071 | Morten Stengaard | Bottom-up Expansion to New Markets | Bemakers

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 071, I sit down with Morten Stengaard, Co-Founder and CEO of Bemakers, to discuss the challenges and strategies of expanding into international markets.

We delve into the complexities of distribution, the importance of local market engagement, and Bemakers' innovative approach to streamlining direct and indirect beverage distribution.

Morten shares valuable insights on brand building, consumer engagement, and navigating the drinks industry's intricate ecosystem.

N.B. If you are interested in Bemakers, mention the MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast to receive a 50% discount on the Setup fee.

https://bemakers.com/

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction

00:54 Challenges in Local Distribution

03:08 Expanding to International Markets

04:28 Founding Beemakers: A New Approach

06:23 Building Demand in New Markets

07:57 The Importance of Local Market Engagement

10:22 Strategies for Effective Brand Building

13:56 Leveraging Direct-to-Consumer Channels

37:03 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Morten Stengaard

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Morten Stengaard

Co-Founder | Bemakers

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Mafeo.
In episode 71, I sit down with

Morton Stangert, Co Founder and
CEO of B Makers, to discuss the

challenges and strategies of
expanding into international

markets, delve into the
complexities of distribution,

the importance of local market
engagement, and the innovative

approach of B Makers to
streamline direct and indirect

beverage distribution.
Morton shares valuable insights

on brand building, consumer
engagement, and how to navigate

the intricate ecosystem of the
drinks industry.

I hope you will enjoy our chat,
a small ask that means a lot to

me.
If you enjoy this podcast, take

the time to leave a review on
Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

You will find the detailed
transcript of this episode on

mafiadrinks.com where it gets
pre released 24 hours before

other platforms.
What were the challenges that

you find which leads to the
other part of your the other

hats that you have with bee
makers.

You know, what were the
challenges of in distribution in

in actually finding the right
partner to approach these guys?

So when we started out in
Denmark, it was relatively easy

to find the right restaurants,
set up meetings.

If they like the products, they
taste them.

If they like that, then we could
sell the products to them and

they could serve them.
I mean, so it was relatively

uncomplicated because we were
there in the local market.

We were already handling
distribution ourselves.

I mean, we could literally drive
two boxes of wine to the local

restaurant.
And I mean, it's not that

complicated.
And especially when you're

building a new brand or the new
category like our, it's very

hard to find distributors that
will actually take the brand and

work with it.
So as an example, even in

Denmark, we thought initially,
let's try to talk to the local

distributors.
And there was one or a few that

were interested in having the
conversation because we had

already opened up a few of the
Michelin star restaurants at

that point.
So they found it interesting to

have a conversation.
But we could also see that, I

mean, they couldn't really meet
the ambition that we had for the

brand.
So if they were suggesting we

can probably sell X bottles next
year, and then we were looking

at each other and say, OK, but
we could easily sell the four or

five X.
So there was really, you know,

they were very reluctant to take
on the brand and to put their

hands down and commit.
And we saw, of course, that it

was relatively easy for us to
come into a restaurant or to a

wine shop, tell our story, tell
about these premium sparkling

fruit wires from the Nordics,
all made from Nordic rutenberry.

And then they would try it and
if they liked it, they would buy

it and we could ship it in
Denmark.

It worked well and we built our
home market by ourselves, both

the off trade and on trade and
also a significant direct to

consumer E commercial channel as
well as having visitors in the

winery.
So all of that worked quite

easily in our home market and we
could gradually build it

ourselves.
But then we saw that as soon as

we wanted to cross borders, we
wanted to expand into a Norway

to Sweden, to Germany, you know,
around the globe.

Then it was a completely
different game.

Because if you go into the
market, then you need to handle

and pay excise duties in the
local market.

You need to pay VHE, there's
recycling fees on some product

or you need to handle the actual
shipping logistics payments,

etcetera.
And that's obviously why

everyone more or less in the
industry works with local

importers and districts.
And we did the same thing.

