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We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!
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Junae Benne: You are now rocking
with the hostess, with Theosis.
This is dear girl, the natural Hair gamer.
Former and current present will always
be Jana Benet, and welcome to another
episode of Gaming for the Culture where
we talk to people in the gaming industry.
It is not necessarily about
the gaming industry, like you
have so many outlets currently.
I know they're diminishing, but you
have so many outlets to read about
the surface of the gaming industry.
We talk to the people who make the
gaming industry what it is and who
make it possible, and who have made
these contributions that people
may or may not have heard about.
And with that, I am happy to let
our guests introduce themself.
Akil Fletcher: Wow.
Hi everyone.
My name is Akil Fletcher.
Um, I'm a postdoctoral fellow and
lecturer in the anthropology department
here at Princeton University.
I teach courses on, well, one of
them is called Gaming Blackness,
specifically engaging with race
and how it shows up within the
narrative and use of video games.
I also teach digital anthropology and
overall just research how individuals
use tech to form communities identities
and, you know, build out this wonderful
world that we're living in, but online.
Junae Benne: That is amazing.
Uh, I know a lot of places are
coming to the terms of having
like a video game course, right?
Yeah.
And then you have this
course that's introducing.
Blackness as well.
And I've never heard of that.
I've never heard of that.
I know there are other schools, you
know, trying to get like hip hop courses,
like authentic hip hop courses as well.
Akil Fletcher: Mm-hmm.
Junae Benne: And so it's very
nice to see that education is
growing as we need it to grow.
It should probably grow a
little bit faster, but it is,
it's, it's getting somewhere.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah, it is.
And you know, unfortunately there
are still certain stigmas of
stereotypes around gaming that
are still a little prevalent.
I would say the Academy has
gotten a million times better
with it than, you know.
20 years ago, or even when like Dr.
K Gray was starting to research and other
things like that, uh, she definitely
had a, a much harder uphill battle
climbing to, to sort of legitimize, uh,
work and research on games than I did.
Thankfully.
She had very much paved a way
and I could be like, Hey, I
wanna, I wanna do this thing.
And I also went to a, a, a broad and
weird enough department at UCI who
already had folks who studied games, and
they were like, yeah, just do whatever
you want as long as, you know, it is
feasible within, you know, anthropological
and ethnographic methodology.
So it was, it was doable.
Junae Benne: So with you being
in a weird enough department and
asking their permission, is that
also how you got to take your
students to like across the world?
Akil Fletcher: Yeah, so, I mean,
I'm going to actually, so the first
trip is coming up in the fall.
I thankfully got a, a couple of
grants, um, within Princeton to.
Take students to Tokyo for the second
time that I'm teaching gaming blackness.
And that's going to function as an
experiential sort of engagement for
the students to, you know, engage
with blackness globally and to
understand, you know, what the Japanese
gaming market is essentially doing.
Or rather, not so much even the
market, but the gaming culture, right?
I want them to interact with
the pe with people who are
playing the games in the arcades.
Move around.
I'll just drop my pen and
I'll get that in a second.
But, um, yeah, no, Princeton is
thankfully, has been incredibly
supportive over my first year here.
Um, finding funding was a task,
but it was much easier than
it has been in other places.
And that being said, you know,
we got brand new laptops.
Um, Princeton is amazing, but they have
little to no gaming infrastructure.
So first time I taught the class
we were playing on, uh, PC boot
up, uh, through Mac Systems and
nobody wants to do that now.
We have dedicated gaming
laptops for the class.
We have money for the funding, and
then we'll be heading out to Tokyo in
October and I'm super excited for that.
So, yeah.
Junae Benne: That's amazing.
How does one engage with
blackness in gaming in a place
like Tokyo during this, um.
Sha, Assassin's Creed, shadows, uh, d
debate and Discourse that's going on.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah, that, that's
definitely going to be a thing that's
going to pop up in, in, you know, this
semester is class as something, as I'm
writing up, uh, something currently, uh,
with a fantastic professor who studies,
uh, black experiences in Japan by the
name of Kimberly Hassell, who's over
at the University of Arizona currently.
Um, and it is very interesting.
Um, one, it's, it's largely just engaging
with the historical presence of Japanese
culture itself and with the gaming culture
directly, and then finding where blackness
sort of showed up, uh, shows itself.
So.
Obviously Yake being a black samurai,
there's no debate about that.
You know, all the experts
say it, blah, blah, blah.
Just in case anybody wants to go, like he
wasn't actually a Samurai sort of thing.
Um, Yake is obviously a, a great example
of early experiences of blackness within
Japan, and Yake has become a very beloved
sort of historical figure and individual
to write stories about, hence the
inclusion into Assassin's Creed because,
you know, super do, like the, the average
Samurai was, it was like, was like 5, 5,
5, 6, and Yake was, was a, a smooth, like
six foot something so huge in comparison.
Um, myself being six three can
attest to that, but it, you know,
there is opportunities to, you know.
Engage with Yake to engage with, uh,
black art within, uh, Japanese culture
to engage with the hip hop scene.
Right.
Something that has been huge because as
American culture has been transported
to Japan, it has also meant that while
there have been racist things like
minstrel minstrelsy and other things
like that, and weird images of black
individuals that, you know, sort of
proliferated within, you know, anime
imagery and other things like that.
Um, there's also been a huge focus on
like street fashion and hip hop that
are just direct expressions of black
culture that has been molded within
this American cool that has, you
know, been shipped out, uh, to Japan.
And it's a lot of that that will
be talking about engaging with.
And I'm also just gonna, you know,
buy them a bunch of, you know, we'll
give them a bunch of yen and have them
run around in, in arcades and try to
struggle to play video games that,
you know, does not, that only reads
in kaji and they can't do anything.
I had to do it.
It was fun.
Junae Benne: Well, what's
the point of being a teacher?
Unless you're gonna be like the main
person teaching about everything
on a trip where they probably
have a million in one question.
So you need to have 1,000,002 answers.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
The only people they learn,
Junae Benne: sorry, go ahead.
No, you're fine.
I think they, they definitely will
learn and have learned because
like, that's such a big experience.
It's a core memory, right?
Like it's a, it's a core memory and
it's not everybody's canon event.
Hopefully it'll start being more
and more people's Canon event.
But as a core memory, I feel
like you remember everything.
Like my first time traveling
around Europe was like wild.
And so you really don't realize how
much information you take in Yeah.
Until you start talking about the
situation or until somebody says something
to you and you're like, oh, did you know?
And my favorite part about you taking.
These students to another country,
especially a country where people,
uh, can get this, excuse the word
I'm about to use, but japanophile
mentality or this obsession with
Japan that they can do no wrong.
That they are like the
greatest thing ever.
You know, people still rocking like
the imperial, like sun, like, you know,
and not really knowing the history
behind that and just being like, um,
because we're okay with weeds, right?
We have no problem.
Like I think I'm a weed, but I'm not
going to idolize another country.
And so within doing so and bringing
these kids, uh, to, they're probably
like some type of adults, but
they're definitely younger than me.
So bringing these kids to a place where
they could see like the good, the bad.
Right?
Yeah.
And have different experiences, I think is
going to reflect in their circles, right?
Because so many people are like
Japan apologists and have never like,
lived there or experienced it, right?
Like, um, some of the, the, uh, not so
much like talked about or, or, or widely
talked about issues of like, you know,
Japanese people like using the N word
or they are, you know, trying to do it.
It's, it may not be exactly like
blackface, but they're doing things
that are very black coded and then, you
know, kind of just like sweeping things
under the rug of like, oh, you know,
like everybody can like enjoy this.
And so I, I just like the idea of being
able to expose them to everything and so
that they can give a more accurate, uh,
representation of like, what's going on.
And then we can still have those
like hard cultural conversations.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I mean, everything that you
said is, is, it's all a big point.
Of course, Japanese imperialism
was incredibly brutal and even in
comparison to others at its time.
Um, and that's something that kind
of gets glossed over as they have
very much become the country that is
associated with, you know, cute cartoons
and, you know, anime and all these
other things that, that goes on there.
And there is definitely a
fetishization of Japan that is.
Sweeping, uh, it, it is, it is just so
particular within like culture right now.
Um, and it's also just fascinating
because it's not necessarily
something that is racially divided.
It seems like the black communities,
white communities, Latinx communities,
Asian communities, all are all taking
in some level of love or appreciation
for Japan that is, is starting to step
into the, to the form of fetishization,
especially since they are attempting
to recreate portions of culture that
they don't fully at times understand.
I, if you wanna learn about a culture
and engage with it healthfully,
I think that's perfectly okay.
As long as it doesn't go into
the side of fetishization or
appropriation, you're perfectly fine.
Um.
However, yeah, there's,
there's definitely, there's
problematic things, right?
Anti-blackness is, is global.
Uh, there definitely exists in Japan
and you know, the excuse that people
often give is that Japan is, you
know, sort of isolationist country
or rather homogenous country with,
you know, no black people in it.
So like, they don't know any better.
And I think that is, um, insulting
to the country and the people.
Um, there's plenty of
black people in Japan.
