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Joe runs a company called Boxcar (boxcar.com), he is also a father of 5. We talked about trends in the world today, navigating business shifts, raising our kids in a changing culture. There are many things we can talk about, like the environments where we live and how we feel comfortable managing time and resources to engage in life properly. However, filling the gaps in his company when it comes to running it is something he has learned to do, as many things need improvement, and sometimes there is not enough time to do it.
Intentional fatherhood while living a life of purpose. Hosted by Mike Sudyk. www.2centdad.com
[00:00:00] Joe: I think that, you know, my kids need the best shot at being happy and successful and whatever they want to be for the rest of their life. And like that means that if they're, you know, whatever,
[00:00:13] Mike: welcome to the 2 cent Dad podcast, where we interview dads to discuss their journeys of intentional fatherhood while doing work they care about and living a life of purpose.
[00:00:23] I'm your host, Mike Sudyk.
[00:00:30] Yeah. Had some sick kids and I'm sure you can, I know how it is.
[00:00:33] Joe: Understand that's time of the year. Yeah. You're, um, you guys are homeschooling, is that right? Yeah, we homeschool. Yeah. So cool. That's really, uh, awesome. I love how that's to a, um, it went from like, almost like a, um, oh, like why is that weird?
[00:00:54] Like why are they, uh, why, why are they doing that to like, wow. Like. impressive. Like it [00:01:00] went from this thing that was looked down upon to this thing that was venerated and like that. Yeah. Why
[00:01:05] Mike: do you think that is? Like, what changed about that public perception?
[00:01:09] Joe: Just like everybody had to do it right. And they were like, okay, like this is, uh, if I, you know, if I had to do this, it would be, it, it would be such a decision on my part, um, that it, it would require so much of me.
[00:01:25] And I never really thought about it before, but it's clear that I can teach my kids much faster than the schools are teaching them. Um, and like now, um, so I don't know everybody else who went back to public school like we did, like, you know, we was mm-hmm. Hmm. , well, we we're home from school. Now we're going back.
[00:01:40] We're like, geez. Like, if we had nothing else to do in life, uh, we, we know that we would be able to give our kids a better education right now than they're getting. Yeah. Yeah. Not like you don't have anything else to do, but, uh, . So the ability, the ability to make that, uh, [00:02:00] decisive, like to make that decision to, to choose that you're going to elevate, uh, you know, your children and their education to that level.
[00:02:09] Uh, even with all the sacrifices that it entails, it's um, it's pretty big. Yeah. It's impressive.
[00:02:16] Mike: So when you get that home, that homestead that you've been eyeing, and then are you guys gonna flip to homeschool, just move out into the country? Like, um, like Joe Norman ,
[00:02:24] Joe: uh, right. Possibly. So there's another guy I follow, Adam Rossi.
[00:02:28] I don't know if you see him on, on Twitter. Yeah. Um, but he's like very much ma like, make the money and get out, like make the money and move to the country. Like, money country. Money country. And so he, uh, sold his business. Yeah, he lives out in, got a couple hundred acres and he's like a kid with, uh, like a rector sets and an unlimited budget.
[00:02:49] Yeah. . Yeah. . So yeah, I did, uh, I met Joe Norman through a, he was a teacher in, he was an instructor, like a guest lecturer in that, uh, home study course [00:03:00] that you might have seen. Okay. That I took, yeah. Uh, from Roma Field School. So that's, uh, I've definitely thought, uh, about it enough about moving to the country that I took that course.
[00:03:11] And, uh, we decided best plan was to focus on business, focus on family, and then sharpen skills. So like this year was a big gardening year for us. We finally took it seriously enough to Yeah. You know, learn and, and yield a crop. A little, little miniature tomato crop, things like that.
[00:03:28] Mike: That's cool. Tell me about that course.
[00:03:30] I'm really curious. Can you gimme like the couple
[00:03:32] Joe: minute Oh, it's really cool. Uh, highly recommend that to anyone who's like, thinking about it. You know, she's building this cloud community of people who all. Are coming to it for, uh, you know, different personal reasons, but very similar, like, concerns.
[00:03:45] Everybody's like, huh, like, you know, it doesn't seem like the experts are in charge. Or if they, you know, if the experts, the experts are in charge, like maybe I shouldn't be relying on them. You know, the same people who kind of let things completely hit the [00:04:00] fan and like, send my kids home from school and all these other things that I never would've imagined they would do in a million years.
[00:04:05] Like, they're also saying that my electricity's going to be fine. That, you know, the mm-hmm. , uh, energy production isn't something that I should worry about. And, you know, maybe it would be nice to have a backup plan. So it was really cool in this divided political world to see all of these, there were a lot of like, people on the left, um, a lot of like people who maybe weren't so political and then, like, there were like a lot of like people on the right and they all had the same plan, which was like we should, um, generate, uh, not like build our knowledge base, uh, and build a community.
[00:04:36] And so, . It's really a, like we were in the Inaug inaugural class, I think she's done two other cohorts of it now. Mm-hmm. . But, uh, it was just like really, uh, beneficial and you could see all these people meeting up in real life and that was, you know, the beginnings of taking this cloud community and making it a physical one.
[00:04:55] And I think, yeah. B Bella talks about this all the time, right? Yeah. You know, you're going to build this like, [00:05:00] uh, digital nation first and then eventually once you have this digital nation, you're going to have a physical nation to accompany the people who have joined this digital nation.
[00:05:10] Mike: Yeah. Does he talk about that in his network state book?
[00:05:12] Cuz I haven't read that one. I mean, I know haven't
[00:05:14] Joe: read it yet either. Uh, did the pre-order, I assume it's come out now. Uh, but no, he's been talking about this just on Twitter and, and his blog for a long time now. Yeah.
[00:05:26] Mike: So, so the end game of people that were in that cohort were to gain knowledge and gain connection or that was like, that's what the purpose was that she put out.
[00:05:34] But I mean, What, when you talk about people that were in there from different backgrounds, I assume that they also had different objectives going into that, or was it similar of like, hey, we're kind of wanting to just explore how to some of these ideals,
[00:05:48] Joe: you know? Yeah, so everybody was in different stages.
[00:05:50] My wife and I have a, a house in the suburbs and a town that, uh, you know, until a few years ago, uh, we thought was where we were gonna die, right? Mm-hmm. , um, and [00:06:00] maybe we still will, right? Like, who knows the future . Um, but other people had just bought a farm. Other people had just like moved out nowhere.
[00:06:07] Other people were living in New York City and they, they were thinking that, you know, maybe they would like to, to do this in three to five years. And so it went all the way through land selection to, you know, very specific things about raising, uh, crops and raising, um, animals. And it gave you a lot of tools.
[00:06:26] Uh, so there was a reading list that, uh, I was not able to keep up with, but, you know, I was able to buy these books and. We're slowly working through them. Yeah. Um, but the main lesson was it has to be, you have to base yourself around community. Yeah. Um, you know, to, to keep, uh, a camp of people, uh, or a house safe from, uh, the, the rest of the world.
[00:06:48] If the rest of the world desires you not to be safe, you know, you probably need what, uh, a small military base would need, which is maybe 3000 people to guard it. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, the, the real way to, [00:07:00] uh, prepare for any coming, you know, apocalypse is not really to, to, to prepare yourself. It's to prepare your neighbors and, and to get, and to find people who are either like-minded or, you know, talk with these, uh, these people that you would otherwise, uh, that you're, that you're surrounded by anyway.
