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If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
00:11 - 00:30
Peter Englert: Welcome to the Why God Why podcast. My name is Peter Englert. We are a part of Browncroft Community Church and the LumaVoz Network at a Saddleback Church We exist to respond to the questions you don't feel comfortable asking in church Aaron we are here with some local pastors to talk about hell.
00:30 - 00:56
Aaron McGinnis: We yeah It's I think you said who what better than getting 4 pastors together to talk about hell. And today we have some special friends from over on the never eat shredded wheat west side of Rochester, New York. We have Stephen Nichols and Bob Reeves from Calvary Assembly, some great friends over there. Why don't you guys just introduce yourselves real quick?
00:56 - 01:26
Bob Reeves: Sure, yeah. Bob Reeves, the oldest of 5 kids. My parents became believers after I was born and my dad wound up going into ministry. So I was raised as a pastor's kid. Makes me the most dangerous of all the species and wound up not intentionally going to ministry. I wanted to go into law but At the end of my undergrad degree felt a course correction and so I came to pastor Calvary assembly 26 years ago
01:28 - 01:36
Peter Englert: 1 of my favorite stories is when he talks about they were rebuilding Calvary and he said I don't care what you do just don't put fluorescent lights
01:41 - 01:43
Bob Reeves: I told him for us the lights is up the devil
01:52 - 01:53
Peter Englert: Anyways Steve, what are you to do?
01:53 - 01:54
Bob Reeves: She's a
01:54 - 02:00
Steven Nichols: great lead-in. My name is Steven, and I never started in ministry. I'm an electrician, and I install
02:01 - 02:02
Peter Englert: fluorescent lights.
02:03 - 02:34
Steven Nichols: So I started, my dad owns an electrical company and I still work with that company, but that was my whole intention my whole life is to be an electrician and to work in my family company. And then 2017 felt like there was kind of this call to ministry and started Volunteering a lot and eventually got the opportunity to work at Calvary and I was attending at that time Got involved as youth pastor there and then I'm currently the discipleship pastor at Calvary And have a wife and a son Gabriel and we're expecting our second in August.
02:34 - 02:37
Steven Nichols: So yeah fun times at the Nichols house right now
02:38 - 03:13
Peter Englert: well Congratulations, we should say our question for today is why would a good God? Why would a loving God will help people to go to hell? I think for our listeners to know the reason we asked Steve and Bob is this is a Technical theological question, but it's also a pastoral question And so I think having 2 individuals with your character and manner. I think it's really important. So where, I guess I want to start, and I might go a little off script with this, is have you both encountered this question, like in counseling or at
03:13 - 03:18
Peter Englert: dinners? Why don't you share a story about that or just how it comes up?
03:19 - 04:00
Bob Reeves: Yeah, there are people who are hell-conscious. And so, they very much need to believe that a place like that exists as some kind of cosmic justice to make things that they have seen in life right. And so they have counseling issues that appear very different than the counseling issues that come from, I feel I'm on the wrong side of that equation. And there's this kind of, we talk about eternal security. There's almost an eternal insecurity where people are constantly afraid they're going to wind up in a place that's void of anything in the presence of God
04:00 - 04:38
Bob Reeves: and filled full of torture. And so it does come up in counseling. But I would say primarily the conversation will come up with students and college students that their interest is more academic. They're trying to... Gordon McDonald talks about this. He said in his life he had a number of conversions. His first conversion was really to please his parents. And then he said about the time that hormones started kicking in, he had another conversion because he knew if he went the way his hormones were going, he was going to get in trouble. And then he said
04:38 - 04:58
Bob Reeves: when he got to college, he had a conversion where he had to integrate his faith and spirituality. And I think that I get more of those questions from that demographic just because that's what's happening How can you justify what sounds so absolutely horrible and lay that at the feet of a God that we've been told is so so gracious and kind
04:59 - 05:38
Aaron McGinnis: Yeah, I mean I I really resonate with that I know for me many of my friends especially a little older than me that the concept of hell and even justice, like it has been so difficult to grasp. I wasn't gonna share this, but there is a story where I went to a conference, the International Justice Mission Conference, with 17 other individuals. We were young adults at the time, and there's an incredibly powerful story shared about this woman, this 4 foot 9 woman who ended up putting away the most people ever that had child trafficking. And the
05:38 - 06:09
Aaron McGinnis: rumor, you know, she tells this story, the rumor erupts with clapping, these people who are doing this terrible thing, you know, were found guilty. And wow, clap, clap, clap. And I look, and next to me in this This row of young adults 17 of us. There's probably about 12 of us who were not clapping This and really wrestled when we left from that They're like, how can you clap for all these humans who are going to be suffering the rest of their lives, who are going to be thrown behind bars, they're not gonna, like, how can
06:09 - 06:45
Aaron McGinnis: we clap about that? So this, I think I've seen a bunch of people trip up with this, hey, this loving God that I've been told about is now enacting justice. I hear these stories. And then there's this concept of hell. And from my perspective, what I see a lot of people wrestling with that, I've seen maybe 3, but 2 maybe unhelpful ways of thinking through that. 1 is I'm just gonna kind of ignore it. I'm just gonna believe that maybe it doesn't exist. Maybe I just don't have to think about it. Or maybe I'll pass lead
06:45 - 07:16
Aaron McGinnis: to the... Or they really grapple with it and they come to the conclusion, if there is a hell, then there is not a loving God. And what I've been told is just, it's just not true. And I'll see you, I'll see you somewhere else, but not in the church, you know? So it's been a hugely important topic, especially That I don't think we've dealt with well, especially in the Western Even white church culture Yeah, so well or
07:16 - 07:40
Peter Englert: I kind of want to go with that. I actually really pre Aaron and Steve you're I feel like I'm the middle child and all of this But you know just you recently moved from being a youth pastor to a discipleship pastor probably that story resonates with you a lot. I mean, how have you shifted with this conversation going from students to adults? What's similar? What's different?
