Matt Tebbe - Why Is It So Hard To Change?

Show Notes

Matt Tebbe - Why Is It So Hard To Change? by Browncroft Community Church

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Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God, Why? podcast. My name is Peter Englert and I'm one of the co-hosts of this show. And John-

John Iamaio: Wow, how did I get here? What happened?

Peter Englert: I know.

John Iamaio: I don't know.

Peter Englert: He's-

John Iamaio: This is unbelievable.

Peter Englert: ... my boss, also a fantastic co-host.

John Iamaio: Wow. Look at that, also.

Peter Englert: Boomshakalaka.

John Iamaio: Wow, there we go. I'm here. Thank you, everybody, for having me. That's it. Okay, now back to the show. Here we go.

Peter Englert: And then we have the remarkable producer, Nathan. I feel like with today's guest, if you listen to the Gravity podcast, we started the way they did. So, we'll let him do that. We have Matt Tebbe with us. I had to throw that in there. We have Matt Tebbe with us. He recently wrote a book with Ben Sternke, Having the Mind of Christ: Eight Axioms of a Robust Faith. And really, the question that they landed on as we prepared for this episode is why is it so hard to change? Before we jump into Matt, John, what do you think?

John Iamaio: What do I think? Wow. I mean, this is a very timely question. I feel like a lot of people are considering this. If it isn't on the forefront of their mind, maybe they wouldn't explain it necessarily this way, but I feel like a lot of people wonder why they are stuck where they're at. So, you don't have to be a person of faith to really feel that way. I feel like a lot of us feel that way. We're stuck, it's really difficult for us to navigate life. And that's why I think this conversation's going to be a really good one for us just to pause, reflect, and think about that a little bit more.

Peter Englert: I love it. I love it. Well, Matt, welcome. And since our last time together, I think it was in the middle of the pandemic, in the deconstruction-

Matt Tebbe: Yes.

Peter Englert: ... and all that stuff. Give us a little update. How are you doing? What's changed, what's new?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, and thanks for having me. Good. It's good to see you guys again. Well, I've been on a little mini sabbatical from church, for a couple months this summer, and that's been nice. I co-pastor with Ben and another guy named Spencer at our church, and they've sort of taken the reins and led things so I could have June and July off. And I've gone on a couple retreats, I've traveled. I just got back from the gym. I've given myself an extra 45 minutes at the gym to sit in the sauna. Guys, I have developed this habit of praying in the sauna? It's amazing. I love it. Anyway, so that's part of-

John Iamaio: Lord, help me get out of here, please.

Matt Tebbe: [inaudible].

John Iamaio: This is painful. Please, Lord, let me get out.

Matt Tebbe: I have not yet sweated blood, but I have sweated pretty profusely.

John Iamaio: Yeah, yeah.

Matt Tebbe: Doing that. This book just came out a couple days ago, Ben and I have been working on. Yeah. I mean, not much else is new. My kid, I got a teenager now. Geez, I got a teenager and a 10-year-old and they're amazing. And they start school in a week, and I think that I am more happy that they're going back to school than they are. So that's the update from the Tebbe house.

Peter Englert: Love it. Well, to just get us started, I want to start personal. I think that's one of the great things about having John here as a co-host is, we care and love about your book, but I think more important, why? I mean, Gravity exists so that the love of God is reflected in leadership, and you shared just your spiritual journey of how you've landed. How has your own change in your life shaped the way you communicate change? Not just the leaders, but to the people you pastor and even to our listeners?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah. Man. Yeah, Peter that's a great question. Well, going back to what John said, I think it's very autobiographical for me. I think more being frustrated why other people wouldn't change, I think it's come out of my own wrestling of my own obstinence or failure in changing, even deciding to change, making a plan to change, having a vision for change, and then still being an idiot and not changing. And I think rather than just doing the same thing over and over again, going insane? I think that, I had to ask, which is very appropriate for the show, why? Why? What's in the way? What's going on? Why can't I do this?

Matt Tebbe: And I remember one of the key pieces that just came to mind as I was sharing that, one of the key pieces was, I was listening to Robert Downey, Jr., you know Ironman? I was listening to him talk about sobriety. Because he, for a long time, was an addict, kept getting hauled in front of judges, in prison. And he had, was last chance before going to prison for decades, because he kept getting busted. And he reflected back on how he changed, how he got sober. And he said, "It wasn't hard getting sober. That's not hard." He said, "What's hard is wanting to be sober."

Matt Tebbe: And I thought, "Oh, man, there's something in there for the church. And so then, Gravity's a project of reckoning with... I mean, humans are creatures that will ultimately, primarily, eventually do what we want. And so, even if we think we want to change, but we don't, there's something going on inside. There's some kind of desire or want that we're fulfilling in not changing. Unless we face that and reckon with that, we'll find it unfortunately necessary to keep failing. You know what I mean?

Matt Tebbe: We tell ourselves we want this, but really, we want something more and that's running the show. So, for me, it wasn't just Robert Downey, Jr,, God bless him, but it was a number of, call it Christian tradition we drew upon, and a lot of other readings and writings that helped me and Ben just come to that place of, we have to reckon with desire in order to understand why we don't change. And until we do that, we're just going to be on this hamster wheel.

