03: The Secret Is to Get a Truck

Ian & Aaron discuss Ian's vacation on the Outer Banks, Aaron's drive back from Vermont, Lift for Laravel, making videos for YouTube, & more.

Sponsored by LaraJobs & HelloQuery.

Sent questions or feedback to [e-mail]

Links for this week's show:

• Lift for Laravel
• Hassan Zahirnia - designer
• PHP doesn't suck (anymore) - YouTube
• PHP Doesn't Suck Anymore | Prime Reacts - YouTube
• Ian's Tweet re: Photo Books
• SplitWise

Creators & Guests

Host

Aaron Francis

Co-founder https://t.co/iQBe3dPhc1.Sincere poster. No cynicism. Dad to two sets of twins! 🖥️ https://t.co/wIdhAlsrlX 📹 https://t.co/hM9ogEIevT🎤 @MostlyTechPod

Host

Ian Landsman

Founder HelpSpot, LaraJobs, and Laracon Online.

Producer

Dave Hicking

@UserScape Product Manager. Previously at @TightenCo, @BeineckeLibrary, & @uconnlibrary. 1/2 of @CRSPodcast (I'm @doc_beats). 1/3 of @cheese_weather.

What is Mostly Technical?

Hosted by Ian Landsman and Aaron Francis, Mostly Technical is a lively discussion on Laravel, business, and an eclectic mix of related topics.

[Ian Landsman]: Alright, we're back! Episode
3.

[Aaron]: We are back and I think we're both
in different locations.

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Aaron]: I made it back home to Texas and so
I'm back in my normal setup. Where are you?

[Ian Landsman]: I'm in the Outer Banks of North
Carolina.

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: So yeah, we've been in different
spots every episode, I feel like. So I don't

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: know. It might be

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: hard

[Aaron]: think

[Ian Landsman]: to keep

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: this

[Aaron]: actually

[Ian Landsman]: up. We're

[Aaron]: true,

[Ian Landsman]: gonna have to

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: keep traveling.

[Aaron]: Yeah, so what's in the Outer Banks?
This is not a part of the country I'm familiar

[Aaron]: with.

[Ian Landsman]: So this is my first time here.
I've never been here before. It's really great.

[Ian Landsman]: It's, we normally go to Martha's
Vineyard kind of almost every year. And this

[Ian Landsman]: year my family was going down
here. So my brother and my cousin, we decided

[Ian Landsman]: to tag along with them. So we're
all here. It's great. Like beach right on the

[Ian Landsman]: ocean, or beach on the ocean,
house on the ocean. You know, ice cream and

[Ian Landsman]: bunch of kids running around
and this huge house with the pool and the beach

[Ian Landsman]: and. a million rooms and everything.

[Aaron]: And is the beach on the ocean or is
the beach in town? Hopefully the beach

[Ian Landsman]: The

[Aaron]: is

[Ian Landsman]: beaches,

[Aaron]: also on the ocean.

[Ian Landsman]: it's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: on the ocean.

[Aaron]: Okay, good.

[Ian Landsman]: Although we have this hurricane,
I guess, coming or something. I don't know.

[Ian Landsman]: So we'll see. I don't think
it's going to hit

[Aaron]: Oh yeah!

[Ian Landsman]: us, but I think it's going to
be like 50 mile an hour winds and things like

[Ian Landsman]: that. So.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I think I just saw that this
morning. So now is the is the weather there?

[Aaron]: Is it 108 like it is in Dallas or is
it OK?

[Ian Landsman]: No, it's all right. It's been
in the 80s, so it's been good beach weather.

[Ian Landsman]: It's been

[Aaron]: That's

[Ian Landsman]: warm

[Aaron]: amazing.

[Ian Landsman]: and very humid, so kids have
been wanting to get in the water and all that.

[Ian Landsman]: That's been good. Then hit the
pool. I never really had a setup quite like

[Ian Landsman]: this before. It's nice, because
we have the beach, obviously, out there. And

[Ian Landsman]: then you come in from the beach,
and there's the pool and the house. So you

[Ian Landsman]: start at the beach, then you
hit the pool, kind of like fully cleanse and

[Ian Landsman]: refresh, and then... Boom, you're
in the house hanging out. I mean, this is like

[Ian Landsman]: the theater room. I watched
messy in here the other night. I'll be watching

[Ian Landsman]: messy in here tonight again.

[Aaron]: Amazing.

[Ian Landsman]: So that's really

[Aaron]: OK,

[Ian Landsman]: cool.

[Aaron]: so I have I have opinions about the
beach and

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: the pool.

[Ian Landsman]: Oh, interesting.

[Aaron]: The beach, the beach is kind of frustrating
to me because the way that I've always done

[Aaron]: it is you pack up all your stuff, you
schlep it out there onto the beach. It's, you

[Aaron]: know, it's 100 degrees. You're covered

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: in sand. You get out there and then
you're expected to just sit there in the salt

[Aaron]: and the sun for hours.

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe

[Aaron]: and then you gotta walk all the way
back to the house for lunch.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: I love the pool. I love going to the
beach and sitting in a pool. That is my absolute

[Aaron]: favorite. You can wander outside, hop
in the pool, wander back inside. I just don't

[Aaron]: like- I don't like packing it up and
walking down the boardwalk.

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehe

[Aaron]: Does that make me an old man or just
lazy or what does that say?

[Ian Landsman]: No, but let me tell you, I used
to be like you, but I discovered the secrets

[Ian Landsman]: of the beach and I will share
with the audience the

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: secrets of the beach, okay?
So this is actually why we ended up going to

[Ian Landsman]: Martha's Vineyard when the kids
were little and for like 10 years or so. Because

[Ian Landsman]: one of the big keys to the beach,
so out, like the dragging yourself to the beach,

[Ian Landsman]: forget it, it's the worst thing
ever, especially once you have kids,

[Aaron]: Forget

[Ian Landsman]: the

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: kids,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: all the stuff,

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: the kids

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: are running around, the whole
thing's terrible. It's like you're just suicidal

[Ian Landsman]: after you just

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: walk to the beach, you're like,
that's it. So. You can't do that. Don't ever

[Ian Landsman]: do that. You gotta buy a truck.
Okay. You have

[Aaron]: Oh

[Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right.

[Aaron]: This is a low barrier to entry. You
gotta buy a truck.

[Ian Landsman]: Listen,

[Aaron]: Okay, yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: you need

[Aaron]: no,

[Ian Landsman]: a car.

[Aaron]: keep going.

[Ian Landsman]: This

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: is America. Everybody uses their
trucks as like mini vans.

[Aaron]: Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: It's fine.

[Aaron]: okay,

[Ian Landsman]: You

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: have a truck.

[Aaron]: for sure, keep going.

[Ian Landsman]: You could also do...

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: No.

[Aaron]: thought it was gonna be like, pack
an extra sandwich or something, but yeah, buy

[Aaron]: a truck. All right, keep

[Ian Landsman]: Buy

[Aaron]: going.

[Ian Landsman]: a truck. All right. Truck is
best. You could use SUV. or even a mini van

[Ian Landsman]: with four wheel drive, but you
know, a truck is best for a lot of reasons,

[Ian Landsman]: which I can tell you about.
You get a truck, you find a beach that lets

[Ian Landsman]: you drive on the beach, okay?

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: This is the solution to all
your problems,

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: because,

[Aaron]: see where this is going.

[Ian Landsman]: yes, because, right, so everything's
in the back of the truck, right?

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: You drive to the beach, you
don't have to stay near the water. So if you

[Ian Landsman]: wanna save money, if it's like,
beach vacation can be quite

[Aaron]: Oh,

[Ian Landsman]: expensive

[Aaron]: I see.

[Ian Landsman]: if you wanna be on the water,
right? So forget that. You stay

[Aaron]: Forget

[Ian Landsman]: inland.

[Aaron]: that, just buy a truck, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: You buy a truck with your savings.
You drive onto the beach. Okay. You park your

[Ian Landsman]: truck an inch

[Aaron]: For

[Ian Landsman]: from the

[Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: water. You push all the stuff
out the back. It's there. You didn't carry

[Ian Landsman]: anything. You have a huge ass
cooler with tons of food. If you have little

[Ian Landsman]: kids, all right, it's going
to get gross for a second, but you have a little

[Ian Landsman]: portable potty that's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: got the little Ziploc baggy
thing. They can go

[Aaron]: Oh,

[Ian Landsman]: to

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: the bathroom

[Aaron]: horrifying.

[Ian Landsman]: right there. You don't have
to take

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: them to the bathroom back anywhere.
And when they're done. tile everything into

[Ian Landsman]: the truck, it takes two seconds.
You drive off the beach. Most of the drive

[Ian Landsman]: on beaches, you usually end
up with a huge area of beach all to yourself.

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: It's the best thing ever. It's
fabulous.

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: So that's my recommendation.

[Aaron]: Okay, one fatal flaw is you have to
buy a new vehicle, but other than that, it's

[Aaron]: flawless. I guess, you know, if you're
flying, you could rent a truck

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: when you get there.

[Ian Landsman]: all these

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: places

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: have

[Aaron]: something.

[Ian Landsman]: rental jeeps and trucks

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: and things like that. So you
could rent it. Um, and then, Hey, a lot of

[Ian Landsman]: people now that just have, I
mean, you're in Texas. You told me there's

[Ian Landsman]: no trucks down there. Everybody's
got a truck.

[Aaron]: Oh, everybody's got a truck. Yeah,
everybody's

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: got a truck. I could

[Ian Landsman]: exactly.

[Aaron]: borrow a truck from anyone around here.
So here's something I saw on Twitter that kind

[Aaron]: of blew my mind. You're on this trip
and you're like, hey,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: I'm gonna go to this amazing little
roadside restaurant that nobody's ever heard

[Aaron]: of. It's called

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: a Waffle House. I've never been before.
What, you've never been to a Waffle

[Ian Landsman]: I've

[Aaron]: House?

[Ian Landsman]: never been to Waffle House.
This has been on my list of things to do for

[Ian Landsman]: a very long time. I don't know
if I've ever even seen a Waffle House. It's

[Ian Landsman]: crazy,

[Aaron]: What?

[Ian Landsman]: like I know. It's not even like
I've been avoiding them. I don't even believe

[Ian Landsman]: I've had the opportunity because
usually I would take the opportunity out of

[Ian Landsman]: a thing like that I've been
waiting for forever because it's like Waffle

[Ian Landsman]: House, it's such a thing.

[Aaron]: Do they not have them

[Ian Landsman]: No,

[Aaron]: in the North?

[Ian Landsman]: Northeast

[Aaron]: Really?

[Ian Landsman]: has no Waffle Houses that I've
ever seen. So, yeah. Waffle house.

[Aaron]: What did

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: was

[Aaron]: think?

[Ian Landsman]: very impressed. So it's, I mean,
I'm the day I tweeted that you said you had

[Ian Landsman]: gone there for breakfast. So
there you

[Aaron]: I had

[Ian Landsman]: go.

[Aaron]: gotten

[Ian Landsman]: It's like,

[Aaron]: it

[Ian Landsman]: yeah,

[Aaron]: for breakfast. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: it's a regular staple, but it
was great. It's

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: like,

[Aaron]: really

[Ian Landsman]: there's no vegetables.

[Aaron]: is.

[Ian Landsman]: There's like, there's waffles
and that's it. And like, you know, sandwiches

[Aaron]: No vegetables,

[Ian Landsman]: and hash

[Aaron]: waffles.

[Ian Landsman]: browns.

[Aaron]: Put it on my tombstone, which

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: unfortunately may be coming soon if
I keep going to Waffle House. But yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: That was good.

[Aaron]: it's like an American classic.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: I was surprised.

[Aaron]: so Waffle House is everywhere down
here. They also like weirdly never close. And

[Ian Landsman]: Right, I saw

[Aaron]: they

[Ian Landsman]: that.

[Aaron]: have, I don't know if they have a super
robust supply chain or what. But there's

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: like a way that you can measure how
bad a natural disaster is. And it's like called

[Aaron]: the Waffle House Index.

[Ian Landsman]: Ha

[Aaron]: And it's

[Ian Landsman]: ha

[Aaron]: like, how quickly did Waffle House
reopen slash did they ever close? It's very

[Aaron]: interesting. I don't know the full
details, but Waffle Houses are everywhere down

[Aaron]: here. I went on, uh, I guess that was,
would have been Friday, um,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm,

[Aaron]: for

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: breakfast. So every, every three weeks
we have this group of guys that gets together

[Aaron]: and goes, goes to breakfast. Um, it's
like. The only time everyone is available is,

[Aaron]: you know, 7 a.m. on Friday morning.
So there are like, there are probably eight

[Aaron]: of us in this group. And yeah, it's
awesome. And

[Ian Landsman]: real world.