07:40 - 08:11
Steven Nichols: Yeah, it's really interesting. So I actually, I grew up in a church that, For lack of a better term, it just held much of the turn or burn mentality. So hell growing up was just an unbelievably overwhelming conversation that was being had. In fact, I remember when in youth group We had like a winter retreat and there was a girl there and she found out about hell for the first time And she like had a panic attack and like her parents had to come pick her up because it was just so It was such a fear
08:11 - 08:49
Steven Nichols: tactic in some way of how how it was being used in that context so man it was it is it can be an incredibly fearful thing, and that's not, that has not gone away. Like teenagers still today, question especially as you said, Aaron, just young people, anyone in general, especially young people, just have this really, really deep skepticism of a God that could fully be just and loving at the same time. And it's a really weird dynamic because it's not a secret that our culture, especially young people, love justice right now. We love, love justice. But
08:49 - 09:17
Steven Nichols: we become wildly uncomfortable when real justice has to take place as well too. And I don't know what that is. And I'm not like excluding myself from that either, that when we see the justice of God, we become uncomfortable. And there's this weird dynamic where we really want justice, but when it comes to place, we're like, no, not that kind of justice. So I don't know what that is, but it is strange. And I see it in teenagers, I see it myself, young adults, it's not going away.
09:17 - 09:56
Peter Englert: So let's let's jump into the misconceptions because I think that you both set us up really well. It's like you do your own podcast, right? So for people outside the church, it seems like why would a loving God allow people to go to hell? Seems very unfair. Seems very maddening. But then you get the idea of justice, Adolf Hitler. Well, of course he, he went to hell. And then I don't want to oversimplify but I think this is just good framing So obviously this isn't perfect. But you know for christians There's this other I like bob's
09:56 - 10:20
Peter Englert: term the eternal insecurity Of I'm never going to be good enough, to like, grace is very selective and earned. So as you think of those 2 frameworks, what do you think people are getting wrong about hell? What are the other misconceptions, whether someone inside the church or someone that might be doubting or deconstructing. 1 of
10:20 - 10:50
Steven Nichols: the things I'd say first off the bat that again I would use this as kind of a framework. I don't know if this is specifically about what hell is or isn't, but I do think that the church has often used hell as a motivator for people to make a decision, and it's a true thing in general that fear works, that if you can get somebody to fear something, you can control their entire lives. So it's not even just a hell thing, it's just in general. But I do think, man, the church has done so much damage
10:51 - 11:23
Steven Nichols: attempting to get people to want to follow Jesus by just using the tactic of fear and the judgment and the justice of God to get them to make a decision or to live a certain way. And that has done so much damage. And I think it's just important to name that right off the bat, that we should recognize that. And I just don't see that in the way that Jesus or his apostles operated, that they weren't utilizing fear tactics in order to get people to make a decision on something. That is not to say that people
11:23 - 11:47
Steven Nichols: should not have a clear understanding of the reality of who God is in his justice and judgment. That's not the point. But as the primary lead motivator to make a decision towards Jesus has done so much damage and built a ton of mistrust. So I would just name that right off the bat that I think there is room for improvement in the church for that conversation specifically.
11:48 - 11:49
Peter Englert: Bob, what would you add?
11:50 - 12:28
Bob Reeves: I like that a lot. I think that the idea that God issues ultimatums and this is how he gets us to follow him, You don't see that in the ministry of Jesus. He attracts people to God. He doesn't scare people away from whatever it is they're doing. I also think there's a, I think everybody would be perfectly comfortable with health. It didn't last forever. I think that everybody thinks, okay, given what I've done in my life, 30 days, some people 6 months, some people maybe 10 years, the idea that it goes forever is the thing that
12:28 - 13:09
Bob Reeves: really bothers people. It's not just, it's a bad place or it's an intense place, it's a torturous place. It's a forever place. I think that's and I think the reason we struggle with that has to do with our misunderstanding of forgiveness, believe it or not. For example, in ministry you will occasionally find yourself in ICU units of a hospital, visiting someone who has been through a horrific accident or a horrible prognosis. And there'll be people standing around them. And sometimes there have been rifts in families where people have not talked for years. And all of a
13:09 - 13:44
Bob Reeves: sudden there are tears and there are expressions of forgiveness. And it's very easy to go, Oh, they forgave. Did they forgive or are they calculating this person has suffered enough that now I can release them? And so when you think about hell, So now when you think about hell, that's how they think about it. And if you don't understand the forgiveness of God, then there's something about the duration of hell that just seems out of sorts. And so we have to start with understanding forgiveness or we won't understand anything else.
13:45 - 13:51
Aaron McGinnis: In the sense that forgiveness is not a release because you've done your time. It's, right.
13:51 - 14:16
Bob Reeves: It's forgiveness, right? The word give is in it. You are forgiving. It's really fascinating. And so when God comes and he forgives us, there's a lot of people who struggle with that. I have to pay in some way for the things that I've done to try to even the scales. And but I really do think that when we think about how I think everybody would agree with hell as a viable option if it didn't last forever.
14:17 - 14:50
Aaron McGinnis: Wow. That's really fascinating. Well, you will. There's so many things triggering my mind. I think of my wife and what she grew up and how she was taught about hell and reading left behind and going to a hell house and text your friends because they're about to go to like she went through all this and she's she's we're not that far away that was 10 15 years ago we're not that far away so there's a lot of misconceptions I mean most of us our view of hell comes from theatrical you know Hollywood concoctions of what hell
14:50 - 15:15
Aaron McGinnis: looks like and things like that. So as you guys are wading through these questions, you're trying to think through this, you're understanding these misconceptions. Where did your study go? Where did you, were you able to find thoughts of like, you know what, I want to make an informed decision or I want to be informed on what Jesus actually talks about, what the Bible actually says. Where did that lead you both? Yeah.