John Iamaio: That's really good. I mean, in my life, I feel like one of the places, maybe the final frontier of change for me has been in some of the dynamics I feel that I carry into relationships, the way that I interact with people. I'm finding myself stuck in patterns of relating in certain ways and really needing people outside of me to help guide me through a healthier way of change, and really needing a desperation, almost, inside of me for there to be another way. That's my story in terms of change. And in some ways, I'm still navigating through that, you know?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah.

John Iamaio: How about for you? Where was that pain point for you that you felt like, "Man, I really want change in this area?"

Matt Tebbe: Yeah. Yeah. Well this gets into a couple of the axioms in the book. One of the axioms is God is always present and at work. And I think, I'll just give you a little scenario. So I work up here in my office, I'm working, I work from home, and Sharon has some part-time jobs, but she takes on some of the... That's my wife, sorry. Sharon is my wife. She takes on some of the primary responsibilities of cooking. So I'd come down from my office, my commute from decompressing from my work to the table is 23 seconds. And so, there's not much decompression time, not much getting into family mode time.

Matt Tebbe: And there was this recurring happening that I would scan the table and see something that I wanted, missing. So we're having chili and she didn't cut onions, or everybody has a drink but me, or everybody has a fork, but I have to get my fork and plate out, and all this thing. And I had this recurring irritation, agitation. And usually, it was just a low-key, low-grade agitation that would, as long as nothing else happened, it would just bubble under the surface. But once in a while it would come out in some kind of passive aggressive way or a pouty way or sometimes, just raising my voice a bit.

Matt Tebbe: I don't need another sermon about how I shouldn't let my wife have it. I think I got that covered. But in that moment, it feels like the truest thing in the world to me. My body's like, "Yes, we're going to make this a big deal." You know? And so, for me then, it was not trying to judge that or fix that, but it was becoming, like this podcast, it was becoming curious, why does this matter to me so much? Why do I have so much invested? What's at stake in there not being onions on the table?

Matt Tebbe: And then other questions, what story does that ignite in me or light up in me? And after just some processing time, this is actually we do Gravity and processing time with friends and Ben, it was like, I have this story that lives in my body, John, that I don't matter. I don't matter. What I want doesn't matter, my needs don't matter. And I go looking for confirmation of that story, unconsciously, right? I'm not active, it's not on my to-do list, but unconsciously, that kind of thing lives in my body. Right? That's part of the brokenness of the world, I think.

Matt Tebbe: And so, this why it's so significant when Jesus calls people to a family and gives them authority and power. There's a deep sense of you matter. Not only you matter, but the church is this instrument through which God's going to declare his wisdom to the cosmos, right? So not only do we matter, we have infinite significance and worth. And so, it would make sense then, that part of the sin and brokenness of the world would manifest itself in me getting slightly irate that there aren't onions on the table, right? That brokenness lives in me.

Matt Tebbe: I think then resolving that was simply like, well, this is a meeting place with God. God's present at work right here in my anger. Not when I stop being angry, but in the midst of the anger. It's like altar call. It's a call to trust that Jesus is Lord, to receive that he sees me, that I matter, that I'm giving way more power to these onions, making them an idol than they're worth, and that nobody at this table is trying to communicate you don't matter. So, I mean, that's a-

John Iamaio: What's your share in there? Ah-

Matt Tebbe: I want to get-

John Iamaio: So good.

Matt Tebbe: ... really granular with this stuff, you know?

John Iamaio: Yeah.

Matt Tebbe: Because I think we can talk about it abstractly, but your question, really, I think helps unlock where does this stuff get purchase in our life?

John Iamaio: Right. Oh man, that's so good. As you're explaining that, you're highlighting something I think, that in the Christian tradition, often is separated from our emotions and our spirit is the body. It's very easy to have a disembodied faith. And what you're talking about is something that's actually an embodied faith where you believe that perhaps even the clues that your body is giving you is an opportunity to pay attention. So when do you know, for instance, that your body is giving you those clues? You hinted at that, but for you, what does that feel like in those moments, where you're like, "I need to pay attention right now"?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah, yeah. So this is part of, one of the practices we have in our book is we just learn to pay attention. Be more present, be more aware, be less in our heads and the spinning, churning, to-do lists or daydreams, et cetera. Just keep coming back to here, come back to now. And so, there's a few things that, if it's hard, we call these kairos moments. Kairos just means time, and it just means here's an opportunity for you to enter more fully into the kingdom. And so, one of the things is, pay attention to things that won't be in the new creation, you know?

Matt Tebbe: So things that aren't fruits of the spirit. Irritation, right? Selfishness. Just pay attention to these things that pop up. And instead of whatever we do moralistically to work on ourselves, to try harder to be better, just simply be present to them. "Gosh, I'm really agitated right now." Just learn how to be with it, learn how to name it. I mean, that's one practice. And then I have to actually, in scenarios with people I love, I have to actually tell on myself, because if I don't, it just has dominion in me.

Matt Tebbe: So, with the onion example, "Hey, I just want you to know, here's the story I'm telling myself about there not being onions. And I know that's not your intent. And I just want you to know that I'm trying to soothe and be present to that, and not let it control me. But if you read any irritation, that's where that's coming from." And then give space for my wife to have her own kairos of feeling threatened that she didn't do the right job, or she forgot again, whatever. So strong emotions is one. That's a big one.