We tried to find the
distributor, for example, in

Norway.
So in Norway we literally

grouped meetings with 10
restaurants in Oslo, the capital

of Norway, went up there, had
them taste the products.

And before we were done with the
tasting, we had the first 4-5

potential order, but we didn't
have any distributor, we didn't

have any importer, and then we
couldn't really fulfill the

orders.
Then we had to find an importer

and we managed to find a good
one that had heard that we were

in town.
So we managed to set that up and

get started.
But that also LED us to see or

let me to see that if we had the
distribution in place, the

ability to distribute directly
to the restaurants, then we

could just have gone there, have
done the tasting exactly as we

were doing in our Hallmark and
then have shipped the the

products from the winery back to
what you just said.

And that's, that's what led to
the idea of founding a, the

direct beverage distribution
company, which became B Makers.

And the idea with B Makers is to
allow brands to build bottom up

because I, I very much as as
you, Chris, believe in that

approach.
Enter market, start building

yourself.
Don't think that anyone can do

it better than you because
usually that's not the cake.

So, so with B Makers, we built
this direct favorites

distribution company where our
brand partners can can sign up

and then they can start
distributing in a number of the

European countries.
Let's dive into this because

this is very interesting.
So you you mentioned that great

example now like and you know,
like, I guess it happens the

same in other countries.
So like, you know, going to Oslo

or it could be Stockholm or you
know, like this would be one of

the things that I always discuss
is about, you know, like while

you are building demand nowadays
is not anymore, as you know, 100

years ago when you know, my
great grandfather was was a

wholesaler, you know, like the
the the product, you know,

people see it on social media.
People will see OK in

Copenhagen, there is this
winery.

You know, I would love to get a
bottle now so that that is the

easy link to get into the
market.

And then you get 5 chefs in
Stockholm and three in Berlin

and two in Oslo, you know,
interested in the product.

No.
And then, of course, I would

assume that that is the actual
issue for going broad instead

of, you know, narrow and deep.
No, of many brand owners,

because then all of a sudden
you've got OK, like I got one

importer to serve these people.
I got another importer to sell

these people.
And then all of a sudden,

before, you know, you've got
like 7-8 markets and you haven't

even cracked, you know, your
home turf.

So that creates that that that
issue.

So I'm interested to know, like
to give a real example of

Anderson Winery as a brand that
works with B makers in that

sense.
So like when when you go into

lake home, for example, or
another another city that you

may think you know, how does
that facilitate building from

the bottom up into the on trade
of another city in another

country?
Yeah, yeah.

So Stockholm is is a is a great
example.

When Allison Winery entered the
Stockholm, one of my Co founders

of France who's in charge of the
sales, we went to Stockholm,

booked the meetings with I think
8 or 10 restaurants again over a

three day period.
Then we shipped the sample

bottles up to our hotel in
Stockholm with B Makers.

We could handle all of the
excise duties and the actual

shipping and everything so that
it was completely done after the

book, so to say.
And then we could go around and

visit the restaurants, do the
tastings, talk to the sommeliers

and tell our story exactly as we
would do when we started out

back in Denmark with the
Michelin star restaurants or top

restaurants here in Denmark.
And then you build this

relationship directly with the
Somalis or with the owners of

the restaurants.
And just as importantly, you get

a lot of feedback as to what
works in this market because as

you know very well, Chris, the
the markets are not necessarily

the same.
A top restaurant in Sweden

doesn't necessarily have the
same focus as a top restaurant

in Denmark or in Berlin or in
Paris for that matter.

So it's important to to
understand what drives them.

In Sweden, for example, we've
seen that a lot of the better

restaurants are even more
focused on fruit wines and other

alternative wines than than even
what we've seen in in

Copenhagen, Denmark.
And that's obviously one of the

things we can then use when we
go after the next restaurants

and the next again, that we have
a better understanding of the

local market and what drives the
conversations in the restaurants

and with their customers.
And just as importantly, when

there's then, you know, interest
in the restaurant and they're

saying, listen, I could, I could
easily see how this sparking

rhubarb wine would work with my
upcoming menu.

