelf. And the kids always love
the photo books. Like we have this big pile

[Ian Landsman]: of photo books from all of our
trips and they go through them and whatever.

[Ian Landsman]: So that's my plan. I don't know.
I did

[Aaron]: Has

[Ian Landsman]: a little

[Aaron]: it worked?

[Ian Landsman]: bit of research,

[Aaron]: So you said it

[Ian Landsman]: though

[Aaron]: sounds

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: like

[Ian Landsman]: haven't done

[Aaron]: anybody

[Ian Landsman]: it.

[Aaron]: can do it. Has anybody been able to
do it?

[Ian Landsman]: Nobody's done it yet. So I've

[Aaron]: Where

[Ian Landsman]: looked

[Aaron]: are

[Ian Landsman]: through,

[Aaron]: you looking?

[Ian Landsman]: I don't know. So since that
tweet where I said that, I have not really

[Ian Landsman]: had time to then delve too much
farther. I went into Upwork. There are people

[Ian Landsman]: who sort of claim to do it,
but then it's a little bit not clear what they

[Ian Landsman]: actually are providing. There's
some who are doing it like only for weddings,

[Ian Landsman]: which is not

[Aaron]: Mmm,

[Ian Landsman]: really the right thing because
they're gonna wanna

[Aaron]: too expensive,

[Ian Landsman]: charge a ton

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: of money and do like a fancy
book, which is not what this is. So I'm. If

[Ian Landsman]: anybody out there knows of,
um, either a service that does this or even

[Ian Landsman]: just like photo editing services
or things like that, cause I obviously there's

[Ian Landsman]: like upwork, but I didn't love
the

[Aaron]: Or like

[Ian Landsman]: options

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: there.

[Aaron]: stay at home parent who knows how to
use

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: mean,

[Aaron]: computer.

[Ian Landsman]: that would be

[Aaron]: That's

[Ian Landsman]: fine

[Aaron]: basically

[Ian Landsman]: too.

[Aaron]: what

[Ian Landsman]: Like

[Aaron]: you need.

[Ian Landsman]: if you're out there and just
wanna do this for me, like I'm also totally

[Ian Landsman]: fine with that. Like we can.

[Aaron]: Yeah, is your husband or wife a functioning
adult and can use a computer?

[Ian Landsman]: and wants to

[Aaron]: Contact

[Ian Landsman]: do this. Yeah.

[Aaron]: Ian.

[Ian Landsman]: I mean, that's totally, I'm
totally on board with that. Maybe this is the

[Ian Landsman]: SaaS we should be building.
Maybe that's what'll come out of this podcast.

[Ian Landsman]: We'll build the

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: photo book creation service
SaaS app. But, right.

[Aaron]: yeah. Yeah, we could make tens of dollars
that way,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I think. Ha ha ha.

[Ian Landsman]: But it's like, if there was
just like a site and I don't want to build

[Ian Landsman]: this, but if it was just like
a service that does this, that's like a hundred

[Ian Landsman]: bucks a book, like they

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: would just already have like
three books for me, like just done. even 150

[Ian Landsman]: bucks

[Aaron]: I agree.

[Ian Landsman]: a book, like whatever. Like

[Aaron]: I fully agree.

[Ian Landsman]: I would just pay the money.
I don't wanna think about it. I wanna upload

[Ian Landsman]: my thousand pictures from my
trip to Europe and my 200 pictures from the

[Ian Landsman]: last vacation we all had. And
I just wanna pay somebody 100, 200 bucks even,

[Ian Landsman]: and just be like, oh, and a
book shows up on my doorstep and it's done,

[Ian Landsman]: it's great. So yeah, if anybody
knows about that service already existing or

[Ian Landsman]: wants to do it, let me know.
And then we'll see how that goes. But. Otherwise

[Ian Landsman]: I do plan after vacation on
getting, uh, on making that happen. And now

[Ian Landsman]: since it's in the podcast, it's
going to have to happen. So at least we will

[Ian Landsman]: try it. We will have results.
We could

[Aaron]: Yeah, if

[Ian Landsman]: talk

[Aaron]: you're

[Ian Landsman]: about

[Aaron]: listening

[Ian Landsman]: the results.

[Aaron]: to this, if you're listening to this
and it's August of 2024, make sure you send

[Aaron]: us an email to see if Ian ever got
his vacation book made. So check in with us

[Aaron]: in one year to make sure Ian

[Ian Landsman]: Oh,

[Aaron]: got

[Ian Landsman]: yeah,

[Aaron]: his book made.

[Ian Landsman]: August 2025, we'll be doing
this podcast. I'll be like, up. I'm on vacation

[Ian Landsman]: with everybody again. Now I'm
two vacation books behind.

