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Tyson Popplestone is a Comedian from Melbourne Australia. Join him for a brand new interview each week.
Tyson (00:00.278)
Yeah, awesome. There we go, I've hit record there. It's funny, man. One of the things that my wife often tells me off about in our marriage, which has been about 13 years long, so there's plenty of things she could tell you about, is she thinks she's almost like a gateway drug to so many new ideas and so many concepts. She'll tell me something a month or two in advance, and I'll go out and listen to a podcast or hear a story, and I'll come back and share the same information with her.
huge sense of passion and excitement. And she'll go, look, I was trying to tell you about this. I was trying to highlight to you. I was trying to just, you know, reveal any little scales from your eyes about what might've been blocking it. She gets so frustrated because she's like, the amount of times you're convinced by someone else other than me, despite the fact I told you, absolutely does my head in. And I thought, what a nice launch pad, because the truth is, if she was in the room, which I purposely made sure she wasn't.
Uh, she would confirm that I'm a very hard man to persuade with logic, with stats, with numbers. And it turns out like from, from what I've heard from you is, uh, she's in fairly common territory when it comes to, you know, trying to persuade or highlight ideas or concepts to other people.
Michael McQueen (01:09.708)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (01:15.75)
And there's a couple of factors, of course, that go into that. My wife would tell you a very similar story, in fact. And I think part of it is because people can be too close, for instance, for us to be paying attention to. There's that old saying that a prophet in their own town isn't listened to. You need someone from outside, a couple of degrees of separation away to have cut through. And I must say, from my work, which is mostly on the conference circuit with corporates, I find, and it's almost comical how often I'll go in.
to a conference, to an organization, deliver a 45, 55 minute keynote. And I've said the same stuff the executive has said for the last 18 months, but someone from outside comes in and says that, I was like, oh my gosh, yes, that is so true. We should do that. We should pay attention to that data or that trend. And the CEO is like, are you serious? I've been saying this for ages, but it's like someone outside the echo chamber has a degree of gravitas that sometimes when we are too close, isn't there. And so I think that's.
That's a perennial challenge for just for human beings. But yeah, the whole notion of the things that are barriers to getting through to people and the things that make us so entrenched now thinking, while it's always been a part of human nature, I think we are seeing elements of that being a lot more acute today. I mean, I certainly find that sense that people are so much more bristly, so much more ready for an argument, for a debate, but it's not even a debate, it's just a slaggy match. And so we so...
we can be so defensive of our ideas and our perspectives. And there's lots of reasons for that. So overcoming that is honestly, it's a huge issue. And it's one that I've spent a lot of time, particularly in the lead up to this last book, just trying to figure out what goes into that and how do you sort of get around it.
Tyson (02:53.198)
Yeah, I was saying to you before I hit record that one thing that I noticed a lot in conversation, which I actually really like about the way that you speak is the fact that you're very present in the conversation, it seems, even in relatively superficial environments, in the sense that it's a production, it's being filmed, it's being broadcast, it's very easy to pretend to play a certain role in those environments, but you seem to have some level of consistency. And I mean, whether it's, you know,
Michael McQueen (03:07.435)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (03:13.175)
Mm.
Tyson (03:18.658)
persuading someone of an idea or just a general sense of being in the conversation. I find that lacks a lot. And I'll catch myself on a regular basis, being in a conversation with someone and being like, Oh, okay. I know I'm not a hundred percent. Now I'm thinking about work. I'm thinking about family. I'm thinking about whatever else. And I mean, is that something you pick up as well? Because there's so many, one thing I've learned a lot since just paying attention to what you have to say is there seems to be so many different factors. Which are having an impact on not only our ability to persuade, but our ability
Michael McQueen (03:30.867)
Yeah. Yep.
Tyson (03:48.546)
have a conversation. What is going on in your opinion? Because I've heard you talk a lot as well about, yeah, we're using 19th and 20th century tactics in a modern world and, you know, they're not only outdated, but ineffective.
Michael McQueen (03:52.554)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (03:56.632)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (04:01.406)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think certainly if you look at the first piece there, that idea about being fully engaged and how important that is for actually getting cut through, this is where I think politicians struggle so much. And they have struggled for the last few years. You've got politicians who are so terrified of stepping a foot wrong and saying something that might get them in trouble that essentially they become walking press releases. And they're two-dimensional. There's nothing interesting or nothing we can latch onto that's human about them. And so I think
be influential or get cut through, how do we dial up that humanness? And it was funny, I was doing a segment on the morning show last week, all about AI and deep fakes. And what does it mean for the media? Because, so I was doing the, the hosts were saying like, apparently in Spain, there's a new AI avatar that's just been released that is doing online TV hosting for their version of Survivor. And so the host was saying, are we out of a job? And so my encouragement to them is,
And I do stuff on the morning show every few weeks. So there's a lot of rapport there. Like once you get to that point of relationship, it is a bit easier to have that sort of open conversation, even though it's live on air in a studio, in a very contrived environment. And I said, well, the reality is you're unlikely to be threatened anytime soon, because what do people love about a good TV host is that they're real. Like so Larry Emder, for instance, who hosts the morning show, and I've got to tell you, the producers, I can half the time, if not more, have no idea what he's going to say.
And like the interviews go off the rails so quickly, but I said, that's when people at home lean in. That's what's interesting. That's what's, that's what's entertaining. And this deep fake AI generated avatar that's hosting survivor in Spain. She's very beautiful and polished and perfect, but also a little bit boring because it's that unpredictability of humans that really
that really works. And so certainly what I find when I'm doing media is I try and remember that even though everyone's playing a role here, the interview is playing a role, they've got some questions. I'm going to play a role and hopefully give some answers that are, you know, coherent and interesting and compelling and all the stuff. At the end of the day, we're actually all just people. And when we click, you know, disconnect from this, you go back to, you know, a sick baby in the background there who could cry at any moment. I go back to
Michael McQueen (06:12.022)
You know, like just the life admin, I've got my afternoon ahead of me. I've got to go buy like a little, um, Minecraft watch for my boy this afternoon. I'm trying to figure out where do I go to? I got a big W or target. Like it's who's got the best price. Like, and I think when we start connecting on those things, the things that are real, just like the stuff that outside our echo chambers, where we have these environments and sometimes it's just the office at work where we get so used to having, you know, our work selves that are very two dimensional and you see bosses off from where this is the case that their staff don't really know them.