15:16 - 15:47
Bob Reeves: That's, That's a good question. My first surprise is I can remember people telling me Jesus talked more about how they knew dead about heaven. And I believed them until I checked it for myself. And as it turns out, he didn't talk nearly as much about how he did about the kingdom of heaven, about God, about grace. So when you find the examples that he does speak about it, there's not a lot of them. I counted up about 9 in the New Testament and probably 2 of them he might not be referring to hell, he may be
15:47 - 16:25
Bob Reeves: referring to something else. So now we have a very limited amount of scriptural data to mine to try to understand what's going on. There are some references in the Old Testament as well, But for me, someone who really helped me understand and form how to interpret those passages was C.S. Lewis. He talks about hell in metaphorical ways, but not, if you asked him if he believes it's a real place, he would say, absolutely. And yet, he uses metaphorical language because it helps us understand things, I think, a little bit better. There are times when we need
16:25 - 16:40
Bob Reeves: the metaphor or the simile, the parable, to unpack a thing because we don't have anything in reality that we can see enough clearly to be able to identify exactly what's going on.
16:40 - 16:42
Peter Englert: Steve, would you add anything to that?
16:42 - 17:12
Steven Nichols: No, I would say very similarly that I think if we are talking about something more often than Jesus talked about it, that should be a real indicator for us as to where we should align our values and what's important. And so actually, C.S. Lewis, I would agree with that as well. He has a book, I don't know if I can recommend books or not, but The Great Divorce, which was so, so helpful for me to get an idea of what this whole idea of hell is even. And he used very metaphoric language, but again, it's not
17:12 - 17:40
Steven Nichols: to say that this is not a legitimate place, but it is to give a framework of what is hell actually like and what does it do and what is the purpose of it. And so that book was really helpful. This is not just to boost Pastor Bob up, but listening to Pastor Bob for the past decade has been very helpful as well, as I have grown in my faith, because again, I came out of like hell, hell, hell, hell all the time, like say the salvation prayer right now, because if a bus hits you tomorrow, you
17:40 - 17:53
Steven Nichols: don't know where you're going to go. And so just years of discipleship under people Who I felt like had a healthier view of scripture a healthier understanding of how it operates That was very helpful for me as a young individual
17:53 - 18:28
Peter Englert: Now we assume that because our listeners are awesome. All of them are going to hear about the great divorce and they're going to go read it But for those of them that aren't gonna, for those of them that probably aren't, you know, the main metaphor is the main characters on a bus. The bus is driving towards hell. There's multiple iterations and kind of similes and metaphors and opportunities to kind of step out of there, you know, give between the both of you, give kind of our listeners a picture of that, because even before you jump into
18:28 - 18:31
Peter Englert: the Bible, it might be helpful to start there.
18:31 - 18:59
Steven Nichols: Yeah. So I'm going to wait to share some things, because I know you have some really good thoughts that I think I'm going to hold on. But I think just the premise of that book was simply that the people who were on this bus and were going to hell, that it talks about how you can actually go further into hell. Like there's different layers that you can go further that the longer you spent there. The idea is that the further that you go into hell, again, it's metaphoric, the further you go into hell, the harder your
18:59 - 19:11
Steven Nichols: heart gets over time and the more just self-absorbed you become as you go in. And we have this idea, we were talking about this at staff today actually, we have this idea that if...
19:11 - 19:13
Bob Reeves: We were talking about hell. That's what happened.
19:13 - 19:18
Peter Englert: Well, we... What do pastors do? We preach on Sunday, talk about hell on Wednesdays.
19:19 - 19:50
Steven Nichols: Behind the curtain in preparation for this podcast, we told them like, hey, do you guys want to talk about this so we can be prepared for this podcast? But the point being is that we have this assumption that if I were in hell, that the people in hell right now are, they're dying to get out, that they can't wait. If they had the opportunity to get out of hell, they would, they jump on it. And that's operating under the assumption that you get better when you go to hell. And what I mean by that is that
19:50 - 20:19
Steven Nichols: if you're living a life where you're rejecting God, you're rejecting his presence, why do we believe that when you die and you go to hell, you will get better and you will see, oh, I was wrong the whole time. And Romans 1 talks about this, where the judgment of God is revealed to us in a way where it's not that God comes in and slaps us with an open hand, that's not the judgment of God, but it's more of a posture that He opens up His hand and He releases us over to our own decisions. And
20:20 - 20:49
Steven Nichols: I don't think we fully understand the grace, even for those of us who are far from God, the grace and the love that we are surrounded from God all the time, but over time that God will release His hand and allow us to go down the path and experience the consequences of our own actions. And I think there's something very true about that when it comes to hell, that hell is the ultimate God saying, I'm just going to release you over to your own decisions and to your own actions, and you are now going to feel
20:49 - 20:55
Steven Nichols: the full weight, the full responsibility, the full ramifications of a life lived without God,
20:55 - 21:23
Steven Nichols: it's going to be devastating for you. And you're not going to get better. People in hell are not saying, oh, if only, if only, they're saying, no, God, you put me here. If only you did this, God, then I wouldn't be here. This is God's fault. And I was right the whole time. And I truly believe that you just become more and more absorbed in your own sin, your own selfishness, your own just person. And I don't think we think about hell that way.