Matt Tebbe: Paying attention to your body. So when we prayed, when you prayed to begin our time, Peter, I've started... Folding hands is the Western thing to do. In scripture, they raised their hands, they held their hands up, palms up, extended. Priests in some traditions still do that when they pray. It's called Orans position. But I've started to, I don't know if this is scandalous or not, I've started to put one hand on my heart and the other hand on my belly, because when I do that, I feel my body. And I'm like, "Oh, what's going on here?" What's actually happening in my body?

Matt Tebbe: And if our body is the dwelling space for the Spirit, then we should expect our body to give us information about what the Spirit's doing, right? And so, that gets back to your comment about us having this over-cognitive, over-intellectualized, living in our heads. And so, if I live in my head, I mean, I could show you the books I got around here I'm just reading voraciously. But if I put my hand on my heart and my hand on my belly when I pray, I'm reminded that, breathe. And I'm reminded, no, it's my body, not my head, it's my body where the Spirit dwells. And so, I want to reconnect to that. So that's another practice or place that we can have these awarenesses, right?

Peter Englert: So, at some point, I want us to walk through the axioms. I think what I love what you're doing is, this is super practical. So, I'm going to take a huge risk here, because you have the onion example. I'm just going to throw an example, I want you to play jujitsu with me, maybe a little spiritual direction.

Peter Englert: Probably my most unsanctified moments in my life is when my two daughters and my wife and I are about to leave the house. Because inevitably, somebody needs their water cup filled. Now, we live in Rochester, New York, water is pretty prevalent everywhere. But for some reason, when I get into the car after feeling we're five minutes later, sometimes, we're just going to the store, but there's this angst of that. And I'll even go a step deeper. My parents are wonderful people, so please hear this as is.

John Iamaio: And they listen to this podcast regularly.

Peter Englert: Maybe. But anyway...

John Iamaio: You have to do that caveat because they listen?

Peter Englert: Well, you just [inaudible]. And I don't know which one, but we were going to drive my brother to college in Missouri. And I got in the car because I had thought we were leaving at 10:00 a.m., and I sat in the car for maybe 20, 30 minutes and we didn't leave until I think it was 3:00. And there was a lot of stuff going on and you're trying to get a student ready for college. So as I'm older, but I'm just giving you that scenario because I'm just in the infancy of being aware of these things. And I think people have these things. How would you push back in a healthy way on me, in that conversation?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah, I wouldn't push. I would just say a couple things. One, Peter, it's grace that you can recognize that the person you are in that situation, impatient or angry, I don't know how you would name it, frustrated, blaming, resentful, I mean, however it shows up for you, that that person will be different in the new creation. Just think of all the times we are cotton-headded [inaudible] and we don't even know it. We don't even know that we're being jerks. So it's grace that you can see that.

Matt Tebbe: Then I think it's worth talking about, what do we typically do with that? Right? We typically try to stuff it, try to keep it inside until it explodes. Right? And then we either feel bad on the inside or feel even worse that it comes out later. Part of what this book is hoping to do is give us a new imagination of, no, this anger coming to the surface, this impatience coming to the surface, this is the in-breaking of the kingdom of God. There's something in your life that's coming out of you.

Matt Tebbe: Your daughters being late isn't making you angry. And that's how we typically think about this, right? No, no, no. I got this anger in me and my daughters being late my anger's like, "All right, settle up your horses. Let's do this. Come on, let's do it." You know what I'm saying? And so, if we can just name, oh, this is a grace, that this thing in me is now on the surface and I'm aware of it and God is getting his hands on it. Yeah. I don't know if this is too cute for your podcast, but what we do with it is we just have to name it and let it be, let it sit there, label it.

Matt Tebbe: I'm really impatient right now because my daughters don't have their water and this is happening again. And I've tried to give them alarms, I've tried to fill up their waters before we go. I've done all these strategies to not get in this place and I'm right back here, right? The second thing is we ask the question, why does this bother me so much? Why? And there's 16 ways to ask that question, Peter. One of them is, what's at stake for me in this? What do I lose if we're late? What threat does their lack of regard for getting ready to leave, what threat is that to me? Right?

Matt Tebbe: Because you're coming by this honestly. There's something living in you, buddy, right? Just like there's living in me. You're not just being wantonly wicked, you know what I mean? There's something living in you that this coheres with. It's coherent. And so, just being curious, which is what you guys do on this podcast all the time, learning to be compassionately curious with ourselves, in moments where our badness is online. We can begin then to cooperate in that compassion, with the kindness of the Lord that leads us to repentance. We can begin to explore. Wow, why does this bother me so... So I just asked that question, Peter, what is it about getting in a car and people not being ready? Why does that bother you so much?

John Iamaio: Wow. I'm glad you asked it, Matt, because if you didn't, I was going to, so that's good.

Peter Englert: We have to model the way here. So, honestly, I haven't really thought about it. And so my first... John always pushes me to go deep, but the surface thing is, usually we're going somewhere that I just want to get done with. And one of the things that I struggle with is, I want to know when something's finished. And so, I think that there's a part of that where-

Matt Tebbe: Interesting.

