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Lindsay sits down with Dr. Allen Bacon, a certified nutrition coach, who drops truth bombs on the misconceptions oft-seen on social media. They delve into topics like misconstruing credentials, credibility and follower counts. Drawing from his background in medical science, Dr. Allen admonishes multiple 'good vs bad' fallacies in food and fitness information while advocating for smart omnivore diets and verifiable, peer-reviewed research. He also discusses his career transition from dental surgery to fitness coaching and how people can approach determining a fitness or dietary intervention's success.
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Chapters:
00:00 Welcome
01:20 Introducing Dr. Allan Bacon
05:52 So much information, very little wisdom
09:45 Using our education for good or bad
13:09 How do you tell if someone is wrong?
15:14 Gurus tend to have large follower counts on social media
24:17 Are you concerend with who's right or what's right?
27:36 The human body versus the animal body
30:44 Debunking myths or lies from gurus
39:54 The good story tellers
45:26 Are the stories reputable?
52:50 How important is form really?
00:00 Welcome
01:20 Introducing Dr. Allan Bacon
05:52 So much information, very little wisdom
09:45 Using our education for good or bad
13:09 How do you tell if someone is wrong?
15:14 Gurus tend to have large follower counts on social media
24:17 Are you concerend with who's right or what's right?
27:36 The human body versus the animal body
30:44 Debunking myths or lies from gurus
39:54 The good story tellers
45:26 Are the stories reputable?
52:50 How important is form really?
Creators and Guests
What is LiftingLindsay's More Than Fitness?
Dive into the joy of fitness with Lindsay and other guests exploring how it goes well and beyond the gym floor, the number on the scale, the size of your waist or the calories you're counting.
Lindsay: Welcome to the
Lifting Lindsay podcast today.
I'm really excited to have Dr.
Allen on here with me.
Um, I don't even know how I discovered
you on Instagram, to be honest.
I don't follow a ton of accounts.
I'm very picky about who I
follow, but I, I loved your stuff.
So for those of you who don't follow
him, um, he posts a lot of Dr.
Allen versus like influencers.
Is that what you say?
Dr. Allan: Yeah, Alan versus influencers.
And one of the reasons that we,
that we chose that, that moniker
is because I tend to work a lot of
times with Alan Aragon and so as
collabs for these types of things.
And uh, and so it was kind of like
Alan's versus influencers in a way.
Lindsay: Oh, I love it.
Do you know what That's, that's
it, that's how I found you.
'cause I follow him and you
guys must have been linked and
I was like, oh, I like this guy.
And I
Dr. Allan: Well, yeah.
I mean, and it, it was, it's a
fun collaboration because, I mean,
you know, that there's a lot of
misinformation out there, and with
the way the social media works,
it's only gonna get worse and worse.
And so it was a fun way to be able
to debunk some of these things and
essentially use the same tactics that
these guys use to misinform people, but
to switch it around and inform people.
Lindsay: Okay.
Okay.
Hold that thought.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Who, for those of you, you're,
you're jumping the gun here.
For those of you who don't, for those
of my, um, listeners who this is
their first time hearing from you.
Give that two minute amazing sales pitch.
Sell yourself.
Dr. Allan: So this is, this is why
we're so bad at giving good information
because we don't sell ourselves
correctly.
So my name is, my name is Dr.
Alan Bacon.
I am a, physique and,
certified nutrition coach.
I had originally had a career
in, in dental surgery, believe
it or not, and then made the
Lindsay: No way.
Dr. Allan: Yeah.
Yeah.
Lindsay: I was wondering
how you got the doctor.
Dr. Allan: mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
And, and so it's funny because one
of the things that we're gonna be
talking about is credentialing and,
you know, how does that make you a, a,
specialist or an authority in an area.
And it's funny, um, this was a
transfer in, in life for quality
of life improvements and, you know,
physique, fitness, health, these things
had always been passions of mine.
And I was finding that when treating
patients, I mean, it was a difficult
thing because I was working, every day
of the year except I got nine days off.
And that included any sick days.
My dad had gotten cancer one
time and, and he was a, a doctor.
And I turned to him and I said, Hey,
if there was anything that you could
redo, what would, what would you do?
And he said, I, I would love to
have spent more time with my family.
I would've loved to have spent,
more time actually enjoying life.
And that same year, it was
December 24th, 8:30 PM and I was
in doing, emergency surgery.
When, um, my family, my in-laws were
having dinner and I was thinking, you
know, this is just, you know, Christmas
Eve doing this, you know, going in.
This is something that needs to change.
I turned to my wife and she was a
regional's qualifying CrossFit competitor.
She is an American record
holding Olympic weightlifter.
I was like, you know, we're
both really into fitness.
How about setting up a, a coaching
company and doing this on the side?
And she was like, yeah, let's do it.
And we were a great combination because
I do power lifting and bodybuilding
and health, and she does the CrossFit
and Olympic weightlifting sides.
And, um, so we complimented each other
really well and the, uh, the business
took off and then, um, you know,
switched over to it full time and,
and have been doing it ever since.
But, um, it's kind of a circuitous route
to the, the health and fitness side,
but I think that it's, it's ultimately
beneficial because, um, having that
background from, you know, med school
anatomy and physiology, um, you know,
microbiology, all that kind of stuff
should allow a person to have a little
bit more insight into how the body
works, be able to help people a little
bit better, and hopefully I can put
that to use to being able to, uh, to
make a difference in people's lives.
Lindsay: Yeah.
That's amazing.
I saw like a glimpse of your wife in,
uh, one of your posts, or it might
have been a story or something, and
I was like, okay, she clearly lifts.
Who is this woman?
Dr. Allan: She knows what she's doing.
There are a lot of very intelligent
people in, in health and fitness.
I think that for the general population,
seeing someone live what they preach
can be a really beneficial thing.
And I'm sure that you see this
too, because you are in really good
shape and that doesn't, being, being
outta shape shouldn't discredit a
person from having good information.
But the reality is for gen
pop, that is a big thing.
And so we, we kind of
benefit from, from that.
Plus, because we live in Hawaii,
we have to stay in shape since it's
bathing suit season all year round,
Lindsay: You have to.
I mean, here I am, here I
am in Utah, dead of winter.
There's like, uh, what?