21:23 - 21:54
Aaron McGinnis: Yeah, so you said like, why do we feel like we automatically repent and da da da. And I think it's because we view hell much like, I don't know, Guantanamo Bay or like that scene where they bring out the teeth-pulling devices and it's like, well, of course no one's gonna wanna be tortured. You know, that's like legitimately... So of course we're going to be like, get me out of here. This is bad. And I'm curious what you would say, because this is just something that came up in my mind. I wonder if it's coming up in
21:54 - 22:15
Aaron McGinnis: any of the listeners' minds, is that story of, oh, is it Jesus who says it, of the guy who's... Lazarus? No, he's in hell or something, and he's like, Lord, could you just tell my brothers and sisters? Yeah, it's Lazarus. Yeah, it is Lazarus. Because someone could say, well, isn't that what you're talking about?
22:15 - 22:57
Bob Reeves: I think there's a couple ways to look at that. What's interesting to me is how little this rich man changes given the situation he finds himself in. It's described in very powerful terms. He's tormented by a flame. It's not a good place to be What he says is senalizers With water on the end of his fingers to cool my tongue So what has changed? People in my life are only good for the comfort that they bring to me and the convenience that they add. He doesn't see anybody any different. They're just useful tools in his life.
22:57 - 23:38
Bob Reeves: And while it sounds like he may be saying, you know, if only I had known. There's really a hidden accusation behind his statement. And his hidden accusation is simply this, scripture is insufficient to tell me what's coming next. When you had the law and the prophets, that's not enough. And so there's accusation, there's a complete disregard for anyone other than self. And I think it's C.S. Lewis that says, you know, All the locks on the doors of hell are on the inside. I would go even further and say, there's no doors. There's no gates. Anyone could
23:38 - 23:44
Bob Reeves: leave anytime they want, and they never will because they're right. They're convinced they're right.
23:45 - 24:11
Peter Englert: So I think this is pretty powerful. Would you both say, if you're starting a conversation, obviously your approach and manner, whether it's the theological academic college students or the person that's in your county, What passage or passages would you start by? Let's have a conversation of what Jesus really says. Is it Lazarus or is it somewhere else that you would pick out?
24:11 - 24:45
Bob Reeves: I like the Lazarus passage just simply because it's such a powerful story with strong characters included in it. But anywhere you see Jesus referring to hell, which is not a lot, but when you see him referring to it, there really is a lot of texture to what he's talking about. Like he talks about, you know, if you're given to anger, he said that can be equated to murder. And if you keep going down that road, you're in danger of hell fire. So what is he after? Is he trying to threaten somebody with an outcome or is
24:45 - 25:19
Bob Reeves: he telling them this is how you let hell into your life? You think hell is just a destination and it is, but there's ways to kind of backflow that into your life and you just unleash hell on all kinds of people. And I mean we know this by the way we use the word hell, right? It's not a compliment if somebody tells you, you look like hell. Nobody wants to go to a place where they said, I've been through hell, right? We use this word in very stark and powerful ways. The only exception I can think
25:19 - 25:49
Bob Reeves: of is that was a hell of a job. Other than that, there's just no positive connotation. There's something we understand about that. And so I think when you see Jesus, rather than see it as an eternal punishment, see the warning that's involved, that you're opening your life to something that it's not just a place you're going to wind up, it's what you're going to release in your life now. And I'm not suggesting by that there's not a place. I believe there is. But I think that just like Jesus was constantly saying the kingdom of heaven is
25:49 - 25:54
Bob Reeves: at hand Kingdom of hell is at hand too and people are opening their lives to it in a lot of ways
25:55 - 25:56
Peter Englert: Steve What would you add to that?
25:56 - 26:27
Steven Nichols: Yeah, I would I 1 thing that was helpful for me was to to find other places whether it's in the New Testament or Old Testament, to really study times where God has exhibited or displayed, is probably a better word, judgment. And again, we just always have this view of God's judgment that He's just open hand and slapping somebody, just disciplining anytime there's judgment. But again, back to the Romans, 1 thing I think it's always more a release that I am releasing you over to the consequences of your actions. 1 example of this, this was a new
26:27 - 26:54
Steven Nichols: revelation for me. So I was flabbergasted when I found this out. So in the Old Testament, 1 of the major themes in the Old Testament is that Israel abandons the covenant of God over and over again, and God finally just says, all right, Israel, I'm just gonna let Babylon come in and just do their thing on you and just take over. And I've always, always thought, and I think many do, that God's just saying, I'm just going to use this army, just come in and just mess you up, teach you a lesson for a little bit,
26:54 - 27:24
Steven Nichols: and then I'll come back later and rescue you. And there's a story where, and This is a little bit more history than probably we're bargaining for, but at that time, Assyria was coming in from the south, Babylon was kind of coming in from the north, 2 different empires, Israel's in the middle and they're like, oh shoot, we're in danger here, like somebody's going to mess us up. And the kings of Israel, they were going to decide that in order to protect themselves against Assyria, they were going to line up with the kings of Babylon, and they
27:24 - 27:53
Steven Nichols: were going to get buddy-buddy with Babylon so that way they could protect against Assyria. And God sent prophet after prophet after prophet and said, don't do that. Do not make friends with Babylon. It's not going to work out for you. And they did, they didn't listen to God, and eventually Babylon turned on them and just wiped them out, took them captive, put them into exile. And again, it was just a situation where God says, I told you, do not do this. But now that you are going to do this, I'm going to release you over to
27:53 - 28:00
Steven Nichols: the consequences of your own actions. So I would find those stories of what does God's judgment actually look like in scripture?
28:00 - 28:34
Aaron McGinnis: Yeah, 2 things that come up in my mind when you're talking it reminds me of the story of pharaoh as well god's you know Essentially sending a message sending a prophet. Hey stop, you know like and pharaoh's heart continues to harden It continues to harden and kind of what you're saying. He continues to let hell just flow like a river through him. He's killing, he's oppressing, he's doing all these things and eventually God's like, I'm gonna, you're gonna be your own downfall, you're gonna feel the consequences of your actions. So that's 1 thing that comes up.