[Aaron]: we usually, we usually go to this place
called John's Cafe, which is terrible.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: But when there are only, when there
are five or fewer of us that

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: RSVP, yes, we go to Waffle House because
Waffle House has, you know, those tables that

[Aaron]: you cannot move that only

[Ian Landsman]: I noticed

[Aaron]: seat

[Ian Landsman]: that.

[Aaron]: four people. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yes.

[Aaron]: And so we'll go to Waffle House and
the food. is incredible. It is like, it's the

[Aaron]: dirtiest, dineriest place you've ever
been,

[Ian Landsman]: It

[Aaron]: but the

[Ian Landsman]: is.

[Aaron]: food is amazing. And they like, you
ask for eggs, soft scrambled, and they make

[Aaron]: eggs, soft scrambled. Like they know
how to make eggs. It's, it's great. I love

[Aaron]: Waffle House.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, I love those places. See
that it's like, I'm sure this goes into that

[Ian Landsman]: index is like, there's basically
like what, like 10 ingredients on the whole

[Ian Landsman]: menu, you know, it's just like
the same things just like ordered differently

[Ian Landsman]: and, and so like, yeah, they
probably have an easy time reopening and they

[Ian Landsman]: only have to know how to do
a few things. You can get a chef. It's not

[Ian Landsman]: like they're making a bunch
of like a regular diet. And in Northeast, we

[Ian Landsman]: have tons of regular diners

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and it's just like, they have
400 items. There's like pot roast and eggs

[Ian Landsman]: and whatever sandwiches and
pasta and whatever it does,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: all these different things.
And usually it's all. Gross. And I want us

[Ian Landsman]: to get Waffle Houses. I need
Waffle Houses. The other thing, so I need Waffle

[Ian Landsman]: Houses. These are my big things
from the South. I need Waffle Houses and I

[Ian Landsman]: need Brew Thrus. Do you have
Brew Thrus there?

[Aaron]: A brew through? I think

[Ian Landsman]: Yes.

[Aaron]: I know what that is, but I don't, I
don't know if that's a brand name. That's not

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: something

[Ian Landsman]: like,

[Aaron]: we say down here.

[Ian Landsman]: okay, it's like, uh, it's like
a car wash. All

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: right. Like a drive through
car wash. But when you drive through it, instead

[Ian Landsman]: of your car getting washed,
there's just refrigerators along the side

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: where you get beer and you just
drive through. It's unbelievable. I'm like,

[Ian Landsman]: what genius thought of this?
Like, I don't know why we don't have these

[Ian Landsman]: in the Northeast. Like just
drive through and get your beer.

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: It's amazing.

[Aaron]: that's I didn't realize that was something
that wasn't everywhere. Yeah, we have

[Ian Landsman]: No.

[Aaron]: I think we call them in Texas, we have
a few beer barns drive through beer

[Ian Landsman]: Okay.

[Aaron]: barns.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: And then I do remember in. So I went
to I went to college at Texas A&M, which is

[Aaron]: down in, you know, college station
small, small town.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: We had a drive through margarita barn.
And

[Ian Landsman]: Ooh.

[Aaron]: so they would Yeah, so you could drive
through and get all kinds of different margaritas.

[Aaron]: And for the dear listener, You would
not drink them until you got home, obviously,

[Ian Landsman]: Obviously.

[Aaron]: because they would put tape over the
lid and you couldn't open it. It was impossible.

[Aaron]: There was a little piece of tape on
it and it was like, oh, I guess I'll have to

[Ian Landsman]: How

[Aaron]: wait

[Ian Landsman]: would you

[Aaron]: until

[Ian Landsman]: ever get

[Aaron]: I get

[Ian Landsman]: through

[Aaron]: home

[Ian Landsman]: that? Right.

[Aaron]: to open

[Ian Landsman]: You need

[Aaron]: this

[Ian Landsman]: scissors.

[Aaron]: because you need scissors. Yeah, so,
yeah, that's funny. Yeah, Waffle House and

[Aaron]: Beer Barns and a truck on every corner.
That's,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: you got it. That's the South.

[Ian Landsman]: There

[Aaron]: Good

[Ian Landsman]: we

[Aaron]: to

[Ian Landsman]: go.

[Aaron]: be back, baby. I love

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: being home.

[Ian Landsman]: I know. I don't get down to
like this part like southy south that much.

[Ian Landsman]: Like it's only every few years.
Like I sometimes end up in Florida or a place

[Ian Landsman]: like that, which is sort of
its own weird thing. I don't know.

[Aaron]: It is its own weird thing, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Don't put that, don't ascribe that
to us. I don't want Florida.

[Ian Landsman]: Right. It doesn't feel like
North Carolina Virginia type South to me. I

[Ian Landsman]: don't know

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: seems different. So yeah, it's
been great. How was your drive back? Because

[Ian Landsman]: you were making the long haul
there.

[Aaron]: I was, yeah. Made the long haul, made
it, made it back. Listened to book two of the

[Aaron]: Three Body Problem trilogy, the

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: entire

[Ian Landsman]: wanna do that.

[Aaron]: way. Incredible. It's so, so good.

[Ian Landsman]: I'm excited

[Aaron]: It is unlike any sci-fi book I've ever
read.

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm

[Aaron]: So it's very, very good. And the second
book has this, has this like, maybe literary

[Aaron]: device that is extremely, it just,
It keeps your mind spinning the entire time

[Aaron]: of like,

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: how would I, what would I do in this
situation? How would I, it's like almost like

[Aaron]: a logic puzzle that the characters
are playing through. And

[Ian Landsman]: Interesting.

[Aaron]: it's very good. So,

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: highly recommended. I made two stops.
I stopped in Cleveland again. And then I stopped

[Aaron]: in Little Rock, Arkansas, about four
and a half hours from home. I thought I could

[Aaron]: power through. But man, when you're
driving and the sleepies hit, you don't wanna

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: battle the sleepies on the road because
it takes two seconds and you're gone.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, four hours is still, it's
a pretty good hall of the power through

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: extremes, tiredness. Yeah, that's
a, that's a good stop. And you didn't have

[Ian Landsman]: the kids and stuff with you.
So it's like,

[Aaron]: Right.

[Ian Landsman]: uh, whatever, it just pop in
and it's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: easy.

[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. So I'm back feeling
much better being home in my space with a little

[Aaron]: bit of routine. Kids start school,
I think maybe next week. And life is going

[Aaron]: to be totally different.

[Ian Landsman]: know this has been like the
worst summer ever in terms of like I had all

[Ian Landsman]: these plans for things I was
gonna do this summer and just like the kids

[Ian Landsman]: had so many activities it was
just constant running around between three

[Ian Landsman]: kids and only two adults and
we're both every day like dropping somebody

[Ian Landsman]: off picking somebody up or it
was brutal and just so it's just so distracting

[Ian Landsman]: obviously then when you're just
taking out of your zone like one of the kids

[Ian Landsman]: for every other Every other
day for like three weeks had a two hour camp

[Ian Landsman]: that was like noon to two or
something,

[Aaron]: That is

[Ian Landsman]: just like

[Aaron]: not enough.

[Ian Landsman]: crazy stuff.

[Aaron]: Two hours

[Ian Landsman]: You know?

[Aaron]: is

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: not enough.

[Ian Landsman]: It was crazy.

[Aaron]: Like you barely make it home before
you have to go

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: back.

[Ian Landsman]: Exactly. So my whole summer
just totally blew up on my, um, productivity

[Ian Landsman]: that I was expecting, but that's
all right. We'll get everybody back in school

[Ian Landsman]: and get back to the normal grind,
which will be nice.

[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly. You wanna do some follow
ups? We have a

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: few.

[Ian Landsman]: let's do some follow up. All
right, well the first one is, immediately after

[Ian Landsman]: the last episode, Nuno wrote
back that in Volt, you can actually put the

[Ian Landsman]: blade template on the top of
the file. So if you haven't seen Volt, it's

[Ian Landsman]: a single page livewire blade
file combo package. And so you can put the

[Ian Landsman]: blade file on top and then the
PHP livewire logic on the bottom, which also

[Ian Landsman]: then lets you... get rid of
the PHP tag then. So, because you don't need

[Ian Landsman]: the ending PHP tag, you start

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: the PHP tag after the bleed
template. I don't know, what do you think about

[Ian Landsman]: this? I tried it out, I wasn't

[Aaron]: Love

[Ian Landsman]: sure, I don't know. I think

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: I like it, but it's sort

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: of,

[Aaron]: love it because that's the

[Ian Landsman]: it's

[Aaron]: way

[Ian Landsman]: kind of

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: Vue,

[Aaron]: do my

[Ian Landsman]: right?

[Aaron]: view single file

[Ian Landsman]: Right,

[Aaron]: components

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: is I would always put the template
tag at the top and the script tag at the bottom.

[Aaron]: And now people are coming into my space
and telling me I gotta do script setup and

[Aaron]: I gotta put script setup and do the
composition API and nah man. I put the template

[Aaron]: at the top,

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

[Aaron]: the script at the bottom. So this for
Volt, this feels good to me.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, people seem very excited
about that tweet. So if you don't know about

[Ian Landsman]: that and you've been trying
to give that a shot and see how you like it,

[Ian Landsman]: all right, we have another one,
right?

[Aaron]: Yep, we got another one. On the first
episode, we talked about how Tobias' indexing

[Aaron]: book, his landing page, was really,
really beautiful. And turns out it's the same

[Aaron]: designer that has done all the new
filament stuff. And I think he's full time

[Aaron]: on the filament team

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: now. His name is Hassan Zaharina. Close.
I definitely know it's Hassan. We'll put the

[Aaron]: link to his website in the show notes.
But he's done the sushi landing page, which

[Aaron]: is Caleb Porzio's array driver for
Eloquent. He's done Tobias' indexing book,

[Aaron]: he's done filament, so he's done all
kinds of great stuff. And I've seen him around

[Aaron]: the community a lot, I just didn't
know that he did Tobias' book, so I wanted

[Aaron]: to follow up with that and give him
a shout out for that.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, his work's really interesting.
I like it's kind of fresh and different. And

[Ian Landsman]: I always like

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: having

[Aaron]: is kind of

[Ian Landsman]: designers

[Aaron]: fresh, right?

[Ian Landsman]: in the mix, new designers in
the mix, designers in the Laravel sort of family

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: and sphere is always good to
have. And yeah, the Susie Page stands out a

[Ian Landsman]: lot for sure and the new filament

[Aaron]: I feel like

[Ian Landsman]: site is great.

[Aaron]: his design is a little bit more fun
and lively. It's a little bit bubbly.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And it's really, really good. I just
love that everyone has a different. This is

[Aaron]: very different than the stuff that
the Tailwind Labs team puts out. And I like

[Aaron]: that. They're both good, but I like
that this is a little bit more fun and bubbly.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, a little different.
The colors, colors too are definitely kind

[Ian Landsman]: of not your standard.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: You know, what's going, what's
hot lately of it's black and white or it's,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: you know,

[Aaron]: BG blue to BG purple

[Ian Landsman]: right.

[Aaron]: gradient. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: That kind of thing. Like, so
a little, little different there stands

[Aaron]: So if,

[Ian Landsman]: out.

[Aaron]: as a reminder, if you wanna get, shout
it out to upwards of 15 to 20 people, send

[Aaron]: us mail. We have mailbag,

[Ian Landsman]: Hey!

[Aaron]: we will read it out on the air. So
I forget where to send it, so I'm gonna throw

[Aaron]: it over to Ian. Where do people send
their mail?

[Ian Landsman]: Uh, mostly technical pod at
gmail.com.

[Aaron]: Oh good,

[Ian Landsman]: I believe

[Aaron]: that was, I put you on

[Ian Landsman]: pretty

[Aaron]: the spot,

[Ian Landsman]: sure.

[Aaron]: that was perfect, yeah. Pretty

[Ian Landsman]: Pretty

[Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: sure that's true. I'm pretty

[Aaron]: Also,

[Ian Landsman]: sure

[Aaron]: also

[Ian Landsman]: it'll be in

[Aaron]: Twitter.

[Ian Landsman]: the show notes for

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: sure.

[Aaron]: it'll be

[Ian Landsman]: So

[Aaron]: in the show

[Ian Landsman]: just

[Aaron]: notes for sure, for

[Ian Landsman]: check

[Aaron]: sure.