Peter Englert: ... hey, we need to get... And even probably what I would explore, if I had a coach, a spiritual director or a counselor, is this incessant need to get the stuff done. And so, if we're late for other people, I can already imagine myself, if we said we were going to be somewhere and we're five minutes late, I can already see myself almost sweating and walking in there and being like, "I'm so sorry that we're late." Because I'm thinking this person thinks that I am the biggest mismanager of time. So there's that. But I think even that question, I'm trying to answer it, but it's complicated, because there's different scenarios, but it's trying to land where you landed with the onions of, "Okay, I matter." And right now... Yeah.

Matt Tebbe: Yeah.

Peter Englert: So yeah, keep-

Matt Tebbe: Well, I was going to say, so in our training and in the Christian tradition, there's human-created needs. All humans are created to need at least three things. One of them is belonging, another one is safety and security, and another one is significance. You know? And as I'm listening to you talk and we could have a six-week podcast on how that shows up all through the Bible narrative and how the kingdom of God is about all that, and adoption and authority and power. And, "I'm always with you, I'll never forsake you," all those kinds of things, right?

Matt Tebbe: As I listen to you talk, I hear two things, at least two things, Peter. One is, what will other people think of me? Right? What will people think of me because of these goobers that made me late. And two, this is what I do. I manage my time well, and other people are compromising what I'm good at. Right? So there's your significance in what you do well and there's your belonging and what other people think.

Matt Tebbe: And these aren't just wants. If a baby doesn't have safety or nurture an intimacy in belonging, or a sense of that they learn how to have power, they grow up, and we know this from tragic stories, they aren't recognizably human. They grow up and they're just, they're not recognizably human. So you've got some needs, created needs, that you've hooked on to certain things and those things are getting threatened and you feel scared, anxious.

John Iamaio: Well.

Matt Tebbe: That makes sense? You guys tracking?

John Iamaio: I'm tracking with you. I don't know what Pete's doing over here, but I'm tracking. I think you're, yeah, that's a great analysis of... How does that make you feel when he's describing that?

Peter Englert: Oh, I mean, you were a fly on the wall in my therapy sessions. And the reason I'm glad that you're doing that and even naming it is, we could go through all eight axioms and just have you list them off. But I think what's important about this, number one, John, you and me would all say, we have the onions, we have the water before we leave the house. We'll get to John's thing.

John Iamaio: Yeah, I'll share whatever I got.

Peter Englert: Yeah, yeah.

John Iamaio: It's nothing really. It's-

Matt Tebbe: His is the onion before he leaves the house. Its weird how that works.

John Iamaio: Anyway.

Peter Englert: But what I love about this is, whether someone's de-churched or unchurched or you're a skeptic, no one wants to be the angry person. And then you put in Christianity and now it's like, I'm not only the angry person, but Jesus is angry at me for doing this. But what you've slipped and even what I'm hearing is, there's this healthy desire for belonging and significance that thank God that this is coming to the surface, because it's as if God is giving you this gift and this choice, you don't always have to live this way.

Matt Tebbe: Yes. Yes, Peter. And can I push it one more step forward? As a beloved child of God, as a kingdom citizen, you have all the significance you can possibly handle. It's all a gift. And so, then, part of the repentance is, this cannot threaten my significance and who I am. And I get to order time as an expression of God's power in my life, rather than to prove it, rather than to like... In Protestant circles, we talk about earning it. And I think that sometimes is right, but I don't think you're trying to earn God's favor. I just think you get a sense of accomplishment and significance from what you're good at, which I think is appropriate, but it can become idolatrous.

Matt Tebbe: How do we know? When we flip our lid at our kids? You know what I mean? And then we're like, oh, look at this, God has given into my lap a place where I have taken a gift and made it into something that has to do work for me. And now I get a chance just to receive it as gift. So I unhook, I call it, I unhook who I am from being on time. So now I can be on time or not and I'm okay. You know what I mean?

Matt Tebbe: Which is, that is salvation, Peter. That's being saved, that's getting saved. Right? And I think it sounds so mundane, so ordinary, so non-spiritual, that we dismiss these portals into the kingdom of God all the time. We don't have the eyes to see how significant these events are. And I think, I don't know, I've experienced, this is how I change. I meet Jesus at 5:15 at this table with these onions not there, or I don't change.

Peter Englert: One more thing, then we'll get to John. Because-

John Iamaio: He's not going to let me off the hook. That's fine, that's good. That's good.

Peter Englert: That's what he would do for me.

John Iamaio: That is true. I would do that.

Peter Englert: So we say things at Browncroft, one of our, you'll hear it repeated, "The gospel is something to be believed, not good advice," or something like that. And what I hear you even... Because that sounds so intangible, but what you just did with me was, "Hey, the good news is you don't have to prove yourself, because Jesus loves you." And that seems so intangible. But when you say, "Hey, because you're significant, because what God has done for you, you don't have to be upset because you're late or that doesn't have to tied..." And I might not be wording it right.

Peter Englert: We think the gospel is like, because you said it. You're like, "No, that's salvation." And we think it's the Robert Downey Jr., save us from going to prison and wanting to change. And what you're saying is no, there's these really small crevices in our life that all of a sudden something boils up that God actually wants to save you from, an unhealthy, and maybe again this isn't the way to say it, an unhealthy need to belong, an unhealthy need for safety, an unhealthy need for significance. I mean all of a sudden, that's the most compelling vision for Christianity of all time, but especially for us in 2022.

