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Where food opens the door to conversations about craft, culture & tradition.
TWK Ep 2 Sandor Katz
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Tiffany Bader: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Wild Kitchen. I'm Tiffany Bader. Now, if you've ever had an interest in fermentation, I'm sure you've heard of today's guest, Sandor Katz. Now, early in my career as a chef, I picked up his book, wild Fermentation in 2003, and it completely changed the way I approached the subject. It demystified the fermentation of food and removed my fear.
Now armed with the information in wild fermentation, I made my first batch of sauerkraut and have been an avid fermentor ever since. Oh, welcome, Sandor. Thank you very much for joining me here today.
Sandor Katz: Okay, well, it's my pleasure to be here and, um, that makes me feel so good that, um, you know, my, my book was, uh, was, was was useful to you and influenced you.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, it was, it was, it was a massive, uh. A change in perspective on, on fermentation and food and took this very science-based sort of perspective on all these [00:01:00] things going on in the food and really brought it down to a just easy level to, for people to understand. And it was, it was really, really helpful for me.
Sandor Katz: Well, I, I think that this is a really interesting aspect of people's perception. Of fermentation, you know, be, be, be. I mean, certainly, you know, the science of microbiology has, you know, given us a much clearer understanding of what's happening during fermentation. And, you know, personally I'm really grateful to have y you know, this scientific insight into what's happening during the process of fermentation.
But the hilarious thing to me is, you know, the idea that like people project, um. Uh, you know, upon fermentation that it's highly technical, that it's potentially dangerous, that you need very specialized knowledge or equipment when you know, in fact, fermentation is ancient. And our ancestors in every part of the [00:02:00] world, you know, figured out the fermentation practices that we're doing.
Um, like nobody's really invented any new fermentation processes since the time of microbiology. Um, you know, but, um, uh, so, you know, you don't need to be a microbiologist to have a microscope, to have a laboratory. Um, you know, most fermentation is really simple and straightforward, and people have been doing it for longer than we've been recording history in, you know, just the simplest of, um, uh, uh, kitchens.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, it's, it's funny, it's, I I think I saw a clip of you on social media recently, and you were just, you were at a farm market or, or fair or something, and you're like, just, you know, like take sauerkraut and you chop it off and you add salt and you squish it down in a jar and it's like, it's for, for so many people, it, it, I mean, it should be that simple, right?
Like, obviously work clean and wash your hands and use a clean crock to put it in. But really we're just talking about taking vegetables. [00:03:00] Squishing them up with some salt in, in a lot of cases, and just letting, letting the work. You know, do itself all on its own without our interaction.
Sandor Katz: Well, and I mean, and that's where this like projection comes in.
Because in reality, you know, something like making sauerkraut is like incredibly simple. Like you shred vegetables, you salt them, the salt draws juice out of them. You can speed up that process by pounding or squeezing the vegetables a little bit. Once they're juicy, you just pack them into a jar or a crock or a bucket or whatever you're, you're using as a vessel.
And it just like, it couldn't be simpler. And yet, because we've all been sort of taught to have this fear of bacteria, um, uh, you know, people imagine that there's some secret to it. And if you don't do everything precisely right, then you know, maybe you'll get some dangerous bacteria growing. And you know, I mean, ultimately the [00:04:00] anxiety is like, how can I be sure this is gonna, you know, be good bacteria and not some dangerous bacteria that might.
Make me sick or even kill somebody. And so like, you know, many, many people are like projecting all of this generalized anxiety about bacteria onto the idea of fermentation, when in fact fermentation makes food safer. When you thread the vegetables, get them juicy, get them submerged. Give them, you know, a a a handful of days to ferment.
They become more acidic. And if you happen to have some cells of salmonella, e coli, other organisms that could potentially make you sick and are sometimes found on raw vegetables, and basically the vegetables get safer than they are raw after you ferment them. Um, because acidity, um, kills most of the organisms that we would associate with illness or food poisoning.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, I find it really funny. I mean, as a North [00:05:00] American, do you, do you see North America as a particularly sort of backwards view on, on ing our senses and, and, and that whole fermentation process and, and seeing that as a safe way to preserve food?
Sandor Katz: Well, I don't think the US is unique in, in that regard.
Um, you know, I mean. Uh, but I mean, you know, cer certainly like that is, that's very widespread and there are, you know, there are a lot of people around the world, um, you know, in different places, not just in the US who, uh, you know, have this real anxiety, uh, uh, about this. And yet simultaneously, you know, like in many different parts of the world, um, you also have.
People who have just been like sort of our recipients of continuous traditions. And so like, you know, ma, many of these traditions are alive and people who are like, you know, learning from their, learning from their [00:06:00] mother, learning from their grandmother, you know, how to do something that people have just been doing, you know, within the family as a, you know, annual ritual of food preservation.
Um, um. So, you know, the, we have to be able to hold these things simultaneously, that there are, you know, sort of living traditions that are continuing uninterrupted. And there's all kinds of people who have been completely severed from these traditions and are trying to find their, their way back. And then of course.
There's plenty of people who have no interest at all.
Tiffany Bader: I, I find it funny that people that, like you said, there's that severing of, of traditions and actually doing it themselves. They'll drink the beer and drink the wine and don't, but you know, they have a jug of milk in the fridge and if they don't notice, smell it, or they don't trust their senses anymore.