[Aaron]: Yeah. So I hired somebody a while back
to do 3D rendering of, I was going to add a

[Aaron]: back deck to connect the shed quarters,
my old studio to my house. And there's

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: this giant gap in the middle. And I
hired somebody on, I think it was Upwork? No,

[Aaron]: I think it was Fiverr actually.

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: I took a bunch of pictures, did a few
dimensions, and hired an outdoor deck designer

[Aaron]: in Turkey to do 3D renderings of what
a deck could

[Ian Landsman]: Holy cow.

[Aaron]: look like. Yeah, and it was like $65.
And

[Ian Landsman]: Wow.

[Aaron]: so then, was it perfect? No, but I
could then go to a local contractor and instead

[Aaron]: of like... trying to explain something
to someone who's barely listening to me,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I could show him a picture and be like,
I basically want

[Ian Landsman]: Build

[Aaron]: this.

[Ian Landsman]: this.

[Aaron]: Yeah. And he's like, okay, I could
build that. And I thought that is a total like,

[Aaron]: that's a totally good use of money
to spend $65 to be able to communicate clearly

[Aaron]: what I want. And I went back and forth

[Ian Landsman]: That

[Aaron]: with

[Ian Landsman]: was

[Aaron]: the guy

[Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: on a few revisions, because on the
first one, he did some weird stuff with pergolas.

[Aaron]: And I was like, I don't want that,
like remove

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: that change this. And then I had the
thing to show the guy. And so finding these

[Aaron]: things that you can outsource that
you don't really think you can

[Ian Landsman]: I just love

[Aaron]: outsource,

[Ian Landsman]: outsourcing.

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I gotta get better about
that. I'm really pretty bad about outsourcing

[Ian Landsman]: and stuff like that. And it's
like, I should just outsource this. Why am

[Ian Landsman]: I not outsourcing more stuff?
It's like, we actually found this service here

[Ian Landsman]: kind of along those lines where
it's like, they will come and set up. So you

[Ian Landsman]: can't leave like a tent or anything
on the beach overnight.

[Aaron]: Oh, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And there's like 13 of us and
whatever, and the kids and whatever, son and

[Ian Landsman]: all that stuff. So we kinda
want a tent. So they just come every day and

[Ian Landsman]: they set

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: up the tent. and they bring
chairs and they put it out there. And then

[Ian Landsman]: every night they come and they
take down a tent and they take away the chairs

[Ian Landsman]: and they just do it every night.
And it's fabulous. And that also led me to

[Ian Landsman]: the discovery of another app
which I'm just gonna tell everybody about as

[Ian Landsman]: public service called Splitwise.
Have you ever used Splitwise?

[Aaron]: live, live and die by Splitwise.

[Ian Landsman]: You love the Splitwise, I didn't
even

[Aaron]: Love,

[Ian Landsman]: know about Splitwise.

[Aaron]: love

[Ian Landsman]: It's unbelievable.

[Aaron]: Splitwise.

[Ian Landsman]: Everything

[Aaron]: I've

[Ian Landsman]: you buy

[Aaron]: been

[Ian Landsman]: is.

[Aaron]: using Splitwise since 2009. It's amazing,

[Ian Landsman]: Wow, is

[Aaron]: yes.

[Ian Landsman]: it around that long? I didn't

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: even

[Aaron]: is,

[Ian Landsman]: know that.

[Aaron]: yes.

[Ian Landsman]: Wow. So maybe everybody knows
about this already, but Splitwise lets you

[Ian Landsman]: just split bills with other
people. And like, so you can just, every time

[Ian Landsman]: you buy something, you throw
it in Splitwise and it'll handle like, like

[Ian Landsman]: in our case, we're pretty much
dividing everything by thirds, just divides

[Ian Landsman]: it by thirds. And then at the
end it tracks who owes who what and you can

[Ian Landsman]: settle up and that's it. And...
It's unbelievable. This is like one of the

[Ian Landsman]: first

[Aaron]: Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: mobile apps that's blown my
mind in a while.

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: Like, it's like, oh, this is
fabulous.

[Aaron]: we gotta talk splitwise. So, splitwise
is truly one of the OG apps that does the thing

[Aaron]: it's supposed to do and doesn't muck
it up. And so what I love about splitwise,

[Aaron]: so we do these yearly trips, all of
our guy friends from college, and what I love

[Aaron]: about splitwise is, As long as you
accurately represent the truth in Splitwise,

[Aaron]: everything comes out just fine. So
what I mean is, you can say like, okay, I,

[Aaron]: Aaron, I'm going to the grocery store
for, you know, these 10 guys for the weekend

[Aaron]: and I'm going to spend, you know, $1,000
to buy all the groceries for this weekend,

[Aaron]: right? I put $1,000 into Splitwise
and I say split evenly. And it just like, it

[Aaron]: splits it evenly. Okay. Whatever, that
seems normal, right? But then let's say I get

[Aaron]: there early and I go to dinner with
four other guys and we go out for pizza, right?