There's plenty of foreigners in the Japan
since like the 16 hundreds plus, right?
It's not just, uh, Japanese individuals
once the, uh, post World War ii, once the,
the US occupied, uh, post 1945, right?
There were tons of, of black, uh,
soldiers that were positioned, uh,
or stationed rather within Japan.
That led to a bunch of intermingling
within culture and, you know,
the, the stereotypical like, you
know, bunch of mixed race babies
and all these other things, right?
But that being said.
Them using the n word them using the
other things is, is a very interesting
topic because I feel like for black people
specifically within like black and Asian,
uh, solidarity, it's been a very weird
sort of expression because there's been
lots of opportunities and moments where
black and Asian people have had solidarity
post, uh, like Chinese Exclusion Act
and all these other things, right?
Where black individuals stood up,
uh, for Chinese individuals and
vice versa as they were both, you
know, being oppressed at that point.
But there came a, there, there came a
turn where, uh, Asian identity, right?
Became the sort of model minority and
was then weaponized against the idea of
blackness, of like, Hey, if they came
here and they can make it, you can too.
Ignoring the fact that outside of
like Chinese and Japanese immigrants
who were given lots of, of, or
rather were like only the riches
of the rich were able to come in
during the time of the exclusion act.
Uh, it allowed for lots of individuals to
build wealth and strength in a way that
black individuals had not, and ignoring
the fact that there were Vietnamese,
Filipino, other folks who were struggling
just as much as black individuals but
didn't, didn't get acknowledged within
that model minority aspect and sort of
created a fray within the, the Asian
communities as it of in and of itself.
But all that being said, because
there's been solidarity specifically
against whiteness, there are moments
where folks have will argue that
non-black people of color can say
the N word because they aren't white.
And that is a concept of debate.
I don't get into, I
prefer if they don't, but.
Lots of my friends or even other
people will be like, Hey man, I'm
good with non-black identifying
people, you know, saying the word
as long as they're not white.
And that's also trouble
troublesome and of itself.
But it's very interesting to see that
like solidarity between Japanese or any
sort of like Asian body, Asian community
rather, um, within the us whether it be
like post blaxploitation or anything else
like that has sort of given them or given
some people leeway into doing it in the co
in the country itself is very different.
But I can, we can get into
that another time, I think.
But yeah.
Junae Benne: Wow.
Uh, I felt like you covered
stuff, even if it wasn't in depth.
It was definitely from the Rudy to the 2D.
You definitely, no, that
was, that was great.
You know, because I think it is important
to recognize that, you know, Japan isn't
just this Kauai island in the middle
of nowhere that's never had technology.
Like, you know, I saw Aretha Franklin
performing there, and so while people
would try to protect them, like
saying the N word or being like, they
don't know better, they just think
it's cool, it's like, but they have
been experiencing black people just
as you said, for a very long time.
And not just solely celebrities,
but like in the community.
So, yeah, I, I do like how you broke
that down because it's important to
like, go through it thoroughly for
the people who want to learn, right?
Yeah.
And so, like, hopefully, uh, when people
hear this, they're kind of like, oh,
I never thought about it that way.
You know, I just.
No one should be absolved of, uh, their
like, rougher part of history, because I
feel like that's how we don't learn and
we need to like, talk about it, go through
it, feel those feelings, come up with a
better solution and create remembrance
around it so we don't repeat it.
Akil Fletcher: Very true.
And, and the, the event to qualify
my statements and, and obviously put
out there that like, while I have
major interest in Japanese media as it
interacts with, with black communities,
I'm less so versed within, you know,
the histories of, of the country itself.
I will just throw out there
that state making in and of
itself is a violent act, right?
So every country has a sort
of like brutal history.
So Japan isn't unique in that case,
but they are unique in, in the,
in the way in which like people.
As you said, KA it.
It's, it's, it's a whole, it's, it's,
it's, it's a whole different sort of en
en engagement in a lot of those cases.
And it's just one that's, that's very
recent and one that's fascinating
because there's a lot of, of Japanese
and black, uh, interaction going on.
I mean, mag Thee Stallion is, is
doing a bunch of stuff and was just
there, um, with, ooh, I forgot the
name of the band, but the one who,
who sings Tokyo Calling, which is a,
a, a great song, but is, it's there.
It's, it's everywhere.
Right?
It's, it's, it's not just, um, you
know, they don't know any better.
So it's, it, it's definitely there.
Junae Benne: Wow.
How do we transition from that topic?
Because I definitely wanna talk about
it more, but I feel like it would,
we need like a special episode for
just that in particular, especially
because you're so knowledgeable and.
I feel like I have so many questions and
so we gotta give people time to ask their
questions and then circle back to this.
I definitely wanna talk about something
interesting that you said earlier
while we were talking about like
satire of television and how you know
it's always gonna be lost on some
people and how like it's just, that's
just how it is or satire of anything.
And then you said that GTA is a parody
and I was taken aback by that and
I'm just gonna exploit, explain my.
Brief history of like GTA.
So yeah, I never played
it when I was younger.
I definitely always
thought it was violent.
Don't get me wrong, I play things
like Sassy's Creed and I've played
like gears and things like that.
And so like those have like
a form of violence as well.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but GTA kind of just seemed like it
was fun and it was just too much for me.
I'm, I'm, I'm a sensitive kid.
Okay.
And so, um, you know, when I started kind
of like having my feelings around GTA
after a certain point of like, you know,
hey, I feel like this is making fun of
black people because, you know, you found
out like who made it and the person who
made it, uh, is not a black person and
they, you know, they kind of just decided
to create this thing about this black
guy living in this place being, you know,
all of like the negative stereotypes.
And I would, I would stand on my
soapbox anytime somebody would
talk about GTA, because I'm
not afraid to avoid my opinion.
And then somebody was like, yeah,
but like GTA is my like life.
Mm-hmm.
Like, like I've lived this.
And I was like, you know, I've never
thought of it like that before.
And if this is something that you
identify with, like, I think that's
cool too, and that you should play it.
But once again, who made it
and what was his inspiration?
You know?
'cause, 'cause then to go off on just
a very small tangent to, for, to, to
have someone who is uh, non-black make
a game like this with all of like the
black stereotypes everyone thinks about.
Um, it's the same as someone being
like, I understand the plight of
black people because I grew up in a
black neighborhood, but I'm not black.
And it's like, no, that's
not fully the case.
I think, you know, that's a great
builder of like allyship, but that's
not a basis of like understanding.
Like you don't get to speak.
For black people in this case,
you get, you can speak with them.
So, um, that is my background with GTA.
And then you said it's a parody and
I've never thought of it like that.
So like what?
Walk me through that.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah, so GTA
is a fascinating game, right?
And it's one that, that
we work with in class.
It's a sort of breakdown.
'cause obviously it's, it's,
we, we work on San Andreas and
we can talk about the others.
I have a little less experience
with five, but you know, either way.
Um, and you're right, and, uh, everything
you said isn't necessarily wrong, right.
And.
I guess to begin with, right?
Like GTA is originally developed
by rockstar, which is a studio
that's put together by basically
two British guys who had a big love
of like hip hop and rock music and
basically counterculture altogether.
And it started off as a music
industry and eventually got
like a little games division.
And you know, long story short,
they put together a bunch of stuff
and they made, I forgot it was like
called Crash and Burn or whatever.
They basically made like a, a little
top down like car game that you ran
around and started like killing people.
And because of a glitch where the, the,
the car kept case chasing you, they made
that like into the identity of the game.
And that eventually evolved until you
got like to the grant theft thought
of series where, you know, obviously
the idea of the game is to be, you
know, crazy violent, do missions while
getting chased by down by the police.
Fast forward, you get
to San Andreas, right?
And being what is what,
the third or the fourth?
I believe it's the third installment
in the Grant Theft auto series.
It might have been the fourth
actually, because it was my city thing.
Whatever.
Um, it.
It took a very different approach into the
game where it was one where Rockstar did a
crap ton of research on LA to put together
the environment, the, the, the storyline
and what was happening in that case.
Right?
So cj, all these other folks, right.
It's interesting or rather engaged
because the reason why I call it
parody or rather periodic in nature is
because it lambasts or, you know, sort
of creates a superficial like black
identity, like black identity that you
would see like in a, in like a hip hop
video or these other things like that.
And to get that, or rather to be
authentic to that they worked with.
Lots of different black folks to
create to, to create it, right?
Samuel Jackson voice is the main villain.
You have a bunch of different rappers
that that engage with it and a lot
of different, you know, black folks
that were like putting their seal of
approval and they were engaging with.
So it wasn't just like they made the
game about the culture, they worked
with the culture to make it happen and
then to make this like, fun experience
where, you know, it is what it is.
Um, the vi.
But that being said.
There are still obviously problems
with grant theft auto as it per it, it
basically covers all of the same issues
that any, um, sort of like us interpreted
game is, is especially one made by white
folks are going to, are going to create
where it has like hyper violence against
black bodies, specifically black women.
It, it, it dehumanizes and some aspects,
but in other aspects where you pointed
out where like folks were like, that's
my experience when I teach it in class.
It's usually a 50 50 split, right?