And when people don't know you have that sense of you being a real human, that really erodes your capacity to be persuasive, to be influential, to have an impact. And so I think that's the encouragement I'd give to anyone listening. And if you want to really try and have more impact in daily life, dial up the human stuff. And so if you look, you know, historically, Aristotle talked about the three elements of persuading another human being, what he called the three fundamentals of rhetoric. So that's Logos.
ethos and pathos. So Logos is essentially appealing to people's rational faculties giving logical, reasoned information. Pathos, of course, is about appealing to the heart. And yet it's the ethos piece that I think we overlook the most. And what is ethos? Ethos is argument by credibility being seen as trustworthy and real. And so I would say for a lot of people, if you don't want to if you want to become more persuasive, more impactful, that's where you got to focus, first of all.
Tyson (07:32.042)
Yeah, you can tell when you're speaking to someone, they're trying to sales picture. When they're trying to make a sale, you go, it's so uncomfortable. Now, sometimes you can't even pinpoint exactly what's going on, but you just know for a fact that it's not a genuine conversation, so it makes it really hard to trust. It's interesting that the idea, cause I find a lot of the time, I think the people in my own life who have the most impact are those who are in so many regards, the most present for lack of a better term. And I think when I say that what I'm
Michael McQueen (07:35.839)
Yeah, absolutely.
Michael McQueen (07:42.317)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (07:46.787)
Yeah.
Tyson (07:59.778)
trying to say it's just people that you go and speak to and they're in the conversation, they're curious, they want to know. And I mean, you go into a corporate setting and a lot of times, as you say, it's, it's very easy. Like we've all heard that talk around like your office voice. You speak in a particular way when you're around certain people trying to portray, portray some certain image that it's, yeah, it's very see-through and very yuck and we might not have the words to necessarily describe it, but I reckon.
Michael McQueen (08:04.012)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (08:16.505)
Yep.
Michael McQueen (08:22.604)
Yeah.
Tyson (08:26.846)
nine out of 10 people seem to have the ability to point it out when they see it. But I like what you said, it was interesting about the survivor host, because that's one thing in my world that's been a conversation fairly recently in regards to this AI is, hey, what does this mean in terms of like joke production for comedians around the world? And I mean, chat GPT seems to have a pretty good reputation for writing some OK premises. But you're right. Like the sometimes it's not just the perfect joke, but it's the it's the tone, it's delivery. It's the.
Michael McQueen (08:42.967)
Yeah.
Tyson (08:56.514)
I mean, you can have two people say the same joke in very different ways and get very different responses. And it seems to be the theme. I mean, I think it's, I always, I find myself recently comparing it to like an audio book in comparison to a hard copy. Like they're both great, but there's something nice about just getting your hands on a hard copy book and go, oh, it just feels real. It feels genuine. It feels a little more human. And so, I mean, there's a, there's a lot in there to unpack, but in terms of what
Michael McQueen (09:18.082)
Yeah. Yep.
Tyson (09:26.594)
um like factors in people's inability to be in a conversation because i think it's something that happens accidentally some people would say i really want to be there but mentally i've got 15 things going on i just i just can't like is that something you speak to a bit because it's a really frustrating experience to be on either side of i feel
Michael McQueen (09:38.87)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (09:45.23)
Absolutely. And it's exhausting. Like it's, it's just, it's a tiring thing when you're in those sort of conversations. And what's interesting, if you look at the sort of the neuroscience behind that, what actually happens in our brains and our bodies when we're engaged with someone who's being real and who is present. Um, the thing that, I want, there's been a lot of great research done around this, but probably the key research was a guy named Dr. Paul Zach. So Paul Zach, so Z A K based over in the U S and he's done some fantastic research over the decades, really.
looking at the role of oxytocin. So oxytocin is the social bonding hormone that humans have, and it's incredibly powerful. So it's the, in fact, it's a hormone released when mothers and babies breastfeed, like it's that moment, that connection that is formed. So it's incredibly potent, gives us that sense of warmth, longing, trust. And what's interesting is when you're, when you're measuring it in people, what causes oxytocin to be released? Like, you know, that moment where you walk away from a conversation, you're like, I just...
I just feel like I really clicked with that person. Like I really gelled with them. We were in sync almost. And then, you know, I've looked at other times you're in a conversation, you leave the conversation, you're like, you know, they're saying all the right things but we didn't seem to click. What's actually going on is you are having a release of oxytocin or you're not. And this happens so unconsciously that even though many of us have maybe not heard the term oxytocin, everyone knows what it feels like.
And so the question then is when there's not the oxytocin, when you've sort of feel that as a bit of a block, when you're not getting through to someone, what are the things that you can do to try and get around that and create that sense of ease and familiarity, sometimes just calling it out and saying, hey, look, you seem really distracted at the moment. Is everything okay?
Um, or if you're feeling like you're not the one in sync, just say, Hey, like, I'm really sorry, I just, I feel a bit scattered at the moment and this is what's going on. It's amazing. Even just calling out the awkward and just acknowledging that there's a lot happening for you right now brings those barriers down, but there are also just simple things you can do to get in sync with people. If you feel like you're speaking with someone or trying to persuade someone and there is that bit of a block there, one of the best things that Paul's act suggests and it's so simple and yet very often we've never thought to do it. And that is go for a walk.
Michael McQueen (11:49.39)
Because what the research shows us is that when you're doing something in sync with somebody else, and in fact this happens with all sorts of things we do in groups. So for instance, clapping in a group, singing in a group, you know, chanting in a group, even dancing or moving, marching. If you look at the brain scans of people when they're doing those group activities, it's amazing how we have to actually, there's a mind meld that is formed when you're doing something in sync with others. And that's why I reckon in...
various faith communities singing and clapping has been a part of what we've done for millennia because it creates a sense of togetherness. And so music is very powerful for, for triggering this as well. Now, if you're speaking with someone wanting to build rapport and persuade them, it's tricky to go, Hey, can we just clap together? Or like, let's just do a dance or like it's, it's beat some drums at the same time. What you can do is go for a walk. Why? Cause when you're walking with someone side by side, eventually, inevitably, you start getting in sync with them. You start to match their cadence and their step.
Tyson (12:30.634)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Michael McQueen (12:43.83)
When that happens, there's literally that mind meld that forms. So if any listeners have got one of those conversations coming up, that can be high stakes, awkward, there might be some resistance, some stubbornness, a barrier from the other person. Don't sit opposite the other person at a cafe, a coffee table, across a board table or a dinner table, get out and go for a walk. And when you're walking side by side in sync with someone, often that oxytocin release occurs and that's when often things become more free flowing. So hopefully that's helpful to give some ideas as to why.
those awkward moments, those jarring moments happen, but also how do you get around them?