Right. It's. Yeah, I, I see people quite a bit, um, on forums talking about fermentation and, oh, I made this ssl, it's got [00:07:00] this mold on top, or this mold, is this good or is this bad? It's just, it's really, I find it interesting people having to relearn what's good, what's bad. Trusting, trusting their senses, knowing when something's off, you eat it and it's, it tastes terrible.
It's, yeah, it's, it's off, right?
Sandor Katz: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I mean, particularly in regards to, you know, how long can you keep food, you know, that you purchase, like, you know, all food that you buy has some sort of Best Buy date stamped on it, but you know, a lot of people just don't realize how. Arbitrary that is. And you know, if the, if the container of yogurt has been sitting in your fridge and you get to that date, you really don't have to throw it away just 'cause you got to that date.
You know, if there's nothing, nothing bad that you can see going on. Uh, uh, or, or that you could smell going on. Don't worry about it. But, you know, the issue with yogurt is it'll slowly get more acidic in your refrigerator. It will get safer as a result [00:08:00] of getting, developing this stronger flavor that can happen over time.
Um, so yeah, I mean, I think that. You know, I mean, part of it is, part of it is learning, you know, when it comes to like surface growth, I mean, that's, if you have no experience with it, that can be, uh, you know, that can be, um, scary. Uh, you know, I don't know how much sauerkraut has been thrown away because of like a little, you know, film of calm yeast developing on the surface.
And it's, it's really harmless. I mean, I had a hilarious experience in China where. We were visiting this V Vast restaurant with like 500 seats in it, and the chef realized we were interested in pickles and he like put on a jacket, took us around the corner and we visited this little pickle shack and he wanted to show us his fermenting long beans, but none of his big a hundred liter crocs were labeled.
So he had, he opened up all these crocs trying to find the long beans, and all of them had this like web of calm yeast on the surface. And we are [00:09:00] videotaping and he's just mixing it in. It just would never occur to him that anyone would find that, um, disturbing. Um, uh, whereas, you know, I mean chefs in the US if you, you know, if you tried to like, you know, videotape them with their ferments, you know, they would be horrified for anyone to see them removing calm yeast or anything like that.
But, you know, these, these, um, you know, sort of superficial. Aerobic life forms that tend to develop on the surface of the ferments are really, really harmless. And, um, you know, I, I encourage people to not panic about them, not throw away their crock, their, their, their whole crock of, uh, a crowd. Just try to skim off as much as you can from the surface.
And when some of it dissipates, try not to panic and worry about it. It's totally harmless.
Tiffany Bader: I think, I think I might have mortified my friends the other day. I, uh, told them that I was eating yogurt that had a, a may expiry date on it, and it's [00:10:00] now. October and they, they just shook their heads at me. I was like, but it didn't smell bad.
It was totally fine. It tasted fine. There's nothing wrong with it.
Sandor Katz: Well, you know, my personal best dumpster diving experience was at a Trader Joe's and they must have just gone through the whole cheese department and just gotten rid of everything that was expiring that day. And it was just the most beautiful hall of delicious cheese.
And, uh, you know, every single piece of it was, um. Was still delicious and edible.
Tiffany Bader: Well, I, yeah, I, I think we, we trust a little too much in, in companies that are designed to make money instead of providing us with food that's healthy and safe. And I think it's what you're doing to, to allow people to believe in their own senses and trust those senses is, is fantastic.
Now, are there things that, um. That are sort of hard and fast rules for this is, this is bad for people starting out, getting, getting into it. Like if, if I made sauerkraut [00:11:00] and it was, there was like a red mold and everything was mushy, you know? Or are there things there that you're like, yeah.
Sandor Katz: So usually what's growing on the top of people's sauerkraut isn't mold at all.
It's a kind of a yeast called calm yeast. So, you know, the whole, um, you, you know, your whole objective when you're fermenting vegetables is to get the vegetables submerged. And what submerging the vegetables does is it protects them from a constant flow of air and oxygen. But unless you have some. You know, very specially designed kind of vessel.
There's always gonna be some air circulation at the surface. And so, um, you, you know, uh, um, underneath the surface, the lactic acid bacteria are definitely always becoming dominant and producing lactic acid. But on the top, uh, where it comes into contact with oxygen, other things can grow. Typically, the first thing that will grow is this is what's called a calm yeast, and it can appear anything [00:12:00] from like a.
Um, uh, like a little sort of, uh, like opaque, um, layer that develops. Sometimes it looks a little webby. Sometimes it can get really dense and almost look like, like, um, um, a desert, just like sort of waves of dunes or something that's, uh, got a beige color, but that, that is totally harmless. Just remove that.
Try not to worry about it at all. Now, occasionally people get white molds. Also, I would consider this on, in that context, to be harmless. So I would remove the white mold. You know, if you're fermenting beets, your white mold is gonna have a little bit of a pink. Pigment. Um, but you know, uh, you know, anything that's monochromatic like a white mold or if you, if you fail to remove it and it matures, it'll get a little gray and darker patches.
I remove that. Um, if you get bright colored molds, that's a whole different [00:13:00] thing. I mean, there do exist molds in this world that can create terribly toxic byproducts, and so you can't be. Casual about molds in general. So, no. I mean, the scenario you laid out a bright colored mold, throw it away. But let me tell you that in the 35 years of doing this, I've never experienced that.