Like I had other students who were like,
you know, this is the closest thing that
I've gotten to my reality in a video game.
Even if it's just meant to be
a joke in many of these cases.
Um.
And there are moments in San Andreas
that are authentic, like CJ's need
not to want to, to, to basically
his, his refusal of using drugs.
The, the issue of engaging with,
with the, with the, the, the drug
epidemic that's, that's, that's going
on within his, his own community.
And then the references to the 1992 LA
riots that happened within the end of
the game where they're engaged with,
you know, stopping riots or blah,
blah, blah, whatever happens there.
And for me, this is where the game
shows some of its major failings and
how it doesn't necessarily escape.
That's sort of like
white liberal ideologies.
Uh, simply because their solution to
fixing the, the, the quote unquote
riots or uprisings at the end is like,
we can't destroy our own community.
Blah, blah, blah.
This is wrong no matter what.
Violence is never the answer.
Right?
It gives you that very like, that
that, that like, you know, the
police are corrupt and bad, which
is, uh, these are moments where like.
Rockstar is doing things that no
other company are doing, right?
They have, they have a, a strong, uh,
engagement and interpret, uh, an analysis
of like police corruption, police
violence, brutality, uh, drug use, uh,
life that of, of, you know, what creates
poverty rather than like blaming black
folks, they, they point to all the sort
of the structural issues that create the,
the, the ins, the, the, the life that
you're playing through in this case, which
then turns into like, bazookas jumping
off the trains and blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's where the parody comes in.
Um, yeah.
But even then, at the end of it,
they, they basically go like, you
know, any sort of uprising is bad.
And, and you know, they're not doing that.
You have to quell it yourself and then,
you know, you kill the police officer
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But it, it's parody in the nature of they
create this over the top black life while
adding, while questioning the status
quo, providing something that, like back
in 2003 wasn't necessarily happening.
Um.
While taking interpretation and
research from black culture in and
of itself, the problem comes in
when people play it and then they
go, this is like real black life.
Right?
You know, I'm, I'm a gangster.
We're doing this.
Like, this is like word up to your mom,
whatever the hell folks were saying.
Like, they like, they
took that shit seriously.
Like black life is nothing but
violence and drugs and all these
other things and missed all.
Of the engagements and lessons that
Rockstar did a pretty decent job of
engaging with until they shot the bed
all the way at the end, which tends to
be the case with a lot of these games.
Bios, shock.
Infinite.
I'm looking at you we're not even, we
we're gonna get into that another time.
Junae Benne: Okay.
No, but we have to get into that because
I've never played Bios shock because
it was kind of too like gross for me.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: So like, tell, tell,
tell me about it because you sometimes
you can't like learn about a game
without being removed from it except
for like cases right now where I can
ask you, where you don't have to show
me visuals, which is the whole reason
why I can play it in the first place.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Um, I mean before I get to Bios
shock, I guess, is there anything
else you wanna follow up on?
Grant the thought or I'm
happy to just jump in with
Junae Benne: Yeah, no, I think that really
answers the question and I think that
was a really good answer because that it.
It very much so.
Brings it full circle.
Oh, I was going to ask not to
ask you to speak for all white
people, especially not being one.
Akil Fletcher: I I would,
I would never dream of it.
Not like my voice has ever been taken.
Junae Benne: Uh, so what do, what is it
that you think when they're recreating
these stories, when they're telling
these stories, even when they're, uh,
nonfiction, that they have to create this
moment where they're like, uh, you said
it best where you're like, you know, this
white, like liberal thinking of like,
Hey, let's not destroy our community.
Um, you know, but we've seen that, right?
We, we, we've seen that in the past
couple of years, actually work in
the favor to be like, yeah, like mess
up the target and see what happens.
Like, show these people that, you
know, you, you need a certain type of
support and them just being there like.
Taking your money, um, is not enough.
And so o oftentimes when I watch, uh,
certain movies that could be true.
There's always like that one
good white person, right?
Yeah.
Like where they have the black
person who is going through something
who, who technically looks like the
villain because this white person has
to like come and help them, right?
Yeah.
So they're going through this thing,
they're trying to like figure this out.
They're just like living their
regular old lives and they got
called into a bunch of mess.
And then at the end, they can't do
it without like this white person.
Like, what?
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think they need to be
like that needs to be the solution?
Perfect example, which I had a hard
time watching, is Lovecraft Country.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: Right?
Mm-hmm.
Like there was this spoiler alert.
I will give you guys, like,
I'll try to only say this within
the 10 seconds that feels like
Akil Fletcher: six years old.
Go for it.
So,
Junae Benne: oh, uh, wow.
Wow.
I didn't realize that.
So there's a part where they're
talking about Emmett Till, right?
The Chicagoan who went to Mississippi
and then was like brutally murdered,
drowned, like drug through like
the street, everything like that.
Um, she didn't understand why it
was such like a big deal until
she did it to herself because like
she couldn't die or something.
So then she took it upon herself
to like, like, you know, like
throw herself until leg being tied.
Like, and then she was
like, oh my gosh, I get it.
And it's like, why?
You just can't understand
that we telling you.
And instead of, you need to like
be in that situation, like it needs
to be this personal experience.
So that's kind of two questions in one.
Yeah.
But I feel like it's the same ideology.
Akil Fletcher: No, I think I, I mean,
wonderful questions overall, right?
And I think it's for the same reasons
why like Barrett and S and Final Fantasy
have daughters or Right, like why they're
always giving like a, like adult black
characters like children or something to
protect or like a dog or something, right?
To soften their experience.
Because black humanity is often illegible,
right, to a larger white, uh, audience.
And this doesn't mean that like white
folks can't enjoy black stories or black
media, but you know, just from like
reading the reviews and the reports
of black media, often there's a lot of
folks who's just like, I don't get it.
Why are they complaining?
What is this X, Y, Z, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
So people often have to like bend over
backwards to make black humanity legible.
To the experience, and I think
Lovecraft Country did a terrible
job with it in this way.
I, in some ways it's, it's, it's
literally takes that much before,
like a white woman gets up and says
like, yeah, I totally get it right.
But realistically, it
doesn't do, it doesn't.
It's, it's, it's one of the worst ways
to portray that, especially because it,
it reenacts the violence that was done
upon Emmett, just for, you know, another
person to be like, Hey, I get it now.
Right.
Um, so it, it was, it was a big
shock, low payoff in my opinion.
And I think you're right to, to
question that Lovecraft country
had a bunch of of problems.
And, you know, not only from that, but in
terms of its engagement with, with its,
uh, queer characters, the murder of, of
the queer, indigenous, uh, individual, all
these other things where it's just like,
yeah, sometimes, sometimes even black
people in the writing room, like mess up.
And that those were,
those were good examples.
I do think it had like one
of the best horror episodes
with, with the Lopey, like.
Mention like that, please.
Let's not that that episode
put me, put me to think, but
Junae Benne: let's not
go back there at all.
Exactly.
Akil Fletcher: But overall, right,
it's, what was I gonna say there?
Um, overall there's a need to make
black, to make blackness legible.
Right?
And that's, that's, that's largely it.
And the, the need to make it legible
often, like goes back to like that
engagement of like fetishization
and, and engagement with it.
Where like people will often cross
the line from, from like a healthy
love and respect of hip hop to like
wanting to consume the black body
and, and like in this art form and
this other things and grant theft.
Lado definitely steps into that territory
a little bit where it's like, we want to
make this as, as like a love letter to
hip hop culture and to music that we love.
But there are moments where they
couldn't help themselves, but from
implanting larger white ideology
or liberal ideology into, and when
I say liberal, I don't mean like.
Conservative, liberal.
I mean, I mean, like, I don't even,
that's a hundred percent, I mean,
liberalism in this case, but I mean,
like this, this constant need to maintain
or to adhere to the status quo, right?
To like make everything feel normal and
to only try to change things in the sense
that normalcy can be maintained, right?
It's the same thing around like defunding
the police or like abolishing that,
like we only know a world where the
police exist, so thus the answer could
never be to abolish and to move past
that system or to abolish prisons and
Angela Davis and all this stuff, right?
But rather to just make them better
so that we can keep having our defense
force that makes all of us feel safe.
Meanwhile, every black and brown
person is telling you, like, that's
not like, we don't need, we like,
there are other ways to keep a
community safe rather than policing.
Right?
And we're not, I'm not even gonna dive
into all of that, but yeah, that, that.
I think, I think, yeah, that,
that is a lot and so much stuff
to talk about there and whatever.
You're happy to jump to.
Bios shock.
I'm happy to do that.
Junae Benne: Yeah, let's do that now,
because you are preaching for sure, like
class is in session, like take notes.
Akil Fletcher: It's hilarious.
Junae Benne: Uh, yeah, no, we can
definitely hop over to Biohack because
it, it's so much deeper, right?
Like I'm never asking you to conceptualize
the white mind and I'm never asking
you to like, you know, make a decision
and make a statement for like a
group of people who need to do that.
It's a very like, exhausting trope to go
through where you're like, you don't, I,
and, and I think they also need to have
that happy ending with that without that
black person being helped by like a white
person or without that black person.