[Ian Landsman]: there just in case, but I'm
pretty sure that's correct.

[Aaron]: Yeah, that sounds right. So thanks
for

[Ian Landsman]: We'll

[Aaron]: those

[Ian Landsman]: get

[Aaron]: followups.

[Ian Landsman]: this down.

[Aaron]: Yeah. All right, where do you wanna
go next?

[Ian Landsman]: Well, we'll go into Laravel
stuff a little bit earlier. How about that?

[Ian Landsman]: Let's say we get some under
our belt.

[Aaron]: Wow.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Something different We got this
lift package

[Aaron]: Yeah, so I saw this. Tell me, one,
tell me what it is, and then tell me your opinions

[Aaron]: on it.

[Ian Landsman]: Um, hold on. Let me just get,
see what we're doing. You get to watch us run

[Ian Landsman]: the show here because I want
to have Uh it up in front of me. Why is this

[Ian Landsman]: not working?

[Ian Landsman]: vacation podcasting is not ideal.

[Aaron]: We're talking Wendell Adriel's Laravel

[Ian Landsman]: That's what

[Aaron]: lift.

[Ian Landsman]: I'm looking for. See, you got
the

[Aaron]: Hey,

[Ian Landsman]: name.

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: I wanted

[Aaron]: got

[Ian Landsman]: his last

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: name.

[Aaron]: Come

[Ian Landsman]: I knew it's

[Aaron]: on.

[Ian Landsman]: Wendell. I was thinking about
his Wendell, but not, not...

[Aaron]: You didn't know it was Wendell. I knew
it was Wendell.

[Ian Landsman]: I knew it was Wendell,

[Aaron]: You're you're

[Ian Landsman]: but

[Aaron]: over there fumbling in the in the messy

[Ian Landsman]: I know.

[Aaron]: room. You

[Ian Landsman]: All

[Aaron]: don't know anything. OK, you have

[Ian Landsman]: right,

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: so

[Aaron]: You have the GitHub pulled up.

[Ian Landsman]: I've got it. So yeah, so Wendell's

[Aaron]: OK.

[Ian Landsman]: package. Wendell, just a great
name, by the way. I don't

[Aaron]: Great

[Ian Landsman]: think I've ever

[Aaron]: name.

[Ian Landsman]: met a Wendell in person,

[Aaron]: No,

[Ian Landsman]: but

[Aaron]: great

[Ian Landsman]: I love

[Aaron]: name.

[Ian Landsman]: that name.

[Aaron]: Congrats, Wendell, great name.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, yeah, he hit the lottery
of the...

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: the naming,

[Aaron]: seriously.

[Ian Landsman]: parents did a good job there.
Yeah, so Lyft is this kind of crazy package

[Ian Landsman]: that lets you define a whole
bunch of stuff about eloquent models with attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: And

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: I just have a lot of thoughts
here, but

[Aaron]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Ian Landsman]: a lot of thoughts. But first
of all, before we even get into the package,

[Ian Landsman]: what's your just general take
on attributes

[Aaron]: Yeah, see,

[Ian Landsman]: in PHP?

[Aaron]: this is where we're gonna end up.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: You know, Ian, I don't love him. I
really don't.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that was my take initially
as well.

[Aaron]: Initially, wow, this is a setup for
conflict that makes good

[Ian Landsman]: Possibly,

[Aaron]: radio. So

[Ian Landsman]: possibly.

[Aaron]: here's the thing, one, I'm not familiar
with them. And so I'm super aware that what

[Aaron]: looks good to me is 70% what I'm familiar
with. And I think that that's everybody. And

[Aaron]: so I'm looking at all of these attributes.
Even back in the day for a hot minute, there

[Aaron]: was, let's do all of our routing. by
putting little attributes over the controller

[Aaron]: methods. And I was like, no way,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: I hate that,

[Ian Landsman]: no, I don't

[Aaron]: hideous.

[Ian Landsman]: know that's a terrible idea.

[Aaron]: Yeah, so hated that. Attributes in
general still seem foreign to me. And I think

[Aaron]: part of what I don't like about it
is it feels like, man, it feels, maybe it feels

[Aaron]: like you scatter one thing that used
to be centralized into a bunch of different

[Aaron]: places. like the routing is a good
example. I like to have a routes file. I don't

[Aaron]: want to have like my route definitions
littered all over the place.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: Um, and I also, maybe this is a knowledge
gap. I don't fully know how they work and what

[Aaron]: all can be influenced. And I don't
think I would remember to check like, Oh, you

[Aaron]: got to go check the annotation or the,
or the attribute or whatever. And so I don't

[Aaron]: know. And he's the, you can like pass
arguments. And so then you're like, I don't

[Aaron]: know. Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: that, yeah, I'll stop there. Tell me
your journey with attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, I haven't had like the
full journey yet, I guess, but I definitely

[Ian Landsman]: didn't like when people were
trying to do it with the annotations and like,

[Ian Landsman]: it's like a comment that has
all the stuff

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: in it. Like I hate the comments
with the stuff in it. I don't want to comment

[Aaron]: Oh, so

[Ian Landsman]: at all.

[Aaron]: like

[Ian Landsman]: And I don't

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: want comments with stuff in
it.

[Aaron]: PHP Doc Blocks, that version?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Like I don't

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: like DocBlocks in general. And
I don't like, I mean, at some point there was

[Ian Landsman]: something you do in there, right?
And like the IDE

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: would like do certain stuff
with it or whatever. It was like, even like

[Ian Landsman]: type. management stuff like
that, which obviously is a common use case,

[Ian Landsman]: but I just hate that. I don't
like the syntax. It's so it's a big like eyesore

[Ian Landsman]: in your way of reading the code.
So I definitely prefer this over those, but

[Ian Landsman]: I agree. Like when I first saw
the attributes in general, I was like, I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know. But here and there, there's
been more use cases like LiveWire uses them

[Ian Landsman]: pretty heavily in LiveWire

[Aaron]: They

[Ian Landsman]: 3.

[Aaron]: do.

[Ian Landsman]: A lot of the spaddy packages
use them now in different ways and kind of

[Ian Landsman]: I'm kind of seeing it. I mean,
there's definitely the big limitation is that

[Ian Landsman]: you can't like do anything dynamic
in them. And that does

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: sometimes cause some oddities
like with translation

[Aaron]: Hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: strings and things like that
where like you need to be able to do something

[Ian Landsman]: dynamically. So there are some,
like even in this package,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: like if you use it for a rule
and you pass a string, like you can't translate

[Ian Landsman]: that string. So if you want
to override

[Aaron]: Got

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: the rules message, you have
no way to translate it. Um, which

[Aaron]: Got

[Ian Landsman]: is semi

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: edge case, but there's a fair
amount of apps that are translated. So there

[Ian Landsman]: are, there is stuff like

[Aaron]: Hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: that, but I don't know for,
for eloquent, I do kind of feel like this is

[Ian Landsman]: pretty interesting because it's
like, instead of looking three or four or five

[Ian Landsman]: places in the file for different
configurations, I can just

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: see them all here and they're
like, so it's sort of like a, in that way,

[Ian Landsman]: like a routes file, it's like,
I can just go to this one place. and see

[Aaron]: Oh man,

[Ian Landsman]: everything applied

[Aaron]: you got

[Ian Landsman]: to the

[Aaron]: me.

[Ian Landsman]: name instead of going to like
the different methods that do the relationship

[Ian Landsman]: and then do the type and like
whatever, do the rule

[Aaron]: Okay, so give

[Ian Landsman]: and

[Aaron]: us

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: all

[Aaron]: two

[Ian Landsman]: this stuff.

[Aaron]: second overview of what's happening
in this package so people know.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so in the package, a lot
of the stuff you can define in Eloquent already

[Ian Landsman]: through like methods or different
ways like that. You can or like in properties

[Ian Landsman]: like fillable, the fillable
property and things like that. You can just

[Ian Landsman]: do as attributes right next
to the public property. So. you can just have

[Ian Landsman]: that it's fillable. It's like
a fillable attribute. And then there's a cast

[Ian Landsman]: attribute if you want to cast
it. So these aren't, you don't have to put

[Ian Landsman]: this name property in the fillable
array. And then again, in the cast thing. And

[Ian Landsman]: then if you have a relationship
based

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: on it, it can, that could be
defined here. So you can have all these things

[Ian Landsman]: in one spot. You can have your
validation rules there. So you don't have like

[Ian Landsman]: the separate rules array and
all that. So it's interesting. I don't, so

[Ian Landsman]: I haven't even used it yet.
I've just been sort of following along and

[Ian Landsman]: every day he's kind of adding
new

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: attributes. But I feel like
there's something here. I wouldn't mind, there's

[Ian Landsman]: like a technique I like to call
something being outwelled. I wouldn't

[Aaron]: Huh?

[Ian Landsman]: mind it maybe being outwelled
by the man himself because, you

[Aaron]: Ha

[Ian Landsman]: know, he

[Aaron]: ha

[Ian Landsman]: always has a great vision on
interfaces

[Aaron]: Yeah He does

[Ian Landsman]: and APIs

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: and things. And so... There's
probably some stuff he might be able to, uh,

[Ian Landsman]: do here, but I don't know. I
feel like there is something here because that

[Ian Landsman]: is always one of the things
that in a big eloquent file does get a little

[Ian Landsman]: bit annoying.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: That it's like, okay, I have
this, you know, property I need to like check

[Ian Landsman]: in 10 places, like where all
it's doing and whatnot. And so, I don't know,

[Ian Landsman]: having this one place to have
everything defined about it is, is kind of

[Ian Landsman]: intriguing. But you're,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you're not, you're not buying
it yet. You're not

[Aaron]: I'm

[Ian Landsman]: in.

[Aaron]: not sold. And the only reason I'm not
sold is because of... is truly because of my

[Aaron]: distaste on the strong side and not
being familiar on the kind side of annotations

[Aaron]: or whatever they're

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: called. So one thing I do like is that
we're still exploring. Like, I love

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: that Wendell did this because... There
can be, I think, sometimes like a sense that

[Aaron]: Laravel is almost complete

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: and we're lucky for that. But this
is this is a good like, hey, I've got an opinion

[Aaron]: and the opinion is, you know, I want
to use annotations. And I think I'm going to

[Aaron]: try to pull it off. Love that. Absolutely
love that. I'm not yet sold on the language

[Aaron]: feature

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm

[Aaron]: yet. And so that makes this package
be something that I look at and I'm like, ah.

[Aaron]: I don't want to do that. This is kind
of the same way I feel about super strong types.

[Aaron]: Like if somebody were to

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: tell me, oh, you could add this package,
you could use PHP stand level nine and get

[Aaron]: super strict typing. It's like, I don't
really want to do that.

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: I'm not super interested in that. But
I do like anything in the eloquent space and

[Aaron]: I do like that we're still trying to
push the ball forward. But yeah, I can see.

[Aaron]: Like I can see people are really gonna
like this, especially people that like annotations.

[Aaron]: Are they annotations or attributes?
What are they actually

[Ian Landsman]: No,

[Aaron]: called?

[Ian Landsman]: am I calling them annotations?
Maybe that, yeah, I think

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: they

[Aaron]: think

[Ian Landsman]: are attributes.

[Aaron]: I was calling them attributes,

[Ian Landsman]: Yes, I mean,

[Aaron]: but I think they're annotations.

[Ian Landsman]: no,

[Aaron]: No,

[Ian Landsman]: it's

[Aaron]: is it

[Ian Landsman]: attributes.

[Aaron]: the other way around?

[Ian Landsman]: Yes,

[Aaron]: It's attributes.

[Ian Landsman]: it's attributes. I think we
got ourselves mixed up there in the beginning,

[Ian Landsman]: but it's attributes,

[Aaron]: Okay.

[Ian Landsman]: yes. Yeah,

[Aaron]: Yeah, well, that's confusing.

[Ian Landsman]: well, it's so new. We don't
even know what to call these

[Aaron]: We

[Ian Landsman]: things.

[Aaron]: don't, yeah exactly. How am I supposed

[Ian Landsman]: It's so

[Aaron]: to like

[Ian Landsman]: new,

[Aaron]: something?

[Ian Landsman]: it's like

[Aaron]: I don't

[Ian Landsman]: three

[Aaron]: even know

[Ian Landsman]: years

[Aaron]: what it is.

[Ian Landsman]: old, but you know,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: we don't know what to

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: call them.