Then via bee makers, we could
ship the wines directly from the

winery to the restaurant in
Stockholm in two to three days.

And then we could handle all of
the excise duties and all the

paperwork or bee makers would do
that.

So for Anniston Winery, it
allows them to sell directly to

restaurants in other countries
and ship directly from the

winery without having all of the
hassle of having to stock the

products with a traditional
importer and convincing them to

stock the products so that you
could deliver to to the

restaurant.
It basically allows us to go

into only a few select
restaurants in Stockholm, for

example, to start with, and then
just slowly start building

demands.
And then the next quarter you go

and visit again and visit some
new restaurants, visit some of

your existing restaurants.
And that comes back to the

conversation from before about
having new products, you know,

collections for spring and for
fall because then you have

something relevant to come back
with.

So you don't mess with, with
this model, you don't

necessarily need to have people
employed on the ground that are

there 24/7.
You could easily come to

Stockholm 3-4 days every quarter
and then do your work, visit the

restaurants, get some FaceTime
and the rest of it you can

handle by e-mail, by video
conversations.

You can even send tasting
bottles up, have a, a video

tasting with the somebody.
So you know, the days where you

had to be present and come by
once every week to, to continue

to have the relationship.
I think they're over.

Even the sommeliers and the
bartenders don't have time for

that anymore.
And you can easily manage these

relationships from abroad.
Wow, this is very fascinating.

It's like as what team entering
the, you know, the country with

a few cases, they got their
weapons, you know, shipped

beforehand and they get into the
game.

Now when we started chatting,
the interesting thing for me was

that you are taking the bottom
up approach to its core now

because it's OK like I didn't
you know, like a lot of people

are complaining about the drinks
ego system.

I was like, OK, it's difficult
to work with importers, it's

difficult to work with
wholesalers and so on.

What I like about what you're
saying is that regardless if you

go with an importer or with a
wholesaler, or if we go with the

solution like B makers is, you
know, like in a, in a more

direct way, you still have to do
that groundwork anyway, you

know, because this is one of the
big misconceptions about our

industry now that, you know,
they may see, OK, B makers is

it's something for people that
want to do it by themselves, but

you know, I prefer to do it with
an importer.

So they discard that kind of
solution because they think that

then the importer is going to do
the the work of those people

that they were doing the tasting
and so on.

But that actually doesn't really
happen because, you know, like

that there are many layers of
people that are involved into

the ecosystem.
And if you don't build the

demand, then you try to convert
that demand in that city.

Like it you go back to the
situation that you had in what

you were explaining Copenhagen
and then, you know, then there

is a misalignment in the
expectations about volume or

about what you can do skills
and, you know, the skill set of

the sales team of the wholesaler
or of the importer.

So it, it's very interesting to
hear this approach because it

cuts, you know, like one of the
layers, so to say, in, in which

people are struggling and then
they're saying like, OK, like

actually, no, I'm, I'm shipping
to an importer because that's my

only way to get into that
particular country.

But, and, and then they end up
in having the wrong importer

because they have to do it very
quickly.

They need to appoint it super
quickly.

And then all of a sudden they
get stuck, whether there is an

exclusivity or not, they get
stuck into a sick relationship.

It's a little bit like, you
know, if somebody wants to get

married in a in a rush now and
then you, you know, you may get

lucky for the husband or wife
or, or you may get stuck and,

you know, lead to a divorce
after, after a few months of

marriage.
And I think there's a, there's a

lot of different points in this
whole value chain.

I try to always understand the
incentives of the wholesalers,

of the importers, of the
distributors.

And it's clear for a brand like
Amazon, I mean it, it's an

uphill battle to getting that
started in a new market.

I know that as a producer
because I've done it myself in

multiple markets.
So you cannot as a producer or

as a brand owner expect that a
good distributor will take you

in and do that work because you
own the brand.

So you have the rights to the
brand in the long term.