Matt Tebbe: Yes. Yes. And again, a part of what we train people to do is proclaim good news. So we're not heaping up heavy burdens on people. Right? Peter, you shouldn't care this much about being on time, stop it. That's not good news. That's the advice you're talking about, right? It's impossible. If you could've done that already, you would've, right? But rather the good news is, "Peter, I've created you to express my authority in this world the way you order and arrange time. And I want to teach you to trust me even when time, when you're not in charge of how time is spent. When you aren't in control of your schedule and you are afraid, I want to teach you how to trust me."

Matt Tebbe: Now, that, that's good news, right? Because then when you're coming into this place of anxiety or fear or anger, it's a church bell. I'm sorry, that's an old, it's a call to prayer. This is Jesus in his severe mercy, trying to free me up from having to be on time, to be okay so that I can more fully and graciously express his authority in what he's given me to do. Your turn.

John Iamaio: Oh, wow.

Peter Englert: Or wherever you want to go.

John Iamaio: No, that's really good. I mean, I think I'm just following with you, Matt, in what you're saying. And I think in my life, I'll just use a today example, because I love using the most recent examples as I possibly can in these type of situations. I went to Buffalo Bill's training camp this morning with my son, who's 17, and we've been doing this for probably, I think this was our eighth year doing this.

Matt Tebbe: Nice.

John Iamaio: And when we started going, my son was little. So, he would always bring football cards with him and he'd have the guys sign them and it was our thing, right? It was kind of our little bonding thing. So we went with my nephew and my brother-in-law and us two, we went. My son really didn't want to get any autographs today. He's like, "I outgrew that. I don't want to be that guy." And part of me was totally resonated with that, okay, I'm cool with that. But then another part of me, I was feeling this anger inside of me, "Well, why wouldn't you? You have these cards. They're here, you could sign them. Why?"

John Iamaio: And I found myself pushing back a little bit internally. Hopefully not externally. But I felt that presence there. And I realized in many ways, now Matt, I'm bringing you into the journey here. Pete knows this journey for me in my life. But over the last year and a half, I lost my mom and then I lost my dad just simply three months ago or so. And so, this whole proess for me, I feel, over the last two years, has been grief, grief and loss-

Peter Englert: Yes, yes.

John Iamaio: ... grief and loss. And I feel I've done my best to lean into grief and loss, but every turn, there seems to be another way that I'm confronted with grief and loss. And I think even in that moment, I was grieving losing this part of our relationship. Even as a dad, this little tradition. It was a little tradition that all of a sudden used to be very meaningful and now is gone. And I think the anger was a result of grief and sadness, and I had to just acknowledge it internally, even in the midst of that. Does that jive with what you're-

Matt Tebbe: Yeah, dude.

John Iamaio: Philosophy that you're talking-

Matt Tebbe: Sounds like you've done some work on it. Yeah, sounds like you've done some work on it. I think-

John Iamaio: I'm old, so I've done work. I mean, that's years upon... I'm older than Peter, so I've been down this road, you know? So anyway, that's...

Matt Tebbe: Yeah. I'm glad you reported that it was you experience at anger, but upon reflection, you realized it may be more of grief. Anger is typically a cover, especially for guys. It's much easier to experience anger than vulnerability, sadness, right? Weakness. It's way, much easier for us to get angry, because it's been conditioned that way. And so, yeah, I think this is actually a precious moment, that you had these seminal losses in your life that you didn't choose, that happened to you and you had to deal with the grief that caused.

Matt Tebbe: And then in this beautiful place, where you're not expecting today to have your grief come online, your son indicates, "I no longer want to do that." And so, once again, you have to lose something you didn't choose to lose. Right? And I think it's beautiful to just... I mean, we could just talk about this therapeutically, but I want to talk about it in the kingdom of God. Because I think what you're doing, John, is you're... Sad things are sad. And when we give ourselves over to being sad, I know it's treated as a disease in our culture, but when we allow ourselves to be sad, we're actually confessing the truth about things.

Matt Tebbe: We're actually aligning our, we're weeping at the tomb with Jesus. Sad things are sad. And so, just giving ourselves over... One of the axioms is God is so real, he most fully meets us and our messy reality. When we tell the truth about ourselves and about what's happening, God is present there, really present. So I just want to affirm, John, working through that and being like, "Okay, this is why this bothered me. This is why I was not okay with that." And it was a surprising not okay, right? So this is part of "They're five minutes late and I'm surprisingly agitated," or "My son is going to get car. I didn't know this mattered to me this much. I guess it does. And I'm going to I'm a borderline jerk right now." You know what I mean?

Matt Tebbe: Whatever. I think those surprising things are indications that there's more going on below the surface for me. And I think you working through that and saying, "Oh, man, this is something else I've lost. Gosh, how many of these?" And that may lead to, "I just maybe need to cry or I need to let God have it. God, how many other things am I going to lose?" There's a lot of faithful ways of navigating loss and sadness that scripture gives us. And so, yeah, that's a great example, I think, man. And I think the good news is sad things are sad. Feel free to grieve.