[00:07:15] No, man is an island. So yeah, it was a good, good lesson in that
[00:07:18] Mike: course. That's cool. I feel like we could talk all day about that. So , but maybe we can start it.
[00:07:26] Joe: How long have you been doing this? What's that? How long have you been doing 2 cent dad?
[00:07:30] Mike: So 2 cent dads started about five years ago. Um, so it started because I was starting to take over my dad's business, which is a software development company that we do.
[00:07:39] We build teams out of our offices in India. So we're based in Michigan, but we work with a lot of SaaS businesses that are a lot of very like, unsexy businesses that are needing to scale up and they can't hire and retain and, and, and so we, we build 'em teams that come right alongside their in-house team.
[00:07:54] So anyways, I was, um, taking that over and, and I was like, [00:08:00] how do I, how do I balance this desire to grow this thing now that is like, I really believe in and want to grow and I want to have an intentional family and had young family. Sure. And I, I didn't find any content that really spoke to me. It was a lot of people that were all about business or it was, it was stay at home.
[00:08:16] Dads just fine if you're a stay at home dad. It just wasn't necessarily where I was at. Right. So, um, I wanted to talk to people that were trying to balance that, you know, and buddy of mine's like just start a podcast and. Just like cold email these people. And so I did, it happened to be a lot of people in tech initially and then just kind of branched out to interesting people that are dads that I want to talk with and, and hear about the cool things they're doing.
[00:08:40] So yeah, it's very like, unintentional Joe. Like I, I, I didn't really have a strategy for it cause I just wanted to have these conversations and I'm trying to reboot it a little bit and take it a little more seriously. Um, and I'm still flushing that out a little bit. So open to feedback. And any
[00:08:58] Joe: questions?
[00:08:59] I think, I think [00:09:00] that, uh, this is great. What's the downside? Uh, let's, let's, uh, let's keep on seeing. I'm happy. I'm gonna definitely listen to some of the other episodes. Um, but I think that you're hitting a cross section of people that, uh, are not talking about fatherhood. Um, and they're not talking about, uh, You know, the, the people that are your target audience are not seeking to talk about this.
[00:09:25] Um, you know, the good ones anyway, uh, , I think, uh, like there's a lot of people who like would like to generate, uh, content, you know, at 12 hours a day on it. Um, but I would, uh, you know, maybe the, you know, it's, it's like somebody running for office, right? Like the people who are aspiring to, to run for office are also those who I trust the least to obtain it.
[00:09:49] if somebody's like doing like eight, 10 hours a day on Instagram and TikTok, like maybe, uh, maybe their parenting advice once you take with a grain of salt. Right? Right. [00:10:00] Yeah, that's, that's a good point. The harder a guest is to get, the better their information may be presumed to be Yes. Uh, before they, they come on your podcast.
[00:10:10] So that's an
[00:10:11] Mike: interesting point, um, because I've had people reach out that are like, Very, very active and they're like, oh, I sell these things online and I'm a dad and I wanna come on you. And I'm like, those are really the people I least want on that are like really, really vying to be on. I'm like, I should be selling you and I should be excited about having you on.
[00:10:27] So, exactly. Not that I'm being egotistical about my podcast cuz it's just a tiny little podcast. But anyways. So Joe, tell me about Boxcar. Give me the pitch on, on boxcar and, and how you guys do with the world. So
[00:10:41] Joe: yeah, so Boxcars, a marketplace commuter, um, marketplace company focused on commuters from the suburbs.
[00:10:48] Uh, so very niche sounding, uh right. Uh, and so our original business line was Airbnb for parking just like 500 other people had tried. Uh, we made this work with, um, [00:11:00] just focusing on suburban train station parking. And so in a lot of these suburban towns that are outside of what we call legacy transit cities, these are transit cities where.
[00:11:10] The suburbs developed before the automobile. So that's like New York, Chicago, dc, Boston, Philly, and San Francisco. Really just those six cities outside of there, these towns, uh, built around train stations. And so what that means is that if you wanted to build a church or a butcher shop, uh, you built it near the train station.
[00:11:28] And so all of this real estate became super valuable or in apartment building right near the train station. And now that all of the rest of the town has been developed and all the other towns that don't have train stations also have residents, it's very hard to park near those train stations. And so what we do is we solve that problem by partnering primarily with civic organizations.
[00:11:47] So churches, VFWs, Elks, lodges, uh, these are properties that were built near the train station maybe a hundred years ago, and they've got parking lots of their own and they don't need them Monday through [00:12:00] Friday for the most part. So we take their parking, we rent it out to commuters. Commuter pays six bucks, we take a dollar 50, the rest goes to the organization.
[00:12:08] Uh, this was a decent growing business. It was never gonna, you know, put anybody, uh, on the cover of a entrepreneur magazine with, uh, spf, but like, you know, it's going to, uh, pay the bills. Uh, it was keep out on growing. We were gonna be able to take our kids to Disney World and, uh, , like really, um, just have a steady, calm business.
[00:12:29] Uh, so the pan, so we also had a luxury bus service that went into Manhattan. It was super niche. We didn't really focus on expanding it. It was more expensive to expand because we had to pay a fixed price for the bus, and then we didn't make money until the tickets, uh, exceeded that cost around maybe 30 riders a day.
[00:12:45] So, you know, fast forward to 2020. I've been doing this for three years. Uh, we're doing a decent business. We're doing 200 grand a month. We get to keep 40 to 50 of that, and our monthly expenses are 40 to $50,000. So, Uh, it's calm. We're [00:13:00] growing, you know, we're expecting that we'll, we'll hit, uh, $300,000 by the end of 2020 without growing any expenses.
[00:13:07] So turning a decent profit, being able to invest in other, you know, hires to do the things that I don't wanna do, frankly. Mm-hmm. . Um, so 2020 comes along. Nobody gets hit really harder than commuter focused businesses, which was us entirely. We fall off a cliff. We go down to zero revenue. We are staying at zero revenue for the foreseeable future.
[00:13:27] Uh, so we take our app, uh, and we focus on a number of other services. Uh, and now fast forward today, we're doing alright. Uh, parking is back a little bit. Um, Bus service is kind of through the roof. It's, it's an opportunity now to really grow that business line. So, okay. Uh, for now, if you're looking at boxcar, you are, if you're using boxcar, you are primarily using us as a way to get to your office in Midtown Manhattan in a much more convenient, reliable, safe way then you might otherwise be able to do.
[00:14:00] Mike: Very cool. That's really interesting. Thanks for, thanks for sharing that, Joe. Yeah. So where's it going in the future? Tell me about, tell me about where you, you spoke about having a kind of a marketplace to find other services, all that sort of thing. I think when we spoke a
[00:14:14] Joe: little bit ago. Yeah. So, you know, we think that, so the, the opportunity that opportunities we pursued during the pandemic were, uh, myriad.
[00:14:26] Anything to keep my team together and my business alive. So, initially that. boxes of groceries. And we partnered with grocery, uh, wholesalers who had no clients because they usually sold the restaurants, schools, cruise ships. Uh, and at the same time, it was hard to get groceries at like a grocery store. Uh, we were doing these drive-throughs where you would order it in our app, just like you would normally reserve a parking space.