Like a foot of snow out my window
so I can cover really well.
This is building season.
Dr. Allan: So we don't, we
don't technically have that.
We have, you build and, and
you just, you know, you, you
fight the urge to, to cut down
Lindsay: Take cut.
Yes.
Dr. Allan: Well, so we came originally
from the East coast and, uh, I grew up
in Maryland and she grew up in Boston.
We're actually ashamed to say
that at this point when it becomes
like 67 degrees, we're cold.
Lindsay: Oh yeah,
Dr. Allan: We've, we've
adjusted that badly.
Lindsay: Do you know what?
It's okay because I live in Utah
and I still feel the same way.
I'm like, okay, like we
don't go outside now.
Like we just,
Dr. Allan: I mean, I, I remember when
we were living back there, we would
go up to Boston to visitor family
and I would be in shorts in 27 degree
weather, and now there's no way.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Well, that's awesome.
Okay.
I love hearing a little bit of
your background and also that
you do this with your wife.
Let's go back to what you were
saying at the very beginning.
I had somebody explain this to me.
Well, I.
We were having this conversation.
I loved how they put this.
They said, we live in a world
where there's tons of food, mass
amounts of food, and yet very little
nutrition, and it just like hit me.
Oh my gosh.
We live in a world where there's
mass amounts of information
and very little wisdom.
Dr. Allan: Yeah, I, I think that,
I think that that's a little,
I think the way that you put it
second is, is a good way to put it.
And, and I don't, I don't believe
that there's a lack of nutrition.
I believe that there's a
lack of nutrition knowledge.
Lindsay: Okay.
Dr. Allan: Um, and I say that because,
I mean, even if you look at food
information between like the fifties
and now, food is not less nutritious.
Now we're just making the wrong
choices in a lot of situations.
Um, you know, you can still
get whole minimally processed
foods at the grocery store.
The question is, are you or
are you, or are we reaching for
all of the prepackaged food?
It's not that the availability isn't
there in most cases, it's that,
um, we've kind of gotten away from,
valuing whole minimally processed
foods the large majority of the time.
And we're getting to that stage where we
have to be very careful about how we as
health professionals put this out because
we don't want to get into a situation in
which we're pushing dichotomous thinking.
We don't wanna say this food is
100% good, this food is 100% bad.
Because the reality is when you look
at the research that that goes over
this stuff, when you push dichotomous
thinking of, of good or bad foods,
it actually makes it much less likely
that a person's going to sustain a
healthy relationship with food and,
and longevity with healthy nutrition.
Um, and so your point is
a hundred percent valid.
You know, pointing out that we probably
need to get better at moderating.
We probably need to get better
at valuing, um, lean proteins.
We probably need to get
better at valuing, um.
Fruits and vegetables, which
is very devoid in our diets.
And it's not an either or.
It's, it's not either
carnivore or, or vegan.
And unfortunately we're, we're seeing
social media and, you know, documentaries
on Netflix and, and everything like
that, pushing it as only one or,
or, or the other really make sense.
Look at all the health benefits here.
Look at all the health benefits here.
Well, yeah, I mean, you can show
health benefits to both of them,
but when you look at the research
as a whole, what comes out in front
and that's a smart omnivore diet.
So to your point, yeah, we do need
to, push, you know, nutritional
education and finding that balance
to where we're starting to move away
from some of that highly processed
foods to a more whole foods diet and
realizing that we can incorporate
some, some more processed foods in
our diet for sustainability purposes.
And
Lindsay: I love that.
Dr. Allan: that's the,
that's a hard balance.
Lindsay: It, it is a hard balance,
but, but like you said, finding
that moderation, but also just being
able to have the wisdom to kind of
spot like, how does this work for my
current, calorie nutritional needs?
And I feel like the same thing
kind of moves into the mass amounts
of information that we're seeing
on social media, on podcasts.
I mean, to be honest, anybody
can make an Instagram account,
anybody can make a TikTok account,
anybody can make a podcast.
So we kind of understand
that anybody can make that.
I mean, I'm a perfect example.
I made a podcast, right?
I didn't go to school, well, I did
actually go to school for communications.
Um, so I guess
I'm fulfilling that
Dr. Allan: You're putting it
to, you're putting it to use.
That's
Lindsay: I'm, but I, but I also went
to school for Spanish, and I'm not
necessarily fulfilling that part.
But anyways, so it, it's interesting
because anybody can make it
so we kind of understand that.
Anybody can make it.
So those people who don't have those
credentials, obviously we're just gonna
kind of take it worth a grain of salt.
But also we're now seeing that
anybody with a master's or doctorate
kind of heavily uses that as
leverage to be able to say anything.
Anything.
And I feel like we're just kind
of seeing that in the masses.
What are your thoughts on
Dr. Allan: We're seeing this play
out in a really negative manner.
The reality is that I'm just as
culpable for this as anybody else.
I mean, you know, I, I even
have my name down as Dr.
Allen right here.
But the reason that a lot of people do
that is because one, it does instill
some immediate credibility, right?
Because you theoretically should be able
to understand the body a little bit better
if you've got a background in some kind
of medical science and, you should be
able to read research a little bit better.
But the, to your question, people,
I wonder, okay, well if a person
has this type of, credential,
how do I know if what they're
saying is actually trustworthy?
And the reality is for gen pop, it's very,
very difficult to to figure that out.
Because you even have people that,
sound like they should be specialists
in areas and their completely off in,
in the message that they're giving.
And one of the, the, the examples
that stands out to me is Dr.
Ludwig from Harvard.
He's from Harvard.
He is a metabolic researcher and he
is 100% wrong in all the stuff that he
pushes because he has tenure at Harvard,
and so they can't really get rid of him.
And he makes a lot of money off of
the carbohydrate insulin theory.
And unfortunately for him, the
carbohydrate insulin theory
has been largely debunked.
We know that insulin is not the cause
of fat gain in a calorie deficit.
And how do we know that?
Well, we have mountains of research
at this point to point that out.
Wegovy, you know, these, these, um, GLP
one mimetics, these drugs that are out,
that people are going towards ozempic,
they wouldn't even work if his theory
was correct because they raise insulin.
Yet the issue that he has is that he will
push situations where, okay, well look at
this research and he'll show you research.