[Aaron]: exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, the attributes, so. The
other thing that with this kind of package,

[Ian Landsman]: always I'm a little cautious
is cause like it's really messing with something

[Ian Landsman]: that's deep baked into the core
and that a lot of things expect to work a certain

[Ian Landsman]: way and who knows if in some
edge case somewhere, it doesn't work that certain

[Ian Landsman]: way and you don't discover that
for quite a while until you hit the weirdo

[Ian Landsman]: edge case where it actually
doesn't load up properly or whatever. So

[Aaron]: Yeah, that's one of

[Ian Landsman]: there's.

[Aaron]: the tough parts about this.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I haven't looked into
how it works like internally. So I have no

[Ian Landsman]: idea if that's, if there's anything
like that, but I do, that is just an area where

[Ian Landsman]: I do get a little cautious.
It's not one of these packages that's like

[Ian Landsman]: its own thing and whatever it's,

[Aaron]: Right,

[Ian Landsman]: you know,

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: it'll be clear if it's working
or not, cause it just adds a feature. Uh, this

[Ian Landsman]: is a little different where
everything, everything's going through this

[Ian Landsman]: thing and so,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: uh, it's a little scarier, but
yeah.

[Aaron]: Yeah, also one of the tough spots for
me is putting the rules in the model itself.

[Aaron]: Um, because I think that's good a lot
of the times, but then rules can be context

[Aaron]: dependent. And so I've always, this,
this package aside, I've always had a hard

[Aaron]: time centralizing the rules into

[Ian Landsman]: I was just gonna

[Aaron]: the model.

[Ian Landsman]: ask you about that. Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: Yeah. It's like,

[Ian Landsman]: Just in general,

[Aaron]: well, well in,

[Ian Landsman]: what do you do? What do you
like to do with your

[Aaron]: oh

[Ian Landsman]: rules?

[Aaron]: man, I don't

[Ian Landsman]: This

[Aaron]: know.

[Ian Landsman]: is like the eternal

[Aaron]: It's the

[Ian Landsman]: struggle

[Aaron]: worst.

[Ian Landsman]: I have,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: yes.

[Aaron]: so the problem is, and I've tried centralizing
it before and basically making my own kind

[Aaron]: of like rules factory, rules object
thing.

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: It just doesn't work. So

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: here's the problem. Here's the problem
as I see it. You've got HTTP coming in and

[Aaron]: the rules could be different based
on permissions or the... the

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: state that the model is in, all kinds
of things, right? And that's just HTTP. Then

[Aaron]: you've got

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: command line tools that you're working
with where you can, as the super admin or whatever,

[Aaron]: you go in and you're like, ah, I need
to process these 50 customers. I'm just gonna

[Aaron]: run this command line tool. And then
you've got background jobs. You've got all

[Aaron]: these places that can touch a model
and every situation is so different that the

[Aaron]: rules are necessarily different. And
while it's good to say like, the name is always

[Aaron]: required, like that may be the only
one that is always true.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And I don't want to put that somewhere
and then these other rules somewhere else.

[Aaron]: And so I feel like I end up

[Ian Landsman]: Yep.

[Aaron]: recreating the rules just to have safety
that I'm validating the right thing at the

[Aaron]: right time.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: There's like, I just, I don't know.
I don't know the better way.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I don't know. It's like,
I almost, I have toy, uh, like I've been playing

[Ian Landsman]: around with the DTOs and things
like that, because

[Aaron]: Uh huh.

[Ian Landsman]: like they let you validate,
but there is still these scenarios where like

[Ian Landsman]: the data is different on create
versus update. And then

[Aaron]: quarterly.

[Ian Landsman]: you have like something that's
optional sometimes. And then sometimes that

[Ian Landsman]: gets weird with the DTO and
like, so then you have these like classes for

[Ian Landsman]: optional, like in the spotty
package and you have like, you know, you have

[Ian Landsman]: all this like tight pinning
that's going on and multiple type hints and

[Ian Landsman]: like, it's just like, I don't
know. It's, I want, I want it to be like that.

[Ian Landsman]: I want it to

[Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: be, here's the central location,
all the magic's here. I don't have to worry

[Ian Landsman]: about it. But then in practice,
yeah, like in, I mean, this is a big thing

[Ian Landsman]: too. I feel like that if you're
not, haven't built a real app or, I just feel

[Ian Landsman]: like when you have real apps
that customers use, there's just all these

[Ian Landsman]: things that you have to do that
are not. perfect and you have to duplicate

[Ian Landsman]: code sometimes or things like
that because ultimately like the app just has

[Ian Landsman]: to work a certain way and the
nice way that the framework or the package

[Ian Landsman]: or whatever would want you to
do it just it doesn't work it doesn't

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: work and so it just ends up
being more complicated or you do all a bunch

[Ian Landsman]: of weird stuff to make it work
but now it's all these edge cases are created

[Ian Landsman]: or like just more complexity
of figuring out what's even going on versus

[Ian Landsman]: if you just had a rules array
in two different spots, that was basically

[Ian Landsman]: the same except for, you know,
one or two differences or whatnot. So.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I feel like this is that's why
we don't have it as a first party primitive,

[Aaron]: like

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Laravel has given us the powerful validator
and the rules and the form requests. And Laravel

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: has given us all of that. And I feel
like the reason we don't have validation built

[Aaron]: into the eloquent model is for that
exact reason. It's because

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it's too hard. Like there are too many
different ways that you might want to update

[Aaron]: a model in too many different scenarios
that having a static rules array. just isn't

[Aaron]: viable in a real application.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. This is another thing
I've been thinking about lately is I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know. I'll be interested to
get your take on it. I feel like every time

[Ian Landsman]: I stray away from that. So this
is kind of even somewhat counter to what we're

[Ian Landsman]: just saying, but every time
I stray away from the eloquent model is sort

[Ian Landsman]: of the, the core of logic, so
to speak, um, I don't even

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: know how to describe this, but
if like, like even with messing with the DTOs

[Ian Landsman]: and things like that,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: it just gets like so much more
complicated

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and the benefits. I feel like.
I always see them in the app, like I'm reading

[Ian Landsman]: about something. I'm like, oh,
this would be amazing. And then you try to

[Ian Landsman]: implement it and you're like,
oh yeah, but this thing and the other thing,

[Ian Landsman]: and it doesn't work in this
scenario and all those things. And I'm like,

[Ian Landsman]: oh, I should have just like
stuck with like calling the eloquent model,

[Ian Landsman]: like create in this controller
and everything would have been

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: fine. But instead I

[Aaron]: Correct.

[Ian Landsman]: got fancy

[Aaron]: Ha.

[Ian Landsman]: and now it's like taking me
three extra days and

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: I don't even know what's going
on. So

[Aaron]: Now I'm

[Ian Landsman]: I don't

[Aaron]: wrapped

[Ian Landsman]: know what

[Aaron]: around

[Ian Landsman]: your

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: thoughts

[Aaron]: axle

[Ian Landsman]: are.

[Aaron]: of misdirection and

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: yep, I am an eloquent slash active
record maximalist.

[Ian Landsman]: Okay, yeah.

[Aaron]: As much as I can do, give me a super
fat model with methods for everything and I'm

[Aaron]: a happy man. So

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I feel the same way. I will say that
I try to stick to... I try to stick to... the

[Aaron]: conventions elsewhere, like form requests
are a good example

[Ian Landsman]: Yep.

[Aaron]: because you can validate those, get
all your correct data out, and then throw it

[Aaron]: into an eloquent model.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: But yeah, the whole, I feel like I
don't want to open this can of worms, but event

[Aaron]: sourcing is one of them where

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: That's even like the next

[Aaron]: oh

[Ian Landsman]: level. Yeah.

[Aaron]: man, what am I doing? And maybe

[Ian Landsman]: Yup.

[Aaron]: we can have Daniel on at some point
to argue with us, Daniel

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Coborn, and he'll tell me why it's
good. But that's one of those things where

[Aaron]: I'm like... You know, man, I'm just
gonna do my model thing. So yeah, I feel the

[Aaron]: same way.

[Ian Landsman]: One thing I have sort of taken
in and use a lot now is actions, like the action

[Ian Landsman]: pattern. I

[Aaron]: Oh,

[Ian Landsman]: do

[Aaron]: tell

[Ian Landsman]: like that

[Aaron]: me.

[Ian Landsman]: a lot. Yeah. Like

[Aaron]: Somebody

[Ian Landsman]: there's a layerable

[Aaron]: was just

[Ian Landsman]: action package

[Aaron]: asking

[Ian Landsman]: that works

[Aaron]: me

[Ian Landsman]: really good.

[Aaron]: if I used actions and I said that I
haven't, but I wish I had in certain cases.

[Aaron]: So tell me what you're using them for.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, so I love the actions
because it's pretty much just like calling

[Ian Landsman]: the active record, you know,
create or whatever you're trying to do. It's

[Ian Landsman]: just like one little step of
abstraction from that. And then in a real world

[Ian Landsman]: app, I find that it's quite
useful because it's. So the action is just

[Ian Landsman]: like a PHP class for people
who don't know. If you use the Laravel actions

[Ian Landsman]: package, it does some nice like
helpers and stuff for you, so I would recommend

[Ian Landsman]: that I've used that quite a
bit. Um, I don't use that, that thing goes

[Ian Landsman]: a little crazy and starts to
get a little too much for me. Like you can

[Ian Landsman]: just take this action and have
it be your whole controller. You

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: could take this action and have
it be your whole job and things like that.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: So that, I actually don't use
those parts because it starts to get like in

[Ian Landsman]: the super magical territory.
I just

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: use it as an action. And so
ways you just call this class, like where you

[Ian Landsman]: would call like post create
or whatever, you might just have like a create

[Ian Landsman]: post action. And so you call
that and you can just pass in your validated

[Ian Landsman]: data or whatever.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: And so what I like about that
though, is it gives you this nice central spot

[Ian Landsman]: for if you have other business
logic, which in like a real world app, you

[Ian Landsman]: tend to. And so it's like, well,
when I do this, I also have to like, just do

[Ian Landsman]: this other thing. Right. And
so instead of having to duplicate that in the

[Ian Landsman]: multiple places of yes, I have
it in this controller and I have another controller

[Ian Landsman]: and I have a command line thing
that does it and as a web hook, then it's a

[Ian Landsman]: different controller and whatever,
so you can just have this, the action that

[Ian Landsman]: you call everywhere. You pass
the data. So that's centralized. If you have

[Ian Landsman]: other stuff to do, maybe you
have to like fire an event or whatever, you

[Ian Landsman]: don't have to duplicate all
that code everywhere. So it just gives you

[Ian Landsman]: that one step back, but it's
not complicated. Like you can just go

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: into that. It's very clear.
Usually they're very short and it's super testable.

[Ian Landsman]: Like it's like, this is this
one

[Aaron]: Yeah, that's true.

[Ian Landsman]: function. I can just easily
write tests for it. Um, and the package also

[Ian Landsman]: has nice helpers for that. You
don't need to use a package. Like you can just

[Ian Landsman]: build a PHP class and do this,
but The package does have some niceties like

[Ian Landsman]: test helpers and things, which
are really great. And yeah, so I really like

[Ian Landsman]: the actions. That is one that
stuck with me because it's pretty much like

[Ian Landsman]: active recordy really, but

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: just with a little more abstraction
so you can

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: shove

[Aaron]: it's like

[Ian Landsman]: some

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: other

[Aaron]: new,

[Ian Landsman]: stuff in there.

[Aaron]: it's like a new first class citizen
that you can then centralize some stuff in.

[Aaron]: And the thing that

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I've always like, I think this Laravel
actions package, which is very thorough and

[Aaron]: very good. I don't think that was around
back when I was doing this app that needs it.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: And the place that I think I need it
is like. when I do the same thing in multiple

[Aaron]: places, like just like we were talking
about with the rules array,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I'm doing the same thing, whether it's
like an internal customer service person is

[Aaron]: creating a property, you know, a home,
an address is creating a property. I'm bulk

[Aaron]: importing, you know, 500 properties.
We're creating a property via webhook. We're

[Aaron]: creating a property via background
job. All of those things are like

[Ian Landsman]: All right.