28:35 - 28:42
Aaron McGinnis: The second thing is something I remember, and now I'm forgetting right now. Wait, you were just talking about
28:42 - 28:42
Steven Nichols: Babylon.
28:44 - 28:47
Aaron McGinnis: Oh man, I forgot it.
28:49 - 28:51
Peter Englert: We'll come back to that. We'll probably
28:51 - 28:52
Bob Reeves: even edit. I was on
28:52 - 28:53
Steven Nichols: a roll.
28:54 - 29:10
Peter Englert: So if I'm listening to you right, what you both are saying is The way that the Bible and Jesus talks about hell is it's not It's not somewhere where God condemns people. It's grace. Oh, did I get it?
29:10 - 29:12
Aaron McGinnis: You got it. All right, so,
29:12 - 29:52
Peter Englert: you know, it's the Holy Spirit bunch of Pentecostals So it's grace after grace and I'm sitting with someone you're from chile not chili, you know, I live in the suburbs of chile I'd rather watch the bills on sunday. I don't see the need for god. I don't see the need for God. I don't see the need for church. I get angry. I'm not going to do the whole Kirk Cameron. Like, have you ever lied before? So you're telling me that I'm not choosing that layer of hell. How would you respond to that person who's kind of
29:52 - 29:57
Peter Englert: I I get what you're saying? But I don't think I'm going that far. I
29:59 - 30:36
Bob Reeves: Don't think that most people would put themselves in a position where they would say they would choose hell. I think that what people do choose is not God. And so, and there's a view of God. There's a reason why. It's not just that church is boring, though historically church has proven it has that capacity from time to time. It is that there are aspects of God that limits my life and doesn't allow me the things that I want to pursue. And so I need to be absent of God. That my view of God is that He
30:36 - 30:48
Bob Reeves: limits life, He restricts life, He's overbearing, He's judgmental, He's capricious. And so when you have that view of God, you separate yourself from God. What is hell? Hell is where you get your wish of being away from God.
30:49 - 31:16
Aaron McGinnis: Yes. And this is 1 of the biggest things I was going to come up inherent in the question, why would a good God send people to hell is that word send. And we almost have this view of God as The puppet master who's who's choosing and picking and placing you in a place that you desperately don't want to be but what you just said was I'm choosing to live a life apart from you and I'm going to continue to do so and that's the path Well,
31:16 - 31:51
Bob Reeves: and there's a trajectory to it, right? Over time, where does that take you? And then, and the further we separate ourselves from the grace of God, like what, we all know this, any experience and growth that I've had in my life That has any spiritual benefit at all has been the result of the grace of God This is not me being smart or clever or academic or lucky or any of that like it's the grace of God, right? We understand that And so what would my life look like absent of any of God's grace? That thought
31:51 - 32:11
Bob Reeves: terrifies me. I don't want to find that out, but there are people who will choose that. They don't want God. They want a place apart from God. And at the end of the day, God does give us the power to choose. And at the end of the day, God does give us the power to choose. And at the end of the day, God respects the choice that we make. And He lets us make that choice.
32:11 - 32:46
Peter Englert: So let me have some fun with both of you right now. So there's a huge debate on how much free will do we get and does God choose? Because I think even so inside the church this has been a long-standing debate. There's Calvinism, God chooses people to be saved, and then there's Arminianism where we have free will, but that's even out in the world It's well Why would a loving God send people to hell and he would choose for me to come to and then there's free will with a rugged Americanism that says I am the
32:46 - 33:00
Peter Englert: captain of my ship. I am the 1. So, how do you reconcile that? Or how do you think the Bible brings those ideas together? Or you might say, no, it doesn't bring those ideas together. Go ahead, Stephen, you're ready.
33:00 - 33:30
Steven Nichols: Well, I think like all things, I hope this doesn't feel like a cop-out answer, but I think in all things that it is possible that both things can be true at the same time, that you can still heavily value the sovereignty of God and you still can heavily value the free will that God offers. The story that I think makes this most clear to me is right in the beginning of Scripture, the Garden of Eden, when God places Adam and Eve in this garden and he tells them, don't eat from this tree of good and evil.
33:30 - 34:01
Steven Nichols: And it's more than just a decision to whether to obey or disobey. It's a decision, am I going to trust the wisdom of God? Again, this is a little nerdy, but I think it's cool. The word for good and evil in Hebrew is tov for good and Ra for evil. And Ra doesn't just mean morally evil, it means bad. And what that can mean is that it is not just, because you can have things that are bad, but not necessarily morally evil. So for instance, if you have a bad tooth, there's actually scripture patches that talk
34:01 - 34:30
Steven Nichols: about this, If you have a bad tooth, you don't have a morally evil tooth. It's just a bad tooth. So what this tree represents is not just the ability to make a good or moral decision, it's wisdom. What is a good or bad decision to make? So when Adam and Eve take this fruit, God has given them this choice. Are you going to live in this creation that I've just given you? Are you going to rely on my wisdom? Or are you going to rely on your own wisdom? And in a sense, when they take this
34:30 - 35:05
Steven Nichols: fruit, they're not just disobeying God, though they are. They are essentially saying, God, you know this whole world that you have created and put me in? I think I know better how to run and operate this world than you do. And he gives them that choice. And God says, okay, and then the only thing, the only thing that can happen when you separate yourself from the 1 true source of good in the world is death, destruction, sin, and hell. And God gives that choice to them. And so there can be, which I don't know if it's
35:05 - 35:22
Steven Nichols: worth going into, there's a lot of debate of, okay, did God plan all of that then right from the get-go? And I don't know if it's worth that, but I do think holding both of those things in tension is helpful, that both things still can be true at the same time. I think scripture seems to be, as confusing as it is on that, it can be very clear in some ways.