I think you know that that would only come after a long period of neglect. I mean, there are always other things that would develop first and whatever you see, develop, you know, try, try to remove it. I mean, it's never, it's never beneficial to the process, even if it's um, even if it's harmless. And if you let those molds that sometimes develop, really develop, what they consume is lactic acid.
So they are de acidifying your fermentation. And the acidity is exactly what's keeping it. Um, uh, uh, um, safe. So, um, uh, you know, you wanna remove mold if you see it. Um, as long as it's in that monochromatic [00:14:00] range, try not to panic about it. Um, and, you know, in, in the, you know, rare case that you might end up with some bright color mold, then just throw the whole thing away.
The much more likely prob problem. Like the worst problems that I've had with fermenting vegetables is when you fail to adequately protect it from flies, and then some fly lands in it lays its eggs. And then when you go to like dig out your sauerkraut, you have little like wormy maggots crawling out. So you gotta really, really protect them from um, flies.
And you know, back in the early days, like if you have an early edition of wild fermentation, I might have. Been showing people just like draping a cloth over the top. Now I always use a string and I'll always just secure it, make it tight so nothing can fly under there and, and, uh, and, and, and, and get in there.
Tiffany Bader: So do you prefer that, like the sort of gentle draping of cloth and then securing it down [00:15:00] or just screwing down a, a lid over like airlocks or,
Sandor Katz: it just depends what, what size vessel I'm using. Um, so, okay. Like, here's a, here's a jar of long beans. These are fermented long beans. I just did them in the jar like this.
With the lid on, I do a little bit of like manually loosening it to release pressure in the early days of the fermentation, which is when you get the most carbon dioxide product production and the most, um, pressure building up. Um, you know, this is a batch of um, um, uh, kimchi. That's in a gallon sized jar.
Um, and then this is sauerkraut that I just made yesterday. And then this is in a beautiful ceramic crock. Actually, a woman who I met in, um, in Alaska many years ago gave me this. It's got salmon on it, but see, this one has. An exterior lid that just fits on the top. And then it [00:16:00] also has a sort of like an interior weight.
Um, and this, the, the interior part that sits directly on the vegetables and, and keeps them submerged. That would generically be called a follower. So something that that's actually on the crowd, pressing it down. Um, and in this case it has a hole. Which makes it much easier to grasp it and pull it out. Um, uh, so, um, you know, I don't always do, I also have like a bunch of like the big, um, American style, simple cylindrical crocs that I have, like, you know, uh, three gallon, five gallon, 10 gallon sizes.
So when I use those, I just put like the biggest plate that I can find that fits inside that functions as the follower. Depending on how juicy the thing is, I might put a heavier weight on to, to keep everything pressed down. Either a rock or a jug of water or something like that. [00:17:00] Um, and then I'll drape the whole thing with a finely woven cloth of some sort and, and it around.
Um, yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Is it, is it better to, is it better to try to utilize the juices in the vegetables, um, or. Like, are, are you better off doing that or, or adding brine if, if you don't have enough liquid? Well,
Sandor Katz: I mean, so it, it just, it depends. It, it depends. I mean, I would say when you're working with fresh vegetables and you're shredding them to create lots of surface area in the sauerkraut style.
I, there's no need to add vegetables. To add water. Like if the veggies have been sitting, you know, in refrigerate, in refrigerated warehouse for months and months, it might be drier. There might be lay, I mean, add water if you need to, but you know, in something like kr, adding more water is doing exactly one thing, which is diluting flavor.
Yeah. And if you can, like, if [00:18:00] you can get the vegetables submerged under their own juices, which you always can with fresh vegetables, um, um, you know, the only issue would be the older the vegetables are, the longer they've been refrigerated, the lower their water content will become over time. So that would be so yes.
If you can't get the water outta the vegetables, then you need to add water. Um, you know, then something like the long beans. I mean, if I wanted to chop these into tiny pieces, I could pull juice out of them, but anything you want to leave whole, whether it's long beans or cucumbers, you can't pull the juice out of.
Like a, um, a whole vegetable generally. So then I would always mix a, a brine, but because the brine dilutes the flavor of the vegetables, I'll always add seasonings in. So this has like chilies and it has lots of garlic. Um, so anytime I'm adding a brine in, I'm adding lots of seasonings. And then, you know, kimchi I generally do is a hybrid process where.[00:19:00]
I brine my cabbage first, whether, I mean, sometimes I do it with a whole Napa cabbage head, or if I chop it up either way, I'll soak it in a strong brine solution first for roughly 24 hours. Um, and then I'll drain away that brine solution and I'll mix a spice paste. Usually I, my spice paste begins with, uh, rice flour and water, and I cook them into a, a, a actual paste.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Sandor Katz: And then I'll add my, um, um, uh, dried chili powder to that and I'll add my gar minced garlic to that. Um, and I'll add some ginger to that. And if I'm adding fish sauce, I'll add fish sauce to that. Um, and then I'll mix that with. The drained, uh, uh, of vegetables. So, so you're brining the vegetables, but you're gonna discard most of that water.
But it helps crisp the vegetables up a little bit. It maybe draws [00:20:00] a little bit of the bitterness of the. Um, cruciferous vegetables out, um, you know, and then you proceed with this other, other pace there. You know, if, if there was one message I would leave you and the, the people like listening to your podcast with, it's that there's no singular way to ferment vegetables.