[Aaron]: creating a property record. and I ended
up having to be like, ah, I gotta make sure

[Aaron]: that I do the right thing four different

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: places, and it's like, ah, this would
be good to centralize. So yeah, I do like the

[Aaron]: concept of actions.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, it's really nice for that.
It's like, that's the perfect use case. Just

[Ian Landsman]: like, yep, I'm going to create
it, but then I'm going to fire this event and

[Ian Landsman]: I'm going to send an email and
I want those three things to happen every single

[Ian Landsman]: time I create this record. And
you just always know that those things are

[Ian Landsman]: happening and you can test it
and all that. So, uh, that those I really like,

[Ian Landsman]: it's just so nice and clean
and organized and all that. But, uh, Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: but I agree besides that, these
other higher level things. And this is probably,

[Ian Landsman]: I mean, I don't know, maybe
this is like, both of us have this kind of

[Ian Landsman]: background of coming from the
less formal

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: side of computer science. So
I do think there's something to that too. Although

[Ian Landsman]: I definitely know a lot of people
who learned on their own and are definitely

[Ian Landsman]: more into these type of more
advanced patterns and things, but. I don't

[Ian Landsman]: know, I tend to be very practical
in nature in these things and just be like,

[Ian Landsman]: okay,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: this is clean and easy to understand
and somebody else could understand it. If I

[Ian Landsman]: have to throw some random person
in there, right? It's not gonna take

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: them too long to learn a whole
new pattern and all this stuff that has all

[Ian Landsman]: these different rules and things.
It's like, nope, here's a PHP class and it

[Ian Landsman]: does a couple things. And

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: I get that part already and
we're good.

[Aaron]: Yeah, it's

[Ian Landsman]: We

[Aaron]: called

[Ian Landsman]: can

[Aaron]: Create

[Ian Landsman]: get productive,

[Aaron]: Post. You can figure

[Ian Landsman]: right?

[Aaron]: out what it does.

[Ian Landsman]: Exactly, it's straightforward.

[Aaron]: All right, well, good package, Wendell.
I look forward to seeing how that will develop.

[Ian Landsman]: All right, next on the list
here.

[Aaron]: You wanna talk YouTube?

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, sure.

[Aaron]: PHP doesn't suck anymore.

[Ian Landsman]: doesn't we know that for sure
we're here look at that's the short version

[Ian Landsman]: of

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: the video

[Aaron]: does. Hahaha. Yeah. Thanks for tuning
in. So I made a video. I made a video and it

[Aaron]: covered like,

[Ian Landsman]: Wow. Yeah.

[Aaron]: yeah, right?

[Ian Landsman]: I just, I

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: just

[Aaron]: think

[Ian Landsman]: saw

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: your views on it.

[Aaron]: just opened

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it. Yeah. It covered some of the changes
from 2012 to now. And I picked 2012 because

[Aaron]: it's like a long time ago and you know
5.4-ish era. And I just ran through like, hey,

[Aaron]: did you guys know that we have traits
and we have types and we have enums and we

[Aaron]: have, you know, generators, that kind
of stuff. It's funny because I thought it was

[Aaron]: good. Like I thought it was a good
video and I thought, ah, some people, some

[Aaron]: people will be interested. I think
the title did a lot of work for me there

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: because I think I got people that were
mad that I said that PHP doesn't suck anymore.

[Aaron]: And I think I got people that were
mad that suggested that I suggested that PHP

[Aaron]: ever sucked.

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: And so like I got I got the people
who were

[Ian Landsman]: Both

[Aaron]: on

[Ian Landsman]: sides.

[Aaron]: my team and the people that were haters.
I got them all to come and comment and everything.

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: Yup.

[Aaron]: I think I got lucky with that with
that title there. But yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: always

[Aaron]: hundred

[Ian Landsman]: a big key.

[Aaron]: thousand views.

[Ian Landsman]: So congratulations. Amazing.

[Aaron]: Isn't

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: mean,

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: 5.7

[Aaron]: craziest thing you've ever

[Ian Landsman]: thousand

[Aaron]: heard?

[Ian Landsman]: upvotes. Like that's

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: an incredible amount of upvotes.
Like

[Aaron]: It's crazy!

[Ian Landsman]: I feel like that percentage
is unusual for like five, six percent of the

[Ian Landsman]: viewers to vote at all. Um,

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: seems

[Aaron]: let me

[Ian Landsman]: unusually

[Aaron]: see. I think

[Ian Landsman]: high to me even.

[Aaron]: I can see

[Ian Landsman]: which is

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: percent. It's 98% thumbs up. So 5,700
likes and 98%

[Ian Landsman]: Wow.

[Aaron]: up votes versus down.

[Ian Landsman]: That's amazing.

[Aaron]: Crazy!

[Ian Landsman]: That's incredible. Yeah, and
I thought the video was so good because it

[Ian Landsman]: was just like, yeah, just jumped
into every

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: single thing that's changed,
all the big stuff. And it's like, boom, here's

[Ian Landsman]: 15 seconds on this, here's 15
seconds on this,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and just kept the pace going
really nice.

[Aaron]: Yeah, I'm really trying to find, I'm
trying to find like the ideal YouTube format

[Aaron]: because it is

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: very different than like a lot of the
work I've done historically has been long form

[Aaron]: educational, right? So I'll do

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: a Laracast course or teach accounting
or teach databases and it's like, I know that

[Aaron]: I have you for a couple hours and I'm
going to tell you everything you need to know.

[Aaron]: YouTube,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: you're fighting people clicking away
or closing.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: And so... I'm trying to find that format,
but this one worked.

[Ian Landsman]: This also seems like one of
these great ones that you could like break

[Ian Landsman]: this up and throw it on Instagram
and all the other like,

[Aaron]: Oh, that's

[Ian Landsman]: or on

[Aaron]: a great

[Ian Landsman]: YouTube

[Aaron]: idea.

[Ian Landsman]: shorts and whatever, right?

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Like here's like 15 seconds,
like just create some new little intro. That's

[Ian Landsman]: like a two second intro. And
it's like, boom, here's, uh, another

[Aaron]: Oh shoot,

[Ian Landsman]: thing about

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: why

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: PHP

[Aaron]: great idea.

[Ian Landsman]: doesn't suck. We use all this.
Um, Holy cow. It has 1100 comments.

[Aaron]: Oh dude,

[Ian Landsman]: That's insane.

[Aaron]: so many comments.

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: And

[Ian Landsman]: know. What do you

[Aaron]: fully half of them are like, oh, PHP
still sucks.

[Ian Landsman]: Well, that's you

[Aaron]: I'm

[Ian Landsman]: too,

[Aaron]: like, come

[Ian Landsman]: man.

[Aaron]: on.

[Ian Landsman]: Like.

[Aaron]: I don't care if you think that, but
be more, like I'm not offended as a PHP developer,

[Aaron]: I'm offended as a terminally online
commenter. Like make a better comment. This

[Aaron]: comment

[Ian Landsman]: Your comment

[Aaron]: is stupid.

[Ian Landsman]: sucks.

[Aaron]: Yeah, exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: I think that is kind of a known
issue with the YouTube comments, unfortunately.

[Ian Landsman]: I think the ratio of quality
comments to

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: crap is not ideal.

[Aaron]: I do let my spice come through a little
bit more in YouTube comments, like

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: on,

[Ian Landsman]: I think it's fair.

[Aaron]: you know, on Twitter, especially on
Twitter main and mostly in Twitter replies

[Aaron]: I'm like trying to be very gracious
and kind to people on YouTube when they bring

[Aaron]: in the barbs. I just, I barb them right
back

[Ian Landsman]: Hahaha

[Aaron]: and it's kind of fun. It's kind of
fun to be spicy over there.

[Ian Landsman]: Sort of like a private area
down there, you know, it's like a it's

[Aaron]: Oh

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: oh, it's you're down

[Aaron]: nobody's

[Ian Landsman]: in the trenches

[Aaron]: going down

[Ian Landsman]: in there

[Aaron]: there.

[Ian Landsman]: right I also love that in this
video about PHP and technology and code like

[Ian Landsman]: the number one I guess you pinned
it but it's

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: like

[Aaron]: pinned

[Ian Landsman]: funny

[Aaron]: it,

[Ian Landsman]: that's

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: pinned that the loop of comment
about the movie loopers kind

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: of the top here It's so funny

[Aaron]: I did a little review of what was happening
in 2012 and the movie Looper was in theaters

[Aaron]: and I was like, this is a good movie.
And a lot of people,

[Ian Landsman]: Hehehehehehe

[Aaron]: a lot of people commented and said
they can't trust me because I thought Looper

[Aaron]: was good. So.

[Ian Landsman]: I am definitely on the side
of like PHP was never bad. Like it's kind of

[Ian Landsman]: funny because

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: as you were going through there,
I'm like all this stuff is really cool. And

[Ian Landsman]: for people who are, you know,
need these things, whatever's great. But I

[Ian Landsman]: was like the old way, like I'm
like 95%. I was like the old way, that was

[Ian Landsman]: fine. Like I kind of liked the
way it was before too. Like that worked for

[Ian Landsman]: me. Right, right.

[Aaron]: That's my secret is I never thought
it sucked either and I still don't use a lot

[Aaron]: of the features that I talked about,
like

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: annotations or attributes and all this
strict typing and stuff. It's like, I don't

[Aaron]: really care about that and I love the
PHP of yesteryear. And this is another thing,

[Aaron]: this video is not for my traditional
audience on Twitter. My audience

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: on Twitter is Laravel developers. This
is basically... an outreach video and

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I feel like the audience on YouTube
is so much bigger and the

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: algorithm does so much work on your
behalf that it doesn't really matter who is

[Aaron]: directly following you. You're making
a video for kind of the masses and so it is

[Aaron]: a little different for me because I'm
thinking like, you know, I'm talking to all

[Aaron]: of our friends. and like, why would
I make a video like this for all of our friends?

[Aaron]: But

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: it's YouTube, it's not for our friends.
So yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: it's been interesting.

[Ian Landsman]: I had a discussion with somebody
kind of recently about this idea, too. And

[Ian Landsman]: I think that is like one of
the keys of YouTube. Like the point of being

[Ian Landsman]: on there in some ways is to
reach this new group of people who are not

[Aaron]: Yes.

[Ian Landsman]: on traditional Laravel tech,
your PHP channels of Twitter. You know, it's

[Ian Landsman]: like, yeah, just everything.
that silo is only a certain size and obviously

[Ian Landsman]: Twitter

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: just has its own issues on top
of all that. So it's like the YouTube is so

[Ian Landsman]: much bigger than Twitter, way,

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: way

[Aaron]: much

[Ian Landsman]: bigger.

[Aaron]: bigger.

[Ian Landsman]: And

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: the algorithm is I think pretty
good at surfacing stuff. I mean, sometimes

[Ian Landsman]: we're bad, but like overall,
like I think it actually does a pretty good

[Ian Landsman]: job of like

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: surfacing things people are
interested in. And so yeah, this gives you

[Ian Landsman]: that opportunity to reach out
to other types of developers or unbelievably

[Ian Landsman]: the PHP developers who are not,
you know, on Twitter following Taylor and Laravel.

[Aaron]: I know,

[Ian Landsman]: Like

[Aaron]: can

[Ian Landsman]: if

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: you could

[Aaron]: imagine?

[Ian Landsman]: believe there are people out
there like that.

[Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: Um,

[Aaron]: I know,

[Ian Landsman]: it is remarkable,

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: but.

[Aaron]: that is crazy to me, that there's a
whole set of the community, the PHP community

[Aaron]: that like is not on Twitter at all
talking

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: about Folio and Volt all day long.
They're like, I have

[Ian Landsman]: I know.

[Aaron]: no idea what you're talking about,
man. Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: And

[Aaron]: it's

[Ian Landsman]: we see,

[Aaron]: crazy.

[Ian Landsman]: I see this a lot in, I mean,
this isn't even a great example, but on Lara

[Ian Landsman]: jobs, we see it a lot. It's
like, oh, there's

[Aaron]: Mm.

[Ian Landsman]: companies posting that are not
like in the Laravel circle. And that's very

[Ian Landsman]: Laravel, obviously specific.
It's Lara jobs. But that's like one of the

[Ian Landsman]: areas I'm trying to do more
of even with Lara jobs, like reach out to other

[Ian Landsman]: segments of the PHP

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: world since it's really like
a PHP job board essentially. And because it's

[Ian Landsman]: just this huge world of PHP.
It's like when I look at other job boards,

[Ian Landsman]: even the more general ones,
like a dice.com or whatever, and there's like

[Ian Landsman]: all these companies posting,
you know, Laravel jobs even who

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: are like, do nothing in the
Laravel world, like Disney or whatever, like

[Ian Landsman]: Disney hasn't sponsored LaraCon
or, um, they've never posted a job on Lara

[Ian Landsman]: jobs, but they have like

[Aaron]: Right.

[Ian Landsman]: 10 jobs on dice.com for Laravel
developers.