And in it the insulin is raised and
in it the person gains body fat.
Well, insulin is essentially
a, a, a transport hormone.
And when you're in a calorie surplus,
you've got a lot of extra energy.
So it can transport it into situations
where it can be stored as fat.
In a calorie deficit, it doesn't
matter how high it is, when you
don't have anything to add to
fat, you can't add anything.
And so he manipulates the science
to convince people, but he doesn't
mention, oh, this only, this is
only relevant in a calorie surplus.
So if you try to lose fat, you're gonna be
fine regardless of what your insulin does.
Even the fact that that, you
know, protein spikes insulin, I'm
gonna, I'm not gonna mention that.
I'm just gonna say, Hey, cut out
all your carbs and you'll be fine.
And we're ignoring all the benefits
that those carbs could give.
How do you tell?
Well, unfortunately, credentials are not.
A good way to tell if a person
is, uh, is actually correct and
neither is follower account.
And that's where the two main
things that people look towards
right now with social media.
So what do you do?
Well, you stay as critical of
information as you possibly can.
Assume that anybody that's talking
to you, including myself, is wrong.
Just assume that off the bat,
that's a good way to start.
And then have a discourse
with them if you can.
If you see any of my posts online or
if, or, you know, when you see your
posts, you're more than happy to have
back and forth conversations with
people, which is a wonderful thing.
So ask them, Hey, you know, you
say that the carbohydrate insulin
theory isn't accurate, but Dr.
Ludwig says it is.
And why do you say that?
And he says this, if the person
that you're talking to can explain
their stance, and also why the
claims of the other guy is wrong.
That's a really good indicator that
they actually know the whole story
rather than just this one part of the
story that they're trying to show you.
It's like the person that knows what
they're doing is, is, you know, turning
the light on the entire room, whereas
the person that's trying to convince you
of something that may not necessarily be
true is showing you one spot of the room
with a spot with a, with a flashlight and
not allowing you to see the rest of it.
And so, you know, I have been asked
this question on, on a couple podcasts
at this point, and it's a really
difficult thing to, to answer because
there's not a very distinct answer.
But understanding that the person that
you're talking to who might be the
authority knows the entire story, is
likely where you should be going, rather
than trusting the credentials themselves
or the follower count themselves.
You know, for me, I actually had a
conversation with somebody yesterday
and they were like, well, why should
I trust you and not this other
guy who you're debunk, debunking?
And I said, don't trust me.
Look at the research that I've
presented, see if there's any
holes in anything that I said.
See if there's any holes in anything that
I've said about what they've presented,
and then come back with questions.
That's literally the best that
you can possibly do in the way
the social media is set up.
And what's really confusing for most
people is that the people that tend to
be gurus, not all but, but in most cases,
tend to have larger follower accounts.
And you have to understand that the
reason that that happens is because of
how these social media algorithms work.
If a reputable person comes out and
they say, nutrition, sleep, exercise,
stress management, follow these things
and you're gonna do 99% of the best
that you possibly can for health.
You get six likes.
If another person comes out and they
say, you have to go sun your taint and
you'll get a 200% dopamine increase, and
then you need to ice in a tub for three
hours a day and you're gonna boost your
dopamine and you're gonna boost your heat
shock proteins and you're gonna boost
your, you know, and, and they start going
out with these just outrageous claims.
All of the people who are
anti-establishment will hit like all
of the people who believe in sleep,
stress, nutrition, and exercise
will argue in the comments section.
Lindsay: Which gives it a boost.
Dr. Allan: Yes.
Both of those groups will share it.
The taint sunners will say,
Hey look, this is amazing.
He there, he's agreeing with what we say.
And look at these, these studies that
were done in Singapore on two nematodes
and see what it did and look at,
that's proof that what we do works.
And then somebody else goes out
and they go, this is the most
ridiculous thing in the world.
Let's laugh at this.
But they've shared it too.
You have double or triple the reach
of a person that's telling you,
Hey, you should sleep eight hours.
The social media algorithm is not
set up to give you good information.
It's set up to give you
the most outrageous type of
information that you can find.
So instead of getting the reputable
type of information that we're
getting, we're essentially getting
Jerry Springer day in and day out.
But it, but Jerry Springer is being
presented as a, you know, a reputable TED
talk or, or whatever you want to consider
as, as a reputable source of information.
I think deep down, you know, when it's
explained, I think that we know that.
But I think that we're, when
we're in the moment consuming this
information, we don't know that.
And I think that it becomes very
difficult because I, just like
if I were to go into a mechanic
and say, my car's making a noise.
You know, what's the problem?
They could literally tell me
anything and I'd just be like, okay.
I think that that's how general
population deals with the body and
nutrition and exercise and there's
so much, there's more bad information
out there than there's good.
And so how are you supposed
to know what is good?
And there's not an easy answer, you
know, short of, you know, going through
these science courses, it's ask questions
and be overly critical of people, you
know, grill them with questions and,
and allow them to explain that to you.
It's the best that you can possibly do.
And I wish there was an easy answer.
Lindsay: That was such a good, that was
such a good response though, because as
I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, yeah,
the people who really know their stuff,
they're not threatened and it's not about,
they're not threatened by questions.
They invite them from a genuine place, I
mean, you can tell when it's just a toxic
person coming at you versus a genuine,
Dr. Allan: Have you heard that term?
Sea lioning?
Lindsay: no.
What's that?
Dr. Allan: Sea lioning is a
disingenuous form of discourse.
I bring this up because this is what
I fall into a lot of times with people
who are emotionally involved in one
of the things that are being debunked.
Sea lioning is a disingenuous form
of discourse where you ask questions,
not because you're actually trying
to learn, but because you're
trying to trick somebody or, or
catch them or, or infuriate them.
Um, and as an example, I had one guy
who, we debunked, um, yesterday a, a,
a thing where somebody claimed that,
I think it was something like 60% of
whey protein is converted to glucose,
Lindsay: Oh my gosh, I saw
Dr. Allan: which is absolutely ludicrous.
I mean, gluconeogenesis is the,
the process of converting protein
to glucose, which can happen.
It does not happen very readily.
And if you eat carbs.
It almost doesn't happen at all.
And it doesn't happen 'cause
your body doesn't need to
convert glucose from Protein one.
It's really hard.
It is.