Peter Englert: I'm listening to this, you know what? I'm inspired in a new way. Because I think we've heard a lot of this, but there's a way that you're communicating that it's all coming together in a awesome way. But I want to throw out something that Christians say all the time, "Take up your cross and follow me. Die to yourself." And maybe I'm the only one to actually admit that, but that just sounds terrible. Because even the way people say it, it's probably the message that I'm telling myself.

Peter Englert: And again, I want to go back to what, because you said this isn't therapeutic, this is theological, too. But the way people say it, it's almost manipulative it can feel, where it's like, there's something wrong with you, so die to yourself and carry your cross, or, you're going to be asked to do something and then you're trying to manage this tension of, do I need to put a boundary up or am I trying to carry your cross?

Matt Tebbe: Yes.

Peter Englert: But I think what you're saying is, hey, there is good news to the gospel. Sad things are sad, but dying to yourself, it's not this horrible thing as we make it. It's actually bringing you new life in even the deepest crevices of your life.

Matt Tebbe: Yes. Yeah. Peter. I think when you face that anxiousness in the car and you receive good news, "Hey, my daughters are not threatening anything, because I have all this authority." I mean, however you proclaim the gospel to yourself, you are actually dying to yourself. You know what I mean? Because yourself wants to control and arrange the schedule of everybody around you, so that you feel powerful and you look good. And I said that pretty crassly, right? And I don't mean that as an accusation, I'm just trying to speak in shorthand here. That's the self.

Matt Tebbe: But if you kiss that self with a love of the gospel and allow that self to be placated or appeased with Jesus, just hold it, hug it, then you're dying to it. You're not indulging it, right? So we could use the metaphor like that. There's so many more things. I'm always two seconds away from a rant here, guys, and I apologize. But there's so many other things to talk about with that whole thing. You have to die to yourself. Oftentimes, that's used to gaslight people, to encourage them to mistrust what they're experiencing or mistrust their conscience, or to bypass what's actually going on, right?

Matt Tebbe: Right? So, John, you shared about your parents dying and we received it and we honored the grief there. But if I respond, and I don't know if you guys ever had somebody do this, but if I would've responded to, "Yeah, but think about all the good times you had with them." Right? Or, "God brought you to it, he'll bring you through it," then I haven't actually touched your grief at all, I've bypassed it. And I think that oftentimes, the pick up your cross and die to yourself is used because we don't want to grieve, we don't want to be sad. You know what mean?

Peter Englert: Let me-

Matt Tebbe: There's more to say about that.

Peter Englert: No, no.

Matt Tebbe: Go ahead.

Peter Englert: I want you to come back to that. But just as I was listening, because I think, I love the direction. This is why we invited John for this... because there's a thought, even without other people, I could get in the car and say, "I'm going to die to myself by trying not to care about us being late." And you're laughing because you know exactly where that leads.

Matt Tebbe: I've done that. Yeah, I've done that.

Peter Englert: It leads to more resentment. And what you're saying is, and John and I were having a conversation before, and John kept on saying to me, he's like, "We're still at the surface. We're still at the surface."

Matt Tebbe: Yes.

Peter Englert: And what you're saying for this Christian life is, there's a way more robust way. It's not just be aware of your feelings or be aware of your reactions, it's deep, deep down there's some things that you need to allow to feel, experience, that when you do die to yourself, it's actually new life on the other side.

Matt Tebbe: Yes. And I just want to say that many of us have to go to a counselor's office to get this kind of soul work, but I learned this from Jesus. Jesus did this with people. He excavated their hearts. He always asked them why. He got ecstatic when James and John were like, "We want you to do whatever we ask." Which is such an impetuous thing to say to the Messiah, right? And Jesus is like, "What do you want?" I think he was just excited somebody was going to stop BSing for a bit and actually share what they want.

Matt Tebbe: There was no game, there was no hustle, there was no honor contest. It was just like crassly, I'm going to ask for power, which is what they did, right? I think Jesus was overjoyed. Why? Because all the hustle, all the pretense, all the lying, all of it was gone. And he could just deal with what's really going on with these two guys, you know? I just want to say I learned this way of operating with Jesus, from Jesus. I think most of us would be embarrassed to say... I don't know, you made the joke earlier, Pete, that now you work for John. Can you imagine going to John and saying, "John, I want you to do for me whatever I ask."

John Iamaio: Oh, he does already. So no.

Matt Tebbe: But then John going, "Okay, what do you want?" And you being like, "I want almost as much power as you." Most of us would feel embarrassed to have that conversation, and Jesus welcomes it, because they're actually putting their desire out there. And I just want to, once again, just frame this as I think this is how Jesus discipled people.

John Iamaio: Matt, as you're talking, I mean, I got five questions in my head, but I'm just going to pick one of them. What do you think is the biggest obstacle in our way, in our society right now, from experiencing change, true, meaningful change? What's the thing that is getting in the way?

Matt Tebbe: Oh, man. Can I Bible juke you and say sin? Can I do that?

John Iamaio: Sure, you can say that. You're the guest on the podcast. You can say whatever you want to say. That's your problem.

