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Welcome to "Visionary Voices" the podcast where we dive into the minds of business owners, founders, executives, and everyone in between.
Each episode brings you face-to-face with the leading lights of industry and innovation.
Join us as we uncover the stories behind the success and the lessons learned along the way.
Whether you're climbing the corporate ladder or just starting your business journey, these are the conversations you need to hear - packed with visionary voices and insights.
Let's begin.
So I guess we could say for you, you it's about giving giving back first as you mentioned,
right?
It's the law of reciprocity.
You need to have some inputs first before you can make that ask for lot of people.
And I completely agree, you know, coming from, I think the marketing world and I've said
this on multiple podcasts now, but it's so true is everyone's become very transactional in
the way they are.
All they want to do is either just sell all the time and just always have these asks from
everyone else, but rarely will they go out and actually do the thing first, you know, give
back.
And then you can make the arse.
But first you need to do that first.
That's the biggest thing for sure.
So talking about the incubator as well.
I mean, I've heard a couple people go through the incubator process.
So how is that for you?
And how has that really shaped your business journey overall?
And is that something you would recommend for people starting out in business?
So 100 % I would definitely recommend being in an incubator.
So I was in what was called a state certified incubator.
So in addition to having access to a multi-million dollar facility, printers, desks,
office space, everything, we had mentors, had coaches on site, and then they would host
networking events.
And they also, let's see, we were charged a dollar a square foot in rent.
And we got tax breaks on top of that for several years because of it.
So I think if you haven't started a business before,
you definitely should go to an incubator just because when you flounder, when you don't
know what to go, where to go, it's like you can just raise that white flag and people are
right there to help you.
The community that I was in, there was actually two statewide incubators, which was a
really rare thing.
And I chose to go to the one at the VOTEC, the vocational school.
And I'm glad I made that decision.
It was at the vocational school versus at the university because the vocational school was
just a little bit more hands on, a little bit more about those soft skills.
And at the university, was more what
it was almost more what can you do for us what classes could you teach how could you
invest in our students so I would say definitely do that interview and get to know them
but go for it because of what it offered me I mean I started my business with like I think
a $200 overhead a month and went to $400 a month in overhead by the time I left the
incubator and that was with my own private office
Wow, wow.
So it's definitely worth doing, think.
And for me, I mean, I remember when I started business, initially I was like, I just want
to make a bit of money on the side and make something alongside the job.
But then I joined a business group and then now seeing people do some really big numbers
in terms of just revenue, but also the impact they were having.
And I was like, wow, like this is actually possible.
And I think that's the other thing you get from these types of groups and incubators and
everything is seeing what's actually possible out there.
Right, so I also have another belief, which is kind of odd, but I believe that you should
celebrate other successes.
And so by being in that incubator, we got to celebrate everybody else's success, and that
just creates that positivity and that energy.
And I remember having a terrible day one day, just feeling like I was an absolute failure,
and an acquaintance, not even a friend, had this huge success, and I heard about it, and I
went home, and I actually had a dance party with my dogs, and we celebrated that friend's
success, and it just changed my energy.
my mindset, everything like this just instantly turned around.
So it's that combination of celebrating others, believing in others, and giving back that
just I think really makes you successful and that incubator cultivates that environment.
Yeah, no, again, I love that because entrepreneurship can be a lonely road, right?
I mean, I remember the first few months when I was doing it, or really the first year, it
was just me in this room I was renting and had a desk, had a bed, and that's what it was.
I didn't speak to anyone during the day.
I was just sat at my desk all day.
And it's very tough.
It's tough to gain momentum when you're just in that type of environment.
So I agree.
think mastering your environment can really help you move things forward for sure.
So when it comes to the strategies that you use and you teach to nonprofits, what does
that look like and how do you impact them?
So I believe in a very data-driven approach.
A lot of times when you work with nonprofits, they just want to tell the success stories
or what I call the worm fuzzies.
And of course you want to have those because it's some speaking engagements, those are
appropriate.
But what I always teach is that you need to do your presentation that's very data-driven,
that speaks very clearly to what the return on investment is for either the donor or...
the foundation that's going to give you the grant.
And you also need to use the same vocabulary as the audience that you're speaking to.
So in the nonprofit world, right, we have our own jargon and our own, our own.
vocabulary, I would change it.