There's just a lot of different traditions that have developed in different places depending on what kinds of vegetables are, are, are, are, are plentiful and, um. You know, you can ferment vegetables in a brine. You can ferment vegetables with dry salting. That's the generic name for the sauerkraut method.
You can make various kinds of paste. You can do other kinds of fer fermentation mediums. You can do perpetual brine. I make these, um, uh, Chinese style, um, uh. Pickled vegetables that I learned how to make in, um, in, um, Sitan province called [00:21:00] Palai. And I basically make a spiced brine and then I just keep on pickling more vegetables in it and taking them out and adding more vegetables than over time.
I have to add more salt, add more, uh, ginger, um, add more black cardamom, add more situ on peppercorns the. Kinds of seasonings that are in it. Um, but you know, there's, there's just, there's not one way of doing it. There's a lot of different ways. And here, I'm just gonna plug my most recent book, uh, the recipe for um, uh, this
Tiffany Bader: one right here.
Sandor Katz: But this is Fermentation Journeys. Um, and it's, you know, it has information about, uh, fermentation processes that I've been learning about in, in, in my travels.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah.
Sandor Katz: Um, yeah.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. It's, uh, it's funny you bring up this book 'cause I, I brought it in. I ha I have all your books, but I brought in this one because I have somewhat an embarrassing story.
Um. I'm gonna say it anyway because who cares? It. [00:22:00] There was a, I ordered this book, it was like a pre-order and you can get it autographed. So in the part where it says, what do you want for your auto or for the, for the note I wrote. This was my suggestion for you, uh, to my greatest inspiration. Thank you for being the lactobacillus brevis in my sauerkraut.
And I said, ha, just joking. But what you wrote, that's not what you wrote. You wrote for Tiffany Wishing you Tasty fermentation. Jodies, uh, it, this is, but this is like, this is an awesome book. I love it. I love the fact that it's, um. It, it's just like, it kind of blew my mind. All these different ways of fermenting things that, I mean, it's just, it, it's, it's amazing and it, it's, a lot of it is very complex, but a lot of, it's really, really simple and easy and accessible for people.
And it, it's, uh, how, how long did it take you to travel around? Like, was this a lifetime of,
Sandor Katz: it's not like I decided like, I'm gonna write this book and then I'm gonna go travel [00:23:00] to, I mean, it's, it's like, you know, I mean. My life has been incredible and like the, the receptiveness to fermentation, the interest in fermentation, the places I get invited to come and teach about fermentation.
And, um, you know, I've just been very lucky that so many of the places that I've visited to teach, the people who've brought me there have wanted to like, show me distinctive, um, uh, fermentations of, of. The places. And so they've like taught me, uh, they, they've brought me places where I've, I've learned a lot about, um, uh, the varieties of, uh, uh, fermentations in the world.
So, I mean, you know, really, like my first international invitation to teach was. I think in 2004. Um, and then it was sort of a slow building from, from there. But you know, now I've, I've, I mean I've probably taught workshops in like 25 countries or something. [00:24:00] Um, so, um, and then, you know, very often I've had hosts who have wanted to like, you know, introduce me to something new or, you know, bring me to meet producers of, uh, you know, some particular kind of food.
So, you know, I mean, it was many years. In, in the building and I, I've sort of had in mind that I would do a book like this eventually, and then, I mean, basically COVID happened and all of my plans got canceled and so I spent, you know, that first COVID year writing, writing this book. But it was all based on experiences that I had already had.
Tiffany Bader: It's, it's funny too, you mention, uh, people you've met in places you've taught. I was speaking with Doina Allen last week. And she made me promise, I told her I was gonna be talking to you. She made me promise that I would say hello from her and she wants you to come over and visit her again soon.
Sandor Katz: Okay, well, Bali Malu, that's a very, that's a very special place.
Bali Malu and I have run into Doina Allen in like the most far from flung places. I think of Doina Allen a [00:25:00] little bit like, where's Waldo?
Tiffany Bader: And she's a pretty amazing lady. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. She's like, you have to you, I promise me you will say hello, Sandra. I was like, I promise I'll say hello. I back at you Darina.
Uh, yeah. That's funny. Oh my gosh. So, so next, next project. Are you, are you. You know, or do you have another book in the works? Are you,
Sandor Katz: I mean, I actually wrote another book that is in, in production, um, uh, uh, right now it's supposed to come out sometime like ne early next year. Um, and it is called, um, uh, fermentation, A Natural History, and it's for a different publisher.
It's called Timber Press. And Timber Press is using. My book, fermentation and Natural History, um, uh, to launch a series of topical natural history books. So it's not really how to cook [00:26:00] anything, but it's trying to sort of explain, you know, um, you know, two generalists, you know, from what is fermentation, why is it practiced everywhere?
You know, what does it illuminate about the natural world?
Tiffany Bader: Wow. That's, that's exciting.
Sandor Katz: Yeah. That's cool. So let's go. So, so that, that, that's in production and coming out and, you know, I'm continuing to, I'm continuing to teach and I'm continuing to ferment here. I'm gonna show you a, like a project that I, I just started the other day.