Tyson (13:16.098)
Yeah, I noticed that I'm a distance runner. I, uh, I love getting out there and going for a run on a regular basis. I go out and just have a run sometimes 90 minutes, sometimes longer. And a lot of the best conversations, so long as you know, it's, it's not a complete stranger or just way off in different worlds in terms of what we're interested in. But so many of my best conversations, I feel happen on those particular runs. Ironically, actually I go to a local church down here as well called the wave.
in Ocean Grove and so on a personal level. I know what you mean, like in terms of the singing element of like worship, some days they just hit it. I don't know what it is, but some days it could be a combination of like a cool worship band that everyone's just into. I mean, very similar to a concert. But it's not something you think of, is it? Because I think when it comes to the idea of persuasion, you sit down and you think, okay, I've got to be convincing. I've got to be clear. I've got to be compelling.
Michael McQueen (14:01.837)
Yeah.
Tyson (14:12.374)
And as I said, my wife is all of those things when she speaks to me about the things that I catch up a month later on, but for whatever reason, it goes in one ear and out the other until I hear Joe Rogan say it. Ha ha ha.
Michael McQueen (14:22.462)
Yeah, it's amazing, hey, and that's so often the case. And so I've got to be mindful of, are we, and this is, you've got to own this yourself. Are you embracing enough curiosity in daily life? Or do you approach life, experiences, relationships, particularly those close to you, with a sense of judgment, like you've already figured things out? I can, this is the tension of certainty versus curiosity.
And there's something about having a posture of curiosity that means you're far more likely to ask questions than feel compelled to come up with answers. Far more likely to investigate rather than try and defend. And I think for all of us, we'll have relationships around us where, now we feel for whatever reason, we've got to be defensive or guard or have all the right answers. And I mean, as parents, this is so important. Like, and I try and model this with our little one is eight. Now, if I don't know the answer to a question, I'll go, that's a great question. I really don't know.
And I'll say, let's figure it out together. Let's do some research. Let's jump online because there's something very powerful about modeling to him that it's okay not to know. And that actually, and this is what's often called a growth mindset, this idea of sort of having a fixed mindset. You've got to know everything and be across everything and there's no capacity to develop or grow beyond where you're at, which then of course, leads us to be defensive, a growth mindset says we're all on the journey of figuring stuff out.
And so let's do it together. And there's something about that creates a far more free flowing conversation. And like, I noticed this with my wife constantly where she'll go to say something in, and I almost feel like, cause we, we'd often had the adversarial back and forth, back and forth, discussing, just chatting, debating. Sometimes that's not necessary. All I need to go is that's a really good point. I've never thought about that before and let it sit and just listen, just be open. And I think there's, there's something about the humility of that, which doesn't just lead to better relationships, because I mean, that's.
Tyson (15:56.966)
Hehe hehehe
Michael McQueen (16:05.186)
That's so often, I think, and it's not always the case that it's gender, but I think blokes are not so great at that. Just stopping and really listening. Um, but I think it creates a great relationship, but also means you're far more open and able to learn. And, you know, if you're not learning, if you're not growing, where are you going? You're, you're going backwards in terms of you, you're not as sharp as you were yesterday or last week or last month. We've got to always stay in that posture of openness and curiosity.
Tyson (16:12.526)
Yeah.
Tyson (16:27.542)
It's so true. Yeah, actually that's my Instagram about me section of Bob Dylan quote that I love. It says, he not busy being born. He's busy dying. And it's so, it's so true. Just that idea of, of curiosity, but there's something about growing up and just, I don't know if it's just getting into a routine or you could talk more to this, but it is easy. I've noticed I'm 37 now and I've noticed a couple of areas in my own life where a little cynicism can sneak in like a little bit of I've been here before.
Michael McQueen (16:34.911)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (16:52.099)
Yeah.
Tyson (16:54.006)
I know the outcome of this. I know this hasn't worked before. You can see certain patterns with areas that you'd once risk, which should have, you know, fall up short and give you some sense that that's just the pattern that repeats forever. So to a degree, I can understand how, you know, cynicism and like a real close nature can sneak in, but this idea of cultivating curiosity is a really interesting point, is that like, is that something in your opinion that can really be developed? I mean, I feel as though there's certain times in my life where I have a real focus on.
Michael McQueen (17:10.157)
Hmm.
Tyson (17:23.834)
being curious about certain things. It might just come and go. But I feel as though you get a little bit of a taste for how to cultivate it, but not necessarily have any strong idea about how to maintain that consistently.
Michael McQueen (17:36.522)
Yeah, I think one of the things I'm always aware of is my physicality. So when I'm in a conversation and I feel unwilling or unable to genuinely be curious, um, that's a red flag for me. Like when I, instead of notice this, like almost the hair on the back of your neck goes up, you can feel flushed around your face or your neck. Cause you're, you're in battle mode. You want to defend an idea.
as opposed to being open to perhaps as, you know, there's a perspective you hadn't considered before. And I think there are some temperament, some personality styles that are more probably prone to doing that. And there are lots of different temperament or personality models that could, you could slice and dice and say, some people are more likely to be defensive or combative, but I actually think it's, it's part of the human condition, you know, where we notice within yourself, like I had a conversation with some friends on the weekend.
And they were talking about some things happening from an education perspective and particularly the rise of, you know, parents wanting to protect their kids and all the stuff that's happening in classrooms, the pressure on teachers to sort of always be on the lookout for mental health and anxiety. And part of me wanted to just go like, I feel like we need to just dial it back and realize that kids and life is messy and that not everything has to have a psychological label attached to it. And, and they were pushing back on that night and I started to get defensive. And I noticed within myself like that, that sense of, I wanted to
Tyson (18:46.063)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (18:51.726)
I wanted to argue, I wanted to fight, I wanted to be in a battle. But I'm like, wait a minute. Have I stopped long enough to listen? Like I have, I have actually stopped long enough to understand someone else's perspective. That doesn't mean I'm going to change my perspective entirely and agree with them, but I'd love to think that I'm always in a posture where I'm open enough to just think maybe there are facets of this that I haven't considered. And even if in the conversation, my view hasn't changed, hopefully it's richer. It's more rounded. It's got less of those hard edges. Cause I think there's nothing less.
admirable, nothing less mature than someone who is just dogmatic and obstinate and doesn't listen. And we all know people like that. And I think it is, it is a challenge as you get older, you can feel like, well, I figured out so many things in life. I don't have to, I don't have to think about things again, cause I've already sorted that out, that's like, that's I know what my view is on X, Y or Z. But you also see they're the people that as time goes on, they're walled off and becomes very small. They become quite bitter. It's all about trying to fight back and push against.