So if I spoke to businessmen, I really did say the return on investment is you'll see an
increase in jobs, you'll see a decrease in crime and use the terms and phrases that they
were accustomed to so that it was presented in a way that they could easily understand it.
And that's what made the largest impact in my career.
And that's what I teach people to do now is speak in the same language as your audience
and be data driven and use that return on investment because that's what everybody's
interested in, right?
Is what's that ROI?
And people are like, well, if we're a food bank, what's our ROI?
And I'm like, well, that's really simple, right?
Because food is a basic need.
So take it to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
If you meet the first three needs, food is one of those, then people can go to the second
group and they can start finding out who they are.
They can start developing their personality.
They can start looking for a job, right?
You created food security.
And so it's showing that connection and really driving it to economic development and
community development because you've got to just take it outside of what that nonprofit
does, which some nonprofits fight back on.
But I think ultimately that's what we're trying to do is create that sense of community.
How are we all intertwined and how does this affect us all?
Yeah, no, no, I love that.
again, what you said is it's all connected, right?
If you can take care of one set of needs that they can move people up to the next level,
right?
And so you are having that impact, even if you might not see it straight away or like on
paper, but when you really work it out, you are having that wider impact there.
And I love what you said about speaking the same language because in the marketing world,
it's such a big thing because again, when I first started out, I was working predominantly
with dentists.
I'm very much a technical person.
love tech.
love going into all these different things.
When you speak with dentists, majority of them don't speak that language.
And so for me, I was throwing all these words at them and they were just like, what is
going on?
What is this?
And so I think that's a huge lesson really for all businesses to start looking into is how
do you actually speak to your clients or your leads or whatever that looks like you're
advertising because just those small tweaks and small changes can just have a huge impact
in.
know, those conversions or whatever it is that you're aiming for within the business, for
sure.
Agreed, agreed.
And making people laugh.
That's my other thing, is make people laugh.
That always works.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Create that emotion in the conversation.
So I mean, when it comes down to relationships, I know you're really big on having those
authentic relationships.
So how do you drive that within the business and your clients and how does that work?
So we kind of do a different approach.
We do a reach out through LinkedIn and then if people are interested, they meet with me.
And I just have a thing where I'm like, tell me what your problems are, tell me what you
need, and then we'll see if we can solve them.
And I always try to have solutions in that meeting, but I also very much present as myself
and I'm very authentic.
You know, I've had the corner office, I've had to wear the suits to work and that's not
me.
So sometimes in my meetings, one of my dogs is sitting next to me, right?
And so I just, I just roll with that.
If I had one meeting where somebody apologized
because they had to pick up their baby and I'm like, please don't ever apologize.
I'm a parent first.
Get that baby.
We can reschedule.
So it's just very much being true to who I am, being authentic and presenting that from
the very, very beginning.
I've had some people say that I'm too casual.
And maybe I am and that's okay because I'm not going to be the right fit for everybody.
But I think being casual allows walls to come down and I always make sure to, to really
hear people.
And so I practice a lot of active listening and I don't say like they teach you an active
listening to say, this is what I hear you're saying, but I'll repeat back and say, okay,
what I think you said your issue is, is this, this, and this, did I get that right?
And doing that, presenting as myself, being authentic, making people laugh really makes
that change where people are able to respond.
to me and they usually want to end up and work with us, which is good.
Hmm.
I think there's so many golden nuggets there overall.
I mean, it seems like a very obvious concept that people should be doing anyway, but
especially in the business world, it's so easy to put up these fronts and essentially
pretend to be someone who you're not really overall.
And it's very easy to naturally fall into that when you are starting out because you feel
like you've got to create a persona or you've got to create this, that and the other.
But ultimately you need to be true to yourself and authentic to yourself because otherwise
when it comes down to the growth of the business, it's just gonna stall because
ultimately, again, you're not yourself, right?
And so you're gonna feel stresses inside, there's gonna be conflicts.
You're not gonna feel aligned with the mission, the goal of the business because you're
not being authentic to who it is that you are as a person.
And again, I can completely agree to this when I was working in dental and I'm very much a
technical person, there was a lot of conflicts.
again, I was trying to make some money, but when I moved more into the tech space, that's
where I've grown up, let's say.
and start to really enjoy the work that I'm doing.
I think it's such an important thing, which a lot of people do miss for sure.