Matt Tebbe: Well... Yeah, there's a lot of things that are flowing through my head. I mean, we could talk macro, right? So we could talk the way that the gods of our world order and shape our lives without even us knowing it, right? We talked a little bit about our need to control things, self-willfulness, and I think that's a huge part of this. But I want to come back to something I said earlier. I actually think Robert Downey, Jr.'s right. I think he's right. I think the biggest thing that gets in the way of change is that deep down, we don't want to. We don't want to.

Matt Tebbe: And another way to say that is we want to, but there's something else underneath that we want more. And usually that thing we want more underneath is an opposition to change. And so, until we reckon with that thing underneath, that makes change impossible, we'll always tell ourselves, "I want to change," but not be aware of the want that's deeper, stronger, more pervasive that prevents it. So I think that's the simplest way I can say why we don't change, is because we really don't. Deep down, we want something else more. What do you guys think, though? I mean, that's me, but what do you guys think?

John Iamaio: Yeah. That's a really good answer. I'm reflecting on that. I'm just stewing in what you just shared there. I mean, I think honestly, and Peter and I have talked about this before, I think in our culture, American society, I think busyness is one of the big reasons for people not changing, a hectic, got to get to the next thing lifestyle that says, "I can't even slow down to pay attention to what..." What you're describing of slowing down and going, "Why am I mad about the onions?" Or, "Why am I having this anger about football cards?" The slowing down enough to even make those observations, we don't even give ourselves the time to do that.

Matt Tebbe: Yeah.

John Iamaio: As I reflect on maybe another thing in our society that makes it difficult, it's that one.

Matt Tebbe: I think that's a good word, John. I think we don't make space for it. Change is actually hard. And unless we order our lives in a way to make change, it's not going to happen. Mm-hmm.

John Iamaio: Yeah.

Peter Englert: I think the only thing I'd add, because sin is the church pastor answer that we're supposed to say, and then the hurriedness and busyness. And this goes to control. To quote Emmanuel Acho, "We're unwilling to get uncomfortable." And there's a part of what you're saying that there's like, it's uncomfortable, but it actually leads to comfort. Or, maybe it leads more to safety. Maybe that's a better word. But we have so many people that live in echo chambers, or we have so many people that live in their routines. And when Jesus offers even just to die to yourself, you go into an uncomfortable place to be, actually, I want to be careful as I say, a better place.

Peter Englert: And when I say better place, it doesn't mean richer. So for me, I'm moving from impatience to patience. To move there is really, really uncomfortable on the present. But later on, if I'm willing to go there, and I think we're seeing that in, too, for relationships. Hey, there's some family members, and we'll have some fun, because if people follow you on... they just radically disagree with me politically, but can I change and become more like Jesus and be with them in a way that they can change in the right ways, not necessarily the ways that I want them to change. I don't know, does that make sense?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah. This is huge. Peter, I think this is huge. Saying that God is always present and at work, isn't to say that God has always present and at work in what I want him to be doing. Part of the discipline... So I just think about Peter's life and Peter gets confronted by Paul, in Ephesus, because he's not eating with the Gentiles. Right? And it's revealed that Peter's got... I mean, Paul's apoplectic, right? He's losing his mind, "You've abandoned the gospel," he says to Peter. Right?

Matt Tebbe: Well, all of that was in Peter's life before. You don't think Jesus ever saw an ethnocentricity that would compromise the gospel in Peter? Of course he did. But you know what? I think Jesus was tending to the grace in Peter's life at the moment, rather than making a list of all the things wrong with Peter. He didn't even resolve eating food and going into Gentiles' houses. That happened in Acts.

Matt Tebbe: And so, I think that part of what love requires of us is disciplining ourselves to meet people where they're at and tend to the grace that they can perceive, rather than try to shove a kairos into their mouth, you know? "Hey, God loves you, and I have a wonderful plan for your life. Let me tell you about your politics. How jacked up they are," that kind of thing. So for me, that's part of... I have to tend to my own anxiety, man. I mean, there's some people that it's really hard for me to be around and not name things that bother me. You know?

John Iamaio: Totally.

Matt Tebbe: I don't know if you guys can relate to... It' really hard.

John Iamaio: Oh. Are you kidding me? Holy cow. Oh, man. Ah...

Peter Englert: And Matt and John, I don't know if you've experienced this, people come to me and say, "I had a kairos moment with God, because you said this." And honestly, it's the dumbest thing. I think for one person I said, "Hey, when you're driving in your car, just turn off the radio or turn off the podcast." And they came back to me and they're like, "Man, that just made..." And I'm like, "I heard that from a spiritual director that I'm passing on to you." Yeah. And it wasn't intended to force, it was just an offhanded comment. And I think even what you're saying is, when we become more engaged in what God's doing in our life, these kairos moments happen around us and we're able to sit back and go, "Well, that was pretty dumb, but God used that." Or, that was pretty, I don't know, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Matt Tebbe: Yeah, I think it does. Yeah. But I think we just become more sensitive and aware. I mean, this changed the way I've done evangelism with people. Right? I don't have to trick people into conversation about Jesus, or try to convince people they're wrong and I'm right. Basically, I can just look for places of common grace, where they're experiencing God's goodness and affirm why it's good, or look for places of despair and pain and say, "This is why this hurts, and just bring the kingdom of God around it. Not in a coercive way, but in a, "This is how I make sense of what's going on with you." You know? And I find all kinds of ways of non-coercively just sharing about Jesus with people and they're like, "Oh, that's interesting. That's cool. Oh, I never thought of it like that." It's not this sparring match. I don't know. I hate that stuff.