Being like, oh, I'm like squishy now.
You know?
Like, I am soft.
I'm, this is a, like, hard thing to write
because they're like, well, why don't
they just have such and such help them?
Or why don't they have to?
Why wouldn't they just fight for a
cause like bigger than themselves
that they're willing to sacrifice for?
And I, and I feel like this goes beyond
as, as a woman who watches, uh, who's just
now getting to like this era of watching
all these really, like romance movies.
Mm-hmm.
I'm kind of sick of love in movies
if it's not specifically a romance
because like, what are we doing here?
Like, what are we doing?
Like why do you, so, like, now that you
love this person, you're just stupid.
You just, you don't
have any sense anymore.
The plan went out the window because
this person looked like they were
in danger and you just foregoed
everything When they would've been fine.
I, it, it, to me it bleeds
over into that as well.
Like
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: Like.
If it's gonna be cheesy,
let's make it cheesy.
If it's gonna be romance,
let's make it romance.
But like you having this action
movie, you guys are kissing
when the bomb's going off.
I'm gonna cut it off.
I'm gonna cut it off.
I don't care what else happens
because like you're not even
doing the characters justice.
Right.
And I know that there are some movies
like that, but like I said, if you're
gonna make it cheesy, make it cheesy.
But yeah.
Let's get into biohack.
Let's just jump right over into Biohack.
Tell me about Biohack
Infinite specifically.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
No, no, no.
So Biohack is a, is an interesting
series where they just, it basically,
somebody tries to make a utopia
and it all goes wrong, right?
That's, that's usually the, the thing.
And the first game, it was an
undersea utopia called Rapture.
And that is like more of a horror game
and definitely more of a bloody extent,
where I had a rough time playing that
one, especially as younger, 'cause I'm
a coward and horror games will like,
like I could watch horror movies.
No, easy, but for some reason,
like playing through horror
games, it sets me up different.
You're not a
Junae Benne: coward, it's
Akil Fletcher: just,
Junae Benne: that's not our th like,
because I, I can't do that either.
Like when I tell you I struggled
with love like every week.
It took me a week to get over the next
episode and then eventually I stopped
watching after the Hipa Leida episode,
which I'm glad I got to watch that one.
Mm-hmm.
'cause that really inspired a lot of
like Afrofuturism and stuff there.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: I don't think you're a cow,
but I think we just built different,
Akil Fletcher: it's perfectly fine.
It's, like I said, watching
isn't an issue playing.
I'm getting better though.
It revolves me swearing and
yelling at my screen as I, as
I, I survive and move around.
But you know, it is, it is what it's,
but yeah, so Infinite is the third game.
Um, and it is a fascinating game
and I plan to teach it this this
quarter in terms of this time.
The utopia isn't under the water, it's
in the sky, and it is specifically a
white religious ethno state, right?
Like they build a white Christian city
in the sky and then make all of the
black and brown people the laborers.
So it is legitimately just
supposed to be the dream utopia
for a white racist, and it.
For, I don't remember the game
came out like 2011 or 2013,
like a game that came out.
Like in those years to make that
critique and not receive the backlash
that like Yake is getting is fascinating
to me, just in and of itself.
Right.
Um, people were upset, there was a
little bit of things, but overall
people were just like, eh, political
game, let's play through it.
Right.
So there de, there definitely is a
difference in sort of like pe in terms
of people's, like a media literacy
and racial tolerance that is changing.
But, um, and it's so fascinating
because you play as an ex Pinkerton
agent and Pi, the Pinkertons were
sort of like surveillance slash uh.
Violent security group that were
often, uh, brought on to like Quell.
Um, what am I, what am I looking for?
Labor uprisings, right?
So if you were striking other things
like that, the Pinkertons could come
in and, and have killed and will do
stuff and all these other things, right?
When it was a little bit more
acceptable to like stomp out the
people who are asking for more
money than it's today, right?
And you take this not so great person
who needs to pay off their debt and his
job is to go find a girl and capture her.
And then you run into this, you
run into this utopia, immediately
you are baptized, you, you know,
they say a bunch of like Christian
words, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Read a couple bible verses,
dunk you under the water.
And then you like, end up in this place
where you are now looking for a girl.
And then the first, like you see.
Absolutely nobody else but white people.
And then they have a couple of like
Sambo esque figures and a couple of
things that, like you can play like
water shoot and other stuff like that.
And you're just, and you, and at
first you might mistake it for
like, just a, a piece of the time.
You're like, okay,
nothing weird's happening.
Um, unless you're, you're mean.
I was like, yeah, that, that, that's us.
Um, until you get to like this, this
convention center, and they're like,
all right, well you won the prize.
You get to, if you hit
them with a ball, you win.
And then when you see it's them,
they've brought out a, a, a, a mixed
race couple, a black woman and a
white man, and you're like, you
have like hit them with the ball.
Um.
Basically they're just like, you
know, they are n word lovers.
You know this, this ain't right, this is
a natural blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You, you know, you hit the, hit
'em with a ball, you win the prize.
And it was basically like a
public stoning in some cases.
And you are given the option to throw
it at the couple, or the announcer
who was trying to get you to thing it.
And the game never, eventually like,
gives you that choice, which I'm
kind of glad they don't because I,
I would hate to see how many people
would actually hit the couple.
Um, and in that, and, but in that case,
it was like, the first time it was just
like a brutal realization of like what
the game is doing and how it's going on
with race and everything else like that.
And it had some interesting takes
and everything else like that.
And eventually you go through an uprising.
It's a, it's a, it's essentially
a slave rebellion, right?
The whole game plays through a slave
rebellion until you get to the end.
And the head slave who was, um, framed
for the death of like the, the, the,
the, the religious leader's, uh, wife.
Actually, they turn around and say
she's just as bad as the religious
leader for fighting for her freedom from
slavery than the guy who was enslaving.
And I was just like, you dropped,
like you, you dropped the
entire, like the entire ball.
I don't know if I can curse.
I'm sorry.
I was about to, but I was like, they
dropped the entire ball on that.
Right?
Junae Benne: Yeah.
That's really wild for you to
go from one extreme to something
that's like benefiting, right?
Yes.
Because slavery, and no matter
what color you are, you shouldn't
have to be subjected to it.
I feel like we can agree with that, right?
Until it's like, oh, they're black.
And it's like, oh, but
they're supposed to.
So that's a very.
Wild that they were like, it's the
same thing, like wanting to be free
is the same thing as like a cult.
Akil Fletcher: They were
just like, violence is wrong.
And here again, the liberal ideology,
like it's pervasive within these games
that are tempting to be shocking and like
deep in their critique and they just,
they always fall back on the status quo.
I'm like, you were, you were almost there.
I was like, so close it, it was
just like, Hey, I like you're so
Junae Benne: close.
Akil Fletcher: If I like, am I, am I
enthused about, you know, playing as the
white savior that is here to help the,
the black, Asian, Latino and indigenous
people escape from this white utopia?
No.
But ending, you know, any form of
like class and race-based slavery
is, is better than not ending it.
And then in the end you
just like kill everybody.
I'm like, this was not
the plan, guys like this.
This went completely awry.
Wow.
Junae Benne: They were doing so
good by like not letting you choose
who to stone because they knew.
What people were doing.
And I, I appreciate video games
as a way to play as someone
else and to learn something.
Yeah.
Um, a lot of the times before, like
other stories were being told, I was
sick of being a white character and
I was sick of like, you know, like
saving everyone through violence.
I think that's also why Cozy games
are a bit more popular right now
because you're not exactly doing this
like hardcore, like agro like gaming.
It's just like cats are
baking soup, you know?
Not that I really like that I didn't, I'm
not a fan of, you know, the cats making
a soup or the cats are running a hotel,
or the cats are like hurting other cats.
Like, I don't know, her like
hurting as in like sheep hurting,
not like hurting by the way.
Yeah.
You know.
Whoa, whoa.
Slow down.
Janae.
We almost don't have time to tell the
people about the sponsor today, which
is the pink on de seat gaming chair
review that is posted up on my channel.
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And honestly, it was one of my
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All right, Janae, back to you.
Akil Fletcher: Just wanted to make that
Junae Benne: distinction.
Akil Fletcher: That's okay.
So it's fun to hurt you.
Junae Benne: Uh, you know, so
I think that's why cozy games
have become a bit more popular.
And I think that is okay.
And I also think the people
are asking for something new.
Uh, but then when they get it, they're
unsure about how they feel about it
being like a black person because,
and some of their minds, they're
like, well, why couldn't a white
person go through this struggle?
And it's like, because you don't, because
you don't go through the struggle.
So like you'd get it wrong anyway.
Right?
Like if they were trying to like, um,
talk through something that was like a
very specific black issue or very specific
like person of color, like Asian, middle
East, Asian, like, uh, Latinx issue,
and they just tried to put like a white
person in place, they would get it wrong.
Just like they would get it wrong if they
never did any consulting to any of those
groups that they were about to portray.
Like you would just get it wrong.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
And I mean, sorry.
Please finish your thought there.