35:22 - 35:24
Peter Englert: Bob, what would you add to that?
35:24 - 35:55
Bob Reeves: Yeah, so I think it's right. I think that both scripture teaches people are called to make choices and that God is sovereign, right? So whichever side of the equation, you have verses to back up your position. So the question I have is if both things are true, then shouldn't we find a model that allows us to accept both things as true instead of choosing sides? Because the tendency of humans is to choose a side. So my favorite story about this is when Jesus tells the disciples to throw the net after they've been fishing all night. They're
35:55 - 36:22
Bob Reeves: not crazy about the idea, but they do it. And they catch a bunch of fish. And so what happened there? The sovereignty of God put the fish within reach. The free will of man put the fish in the boat. And so God could have just had the fish jump in the boat, but He chose not to. He chooses to partner with us. If I were God, it's not how I would do it. I would just make sure it got done right. But he chooses to partner with us. So he is sovereign and he gives us choice.
36:23 - 36:29
Bob Reeves: And that feels like it can never work to us. But from heaven's perspective, it often does.
36:29 - 37:01
Aaron McGinnis: Yeah, and it's that partnership and even allowing us to be a part of his plan that even Illustrates his love for humanity to he could puppet master us if he really wanted to he could put the fish In the boat and get the job done but instead you know, we are sons and daughters. He treats us, he gives us value by giving us choice. And he chooses to love us no matter what. Are we going to do the same? Probably not. Great.
37:01 - 37:37
Bob Reeves: This is completely disconnected from anything we're talking about, but I love this aspect. That miracle takes place twice in Jesus' ministry. And 1 at the beginning of when he calls Peter, and the second after his resurrection. And the first time, Peter just falls down at Jesus' feet and says, you need to get away from me. People like you don't hang around people like me. I'm not good. And Jesus calls him into ministry. The second time it happens is after the resurrection, they catch the fish, and he knows it's Jesus on the shore, and he dives into
37:37 - 37:54
Bob Reeves: the water, and he swims with all the might and strength that he has towards Jesus. And there's something that has shifted in Peter's life over the course of his life from, when I see that God is good, I want to get away from him, to when I see that I am bad, I want to get close to him. It's an amazing transition in his life.
37:56 - 38:11
Aaron McGinnis: Yeah. And him walking with Jesus and understanding who he is and who God is kind of makes the switch flip maybe a little bit in his life and yeah having experienced the grace Yeah, that is a really cool story. I've never really put those 2 together.
38:11 - 38:42
Peter Englert: I want to as we close This might be like a rabbit hole, but I do want to close with Jesus talks way more about inviting us for life So I think that's kind of where we can close but we're having some honest conversations and a lot of our friends that are listening Maybe a friend shared it with them. They might not be a Christian. They're deconstructing or doubting. I'm I got 3 great friends that are listening. I'm just going to process something for a moment. So when it comes to churches and grace, you know, people still
38:42 - 39:21
Peter Englert: kind of consider me Assemblies of God, so we'll go with that. But, you know, maybe. Assemblies of God is Pentecostal. The history of that is in azusa street in 1906 people started speaking in tongues there was a sect of them that believed hey we're speaking in tongues so that we can go to other countries, not have to share the gospel, not learn. And like the whole movement of Christianity that I grew up with was we have to share the gospel. We And and you can kind of see there might not have been this huge Like hell
39:21 - 39:57
Peter Englert: campaign, but you can you can have grace if you're not a Christian to understand There's a group of people that had this radical experience that felt this anxiety almost taking more weight onto God. And that's why maybe for the last century, we've been trying to kind of retune as Christians. And I don't think it's, it's Baptist have gone through this Catholic. We'll throw some free Methodist Westlands in there, but because there's this pressure and this idea. And so I think even when I'm processing for those people that don't follow Jesus, this is, number 1, a hard
39:57 - 40:10
Peter Englert: thing to talk about. But number 2, you begin to look at the history. There was a hope and a joy to give the gospel, and there was by any means necessary. And I think that's where we are. So I don't know, did I process that right?
40:11 - 40:42
Bob Reeves: I think so. I think that we put a lot more pressure on ourselves than God intends. I think that when we live out our life in gracious ways, people actually see grace. When we live out, we try to share the grace of God with fear. I think that that doesn't work as well. And I actually think everybody's a natural evangelist. I think the only time we're not is when it comes to our faith. If I go to a really good restaurant, I'm going to tell you about it. If I try to diet and it did what
40:42 - 41:07
Bob Reeves: I wanted, I'm going to tell you about it. If I came across a music group and I think they're phenomenal. I'm going to tell you about it. We share stuff all the time. But when we're trying to share stuff, we're trying to introduce something to someone that we think they will enjoy or will benefit them in some way. I'm wondering how much better the church could do if we treated our faith like that instead of if you don't believe this you're going to go to hell.
41:07 - 41:20
Aaron McGinnis: It's almost like, I don't know, I listened to the Bee Gees and I just discovered them for the first time and I think they're amazing so I'm go to my friend and start talking about how terrible every other band is. You know?
41:20 - 41:21
Bob Reeves: It's a model with no support.
41:21 - 41:29
Aaron McGinnis: Stop listening to Abba, stop listening to Post Malone, and then you just leave out the most powerful part. That's so fascinating.
41:30 - 41:57
Peter Englert: Well, Aaron likes the Bee Gees. This is his last time. I'm just kidding. Before we get into it, I love where we're going, but Steve, you mentioned kind of early on, I think this is a good way to Frame it. How have you processed from? You know growing up in the church now you're a pastor You have a similar experience as I think all 4 of us probably have that but you shared that How have you kind of processed this question for yourself personally?