And there's something, there's nothing about that is life-giving. And like there's something worse in the contrast. And I know people like this who just that they for the, if right throughout their life, they stay open and interested. They're always asking questions. Not only are they often more relevant, more able to have influence, but they tend to often be much happier, more contented and peaceful people as well. Cause they don't live in that battle mode. So part of this is, is us realizing we can own our responses in some of these things. Um, Andy Stanley has got this beautiful quote that
Now actions speak louder than words, but reactions speak louder than both. And so look at, look for your reactions. And if you have those strong reactions, what's that about? And just spend some time going deep and thinking, you know, is there, is there something here I need to look at? Is there typically defensiveness that sort of, you know, trying to want it to fight is, is fear sometimes it's discussed. You have discussed for another person or another point of view and discussed, you know, just step back from that and go, well, what is it about that other idea or the other person that I just, I can't even abide by, I can't even think about.
without getting defensive or judgy. Because typically when that happens, it's because you've got a very two-dimensional view. Maybe you don't even really know someone who is the very thing that you feel disgusted by. Like, have you heard their story? Do you know them as a living, breathing human being, or is it an idea, just a philosophy, a principle? And so I think when we look at ourselves, we can control this, but then the question becomes, what about when you're dealing with others who are like that? Who can be obstinate, strong-willed,
Tyson (20:50.281)
Yeah.
Tyson (20:58.587)
Hehehehe.
Michael McQueen (21:15.194)
mean-spirited sometimes and how do you try and get through to them and that's that can be tricky because you can't control what they do all you can create is the environment where they feel they've got permission to let their guard down a bit and not be defensive.
Tyson (21:27.446)
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting hearing you speak about dogma. I mean, I mentioned before that I go to church and I think it's a classic example that so many people realize is there's nothing less attractive than a religious person who's got all the answers on paper, apparently. But when it comes to practicing what they preach seem to struggle. And I know we all in some capacity or at some stage are going to be that person. But that real fundamentalist has an ability of turning so many people off.
Michael McQueen (21:46.285)
Yeah.
Tyson (21:55.242)
not with what they're saying, but almost in the way that it said. Actually, Andy Stanley, who you mentioned, I'm actually a big fan of his. He wrote a, I'm not sure, maybe you know it, a book called Communicating for a Change, which was a book that I was so fascinated by. I used to work as a youth pastor. And one of the areas that I was really interested in was just developing a strong keynote or a strong message and trying to convey an idea.
Michael McQueen (21:55.426)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (22:02.124)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (22:07.69)
I can edit them. Yeah.
Tyson (22:19.866)
to an audience. And one thing that, I mean, I'm sure you've seen this more than anyone in the world, but one thing that you'll notice with someone who might be relatively new to the world of keynote speak is they'll get up there and they'll speak and it'll be a little all over the place. You're not a hundred percent sure what they're putting down or where it's going. And so this book that I'm referring to, it's a little bit of a roadmap that he uses when he's preparing a sermon. But actually I heard you mention Annie Stanley in one of the interviews that you did recently. And I wondered how much...
Michael McQueen (22:36.394)
Yeah. Yep.
Michael McQueen (22:44.558)
Yeah, great.
Tyson (22:49.774)
heat impacted the own style of presentations that you do.
Michael McQueen (22:51.124)
Oh, hugely.
Actually, probably not presenting as much. I've never, I listen more to his stuff than watch his stuff. So actually, I don't know what he's like as a communicator, but I love, so his leadership podcast is brilliant, but I really love, so the book he wrote a few years ago called, Not In It To Win It. And it is absolutely superb because it looks at, now particularly in the US right now, where there are so many people, there's such a fractious approach to dealing with political issues. And then you weave faith into that and you've got
often two sides left versus right, liberal versus conservative. And in many cases, you've got people who share exactly the same faith, who hate each other. And the reality is the fundamental truth of faith for most faiths, not all, but most faiths is to love those who you want to influence. I mean, if you don't love the people you're trying to persuade,
Tyson (23:32.419)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (23:44.346)
What hope have you got to actually try and win them over to your view? And yet we have this idea of trying to go into battle constantly. And so as the title suggests, how about we don't go into these conversations with the goal to win, to dominate, to beat the other person into ideological submission. Because, you know, the reality is that very rarely works because all you may, you may well win, win the argument, but if you've lost the relationship, what's the purpose? What's the point?
And sometimes you walk away from a conversation having like, you've scored all the points, you made the point, you argued better than they did. And they basically could picture, they went, you know what? Okay, you're right, I get it, whatever. You know, the conversation's over. And if winning the point comes to the cost of the relationship, I feel like no one's actually really won there. And so I think that's a key point for all of us as we consider trying to persuade other people is what matters most is valuing and honoring the other person.
Tyson (24:09.07)
Yeah.
Tyson (24:20.442)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (24:35.29)
and realizing that they are a unique human being and they are the not the sum total of their opinions. And I think that's a reality is none of us is a sum total of our opinions. Apart from what you think and whatever your views are, you're a uniquely valuable human being. And so I'm gonna value you as that. And then let's have a discussion as opposed to, and you see this and it's funny, we use the term demonizing, demonizing the others and particularly in the political polarized world while we demonize the opposition. I'm like, if you look just...
that word back from a demonization, you're literally reducing another party, someone you disagree with to being the same level as a demon. Now, from a theological perspective, demons are irredeemable. And so like, just think about what we say when we say someone we demonizing the other part or the other party or the other side of the political spectrum. We don't even see a path forward for them to be redeemed or to meet in the middle and find any common value. And of course, nothing good comes from that when people feel like they've been dismissed.
or relegated to the category of demon, of course not going to be willing to discuss and think out loud and even willing to consider that maybe what you've suggested, some of what you've said is a good point they might want to take on board. And so I think the challenge is often we approach conversations, be it with our teenage kids or our spouses or people at work or in the political or social arena, often going with the goal to win, to dominate the other person.
to come out on top in the argument. And sometimes that very posture is the thing that stops us having an influence and actually being able to persuade the other person.