It's very easy to convert carbs to
glucose because it doesn't take 15
different steps in the interim to do that.
Whereas with, with protein, it takes
a lot of extra steps and your body's
gonna be as efficient as possible.
Your body's
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: Your body's going
to be as efficient as possible.
And so this, this guy was, was
arguing with me and he was trying
to say, well, why are you, why
are you promoting whey protein?
Because it was whey versus an egg.
And the claim was that you should
never have whey protein because eggs
provide protein in a better manner.
And the, the debunking of that was
it's context dependent because,
um, they're both very viable and
bioavailable sources of protein.
One comes likely with a lot
less calories per the protein.
So maybe somebody needs more protein in
their diet, but they don't need extra fat.
They're already eating enough eggs.
Or avocado or other sources of fat.
So maybe the, extra eggs in their diet
could be prohibitive because it would
put them over in their daily calories.
And gaining fat is probably
not the right move.
And so it's context dependent and
people hate the answer of it depends,
which is literally the answer for 99%
of fitness and nutrition questions.
It always depends.
And so in a, in an attempt to be very
disingenuous, um, and I kept saying
it's context dependent, you know, who
is the person, what are their goals?
What does the rest of
their diet look like?
How does this fit in the overall diet?
Both of them are excellent
sources of protein.
Both are excellent sources of food
and neither of them really comes
with a major negative unless you're
eating like 30 eggs per day, you could
potentially have some cholesterol issues.
In normal intakes
it's not a problem for cholesterol,
it's cholesterol normative.
But again, this is that, there's so
much nuance to this and that's why
I'm kind of like rambling about this
because it takes a lot of discussion.
So I kept saying it's context dependent.
And he's like, okay, well if you're
trapped on an a, a desert island and you
can only have an egg or whey protein,
I'm like, this is not, this is not the
situation in which we are being presented.
You're, you have a grocery store.
Like, you know, there's other
things that you're eating.
Lindsay: I think that's the last
thing that's gonna be on your mind
if you're trapped on an island too,
like.
Dr. Allan: he, he literally asked this 10
minutes before we started this podcast.
And, and in my mind I was laughing so
hard about it 'cause I, I had explained
that it was context dependent each time.
And there's a lot of questions
that you would need to ask to
figure out if this is right.
You know, is this the end of the day and
we only have a hundred calories that we
need to get 15 more grams of protein?
Well, egg's not gonna work.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Allan: It's so funny when people
bring up these situations because
they're literally just trying to
prove a point and not trying to learn.
And that's fine.
And even when you're talking with
somebody who is an supposed authority
on a subject, and if I'm debunking
something, I'm the supposed or, or
self-appointed authority on it, right?
Whether I'm right or not.
I could be wrong.
And that's, that's okay.
So present your case in a genuine manner,
you know, present some peer-reviewed
research or a relevant situation in
which you could say, Hey, you know,
I've looked at what you've presented
and I don't think that this fits
what you're saying and this is why.
And that's okay.
Let's not create a scenario where we're
days from death because we can't get
water and are trapped on a desert island.
And so, you know, is what's the
difference between whey and and an egg?
I mean, do I have a shaker cup?
Do I have water available?
Like what amount of whe
versus what amount of eggs?
And like in my mind I kept thinking the
answer is whatever has more calories.
Because if I'm trapped on a desert
island, any of the minuscule differences
in vitamins and minerals will make no
difference in the absence of calories.
'cause I'm just gonna die.
So I didn't wanna answer that
'cause I didn't wanna fall
into this sea lion in context.
But, but this is an example of people will
get out there and be very disingenuous.
And so if you are a person that wants to
know who to follow and wants to actually
objectively learn, then objectively learn.
And don't go into it with a,
oh, I'm gonna prove my stance.
Don't prove your stance.
Don't ever try to prove your stance.
Try to figure out, why is what I
think potentially wrong, and maybe
it isn't, but you need to be critical
about that because you can be wrong.
And even anybody with a doctor in front
of their title can easily be wrong.
I mean, we see it all
the time on social media.
So, just like gen Pop needs to be
overly critical about themselves,
so do we as as fitness and nutrition
providers, but part of us being genuine
is receiving legitimate questions
and legitimate critiques rather
than emotionally driven critiques.
Lindsay: There's, there's somebody
that I can, uh, think of, um, I used
to follow him and then he, he blocked
me, but I, I shared a study and he,
that, that was very threatening to him.
But anyways, so he blocked
me, but it's frustrating.
I remember when I followed him for a short
time, and people would ask him questions
and his response was, that's stupid.
Or You're stupid if you believe that.
And I'm like there's too
much ego involved here.
So I feel like if you're gonna
follow somebody, a huge red flag
can be like, are they more concerned
about who's right or what's right.
Dr. Allan: Yeah.
I, you know, I, I a hundred
percent agree with you.
Um, I, I'm, I'm, I'm hesitantly responding
because I, I can remember long ago when
I first started, I was a lot worse at
responding to some of these questions.
I mean, like years and years ago.
And I'd be like, look at the research.
I literally presented it.
Now I'm a much more patient person.
And so as you're, as you're saying that,
I a hundred percent agree with you.
And I think that there are going
to be times where people that
you talk to on social media are
going to be emotionally defensive.
And even people that know
what they're talking about are
being emotionally defensive.
I don't think that there's necessarily
an excuse for acting that way, but I
do understand sometimes why, why we do.
Now if, if you're, again, this is,
this all goes back to being genuine
and why, and why I think you're
reinforcing that message really well.
If you have a critique of a person,
please try not to bring up desert
islands, but please do actually pay
attention to what they're saying.
And then if you have a critique and you
say, okay, well, and, and I've seen this
all the time in our, in, you know, the
debunks that I do, if a person says,
well, I see the information that you
presented, but I see this study and
this study says something different.
And, um, that's fine.
I love that.
There's one of two things
that are gonna happen.
Either I'm gonna see that and
say, oh, shit, he's right.
And then, then I potentially have
to amend the way that I think, or
I'm gonna look at that and I'm gonna
be like, well, I actually covered
why this doesn't make any sense.
But then I get to point that out,
and that, that happens more often
than not with people that really
know what they're talking about.
But that's okay because when
you point out why those studies
aren't necessarily relevant, that
person can potentially learn.