I think too it comes with age because in my 20s and 30s I wouldn't have had the confidence
to do that and now in my 40s I'm like you know what this is who I am it's okay you know
but also if I could just add to that I'm not afraid to tell people if we're not the right
fit for them and I tell them that I say you know I thank you so much for reaching out I
would love to stay connected we're just not the right fit for you and then I do try to
circle back and find solutions for them so I think that's also something is being very
honest of yes we can help you or no we can't and I think people respect me for that.
Yeah, yeah.
I do really agree with that.
I'm agreeing with everything you're saying because it's also true.
But yeah, again, it goes back to being authentic, right?
And if you can't help someone, don't pretend that you can.
Of course, sometimes in the initial stages, you do need to stretch yourself, right?
So there is that element to it.
But at the same time, if you really can't help someone and they're not going to see the
impact and you know that they're not going to see the impact, then just consult with them
and be like,
best practice would be to actually go to this type of person or refer them out to someone
else who might be a better fit for them.
And ultimately when they do get to maybe the size or whatever that looks like for you,
they'll come back to you and be like, do you know what?
We weren't a fit for you then, but we are now.
Let's start working together and then you can continue.
So yeah, I completely agree.
So when it comes down to writing grants, so as someone not in the nonprofit side of
things, I'm very oblivious to how it will work.
So what's the process there?
right.
Sure, sure.
I...
There's basically there's three steps to writing grants, right?
The first one is identifying, making sure that your goals and mission align with what the
foundation's mission and goals are and that by funding you, the foundation will be able to
live out their mission and achieve their goals.
And then once you do that, you've really got to reach out and build that relationship
because there's so much competition that you could look just like a piece of paper or
people could hear your passion and have heard your voice and hear your story.
So it's that relationship building.
And then when you get to that application, the first thing I tell everybody is only
answer one question at a time.
Only look at one question at a time, right?
It's the same as the short answer question from when we were in college.
So just do one at a time.
You know, do your writing process.
I always tell people take Ernest Timingway's approach just right.
You can go back and edit.
But then I say always make sure you answer that question, that you're data driven and that
you focus on showing the alignment and the need and how that can be met.
And then if you have successes, work those in and show those successes.
Let's say, for example, that you are in after school program in
community A and you want to expand and go to community B, you can still talk about your
successes in community A because you're going to be replicating that.
You just refer to it as a pilot program that you're going to do more of.
I guess you would say a franchise setup, even plug and play that we'll be able to use
similar things and don't be afraid to pivot and adapt.
Once you get that grant application submitted, again, follow up, meet with them, let them
see who you are, invite them to come out and tour your program, really focus on building
that relationship, sharing any reports that you have.
And then if you aren't awarded this year, don't take it personally.
Call them and ask them and say, hey, why wasn't I awarded?
And try again the next year.
But just stay very, very positive as you move forward with that and grant writing.
And understand that nine times out of 10, the reason you weren't awarded is because they
received more grant applications
than the funds that they had.
And so you just got to work on building those relationships and reaching out to your board
of directors, right?
It's great if you as the employee reach out to that foundation, but if you have a board of
directors who will reach out, I don't want to say for you, but with you and show that they
support you through that, that even gives more credibility to the nonprofit.
Right.
think there's a lot, a lot of different information there.
One of the biggest things I took from that though, was the feedback process you mentioned
is okay.
You're going to get told, no, a few times it's going to happen.
They figure out why, you know, what was it that maybe the reason why you didn't get it and
go through that, that feedback and review process.
And I think that can be taken across all different elements of the business as well.
Right.
Of course in the nonprofits for sure.
But when it comes down to marketing sales or whatever that looks like product, go through
that feedback feedback loop.
clients leave, go through that feedback loop, what could you have done better?
Something that I always love to ask my clients are, you know, what points of friction have
you have you had so far?
And I think they get a little bit annoying because I always ask them every every couple of
weeks, you know, what points of friction have you had this week with with the service that
we have?
And ultimately, you can really shape your service and improve your skills when you do ask
those questions.
I think sometimes it can be hard to ask those questions because sometimes we might not
want to hear it or what they have to say and take that criticism but
Great.
we need to understand and have the information so we can make those improvements and make
those changes.
Right, right.
And honestly too, another thing that most people don't know is a lot of foundations
already know who they're going to approve.
So they already have their money allocated.