[Aaron]: Yep. Hmm,

[Ian Landsman]: It was this like whole

[Aaron]: interesting.

[Ian Landsman]: world of PHP and Laravel that's
people just going to work every day and. doing

[Ian Landsman]: their job and leaving and they're
not, you know, that closely following what's

[Ian Landsman]: going on necessarily, um, in
the kind of more close knit community that

[Aaron]: just

[Ian Landsman]: we tend

[Aaron]: doing

[Ian Landsman]: to operate

[Aaron]: their job

[Ian Landsman]: in.

[Aaron]: and going

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: home. They're not

[Ian Landsman]: Can

[Aaron]: wired

[Ian Landsman]: you believe

[Aaron]: in.

[Ian Landsman]: it?

[Aaron]: I,

[Ian Landsman]: That's

[Aaron]: it sounds,

[Ian Landsman]: crazy. They're not checking
Twitter 24 hours a day for the latest

[Aaron]: they must be

[Ian Landsman]: updates.

[Aaron]: happy. It couldn't

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: be me, no way.

[Ian Landsman]: No way. I don't want any part
of that.

[Aaron]: No way. The video also got, it got
reacted to. Did you see

[Ian Landsman]: Hmm.

[Aaron]: this?

[Ian Landsman]: No, I don't think I saw this.

[Aaron]: There's a popular YouTuber slash Twitch
streamer called

[Ian Landsman]: Oh,

[Aaron]: The

[Ian Landsman]: wow.

[Aaron]: PrimaGen. And he did a react video
where he watches my video on stream and reacts

[Aaron]: to

[Ian Landsman]: Ha

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: ha ha.

[Aaron]: And I'm like, I'm, I'm so many levels
deep into YouTube culture

[Ian Landsman]: That is

[Aaron]: now

[Ian Landsman]: awesome,

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: that

[Aaron]: he's

[Ian Landsman]: is

[Aaron]: doing that.

[Ian Landsman]: great,

[Aaron]: Um,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: and it, so my video got a hundred thousand
views. His video got a hundred thousand views.

[Ian Landsman]: Wow. So your

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: video has kind of been seen
200,000 times

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: right there.

[Aaron]: that's what I'm saying. So it was really,
really good. So Primogen has a very strong

[Aaron]: personality and a very strong

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: brand. um, and that turns a lot of
people off, but he is an absolute, like he's

[Aaron]: a wonderful, wonderful person.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And he, uh, we actually DMs before
he did the react video. Cause I feel like some

[Aaron]: people seeing that would be like, I
can't believe this guy just watched your video

[Aaron]: and put himself in the corner and,
you know, claim that

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: as his own content. Like one, that's
not what he did. Like he's one of the smartest

[Aaron]: people that I've seen on YouTube. And
two,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: he asked me beforehand. And honestly,
like he was doing me a favor because

[Ian Landsman]: Right,

[Aaron]: he's got like

[Ian Landsman]: yeah.

[Aaron]: a hundred and fifty thousand subscribers
on YouTube

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: And then he's got a hundred thousand
followers on Twitter And he's tweeting about

[Aaron]: my video and it just it was like a
whole day of just feeling like what is happening?

[Aaron]: Cuz you know I record these videos
and then it takes me forever to edit and then

[Aaron]: I finally upload it and I've already
Lost all the like oh, this is a great video

[Aaron]: It's like I gotta get this freaking
thing off my plate

[Ian Landsman]: All right. I'm sick

[Aaron]: and then

[Ian Landsman]: of this

[Aaron]: it

[Ian Landsman]: thing.

[Aaron]: does well and it's like This

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: is

[Ian Landsman]: that's

[Aaron]: so cool!

[Ian Landsman]: awesome. It's so

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: great

[Aaron]: that

[Ian Landsman]: when that

[Aaron]: was

[Ian Landsman]: happens.

[Aaron]: a fun week, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, that's a, and yeah, like
what he's doing there, he's like adding a lot

[Ian Landsman]: of value, so he's not just like
reposting your video he's,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you know, you know, adding to
it for his audience and what they want to see

[Ian Landsman]: and, um, adding kind of value
there, so, and

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, obviously

[Aaron]: he's really

[Ian Landsman]: exposing

[Aaron]: good. Like

[Ian Landsman]: you.

[Aaron]: one of the things he's really good
at is like, he knows so many languages. He's

[Aaron]: an engineer at Netflix, and so he's
worked

[Ian Landsman]: Okay.

[Aaron]: in a bunch of different places.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: He knows so many languages that he
can look at all these things that I'm running

[Aaron]: through. And he's like, oh, this is
kind of how C Sharp does it. Oh, well in JavaScript,

[Aaron]: it's done this way, and I hate that,
and I really like that PHP does this. And he

[Aaron]: can compare it across

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: a whole bunch of languages where I...
I just can't do that.

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: Like I've never worked in C sharp.
I don't know what C sharp is.

[Ian Landsman]: So is he not, he hasn't used
PHP much then it sounds like? So he's

[Aaron]: No, not since the era that

[Ian Landsman]: the old

[Aaron]: I talked

[Ian Landsman]: days,

[Aaron]: about.

[Ian Landsman]: okay.

[Aaron]: Yeah, and so

[Ian Landsman]: Oh, so

[Aaron]: it

[Ian Landsman]: he's

[Aaron]: was

[Ian Landsman]: perfect

[Aaron]: really cool

[Ian Landsman]: for

[Aaron]: because

[Ian Landsman]: it, yeah.

[Aaron]: he started the video and he was like,
I feel like he's talking exactly about me.

[Aaron]: I came up

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: on PHP

[Ian Landsman]: Ahem.

[Aaron]: and then I've never used it. And so
there were some things that he genuinely liked.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: So I'm really happy about how that
went.

[Ian Landsman]: So what's the next video in
this series?

[Aaron]: Yeah, so I've got a few that I'm thinking
of.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: Um, and I think there are, you know,
I get a lot of the ideas for like, what's next

[Aaron]: from the comments on, on these videos.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: And, you know, I have a bunch of my
own ideas, but it is nice to see what are people

[Aaron]: continually, continually surfacing.
Um, and so I think a few that I have in mind

[Aaron]: is, um, I want to do for, for the super
type heavy people, I want to do generics in

[Aaron]: PHP. One,

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: I got to learn how to even do that.
But I

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: do want to show that like, we have
further typing than is available in the language

[Aaron]: itself.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: Basically, and you know, you always
have to think of like, what's the angle? And

[Aaron]: I think the angle here is like, TypeScript
for PHP almost, because it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: we're using PHP, but we're putting
this layer on top and...

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: in the same way that you're using JavaScript
and you're putting a layer on top. So I got

[Aaron]: to figure out like the catchy angle
there.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And then I want to do

[Ian Landsman]: Ahem.

[Aaron]: I want to do a Laravel is faster than
next JS video.

[Ian Landsman]: Ooh, that'll be a good one.

[Aaron]: I know spicy

[Ian Landsman]: That's

[Aaron]: right.

[Ian Landsman]: a good one. Yeah, that's

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: a

[Aaron]: I

[Ian Landsman]: spicy

[Aaron]: got to figure

[Ian Landsman]: one.

[Aaron]: out I'm having Steve just Steve King
on Twitter.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm

[Aaron]: Steve McDougall I think is his name
but his handles just Steve King. He's going

[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker. container.
I don't know anything about Docker. He's going

[Aaron]: to help me set up a Docker container
that has the Next.js app and a Laravel app

[Aaron]: with Octane. And I'm going

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: to load test and see if the Laravel
one is faster. I super hope that it is because

[Aaron]: that would be

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.

[Aaron]: an amazing video that would make a
lot of Next fans really mad and a lot of Laravel

[Aaron]: people really happy. And then the last
one I have on actually two more. I've got Livewire

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: SPA mode. So like I want to show that
you can create a single page app with just

[Aaron]: PHP, obviously it's Livewire JavaScript,
but you know, the angle is SBA with PHP and

[Aaron]: then I'm having Boris Lepkin help me
set up a repo where I can do end to end strict

[Aaron]: typing with Laravel inertia and view.

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: And I can have all of that. like TypeScript
all the way through. Cause people are

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: always like, well, I'd never switched
to PHP because I love type end to end type

[Aaron]: safety. And

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: like one, that's a red herring. That's
dumb. That's a bad reason to stay with JavaScript

[Aaron]: on the back end. And two, you can have
that. You can have that in Laravel. So those

[Aaron]: are my videos. I got to think of catchy
angles and spicy titles and stuff.

[Ian Landsman]: I like it. I really liked the
Livewire one too. I feel like Livewire is part

[Ian Landsman]: of it is it's like a pretty
complicated thing to explain, you know, cause

[Ian Landsman]: it's like this, it's just not
like anything else. You know, it's like, it's

[Ian Landsman]: not

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: like React. It's not like Vue,
like it does what they do in the end, but it's

[Ian Landsman]: nothing like them and how you
use it. So like, I do feel like it's just any

[Ian Landsman]: kind of exposure or ways to
like, get people

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: to understand how valuable it
is and how faster it can make you. once you

[Ian Landsman]: really kind of understand what
it's trying to do is, uh, is would be really

[Ian Landsman]: great. So again, reach that
other, that other audience that's not in the

[Ian Landsman]: super core. That's like, oh
yeah, we know already about livewire.larribelle.com

[Aaron]: Exactly.

[Ian Landsman]: and it's up there in version

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: three and blah, blah. Like,
and I think too, it's kind of become, I feel

[Ian Landsman]: like version three is like,
it's ready for prime time now. So I'd be great

[Ian Landsman]: to see more people making videos
and all that stuff about it too, just because

[Ian Landsman]: it's kind of matured to this
level where it's really ready to take on. You

[Aaron]: Yep,

[Ian Landsman]: know, serious,

[Aaron]: I agree.

[Ian Landsman]: serious work, quote unquote.

[Aaron]: Yeah, and I think with the version
three release, they did a lot of stuff that

[Aaron]: makes it more usable. Like this whole
SPA mode thing is really cool. And Jason

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Beggs did a tutorial slash demo for
Laravel News showing like a podcast player.

[Aaron]: And I think the whole shtick is like,
it keeps playing even when you switch pages,

[Aaron]: which

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: is like the hallmark of SPA thing,
SPA demo. And so I may just use that. Um, as

[Aaron]: my,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: as my example, because yeah, I feel
like even, even in LiveWire land, like you've

[Aaron]: got Hotwire, you've got Stimulus, you've
got Phoenix live view, you've got HTMX, all

[Aaron]: of those are kind of like HTML over
the wire domdiffing. Um,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: but I think LiveWire is even, I would
say better, but definitely different than all

[Aaron]: of those in that one, PHP dies. Like
you have to build the whole universe on every

[Aaron]: request.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: And so like with Ruby, you've got this
server that's continually running, and are

[Aaron]: you keeping state around back there?
I don't super know, but with LiveWire, it's

[Aaron]: like, no, we gotta send everything
back and forth all the time. And one of the

[Aaron]: complaints about LiveWire on the video
that I did was like, oh, so how many connections

[Aaron]: do you have to keep open all the time
to send the data back and forth? And you're

[Aaron]: like, none.

[Ian Landsman]: Right?

[Aaron]: You don't leave stuff open with PHP.
Everything dies, and you recreate the universe

[Aaron]: every time.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: So I do think there's a fundamental
disparity between what people think is happening

[Aaron]: and what is actually happening.

[Ian Landsman]: Right. And just like that, that's
even like, um, it's PHP's way of doing it has

[Ian Landsman]: become more and more viable
over time, right? It's like, oh, that was kind

[Ian Landsman]: of a stupid way to do it. Maybe
you can make the case way back in the day because

[Ian Landsman]: like the computers weren't that
fast and the network wasn't that fast. And

[Ian Landsman]: like you're sending stuff back
and forth and you're setting up the whole world

[Ian Landsman]: every time and everything. But
now it's like everything's so fast. It's like,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, and it's great. I could
just reset it up every time. And that does

[Ian Landsman]: solve a lot of, you know, it
creates other problems, but it does solve a

[Ian Landsman]: nice set of problems too. And.
Yeah, yeah, how LiveWire does all that. I mean,

[Ian Landsman]: the stuff LiveWire does to make
this all work is sort of nuts. But, uh, it's

[Ian Landsman]: so nice to rebuild everything.
So now it's like really, you know, cause when

[Ian Landsman]: you first build something the
first time, you don't really understand what

[Ian Landsman]: it's even going to be. And to
rebuild it with that understanding, I think

[Ian Landsman]: has made a ton of really huge
improvements and how it all works.