But more importantly than that,
because a lot of times those people are
emotionally vested, more importantly than
that, all the lurkers are gonna learn.
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Because
Dr. Allan: the people that don't say
anything tend to be more objective
than the person that's that's arguing.
Lindsay: Yeah.
Dr. Allan: And so for the, for the
fitness professionals out there
that are really trying to make
a difference, keep that in mind.
I mean, that's, that's one thing
that, that I learned, and I, I try
to keep in mind every time that I
respond to people until it becomes
ridiculous, that it's not just a
conversation between you and that person.
There are a lot of people
that are learning from it.
So if you can display why some
of those things are wrong, you're
gonna answer a lot of questions
that haven't explicitly been posed.
And the problem with a lot of these
people that are spreading misinformation,
the, the gurus in the charlatans is
there is a very, very, um, molecular and
animal heavy slant to their research.
Lindsay: Mm.
Dr. Allan: people don't realize
that molecular data and animal data,
it very rarely translates directly
to humans and in the human body.
You know, I could take someone's liver
and I could, I could do something to
it, and I could, you know, put a whole
bunch of, of whatever ingredient it is
in a medium with this liver, and we could
cause liver failure in the human body.
It might not look anything like that.
It might not look anything like that
because your kidneys are also functioning
and your kidneys are removing the
large majority of that ingredient
from the body before it even has a
chance to do anything to the liver.
And so in conjunction, the human body
is a very complex and amazing thing.
And so when we get into these things,
like nematodes or, or rats or, or
molecular data, even the in vitro data
where we're using human cells, there
are compensatory mechanisms in the
body and additional mechanisms in the
body that will often prevent these
problems from even remotely happening.
So, you know, the dose of whatever's
happening is really important.
The movement of the rest of the pieces
of the body is really important.
And so be very careful when you are
engaging with these people and make
sure that they're giving you research
that's in humans showing practical
effects at realistic intakes or,
methods of whatever you're trying to do.
And I mean, one of the things
that pops up to me is cold water
immersion and, and cryotherapy.
99% of the information that these people
are giving out to prove that cold water
and cryo works requires you to sit in an
ice tub up to your neck for over an hour.
It requires you to spend a lot more time
doing things that you could get the same
results, doing other things that are much
shorter and provide much more benefits.
Lindsay: And more enjoyable
for most of us too.
Dr. Allan: and more enjoyable.
Yeah.
There's, the dopamine angle comes into
play, and I'm gonna give this example
because it's, it's a good way to
discuss this and, and give a practical
example of what I'm talking about.
So there are, there are podcasters
that will come out and I've actually
heard them say, if you get in cold
water for three minutes, you're
gonna boost your dopamine by 250%.
One, that's never been, I've
actually heard that exact claim,
and it's by a person that has over a
million followers on, on Instagram.
One that's never been shown.
There's a study that shows
that there's a 250% increase in
dopamine, and it was done in 2000
by someone named Shreek, I believe.
Don't quote me on the last name,
but I can get it to anybody
that wants, just message me.
But they, they sat in ice for an hour.
The problem with this is you can get
a comparable increase to that by just
getting on a bike for 10 minutes.
A stationary bike, you can get a
significant increase in dopamine by just
sitting still for five to 10 minutes.
And this dopamine increase when you
look at the research, if you do this
icing or cryo repeatedly, the dopamine
increase attenuates, it becomes less and
less and less each time that you do it.
But none of that's mentioned.
So instead they're selling thousand
dollar cold tubs, for a, an effect
that you could get by hopping on
a bike for 10 minutes and then
increasing your cardiovascular health.
Going for a run for 10
minutes would do this.
Increasing your cardiovascular
health, increasing stroke volume
so you perform better aerobically.
There are all these nuances and it's
really difficult to discuss this because
you get the guy with a million followers
and, you know, without even remotely
looking at any of the research he
presents, people just take that as gospel.
And so debunking stuff is a, is
unfortunately a, a daily job.
But it's something that I think
is, is really important because
I don't think that people realize
how much they're being misled.
Lindsay: Yeah.
I'm torn a little bit on
sometimes how it's done.
I
Dr. Allan: The debunking itself.
Yeah.
Lindsay: I really
appreciate how you do it.
You usually keep it comical light.
I'm not a huge fan of inciting a ton
of anger and hate on the internet.
I think it already exists out there.
Dr. Allan: I think that debunking
itself is gonna incite anger and
hate regardless of how you do it.
The reason that, that I like to do the
humor in it is because it's the only way
that I can get through it day to day.
I mean, it's a lot of, it's a lot of
content creation and like when I start
to think, oh, this would be fun for me
to do, like, I, that actually motivates
me to, to get out there and do it.
And I understand that there are a
lot of people that, that hate there,
there are far more people that like
it, but there are a lot of people
that, that dislike debunking stuff
because they, they feel like it's
essentially attacking the person.
But I think that it's, it's a necessary
evil in some ways, and it's necessary
because there is no overarching body that
actually looks out for the information
that's being put out there, right?
So this directly addresses false and
misleading information, and, and in
the way that at least I do it, there's
at, there's at least accessible and
verifiable peer reviewed research.
It, you know, ends up protecting
the public from health professionals
who may be preying on them from
their fears and misconceptions.
It can prevent no SIBO or
exacerbation of disordered eating.
These things need to be addressed
and unfortunately, as we discussed
earlier, they're gonna have much higher
reach being completely off the wall
and making absolutely insane claims,
like you're gonna improve your
dopamine by 250% with three minutes,
which has never been shown, but
it, it spread like wildfire.
People just take it at face value.
People are more willing to take
outrageous claims at face value than
they are peer reviewed research.
And so in a way, we almost have to
be as engaging and humorous, but
we have to do it in a way that is
ultimately, hopefully for someone
else's benefit instead of for our own.
But to be able to reach people on
social media, you have to play the game.
Lindsay: See, I hate that though.
This is actually a really good
conversation right now because I,
I feel this need, I so much when
I see these things out there that
I'm like, this is ridiculous.
And I get tons of people messaging me
saying, have you seen this exercise
or have you seen this diet method?
Or have you seen this claim?
And I, and I end up in my, like
with my clients or my app user
spending so much time debunking.