So it might just be a simple fact of that.
But what I've found is by being open, like for example, 30 minutes before I did this
meeting with you, right?
I had a meeting with a foundation.
I did not write the grant application.
was a previous grant writer and it had been declined.
And I just said, Hey, I'm just curious why we were declined and what's the deal.
And it was like, you're not a good fit for our organization.
And I initially I said, my gosh, that wasn't noted.
Thank you so much for letting me know that.
And I respected that and I ended the call.
So it's also about respecting that feedback, understanding.
But because I was so respectful, they said, we've made a special note when we change our
funding, we will personally reach out with an invitation to you to apply for this
nonprofit.
So it's being respectful.
It's understanding.
It's putting yourself out there.
I've had other meetings where we are in a good fit, but thank you so much for reaching out
and asking and humbling yourself.
Go reach out to this foundation and this foundation.
we've already let them know you're gonna call.
So it's just, I look at it as a learning and a growing.
You know, I've been doing this 20 years and I wake up every day and it's like, what can I
learn today?
And I get excited about it and I don't ever consider myself a subject matter expert, which
I realize might sound weird, but I think I can always learn and evolve and do better.
And so when you approach meetings and I'll say that, I'm like, hey, I just wanna know what
I can do better.
That changes the whole tone and they tell you everything and you can do better.
Yeah.
I mean, it shows you're being honest and authentic as we said before.
And people love that.
People do love that.
And they will open up and tell you what you need to hear to grow as a person, as a company
as well.
So yeah, definitely ask those difficult questions because the information you get is just
invaluable overall.
I mean, when it comes to teaching these different techniques and consulting and
everything, how does that work from a service delivery point of view?
Because
Some of these things sometimes you can tell people and they might not action it.
So how have you found, you know, really making the message resonate with these nonprofit
organizations?
I try to show them the impact, right?
Instead of just asking them to make the change, I show them what that change will
accomplish for them, how that will help them achieve their goals.
And lately I've been doing most of my teaching one-on-one, which I find to be the most
effective because I can really pivot and adapt.
to use their language, right, to make them see what is needed, but to really get at the
heart of the matter and understand what's going on.
And I also, I keep saying this, I really make it a point to hear and to listen, but
through that, that's what really lets you know, because so often people will contact me
and they'll say like, we don't understand why our grants aren't being funded, can you tell
us why?
But that's not really the question that they need to ask, right?
Or that's not really what they need to do.
And so with a little bit of digging, a little bit of asking, understanding, then I can
say, you know what?
you need to work on an annual report.
Let's talk about an annual report.
And if you have that, that showcases all of your successes for the past year, that we can
sit with an introduction letter, I think that's gonna make your grant application start
being approved.
And so it's just understanding those little things and giving them different tools that
they can use.
I also have honestly, probably hundreds of templates that I've developed over the years.
And so I always also try to give a template after the call.
So that way it's not...
And I always give a recap.
I always send an email afterwards and I'm like, here's what we talked about.
Here's what I think you can do differently.
And oh, by the way, here's some templates that you can use if you want to.
And I always stress that it's if you want, but these templates will give you a head start
and show you which way to go.
And I think by giving people those tools, that's what makes them more successful and want
to make those changes.
Because it's not me going, you didn't write that grant well, you need to do X, Y, and Z.
It's like, let me show you and let me show you what it could look like and let me give you
a template to use.
I love the mixture of that one-on-one style as well as you've got a bunch of these assets
that you can pick the ones that are going to be relevant to them based on the conversation
you had and then give that to them as well.
you kind of having the, let's say the unscalable, right?
You can't do one-on-ones every single day, but you're mixing that with something that is
very scalable from the business point of view with the, with a bunch of assets that you
have to really help them get the results that they're looking for.
So, so yeah, I think that's a, that's a very effective way of getting the message across
and reaffirming to them that this is.
the direction they need to go into, rather than just saying, okay, this is wrong, this is
wrong, do this, do this.
Because ultimately people don't learn from that type of teaching, let's say.
Yeah, you're so right.
I'm a guide.
That's why I tell people I'm just your guide so you can take it or leave it.
And that seems to really help to make them listen a little bit more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I guess looking forward in terms of the business side of things, where do you foresee
the business going over the next five years?
And what are some of the biggest, guess, market shifts that you're considering as well?