Peter Englert: Wow. This 55 minutes went by really fast. I don't know if we've ever had an episode like this. So Matt, thanks for going on the journey with us. We'll see what happens.

Matt Tebbe: Yeah. This is great, guys.

John Iamaio: Man, [inaudible]

Matt Tebbe: This is great. I didn't know we were going to get into Buffalo Bill's training camp and-

John Iamaio: Sippy cups and...

Matt Tebbe: ... everything else. But this has been awesome. I really enjoyed being with you guys.

Peter Englert: Yeah. Well, we do have one final question and we've kind of answered it, but I think it'd be good to clear. It's what does Jesus have to say, why is it so hard to change? And so John and I will answer and like you've been doing this whole episode is you'll just clean up our mess. Does that sound good?

John Iamaio: Yeah. Am I supposed to go first. You're looking at me, Pete.

Peter Englert: Oh, I'm looking for direction.

John Iamaio: Okay. Oh, that's fine-

Peter Englert: So, you go first.

John Iamaio: ... I'll go first, I'll go first. As I think about what Jesus would say about this, I reflect a little bit about this earlier. And as Matt is talking, I'm just convinced at it more, even, in that I think Jesus, I'm just so thankful. I'm leaving this conversation thankful for the patience of Jesus. I think sometimes within the church, we can portray Jesus as "Jesus needs you to change right now, all of you, every single piece, now. Now, quick, change."

John Iamaio: And you think about the disciples that were around Jesus for three years, nonstop, and they were still messed up. Now, they did end up changing over time, but for all of us, change is a journey, I'm leaving this conversation so grateful that Jesus is patient in the midst of our change. That Jesus isn't forceful for us to change, but he invites us into a deeper level of change. And as we lean into him, we can then experience a more full life as he intended us to live it. So, that's what I'm taking away from this conversation. How about you, Peter?

Peter Englert: I appreciate that, John. As I was preparing for this podcast, I've spent the year in the Gospel of John, and John 14:6 is the famous, "Jesus is the way, truth, and life," and there's a lot of theological underpinnings and conversations that people have. But I think people forget that in John 15, a few verses later, he says, "I am the vine, you are the branches." And if you discredit the vine and the branches about abiding with Jesus, from him being the way, the truth and the life, you're going to miss out on what he called you to experience.

Peter Englert: And our hope is that even by all three of us delving into the deepness of our brokenness, of our pain, our anger and our frustration, Jesus is the way truth and the life. And he's called us to abide in such a deep way that there's good news for even the most minuscule frustration in our life, that maybe in those simple places, God wants to give us life where we never thought we could, in a way that we never thought we would. And I'll even close my thought with this is that, even what Matt said about the irritation and frustration that won't be in the kingdom of heaven, that we're experiencing already, not yet, not as some theological or even therapeutical, but as a very practical reality right now.

Matt Tebbe: Yeah. Amen, you guys. That's great. I don't know if anything needs to be added to that. That's really good. Yeah. I guess, I just say, if this is hard, if a listener's listening, it's hard for you to fathom that God is patient with you, that Jesus is patient with you, that your deepest brokenness and badness and darkness, that God isn't primarily offended or disgusted, but he is tenderhearted. I know a lot of people experience God like that. And I just want to say, it's one of the reasons we wrote this book, but you are much more like the child welcomed up onto Jesus's lap than you are the person with power hurting other people that Jesus calls to repent, you know?

Matt Tebbe: And what would that invitation to sit on Jesus' lap, what would that do to you? What would you be able to do if you could just sit there and waste Jesus' time? Just sit there. And all the important people around Jesus are telling him he's wasting time. That's the image I got as both of you spoke, that there's this prodigality to God's patience, this lavishness to his love, that many of us often don't experience. And I think that was the picture that I thought of when both of you were speaking.

Peter Englert: Matt, I got to do this because this is what we did. But you folks can go to IV Press, Krista Clayton has given our listeners for the two weeks after this airs. If you put the code Why God, you get a discount. So we hope you buy a book.

John Iamaio: What's the name of the book?

Peter Englert: The book is Having the Mind of the Christ, just buy a book.

John Iamaio: Go to IV Press and buy a book.

Peter Englert: Buy whichever one you want. This is why we have him.

John Iamaio: Should probably tell them the name of the book,

Peter Englert: Having the Mind of Christ: Eight Axioms of a Robust Faith. If you follow us on social media, we'll connect you with the rest of it. I feel like the most appropriate way to end this episode, Matt is just to have you just pray for our listeners as they engage this and we'll close after you say amen.

Matt Tebbe: Sure. Sure. Jesus, we thank you that your kindness and patience and goodness is really beyond fathom. And we long in our bodies, not just in our brains or on our podcast, we long in our bodies and our relationships to know that, to know it intimately the way that you know us. So Lord, would you give us grace today to be more fully present? I just pray for surprise and wonder and compassion to well up in listeners' lives. And may the next time that we experience join peace, may we know that you're near, and the next time we experience fear or irritation, may we know you're near, too, and sit on your lap in both. We ask this, Jesus, in your name and for your love's sake, Amen.