Junae Benne: No, go ahead.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah, no, I think,
I do think there's a, there, there
are opportunities to write like
strong black characters for anybody.
I, I think, I don't think like writing
is limited to, to things, but the
reality is is that they have lots of
folks have just messed up already.
Right.
And at this point, you know.
Just hire the folks, do your
research, get folks in there.
Um, and a good example, typically for
me or just like even some, like with
like the children's show, I dunno if
you've ever seen like Craig of The Creek
and all of its references, I love Craig
of the Creek,
right?
Yeah.
That show is, is, is developed or,
or written by a white guy, right?
But it has tons of a other black writers
on the, on the, the writing team and lots
of engagement and an earnest attempt to
like, let me just have this black kid have
like lots of great adventures and be real
for like what Black American culture will
look like, what the family structure is.
And then, you know,
what's happening there.
Does it still have it's little nods here
to, to sort of like satisfy white viewers?
Of course.
But for the most part, Craig
of the creek is, is, is.
A wonderful, like, divergence from the
need, the like, like the trauma porn.
That, that is often consistent
of like any black storytelling.
And often, you know, with a lot of
writers, there's, there's a need in
order to tell, like, to try to be
like, as serious and, and, you know,
thoughtful to the black experience.
They often just diving too much
into the trauma and then it,
it, it just soaks it entirely.
But then you have something like
Abbott Elementary or Creek of the Creek
and all these other things, right.
That display that.
Yeah.
You know, sometime like the
school in Philly is super duper
broke, but like, there's other
things to do about it, right?
Like, there's always, there's always
another way to, to, to work around it.
So it's, it's fascinating stuff.
Nonetheless.
Junae Benne: Agreed.
I have find myself thoroughly enjoying
the bear because at first I wasn't
gonna watch it 'cause I'm like, ugh.
I am like, it's a cooking show.
It's about a cooking, like
it's a, it's a cooking show,
but it's like a drama comedy.
Um,
I haven't seen it.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it's based in Chicago and
Jmax accent come out Chicago.
Oops.
Usually it's not there, but
it just, it just popped out.
So
Akil Fletcher: it's okay.
You said, you said, you said the Dave,
you summon, you summoned the Chicago,
Junae Benne: it's a place in the, you
know, capital of Illinois, where this
guy, uh, he owns a family restaurant now.
And I watched it because I saw
the main, the black girl, uh, ao,
I think her name is, and I saw a
picture of her doing, uh, this.
Slow motion video that the guy always
does at like, these really fancy events.
I don't know the name.
I don't know, like the production
and like, I barely know her name.
Yeah.
But, uh, her dress was like, really
pretty and she did a really pretty
pose and I was like, that's right.
She is in that show.
And I was like, let me watch it.
Akil Fletcher: Wow.
And
Junae Benne: so I watched it and
that's all it really takes some time.
And so I, I, you know, so many people
are, are like really fumbling in the bag
by like just not having any black girls.
And like, I think me and her are
also like the same skin color and
like, I used to have a gap and
then it just decided to close.
And so like, you know, she has one.
So I'm like, ah.
It just
Akil Fletcher: decided to close
Junae Benne: it really, it really did.
Like, I really, I really had one
like six months ago and then over
the course it was just like, bye.
And I was like, why would you do that?
Like, don't leave me please.
Um, so I watched the bear.
And first of all, it's very,
like, the editing is really
good because you get frustrated.
But then I think you learn
what it's like to work in a
restaurant, which I've never done.
Like I've never worked in, uh,
any type of food industry, and
I just know how people are.
I've worked in like Best Buy and
stuff like that, and I know how people
are about that, so I can't imagine
them being like hungry or needing
their coffee and just whatever.
So it was very like, jarring and it
was so overwhelming and I was like,
I'm not gonna watch the show if it
stresses me out, you know, because
this is how so many people feel.
And then, uh, she came in and
then also the guy from Odd Future,
which I never remember his name.
I think it's El Boy.
So El Boy from like, uh, if you ever watch
Loder Squad on Cartoon on Adult Swim.
Yeah.
Like at night, like one of the,
he was like one of like the bigger
guys, like the bigger beefier guys.
Um, okay.
He's in it as well.
And then there's this other guy named
Abraham and this other guy named Marcus.
So there's like a total of like four black
people and then like, you know, branching,
branching out, they have a Latino woman
and then like branching out to like
their families and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Um, so I'm watching it and I
am just kind of watching it.
I'm not analyzing it, right.
Like, I'm not like, oh, how are they
gonna write this black character?
I am kind of analyzing the, like,
you know, the guy, the Italians that
they said are from Chicago, I am kind
of like, oh, is this really Chicago?
Like, what did they, what did they study
to like really be, you know, because I
feel like The Punisher is his brother.
Like I'm pretty sure that's the Punisher.
Like I'm pretty sure that's him.
Um, I ne I never looked it up anyways,
so I'm watching it and I'm just kind of
like going back and forth, like, you know,
seeing what people see from like fine
dining to like this restaurant in Chicago.
And I'm watching how they write, or
I'm realizing how they write this
black girl or this black lady and this
black guy who both work in the kitchen.
And I don't have any qualms with it.
It's not like,
Akil Fletcher: oh, it's
Junae Benne: cringe.
It's not like, oh, you
know, my brother got shot.
Or like I'm in danger and that's why like
I work here, you know, this was like my
afterschool program and now I am a chef.
Like,
Akil Fletcher: oh no,
not the vaught industry.
Sorry.
Junae Benne: So, you know,
I really enjoyed it because.
I think sometimes, especially just living
the black experience, some of the best
media is not reminding me that I'm black.
Right?
Like, you don't have to bring it up.
Like,
Akil Fletcher: yeah,
Junae Benne: I'm here.
I I've always been black,
I'm always gonna be black.
Like, you know, so I, I really enjoyed it.
'cause when I realized like, that's
what was happening, I was like, huh.
And then I just kept watching the
show and, you know, at no point
do I feel like they've done that.
And so obviously if you're gonna watch
it, I'm not gonna like, ruin it for you.
Um, but yeah, they, I felt like
they just had someone, right.
Those characters.
And I have an example because I used to
really, really be on, uh, Donald Glover
and Childish Gambino, and I remember
when he talked about writing for 30 Rock.
How they wanted him to write for
Tracy Morgan, but he wanted to write
for, I can't remember his name,
but they were both from Georgia.
It was the white guy with like, he's, he
was also a fix it Felix of Wreck Ralph.
I just don't know his name.
Ah, okay.
Um, but so he was on the show and he was
like, no, I feel more comfortable writing
for him white guy than I do Tracy Morgan.
And I guess they hired him
to write for a black guy.
But I was like, if we're being Siri, if
we're being real, like if we're being
real, I feel like the Tracy Morgan on 30
Rock doesn't really have anything to do
with being from like a certain background.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
And
Junae Benne: so that, that could
have been something like what,
the few episodes I watched of 30
Rock, I never really got that.
I just felt like he was Tracy Morgan.
Right.
Who Yeah.
Just be saying random stuff
and needs to catch up.
Right.
Like that's how I feel about Tracy Morgan.
He is very funny, very talented.
Um, and so when he said that he wanted to
write for the other guy, I was like, huh.
I was like, yeah, I guess that
makes sense 'cause you both are from
Georgia and then you could do like
those nuances and things like that.
Yeah.
But um, yeah, I just, I never
got that feeling with 30 Rock.
And, uh,
Akil Fletcher: do you feel then
a white person could have written
for Tracy Morgan's just fine.
And in any of these cases, like do
you, do you feel like you needed,
would it have been Elevated, had more
black folks been writing for him?
Junae Benne: I don't know because I think
because Tracy Morgan is so established and
we know his personality and he's already
come out like as he is, I think a good
writer could assimilate Tracy Morgan.
Right?
Because it was about, it was pretty
much about Saturday Night Live
being Saturday Night Live, right.
It was like the behind the scenes
of like Saturday Night Live and so.
To, I, I don't think so.
Um, but I, I guess also
we'll never know, right?
We'll never know, and I won't
be able to experience that.
But, and I also don't think I know
when comedians do certain things,
I feel like I'm talking so much,
even though it's like my podcast.
I usually like talk like, you
know, but you were talking
like for a good while too.
So I definitely give you my input
and not just like, pull from you.
So I know that, um, comedians have
the same saying like, are you black
famous or are you like white famous?
Right?
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: And I just never felt
like Tracy Morgan's, uh, and I've
never watched his personal standup.
So just the things that I know of, like
Saturday Night Live and all of his movies,
I never felt like he was black coded.
And that's not a bad thing.
Right?
Like someone like, uh.
I don't even wanna say Martin Lawrence.
I'm trying to go back to Comic
View, if y'all remember Comic
View, but you know, go like to
Bruce Bruce and stuff like that.
Like where they were definitely
talking about like the black
experience and it being like hilarious.
And like Mike Epson, he was like younger.
Um, I, I've never felt that
way about Tracy Morgan.
I just thought he was funny.
Yeah, I'm like, anybody can laugh at it.
It's Tracy Morgan, but like if you don't
understand the black culture, like a comic
view is not gonna be that funny for you.