Um, this is. Um, uh, Chestnut, sheeo, Koji, so, okay. Chestnuts. Um, I mean, it happens that outside of my house are three mature chestnut trees, so I just have like more chestnuts than I know what to do with. And since I've been living here, I've really, you know, been trying to. You know, explore what I can do with them.
Um, so one of the things I do is I, I, I grow Koji. Koji is the [00:27:00] Japanese name for this mold. Aspergillus ore that's really important in fermentation processes all across Asia. I mean, Koji is the Japanese name for it. Uh, it's, uh, chu in Chinese. Uh, um, you know, there's different names in, in, in different traditions, but, um.
Uh, sheeo Koji just means salt koji. So this is the fungus grown on, um, uh, uh, chestnuts, which is like a two day process. Um, and then I basically put the. Moldy pieces of chestnut in a blender with an equal amount of water. So this was like just over three kilos of chestnuts. And so I did just over, just over three liters of water.
I blended them up with water and based on the combined weight, 5% salt. And then I ferment this for about 10 days at, uh, ambient temperatures. [00:28:00] And um, and then I use this as like. A marinate like sheeo. Koji is an amazing marinate because what's powerful about Koji, the reason you know Koji is the engine of foods from sake to soy sauce, to mirin, to miso is because it has all these enzymes and it has amylase enzymes that can break down complex carbohydrates into simple sugars.
And make foods sweeter. It has protease enzymes that can break down, um, proteins into amino acids, and that makes foods richer and more flavorful. I mean, really it's certain amino acids that give rise to the flavor we call umami. The, uh, the Japanese language call calls umami, but it really just makes things more savory and, and, and toothsome and, and richly delicious.
And then there's also, um, lipase enzymes that break down fats into fatty acid. So, you know, whatever you coat with this marinate and leave for a [00:29:00] few hours becomes more. And then of course the marinate has its own delicious flavor, so you can also just use it as a seasoning. But its real power is as a marinate because it has all these enzymes that given a little bit of time will just really make the flavor of food so much richer.
Tiffany Bader: Wow. No. So could you, could you do that with any sort of starchy, uh, grain or nut or seed?
Sandor Katz: I mean, you can, you can, I mean, as it turn, as it's turning out, you can grow Koji on almost anything. I mean, oh, really? You know, the tradition of it in Japan is you grow it on rice, you grow it on soybeans, you grow it on barley.
They, you know, in, in the Japanese tradition, there's a limited range of substrates that you would grow this on. You know, once you go beyond Japan, there's some other ones. I mean, in China they'll, they, they, they grow fungus on broad beans, like, uh, fava beans. For Doji. Um, um, but you know, as [00:30:00] chefs have been experimenting, I mean, it turns out, I mean, you know, this, this, I, I can't recommend this book highly enough, Koji alchemy.
Um, um, but, um, you know, they've really exploded the world of Koji and they're growing koji on, you know, on popcorn, on pork chops, on chickens. Um, you can grow Koji on, on, on almost anything. Um, now, I mean, growing Koji is a little bit technical, like this would be an example of a, you know, a ferment that it's a little bit more technically demanding.
But the only demanding part really is that you have to figure out how to maintain a heat of, um, between 80 and 90 degrees for about 48 hours. So I basically have a defunct refrigerator that somebody was throwing away, and I have an incandescent light bulb on the bottle. Bottom is my source of heat. And then, you know, I bought like a $50 piece of hardware that I plugged the light bulb into that has a sensor and it turns the light bulb on and off.
So I usually set it for [00:31:00] 85 degrees Fahrenheit, and whenever the temperature's lower than that, it turns the light bulb on until it reaches that temperature and it turns the light bulb off. I mean, it. Very simple technology that, you know, I kind of improvised. Um, you know, I've heard of people using their oven with the illuminating light is sometimes just all the heat you need.
I've seen people like put a little space heater in their guest bedroom and, and heat up their bedroom to and do it in there. I mean, you know, it just like, it doesn't have to be this huge and scary thing. Like people do it in very improvisational ways.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, no, that's, that's ingenious. I, I've got sort of a opposite setup for sausages for curing to, to make it colder in an old, uh, old freezer.
Sandor Katz: And I mean, you know, curing meats or curing, um, uh, uh, cheeses, you know, I mean, they require a lower temperature, like around an earth temperature rather than an elevated temperature. But, you know, sort of same idea. You know, like with a, [00:32:00] with a thermometer and a little bit of like basic technology, it's really not rocket science to, you know, create, um, you know, a different temperature zone, um, you know, in your kitchen.
Tiffany Bader: Are you, are you, uh, using mostly low tech stuff or do you have like, I I look at like Noma, places like that, where there's so high tech and they're managing everything by the exact degree. Uh, it, it's, I mean, it's great if you have that, but
Sandor Katz: I mean, actually Right. You can see that little Instapot right behind me.
Yeah. So that, that I'm trying to, I, I, I have some. Some, um, chestnuts in there. Oh, okay. But I'm trying this, the, the blackening, uh, uh, process. Okay. And so people often imagine that blackened garlic. Mm-hmm. Is a fermentation. It's not really, I would call it an enzymatic transformation, but it involves basically like keeping the garlic sealed because you can't, it'll, you don't want it to [00:33:00] dry out, but sealed garlic, keeping it about 140 degrees Fahrenheit for a month or longer.