[Aaron]: And one guy pays for all the pizza.
And he says, okay, I, let's say Andrew, paid

[Aaron]: for all the pizza, but only these five
people were there. So I'm gonna split it between

[Aaron]: these five people. And then let's say
there are three people on the trip that don't

[Aaron]: drink, so we split the alcohol between
seven people. And then let's say I buy Ian

[Aaron]: lunch, so it's just like a one-on-one
transaction. As long as you put all of that

[Aaron]: into Splitwise and you say there's
a tab to say simplify debt. So like if I owe

[Aaron]: Ian $5 and Ian owes Andrew $5, I'm
just gonna pay Andrew and Splitwise will handle

[Aaron]: that for you. At the end, it just comes
out to be like, you put everything in there

[Aaron]: and it just says, Aaron, you owe Andrew
$42. And you're like, all right, sounds like.

[Aaron]: Sounds fine to me, and it takes into
account everything you paid for, everything

[Aaron]: you participated in, and like it doesn't
add you to things that you weren't a part of,

[Aaron]: and at the end you pay one single person
and then you move on about your day. It's the

[Aaron]: best thing in

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: the world.

[Ian Landsman]: totally mind blowing, mind

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: blowing. It's so good. Yes,
you said it perfectly. Like it doesn't muck

[Ian Landsman]: it up. It's like, it does this.
It's not trying to sell me a bunch of other

[Ian Landsman]: stuff while I'm in there adding,
you know, these entries. It's just like, nope,

[Ian Landsman]: add your entries at the top.
It's got like this running total. It's like,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: you've loaned out a thousand
dollars so far.

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: And it's like, yes, I'm making
money on this vacation.

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: People are gonna pay me a thousand
dollars at the end of this vacation. It's so

[Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: Yep,

[Ian Landsman]: Everything

[Aaron]: yeah, and

[Ian Landsman]: costs

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: a third less.

[Aaron]: That's great because then you're at
the next dinner and you can be like well it

[Aaron]: looks like It looks like I'm a thousand
dollars behind so somebody else should pay

[Aaron]: for dinner So then at the end of the
trip, you know, you're as close to even as

[Aaron]: possible And so your person-to-person

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: transactions are a lot smaller. Yeah,
it's oh man

[Ian Landsman]: It

[Aaron]: What

[Ian Landsman]: hooks

[Aaron]: a what

[Ian Landsman]: into

[Aaron]: an

[Ian Landsman]: Venmo.

[Aaron]: unexpected surprise to

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: talk about

[Ian Landsman]: like,

[Aaron]: split wise

[Ian Landsman]: oh, it's so good. It just, just
to have a uni-tasker app like that, that just

[Ian Landsman]: is executed so perfectly. That's
something I never built either. I always have

[Ian Landsman]: these like big complicated things.

[Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: Just a nice uni-tasker app.
It just does, it just down in the little nitty

[Ian Landsman]: gritty details of that single
task so deeply. Oh, just excellent. Love

[Aaron]: I'm pulling

[Ian Landsman]: it.

[Aaron]: up my Splitwise right now so I can
see

[Ian Landsman]: Oh,

[Aaron]: all

[Ian Landsman]: there

[Aaron]: the groups

[Ian Landsman]: you go. Yup.

[Aaron]: that I have.

[Ian Landsman]: Oh wow, you have

[Aaron]: I've

[Ian Landsman]: a bunch

[Aaron]: got,

[Ian Landsman]: of different groups. That's
interesting.

[Aaron]: oh yeah, I've got, I don't know if
the camera

[Ian Landsman]: Oh wow,

[Aaron]: will pick it up.

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, OG

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: status

[Aaron]: we've got

[Ian Landsman]: here.

[Aaron]: SF15, 16, 17, those are all the guide
trips. And then we've got a Florida trip, we've

[Aaron]: got a 30th birthday trip, we've got
a wedding weekend. Yeah, it's, I love

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: a revolution.

[Aaron]: It's so great.

[Ian Landsman]: My mind has been totally blown.
Like, yeah, none of us in our group really

[Ian Landsman]: knew about it. So my cousin
went to a bachelor party.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: Like six months ago or something.
And like, they just did it where the one guy

[Ian Landsman]: paid for everything. Nobody
paid

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: for anything though. The leader
paid for every single transaction. You know,

[Ian Landsman]: he got all the points, which
I think was probably part of his

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: goal, which is great.

[Aaron]: That guy.