But if someone is to build your
brand in the new market and they

know the definition that they'll
most likely not have it for the

long term, they'll they'll do it
for the short term.

So then you cannot expect them
to put the same resources into

building the brands.
We work with the around 200

brands in the B Makers and, and
what we see is that they can

start up a new market and then
when they have the the first key

customers in place, they've
started to build the brand, get

a little bit of attention.
Then one, they can go out and

contact distributors because
then it's more likely that a

distributor will actually want
to work with them because they

already have some sort of a
presence in the market.

But also in, in addition to, to
contacting distributors, they

also often have distributors
contact them because now

suddenly they have seen that
they are in a few of the nicer

bars.
They are on social media because

they might have built their own
D2CE commerce channel via B

maker.
So they might have, might have

launched on Amazon or via one of
the channel that we allow them

to work in.
And then suddenly they start

getting attention from
distribution.

And so it's, so it's really a
win win for the brand because

they get started, but also for
the distributor, because the

distributor takes over one of
these brands, then there's

already something to, to build
on instead of having to start

from scratch.
And so it's basically this from

zero to 1.
And that's why I love when

you're talking about how to sell
the first bottle and the the

first case because it's, it's
exactly this we see here that no

distributor would, would ever
take you in if you haven't done

some of the groundwork yourself.
To your point about stocking

your product with the wrong
distributor, I mean again, when,

when you think about the the
incentive of the distribution,

then they are often likely to
take as little as possible

because they want to see that
it's, it actually starts moving

before they buy more.
But with B Maker, some of our

newest brand partners for
example, or we also working with

one of the biggest distilleries
out of India, they are using our

warehouses in Europe to stock
their product and then they can

very easily and rapidly supply a
distributor in a European

country or a restaurant or even
a consumer.

So to us it doesn't really
matter who they're selling to,

but they use our fulfillment
centers to have their products

readily available in Germany and
Denmark and Sweden and so on.

And that also means that a
distributor doesn't necessarily

need to take a big chance on
buying a multiple pallets or

from the brand because they can
start with lower quantities and

then see that the products start
rotating.

The we're trying to take the
risk out of it also for the

distribution in a way that's how
I like to see it at least.

And that's what we hear, that's
the feedback we're getting from

our.
And that's, yeah.

And that's very cool to hear
because, you know, like it's one

of the topics that are very dear
to me is that, you know, the,

the, you know, seeing the drinks
industry as an ecosystem.

No, because it's not about
finding the, the solution to

kind of like bypass parties.
It's more like if the way I see

the, the ecosystem is that if,
if everybody adds value to the

chain.
That's why it's called Valley

chain.
Then it makes sense.

But then if you are taking away
value or not adding any value,

then why should I pay you that,
that stake?

So for me, you know, like I'm,
I'm very much welcoming, you

know, the direct to consumer,
the, the importing, the

wholesaling, you know, because
if everybody has their own way,

then all of a sudden, you know,
one person is doing a little bit

more of a demand building,
another one is actually

capturing that demand.
Another one is building and

capturing at the same time, you
know, like if all are playing,

you know, it's very nice to work
all together on this.

But then the issue, and I guess
that was your drive was to

basically like not having to
wait for that importer.

Because it's like if I have 1015
restaurants in Stockholm or in

Oslo or in Helsinki that want my
product, why the hell, you know,

like I can ship it to them.
And we just because I was given

the name of five importers and
none of them are interested or

they're not answering or they
may have other products already

in the range with exclusivity
and they cannot do it.

So how can I do that?
And also what I like about this

is the fact that it, there's a
lot of misconception about this,

you know, bottom up at top down
in in the sense that the

logistic is actually top down,
but the brand building must

happen bottom up.
So the issue many, many times is

that people misunderstand this
and because they think that the

logistic is happening top down,
which it is, then they think

that the brand building should
happen top down through the

import, through the wholesaler,
down to the bar.

But it's not like this anymore
because you know, with social

media, with websites, with
podcasts, like you are building

the demand already wider than
you can actually serve.