Like, which was Yeah, all of the black
comedians would come out and they would do
like standups a little bit after another.
Yeah.
Um, and there was also, what was
it, comedy Def Jam too, where
Martin Lawrence used to host it.
That was like way before
Comic View, I think.
I don't even remember.
I'm sorry.
I don't remember.
Oh my goodness.
But.
Yeah.
So I am not sure about that.
I think,
yeah, like, uh, do you know Michael
Shea from, uh, Saturday nightlife?
He does the news update report.
He's also a comedian.
Akil Fletcher: I probably
do, if I see his face.
Forgive me, I'm terrible with actors.
Junae Benne: No, you're fine.
No, like same.
These are, his name just came to
me because, uh, a part of Michael
Shea's like persona is him, is him
being like, I'm black, but like,
that's not the only thing that I am.
And so his comedy is kind
of interesting to watch.
'cause sometimes he says, he says some
stuff that's just like off the wall
where people would be like, ah, you
know, all skin folk ain't kin folk.
Like, I feel like he says things
that would make people feel that way.
So yeah, it's just very
interesting to watch it now.
Akil Fletcher: I think all of
that makes sense and, you know,
to relate it to all of the stuff
that we've been talking about.
It, it, it, there's definitely like that,
that sort of like black famous, white
famous like argument in that sentence.
Like, sometimes the media
just doesn't speak to,
you know,
a larger white culture and, you know,
there's lots of stuff to engage with.
And in terms of like marketability and
all this other stuff, I'm definitely
not gonna make a, you know, a go, a
go go broke sort of like argument.
But, but you know, often sometimes these
black stories get changed or limited or
tossed in or just like, you know, just
switched out or just, you know, altered
in some way to make it more legible.
And that's when it, it starts to
lose its soul or get one or whatever.
In those cases, like the movie
Soul, um, from my understanding was
never, it was never, it wasn't it,
it didn't have a black character in
mind in early development, right?
Like that was something
that was slotted in.
And some of that, even though
lots of people love that movie
and it's fine, it's great.
My kids loved it, all other stuff.
It's, um, there's still,
there's still issues, right?
There's, there are still things
that, that, like you can tell.
It's like they pulled some punches
when engaging with blackness and you
know, they, that is something that's
happening all throughout media because,
you know, you can talk about like what
media has been made for historically,
who's it been made for, even in
terms of like, who, like cameras were
developed to see in the first place.
Right.
Um, all of it stems and, and influences
what media is going to be today.
And we're getting a lot better,
we're making strides, especially
as access to set technologies
become a lot more equitable and
everybody is, is engaging with it.
But yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna
get moments where, you know, you
just hire Donald Glover to write for
the black character and then that,
that, like, there might be some
cool punchlines, but it's, it, it,
it often feels empty in some cases.
Junae Benne: Yeah, I feel like we talked
about three topics and it just took us
like we just went deeper and deeper and
deeper into those topics, which I love.
I'm into it.
I just feel like there's so much more
we could hit on, so there's definitely
gonna have to be a part two because
now we come to the portion of the
episode with our hot take section.
Ooh, right.
These are for the youngins because
I be scrolling past stuff so quick.
I'd be like, what are they talking about?
Sometimes I don't even have the energy
to like look up the origins of a meme.
Like if it just comes
across, it comes across.
I have so many activity,
Akil Fletcher: toilet history
Junae Benne: I do now.
Literally as of like two days ago.
Oh, wow.
That
Akil Fletcher: nice.
Junae Benne: Because someone made
a video and I saw it in passing.
I didn't like search either.
Um, so yeah, I, I have
so many memes, right?
Like, we were like the OG memers, like
it was a Dave Chappelle show, right?
So first it was like, probably
it was in Living Color, right?
Like, like it was in living Color, SNL
Mad tv, Dave Chappelle, key and Peele.
And then like, you know, there
was these, there were these,
these memes getting created in
between, like physically on paper.
I would love to do a documentary
about like meme mystery,
because I think it's so cool.
Akil Fletcher: That's fascinating.
I've never thought about like,
'cause typically when I think
about like meme history, I think
about the digitized version of it.
But meme history coming out of
a, a sort of skit entertainment
history is a fascinating connection.
I, I would be so interested in like,
going down that rabbit hole, but,
but please go with your hot take.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
You ain't gotta tell me twice
because I love reading documentary.
Like, it'd be so trill and the kids
won't even say trill no more, but like
Akil Fletcher: That's all right.
It'll come back around.
It'll always, I
Junae Benne: it will because it's so good.
Like trill is so, like, there are some
things that are just really, really good.
So, um, I actually have
two things to talk about.
So one is the amount
of layoffs with Bungee.
I saw a lot of people who are
annoyed by it 'cause they're like,
bungee, you have so much money.
Like, what are you doing?
So do you think that part of it.
Is to save money or, um, is to
save money to preserve games?
Or is it to be like, well,
everybody else is doing it.
Here's how we can cut costs
with the bungee layoffs.
Akil Fletcher: Um, I think
it's a few things, right?
And, and I'm not an economist,
economist by any means, but the
reality is, is that every time one of
these tech companies lay a bunch of
people off their stocks rise, right?
Like they, they gain artificial value.
I didn't know that.
In terms just like, yeah.
So they, they gain artificial value in
terms of how they're viewed, how they
make money, and all these other things.
Right?
There is the basic conception of just
like less people to pay more money in the
pocket and on a sort of like financial
quarterly system where, you know, as long
as we're like there, there's a constant
need within any sort of corporation to
have just like never ending growth, right?
It is, it is the pure basis of, of like
capitalistic growth where it's like
you have to grow, grow, grow, grow, and
any sign of shrinking, even being like.
Just the same.
It's a negative.
Right?
So these are some of the ways that
companies maneuver themselves to look as
if they are growing, to look as if they,
they have gained what they need to in that
sort of like quarterly, uh, expression.
And unfortunately, capitalistic
movement does not care about the
livelihoods of, of individuals
or of the creation of art, right?
It is what it is.
Don't get me wrong.
Some of these companies have made
amazing pieces of art and games with
talented people that are working at it.
Bungee be just between Halo and Destiny
alone has like wowed and forever changed
the lives of so many other people.
But at the end of the
day, a company is money.
And in order to make that money,
in order to have that, that sort
of rise, they're going to do it.
They're going to drop people off.
And as I look more into it, I'd
be very curious to see like.
What is the direct reason that they're,
they're giving, but it's not just Bungee,
it's Niantic, it's Blizzard, it's Riot,
it's all of these country, I mean, excuse
me, countries, all of these companies
that are consistently laying people off.
And it's, it is a scary time to
be working in the gaming industry.
Right.
It is a weird, a weird, weird, weird
experience to say that like academia feels
more stable in terms of like the working
market than the gaming industry does.
And that is insane because if
anybody's familiar with like what
the academic market is, there
are a lot of people with PhDs.
There are like Eden Campbell
soup on a couch, right?
It is.
It is.
It is.
It is what it is.
There are more PhDs than there are like
positions available to individuals and
both are incredibly precarious, but.
Like, I've thought about making that
switch from academia to industry, and
I legitimately thinking about like
the wellbeing of my daughters and my
wife and my family, they gotta eat.
And I, I'm not sure the gaming industry
can, can, you know, I couldn't afford
them just being like, you know,
pack up your stuff, stop to go, bro.
Um, but yeah,
Junae Benne: please, you know what, I
think as you say all of that, because
me and my friend have been continuously
having this conversation around
entrepreneurship, uh, because I started a
business consulting, uh, company to help
small and medium businesses to grow more.
Because as these layoffs are happening,
as nothing is certain, I think it's a good
idea to have a sense of entrepreneurship.
And it's frustrating to hear about these
layoffs and these companies because.
They could have hired these people as
a contract, even though people who, who
are contractors get frustrated because
they're like, I can't take a day off.
I can't afford to get sick because I don't
get sick days because I'm in an employee.
I have to do this, I have to do that.
And on top of having a contract, you
know, there's that non-compete thing,
which also makes it hard to like
secure multiple, um, places at a time.
Right?
Like, and, and, and you
know, like that makes sense.
Like you don't wanna be at like
bungee and like naughty dog, right?
Like doing Yeah, I get,
it's, it's not fair.
Uh, but I would really have
preferred for everyone to just
be more of a contractor, right?
So like you have, so you have to tell me.
60 to 90 days before you're laying
me off and then you still pay me.
Like I know these people are getting
severance packages, but there are
a lot of people who are getting
laid off at smaller indie companies
where they're like, yeah, sorry.
Like, we just gotta go and,
you know, it's, it's this week.
Um, and then having this more, I I,
that probably def defeats the purpose
of like capitalism though, to like have
more people able to work how they need
to work versus being like, I am hoarding
all of your time, all of these years.
Yeah.
All of these resources.
I'm canceling your position and
that game that you worked on, that's
probably can't go in your portfolio
because you know, there's this, yeah,
it's an QDA and stuff like that.
So I definitely would like to push, I
know it's not for everybody, but even
just to secure like your lifestyle
and the lifestyle that you want to
live when these companies are like,
I had to, I had to turn down a job
'cause I was like, I'm contract only.