And so I'm trying to do exactly the same thing, but with chestnuts. Um, and so I actually, like, I vacuum sealed some chestnut in a vacuum sealed bag, and they've been for like a month now in the Instapot. The problem is I can't, my Instapot doesn't wanna stay at 140, the like highest warm setting. There's like a.
50 and the medium one's about 125. So like if I'm around in the kitchen, I'll press the high one, let it get it, let it get right above 140 and then put it back on the medium one and let it cool off a little bit.
Tiffany Bader: You know what works, what I, what I use for black garlic is, uh, there's a bread proofer, uh, it's like the broad and Taylor.
Yeah. I find that super consistent.
Sandor Katz: Yeah,
Tiffany Bader: for me anyway. Yeah. Yeah. But,
Sandor Katz: well, you know, another issue that I have is I, I live off the grid, so I have like pretty limited electricity, although we upgraded [00:34:00] our system and like, you know, a, a year ago I could never have thought of like leaving on an Instapot for a month.
But, you know, I can
Tiffany Bader: technology,
Sandor Katz: so I mean, you, you know, so I, I. You know, the first years that I was, that I was, um, um, experimenting with fermentation, like I had so much pride about it. I refused to use a thermometer. I was like real, I was really like, you know, the pe the people of Turkey never had thermometers when they were figuring this out.
Why should I use a thermometer now? But, you know, since, since I like. You know, spent the 10 bucks and bought a nice instant thermometer. My yogurt, my yogurt is much more consistently thick because I get the temperature manipulation much more, um, um, accurately. Um, so, you know, I, I use, I certainly use some techno.
I'm not like, I'm not anti-technology, but I mean, I really, I, I, you know, for me it's very, very important [00:35:00] to. I don't know, just keep reminding myself and reminding other people that like none of the, none of this requires, um, uh, um, you know, high technology. We, you know, which isn't to say that you can't use high te so for instance, like vacuum ceiling, like this is, this is the first.
Fermentation project I've ever vacuum sealed. Um, uh, you know, and we did just agree it's not exactly a fermentation process. And I know, like, you know, there are books that are telling people, you know, vacuum seal your vegetables when you ferment them. You know, I mean, personally, I think it's more appropriate to do that in a jar because.
First of all, how are you gonna know when it's ready if you're not tasting it? And if every time you taste it, you have to like destroy a single use plastic bag and then seal it again. You know, that, that, that, that starts to get kind of, um, kind of wasteful. Now I can see. There is this one clear advantage of [00:36:00] vacuum sealing the vegetables, which is, you'll never have to deal with the stuff we were talking about earlier.
Like you'll never have any kind of calm yeast or funky uh, uh, surface growth. So, you know, I, I acknowledge that there could be benefits. To it. But I think there's also a cost to it. And you know, I just think life is full of trade-offs and, you know, and we place different values on different things and you know, for me it's just not a big deal if I get a little commies to, to remove it.
For some people that's a very big deal and, um, you know, for them maybe vacuum sealing is a better way to approach this.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, yeah. Well, are there, are there any projects you're working on now that are. Totally outside the wheelhouse that are kinda pushing things.
Sandor Katz: I am here. I am like looking around or just is
Tiffany Bader: is it just constant? It's just constant jars of things? I mean the,
Sandor Katz: I'm trying to think if there's any like just completely new and experimental. Well, I mean, I made a [00:37:00] miso that I haven't dug out yet, like last year at this time, where I made chestnut. Um, Koji and added it to cook Chestnut.
So I made a hundred percent chestnut, miso, just chestnut and salt. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to, uh, I'm looking forward to trying that. Um, you know, I, well, one thing that I, I actually don't have going right now, but I was just thinking about it this morning and I was like, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta soak some, um, uh, lentils and rice, but like, dos, like, you know, okay.
If Koji represents like the. You know, technically demanding, uh, uh, style of fermenting grains, um, uh, like spontaneous pancakes represent the opposite, just like low tech. And, um, like I, I. You know, very frequently have them going. Um, um, so it's either, either Dosa, which are lentils [00:38:00] and rice, and you, I generally soak them separately just in water, uh, for overnight or 24 hours.
And then I put them in the blender, um, with a little bit of their soaking water and blend it into a, a smooth batter. And then I let that ferment and rise for about 24 hours. And, um, you know, then I'll make doses out of them and you can store it in the refrigerator. So like, I'll make doses like over a two week period.
I love doses for breakfast. I love to like, make the crepe, flip it over, crack an egg on top of it, put a like lifted, um, lid. On the crepe pan and let the egg, uh, cook while the second side of the, of the crepe is cooking. And that's a beautiful breakfast for me. Um, you know, and then I'll put some sort of, you know, pesto or chutney or um, uh, you know, saucy thing, uh, uh, on it as well.
Um, uh, but I also do this with [00:39:00] buckwheat. I also do this with mung beans. Um, so it's a pretty easy pattern where like you soak the grain and or the bean, um, um, then you put it in a blender and make a, make a batter, and then you, you know, make some kind of, um, uh, pancakes out of them with, with the, with. The mung beans, I usually make like scallion or other kinds of vegetable pancakes where I'll saute this, the, the, the scallion or the other vegetables first, and then I'll put the batter on top of that and incorporate them into the pancake.