So if you if you don't manage to
capture that, you know, it's, it

becomes very challenging.
When you're building the brand

puppy building demand, then you
also need to have either have

distribution in place in the
markets that you're building in

or you need to have basically a
bottom up distribution platform,

right?
And that's how I like to think

about what we do with B Maker
that we basically empower the

brand owners to have more
control and to move faster.

It's all about going out and
building that demand.

That's where it starts.
But as we saw ourselves with the

Anniston Winery brand when
entering Norway, I mean, if you

don't have distribution, then
you literally cannot supply

those custom.
So it doesn't make sense to

build demand if you don't have
your supply chain or your

distribution under control,
because then you would literally

have to ship bottles up there
without paying excise duties.

And and that's illegal as as we
know.

So it doesn't really make sense
to me to build demand if you

don't have distribution in
place.

But it's very difficult to find
a good distributor if demand is

not there.
So it's a little bit of a

chicken in.
An egg.

Situation that we just tried to
solve by saying, hey, wouldn't

it be wonderful if you could
self distribute all over Europe

and then when you are going and
you have the first demand in

place, then you can decide to
work with a distributor instead

of doing it yourself.
Or if you have a distributor in

the market and you want to take
it in house, then you can take

your distribution back and do it
yourself.

But it doesn't have to be static
and it doesn't have to be either

or.
With the Amazon brand, for

example, we have a wonderful
distribution partner in

Switzerland that we're working
with.

So that's a traditional
distributor that imports the

products, sell them.
We go there once in a while,

help build demand as we all know
it.

But Sweden, in contrast,
everything is done direct

without a distributor sitting in
between.

So it doesn't have to be either
or and it can also easily change

over time.
You can start building directly

and then move to a distributor
or as we have done recently in

Norway, start working with a
distributor and then take it

back in house to continue
building.

And that's what I think will
happen in the future, that the

the value chain will be much
more diverse and there'll be

more options for working in
different markets and different

channels at the same time.
It's very interesting what

you're saying because I mean, I
see it even here in Prague, for

example, you know, some bars,
you know, like I see some

bottles of brands that I have
contacts from, you know, like

from the podcast or from
LinkedIn and so on.

And then sometimes I take a
photo and I say, oh, wow, you

know, like, I didn't know you're
here in Prague.

And it's like, I didn't know
either.

Because sometimes, you know,
that part of the good demand

building that, you know, a
bartender that may be used to

work in, I don't know, London or
New York.

The invisible hand of
distribution will find its way

to that back bar, you know,
somehow then whether it's like

it's neat in the country or or
not.

But what I like about this is
that you know, like in how to

really build this bottom up
demand and top down shipments in

a nice way so that you know, you
can actually make the most of

what works for you.
As you rightfully said, it

really depends on the market.
It depends.

It depends on the connection
that you have because one other

point that we didn't mention is
that there is also another

misconception in the industry
that you can avoid being in the

market.
No.

So The thing is that if you
don't have the money or the time

to be in the market, you have to
pay someone else to be in that

market for you because, you
know, demand doesn't really

happen by the Holy Spirit.
The thing is that you need to

build the the width of demand by
doing podcasts and articles and

PR and then social media and so
on.

But then you also need to be
present into the market.

Now when I discussed this in
other episodes, you know, like I

was discussing with David Wood,
the wholesaler in the UK, you

know, we were talking about, you
know, the importance, for

example, of the founder of the
brand to travel to that market

and show their face and being
visible now.

So if you cannot do that, then
you need to have like those kind

of situation like, you know,
brand ambassadors and so on.

But then at the same time, there
is also a need for either a

budget, you know, either AAMP or
time.

And you know, and when I
discussed this, the same, you

know, like with for example,
with Mink Kogoski and from Acura

distillery in, in Finland, you
know, like one of the founders

went to Chicago and moved there
for a while.

He moved to Berlin for a while
to really be present into the

market.
No.