41:57 - 42:32
Steven Nichols: Oh man yeah a lot of conversations, And I don't even think that I'm done processing it, if that's helpful or not, but just a lot of conversations. When I first started coming to Calvary, it was just a very different experience than what I was used to. So I had a lot of questions. And Jonathan Sigmund, who is 1 of the pastors at our church, he was 1 of my mentors back then, and even still is a lot of ways, but man, I, that poor guy, I just peppered him with questions over and over and over and
42:32 - 43:06
Steven Nichols: over again. And I have poor Pastor Bob, too. I've asked more direct and probably rude questions to Pastor Bob about why he believes the things that he does, And they both have been gracious enough to be able to answer kindly and with grace and allow me, Pastor Bob talks about this a lot, allows me the gift of time to be able to process through it. And I think this is, there's this weird thing with the hell conversation that 1 of, I struggle to say this a good way, but there is a benefit to it that the
43:06 - 43:33
Steven Nichols: fear of hell puts inside of us a sense of urgency. And I think there's something good to that sometimes, that as followers of Jesus, there should be this healthy amount of urgency, like, we got a job to do, like, we can't just be relaxing here on this earth, like, there are people living apart from the grace of God, we got a job to do, let's go get it done. That can very quickly go to the other side. But the problem is it can go so unhealthy that we force people to say, you need to make a
43:33 - 44:04
Steven Nichols: decision right now. You need to figure this out right now, because tomorrow you could get hit by a bus and then it's all done. And again, pastor has been really helpful with this, just thinking of you actually have the gift of time. Allow people the time to work through this, to question, to ask, to have conversations, to dialogue, to doubt it. And I think when we, whether it's Hal or anything else, when we say you have to figure this out right now, man, it's just gonna be a really bad time for everybody. So that was a
44:04 - 44:18
Steven Nichols: huge gift for me to have time. And it's been years of me processing through this to unlearn the things I feel like I've needed to unlearn and learn the things I think I've needed to learn. And that has been Probably the most impactful thing for me on all of this
44:18 - 44:27
Peter Englert: last question for both of you before we close You've kind of hinted at this What's the invitation you want to give listeners about this question?
44:32 - 45:09
Bob Reeves: Ask real questions and hard questions But don't just answer the questions with your own fears or your own opinions. Do a little bit of research and find out what Scripture actually has to say, not just what someone said Scripture says. And I think that when we do that, we are exposed to far more than 9 places in the New Testament where Jesus talked about this topic. We wind up getting exposed to other things he talked about too. And if all we focus on is 1 thing, we're going to have an unbalanced view of everything. So we
45:09 - 45:22
Bob Reeves: really need to, like Stephen was saying, take the time, ask real questions, ask hard questions, but don't be afraid to go look at scripture. Our opinions are not actually better.
45:24 - 45:48
Steven Nichols: I'd also say, especially if you are somebody who feels like you're in that deconstruction, whatever that word means these days, but in that deconstruction path of abandoning the faith because of this topic. My encouragement for this and for many things is to view this conversation through the lens of Jesus. And we really do, again, this is, I feel like I'm quoting you all the time, but we believe that—
45:48 - 45:51
Bob Reeves: This is odd because I don't think anybody listens to me.
45:52 - 46:02
Steven Nichols: We believe that Jesus was God incarnate, not God incognito. That's a pastor, Bob, write that 1 down. Tweet that. Exit. Exit. I don't know
46:02 - 46:03
Peter Englert: if that sound
46:03 - 46:03
Bob Reeves: is good now.
46:04 - 46:36
Steven Nichols: But sometimes we have this view that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are so completely different, and 1 of the purposes of Jesus was to reveal the nature of God to us, So that when we have a question like this where we're like, how on earth could this God do something like this? A God of love allow or send people to a place like that? My encouragement, my invitation would be to view this question through the lens of Jesus. And Jesus, we know from Jesus that he loves, that he
46:36 - 47:05
Steven Nichols: wishes, that none, that none would be at the receiving end of the judgment of God, that all would be in the presence of God, that they would become children of God. And that is the desire. And when I know that, when I can see this through the lens of Jesus, though I still may not understand it, I can at least, for lack of a better term, give God the benefit of the doubt. To say, I don't get this yet, I don't know it, I'm gonna keep asking questions, I'm gonna keep approaching it, but I trust, I
47:05 - 47:39
Steven Nichols: trust that God has the ability to do this well and to do this right, because I know who Jesus is. And man, sometimes we throw out the baby with the bathwater And we think that because I don't get something like this, I'm just going to abandon faith altogether. And having doubts and having questions is not the opposite of having faith. And fear is the opposite of faith actually. So It is okay to have these questions. It doesn't mean you don't have faith. So ask those questions, doubt these questions, get in communities where you can dialogue and
47:39 - 47:46
Steven Nichols: ask some real, real honest things. And that would be my invitation to those who are really struggling with this.
47:46 - 48:13
Peter Englert: Thank you so much. Well, the way we close every show is our every episode I don't know if I like calling a show but anyways, we do final remarks. So Erin and I are gonna go first and then as usual you 2 can clean up any messes we left. So you know if there's anything heretical, 16 fundamental truths. Anyways, position takers. Anyways, Aaron why don't you kick us off?
48:13 - 48:50
Aaron McGinnis: Yeah I think 1 of the things that I'm just struck by is we're talking about hell but the word grace was used almost as much. And clearly there's this huge relationship between grace and hell and God. But I keep thinking, the thing that gets me excited is almost, I think that oftentimes we avoid this question. We avoid the idea of judgment, justice, all this stuff. But where I get excited is that what that says to me is that there's this whole area of God's character that we haven't looked into. And this beautiful part of him that
48:50 - 49:25
Aaron McGinnis: we don't understand yet, and maybe instead of being afraid of diving into that world of justice, that world of protection, Instead of being afraid of that, maybe we can view it as an opportunity to understand God better, to read those Old Testament stories, to read those New Testament passages that make us uncomfortable, and instead of skipping past them or saying, oh, that's the God of the Old Testament, this is the God of the New Testament, diving in and saying, what can I learn about this God who is so loving, so just that I'm missing right now?