[00:14:49] Uh, and you would pull through and, you know, we would see your license plate and boom in would go whatever groceries you ordered. Um, and we were doing this really big business there. [00:15:00] You know, we were doing, um, like a hundred thousand dollars in a week. Uh, for, for some of these, for a little while. We pivoted.
[00:15:06] Uh, we did drive-in movies, acquired a ton of customers. We did mobile auto detailing, which we still do today, where we come to your house. And, you know, that's where we partner with a merchant who does a very good job with detailing cars in people's driveways. And he sells through our app People Reserve.
[00:15:21] Uh, and we give him, you know, over 85% of the revenue. Um, but we help with the customer service and the technology. Uh, we do Santa Claus appointments and we've done, you know, over a hundred thousand dollars worth of Santa Claus appointments and we just released, uh, today, you know, the 2022 version. Um, and you know, there we partner with a local civic organization who does this, uh, and we, you know, they got a small fee for the customer service and the technology.
[00:15:45] But, um, you know, so I view this really as, uh, long term building a, an American Express that's focused on the suburb. So an American Express original model was like you're a member and upon your membership is conferred certain [00:16:00] advantages. Opportunities means that your credit is good enough that you can walk in and pay with this piece of plastic and settle up with American Express later, right?
[00:16:07] That's when credit cards weren't as, uh, ubiquitous as they are now. And so most of our customers, right? Pay us a $30 monthly membership fee. Uh, and for right now, that gives them good discounts on our bus tickets, our parking, it gives them better access to Santa Claus appointments and, uh, mobile auto detailing and knife sharping and all these other things that we have that usually are scarce and sell out, they get the first crack at them.
[00:16:30] And so now I have this really, uh, superb customer base because they're paying, uh, more money for their daily commute. They're paying for a little bit of a nicer parking experience that's reserved in advance, you know, and, and so who else wants to, um, you know, sell to this customer base? Well, it's every single company out there, right?
[00:16:48] And so for all these small companies in the suburbs, uh, you know, whether it's an HVAC company or a coffee shop, they don't have the resources to compete with, um, you know, Starbucks when it comes to tech development. Then they [00:17:00] don't have the opportunity to, you know, some of them are sometimes in the middle of doing work and they're getting a phone call from a new.
[00:17:06] Um, they don't have the time to schedule that or, or take the, they have to choose between doing the work or dealing with the, the customer service. And so I would like to say, you know, this is a great customer base. They're very loyal to Boxcar. They've already got their saved home address payment information, uh, vehicle.
[00:17:20] And wouldn't it be great if, you know, you could sell your services? Doesn't matter what it is, if firewood delivery plowing a driveway to this customer, and at the end of the day, boxer doesn't really need to make money on this. We need to offer these services in such a way that it delights customers, um, uh, that they keep their membership.
[00:17:38] Uh, and that would fully align our vision, you know, our, our business with our customers. The people who are paying money to us at the end of the day should also be the ones who are bank. Uh, our business, um, not, you know, some sort of like captive audience, like somebody searching on Amazon who's now getting bombarded with a thousand ads for the cheapest, you know, product that's gonna break the third time they use it.
[00:17:59] So [00:18:00] that's my vision. Long term is an opportunity to take this customer base and give them everything that they need, create a super app for the suburbs, um, and then, you know, maybe it's a different adventure, but eventually create new suburbs. So it's almost
[00:18:12] Mike: like, I couldn't help but draw the analogy to like Costco.
[00:18:15] Like, you have all these people that pay a membership to Costco and then Costco's like, I'm gonna go out and barter for all of these, like, really good prices, really good products, and like you're serving them. So Costco knows they make a bank roll on all these membership fees, so they're like, I'm gonna do what's best for them.
[00:18:29] And it's so, it's such a, maybe this is not a good analogy, but No, it is, it's funny because it runs in such contrast to when you have someone that's in the store trying to sell you something. Sometimes they have like, someone that's trying to push like a credit card or like at and t or something, and it's like, that's like the banner ad on Amazon.
[00:18:45] You're like, you're, you know, like the re-click add is like, oh, I don't want that. Like, no, I want all these things that are actually like, valuable to me. Does that make sense? You
[00:18:52] Joe: know, like , uh, it makes total sense. It's a great analogy. And I, I always wonder, I'm like, why, why isn't anybody else doing this?
[00:18:58] Yeah. Why isn't anybody else like, [00:19:00] just focused on keeping their customer base a little smaller than it would be otherwise? Yeah. Uh, you know, reducing their customer service complaints from people who are always going to cause trouble. Um, and, you know, just making it so that you can delight your customers in more ways than one.
[00:19:15] And the short answer is, uh, that I've come up with is like, there, there's no legitimate reason for this, other than the idea of these, like, SaaS companies became so attractive. You know, uh, VCs thought that they had created alchemy. Mm-hmm. . Um, you could come up with a SaaS company that's charging a $35 or $3,500 monthly fee, uh, invest in them and get them to, you know, permeate the market quickly.
[00:19:38] But this is going to take a long time, is the other thing. Right. A lot of entrepreneurs are very impatient. Uh, the, the vision that I'm laying out, it's, I'm building a chicken and egg marketplace, and right now it's hyper managed. Mm-hmm. , I am, I'm unable to say, you know, just go buy eggs off the shelf like Costco, uh, at a great discount and, you know, sell them to people who are already in [00:20:00] my store.
[00:20:00] I have to really manage these relationships. Yeah. But, you know, as our software, as our customer base grows, as our revenue grows, our software will also improve. We'll be investing in that, uh, as our software improves, it'll allow us to add more vendors with less, uh, rigamarole. Um, you know, as we add these vendors with less friction, we'll be able to add, acquire more customers.
[00:20:19] So I don't think we're gonna see most of our growth until five years from now. Mm-hmm. . But, um, and so that's, but yes, it makes perfect sense. Just make your customers happy and charge 'em a little bit of money. Yeah.
[00:20:30] Mike: So you guys have like funding, you guys are profitable now? Or like what, how do you get to that five years?
[00:20:35] How do you span the five years? Yeah.
[00:20:37] Joe: So right now we are, uh, profitable. Okay. Uh, so, uh, squeaking by on a little bit of profit. We did do a fundraising. Uh, we raised about $750,000 earlier this year. Okay? And that was really because we saw the opportunity of the transit and the, the window is open right now where we can go to a new place and we can launch a bus, uh, in the morning [00:21:00] and it goes all the way.
[00:21:00] You know, it goes wifi, power outlets goes across 42nd Street all the way up Madison Ave. Big, big appeal is that it skips the subway for people, right? The subway's not a great place. Um, our ridership has gone from 20% female pre pandemic to 55% female now. So, uh, an anecdotally talking to our customers, they say it's because, well, I'm a, I'm a small woman.
[00:21:20] I'm petite, I don't wanna be on the subway. I felt very uncomfortable being on the subway the last few times I'm on. So I'm always gonna take box. Um, and so this is our, you know, it's kind of our window of opportunity to say, okay, like, now's the time to launch new roots. Mm-hmm. in terms of funding. Like, there's a world where we take funding.
[00:21:35] Um, we're still a few weeks, maybe even months away from like figuring out whether we can take a dollar and make a dollar 50. Right. Uh, that's where we were pre pandemic. We could take a dollar, um, you know, spend it on acquiring parking spots and then spend, uh, it on acquiring Parkers and we can make a dollar 50.