Um, but I mean, it's just such, such an easy thing for me to keep around. Like, you know, it takes a little, takes a few minutes to make it in the first place, but then like for a week I can have like an easy meal that I can prepare at any time.
Tiffany Bader: It, it just gets better. Is it ferments longer or is it pretty stable?
Yeah,
Sandor Katz: well, I mean, you know, I don't leave it out for two weeks. I mean, you know, I'll leave it out for maybe a couple of days. Um, um, and then I, then I move it to [00:40:00] the refrigerator.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Um. Yeah. Any other big projects coming up that we should know about?
Sandor Katz: Well, you know, I mean, my focus really has been fermentation education.
So yeah, I'm going, I'm gonna Montana in a couple of weeks to the Bacteria Bazaar in Hamilton, Montana. Um, and I'll be teaching some fermentation workshops there. I have a, um, a, a, a vegetable harvesting extravaganza weekend here in Tennessee. Where, uh, we're gonna go to my friend's farm and fill up a pickup truck with vegetables, uh, on day one.
And then day two we're just gonna like, just chop hundreds of pounds of vegetables and make a bunch of kimchi, a bunch of kraut. Um, um, we'll, we'll start making qua, which is, uh. Japanese style of fermented daon. Um, uh, so, you know, I mean, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm also doing, you [00:41:00] know, kind of ongoing, um, uh, uh, teaching education about fermentation.
I mean, there's a real. There's a real hunger for information about fermentation. You know, as you, you touched on at the beginning, like, people don't know what to be, people don't know what to be afraid of, and so I don't know what I mean, I really think of my role as being, you know, trying to. You know, demystify this process, which on the one hand is so common that it's part of everybody's life.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm. But
Sandor Katz: on the other hand is so mysterious that many people like, just don't understand what's happening or, you know, what it is that, that, that, that, that makes it, uh, so safe. So, um, you know, mostly I'm just trying to like, help people, help make it more approachable for people.
Tiffany Bader: Is that why you spend so much time, uh.
I, I find that you more than like anyone, it seems, spend a lot of time traveling around doing workshops, meeting with [00:42:00] people, face-to-face interactions with people. Is that because you, you see it as, as a necessary step to go from like reading a book to like making people feel comfortable to trust their senses to see that or?
Because most, most people don't do that. They write the book and they put it out and they're like, Hey, everybody have fun. You're like, you're out all the time doing stuff with people.
Sandor Katz: Well, I mean. You know, I wouldn't say that was by like a, some grand design. I mean, no. You know, when, when, when Wild Fermentation first came out, which was in the summer of 2003, I just, 'cause I, I, you know, I had a background of like planning special events and, um, you know, I just had the skills to, or organize myself, uh, like a, an extensive book tour.
And also like, I, I, you know, was. Living in a comm unit. At the time, I had a very low overhead lifestyle, and so, I mean, I organized basically five solid [00:43:00] months of a cross country book tour and, um. I mean, I'll say my book tour never quite ended. And uh, you know, by the time I got back from my, from that, that book tour that I'd organized, I was getting invitations to come to conferences and events and universities and, you know, that's just.
Never, it's never really stopped. You know, I, I just, I, I keep getting, you know, interesting invitations to, to teach in places that, um, that I'm interested in going to. I lo I love traveling and, and seeing different places. So, um, so. I've just rolled with it. But I mean, it's really because there is so much interest in this.
I mean, I just, two weeks ago I was teaching in Mexico City, um, and I had, you know, just a great group of people, but what really struck me is like the intensity of their interest. Like it was people who, like you said, like there's only so much you get from reading a book and you know, they wanted a more like hands-on, [00:44:00] uh, uh, experience and, um.
You know, I don't, I, I mean, I like being home too. I don't like traveling all the time, but I enjoy traveling enough that, um, you know, for me it's been mostly just like great opportunities to, you know, share, share what I have to share in so many different, um, you know, locations.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, travel enough so you can still tend your garden.
Sandor Katz: Um, yes, yes. That, no, that's, that, that, that, that's the key for me. I mean, I do have a garden, you know, la last night we harvested these like daikons that were like, you know, two feet tall. Um, um, so, you know, the, the, the, the, the fall gathering is, is definitely happening.
Tiffany Bader: Is there anything else that you wanted to chat about?
Sandor Katz: One thing I'll say, like in a lot, a lot, in a lot of the US right now, it's Apple season and pear season and, you know, the, the, the, the fresh juice of either of those just ferments so beautifully, so spontaneously, um, um, [00:45:00] you know, I've. I've, I've got my apple press here. A neighbor of mine, a neighbor of mine, came over with like, you know, hundreds of pounds of pears, uh, uh, a week ago and, and, and a crew.
And we spent the day, uh, uh, pressing the pears. Um, and then I did a second pressing of the pumice that was left and ended up with all this juice that's already getting vinegar. So. I mean, now I'm gonna have pair of vinegar for years now.
Tiffany Bader: Wow. Wow. So are you making cider from the first press or is it all for Well, my
Sandor Katz: friend is my, my, my, my.
No, my friend took all of that, you know, we enjoyed some fresh, and then she took all of that to, to ferment into. Perry, um, which is like, you know, a hard cider of pears. Yeah. Um, um, but then I just asked her to leave the pumice and I tried pressing it. I got like five gallons pressed out of it, but it was already vinegar.
