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Up Your Average is the “no nonsense” podcast made for interesting people who think differently. Learn to navigate your life with unconventional wisdom by tuning in to Keith Tyner and Doug Shrieve every week.
The minute when you feel your shoulders getting tight, either way, whether it's with your children or with your parents, depending on which one's frustrated, to step back and say, you know, they're they're only doing this because they care, and I'm just gonna smile right now and breathe in and get that worked up about it because otherwise, if you fight each other, you're just gonna miss some sweet times in life.
Caleb:Welcome to the Up Your Average podcast, where Keith and Doug give no nonsense advice to level up your life. So buckle up and listen closely to Up Your Average.
Keith:Good morning, Doug.
Doug:You can't see it from this angle, but Caleb hooked us up with these really sweet microphones. And I hope I hope the sound is just amazing to your eardrums today as you're driving down the road or you're watching on Gimbal Financial's YouTube page.
Keith:Man, I jumped into a bright blue shirt to kinda accentuate how cool the sound is gonna be today. So I just wanted the whole experience to jump off the page for everybody. I like it. Yeah. I I wanna give a shout out to Leah DeBond.
Keith:We've done some interviews the last few weeks, and just wanted her to know think she did a home run of a job. That was a good It really was. We had with her. And this week, I I think with all the things going on in the world, I think I wanted to talk about them.
Doug:Who's them?
Keith:Them. That's what we're gonna get into. It's always them. It's never me. Right?
Keith:That's that's what I wanted to jump in and talk a little bit about. And it's been really on my mind this week. I I think it's a part of financial planning that doesn't get a lot of attention, I don't think. And I see it more and more the longer I'm in this bracket. And, yeah, I just think about it.
Keith:There there's I think it was a year or so ago I was asked to make some comments at the church congregation that we attend. And some reason at the end of it, I just said to the people, gravity is calling your name.
Doug:Okay.
Keith:Ironically Yeah. Gravity calls you towards a grave ultimately is what gravity pulls you towards. And it's it's such a subtle gradual thing that I think kinda you you you've spent some time with Russ Mack. Right? Russ was a fighter pilot in in the younger days, and I got the opportunity to watch him in a simulator where you pull g forces.
Keith:I I think that means gravity force. Right? Is that what g stands for?
Doug:Makes sense to me.
Keith:Yeah. Any of our viewers out there keep us posted on that. But they start they have a little dial is how I envision it where they start putting more gravity on these pilots. And and so there was this was a VHS tape of him doing this all these years ago. And and they would be sitting there.
Keith:You know, they'd be going They're grunting and grunting and doing their things, and then guy on the outside is turning the dial up. And you notice at first their head kinda pulls forward just a little bit if if the gravity is winning. And then then all of a sudden, their head starts going and their shoulders start coming in. And when I think back about that, that's kind of what the aging process does. It does what that G force simulator does, but it does it really over a longer span of time.
Keith:And you notice as you begin to age, people's head goes forward, their shoulders go forward. And so gravity wears on us and it's so gradual that it's not really even noticeable. And so that's where the conversation goes that I wanted to talk about is them. What do you do with them? You know, the gravity is pulling.
Keith:The gravity is creating challenges between the generations, right? Right. The generations can see what's going on. And that's what I what that's what I said next is what are you gonna do with them? And it's really hard to know.
Keith:It's it's a difficult thing because they want to be in charge. I don't know about you guys, but that's been my experience. They want to be in charge. And this is this is the diagram that came to mind for me in this kind of aging process and what are you gonna do with them is if them is right in the middle of this compass, there's the the tension between let them or force them. Right?
Keith:And help them or ignore them. Those things are pulling all the way through it. And I see that having walked through it as the essence of the battle is what are gonna do with them? And so then what I included was we gotta define who is them. And it if we go back to that last one, if the them is the parental unit, and how are we going to help them?