Tyson (26:08.57)
For sure, it's such a skill. It's so funny. I'm just imagining myself in so many situations, but the idea of trying to, I don't know, trying to be present in a conversation, like you say, when you're getting fired up about something that another person is saying, it's such a difficult thing because so many wheels start spinning. And I can be in a conversation or a debate where I go, okay, this person's making a good point. And like,
Michael McQueen (26:25.194)
Mm.
Tyson (26:34.606)
based on the fact that you've gone into it with a pre-established idea of what it is that you believe and what you're trying to get across. You feel that emotion start heating up and your heart start pumping, your head starts spinning. And then the idea of saying anything clear is sort of out of the question, which is I guess where some of the fire starts to kick in. I watched from time to time, I don't know why I do it to myself. I'll go and watch like highlights of the view, that American talk show with like that.
Michael McQueen (26:44.703)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (26:50.072)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (27:00.906)
Oh yes, gosh is that still on? I haven't seen that for years.
Tyson (27:03.33)
Yeah, trust me. I don't know, I can tell you with certainty because I stopped by that show, like I stopped by the project from time to time just to see what's being said that's gonna roll me up. But they had this bloke, I actually don't know much about him. I didn't know who he was until I watched him on there the other day. So he's a black guy coming in speaking about race-based politics. And this idea that, so his whole idea is let's not treat people based on the color of the skin, like this.
idea that we've had for quite a while now, which seems to be the reverse of how many so many of us are approaching life at the moment. But he comes onto this TV, this talk show, which it's quite a left leaning talk show. Like it's not going to be news to anyone who knows it. They're very much like this idea that, okay, like every white, every white person's privileged, every black person's disadvantaged. And he comes in and goes, well, like, let's, let's just break this down for a little bit, because I grew up in an environment which completely contradicts what it is that
Michael McQueen (27:34.495)
Yeah. Yep.
Michael McQueen (27:46.335)
Right. Yeah.
Tyson (28:01.526)
you guys believe about my particular race. And it was interesting because halfway through the conversation, he was making so many brilliant points. Like the actual content that he was there to discuss, it was really hard to argue, but more than that, he was calm, he was clear, he was respectful. He seemed to be like the perfect combination of the things that we're talking about now. Anyway, one of the hosts, her name's Sunny, she came in and started doing this thing where, rather than talking about what he was there to talk about,
She just started bringing up these criticisms that apparently people were saying about him like he's an insider for the conservatives, he actually doesn't believe, like he's a race trader, blah, blah. And he goes, look, there's absolutely no evidence to support anything that you've just said there. And so rather than us wasting time debating this, I've got eight minutes, like, is it okay if we stick to the topic that I was actually brought in here to talk about? But he did it in a way that was even more polite than what I just did at then. You're like, oh.
Michael McQueen (29:00.28)
Yeah.
Tyson (29:01.206)
It was not only humble and kind and open and sincere, but it was courageous. And it was, you could just see her get put in a back seat and go, okay, well, this is really important. And what I loved about that was, I think sometimes I make the mistake of thinking if you're gonna be open, yet you have to just agree and go along with it. But he demonstrated this awesome ability to be able to completely disagree with what a person was doing.
Michael McQueen (29:20.918)
Hmm.
Tyson (29:26.222)
but doing it in a way that was respectful and steer the conversation in like a more productive direction.
Michael McQueen (29:31.006)
Yeah, yep.
And that's so critical, I think, in any conversation is to bear in mind when those strong emotions come out, typically the part of your brain that's in control at that point is not the part of your brain that you're gonna do your best thinking with. So one of the things I look at in the book is this notion that fact that, you know, we often say I'm in two minds or I'm of two minds about a certain decision. The reality is it's very true. And it's true in ways that most of us aren't aware of. So there's actually two different parts of our brain or two minds that are functioning at any given moment.
Tyson (29:45.35)
That's it.
Michael McQueen (30:02.26)
first part of our mind, something I refer to as the inquiry mind is that logical, linear, rational, reasonable part of our brain. It's in the frontal lobe. And it's the reality is we'd like to think most of our thinking happens in our inquiry mind that we're all very reasonable and rational and open to any perspective. The truth is we only do about five to 10% of our thinking in our inquiry mind.
So where does most of our thinking happen and most of our perception formation in the instinctive mind? The instinctive mind is near the top of the brainstem. It's the part of the brain that's typically referred to as the limbic system. So this is where we process emotions, where many of our tribal instincts tend to live. It's also where our fight and flight reflexes tend to reside. And so the challenge is this, when we're exposed to ideas or information that are new, confronting, unsettling.
Typically, our instinctive mind will respond to those in the same way as if they were a physical threat. And so when there's a physical threat, what does our, our instinctive mind do? It goes to fight or flight. We do the same thing when it comes to ideas that feel threatening rather than actually stopping and going, Oh, I'm going to consider that. Cause that's interesting. We so easily, if we're not careful, jump to the defensive and we need the emotions start to spiral up and.
We even people's posture begins to change. And in that moment, so they call it an amygdala hijack because the amygdala is one of the most powerful parts of our limbic system. That's where that fight flight reflex lives. When your amygdala hijack takes off and your face gets flushed, your palms get sweaty, your pulse begins to race because essentially you are going into battle mode.
And so in that instance on the view sounds like the other host, that was her vibe. She was in that sort of amygdala moment. And the truth is you can't really have good reasonable conversations. And sometimes in, in a, in a really difficult situational conversation, the best thing you can do is say, look, can we just, let's just press pause there. This might be good to circle back to and talk about tomorrow or next week, another time, let the emotions simmer down.
Michael McQueen (31:56.282)
Or all you need to do is acknowledge the fact that the other person might be finding what you're saying a bit confronting. Just acknowledge that they might feel threatened by and go, I'm really sorry if that's the case. No, that's not my intention. Cause what it does is it makes the other person feel, here's the key word safe. The moment people's brains feel safe, they can think. And if we don't feel like we are safe, and I think we've got to be so mindful when we go into conversations that we often back people into a corner. And essentially the only option for them is to admit that in order to admit they might've been wrong.
have to also admit they were an idiot. And people's egos don't like that. And so how do you give people that sense of safety that even if they realize that maybe some things they thought were wrong, that that's actually okay. And that that's not a reflection, and that's not a poor reflection on them. It's just a reflection on the fact that they might have learned something and grown. And sometimes what you can do is actually acknowledge that you often stuff up too, that you often way off base and
Tyson (32:29.952)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (32:50.662)
that creates a sense of psychological safety because it's like we're in this together. I'm not the one who's always got it together and you're not the one who's, you know, had to change their mind because they were a fool. We're actually together. We're always learning stuff and this is just your moment to go. I hadn't thought of that before. And so just creating a space where people's instinctive minds feel safe is half the battle. If you're going to actually get through to another person.