Um, oh yeah. You know, I, I mean, actually the, the better way [00:46:00] to the, like, the ideal way to press apples or pears would be to grind them.
Tiffany Bader: Mm-hmm.
Sandor Katz: Give them about 24 hours. The oxidation that happens will really enable you to press much more out. But of course, often people are on a schedule. And they're just like, okay, I have the P, you know, I have the pairs, I have the people, I have the day.
Let's get it done. And they don't wanna like do one half of the process one day and then come back and do the other half the next day. This illustrates like the sort of classic thing with fermentation. Like things take time and, um, you know, for, for people living in our like, you know, fast-paced, immediate gratification time, you know, sometimes it's inconceivable that like, you know, your food would take.
You know, eight hours, two days, four weeks, um, 18 months. Um, but, you know, fermentation is all [00:47:00] about elapsed time. And it can happen at different scales like that, but you know, it, it, it does take time. And, um, you know, generally the processes that try to rush it result in, um, products of diminished quality.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. My, my husband and I made, uh, apple cider. Years ago, and we were inexperienced, but it was fun. And, uh, a couple years later when we, we let it go for quite a while and a couple years later when we tried it, we just expected like apple cider that you get from the store and had one small bottle and like you could barely.
Like we were absolutely hammered at that one bottle it, the, the mountain of alcohol. And that was just Okay. Wow. It, it was incredible. But, uh, yeah, we, we figured we'd go the wild east option and just see, see where it went. And it was, um. It was an experience very, very good. But it was, uh, yeah.
Sandor Katz: Well, you know, I like to point out to people like I, [00:48:00] I mean, of course the packet of yeast is totally an option.
Mm-hmm. Whether you're making bread or you're making wine, or you're making beer, or you're making cider, but. You know, there was no packet of yeast until the 20th century. You know, like that, that, that's a huge, like yeast is everywhere. Yeast is on every apple, it's on every grape, it's on every pair. Mm-hmm.
It's on every, um, um, stock of wheat or rye. But, um. Y you know, yeast is a separate thing, only came into existence the very end of the 19th century and really only became widely available in the, in the 20th century. So, you know, I mean, no shame for using yeast with anything, but, you know, we're, we're. You know, I, I have an obsession with just like understanding like how are the foods that we like to eat and the things we like to drink made from the raw products of nature and agriculture and, [00:49:00] um, you know, the things that require yeast.
Until the 20th century, people had to like, get them from the food in some way, like cultivate their development in, in the food. And, you know, yeast really just was not a separate thing until very recently. And all of the starter cultures are a very, you know, new idea. And previously people were, would rely on wild fermentation, meaning the organisms that are on the food itself.
Um, you know, or sometimes back sloping when you take a little bit of the old batch and introduce it into the new batch. So, for instance, how a sourdough starter is perpetuated how yogurt is perpetuated. Um, you know, or, uh, or, or, or scobies uh, symbiotic communities of bacteria and yeast like, you know, the mother of kombucha, the rubbery pancake that sits on top of the sweet tea.
Um. But you know, the, the pure culture starters are a brand new thing. [00:50:00] And of course, because some people imagine you need that for everything. I mean, there's people out there on the internet who are selling little packets of white powder to make sauerkraut. Like you don't need a little packet of white power powder to make sauerkraut.
'cause everything you need is not only on cabbages, but on. All plants growing out of soil on planet earth, there are lactic acid bacteria. So what you need is always there. It's just like understanding, you know, how do you create the conditions for it to flourish and fully develop?
Tiffany Bader: Yeah. Yeah, well, I think you've done a massive amount to help everyone figure that out and, and not rely on those little packages from Amazon with the white powder in it so they can make their sourdough.
So thank you very, very much for that. And personally, thank you very much for helping me go on my journey of fermentation. It's, uh. Putting along nicely. Not, not done yet, but, um, yeah. And, and thank you for [00:51:00] sitting down today. I really appreciate you taking time. Okay. Well, and chatting with us.
Sandor Katz: It's my pleasure.
So happy to be with you and, um, glad you have a copy of my new book. And, um, uh, let me just plug my website while ation.com. So like, my, the workshops I do are all on there. Information about my books or on there. Um, you know, I have a, I have a slew of other books here. This is. Wild fermentation. This is the first one.
This is the most famous one, the Art of Fermentation. This is the newest one. Then I also have this one. Uh, the revolution will not be microwaved inside America's underground food movements. This is about grassroots movements to reclaim food in different ways. And then this one is called fermentation as metaphor, and this is more like, you know, reflections on the meaning of fermentation.
Tiffany Bader: Amazing. Well, I'm gonna put links to where's the Best Place. Do, do you want links to your website? To, uh, so they can buy the books from there, or, I mean, put [00:52:00] the link to my
Sandor Katz: website and they can find out about the books. I realize people buy books in all kinds of places. Um, you know, I don't want to judge one of the biggest places people get them from.
I try to stay away from, um.
Tiffany Bader: Yeah, no, that's, that's why I ask. Most people are not big fans of that, that large company. So I wanna, I wanna try to direct people to you, so I'll make sure all those links are there so people can find out more about you and, uh, really look forward to the, to the new, new stuff coming out from you.
Okay. Thank you very much. Well, great. Thank you, Tiffany.