Cause I know things like AI and automation, all these different things are going to affect
a bunch of industries.
So, so what's your outlook on that?
So I think that AI will definitely affect grant writing, but I think people are still
gonna need that mentor and that person to add that personal touch.
So I think he's gonna be taking our services to the next level where we show that personal
touch that we can add.
Where when you hire us to do grant writing for you, we also offer a lot of consulting
services.
We'll speak to your board, we'll help educate your board, we'll provide you with templates
and resources.
And I think it's all those extras that are gonna set us apart.
What I see with the shift,
with the coming presidential election, new president, I try not to speak in politics, I
don't believe in that.
we are definitely going to see some changes in the nonprofit world because when he was
president prior, we saw shifts.
So just based on facts.
And what we saw was that individual donors went down the amount of donations people were
getting.
And so what I think we need to talk to nonprofits about and help them see are creating
alternative sources of revenue and resources for revenue and helping them align with their
mission and focusing on what they do.
instead of offering everything, just focus on your mission.
It's going to be creating key partnerships and collaborations
showing nonprofits how to work together and stopping that silo effect.
So I think it's gonna be a lot of mediation, getting them to work together, perhaps even
merging, because I honestly do think sometimes there are too many nonprofits, so it's how
can we help them reduce their administrative and be more effective.
So I think those are the shifts that we're gonna see as far as a business.
I love working one-on-one with the clients we have.
I'm really looking forward and trying to figure out a way to create a master group where I
can mentor and work with more nonprofits.
And I would love to take it to even.
Speaking and presenting because I think because I have such a strong background and I
started literally at bottom of nonprofits and worked my way up to CEO I can share a lot of
personal insights which I can tell you that's what's made a difference with a lot of the
clients that we have is rather than approaching the grants as a grant writer I approached
them as a former CEO and I will tell them I'll say while this grant looks like a great fit
You need to understand that you're gonna need to have a person that works part-time just
managing this grant You're gonna have this report and this report in this
report do?
Is that something you can handle?
And so I'm very honest and transparent about that.
I have one client who looks like they'd be a great fit for state and federal, but they
don't have the experience with managing it.
So I'm like, let's work a little bit more and get you more used to the private foundations
and then move them up.
So I think it's because I have that working knowledge and I'm coming at it from a
different angle that that's also what makes it unique because I've been that leader and
had to manage those teams.
Mm, no, I love the I love the outlook then the way you can analyze what's potential on the
horizon.
Because again, that's something that a lot of people might not do and sit down and
actually think about for a little bit for their business and for themselves.
But I agree, you know, having that CEO mindset, let's say, when you're looking at these
grants, you're looking at these these documents, you're going to see it in a different
lens versus someone who hasn't had that experience before.
So the wealth of information there is going to be so so important.
I mean, when it comes down to AI and grant writing, because I'm assuming people are going
to start really leveraging AI to just be sending out as many grants as they can.
Like, have you seen that impact the work that you're doing or some of the clients that
you've had as well?
So I think the biggest challenge with AI, let me just say I am a huge fan of AI and I
think we just need to learn to use it appropriately.
I love to use it for research and it'll create great summaries of what a foundation is
looking for.
So mean use it, it's a powerful tool.
The problem is the answers that it generates can be very generalized.
They don't have the statistics or data necessarily of what you do.
It also can sound very dry.
It doesn't have its own voice.
So maybe use that to help create an outline for the questions,
and go back in and say these were the successes, this is the data and give it that voice
so that you do have a voice when you write.
But don't be afraid of it either.
And I think it's gonna take longer for the nonprofit world to adjust to AI and thinking
about it simply because the nonprofit world is usually about 20 years behind the
for-profit world and it's harder to make, it's harder to get true nonprofits to really
make those changes.
I worked with one nonprofit that just got their first computer yesterday.
So yeah, she's doing everything off her phone.
But there's a lot of,
old thoughts and there's a lot of old beliefs and it takes a long time for the non-profit
world to catch up.
So like when you heard me talk about collaborations and partnerships, that's a battle that
I've literally been fighting since like 2012 and it's still a huge issue.
So it's going to be changing that perspective and getting them to understand the power
that AI has and what it could give them but also how to use it appropriately.
And honestly too, you can put out as many grant applications as you want.
If it's not a fit, it's not a good fit.
And it's going to be a waste of your resources.