But I'm hesitant because I, I don't
want, just like what you said,
I don't want to attack a person.
I don't wanna shame a person, but I,
I am like struggling right now with
this, but, we need to address the
ideas that are being perpetuated.
And like you said, it's not just
like this idea is in and of itself is
inaccurate, it's what are the indirect
effects it's having or direct on people's
relationship with food, with fitness,
with just overall time management.
Because now they think that they need
to throw in some new modality into
what's already working and what's
already giving them these same benefits.
But they don't know that.
And I'm, I find myself really struggling.
How do I show up having integrity and
acting in a way that I believe is in
line with my own principles that I like
to follow, but at the same time, how do
I show up for other people to say no.
I know Huberman is a really nice person,
but a lot of the people he has on his
show is spreading such wild information.
I believe it's hurting
rather than helping.
And it's like, how do I, I don't know.
What are your thoughts on that?
Because I, I
Dr. Allan: you You wanna be
able to sleep at night is
essentially what you're saying.
Lindsay: Yeah.
I
Dr. Allan: Af after putting out content.
Right.
Um, you know, it, it's, it's difficult
and these people that we're debunking,
they don't seem to have any qualms
with spreading bad information.
And so unfortunately you
are, you're dealing with
a situation of how can
you actually help people.
And so you need to find
that balance for you.
And, and that balance is gonna
be different for every person.
And not everybody's going to
agree with the way that you do it.
I can tell you that when I would
put out stuff and say, Hey,
this is a controversial topic.
Here's the research.
People don't really seem to care.
Now when you're addressing someone
else's claim, then all of a sudden
they've got a lot of questions because
it's almost like, it's almost like, hey,
they wanna be part of that discussion.
So it works significantly better
than just putting out information.
And I tried for years with just
putting out blanket information,
Hey, this is, this is what it is.
And, and it just, it doesn't seem to work.
Ultimately what I had to ask
myself is when I'm debunking this
person, do I feel like they are
smart enough to actually know what
they're saying is probably wrong.
And in, in 99% of the cases, the
people that I debunk, I'm like,
they know what they're saying is
Lindsay: wrong.
Yeah.
Dr. Allan: and they're doing it
because they want to become famous
or they want more money and they
literally don't care what's happened
to the people that they're hurting.
And I think that when you make a
lot of money from putting something
out, I think that you can convince
yourself of a lot of things.
But maybe if you finally get
challenged, you start to acknowledge
or at least get a little bit more
concerned about making brazen claims.
And so maybe challenging some of
these people is the right way to help
ultimately down the line thousands
and thousands of more people by
making them hold some accountability
with the platforms that they have.
Because right now there's no
accountability to these large podcasts
and, and social media platforms.
There's none.
There's none.
And, and the biggest problem is
then who's gonna police this?
And it's gotta be one people that know
how to give the right information.
So it's gotta be somebody
that is educated on the topic.
Then you need to somehow
be able to reach people.
So like you said, they stop wasting
their time on the small rocks to
fill the basket, and they actually
pay attention to the large rocks.
Because right now all we're doing
is paying attention to small rocks
on social media, extended fasts,
uh, antinutrients, menstrual phase
training, cold water, cleansing,
toxins, seed oils, and corn syrup.
I mean, all of these things have
been so massively blown out of
proportion or misrepresented.
And, and how do you,
how do you address this?
I mean, and every time we come up
with a debunking video, you see
people arguing the opposite stance.
And so clearly a lot of
damage has been done.
And like I said, you have to find that
balance with what you're comfortable with.
I actually feel less bad about
debunking a doctor than I do
about debunking somebody else.
Because in the back of my mind I'm
like, you have the education to know
that what you're saying is wrong.
And yet you are either choosing to
ignore the information or you are
actively pushing the wrong information.
And so is the direct
debunking method, correct.
It's not correct for everybody.
Does it work?
It works.
Does it help people?
It helps a lot of people.
It's difficult to 100% justify showing
up someone else's video and saying,
this is a hundred percent wrong, even
when it is a hundred percent wrong.
And it's difficult to do that because,
you know, in a way there's, there's going
to be people that always disagree with
that, but does it do more harm than good?
I mean, if you're giving the
right information, I think
it does a lot more good.
Lindsay: Hmm,
Dr. Allan: it's just something
to consider and, and does that
make it the right move for you?
Maybe, maybe not.
And it's not the right move for everybody.
Lindsay: hmm.
No, I love that.
I love hearing that.
We're gonna finish with one other topic.
We're gonna kind of shift gears, well,
not really, but you talked about doctors.
Now I wanna talk about a different
population, and that's just like
the people with the good stories.
There's always somebody with a really good
story, and that's how they get big and
sell themselves, and they do it on TikTok
and Instagram and all that good stuff.
They, they, they share, personal stories
of how doing, like you said, just getting
in cold water every morning and they
have this big, huge story around it.
That's why everybody should do it.
People love stories, so it's not
just these doctors that have this
power, it's somebody with a really
good story that has that power.
And tell me your thoughts on this.
I've been thinking a lot
about this lately, about these
stories that people tell.
They always tell these stories
to prove that they're right.
And I'm like, but do you know what?
I have kids and I listen to their, the
whole, correlation isn't causation.
I listen to my kids making
correlations and I'm just like,
oh my gosh, you're horrible.
Dr. Allan: Yeah, I mean the, the
Lindsay: horrible at this.
Dr. Allan: the story aspect is
even more influential than, than
anything else because people
want an emotional connection.
Lindsay: Yes.
Dr. Allan: connections
really make a big difference.
That's actually why the debunking
tends to work, because people
love that emotional, it, it raises
Lindsay: emotion.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Allan: so, and so you can
use that for good or evil.
The problem is being an
evidence-based person.
I hate that moniker,
Lindsay: term just like has loft.
Its,
Dr. Allan: it's so
subverted at this point.
But with as much citations as I dump in
Lindsay: There you go.
Dr. Allan: I think, I think I can
put it at least sometimes, people are
gonna be so angry when they hear this.
People don't know anything
about their bodies.
You are not, you.
don't know anything.
You don't know anything about your body.
It works for me.
You don't know that.
You just, you don't.
And and it's funny because if you look
at any of the placebo research out
there, I mean, it, it proves over and
over and over again that people don't
know anything about their bodies.