And then what you were saying
before, you know, you doesn't

matter if you do it as a
commuter.

You know, I, I also, I also was
commuting when I was living in

Copenhagen, you know, like I was
living there like Monday to

Thursday.
But you know, you can do it

weekly, you can do it quarterly,
you can do it monthly.

But you need to have a plan that
works for you and works for your

brand, and you need to have a
solution that enables you to

have the product available when
you need it.

I think you have a, you have a
very, very important point in

that demand doesn't build
itself.

So just by having distribution
in places such as B makers or if

you're working with a a
distributor, I mean you still

need to build demand, you need
to be there in the market

somehow.
And that's what we say to also

to all of the brand partners we
work with that yes, we can

facilitate that.
You can have your products

available in Denmark, Norway,
Sweden, Germany, France,

Netherlands, Austria, etcetera.
We can do that.

We can make sure that we you can
reach consumers, you can reach

on trade off trade via multiple
channels.

Absolutely we can do that.
But that doesn't ensure that the

consumer or the sommelier or the
bartender actually buys your

product that you have to do.
And there's no one better than

the founder or the founding team
or the the brand owner to build

that demand and to tell that
story.

So in that sense, B Makers is
not any different from working

with a traditional distributor
in that sense.

But it's so important that that
the brand owners understand that

they need to be there.
Either it's their own time or,

you know, they have to pay
someone to spend their time on

actually going out and building
demands.

Yeah, I agree.
And I mean, now I was, I was

smiling because it came back the
paragon of the of the gym.

Now that it's very dear to me
because I'm I need to sign up to

the gym again.
And you know, like that, you

know, basically you are taking
the people to the gym in another

country.
Like the membership is there.

You know, this is the door.
I know I took you to the

counter.
Now you've got towels and

sneakers, but now you have to go
in and train yourself.

So then you may want to have a
personal trainer in that gym or

you may want to train by
yourself in that gym in the

other country.
But you know, I took you here

and I cannot do it for you.
You know, like now it's, it's

your muscles, you know, like I,
I cannot, I cannot do biceps on

your behalf.
So whether you want to do it by

yourself because you are
trained, because you have

already won in your home turf,
so you know how to do push ups

and you know and use machinery
or you want to have a you know

you are a newbie and you want to
have a personal trainer telling

you how to use the equipment in
the gym.

But nevertheless, you know now
you are at the gym and now no

excuses, you have to enter and
train.

That's a brilliant analogy and
and that's also what we see with

the partners that we work with
that are most successful.

They are usually the ones that
have understand what it take to

build a brand and actually to
build demands.

We've come across some great
distilleries that make great

product, but that doesn't
doesn't really want to go out

and do the sales part to the
brand building, go and visit

customers and that usually
doesn't work.

What works is if you have
someone that has tried it

before, either working for one
of the big players in the

industry so they know what it
what it means to build a brand

build demand.
Or if it's someone that has

worked in a different industry
with the same thing that you're

building a brand building
demand.

They are usually the most
successful ones with the

platform and the app are like
the makers.

But I think also in in general
terms, I think they're also the

most successful ones working
with the traditional distributor

because it doesn't come by
itself.

I mean, it's a hard work.
You need to get out there every

day.
You need to push your customers

forward.
You need to build the brand.

There's so many things you need
to do to make it fly.

And if you don't understand
that, and if you're not ready to

do the work, I mean, then the
likelihood of failing is just so

much higher, in my opinion.
What I like about, you know,

what you're saying is that, you
know, you need to be able to

bring the, let's say, the home
thinking abroad because I think

a lot of brands that I talked to
do wrong is that they focus on

the path of least resistance
now.

So they say, OK, like I'm
selling in my own country, my

wholesalers don't get it.
My customers, you know, bars and

restaurants don't get it.
So I'm focusing on, you know,

another country because I see a
nice short term opportunity and

I managed to get into that
country.

And then they start to, you
know, rather than approaching

the challenge in their hometown
and home turf, you know, they

see the grass greener on the
other side.