And they're like, we're
looking for a full-time.
And I'm like, you can get all
of the hours that you want
outta me that you're paying for.
That's like reasonable, but like,
I'm not about to just work for you.
Got it.
Like that is
Akil Fletcher: a hot take.
Okay.
No, I think, I think your reasoning
is solid simply because like there
are, like if you are already mobile
and you can take a lot of stuff,
then you know, that's perfectly fine.
But like there that, that, that feels
like it hearkens to like gig economy
where it's like you're just taking job
after job after job and that puts you in
a place where benefits are, are limited.
You know, you don't have
stability in some cases.
'cause sometimes work comes and
then doesn't come in some cases,
I guess on a small pushback.
I think just give them the benefits
that contracting has to the
people who are already employed.
If you just make the jobs better, then
I don't think there'd be a fear to take
them in some of these cases, but yeah.
Junae Benne: I agree with that.
And I also would say I should
be able to charge you whatever
my health insurance is.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: For as many months as, you
know, we, we are going to be together.
Agreed.
Like, I should get to bill you and be
like, uh, I should get to bill you and be
like, you know, my insurance is $6,000,
you know, for the next six months.
And so this does this portion of
it, it doesn't get taxed, it doesn't
get, you know, any of those things.
Like it's just a part of my fee.
But maybe they have to
work that in another way.
Because if I sign a contract with you
and I'm like, Hey, like by the way
you're paying for my insurance, you're
paying for like, you know, this, this
and that, and then me being like a
person who can get pregnant, I'm like,
yeah, I am also, you know, doing this,
but like this is a job that I could
probably do on maternity leave before,
like I actually have to deliver.
You're gonna be like, why would I pay
for all that when I get an employee?
And it's like, Nope, it's actually
more expensive if you do that.
Or like if the gig contractors, if the
gig workers make it as expensive to be
an employee, I think you have a better
chance, right, of like getting the job.
Because I know they wanna take
gigs because they're cheaper.
But realistically, gig workers
are only gonna be for people who
are like healthy able bodied 20
to like 25 year olds, I think.
If everything is the same price.
Socialism.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: Once again, you know,
defeating the purpose of capitalism.
Then we could very well be like, well,
what's the difference between hiring
an employee and hiring a gig worker?
You know, you have less commitment with
the gig worker, but everyone's also of
this mindset of like, if you're a gig
worker, you're not gonna work as hard.
It's like, how about I wanna be here?
Like, I I applied to be here
because you know, that like I could
be anywhere else in the world.
Yeah.
You know, like, we're here.
And so, uh, that mindset would
also have to change as well.
So a lot of changing of minds
and a lot of changing of how,
like business works would be,
Akil Fletcher: I mean,
Junae Benne: make it work.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
That's, that is an insane task, which
is because there's all these, there's,
there's all these arbitrary rules
when it really just comes down to
like, pay people what they're worth.
Yeah.
And give them the things that
they, they need and benefit.
Right.
And since we want to get on a
a a A, I'm not gonna go too far
into socialism, but like Yeah.
Healthcare for all basic medical
stuff covered, you know, throw
education in there, right?
Like there like, like I
don't need my company.
To, to, like, I don't need my
workplace to be providing every,
every step of, of the way.
As long as they're giving me every
benefit that that is necessary.
If I can have, or everybody else
has basic access to stuff, you'll
have healthier workers, you'll
have more productive workers.
The irony of like wanting to work
people 80 hours a week is that
people are more productive and 30,
you know, it is what it's right.
Like you avoid burnout, you
avoid all these other things.
Right.
And you're right.
That's just, it's just a mindset to,
has to have to like how the, what we
view as productivity and work needs
to, trans need to be transformed.
And, you know, the pandemic was the first
time that, well, not the first time,
but was, was a moment in which that we
really were considering like, what is
work and like what does it really need
to be from all the folks that were like
quitting their jobs and finding, you
know, passion projects and working at
home and doing all these other things.
But, you know, now that that has
seemed to have come and went, folks are
really reeling it back into the status
quo as, as everybody gets, you know,
called back to the office and all these
other things, which is unfortunate.
I. I was hoping that a global pandemic
would have a little bit more of a, a
radical impression on, you know, corporate
life in America, but foolish me, silly me.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
I think, you know, anytime we're on
the verge of like, change or like,
um, a big movement that could lead to
change for at least the next generation.
Yeah.
Uh, we get complacent.
You know, they was like, here's
two stacks for being in a panini.
Thanks.
You know, like that was it.
And people was like, I
guess this is not so bad.
And it's like, it could
have been better though.
And I'm not saying like they could have
gave us five stacks, like they $5,000.
I'm saying it could have
been better afterward.
'cause now you wouldn't be like,
well now I'm looking for a job
in a recession because they want
me to come back to the office.
Like, you wouldn't, you
wouldn't be doing that.
So it's, it's,
Akil Fletcher: yeah.
Junae Benne: But you know, I always
get radical when I talk about it
and like, you know, maybe I'm not
doing everything I can do either.
Right.
So like, maybe that's
why it hasn't happened.
Maybe Janae hasn't done her part.
Right.
And that's why everything
is still how it is.
I
Akil Fletcher: dunno.
Issues are systemic, not
individual, so That's true.
That's
Junae Benne: true.
Don't
Akil Fletcher: get me wrong.
Everybody has a, everybody has
a piece to play, but Right.
Like just the failure of
bureaucracy in and of itself.
Right.
To get one person to move, it takes the
person in front of them to get to, to step
out the way and all these other things.
So it's, it, these are systemic problems.
If there's not change at the
top, then you, we can recycle and
do all the things that we want.
Yeah.
We're still heading towards, you
know, ecological disaster and,
you know, a weird Octavia butler
hyper, you know, racist apocalypse.
But it is, it is.
It's, it's interesting.
None.
Junae Benne: My last hot take.
'cause I guess that was three.
'cause you said I had one, so,
Akil Fletcher: no, you're good.
You're good.
Junae Benne: My last hot take, uh, about
the blizzard welcoming unionization,
how does that like look?
How does that work?
Like,
Akil Fletcher: Ooh.
Junae Benne: Yes.
That's a good, right.
We've always told that unions are good,
but people secretly try to, uh, make them
not happen because it's not, you know,
beneficial for the company's pockets.
Even though I don't know the numbers
on how much, it's not beneficial, but
I don't feel like it's like a lot.
Right.
I feel like if company A is making
$500 and then, you know, their
workers decide to unionize, I feel
like they act like they make $200.
Yeah.
And I don't think that's the case.
Akil Fletcher: Yeah.
Junae Benne: So.
That was my little math example.
Akil Fletcher: It's okay.
We're math in, we're math,
mathematical, adventure time.
Sorry, I watch a lot.
Math.
Oh
Junae Benne: my gosh.
No, I was just about to say mathematical.
Ah, yes.
I love adventure time,
Akil Fletcher: but it's, it's great.
But yeah, so unions are such a, a,
a, a weird thing to discuss, right?
Because if you look at unions
for what they are in the quote
unquote status quo that we have,
unions are typically a net good.
They are something that should be
supported, unionized, wherever you can.
It is what it's, unfortunately, unions
do not solve the systemic issues.
That need unions for the first place.
And for this, it's, it can be
difficult to speak to organizing
folks because it's sort of like a
step that needs to be taken, right?
Like we, like everybody understands
that unions isn't going to fix the fix,
the fact that capitalism is all driving
us to, you know, extinction, whatever.
Um, but they're the only form
of fighting back that we have.
And I feel like I'm gonna be taken
outta context for saying, you know,
capitalism driving is no extinction.
It was, it was hyperbole.
Everyone,
Junae Benne: I will specifically
take you out of context
Akil Fletcher: so
Junae Benne: no one
else will do it for you.
Yeah.
Akil Fletcher: Take, I mean, come back
in, in, in like, you know, 500 years.
We'll see, we'll see, you know,
how the human race is doing.
But, but that being said, right
it under the conditions that we
currently live, unions are one
of the few tools that we have.
And that can be seen by, as you pointed
out, how heavily companies work.
To break them up or to Union bust.
Right.
And Blizzard was not, you know, unique
in this effort, in this case, I had
the opportunity to speak to a few
of the organizing folks, like back
when it was just like rumbling when
I was doing my dissertation research.
And it was very hush hush.
Nobody could like, like we had to
like, be personally or use was like
off, you know, they couldn't use
their, their, their own computer
screens and anything else like that.
Like anything that might have like
given, like tipped off Blizzard,
because that's the smart organizing.
Don't tell the people that
you're organizing because, you
know, they'll mess stuff up.
Um, but it was really a concerted
effort by a lot of folks who
for a long time wanted to see.
Some level of equity be given to,
to, you know, game to, to game
developers and workers, right?
Like, as we pointed out,
it's such a precarious field.
It's such a precarious job.
You need some level of protections.
And many people weren't, many people were
just left off in Blizzard, of course,
being a horrific example of in the
ways in which people were not protected
through all of its multiple court cases
against the, you know, the state of
California and all these other things.