Tyson (33:12.482)
Yeah, how'd you find yourself in this scene?
Michael McQueen (33:16.13)
So this is 20 years. I've actually been doing the, like the conference speaking thing full time. And I love it. I really, every day is different, different industries, different countries. I initially started off doing conference, sort of keynote speaking and research and writing back in 2004, because I was young-ish, I was 22.
And I was working in a software marketing role and I was seeing so much conflict in the team I was in based on generations, you know, baby boomers versus Gen X and Gen Y. I remember thinking, this is such a big issue and it seemed to be an issue broadly. Like there's so many organizations were grappling with this. And so as a Gen Y or a millennial, I thought like, what's actually going on? Why are there these differences and how do we try and bridge the gap? And so I initially, the opportunity I could see that wasn't essentially being addressed was
No one was actually helping particularly teenagers in high schools understand older generations. Cause if you're in, you know, up a range of high school in a couple of years, you're gonna probably be working for a baby boomer. Here's how they think. Here's how to play the game, how to get on with different generations you're about to have to work with. And so I initially started running a program with high school students. And then after doing that for three and a half years, worked with 80,000 Gen Ys or millennials. So I had a pretty big sample set of what's actually happening in youth culture. And then I wrote my first book about generational change.
based on that. And then over the years, so the book that's just come out recently is book number 10. So I've done a number of books all around where the world's heading from a demographic and the technological standpoint. This particular body of research behind the mindstuck book is all about what I was seeing as I was talking with clients who are saying, you know, my people, they know all the logic as to why that we need to change, why we need to adapt to what sort of disruptions are coming down the line. But still, they don't change. Why? Like, how do I get through to people when they feel
Like that sense of stubbornness or obstinance kicks off. And in fact, the harder you push as a leader, the more you try and persuade, the more they dig their heels in. Like what actually is going on in people's brains? And so essentially this book was an attempt to answer that question of why, like why don't smart people change? And then how do you sort of help people get out of a mental rut?
Tyson (35:20.605)
Yeah
Tyson (35:23.854)
What was so interesting the last couple of years, especially here in Australia, but all over the world, one of the things that I've been, uh, like just mind blown by, uh, was, was through the COVID period and just hearing the debate on either side of, well, I mean, like the vaccine debate was a really big one for, for so many people, but then even about just your approach to, okay, how do we actually deal with this situation as a whole? And, uh, like you would have.
Michael McQueen (35:33.783)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (35:40.653)
Yeah.
Tyson (35:49.03)
someone who is way smarter than me on this side of the fence and someone that's way smarter me on this side of the fence and then these experts are butting heads about what's true and then you go well hang on a second so they're both referring to research and they're both referring to science and it all sounds legit to my untrained ear and yet there's still such a like a divide and this guy's calling this guy conspiracy theorists and this guy's saying this guy's just been taken over by industry and it's so wild and for me, I think
Michael McQueen (35:55.734)
Yeah. Yep.
Michael McQueen (36:13.41)
Yeah.
Tyson (36:16.122)
that was part of what really attracted me to your message was this idea that you can be a really intelligent person and yet this idea of emotion or skin in the game or money, or there seemed to be so many factors which really impact your ability to actually think clearly, even outside of emotion. And that was something which was just staggered until that point, I think for a big part of my life, I'd always just looked, if you were a doctor, I'd go, okay, you know about health. And if you were this, I'll go, okay, you know about this.
Michael McQueen (36:43.99)
Yeah.
Tyson (36:45.498)
And it was the first time I ever stopped and go, hang on, like, I'm not convinced anyone knows. And that was something I wanted to talk to you about because I think over the last 12 months, I would say my like cynicism, maybe for lack of a better word around experts, especially like doctors and health professionals has really been brought to question. And how do you deal with that? So I guess my question in all of that is there's these people that
Michael McQueen (36:52.365)
Mm.
Michael McQueen (37:09.43)
Yeah. Yep.
Tyson (37:15.406)
forever, I've personally trusted. I've looked at it and I've got, okay, you're a smart person, you're speaking well. But then the flip side of that is, okay, there's another smart person who's speaking well on the opposite side of the fence, and it's really hard to try and grapple with what it is that each are saying. Have you got any cues for actually navigating like which particular person to trust, or what you should actually be looking for in the message that a person's communicating? Because for me, it's like, okay, that presence, they're referring to science.
Michael McQueen (37:41.251)
Yeah.
Tyson (37:44.73)
They seem genuine on both sides. There's a lot in that. I hope there was some form of a question, but even if you just speak to that idea.
Michael McQueen (37:53.346)
I think that the people I tend to trust are those who've got an appreciation for nuance. To me, a red flag is when anyone, regardless of the letters after their name or how much experience they've got, when they've got a very rigid dogmatic view and they can't appreciate that there are other perspectives from theirs that have value and merit. You know, the moment you speak to someone who doesn't have an appreciation for nuance, to me, that's someone that I tread carefully around. Because, you know, people who are true experts,
Tyson (38:02.286)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Michael McQueen (38:22.494)
really recognize that life is complex and human beings are complex and science is complex. And it's funny, the refrain we so often heard in the last few years was trust the science as if science was a dogmatic set of gospel principles that you couldn't question. Now science is a methodology. Science is a posture of curiosity. It is always asking questions, being willing to rethink, being willing to revisit testing hypotheses. So science is not a fixed thing that we can put our faith in. It's a
Tyson (38:33.07)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (38:51.086)
process. And so to me, you want to trust people and listen to people who have an appreciation for that nuance. That's one of the first things I would also look at is if the person that you're listening to or dialing into has a very narrow view and it's very dogmatic and very fierce and firm, often what belies that is that maybe they haven't actually done a lot of looking outside their own echo chamber. They haven't read widely. They haven't challenged your own thinking, which therefore means that there are probably perspectives they haven't considered. The other thing that for me, I always look at is what's the fruit.