But then, you know, winter is
coming anyway to that loan, you

know, and the grass is going to
get it's going to get bad

anyway.
Again, it's a little bit like

the gym example.
Now I'm I'm very passionate

because I will I will go the
train today.

And when you want to buy a lot
of like fancy gears from, you

know, like cool brands and you
want to have the best shorts and

the best sneakers and, you know,
looking good at the gym.

But you know, instead of
actually going like in and say,

like, you know, I could bloody
go and train, you know, like

whatever you have like with your
old sweatpants and it doesn't

really matter.
Nobody's looking at you.

You're not that good looking yet
anyway.

So like, nobody's going to focus
on how cool your T-shirts are in

in that gym.
You know, go and train at the

gym.
And don't blame the gym that is

too hot and the gym that is not
open at 5:00 AM when you wanted

to go because they open at 7:00.
And at 8, you're already

starting to work and and it's
the fault of the gym owner.

And you know, I know finding all
these excuses now because as you

said, like, no, nobody's going
to love your brand like you do.

But also, nobody is going to see
it so relevant as your people in

that country, you know, like, so
if you are a Danish winery, if

you don't succeed in Denmark,
you know, it's useless to try

and pitch other countries trying
to be to, to bypass the

challenge, you know, because
like a win in Denmark, because

that's where you are relevant.
That's when you know people will

understand what you're doing.
You are local, you are much

easier to be shipped.
You have faster reactions.

You can go there.
They can you can bring them to

visit the winery, you know,
which is obviously more

challenging when you have to buy
a flight or a train ticket from

from abroad to those people.
So, you know, we there and then

go into the export market with
those precious learnings of what

has worked and what hasn't
worked.

And then you adjusted to what
you were rightfully saying about

the example of Stockholm or
Oslo.

You know, like there may be some
SKU's that perform better in

that place because from a taste
profile, they love those fruits

or those vegetables a bit more.
It could be more attention to

drinking, you know, to the
pairing than in your home

country.
But those are the Pareto 20%

part of the 80% which is, you
know actually go in there

building demand, converting the
demand and and sustaining that

that demand.
And we've at least seen with

Anderson, but also with all of
the brands we work with that we

always recommend that people
focus on their home market

first.
I usually say three or four

times more expensive to sell a
bottle abroad than at home just

for the good reasons that you
mentioned here.

I mean, it's simply easier to go
down the street and visit the

restaurant or liquor store or
have a consumer visiting for

your winery or your distillery.
And so selling at home is much

more easy and that's there's no
good reason for going abroad

until you have your home market
under control and all the

learnings you have at home, you
can apply to some extent exactly

as you say in export market.
And then you have the ability,

of course, because that's the
positive thing that it's never

been easier to build your brands
with social media and so on.

And we always recommend that
start with starting with the

D2C, basically setting up an
e-commerce platform so that you

can sell, for example, to
consumers in brands on Germany

and so on.
And then in the most markets or

some markets, you can do social
media, start building a little

bit of interest, see how that
actually works.

And you can ship directly from
one of our warehouses or from

your own facility when you have
an order.

And then you slowly start
building demand in a new market

directly towards consumers.
And then the beauty of it is

that when you then start
approaching on trade or even off

trade, then you have some
relevance already.

And then usually the first
people that see all these ads

that you put up on Instagram and
Facebook, because they're, yeah,

they're of course interested in
wine and spirit.

You can get this little snowball
rolling in a new market.

And, and using all of the
experiences that you have from

your home market, we also
usually see that it's easier to

start with one new export market
instead of just blasting it out

all over Europe.
You might choose to open up

e-commerce all over Europe, but
then, you know, it's not like

demands then just starts picking
up.

Then you need to start building
demands.

And if you're using social
media, for example, then it's

pretty clear that you get the
most bang for the bucks if you

focus on one country or one
region.