Keith:Do we let them be or do we force them? And on the other hand, the them might be me, the child. What am I going to do with me? Am I going to step back and watch it? And I think that's where the dialogue really picks up in this scenario that's pretty prevalent out there.
Keith:I don't know if you've dealt with that recently with any clients or family members, but there there's a there's a lot of stress involved in this process as gravity takes root.
Doug:One of the things I've picked up just from listening to clients going through this is to acknowledge them for where they're at. And it starts with the person who is more of the caregiver, instead of giving a whole bunch of advice or giving resources just to acknowledge, hey, this this is really tough, and I respect the way you're handling it.
Keith:Yeah. It's it's really challenging because let let's just take both sides of the coin. Okay? Let's take the parents and the caregivers like they're the children. Okay?
Keith:So think think about well, I'm just picking a hypothetical person. Let's just say this person was once a professional basketball player, and now this person's in their late seventies. And I'm kinda shuffling around. I I saw a picture over the weekend of a football player that's not even that old. It was Earl Campbell.
Doug:I don't know who that is.
Keith:Caleb, tell us about, give us some data on Earl Campbell while we're while we're sitting here. Earl Campbell was one of the greatest college football players of all time. He's probably my age, so that tells you how quickly things go. Maybe a little bit older than me, but whatever the sport did, he's now in a wheelchair and not half the man that he probably was. Like, when he was I don't know if he is a Heisman trophy winner or not, but when he was out, everybody knew him, everybody wanted him, and he was vibrant.
Keith:And now he's in a wheelchair. And it just occurred to me that he's one of those men. You know, what are you gonna do with them? And maybe his kids are worrying about that. But if you take the person that's lost their mobility or gravity's got the depth of them and just imagine what are they thinking.
Doug:Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I think just cheering on the person who wants to help them. That's where it starts.
Doug:Because if you can cheer that person on and let that person know that they've got what it takes to do it, then they're gonna get pretty creative to help them to help their loved one to do it differently. Like, why did you do it?
Keith:Well, I think the the for me, the the thing was I probably did it poorly when I did it because I didn't know what I was doing because I I jumped in. If we go back to that this dial this diagram here of let them or force them. It's it's such a tightrope because you can see things happening right before you. And and I think the the fear fear, I think, is what creates the challenge in communication. When I think about this, the most important part of this is communicating with one another, and I don't think the generations do a very nice job of that.
Keith:Yeah. It's because it's awkward, and I think it's because of the gravity of the situation.
Doug:Well, we have expectations that have been built up for decades, or we've had experiences built up for decades. And all of a sudden, there's a shift. And those experiences matter, but there's an there's a new thing happening now, and it requires more than just what you've known in the past.
Keith:It it's real and it's really awkward, you know, because the if it's the patriarch, for example, you're used to them being the one that's strong and takes care of all the challenges. And let's say it's the patriarch that has the challenge. And this isn't funny, but I think it's fun. I think you have to laugh. If you don't laugh and you go through these things, you're just gonna be so stressed about it all.
Keith:But I remember my dad's last Christmas. He had lined up this night not it wasn't Christmas, it was Thanksgiving. He lined up this nice Thanksgiving lunch, and it was at a bougie place that was called the Kennel Club in Evansville. I don't know if you've ever been to a kennel club or not, but that's that's the snooty population when they've got a club for the dogs, you know. And so we're we're all moving around, and and Caleb probably wasn't he probably would have been just maybe six months old at the time.
Keith:And and so we're all moving out of the house through the kitchen, through the garage, to the cars out there. And I'm kidding. I think I must have already had Caleb in the car because I remember being in the driver's seat, and I hear this horrible kumalam. And it was dad doing a face plant on the kitchen floor.
Doug:Oh, man.
Keith:And it goes to this, know, you can't like in that, you can't ignore, so you gotta help. Right? You gotta help. And and it's kind of a helpless situation. He's a large man and he's laying there on the floor.