[00:21:54] We are not yet at that point where I can confidently raise a couple million dollars and say, yes, we [00:22:00] can like Hypothecate money, uh, from New Roots, but, uh, we may be there soon.
[00:22:04] Mike: Okay. Very cool. So, what do you see, so I want to, I want to kind of ask where the next five years, what do you see macro trends that are gonna lead to your growth?
[00:22:14] I mean, one of the things that you and I have talked about via Twitter and stuff is what's going on in the world, right? Like, all of these, yeah. I mean that, that could be a three hour conversation, but what, what do you see? In terms of macro trends that play into boxcars growth and just generally, um, in the, in the
[00:22:30] Joe: climate.
[00:22:32] So we have always somewhat thrived in crisis. Um, whether it, you know, we started our bus when a train line went down for the summer and they no longer serve Manhattan. So we launched it. We said people are gonna be looking for a new way in. Um, why not start a public transit, uh, in our company or private transit company.
[00:22:51] Um, and then anytime that there's been, you know, like a, a tree falling on the train tracks and all of a sudden service is suspended on that train line, [00:23:00] well we can tune, you know, we can go to our bus companies and say, instead of running four buses this morning, we're gonna run 12 mm-hmm. . And we are going to get, uh, a lot of new customers and then a lot of them are gonna stay with us after this crisis has passed.
[00:23:11] And so, macro trends, uh, I think it's almost impossible to predict what's going to happen like two years from now, right? Yeah. Um, but people's faith, uh, the loss that. A faith that people are having in, uh, experts and the government and all these other things, uh, is corresponding. It's not, you know, coming out of some, uh, insidious campaign to disillusion people.
[00:23:34] It's coming out of, uh, a loss of, uh, like a, like a deserved loss of trust. Like people are letting us down again and again and again. They just ev email, like letting us down. It's coming outta firm
[00:23:44] Mike: data points that are happening real time.
[00:23:46] Joe: Right, ? Yeah, exactly. I always say you could, uh, like, uh, in, in March, 2020, I remember, uh, tweeting, like you can draw a straight line from, uh, you know, Jimmy Carter abolishing the civil [00:24:00] service exam, um, as a requirement to advance in the civil service to uh, what is going to be a colossal mishandling of the pandemic.
[00:24:07] Yeah. Right. What happens when, you know, oh, we said, hey, like we're a post merit society. Yeah. Um, you know, so we don't need to promote based on merit. We can pro promote, promote based on the whole human. Yeah. Um, Well, it's great as long as you have no pandemics and you're infinitely rich. Um, but, uh, so the, you know, the, uh, where are things going?
[00:24:27] I think there's going to be crisis. So like I'm focused on every few, uh, weeks adding some new buses. Yeah. Either to our existing line or a new location. Um, but what do I expect someone to happen is that, um, there's going to be a transit strike and everybody says, well, obviously what's going to happen with the transit strike is that, you know, we're going to have a transit strike and within a few hours Congress is gonna come in and they're gonna say, Nope, transit strike's over.
[00:24:52] And I'm like, have you seen Congress? This? Congress? Like, uh, so you think they're going to just have their act together this one time? Uh, [00:25:00] maybe, maybe they will. Right? Like maybe they'll have their act completely together. Um, 20% chance they don't. Right. Yeah. 20% chance that like the strike goes on. And what does that mean?
[00:25:08] It's gonna shut down massive amounts of commuter rail as well. Like a number of lines in Chicago. Yeah. Uh, Boston, um, You know, and then some, uh, out in like Seattle. Yeah. So there's a crisis, there's an opportunity. Um, there's a lot of companies that have bulked up and, you know, taken on debt and, uh, absorbed other companies.
[00:25:29] Uh, private equity money is not flowing right now. Mm-hmm. , uh, uh, asterisks really fun story is a lot of it is not flowing because of the Twitter deal. It is so large and it printed at such a low yield that, and then yields moved so, so much higher. And the, the deal became so less attractive that banks have kept it on their books, which has eaten up all their private equity deals for like, uh, budgets.
[00:25:52] Um, so it's fascinating cuz the entire global world of private equity has sh. Uh, significantly. So, you know, there are these companies that are [00:26:00] not focused on serving customers. Um, they're focused on like, you know, uh, in New Jersey specifically, a lot of these transit companies are focused on receiving state and federal dollars.
[00:26:09] And then, you know, they do a really bad job with customer service. Um, a lot of them are on tenuous footing right now. They didn't receive a lot of that, uh, bailout money that was given out to the public transit agencies. Um, are they gonna make it the public transit agencies themselves, as you've seen from Twitter?
[00:26:23] Like I've been really digging into their annual reports. Yeah. Uh, they themselves are saying they run out of money in 2024 to 2025. Yeah. Um, now in the past, that has always coincided with a time when the federal government and state governments are in positions to bail out their, you know, beloved and important public transit agencies.
[00:26:47] What if they can't? Um, what if it happens to arrive at a same time and there's such a budget crunch at state and local governments. Uh, and federal government that, you know, those dollars aren't there, what decisions are they gonna make? So, you know, from macro trends [00:27:00] perspective, we're in growth mode. I'm in steady growth mode, maintaining some cash buffer.
[00:27:04] And, uh, I think that if you, if we talk a year from today, we'll be like, yes, there was, uh, things were going steadily. And then can you, oh my God, remember what happened in February of 2023? Huh? I can't believe, like, you know, innocent Joe from November of, uh, 2022. Yeah. You know, I had no idea what, what, uh, shit storm he was about to step into.
[00:27:26] Sorry, I don't know the rating of this is, but, um, so yeah, I, I think the macro is, uh, the better you are at dealing with crises, if you can turn a crisis to, from a disadvantage to a slight advantage, you know, 1% loss versus 1% gain, uh, you're going to have a very good couple next years. And that's what, that's what we're focused on is steady business.
[00:27:48] Hope no crises come, but if they come, we should be in a position to. Uh, grow rather than shrink as
[00:27:54] Mike: a result. Yeah. Which it sounds like you guys have your eye on those macro trends and you've a, you have a history of [00:28:00] thriving in crisis, so it kind of bodes well for future if those were to happen. So you said, I wanna back up to what you said about the Twitter deal, cuz I, I was a little bit, that made that one over my head, but you said, tell me how that, um, tied into the private equity markets and, and what, you know, explain that a little bit like I'm five
[00:28:18] Thank you for listening to the Tucson Dad podcast. I wanted to take just one minute to tell you how this show is possible and that is through my business EC group. We help software companies get more done by building them amazing developer teams. Now those teams come alongside their in-house developers to help them build more and build faster.
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[00:29:04] Love to talk to you.
[00:29:07] Joe: Yeah. Um, so if a bank's able to do, uh, a hundred billion of, uh, private equity or 10 billion in private equity for the year, um, or keep 10 billion of private equity, uh, on their books mm-hmm. at any given time, um, in February, March, whenever the whole thing went down, a number of banks signed commitments to Elon Musk saying, we will back this private equity deal and we will do it at a 3.8%, whatever, uh, 3.8% rate.
[00:29:40] Um, because it was February, March, 2022 and the prime rate was, you know, around 1%, uh, from the Fed. So, or one and a half percent. Uh, so, uh, fast forward to everybody thinking, oh, well, the deals fall fallen apart. Well, now it's back on. Well, now it's off. But Twitter's trying to [00:30:00] force it to be on. Uh, so this took like 10 months to get done.