And I'm not sure how long your board of directors would put up with that.
So it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out, you know?
Yeah, I mean, from what I'm hearing is, you know, you can definitely use it for the
efficiency side of things, know, creating the get the ball rolling.
But when it comes down to actually putting soul into the work, let's say, is that has come
from you.
And that's the way you're going to actually probably differentiate yourself because the
way I see it, you know, lot of companies, will lean heavily, maybe a little bit too much
into AI and automation and lose the soul or the voice of the company, say.
And so with someone who is putting that soul or that voice into it,
you can then stand out from all these other grant applications or other businesses or
whatever it is for yourself.
And don't forget that it's part of its relationship building too and AI can't build
relationships.
So yeah.
that.
Exactly that.
mean, again, like it can get, it can maybe get the ball rolling a little bit, right.
To help you with outreach or whatever it's going to look like.
But ultimately you're not going to have the AI rep on the, on the zoom call speaking to
the client to really learn and understand them.
It's just where we're at right now.
It's just not, not quite the way it is.
So yeah, I completely agree.
So one of the, the final questions we always ask people on this, on this podcast is if you
can go back to your 18 year old self.
and you can only take three things with you, whether it's business, philosophy, mindset,
what would those three things be and why would it be those three things?
three things back to my 18 year old self.
Confidence.
belief and losing my fear of failure.
When I was growing up, I grew up in a family that you had to be perfect all the time and
you weren't allowed to fail and you had to be top of your class and if you weren't, you
failed.
And so I lacked a lot of confidence and a lot of belief in myself because of that and I
felt like an imposter for a long time.
So if I could just tell my 18 year old self, like, it's going to be okay, you can do this.
I think I would have relaxed into life a lot easier and I would have been more authentic
in who I was, but I had to lose that fear of failure.
I had to learn to say, what's the worst that's going to happen?
Okay, I can live with that.
So I think it's confidence believing in myself and that fear of failure, lack of fear of
failure.
And I think I would have conquered the world.
Yeah, I think that fear of failure is such a big one.
It's something that holds a lot of people back if they are thinking of maybe starting the
business or starting a new job or moving into different areas or industries or whatever,
because it can really paralyze you.
And you've got to power through it.
Otherwise, it's going to hold you down and you get to a point where you look back and
like, if only I did this sooner, what was holding me back back then?
Because I think about that a lot when I'm reflecting over the last few years is there was
certain points where
I was just paralysed with fear and I didn't launch what I was gonna launch or didn't
create what I wanted to create.
And then I've done it now and I'm like, if only I did it two years before, it would have
been two years further along.
So I think that's such a big one for sure, trying to overcome it.
I mean, for yourself, what were some of the strategies or methods you've used to help you
overcome it?
Was it just honestly just saying, do you know what, let me just try it out and see what
works, what's the worst that's gonna happen?
Is that the mindset that you had for it?
So I'm a big reader and I love to read about our founding fathers and I also love to read
about other entrepreneurs.
And so when I realized how often they failed and their mindset of just getting up and
brushing themselves off, I realized if they could do it, I could do it.
And so it was reading those stories, finding that belief.
And then it was, was, what is the worst that's going to happen?
And I think at that point too, I was in my first CEO position and I failed a couple of
times and I realized the failure wasn't that bad that I could handle it.
And so.
I think it was failing reading other stories and understanding I had to keep going was a
mom with a child, right?
That's also a great motivator is your children They'll keep you moving forward and then I
realized when I was looking at my daughter that I could share my failures in front of her
be very transparent and honest and that she would lose her fear of failure and we could do
it as a learning moment and almost do it together and that's how I tackled it and I would
literally sit her down and be like so I tried this and it failed let's talk about what I
did wrong and what I could have done better and that's literally
how I've raised her since she was...
Hmm, I think that's such a healthy way to look at, let's say failure, is just think down
being honest.
I failed today.
It is what it is.
What can I learn from it?
And let's move on from it.
I think that's such a healthy, healthy way.
And as you said, at the very end, not making it twice.
I think that's the other big thing is yes.
Yeah.
Reflexing it, make sure, know, whatever, but just try not to do it again.
Right.
You don't want to be reflecting on the same, same lesson that you learned, you know, a
couple of years prior.
So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
So
Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of visionary voices.
I've loved this conversation.
Yes, of course, of course.
Thank you so much.