So focus narrow to start driving
demand and to have people see

your brand multiple times.
And then obviously, if you

combine that social media direct
to consumer brand building with

actually going to Berlin, for
example, and visiting

restaurants, then you, you
slowly start getting some of the

same traction that you already
have in your home market that

you have then spent years
building and learning and so on.

And then what we see is that you
can often do it faster because

you're leveraging the, the
experience that you have from

your home market and doing the
things that work there.

And then twisting it slightly
could be that you focus slightly

on, on different products or
slightly different buying

profile.
But you know, as you say, 80% of

it is probably what you have at
home already.

And then you just modify it
slowly to to be successful.

Now that's, that's super
precious advice because also

what I liked about this thing
with the D2C is also that you

can get a better understanding
of those consumers like on kind

of what does it, you know, what
sales, you know, like, and then

all of a sudden it's like 80% of
my sales are this particular

SKU, you know, or, or maybe if
they're interested, you send

them a form, you know, to answer
some questions for you.

And then you all of a sudden
you've got 10 people, you know,

answering question.
And, and there is always this

thing with big data and you
know, like, you know, big data

is nice, but also like small
data is also nice.

You can start with this
qualitative feedback and then

you will scale it down to a
bigger research if needed.

You know, but you know, in the
beginning, you know, you also

look like, you know, much better
the market.

You know, like if you, if you've
got those 10 consumer that are

buying, then when you have the
conversation with the importer

or with those bars, you know,
you can ask them where would

they like to have that bottle,
you know, and drink that bottle

in that country.
And you know, they basically

would act as your ambassadors
and your insights, you know,

providers, you know, and you
know, like in, in a, it's, it's

this small iterations that I see
more and more helping with brand

building, you know, with any
category and anything's.

I mean, I see it myself with my
own podcast and and so on, you

know, like it's, it's this small
trial and errors that actually

make make the most of the brand
building exercise, you know,

before, you know, focusing on
the issues and everything that

we discussed now.
And I think also looking back,

we, we started Anniston Winery
almost 10 years ago.

Obviously, we, we didn't know
all of this from the start.

I mean, we just thought it would
be cool to build something based

on Venice fruits and berries and
build a premium, premium wine

brand.
But then you learn along the way

and you figure out that, OK,
this occasion here is very

interesting or if we move over
here, we can do something.

But the point is really, if you
don't get started, then you

don't get those learnings, you
know, and it doesn't come

overnight.
And you cannot sit there and

analyze everything upfront, even
if you have the most data and

the biggest models and all that
crap.

I mean, you need to get out
there in the market and meet

real customer and talk to them.
You constantly talk, which I

like about going to the bar,
talking to the bar tend to see

how people consume the products,
what are they drinking,

etcetera, etcetera.
And that it just resonate so

well.
And that's where I think most

brand builders really need to
start, you know, get started.

Because if you don't get
started, then you you don't

learn anything.
And you need to get out there

to, to learn something.
You cannot just hide inside the

distillery of the winery, even
though you like to produce your

precious product.
I mean, you need to get out

there.
Exactly, you know, that's,

that's, that's great.
So let's, I think it was a super

interesting conversation.
I, I want to give you some space

to leave your details on, you
know, how can people contact you

and find out more about Anderson
Winery and, and, and be makers

should they be interested in any
sort of cooperation with you.

Yeah, absolutely.
So honest and winery.

You can look up at the
honestwinery.com.

Same for B Megas, B megas.com on
on dime.

And then obviously I'm available
on LinkedIn and and so are the

my two companies and I'm more
than happy to to, you know,

exchange ideas if there's
anything I can help with.

I'm generally flexible.
So just hit me up on LinkedIn

and I usually reply quite fast.
Fantastic, fantastic.

So thanks a lot Morton.
It was a great pleasure and lots

of insights also for myself to
embed into my my own

methodologies.
So thanks a lot for your for

your contribution.
Brilliant.

Thank you, Chris.
It's a pleasure to to be here.

Thank you.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode 70 and 71, so feel free

to listen to both.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, please leave a
review, share it with friends

and remember that brands are
built bottom U.