[00:30:04] And, uh, in those 10 months, the Fed continued raising rates to meet, you know, uh, to conquer the spectrum of inflation. Well, now a private equity deal would normally price, you know, two and a half, 3% above like, like a tier, a private equity deal would, would price a few points above prime. Well, now prime's at what?
[00:30:22] 4, 7, 5. So now they're looking at seven, eight, 9%, uh, yield on this. And now everybody's saying that Twitter's about to die in the next few hours. Uh, like, uh, these banks, if, if they, uh, but they were still obligated at closing to meet that whatever, 3%, 4%, uh, closing cost at, at uh, rate at closing. Even though, at closing, none of them would ever have made that.
[00:30:48] Loan, uh, regularly. Yeah. So right now they're sitting on these loans that are meant to be paid back by Twitter. Um, and in do, in sitting on them and being unable to sell 'em because if they turn around and sell 'em, they're [00:31:00] gonna lose 20% Yeah. Of their, you know, $10 billion investment. Um, and by holding them on their books, it means that when somebody else comes along and says, Hey, I wanna do this deal.
[00:31:10] I, you know, I own a, uh, a pipe manufacturing company, there's another pipe manufacturing company, I'm profitable. They're profitable. Uh, it's like a straight stick, normal private equity deal. The bank has to say, I'm sorry, but we can't, uh, we are currently sitting on like a hundred percent of our private equity funds either for the year, uh, because we have an annual, annual budget for the year or because, uh, we are sitting on this $10 billion potential time bomb that we're all getting skittish about.
[00:31:40] Yeah. Um, we cannot finance your pipe fitting, company's acquisition, private equity, uh, acquisition of another pipe fitting company. Um, and in just talking with some friends who are in private equity, they are saying, you know, a combination of rising rates and the Twitter deal, um, has basically seized the entire market.
[00:31:59] [00:32:00] Um, for those who don't have, you know, cash to do Wow. To do these deals,
[00:32:04] Mike: which I look at that as like, you know, even firms like Boxcar, even like, you know, we're, we're not reliant on outside capitals. Like that kind of is, is ripe for, you know, those type of players to come in and like, make some moves because you have all these, some of these companies that are reliant on just a steady stream of capital, they're not profitable as causes a bunch of issues, you know, and you're seeing that in the tech layoffs and that sort of thing that are going around right now.
[00:32:26] So it's really fascinating to see what's gonna happen over the next 12, 12, 18 months, you know?
[00:32:31] Joe: Yes. Uh, it is time to grow for some people, right? Yeah. Um, it'll, it'll be certainly a time of consolidation. Yeah. Um, . I mean, you look at these like, like the specs and you're just like, wow. Like, I wonder if it was worth it, you know, like to go public and get whatever money you got.
[00:32:49] And now your company is about to get delisted from Nasdaq because it's trading out like 20 cents. Yeah. Um, yeah. Fascinating time to be alive, .
[00:32:58] Mike: So what do you, what do you think's [00:33:00] gonna happen over at Twitter? Because it's funny to see that kind of transpiring. Yeah. And there's, everyone's kind of getting all upset at Elon for like, actually making people work hard and getting rid of the fluff, you know?
[00:33:12] Joe: Yeah. What do you follow this guy who talks about, um, not the, he doesn't talk about the, he talks about the swarm, you know, that again, he's not ringing a bell, but, okay. So he's always talking about the swarm and, you know, like, this is like a swarm. The, the response to the Ukraine war was a swarm, right?
[00:33:27] Mm-hmm. , nobody came out and was like, you need to, um, take away the license for, uh, Luke Oil. Affiliates in Newark who are owned by Bangladesh, immigrants to do business, but like the Newark Council, like just did it, right? They were like, like, oh, we heard Luke oil's bad. Like, we're shutting down these gas stations.
[00:33:48] You're, it's, you, you lost your license for to do gas station. And these Bangladesh immigrants are like, why? Like what? Like, we don't give Luke Oil a penny. Like, we can change our name. They're like, Nope, you're done. You're out. Um, and so like between [00:34:00] that and like McDonald's shutting down and all these other things, like Biden wasn't behind the scenes like saying like, Hey, you gotta like McDonald's, you gotta get outta Russia.
[00:34:07] Like, this was just, uh, a swarm, right? And so it was like the, the same swarm, uh, like what, what's a good one? Like when like an early, early version was like, me too, right? Yeah. This was like a righteous swarm because like people, uh, and, and like it went after like Harvey Weinstein, right? But then like the swarm like got Harvey Weinstein, uh, rightfully, and they were like, all right, like, what do we do now?
[00:34:29] And they're like, just keep on like destroying stuff. Um, and so, you know, the. The idea of this is like once Elon bought Twitter and he said, go out and vote Republican. You know, I'm voting Republican, by the way. Yeah. This year, um, the swarm was like, okay, well we don't need a leader to like fund it. We don't need Soros behind the scenes to like come out and attack Twitter.
[00:34:52] Like, we are just like, we're, we're on, we're getting it. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so it's fascinating because it's the world's like richest [00:35:00] most, you know, he's guy launches rockets. Uh, he could blow up your city if he want, like, um, could only do it once and then they would, he wouldn't have much. But like, you know, he's a very powerful and he is, he was a world world's richest man.
[00:35:13] Like, uh, he could just like turn off all, all our cars if you have a Tesla, um, and you know, it's him versus this like network swarm of people who really like made Twitter the place. It was, you know, uh, a lot of these, like, I, I don't think anybody wants to like be on a. All right, like conservative version of Twitter, like there'll be nobody to dunk on, you know?
[00:35:36] Um, and so it's just, it's fascinating to play out. I have no idea what is, what is going to happen. You know, I, I won't bet against Elon, uh, for a minute, but I mean, the, the economics of the debt that he has to pay, uh, for Twitter, I just don't see, I don't see how he pulls it off, but he has, uh, surprised me to the upside many times in the past when I thought, well, [00:36:00] uh, you know, Tesla's gonna dive.
[00:36:01] Like it is completely uncorrelated to the underlying value of the company. You know, time to short Tesla. Well, there it goes up another 200%. What do I know? And it
[00:36:11] Mike: seems like he's made, he's the direction from, from rockets and, and cars. So like hardware to software seems like it would be easier transition, right?
[00:36:20] He's not manufacturing physical goods, like at least he's gotten that going for him. Right. You know, it's easier
[00:36:25] Joe: to. Easier to swing the other, I would say, yeah, I do say that about myself too. Like, uh, not to compare us to, but I'm always like, man, like in my next life, uh, for my next act, I will be doing a pure software play.
[00:36:36] Yeah. Like, uh, running buses, you know, uh, it's just doing things in the real world. Is it, it it'll put years on you. Yeah.
[00:36:47] Mike: Um, so speaking of which, how, how do you see the relation between, you know, what's going on with, um, FTX and um, and Twitter? Is that a coincidence with Elon? With all, I mean, it's [00:37:00] just bananas.
[00:37:00] I cannot keep up with it. And I think, Joe, you're, you're a, you're a force for uncovering a lot of facts related to this, but, you know, the, the crypto exchange ftx like that, I'm sure most people that are listening to the podcast are probably aware of, um, is imploding and there's all these implications now that there's left, you know, democratic, you know, um, connections and all it, it's kind of like.