Like if you extrapolate this forward, if I take on board with this person saying, what's it going to lead to over time compounded is going to lead to people who are getting on better, who are more free in their thinking, living lives, where they're actually being more effective, more generous, where the community is more harmonized. And so I think the reality is sometimes you listen to people and they've got a great perspective, but if you expand that out, you amplify that out and what does it lead to people who are.
angry at other parties or define themselves as not being like them and ripping our society essentially apart. I'm like, Hey, again, you might be right. But if the fruit of what you're doing is leading people to not like the other side of the other party, to me, that's again, a red flag that someone I'll, I'll take what they say with a grain of salt. And the other thing I was all, what do I say is when it comes to checking yourself, what, how does the principle apply in practice and how does it apply with people?
But to me, that's one of the key things. And I know throughout the pandemic, I was certainly one who, I mean, I came from a family of people who were scientifically minded. My dad was a science teacher. My mom is a pharmacist. I've got multiple siblings who are in the scientific world. And so, you know, for instance, I remember when the vaccine was being released, the first thing I wanted to look at, in fact, was being researched. My mom being a pharmacist was invited with all the Aussie pharmacists to dial into a zoom call.
with the team at Oxford to listen to what the process they were going through was for the AstraZeneca vaccine. So this is back in, what have been September 2020, maybe August, like it was months away from even their final stage of testing. And I was so impressed with the humility, the rigor, the calmness, the thoughtfulness of the people who were presenting their research, showing what they'd done, what they'd found, things that hadn't gone the way they'd hoped. Like there was such rigor.
Michael McQueen (41:03.406)
And so to me, from the early stages, I'm like, I have a degree of confidence in the people who've done the science behind the vaccine. So I was probably, I found myself getting a bit limbic systemy with people who were anti-vaccine just because they didn't want to be forced. I'm like, come on. Like, there are so many things we do and take that are risky and there is a risk with vaccines. There was no doubt ever, but we take risks all the time with all sorts of medicines. Why this one all of a sudden? So I found myself getting frustrated, impatient with people who are just
Tyson (41:17.698)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (41:33.246)
violently anti-vaxxers because they've been told they had to. I'm like, that's just, that's sort of quite petulant child vibes going on. I had a few friends who were definitely in that category. And then I had an experience. So I went back to the gym, gyms opened. So it would have been, I don't know, whatever month it was, I lose track in the whole COVID times. And if you'd been vaccinated and you show your little QR code thing, you could go into the gym and do a workout like normal, but if you hadn't, you had to work out outside.
Tyson (41:45.94)
Yeah.
Tyson (41:49.785)
Me too.
Michael McQueen (41:58.942)
And I remember like up until now I'd been like, you know what? Yeah. People who take the vaccine, who are caught in cold, bold enough and willing to do their thing for the community. They should be rewarded. And then I turned up for a workout one day, one of my mates is outside. And I remember just feeling like watching this scene gave me a different perspective on the whole vaccine issue. Cause it wasn't just a principle anymore. It was a person who had a name and it was, and it felt like, and this might be too strong or too serious, but I felt like apartheid, you know, in South Africa. It was like.
Tyson (42:07.398)
Hehehehe
Michael McQueen (42:28.854)
The great unwashed were outside and those of us who were the pure of heart, we were inside, we were, we were worthy. We were better. And I remember thinking, feeling very uncomfortable with that. And certainly I still feel very strongly that the medical world to a large degree can be trusted, not completely. I mean, anyone who watches like dope sick and you see how just corrupt the FDA was around, you know, Oxycontin and like how that was all rolled out that issues around, um, you know, prescription medication abuse in the U S.
You can't help but have just moments of trusting regulatory authorities a bit less. But I think if you step back from it, I still have a fundamental respect and trust for people in the medical world. But at the same time, when I saw the impact of that on my mate, it just gave me a different perspective. It softened my view. So I would also say whenever you're getting a really strong perspective from someone, how does that principle apply practically and with people? And if it, if it doesn't apply in a way that, that loves and honors and dignifies people and probably again.
Tyson (43:20.566)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (43:26.742)
Take that advice, take that perspective with a grain of salt.
Tyson (43:29.79)
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting just what seeing the face behind the argument and the situation like that can do, hey, because I would say it's really interesting to hear you say it, because I was probably one of those blokes that would have done your head in early in the piece, just because I was sitting there and I was like, look, I had some family in America who would, around our age, who had sort of, they seemed to be about 12 months further down the track than we were here in Australia, and they both had COVID and they...
Michael McQueen (43:34.102)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (43:42.156)
Yeah.
Tyson (43:54.978)
that like there was no pressure necessarily to be vaccinated where they, I mean, there was certainly encouragement, rightly so, at the, at the start, like when they thought it was the way forward. And he was like, Oh, I haven't got it yet, but I've had COVID and I've recovered quickly. And I was like, well, that's sort of where I found myself. But then to sort of flip it, I was on Instagram, sorry, I was on Facebook one day and I saw a friend of mine that I do comedy with, she had posted, I'm happy for you not to be vaccinated, but if you vaccinated and expect hospital treatment, I think we should deserve the right to say no.
And I remember just getting so riled up and being like, what a crazy statement and thinking you're like, you're an idiot. That's ridiculous. Blah, blah. Anyway, the flip side of what you just said happened to me because I was like, I don't think I can have anything to do with this person. Like that, what a crazy, crazy thing to say. Then things calm down. We eventually got let out. I went to a gig where, where she's from. She's a comedian. We started having a chat and about halfway through the conversation, she just dropped how emotional she was getting throughout the whole process.
Michael McQueen (44:24.405)
Wow.
Tyson (44:54.27)
Um, uh, you know, she had family who she felt were vulnerable and she was getting frustrated. She wanted everyone to make sure they were looking out for them. And then as she started talking, I was like, started to get a little bit of an idea where her passion for her side of the thing came from, which is ironic. Like the fact that you had the same experience in reverse. And it was a bit of a humbling moment for me where I was like, okay, well, this is a clearly a good person who was probably like me a little over passionate, a little, a little too fiery about her side.
Michael McQueen (45:07.295)
Yeah.