Um, and while those cases were going
on, people were like whispering
and getting to getting their best
together to put a union together.
So four years later, it is, it is
pretty dope to see that they got it
together and they, they, they, they
put it together as, as this will be
the first step into providing them the
equity that, that they deserve and, and,
and what they need to, to engage with.
Um, so yeah, that, you know, support your
unions, do what you gotta do and, and
I hope more companies follow suit and.
Helping rather than busting their unions.
And I have very little hope for that.
But you know, there, there's
always, there's always a a time
where a company will surprise me.
Sometimes they'll just pull up Ben and
Jerry's and I'm just like, oh shit, cool.
You know, you're doing something
that's like morally good without
public interference or intervention.
That is, and it is technically
our responsibility to hold
companies accountable.
So it is what it is.
Companies are gonna company.
It's, it's up to the people to
make sure that they company the
way that we want them to, you know?
So either way,
Junae Benne: yeah, that,
that was really good.
I time I see Ben and Jerry's and I see the
price, I'm like, it's for a good cause.
So
Akil Fletcher: for
Junae Benne: you really
Akil Fletcher: it's the flavors for me.
Like, just, just gimme
some red glass ice cream.
Like I don't need.
That's true too.
Pops.
I don't want Garcia Cherry.
You're doing too much better.
Cherry.
I'm sorry.
Yeah.
But,
Junae Benne: but
Akil Fletcher: it is for a good cause.
Junae Benne: It's for a good cause,
you know, and I, and I think.
We should look at things that way.
I, okay, before I turn this into
another hot take, there, there was a
conversation about making games like $75.
Well, I think they're
$75 right now, right?
They're like 65, 70.
I would tax might as
Akil Fletcher: well be.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
Like, so making games over $75 because
they were like, some of that money
would go directly to the developer.
And it's like, well, why don't you just
pay the developer instead of like, where's
the $75 going to in the first place?
Like, these games are taking
you probably $12 to make.
Right?
Like maybe they cost way
Akil Fletcher: more to make them Sorry,
but you're, you're, you're right in the
sense of just like, just pay them more.
They, they do have, they have it, right?
It is, it is what it's,
Junae Benne: yeah.
So,
um, I am okay with paying more,
right, which is also socialism.
I know I keep saying that, but like
it just keeps coming up every time I'm
like, well, why can't we all have it?
And it's like, oh, you're
talking about social socialism?
It's like, oh, that's kind of hard.
That's kind of hard for
me to like rationalize.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, because, whew.
Anyhoo, before I backtrack, um.
Paying more for something to help
more people is essentially socialism.
And I do feel like though, if we were
to explain things without using the
trigger words of like socialism, I think
a lot more people would be onto it.
Right?
Because they've been taught to
like, hate these words, right?
They've been taught that they're
woke, they've been taught that,
you know, woke means something.
Akil Fletcher: It's, I
always look like I'm sleepy.
So like if anytime somebody
says woke, I have to make sure
that my eyes somehow widen.
Yeah.
Junae Benne: I'd be like,
I'm, I'm, I'm wide awake.
Like that Katy Perry song.
Um.
We won't even talk about woke.
But woke doesn't mean what
they're telling y'all.
It means it was for black people to
realize that the government was really
putting drugs into the black communities
and then busting the black drug dealers.
So they wasted all of this money.
Wait, the black dads go,
Akil Fletcher: why?
They blamed the why They
blamed in the family structure.
Junae Benne: That's the whole
Akil Fletcher: thing.
So you're right.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
So that's what being woke is, right.
They wasted all this money putting the
drugs into the black community just to
waste more money to monitor the black
drug dealers who were at that time doing
way more for the community, which the.
Feds could have took that money.
The C could have took that money
to also help the community.
Okay.
But, um, you know, so it's not,
it's not the derogatory term.
It's not the new N word.
Stop using it like that.
Like D-I-D-E-I is also not the new
N word either, you know, that meets
hiring somebody who's a paraplegic.
Like, you know, they, they have
the separate Olympics for a reason.
Right.
Actually, they could
probably come by anyways.
I'm just thinking out loud now.
So I'm just saying, let's Google words
individually, like let's get the actual
dictionary definition and not like the
first thing that comes up on Google,
because Google will give you an answer
you want depending on the area you're in.
Akil Fletcher: That
echo chamber will echo.
Junae Benne: Mm-hmm.
Echo, echo, echo,
echo, echo.
Okay.
I'm gonna end this episode because.
There's always more to talk about, like
let me know if y'all want me to do a
three hour podcast and then I'll let
everybody I know who comes on that.
We are gonna sit here and we're gonna
talk for three hours and hopefully
by two and a half we'll run out of
things to say and we'll just start
saying stuff from Adventure Time.
But I just don't think that's the case.
Yeah, it's not gonna happen.
I don't, I don't, I don't
think that's the case like.
Anyways, IL, thank you for being here.
I, I know I'm getting loud now.
That's okay.
But thank you.
Thank you so much for
having me, for being here.
Yeah, this has been great because
usually at the beginning of the
podcast I tell the people like, oh,
uh, you know, I've met this person
like once, but like, uh, we have been
in like the same Twitter space back
when Twitter was cool and it wasn't X.
Um, and then we met at GDC and
then we had that brief conversation
at like a GDC, like after event.
So it wasn't even like at the
actual place because you just meet
a lot of people outside of the, the
best stuff happens outside of GDC.
Akil Fletcher: Sorry, I'm, I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, it's
Junae Benne: true though.
It's true.
Like a lot of the current relationships
I have now is because of outside of GDC,
so, um, just thanks for talking to me
and like, you know, I felt like I knew
like a little bit about you, so this has
really been a pleasure to like know more.
Hear what you gotta say.
And I feel like that's why I was
quiet, because I'm like, yeah.
I'm like, tell us more and
then let me ask more questions.
Akil Fletcher: I am happy
to, to rock either way.
I am, you know, if I rewatch this,
I'll see if I talk too much and
then, you know, I'll cringe, but eh.
No,
that's okay.
I hope whatever I said was helpful and you
know, like I said, happy to do this, happy
to be here and, you know, if you ever
need to, to chat again, happy to do it.
I literally can sit here for three
hours and talk about like, all the
adventure time, you know, plot.
Oh yeah, the memes, the theories.
No,
Junae Benne: because it's
deep, like, it's deep.
Like his mom, like the island,
like Suzanne, like, like got
Akil Fletcher: gold going on.
Like what?
Like, like my, the,
like, what my cosmic like
Junae Benne: the, the new, the
new like Fiona, like, oh please.
There's so much, there's so
much, there's so much of it.
Yeah.
Thanks for being here, you guys.
So where can the people find you?
Like what should they look out for?
Where should they,
where can they find you?
Are you working on anything?
Cool.
My
Akil Fletcher: God.
Um, I'm still on that X page, whatever,
attic Hill, Fletcher, because, you
know, uh, the black is black major
was taken and I'm, I'm too lazy to
think of another name right now.
Uh,
okay.
That
being said, um, I guess I'm also on
Instagram and anything else you can find
me, um, got my website@kefletcher.com.
Check stuff out there if
there's anything you wanna read.
Um, I have some writing
on Google Scholar as well.
And you know, in the back of my
mind, I'm still working on my
book project, which hopefully by
2026 I, they, they will have that.
So be on the lookout for, you know, what
is tentatively titled, playing in Color.
And, you know, a wonderful exploration
of how black gamers build worlds.
So, yeah,
Junae Benne: dope.
So.
This has been Akil.
Hilel is amazing.
Definitely go check out his work.
Um, as usual, I am Janae.
This is the end of gaming for the culture.
If you would like to support the
podcast, you can do so through Patreon
and the Patreon, uh, subscribers.
They get it first as well as
they get to ask questions in
real time to all of our guests.
If you would like to follow
me, I'm Jana Benet everywhere.
Anywhere.
Uh, only follow me
online, not in real life.
That make me scared.
Uh, or not really.
You'd probably be scared.
So, you know, that's just, that's
just a little bit of advice, right?
Um, don't write up all her.
Y'all continue to give save because
you never know what that thing is.
And I keep okay.
You just never know.
You just never know.
It could be a Bible.
It could be abl, it could be both.
It could be two and one.
You just never
Akil Fletcher: know.
So, Pearl Gates.
So
Junae Benne: I'm just,
you wanna see him today?
Like I could introduce you.
What's up?
Let's not promote Violet.
We promote anti stocking, not Violet.
This has been another amazing episode.
Um, you guys, if there's anybody that you
want me to talk to, I would love for you
to reach out and tell me who it is or tell
them to get in contact with me either way.
Uh, thank you so much for watching
this episode, and I think we're like
halfway through our season two at this
point, so like, we're almost done.
This is amazing and I couldn't
be here without all of y'all.
And obviously GSN Gifted
Sounds and Network, they are
the sponsors for this podcast.
So until next time, game safely.
Be kind, think about socialism.
Just, just have a trickle
of a thought of it.
The next time you go to the
grocery store and eggs are like
$5, just think about outrageous.
That's all.
It's too much.
Bye.