[00:37:22] Every time you turn over a rock like some other thing is there that connects 'em to some rabbit hole. And I think my perception as, as an outsider that's maybe uneducated on some of that stuff is you start to lose sense of, okay, who's actually legit in unearthing some of these things, but the sheer frequency of them and the sheer number of like valid data points gives you enough caution to be thinking that something is really amis here.
[00:37:47] and, and I dunno, gets your mind going.
[00:37:51] Joe: So, to, to summarize the theory that I've heard it is, uh, Sam Bankman Fried, uh, was a [00:38:00] nobody, but he had a dad who wrote, uh, was often cited, you know, he, he was at MIT with Gary Gensler. He was Gary Gensler's boss. He was, uh, often cited as, uh, you know, a person who was crafting the way.
[00:38:14] crypto policy should be created and crypto companies should be regulated. And then his mom was a specialist at bundling large donations for Democrats. Um, and then, uh, out of nowhere comes, uh, he goes to Sequoia. Yeah. And he's able to raise like a billion dollars, whatever, a couple hundred million dollars from Sequoia.
[00:38:38] Um, with the, what, what seems to be a pitch for, uh, we're gonna have a crypto exchange, which, like, there are a lot of crypto exchanges. Why? Like, how do you succeed in 20? Uh, and I figured, well, maybe Fdx had been around a while. I've been in crypto a while. I don't pay attention to any new developments, uh, of like new exchanges coming.
[00:38:56] They come and go. So I figured Fdx had been around a while, but no, it [00:39:00] started in 2020, you know, and so the theory is, well it started the week after Biden announces candidacy. Um, and then, you know, he received all this money a few weeks later. now all the money is gone, but, you know, tens of millions have been verifiably sent to Democrat candidates.
[00:39:17] Um, uh, and, uh, I don't, I mean, the, the theory makes sense, like it, but it, it's, you know, it makes, it makes, um, so like you have motive, you have means, uh, and you have no evidence. Mm-hmm. . So I don't know, like, I don't know, like that's what we have a lot these days, right? Is we have these stories where like, well, I see the motive, like I see why this would happen.
[00:39:41] Like I see the means, like I see like the means to make this happen, right? Um, that like, uh, and I, and I have zero evidence and like, how am I gonna find that? Like, you can do on chain transactions, but if like somebody just has a private wallet somewhere and they're running, you know, Bitcoin, qt, like, you don't know who owns that wallet.
[00:39:57] Like, it's all, it's all on the ether. [00:40:00] So, um, just like add this to the growing list of things where we're like, this smells, uh, this smells funky. Um, and. , you know, a lot of people who are also saying that, like there were crisis actors in Sandy Hook are saying that this is going on, and like, so I'm disinclined to believe them.
[00:40:17] Uh, but then a lot of people who are like, you know, uh, Biden is going to the teacher's unions to craft his school choice. Uh, and school reopening policy are saying this. And they were right when they were called conspiracy nuts, uh, when they said that, you know, teachers unions were writing, like it all turned out to be true.
[00:40:36] Um, so I, yeah, it's, uh, do your own due diligence. Caveat em, um, what a world though. I mean, uh, that, that were even, you know, very, uh, normal people and then, you know, New York Times comes out and they're like, what a nice guy. This Sam guy was. Right. What is it? It's so unfortunate. It's like all these fluff pieces.
[00:40:55] It's like, I, how is this? Even if, if you were
[00:40:58] Mike: running this campaign, it's like [00:41:00] obvious, right? It's like you seems like you would do it a different way. .
[00:41:04] Joe: The New York Times has been, has done nothing but dump on crypto for years. Exactly. And now suddenly there's like an intersection of like crypto and uh, Bernie Madoff and they're like, wow, like finally some nice stuff happened in here.
[00:41:17] Like let's give it a, the kid gloves treatment and it just makes you very incredulous. Yeah.
[00:41:24] Mike: So, so I, what really fascinates me, and I don't know that I have conclusions on this, Joe, is like the, the public sediment, like you're saying is there's this distrust of institutions, there's this distrust of experts, but it, it's, is that just an echo chamber of people that are quote, paying attention and then you have these other folks that are kind of just going along with it?
[00:41:44] Or are they, or is it more of. What can I do? You throw up your hands and you just kind of check out. And, and the, the long term implications of that are very interesting to me. And I don't know necessarily what they are, but you see that manifest itself in just people opting out [00:42:00] more of the traditional institutions.
[00:42:02] You know, my, you know, we homeschool our kids, so that's part of it, right? People are saying, you know, these institutions that are, that are just gonna put my kids right up and through these, these, you know, indoctrination schemes or whatever. I'm gonna, I'm gonna opt out. So that's like clear data points to say this is how people are responding.
[00:42:16] I don't like the fact that it's like, oh, we just have some savior Trump, you know, is gonna come in and fix everything. It's like, yeah, that didn't work out well before, right? So, um, it's, it, it's just interesting to me. It, I, I don't know what those long term, long tail things are, but it, it's, it's accelerating.
[00:42:33] It's like the last you think of, okay, if it, if it really happened, started with covid. It's been nonstop since, and the trust has continued to decline and there's continual perma crisis. Meanwhile, it seems like, , they're just getting away with murder, you know, literally with Epstein, you know, it's like, so what?
[00:42:53] Where does this lead a disenfranchised nation to tyranny? You know, it's all these like, conspiracy guys are like, oh, they're [00:43:00] gonna just send us off to camps. It's like, well, I don't, how does that actually logistically
[00:43:03] Joe: work? Yeah, yeah. The Epstein thing is so funny, right? Because like for a while you were like a conspiracy theorist.
[00:43:11] If you're like, Epstein's flying people to an island, and like he, you know, the, and it's an op, uh, for either like Israeli or US intelligence to like get dirt on people and leverage. And now that's like, um, as crazy as it sounds like that's the kind of the base case with Epstein, right? Like that's what was going on.
[00:43:31] That's why we don't have a client list. Um, but like the really funny thing about Epstein is that the, like when that guy was getting interviewed on the news and, uh, whatever, he was getting interviewed about like the paycheck protection program, pay, whatever, who was getting, and he's like, EP. , um, what's that?
[00:43:46] He was getting interviewed,
[00:43:46] Mike: was it Epstein getting interviewed or he was saying
[00:43:48] Joe: No, no, no. Uh, like a plumber. Yeah, like, like a, like a craftsman of some kind. Um, and they were like, I forget what they were talking about, but he is like, uh, Epstein didn't kill himself, uh, at the end of the interview. Right. And [00:44:00] the host is like, okay, well, and like, now it became this like, famous punchline.
[00:44:04] We're like, of course he did. Like, uh, everybody, like the, the guards, uh, were, you know, away from the cell when they weren't supposed to be. The cameras got turned off. And so it is like an interesting thing, like, uh, cuz like, you know, normally I'd be like, Hey, like I've got a customer base. Like, I don't really wanna like, say anything controversial and you bring up Epstein and I don't want get involved, but like, uh, no, like, uh, everybody knows Epstein can kill himself.
[00:44:27] Yeah. Like everybody, right? Like nobody's out there like, well he's, you know, he found rope and he just like, he got, got it. Like, so it is a weird thing to be, so,
[00:44:35] Mike: to look no one supporting is what you're saying. They're not even attempting to support a plausible scenario where that happened, is what you're saying.