49:25 - 49:45
Aaron McGinnis: And how can that inform my view of Him better and lead to a deeper relationship with him and a deeper outpouring of love to others and understanding. So I see a real opportunity in this area where we are usually uncomfortable talking about it, to, to see more God in a more beautiful light.
49:46 - 50:23
Peter Englert: I appreciate that. I, I'm leaving this conversation on 2 levels. So for those that are like deconstructing or kind of outside the church, I would be curious about the subjectivity in the sense of We want justice for the Hitlers and the wrongs, but we struggle with a loving God sending people to hell. And I think we've unpacked a lot of maybe what the Bible is trying to get after. So I would just encourage our listeners, if this is a big question, become a little bit more curious because Last I checked Subjectivity is not clarity. And so
50:23 - 51:04
Peter Englert: if we all have this different subjectivity does that really create? The lasting piece that we're looking for and then maybe to the followers of Jesus that you're talking with friends I just think you 2 modeled beautifully what it looks like to sit with an issue for a long time. When you get on the back porch, when you get around the campfire, it's not like you're gonna have 1 conversation that is gonna change someone's theology or change their view. They might never change, but actually the antithesis of hell is the gospel of making room for people and
51:04 - 51:18
Peter Englert: realizing that Jesus is present. So I hope that all of you listeners, no matter where your faith background is, that you left feeling as if you were on our back porch sensing Jesus. So Whatever you both want to clean up, whoever wants to go first, I'll
51:18 - 51:56
Bob Reeves: let you go. I think that if we start looking at God, we'll see a lot more than just judgment and wrath. And what we see is the price he was willing to pay so that we would never have to know judgment and wrath. Like, it's not just him saying, you better choose. It's him paying every price beyond our imagination so that we don't have to ever be on the receiving end of that kind of judgment. And then I know people struggle with this, and do I have to believe in hell to get into heaven? I think
51:56 - 52:28
Bob Reeves: it's Tim Keller that says, you don't have to believe everything in the Bible to be saved. But a person who comes to know Christ will eventually come to believe everything that's in the Bible. I think that sometimes we want to get everybody to check a bunch of boxes, doctrinally or theologically, before we grant them admission into heaven. And the path to heaven is through Jesus and if we focus on him it's amazing how much that resolves so that's where I would encourage people to focus. That's great.
52:30 - 53:09
Steven Nichols: Just the passage that comes to mind is, I don't even know who he's talking to, but maybe you guys can help me in this, but God's telling somebody that you have 2 options in front of you. There's the option towards destruction and there's the option towards life. Choose life. Choose life. And that is the, I think the overwhelming invitation, I think, of just the entire story of the Bible. God is, He's not just pleading, He's not just begging, He's made every available opportunity. He has literally moved heaven to earth so that you can have abundant life.
53:09 - 53:40
Steven Nichols: It is the desire, the heartbeat of the Father, that you would have life and have it to the fullest. And he's asking you, choose life, choose it. And to go back to your point, Aaron, it's not so much is God sending people to hell, he's providing the option, choose abundant life, or you can walk down this road, you can do it, and I will allow you to do it if that is what you want, I will release my hand, but his desire for each and every 1 of us is to choose life. And I don't think
53:40 - 54:11
Steven Nichols: we believe that sometimes. I don't believe that that has sunk down into the root of our being, that God so desperately calls us to Himself that He begs us to come towards Himself. And if you are there and you are struggling with this idea, I hope that you can come to know that God is on the other side just pleading, singing to you to come towards him because he wants nothing more to be with you and for you to be with him and that's brought a lot of encouragement to me and I hope it's encouraging for
54:11 - 54:13
Steven Nichols: others who are struggling with this.
54:14 - 54:32
Peter Englert: Well I think we're gonna have you both back. This has been really great and no matter what you think about the Bee Gees will have you back the co-hosts So, thanks for making the drive from the West Side What do you tell everybody about the podcast that you host and just a little bit about that.
54:32 - 55:09
Steven Nichols: Yeah, so thank you. Yeah, so we also do a podcast, it's just called the Calvary Assembly podcast. And we talk about, it's usually corresponding to much of what we're talking about on Sunday mornings, which is awesome, but it is very difficult conversations. For instance, last time we had interviewed a couple on grief and they lost a son years ago and they're an older couple now and they just went through their story of how they processed their grief and kept their faith and clung to Jesus and holy cow, like it was awe-inspiring. So that was 1 of
55:09 - 55:26
Steven Nichols: my favorite ones we've done. But just questions like that, and we've talked about does prayer change God's mind and stuff like that. So similar idea and conversations and stuff like that. It's me, Pastor Bob and Jonathan Sigmon, who's a pastor at our church as well. And we have a lot of fun thinking we're real smart talking about these things.
55:28 - 55:33
Peter Englert: Oh, just wait till you get the emails. Not that anybody's ever gotten emails from this shit.
55:33 - 55:36
Steven Nichols: I Believe right off the back to leave it's a great tactic
55:39 - 55:42
Peter Englert: I'm gonna get this wrong. It's Calvary assembly rock org, right?
55:43 - 55:48
Bob Reeves: No, our Calvary So our letter are for Rochester our Calvary org. Yeah, I
55:48 - 56:02
Peter Englert: did I should have done that. So Hopefully anyways Thank you so much for joining us on the why good why podcast you can find us at why good why podcast comm click the subscribe button