You don't know what works.
What does work?
Expectation effects work.
What does work is the base
things that we're all pushing.
Let, let me give you an example.
Um, fasting.
I fasted for three straight
days and I lost a lot of weight.
Therefore, in my experience,
fasting is the best thing ever.
And fasting works.
Okay.
So let's look at the research
when we compare a fast to an iso
caloric continuous standard diet.
Zero difference
Lindsay: mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: In controlled situations
where a person has been sequestered.
They feed them the food,
they monitor what they eat.
No difference.
No difference in body comp.
No dis difference in cardiometabolic
Risk factors, no difference in
blood lipids, no difference in
autophagy, no difference in cancer
risk or susceptibility.
But there is a risk to muscle loss
when you're doing these extended fast.
So there is a negative to extended
fasting, but you'll hear people
talk about all the time, well,
fasting really works for me.
Well, okay, well let's think
about what's happening here.
Well, you've stopped eating,
which means your muscle
glycogen stores are gonna drop.
There goes a bunch of weight,
there's no food in your system.
There goes a bunch of weight.
Your body's flushing out water
because there's no gradient.
There are less electrolytes in your body.
There are less carbs in your body.
So there's not anything to pull water into
the musculature or into other spots of the
body where, where, uh, glucose sits and,
um, all that weighs a significant amount.
And so dropping five or six pounds
in three days, well, yeah, uh, but
maybe half a pound of it, a quarter
of a pound of it's fat, and then the
rest is muscle, glycogen and water.
But for everybody else, they're
like, well, I just lost a ton
of weight, therefore this works.
You can continue that out for, for longer
periods of time or higher frequency,
and you're gonna continue losing weight.
But why?
It's because we know that
that calorie deficit works.
And that's what that, that research
between the continuous dieting and,
and the extended fast tells us the
continuous diet works in the same manner.
It may take a little bit longer,
but it takes a little bit longer
and you retain your performance,
you retain that lean muscle.
That's much harder to get
than, than losing fat is.
You don't have some of these other
risks of micronutrient deficiencies
that come with it, but these people
that have the experience of, well, I
fasted and, and I lost a lot of weight.
Well, yes, but you don't
really know what you lost.
You're assuming that you lost body
fat and you, you looked in the mirror
and you look a lot better because
you lost a lot of water weight.
So you look more shredded than
ever before because you're dry.
But then you start eating carbs
again, and you start drinking
water again, and then you blow up.
And you know, there's a lot of
people that are saying, well, no,
you know, I continued fasting and it
kept going down and down and down.
Yes.
And then you lost more and more
and more lean muscle, which made
the, the weight loss go faster.
So there's a lot of negatives
that people don't look at.
And so these, these experiences
are clouded by what we want to see
in a lot of, a lot of instances.
And, you know, going back to the, to
the icing, because you, you talked
about how icing is something that people
say, I do this and I feel amazing.
Okay, well we know that,
a, you're gonna get a, uh, a short-term
boost of your sympathetic nervous
system when you jump in ice, I mean,
you get the same thing when you're
scared or when you run or when you
listen to, to happy music, you get a
boost and you feel, you feel great.
On top of that, if you believe that
this is something that really works,
expectation effects kick in, you
placebo yourself, and it's amazing
what we can convince ourselves of.
And so, are these stories reputable?
No.
They're, they're the farthest
thing from reputable.
What control did they have?
Did they compare it to a situation where
they did, you know, for a fasting person,
I fasted and I lost this much weight.
Okay.
Well, did you compare that to a,
an isocaloric continuous diet?
How much weight did you lose there?
Well, I didn't do that.
Okay.
Well, did you get a DEXA scan
to see how much muscle you lost
versus how much fat you lost?
Well, I didn't do that either.
Okay.
Well, what happened to your
performance during this period?
Well, I didn't watch that.
So you don't really know what happened.
I guess not.
Okay.
There's so much about all of
this that's, so you're just
taking a, a person's word for it.
And, and, you know, for the, for this
is putting it really bluntly, but it's
essentially like saying, trust me, bro,
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: happened.
But when you say, trust me, bro,
it doesn't sound as convincing
as, look at how I changed my life.
And I, you know, I, I gave my sense, you
know, you, you reword this differently
to be very emotionally motivational.
And I'm not saying that anecdote
doesn't have value because
anecdote does have value, but
anecdote does have value when we don't
have controlled research to guide our
thoughts on a particular topic, when
we have controlled research that has
been repeated ad nauseum and shows
things like a continuous isocaloric
diet is the same or better than fasting.
That suggests to us that maybe the
benefits we think that we're getting
from fasting are largely based on
the calorie deficit itself, and
maybe we're not getting as many
benefits as we thought we were.
Lindsay: mm-Hmm.
Dr. Allan: If there is an absence of
information in the research, then anecdote
probably has a little bit more sway and it
has more sway because the, even if it is
placebo, that could give us some benefits.
But if we have distinct indications
that there are negatives to a practice
that we're doing, whether it's eating
full carnivore where we can say,
there's a lot of research showing
that fruits and veggies have a ton
of health benefits, particularly
long term, are you gonna lose fat?
Are you gonna lose weight
really quickly on carnivore?
Yeah.
The same reason that
you lost it for fasting.
You stop eating carbs, your
muscle glycogen is tanked.
Your, you know, all these other
things happen with vegans.
Well, well if you look at our research,
you showed that cardiovascular health
is much better and, and epidemiological
studies and an associative data then
eating meat?
Well, yeah.
'cause fruits and veggies are good.
That doesn't mean that meats meat's bad.
It means when you take your
research and you compare it to a
McDonald's diet, yeah, your veggies
are better than a McDonald's diet.
But when you actually look at the legit
research that compares a smart omnivore
diet, it's better than both of those.
But that doesn't make a Netflix
documentary because people don't want
to see that they can eat chicken and
fruits and veggies and whole grains.
They want to see what's the trick
that I haven't tried that will give me
immediate, dramatic results, even if it
isn't sustainable or even if it isn't
the right thing for health long term.
But those things kind of go out the
window because we want that feeling
of being special and knowing a
trick and being emotionally involved
or, or part of a group that knows
something that other people don't.