[00:44:41] Joe: And, and so what are the implica exactly? Uh, so there's this Wayne, what, what, what's that Gelman effect? The, the one where if you see a news story that you know intimately well, you, uh, realize that like 80% of it is wrong, right? Yeah, yeah. Like the, the reporter just like didn't know what they were talking about.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Um, I'm gonna look that up. Uh, but it's, uh, it's this effect of effect news gelman amia, maybe it is. Yeah. The Gelman AMIA effect. And so, uh, if you like, see a New York Times article about yourself, they'd be like, wow. Like they got 75% of it wrong. And then the next thing you do is you go, you read a New York Times article about the oil crisis, you'll be like, wow.
[00:45:22] Like this is, this is what's happening in the oil crisis. Yeah. Uh, and you will no longer give the 75% discount. You won't take the 75% discount that you've learned firsthand. Yeah. Uh, and apply it to everything else that you consume. And so I think that that's kind of like what's happening societally, right?
[00:45:38] Is like, we know that like a couple things were like really nefarious and like plotted and bad, but we still in this sort of like galman amnesia moment. Like we still give everybody else everything else the benefit of the doubt. Mm. Um, and I think that's, uh, that's like a human nature thing.
[00:45:53] Mike: Is that changing though?
[00:45:54] Do you think that's just continuing to happen? Because more and more it's going, I
[00:45:58] Joe: think there's two, two things. [00:46:00] Yeah. So two things happening. The first is like, people are losing faith, right? And they're like choosing to do things, um, out of, so there's, uh, loyalty, voice, and exit. These are the, these are the three things that we can choose when dealing with, um, a, a system or an institution, right?
[00:46:18] Loyalty is, I'm going to just go, I'm gonna work within all the rules, and if suddenly, like, the water gets a little bit warmer the next day, I'm just gonna keep on working within the rules. Uh, and then like maybe, you know, you just keep on working within the rules until, uh, the water's boiling and then you, oh my gosh, I'm too late.
[00:46:36] Uh, then, you know, voice is when you're like, Hey, like I'm, I'm in Cranford. I'm having problems with what's going on in the school system. I want to talk to you about it. I want to change things. You know, it's, it's the effort to change things in, in your surroundings, in the system that you believe are unfair, wrong, immoral, uh, and then exit is, you know, goodbye.
[00:46:54] I'm, I'm going, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm now homeschooling, I'm moving to the country. I am [00:47:00] leaving the Democrat or Republican party. I am, you know, leaving America to go to a non extradition country of Bali. Like that guy in the news the other day. Um, so like, it, it's a, you know, the, the fundamentally I think a lot of people are moving from, uh, have moved in the last five, six years from loyalty to voice.
[00:47:17] Very few people have moved from voice to exit. Um, and as you know, as the friction for going to exit continues to fall with, uh, I believe remote work. You know, opportunities only just beginning, even though people are back in the office now. I think long term remote work is going to be a much bigger deal, uh, even than it is today or was during the pandemic because those were not remote first jobs.
[00:47:40] They were, yeah. You know, temporarily remote jobs, um, physical first, and so the whole structure. . So, you know, as exit becomes more palatable as the systems for, um, people who homeschool their kids become more robust. And for $29 a month you can get, uh, you know, uh, a really great teacher in, [00:48:00] um, you know, India to help you for two hours a day, uh, with some awesome, you know, one-on-one stuff with your kid, uh, that they're having trouble with.
[00:48:08] Uh, like there's just all of these opportunities that, uh, the same driving force that has driven people to, from loyalty to voice, um, will in the future as the barriers fall, drive people from, uh, loyalty to all the way to exit. Um, and you know, that's gonna be a very interesting thing to see. The other thing I'm seeing is that people are going back to.
[00:48:29] Mm. Um, and it reminds me somewhat of that guy in the Matrix who like sells out the, like the team. Yeah. And he's like, listen, like, just put me back in the matrix. Like, I just don't want, remember that any of this ever happened. Like, I want be there, make me a celebrity, make me rich. Like I just, I just want to, I wanna be happy.
[00:48:47] Yeah. Right. Um, and so there like, there are these people where I'm like, you used to like complain a lot, uh, like, you know, all this stuff that's going on. They're like, yeah. Like, what, what am I, like, what am I gonna do? Uh, you know, know it's outta my [00:49:00] like, be angry that things are outta my control or like, be happy that things are outta my control.
[00:49:05] Mike: So you think that's a, so that, is that the same as someone that's just like throwing up their hands? They're like, you know, I'm gonna choose to be kind of ignorant. I mean, I think that's the line the guy in the Matrix uses, like, ignorance is bliss. Right? And, and so is that a loyalty back to a certain. Um, entity that even though they know is, is not, you know, just, or, or, or, right.
[00:49:26] Or does all these nefarious things, they're like, well, whatever. You know, I'm gonna, I, I don't care. I'm gonna choose the, there's like Lester of two evils kind of complex going on, or,
[00:49:36] Joe: um, yeah, a hundred percent. Uh, and, and I mean, it's a choice I make. I'm like, listen, I'm not exiting so I should express voice.
[00:49:43] Like, there, there are things that I'm willing to express voice on. Um, but like, uh, a lot of that is just like, you know, shouting into the Twitter void, which is, you know, pretty meaningless. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then there are some things that I like express voice with locally that, um, you know, I feel like make a big difference.
[00:49:59] And I [00:50:00] serve on some boards I work, uh, I've, I've, I have a volunteer position in town, um, you know, pretty in involved with my kids' education. Mm-hmm. , um, but it's not, You know, it's the, the, once I've made the decision that I, I'm, I'm not leaving physically. Um, my best chance is loyalty. Right? Yeah. Like, what am I gonna do?
[00:50:22] Become a local pariah. Like of course not. Um, yeah, I love cranford. I really do. Like I don't wanna leave. Um, but if I went to voice on everything that I disagreed with, my gosh, I would, uh, I would never get anything else done, you know? Right,
[00:50:36] Mike: right. And do, do you think that's a small, um, so there seems to be a voice.
[00:50:43] I mean, if you take it as simplistic as, as left or right, there seems to be a lot of like the woke left culture, that it's very active and vocal and there's, there's been a silencing of any opposition cuz they're just like not wanting to get ruffle feathers. And this is like several years ago, but it's kind of then reached a tipping [00:51:00] point where they're like, okay, I'm gonna make my voice heard in the school boards and all the stuff around, you know, all of the things that the, the woke agenda that's coming into to schooling, um, I is, it is that it, it, it's interesting to me that there's such a small, a seemingly small, um, group that's causing such a loud voice.
[00:51:21] And it's, and it's only able to be so loud because of the silence of, of the majority that's just choosing loyalty or just throwing up their hands or whatever Is it Do, do you get what I'm saying?
[00:51:31] Joe: And, uh, I a hundred percent get what you're saying. So, uh, EB used to write on this about like the tyranny of the minority and, um, you know, he would always throw out his, like mathematical equations.
[00:51:42] Mm-hmm. , like, you know, one over Sigma shows that, you know, um, uh, a population of 11% that's highly devoted can change the course of a culture. Right. And he would point to, EB would point to things like, um, you know, the eradication of certain foods in like large Parisian or, or large like, uh, French [00:52:00] cities.