[Ian Landsman]: And then,

[Aaron]: That

[Ian Landsman]: um,

[Aaron]: freaking

[Ian Landsman]: that

[Aaron]: guy.

[Ian Landsman]: guy, and then, uh, And then
they just split it up and they just all paid

[Ian Landsman]: him the amounts they

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: owed. And that was it. It was
like so easy. So then we use it for this and

[Ian Landsman]: we're all blown away. It's,
it's

[Aaron]: And

[Ian Landsman]: so

[Aaron]: you can

[Ian Landsman]: incredibly

[Aaron]: attach pictures

[Ian Landsman]: nice.

[Aaron]: of a receipt

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: and

[Ian Landsman]: I mean,

[Aaron]: you can,

[Ian Landsman]: we're not

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: doing

[Aaron]: can

[Ian Landsman]: that

[Aaron]: do,

[Ian Landsman]: because we don't care, but like,

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah,

[Aaron]: we don't care.

[Ian Landsman]: you could do that for the bigger
group or whatever.

[Aaron]: Yeah. And you can do crazy splitting
things like you can split it evenly. You can

[Aaron]: split it by percent. You can split
it by

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: portion. So you can be like, we bought,

[Ian Landsman]: Oh.

[Aaron]: we

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.

[Aaron]: bought 15 things and actually five
of the things were for this one guy and the

[Aaron]: other 10 were for the other 10 people.
And you can

[Ian Landsman]: Bye.

[Aaron]: say this guy gets five units of proportion

[Ian Landsman]: of

[Aaron]: and this

[Ian Landsman]: the...

[Aaron]: everyone else gets one unit. It's

[Ian Landsman]: Wow.

[Aaron]: like, Why would you ever need that?
I have no idea, but it's so cool.

[Ian Landsman]: I have used one so far. We've
been doing pretty much everything evenly, but

[Ian Landsman]: there has been one where it's
like, yeah, me and my brother just did something.

[Ian Landsman]: My cousin's family wasn't involved.
So it's like, oh, that is just me and him.

[Ian Landsman]: And it's like now it's split
in half between the two of us and not, um,

[Ian Landsman]: with him in it. And it's like
the tally all changes and

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: just blown away. Yeah. I dunno.
I feel like most of the hype around mobile

[Ian Landsman]: apps in general, like my mobile
app usage is almost entirely like native Apple

[Ian Landsman]: apps and like Twitter and maybe
like one or two other things and that's it.

[Ian Landsman]: And. But. This is one of those
ones that's like, yes, this is, this is making

[Ian Landsman]: it in. This is staying on the
phone, uh, because it's just so damn useful

[Ian Landsman]: in those couple times a year
where you need to do this kind of thing.

[Aaron]: What a gem.

[Ian Landsman]: So good.

[Aaron]: A

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Look at

[Aaron]: hidden

[Ian Landsman]: that.

[Aaron]: gem there at the end

[Ian Landsman]: Kit.

[Aaron]: of the pod. That's why you always stick
around, folks.

[Ian Landsman]: Think about this, on this one
trip, Waffle House and Splitwise, I've discovered

[Aaron]: You...

[Ian Landsman]: these two things.

[Aaron]: Your

[Ian Landsman]: What

[Aaron]: life,

[Ian Landsman]: a trip.

[Aaron]: your life is... And I discovered trucks!
You can just put a truck on a beach!

[Ian Landsman]: Hey, Chuck

[Aaron]: It's

[Ian Landsman]: on

[Aaron]: amazing!

[Ian Landsman]: a beach. We're learning.

[Aaron]: Yes,

[Ian Landsman]: This is

[Aaron]: this

[Ian Landsman]: unbelievable.

[Aaron]: is why we do this.

[Ian Landsman]: Sharing our knowledge.

[Aaron]: That's right. Alright, anything else?
Where do people find us?

[Ian Landsman]: man, they find us at mostlytechnical.com
and on YouTube. Check out the YouTube, the

[Ian Landsman]: YouTube gets, it's like it's
building up. I'm

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: sort of interested about the
YouTube growth eventually. It's nice to be

[Ian Landsman]: able to see how many subscribers
you have because podcasts, you know,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you can't really tell for sure,
but, and then we're at MostlyTechnicalPod on

[Ian Landsman]: Twitter, I believe. So check
that out. We should probably get

[Aaron]: If

[Ian Landsman]: these things down.

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: You're

[Aaron]: can find us,

[Ian Landsman]: right.

[Aaron]: find us. If not, we'll see you

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: next

[Ian Landsman]: all linked.

[Aaron]: time.

[Ian Landsman]: Go to the show notes. Thanks.

[Aaron]: All right, talk to you later, Ian.

[Ian Landsman]: Bye.