[Aaron]: Yeah, and on that PHP lifecycle model,
we got really lucky that PHP is basically tailor-made

[Aaron]: for serverless environments. Because
it's like,

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: it runs one thing stateless, and then
it dies.

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: And it's

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: like,

[Ian Landsman]: It's perfect for

[Aaron]: oh,

[Ian Landsman]: serverless. Yup.

[Aaron]: you're describing PHP. Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: It was a big change. I started
in, um, cold fusion. And ColdFusion had a server

[Ian Landsman]: which you could store state
in there and other stuff.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: You could do all kinds of things.
And then I started doing some PHP and I was

[Ian Landsman]: like, Oh, like this doesn't
do anything at all for me.

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And then also it was like pre
frameworks. Essentially there was a couple

[Ian Landsman]: of like very rudimentary frameworks.
And so it was like, there's nothing at all

[Ian Landsman]: here, but okay, we'll do this.
And, uh, yeah, but now it's obviously with

[Ian Landsman]: Laravel and just the whole state
of everything that's going on with servers.

[Ian Landsman]: It's, uh, it's so much nicer.
And. Um, and yes, the hosting situation and

[Ian Landsman]: server lists

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: and all the options we have
now changes all that a lot. Um, but yeah, and

[Ian Landsman]: even live wire, like what he's
done in version three, where it's like bundling

[Ian Landsman]: requests and things like that.
So like even

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: wire concerns that, you know,
you weren't holding them open, but it was having

[Ian Landsman]: to call back and forth a lot.
If you had a bunch of components and things

[Ian Landsman]: like now it's just all bundled
together, so that's all way more efficient

[Ian Landsman]: and yeah, it's, it's really
pretty advanced now.

[Aaron]: Yeah. Good job, Caleb. Way to go.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, love Caleb. He's the man.

[Aaron]: Well, we've been mostly technical.
Do you wanna go back to non-technical for a

[Aaron]: second?

[Ian Landsman]: Sure, sure.

[Aaron]: We give

[Ian Landsman]: What

[Aaron]: the

[Ian Landsman]: do

[Aaron]: technical

[Ian Landsman]: you got for me?

[Aaron]: people a break. Are you hiring someone
to create family photo books?

[Ian Landsman]: Family photo books. Yes. So
this is

[Aaron]: Okay

[Ian Landsman]: my

[Aaron]: so I saw this on Twitter and I thought

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: Ian is a galaxy brain. Like

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I knew you were like a planet brain
but this is galaxy brain.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. So this is the thing I,
I used to be super into photography and I've

[Ian Landsman]: gotten, I've dialed it back
a little bit here, especially as the kids have

[Ian Landsman]: gotten older and they're just
like, get that camera out of my face, you know,

[Ian Landsman]: but whatever. When they're little,
like, it's awesome. Like, so I'd be, I'd always

[Ian Landsman]: have the fancy camera. I'm taking
pictures of the kids. And then I'm taking pictures

[Ian Landsman]: of just other sorts of things,
nature and whatnot. And then, um, So I'd always

[Ian Landsman]: make these photo books. I'd
have all these photos, I'd spend the time,

[Ian Landsman]: I'd get them all edited, all
nice, and make books, and blah, blah. But then

[Ian Landsman]: just recently, kids are bigger,
like we talked about at the beginning, it's

[Ian Landsman]: just like they have so much
stuff going on, they're running around all

[Ian Landsman]: the time, work's busy, doing
podcasts, like all this

[Aaron]: Hehehehe

[Ian Landsman]: stuff. There's just not time
to make the photo books. And it's kind of funny,

[Ian Landsman]: so we did this, the vacation
I'm on right now with the people I'm on right

[Ian Landsman]: now, we did this a year ago
to a different place. And I was like, all right,

[Ian Landsman]: I'll make the photo book.

[Aaron]: Hehehe

[Ian Landsman]: And I did not, I still have
not done the photo book. The photo book is

[Ian Landsman]: not done from a year ago.

[Aaron]: You

[Ian Landsman]: We

[Aaron]: never,

[Ian Landsman]: are now

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: on the

[Aaron]: never

[Ian Landsman]: second

[Aaron]: volunteer.

[Ian Landsman]: vacation.

[Aaron]: You never volunteer for that kind of
stuff.

[Ian Landsman]: So now we're on the second vacation.
I still haven't done the photo book from the

[Ian Landsman]: first vacation. And so I have,
you know, I have other trips and things that

[Ian Landsman]: I would want to do little books
for. Um, I just have this huge backlog of photo

[Ian Landsman]: books. So yeah, it just struck
me one day, like a week or two back there.

[Ian Landsman]: And I was like, I can outsource
the creation of these photo books. Like I'm

[Ian Landsman]: not

[Aaron]: Yes!

[Ian Landsman]: doing anything. Especially because
these are not like at this point more like

[Ian Landsman]: artistic photos where I felt
like Back in the day. I was more like creating

[Ian Landsman]: the art like I

[Aaron]: Sure.

[Ian Landsman]: might have a black and white
photo of a certain scene And like I want it

[Ian Landsman]: to be a certain way. This is
like me on my iphone snapping pictures

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: like just pick the smileiest
one and Edit it up to fit in the right box

[Ian Landsman]: in the page and throw that stuff
together and make me a photo book so it seems

[Ian Landsman]: like pretty much anybody could
handle this like um without and it'll be fine,

[Ian Landsman]: right? It'll be fine. It'll
be a nice little photo book to have on the

[Ian Landsman]: shelf. And the kids always love
the photo books. Like we have this big pile

[Ian Landsman]: of photo books from all of our
trips and they go through them and whatever.

[Ian Landsman]: So that's my plan. I don't know.
I did

[Aaron]: Has

[Ian Landsman]: a little

[Aaron]: it worked?

[Ian Landsman]: bit of research,

[Aaron]: So you said it

[Ian Landsman]: though

[Aaron]: sounds

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: like

[Ian Landsman]: haven't done

[Aaron]: anybody

[Ian Landsman]: it.

[Aaron]: can do it. Has anybody been able to
do it?

[Ian Landsman]: Nobody's done it yet. So I've

[Aaron]: Where

[Ian Landsman]: looked

[Aaron]: are

[Ian Landsman]: through,

[Aaron]: you looking?

[Ian Landsman]: I don't know. So since that
tweet where I said that, I have not really

[Ian Landsman]: had time to then delve too much
farther. I went into Upwork. There are people

[Ian Landsman]: who sort of claim to do it,
but then it's a little bit not clear what they

[Ian Landsman]: actually are providing. There's
some who are doing it like only for weddings,

[Ian Landsman]: which is not

[Aaron]: Mmm,

[Ian Landsman]: really the right thing because
they're gonna wanna

[Aaron]: too expensive,

[Ian Landsman]: charge a ton

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: of money and do like a fancy
book, which is not what this is. So I'm. If

[Ian Landsman]: anybody out there knows of,
um, either a service that does this or even

[Ian Landsman]: just like photo editing services
or things like that, cause I obviously there's

[Ian Landsman]: like upwork, but I didn't love
the

[Aaron]: Or like

[Ian Landsman]: options

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: there.

[Aaron]: stay at home parent who knows how to
use

[Ian Landsman]: I

[Aaron]: a

[Ian Landsman]: mean,

[Aaron]: computer.

[Ian Landsman]: that would be

[Aaron]: That's

[Ian Landsman]: fine

[Aaron]: basically

[Ian Landsman]: too.

[Aaron]: what

[Ian Landsman]: Like

[Aaron]: you need.

[Ian Landsman]: if you're out there and just
wanna do this for me, like I'm also totally

[Ian Landsman]: fine with that. Like we can.

[Aaron]: Yeah, is your husband or wife a functioning
adult and can use a computer?

[Ian Landsman]: and wants to

[Aaron]: Contact

[Ian Landsman]: do this. Yeah.

[Aaron]: Ian.

[Ian Landsman]: I mean, that's totally, I'm
totally on board with that. Maybe this is the

[Ian Landsman]: SaaS we should be building.
Maybe that's what'll come out of this podcast.

[Ian Landsman]: We'll build the

[Aaron]: Yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: photo book creation service
SaaS app. But, right.

[Aaron]: yeah. Yeah, we could make tens of dollars
that way,

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: I think. Ha ha ha.

[Ian Landsman]: But it's like, if there was
just like a site and I don't want to build

[Ian Landsman]: this, but if it was just like
a service that does this, that's like a hundred

[Ian Landsman]: bucks a book, like they

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: would just already have like
three books for me, like just done. even 150

[Ian Landsman]: bucks

[Aaron]: I agree.

[Ian Landsman]: a book, like whatever. Like

[Aaron]: I fully agree.

[Ian Landsman]: I would just pay the money.
I don't wanna think about it. I wanna upload

[Ian Landsman]: my thousand pictures from my
trip to Europe and my 200 pictures from the

[Ian Landsman]: last vacation we all had. And
I just wanna pay somebody 100, 200 bucks even,

[Ian Landsman]: and just be like, oh, and a
book shows up on my doorstep and it's done,

[Ian Landsman]: it's great. So yeah, if anybody
knows about that service already existing or

[Ian Landsman]: wants to do it, let me know.
And then we'll see how that goes. But. Otherwise

[Ian Landsman]: I do plan after vacation on
getting, uh, on making that happen. And now

[Ian Landsman]: since it's in the podcast, it's
going to have to happen. So at least we will

[Ian Landsman]: try it. We will have results.
We could

[Aaron]: Yeah, if

[Ian Landsman]: talk

[Aaron]: you're

[Ian Landsman]: about

[Aaron]: listening

[Ian Landsman]: the results.

[Aaron]: to this, if you're listening to this
and it's August of 2024, make sure you send

[Aaron]: us an email to see if Ian ever got
his vacation book made. So check in with us

[Aaron]: in one year to make sure Ian

[Ian Landsman]: Oh,

[Aaron]: got

[Ian Landsman]: yeah,

[Aaron]: his book made.

[Ian Landsman]: August 2025, we'll be doing
this podcast. I'll be like, up. I'm on vacation

[Ian Landsman]: with everybody again. Now I'm
two vacation books behind.

[Aaron]: Yeah. So I hired somebody a while back
to do 3D rendering of, I was going to add a

[Aaron]: back deck to connect the shed quarters,
my old studio to my house. And there's

[Ian Landsman]: Mm-hmm.

[Aaron]: this giant gap in the middle. And I
hired somebody on, I think it was Upwork? No,

[Aaron]: I think it was Fiverr actually.

[Ian Landsman]: Mmm.

[Aaron]: I took a bunch of pictures, did a few
dimensions, and hired an outdoor deck designer

[Aaron]: in Turkey to do 3D renderings of what
a deck could

[Ian Landsman]: Holy cow.

[Aaron]: look like. Yeah, and it was like $65.
And

[Ian Landsman]: Wow.

[Aaron]: so then, was it perfect? No, but I
could then go to a local contractor and instead

[Aaron]: of like... trying to explain something
to someone who's barely listening to me,

[Ian Landsman]: Right.

[Aaron]: I could show him a picture and be like,
I basically want

[Ian Landsman]: Build

[Aaron]: this.

[Ian Landsman]: this.

[Aaron]: Yeah. And he's like, okay, I could
build that. And I thought that is a total like,

[Aaron]: that's a totally good use of money
to spend $65 to be able to communicate clearly

[Aaron]: what I want. And I went back and forth

[Ian Landsman]: That

[Aaron]: with

[Ian Landsman]: was

[Aaron]: the guy

[Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: on a few revisions, because on the
first one, he did some weird stuff with pergolas.

[Aaron]: And I was like, I don't want that,
like remove

[Ian Landsman]: Mm.

[Aaron]: that change this. And then I had the
thing to show the guy. And so finding these

[Aaron]: things that you can outsource that
you don't really think you can

[Ian Landsman]: I just love

[Aaron]: outsource,

[Ian Landsman]: outsourcing.

[Aaron]: yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah, I gotta get better about
that. I'm really pretty bad about outsourcing

[Ian Landsman]: and stuff like that. And it's
like, I should just outsource this. Why am

[Ian Landsman]: I not outsourcing more stuff?
It's like, we actually found this service here

[Ian Landsman]: kind of along those lines where
it's like, they will come and set up. So you

[Ian Landsman]: can't leave like a tent or anything
on the beach overnight.