[00:52:01] where like 11% of the population was like Muslim, and they got like, all right, well, like no more pork in any of the schools. Um, and so, you know, there is that, uh, and, and that's of course like a, I guess, um, Muslim would be like far right? Yeah. Um, you know, but like to the far left, like there is that same thing too, where like at first they're like, listen, uh, like if you don't, if you don't think that like a man can be in a relationship with another man and you think they should be in jail for that, um, then like you're a bigot.
[00:52:33] Uh, and you're like, that's a good point. Like, I like that should be none of my business. Like, you know, love, like love, love the sin, hate the sin. Um, like, uh, and then they're like, well, like also, and then like, you know, they, they, they keep on saying things and you're like, I agree, I agree, I agree. And then you're like, well, like I've been agreeing with you a lot, but now you're talking about like my girls just getting like blown out of the water in swimming and I guess.
[00:52:59] I [00:53:00] don't wanna be the same person who didn't think that like those two guys could, uh, love each other in their private homes and have a relationship. So I guess you were right on all those other things, like, I guess you're right on this too. Um, but I feel a little uncomfortable about it. Um, and so that's what, you know, I, I've recently had to like, go to bat for one of my kids who was asked to like, read a book that, uh, we thought was inappropriate.
[00:53:24] Yeah. Um, and I was able to be successful and, you know, in talking to all these other parents, I was like, there is such a, uh, so like everybody agrees with me, probably 90% of the people. Yeah. Um, they were all like, can you believe this? And I was like, yeah, well, what are we gonna do about? They're like, well, you know, I don't know.
[00:53:41] I guess we're gonna read the book, right? I was like, no, we're not. Um, of course we're not. Um, and so, you know, we ended up in this, this world where like there's a, there's a really broad coalition of, you know, that's gonna get 70 to 80% of people to sign on to its agenda, which is like, Like, uh, take everything [00:54:00] from those like signs that people put outside their house.
[00:54:02] Like Black Lives Matter hate has no home here. Like, we believe in signs, like we Yeah. Put that in the manifesto and then like, add to it. Like, we think that you're perfect just the way that you were born. Like we think that, you know, uh, we want you to, you know, uh, make sure that you're, uh, protected from like, people who are not, uh, who don't have your best interests in mind.
[00:54:23] Like, parents should have a voice in their kids' curriculum. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so like, there's this world where like those people can stand up with confidence and say, I think that, you know, my kids need the best shot at being happy and successful and whatever they want to be for the rest of their life. And like, that means that if they're, you know, whatever, that they're gay or they're straight, or, you know, they're, they're black or they're Hindu, they're, they're always feeling fully accepted.
[00:54:49] Like, I need them to read the classics. Like, I don't have time for this other stuff. Mm-hmm. , um, like, I need them to like, learn math and you're not teaching them math, you're teaching them this other stuff. Yeah. Uh, they need access to AP [00:55:00] courses and they've been doing a lot of homework and they want to get better at, uh, this thing.
[00:55:03] So like, please give them. So there's, there's a broad coalition opportunity there. And I think that, uh, you know, it, that seems to be the way that things are turning. Um, and if, if I were to make a prediction, it would be that, uh, you know, the, the sort of like the woke stuff that, that people get very con concerned about, uh, is got like, it, like, it, like it goes, uh, it, it disappears just as fast as it came in the vast majority of the country.
[00:55:27] Yeah. Um, and it'll be led by, um, parents who have kind of like hit their loyalty to voice threshold. Yeah.
[00:55:35] Mike: Which I like that three tiered flush, uh, you know, thresholds where it's like, okay, you see the mobilization between the two or between the three. And, um, those have good and bad implications. I mean, You could argue too that, um, the exit, if you too have too much exit, then the, the existing system just kind of implodes.
[00:55:52] Right. And that's, that's not good either, right. So you have to have this Yeah. This mix of people that are doing different things and
[00:55:59] Joe: Yeah. [00:56:00] From a social contract perspective and also from an economic one. Right. I remember when David Tepper left New Jersey for Florida, our budget went down by 1%. Wow.
[00:56:08] State budget. Wow. . Yeah. That's crazy. So New York, new York's put in the millionaires tax. I guess they forgot that Connecticut and New Jersey exist, but, um, yeah, it's fascinating. Uh, you know, they're always going after the most mobile people first, it seems. Yeah.
[00:56:24] Mike: Oh man. Well thanks for being on Joe. I appreciate it.
[00:56:27] You know, I appreciate this conversation. I think we started, I was like, it was gonna be introduction and then just went, went into the conversation, so I think. I'll record a little intro for the, for the episode,
[00:56:36] Joe: but Cool. We pretty much include all that. We didn't get to talk much about parenting. I'm sorry about that,
[00:56:41] Well, I
[00:56:41] Mike: think I wanted to talk about some of the macro trends and stuff, and I know you're a father of five kids, and so a lot of the stuff that you talk about is very, you know, close to your heart and, and your, you're active in your community because you care about your kids. And, um, yeah, I think one of the things that I, I think just the belief that probably both of us share, [00:57:00] maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, is that, you know, all this cultural stuff starts in the home.
[00:57:04] And I, and, and, and that's something why I'm so excited about doing this podcast is how to help fathers and, and mothers and how do they understand what's going on? How do they maybe express their voice a little bit more and how do you equip them? Because ultimately the changes in the home shape the culture, you know, it's the culture's downstream from the home.
[00:57:24] And so I, I strongly believe that there's been just a disruption in the home for very, a vari a reasons. And that's led to what we kind are seeing. Maybe oversimplification, you know, obviously there's other things at play, but Yeah. Um, so anything we can do to kinda strengthen that?
[00:57:39] Joe: No, uh, I, I agree. I mean, we are in such a blessed position, right?
[00:57:43] Like we, we look at like what all the things that we've been given. And I would say, like, when people talk about like privilege, I'm the first to admit like I, I had the most privilege in the world. Cause I grew up in a safe home. I grew up with loving parents, um, who would do anything for me. Um, and, you know, gave me all the confidence.
[00:57:59] [00:58:00] And, you know, you go through life and you meet people who had such, uh, you know, uh, worse, so much worse experiences that than I had growing up. And I don't know your, your, uh, uh, uh, origin story, but, you know, uh, and, and the idea of treating them with compassion and, and doing everything that you can to break this like vicious cycle.
[00:58:20] abusive parents, uh, parents who are not loving, you know, just like, uh, which begets more and more of the same. And, you know, introducing love into that cycle, introducing confidence, uh, and allowing those people to, uh, you know, start a new cycle with their kids in the future. Um, I think it's like the highest calling.
[00:58:37] Yeah. Uh, you know, and I love that you're pursuing it, uh, and you're, you're putting your, you know, your money away, your mouth is there. Well, thanks man.
[00:58:44] Mike: Well, where can people find you, Joe? Um, I know boxcar.com. Right?
[00:58:48] Joe: boxcar.com. And on Twitter at, uh, it's Joe Co. Right.
[00:58:52] Mike: Well, cool. Well, thanks. I'll, um, I'll put a lot of that stuff that we discussed in the show notes and, um, until next time, man.
[00:58:58] Cool.
[00:58:58] Joe: Thank you. Absolute [00:59:00] pleasure. Until next time. Cheers.
[00:59:02] Mike: So we'll cut it there. All right. Thank. Thank you for listening to the Bear. If you enjoyed
[00:59:10] Joe: this,