Tyson (45:22.514)
And from there, it's like, ah, it's been a really big mark in my life to go, okay, well, just because you completely disagree with a particular person's stance doesn't mean that there's a reason that you can't still get on. In fact, I can't remember if it was you that was speaking about this, but I heard recently, I think it was you, speak to me if it was, but it wasn't too long ago that we would share streets and our kids would play with people who
Politically, we're on complete opposite side of the fence to where we were, but based on the fact there was no social media and if you didn't have the chance to have a conversation with them, it was just information that you never would have known about and so you found yourself, whether you're a Republican or Democrat or you know, conservative, liberal, whatever, getting along really well with people who saw the world in a completely different light to you and I mean, there's no surprises there that social media seems to have ramped up so many of the differences, particularly in regards to what we were just speaking about, but I mean.
Michael McQueen (46:03.758)
Yeah.
Michael McQueen (46:17.143)
Yeah.
Tyson (46:17.994)
in regards to so many issues of life.
Michael McQueen (46:21.386)
does and the challenge is, so take your friend for example, you don't get any complexity, any nuance from social media. I mean, what she posted, this is the challenging thing is what she posted had a whole backstory to it that you didn't hear. You only saw the end result, which is a bit like the proverbial tip of the iceberg. And yet what we can often do is then take that tip of the iceberg and extrapolate it in a completely different way and then make up a backstory. And so that then feeds into our us versus them dynamics. And so I think you're certainly the polarization thing. Part of that is social media because
And this is, I mean, no great revelation. We all know this is true that, that the algorithms themselves mean that we see what we want to see, you know, that we see what we already believe that we already agree with the things that are from people who are like us. Um, and so typically that creates that echo chamber effect where all you ever see is views from people like you. And of course confirmation bias means when all you ever see is stuff you agree with, you think surely everyone thinks this, and then you encounter someone who doesn't and you think that is utterly inconceivable. How could someone not?
Tyson (47:19.494)
I'm sorry.
Michael McQueen (47:20.802)
think this because their algorithm is showing them something entirely different. Now the reality is you've got like Venn diagrams here. There are multiple points where your Venn diagrams overlap. There are things that you both value. The both C is important in terms of society and family and relationships. And how do you find those points of commonality first and start there? And I think that's one of the key things. If we're going to overcome polarization, it's easy to identify the things we don't agree on.
But if we start with the things we do agree on, actually we often find is that all we're actually using is different language to describe similar things. And we actually have far more in common, but the language we might use means that we describe something one way, they describe it another way, but actually we're describing the same thing in different terms. And so I think trying to find those points of commonality are difficult because it requires you to stop, to ask questions, to listen, to not race to judgment, to stay curious.
That takes time. It takes self-discipline because we love feeling right. We love feeling self-righteous. That's just, I think part of the human condition. But at the end of the day, all that does is lock us into our corners where instead of engaging with each other, we just lob ideological grenades at each other. And I mean, gosh, look at the last few years, look how well that worked out and how that, how well that's working out and it's not working. And so I think, you know, at what point can we come together increasingly and at least look at what we've got in common?
Tyson (48:34.342)
Yeah
Tyson (48:42.558)
Yeah, man, I think to a large degree, I mean, the expression goes that ignorance is bliss. And I've seen that in my own life as well. I think before I had any interest in politics, I could see a person and they, I might hear them speak about an idea, but that's a funny idea. But yeah, no worries. Like just let that slide. But then as you get more and more interested in politics, you start to be like, oh, that's a very left leaning idea. That's a very right leaning idea. And you'll hear a particular issue or you'll see a
Michael McQueen (49:03.546)
Yeah, yep.
Tyson (49:07.67)
you know, you see a person without a mask or with a mask or with blue hair or whatever, you're like, I disagree with everything about whatever it is that you seem to represent. It's so easy, isn't it, to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Maybe as a way to round out this conversation, I know you've given us a great, you know, a couple of cool strategies in regards to being in a conversation where you go, okay, let's continue this tomorrow. But when it comes to actually trying to form a connection with someone who...
Michael McQueen (49:18.958)
100%.
Tyson (49:33.743)
You know that fight or flight part of your brain is saying there's nothing that you two have in common How do you start that relationship because that's it that seems to be the real tricky balance
Michael McQueen (49:43.666)
Yeah. So I think one of the things that's really helpful is to try and that term I'll often use with clients is rather than trying to upsell your ideas, unsell them. If you actually lead with self deprecation and even a bit of self disclosure, in other words, like I don't have all the details and I'm still not a hundred percent sure about this myself. My hunch is that dot or like, you know, I might be way off here, but dot dot, or like I, like this is something I've been thinking. I'd be keen to get your input on dot dot.
By approaching people with that sense of openness and sort of unselling your ideas rather than trying to go and all guns blazing with all your best most watertight arguments, you're far more likely to and it's almost like the posture we use the word posture a few times in this conversation, if you're talking to someone and you move toward them, what's their instinct to move back?
Because if you go in and there's sometimes that sense of you move back a little bit, they'll come towards you. And so how even in our conversations can we go in with that sense of openness and humility now can't be like a tactic alone. Otherwise that's manipulative. But if you genuinely go and say, look, I'm just, I'm not a hundred percent, but I'm just, I'm, I'm curious about this. Or my hunch is that, or for what it's worth, blah, blah. Like just.
just softening our language and not trying to oversell everything. And even acknowledge the times when, you know, we actually have our own doubts about our perspective. It's amazing how that changes so much the dynamic because other person now isn't looking for the loopholes in your argument or trying to pull to pieces your logic. You've been honest. You've been open. You've been fair minded and they'll typically respond in kind.
Tyson (51:13.614)
Yeah, man, hey, that's a power pack, 50 minutes. Where can people who wanna find out more about you get in touch, man?
Michael McQueen (51:22.242)
Probably the best place to be my website. So michaelmcqueen.net and also socials. I'm on all the different platforms. Probably the big one for me though is LinkedIn. So I tend to share stuff daily on LinkedIn, either articles I'm reading, news headlines I'm finding relevant or interesting or compelling. A lot of data that I'm coming across from a research perspective. So that's Michael McQueen just on LinkedIn. You'll find me there.
Tyson (51:44.678)
Awesome, man, thanks so much for making the time to come on. It's been so good chatting with you. Awesome, see you later everybody. I'll cut that off there, man. Hey, thank you dude, that was an awesome chat.
Michael McQueen (51:47.286)
Pleasure. Likewise. Thanks so much.
Michael McQueen (51:53.895)
Awesome.
Thank you, mate. God, it was helpful. And I didn't. I was gonna say I didn't want to be too overt. So yeah, we got
Tyson (51:58.506)
It's one of those neat... Yeah, no sorry, go on.