[Aaron]: Oh, yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: And there's like 13 of us and
whatever, and the kids and whatever, son and

[Ian Landsman]: all that stuff. So we kinda
want a tent. So they just come every day and

[Ian Landsman]: they set

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: up the tent. and they bring
chairs and they put it out there. And then

[Ian Landsman]: every night they come and they
take down a tent and they take away the chairs

[Ian Landsman]: and they just do it every night.
And it's fabulous. And that also led me to

[Ian Landsman]: the discovery of another app
which I'm just gonna tell everybody about as

[Ian Landsman]: public service called Splitwise.
Have you ever used Splitwise?

[Aaron]: live, live and die by Splitwise.

[Ian Landsman]: You love the Splitwise, I didn't
even

[Aaron]: Love,

[Ian Landsman]: know about Splitwise.

[Aaron]: love

[Ian Landsman]: It's unbelievable.

[Aaron]: Splitwise.

[Ian Landsman]: Everything

[Aaron]: I've

[Ian Landsman]: you buy

[Aaron]: been

[Ian Landsman]: is.

[Aaron]: using Splitwise since 2009. It's amazing,

[Ian Landsman]: Wow, is

[Aaron]: yes.

[Ian Landsman]: it around that long? I didn't

[Aaron]: It

[Ian Landsman]: even

[Aaron]: is,

[Ian Landsman]: know that.

[Aaron]: yes.

[Ian Landsman]: Wow. So maybe everybody knows
about this already, but Splitwise lets you

[Ian Landsman]: just split bills with other
people. And like, so you can just, every time

[Ian Landsman]: you buy something, you throw
it in Splitwise and it'll handle like, like

[Ian Landsman]: in our case, we're pretty much
dividing everything by thirds, just divides

[Ian Landsman]: it by thirds. And then at the
end it tracks who owes who what and you can

[Ian Landsman]: settle up and that's it. And...
It's unbelievable. This is like one of the

[Ian Landsman]: first

[Aaron]: Okay,

[Ian Landsman]: mobile apps that's blown my
mind in a while.

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: Like, it's like, oh, this is
fabulous.

[Aaron]: we gotta talk splitwise. So, splitwise
is truly one of the OG apps that does the thing

[Aaron]: it's supposed to do and doesn't muck
it up. And so what I love about splitwise,

[Aaron]: so we do these yearly trips, all of
our guy friends from college, and what I love

[Aaron]: about splitwise is, As long as you
accurately represent the truth in Splitwise,

[Aaron]: everything comes out just fine. So
what I mean is, you can say like, okay, I,

[Aaron]: Aaron, I'm going to the grocery store
for, you know, these 10 guys for the weekend

[Aaron]: and I'm going to spend, you know, $1,000
to buy all the groceries for this weekend,

[Aaron]: right? I put $1,000 into Splitwise
and I say split evenly. And it just like, it

[Aaron]: splits it evenly. Okay. Whatever, that
seems normal, right? But then let's say I get

[Aaron]: there early and I go to dinner with
four other guys and we go out for pizza, right?

[Aaron]: And one guy pays for all the pizza.
And he says, okay, I, let's say Andrew, paid

[Aaron]: for all the pizza, but only these five
people were there. So I'm gonna split it between

[Aaron]: these five people. And then let's say
there are three people on the trip that don't

[Aaron]: drink, so we split the alcohol between
seven people. And then let's say I buy Ian

[Aaron]: lunch, so it's just like a one-on-one
transaction. As long as you put all of that

[Aaron]: into Splitwise and you say there's
a tab to say simplify debt. So like if I owe

[Aaron]: Ian $5 and Ian owes Andrew $5, I'm
just gonna pay Andrew and Splitwise will handle

[Aaron]: that for you. At the end, it just comes
out to be like, you put everything in there

[Aaron]: and it just says, Aaron, you owe Andrew
$42. And you're like, all right, sounds like.

[Aaron]: Sounds fine to me, and it takes into
account everything you paid for, everything

[Aaron]: you participated in, and like it doesn't
add you to things that you weren't a part of,

[Aaron]: and at the end you pay one single person
and then you move on about your day. It's the

[Aaron]: best thing in

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: the world.

[Ian Landsman]: totally mind blowing, mind

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: blowing. It's so good. Yes,
you said it perfectly. Like it doesn't muck

[Ian Landsman]: it up. It's like, it does this.
It's not trying to sell me a bunch of other

[Ian Landsman]: stuff while I'm in there adding,
you know, these entries. It's just like, nope,

[Ian Landsman]: add your entries at the top.
It's got like this running total. It's like,

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: you've loaned out a thousand
dollars so far.

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: And it's like, yes, I'm making
money on this vacation.

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: People are gonna pay me a thousand
dollars at the end of this vacation. It's so

[Ian Landsman]: great.

[Aaron]: Yep,

[Ian Landsman]: Everything

[Aaron]: yeah, and

[Ian Landsman]: costs

[Aaron]: that's

[Ian Landsman]: a third less.

[Aaron]: That's great because then you're at
the next dinner and you can be like well it

[Aaron]: looks like It looks like I'm a thousand
dollars behind so somebody else should pay

[Aaron]: for dinner So then at the end of the
trip, you know, you're as close to even as

[Aaron]: possible And so your person-to-person

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: transactions are a lot smaller. Yeah,
it's oh man

[Ian Landsman]: It

[Aaron]: What

[Ian Landsman]: hooks

[Aaron]: a what

[Ian Landsman]: into

[Aaron]: an

[Ian Landsman]: Venmo.

[Aaron]: unexpected surprise to

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah,

[Aaron]: talk about

[Ian Landsman]: like,

[Aaron]: split wise

[Ian Landsman]: oh, it's so good. It just, just
to have a uni-tasker app like that, that just

[Ian Landsman]: is executed so perfectly. That's
something I never built either. I always have

[Ian Landsman]: these like big complicated things.

[Aaron]: I know.

[Ian Landsman]: Just a nice uni-tasker app.
It just does, it just down in the little nitty

[Ian Landsman]: gritty details of that single
task so deeply. Oh, just excellent. Love

[Aaron]: I'm pulling

[Ian Landsman]: it.

[Aaron]: up my Splitwise right now so I can
see

[Ian Landsman]: Oh,

[Aaron]: all

[Ian Landsman]: there

[Aaron]: the groups

[Ian Landsman]: you go. Yup.

[Aaron]: that I have.

[Ian Landsman]: Oh wow, you have

[Aaron]: I've

[Ian Landsman]: a bunch

[Aaron]: got,

[Ian Landsman]: of different groups. That's
interesting.

[Aaron]: oh yeah, I've got, I don't know if
the camera

[Ian Landsman]: Oh wow,

[Aaron]: will pick it up.

[Ian Landsman]: yeah, OG

[Aaron]: So

[Ian Landsman]: status

[Aaron]: we've got

[Ian Landsman]: here.

[Aaron]: SF15, 16, 17, those are all the guide
trips. And then we've got a Florida trip, we've

[Aaron]: got a 30th birthday trip, we've got
a wedding weekend. Yeah, it's, I love

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: it.

[Ian Landsman]: a revolution.

[Aaron]: It's so great.

[Ian Landsman]: My mind has been totally blown.
Like, yeah, none of us in our group really

[Ian Landsman]: knew about it. So my cousin
went to a bachelor party.

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm

[Ian Landsman]: Like six months ago or something.
And like, they just did it where the one guy

[Ian Landsman]: paid for everything. Nobody
paid

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: for anything though. The leader
paid for every single transaction. You know,

[Ian Landsman]: he got all the points, which
I think was probably part of his

[Aaron]: Yep.

[Ian Landsman]: goal, which is great.

[Aaron]: That guy.

[Ian Landsman]: And then,

[Aaron]: That

[Ian Landsman]: um,

[Aaron]: freaking

[Ian Landsman]: that

[Aaron]: guy.

[Ian Landsman]: guy, and then, uh, And then
they just split it up and they just all paid

[Ian Landsman]: him the amounts they

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: owed. And that was it. It was
like so easy. So then we use it for this and

[Ian Landsman]: we're all blown away. It's,
it's

[Aaron]: And

[Ian Landsman]: so

[Aaron]: you can

[Ian Landsman]: incredibly

[Aaron]: attach pictures

[Ian Landsman]: nice.

[Aaron]: of a receipt

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah.

[Aaron]: and

[Ian Landsman]: I mean,

[Aaron]: you can,

[Ian Landsman]: we're not

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: doing

[Aaron]: can

[Ian Landsman]: that

[Aaron]: do,

[Ian Landsman]: because we don't care, but like,

[Aaron]: yeah,

[Ian Landsman]: yeah,

[Aaron]: we don't care.

[Ian Landsman]: you could do that for the bigger
group or whatever.

[Aaron]: Yeah. And you can do crazy splitting
things like you can split it evenly. You can

[Aaron]: split it by percent. You can split
it by

[Ian Landsman]: Alright.

[Aaron]: portion. So you can be like, we bought,

[Ian Landsman]: Oh.

[Aaron]: we

[Ian Landsman]: Ha ha ha.

[Aaron]: bought 15 things and actually five
of the things were for this one guy and the

[Aaron]: other 10 were for the other 10 people.
And you can

[Ian Landsman]: Bye.

[Aaron]: say this guy gets five units of proportion

[Ian Landsman]: of

[Aaron]: and this

[Ian Landsman]: the...

[Aaron]: everyone else gets one unit. It's

[Ian Landsman]: Wow.

[Aaron]: like, Why would you ever need that?
I have no idea, but it's so cool.

[Ian Landsman]: I have used one so far. We've
been doing pretty much everything evenly, but

[Ian Landsman]: there has been one where it's
like, yeah, me and my brother just did something.

[Ian Landsman]: My cousin's family wasn't involved.
So it's like, oh, that is just me and him.

[Ian Landsman]: And it's like now it's split
in half between the two of us and not, um,

[Ian Landsman]: with him in it. And it's like
the tally all changes and

[Aaron]: Mm-hmm.

[Ian Landsman]: just blown away. Yeah. I dunno.
I feel like most of the hype around mobile

[Ian Landsman]: apps in general, like my mobile
app usage is almost entirely like native Apple

[Ian Landsman]: apps and like Twitter and maybe
like one or two other things and that's it.

[Ian Landsman]: And. But. This is one of those
ones that's like, yes, this is, this is making

[Ian Landsman]: it in. This is staying on the
phone, uh, because it's just so damn useful

[Ian Landsman]: in those couple times a year
where you need to do this kind of thing.

[Aaron]: What a gem.

[Ian Landsman]: So good.

[Aaron]: A

[Ian Landsman]: Yeah. Look at

[Aaron]: hidden

[Ian Landsman]: that.

[Aaron]: gem there at the end

[Ian Landsman]: Kit.

[Aaron]: of the pod. That's why you always stick
around, folks.

[Ian Landsman]: Think about this, on this one
trip, Waffle House and Splitwise, I've discovered

[Aaron]: You...

[Ian Landsman]: these two things.

[Aaron]: Your

[Ian Landsman]: What

[Aaron]: life,

[Ian Landsman]: a trip.

[Aaron]: your life is... And I discovered trucks!
You can just put a truck on a beach!

[Ian Landsman]: Hey, Chuck

[Aaron]: It's

[Ian Landsman]: on

[Aaron]: amazing!

[Ian Landsman]: a beach. We're learning.

[Aaron]: Yes,

[Ian Landsman]: This is

[Aaron]: this

[Ian Landsman]: unbelievable.

[Aaron]: is why we do this.

[Ian Landsman]: Sharing our knowledge.

[Aaron]: That's right. Alright, anything else?
Where do people find us?

[Ian Landsman]: man, they find us at mostlytechnical.com
and on YouTube. Check out the YouTube, the

[Ian Landsman]: YouTube gets, it's like it's
building up. I'm

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: sort of interested about the
YouTube growth eventually. It's nice to be

[Ian Landsman]: able to see how many subscribers
you have because podcasts, you know,

[Aaron]: Yeah.

[Ian Landsman]: you can't really tell for sure,
but, and then we're at MostlyTechnicalPod on

[Ian Landsman]: Twitter, I believe. So check
that out. We should probably get

[Aaron]: If

[Ian Landsman]: these things down.

[Aaron]: you

[Ian Landsman]: You're

[Aaron]: can find us,

[Ian Landsman]: right.

[Aaron]: find us. If not, we'll see you

[Ian Landsman]: It's

[Aaron]: next

[Ian Landsman]: all linked.

[Aaron]: time.

[Ian Landsman]: Go to the show notes. Thanks.

[Aaron]: All right, talk to you later, Ian.

[Ian Landsman]: Bye.