And so your idea of this touch on
an emotional aspect is extremely
powerful, extremely relevant,
and extremely unreliable.
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
It's true.
And we, it, it, but it, it, I'm so
glad you're saying this because this is
something that over the past few days
I've been thinking so much about and I, I
had somebody tell me a story of why they
believed they hadn't had any injuries.
But they're like, well, I was doing this
one workout by this other influencer, and
then I changed to another influencer's
workout and they had me stretching.
And because I was stretching, I
didn't have injuries for five years.
And, and I'm like, but what else changed?
One the way you were lifting with
the former one and the exercise
selection of now this new one
were completely different, but did
we take that into consideration?
No.
So we weren't doing these
weird frog pumps anymore.
Now we were going through
movements that were working in
the extreme more in and of itself.
Those are showing to increase
range of motion for movements to,
well, I don't want to blow up any
correlation between injury prevention.
'cause really the only direct
correlation that we're seeing,
and correct me if, if you've seen
something else, is, is really sleep.
Like that is the main one.
Dr. Allan: So I, I've done
in-depth dives on this,
I was actually laughing about this because
it's a wonderful example and it's a
wonderful example because if you look at
every single systemic review on stretching
there is, it doesn't reduce injury risk.
It
Lindsay: Thank you.
Thank you.
Dr. Allan: reduce injury risk.
And I have, I have had so many people
get super angry at me because I'm not
saying stretching can have some value
and that warming up doesn't have value.
Warming up is fine, warming up is fine.
It doesn't need to be stretching.
Um, you could do dynamic stretches, you
could do just the weight that you're
gonna lift, the, the movement that you're
gonna do, but lighter and then progress
up stretching does not reduce injury risk.
The number one thing that does reduce
injury risk and stretching it, it might
have a very small effect, but it's so
small, it's statistically insignificant.
The number one things that reduce
injury, risk, weight, training,
sleep, the way that you're feeling
mentally and emotionally at the time.
And it's not even form, form
to an extent is important, but
perfect form is a myth first off.
But you don't need perfect
form to get everything that
you ever want out of fitness.
You just need adequate form.
So as long as you're not like
completely doing, you know, asinine
things, you're probably fine.
Now the, the constant dynamic movements
like a hundred box jumps in a row.
Yeah.
Dynamic movements have
a very high injury risk.
That's why team sports constant cutting
back and forth, forth, you know, the,
Lindsay: But isn't it because of the
level of fatigue that's being incr, like
Dr. Allan: neuromuscular fatigue.
Um, and, and there's just a risk
from repetitive dynamic movements
can increase injury risk, which is
why bodybuilding is the, the least
dangerous thing of all time, because it's
Lindsay: less so than
yoga when I read that
Dr. Allan: know if I've seen, I don't,
I don't, I'm not aware of that data.
I know that compared to like team sports,
team sports are like 15 times more likely
to give you an injury than bodybuilding
Lindsay: Mm-Hmm.
Running is more
likely,
Dr. Allan: yes.
Um, so, so yeah, there's a ton
of things that are far more
important than stretching.
I mean, sleep is a, is a significant one.
It's, it's a very significant one for
injury risk because if you're not mentally
there during a lift and you get under
load and, and you know, you mis groove.
Now that is a little bit of a, of a
form issue, but it's more because of
the fact that you mentally aren't there.
And that's one of the reasons that
emotional status can play into injury
risk because you're mentally not
there and not, not really paying
attention to what you're doing.
But weight training is the
number one thing that you
can do to reduce injury risk.
Bar none, and it's not even close.
Lindsay: I love that you brought up form.
I have a live in like one minute, but
I just wanna touch on this one because
I am one that people are like, Lindsay,
but you say you have to have good form.
And I say, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I say that if you are trying to
work a muscle, then we probably
want to stay within the range that
that muscle can contract, contract
and contribute to the movement.
But going a little bit outside of that
range, as long as, and this is, this
is kind of what we're seeing now, is
as long as you have, progressively your
body has worked up to that weight, you're
not, you know, doing squats with minimal
range, and then all of a sudden with the
same amount of weight, you're going down
and doing like, butt winking, squats.
Squats.
And then you're like, see, I
injured myself because of the butt.
Wait.
No, no, no.
You, you are now increasing
your range of motion at a weight
that you hadn't built up to.
Dr. Allan: Your body is very adept
at, um, being able to adjust to
stressors that you put on it.
But you have to progress
up in that spinal flexion.
When deadlifting, one of the best
deadlifters of all time, has a lot
of spinal flexion and he does not get
injured, um, butt wink is really not
that big of a deal for 99% of people, you
know, all these things, they don't matter
as long as you've progressed up slowly.
The people that get injured are like
you say, they all of a sudden do an
what's essentially a different lift.
If you're
Lindsay: Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Allan: know, 75 degrees
to like 180 degree squat, then
you've created a different lift.
If you are going from 225 pounds
to 315 pounds and you've only ever
lifted 235, you're gonna get injured.
And that's why you see some of these
injury rates in, in competitive strong
men and competitive CrossFitters.
Not that the sports themselves
are inherently wrong, it's
that these are people that are
challenging their boundaries.
And when you go outside of your
boundaries, yeah, you're gonna
be at a much higher rate of risk.
So if you don't progress things up
slowly and gradually, you're going
to greatly increase your injury risk.
Lindsay: Hmm.
Love it.
Okay, we're gonna have to end with that.
Thank you so much for coming on.
I'm gonna have you on here
in the near future again.
We can continue to talk
about all the good things.
I feel like we're just getting started.
Dr. Allan: There's a lot to
talk about, but thank you so
much for having me, Lindsay.
Thank you everybody for listening
and if you want to reach out at
any time, um, certainly send me a
message on Instagram and I'm happy
to answer any questions people
Lindsay: Oh, I, I'll also put in the show
notes where to find you on Instagram.
Do you do one-on-one Coaching?
How,
Dr. Allan: Yeah, I, I do all exclusively
online coaching, and you can look up
any information at mauiathletics.com.
Lindsay: Okay.
We'll include a link to your site as well.
Thank you so much.
You've been, you've been amazing.
I've loved having you on.
Dr. Allan: All right.
Thank you, Lindsay.
I appreciate it.
Lindsay: okay.
We'll talk to you later.
Dr. Allan: care.