Keith:We've got a lunch appointment at the kennel club for the whole family. And and so we're trying to get we're trying to get everybody because everybody's just like standing in the kitchen and staring at him, and he's just laying there kind of moaning a little bit. And and so we're trying to get everybody out of the kitchen so we can get people to help. And dad looks up to me and goes, Just go ahead without me. I'll be alright.
Keith:And so if you didn't laugh at the they're like, You're not going be alright, dad. Right? And so that's one of those kind of kickers that kicks this battle into a point in the place. It am I them, child? Am I getting in the way of letting them be?
Keith:Or are they them that I got to take control of this thing? And and it can be really challenging. Like in that situation, I remember being really frustrated because I didn't know what to do. So there's that fear and anxiety. And then I was also frustrated because I'm used to dad being the man and doing the decision, right?
Keith:And he's not making the decision what needs to be done at this point. And so that's what kind of gets in there. There's these concerns I think we have in our head, either as the one that's aging or the one that's the caretaker. Like the concern is, can they live safely? And that's a real temptation to try to drive that for the parent, and they may or may not be ready.
Doug:Yeah. The first one I think about in can they live safely is is driving.
Keith:Right. Right. Because that's
Doug:the one that affects a lot of other people. And it's I cannot imagine having my car keys taken away from me. I hope that I could be able to surrender them myself. I think that's probably what everybody wants. So maybe that's where you start is what would they want?
Doug:And if they can't have what they want, how do you take the baby steps to do it? Right. I mean, you wrote an article on on basically taking the car keys away years ago. And that that's the one that I think of is like, okay, that
Keith:that's the first sign. In this aging process, it's in my head when I was thinking about this conversation, I think it's the computer programmer in me, I was thinking in a flowchart mindset, like, is the aging attacking the physical Keith or is it the cognitive Keith? Because a lot of these decisions, have to be more assertive, I believe, if it's the cognitive thing rather than the physical. The physical, you might be able give the person more room. But if the cognitive skills aren't there, my opinion is you have to be more assertive on the driving one.
Keith:And what sprung that to action for me is the conversation with the sibling was that my mom got in a wreck, and she didn't know she got in a wreck, and she drove home, which in modern language, call that a hit and run. Sorry, if I could go find my mom in jail, right? Like she did a hit and run. She didn't hit a human, she had a car, but she didn't need to be driving. And if she had her cognitive skills, we could at least talk through it.
Keith:Without the cognitive skills, I felt like I had to force that situation because I felt that if mom killed somebody's kid, and I knew that she shouldn't have been driving, I would have felt I don't think I'd have had legal liability, but I would have felt solely she's got liability in that situation. Yeah.
Doug:Well, I mean, if you continue this thought process on the cars, like, can I take care of them? Can I drive them around? So those are the questions that the caretaker is going to be asking themselves before they even speak up. Is it, well, what are we going to do?
Keith:I noticed this week, I was driving through Carmel, and I saw one of the cars that's got all the advertising on it for teaching kids to drive. And I must have been in a light because surely I wasn't reading and driving it at the same time.
Doug:It You were in a light in Carmel?
Keith:Maybe I was. I was in a downabout. I'm trying to think where there would have been. Yeah.
Doug:There's a couple of them still.
Keith:Yeah. And it it said, which I I like the marketing of it, is that they test your driving skills. So the the one that teaches the kid to drive is now gonna test
Doug:That's interesting. Very important
Keith:thing that they should be driving. And and that's probably when we look at that spectrum between helping and ignoring or forcing and letting, you probably wanna you wanna kinda maybe push up in that right hand quadrant between help and force to get somebody to to at least acknowledge that driving things because driving I mean, Caleb's a race car driver and those dudes, man, they move like this, but it requires a certain level of reflexes, right, and strength. That gravity can take that away from you sometimes. And so it's probably worth being kind of at least having a conversation with mom and dad or whoever the one is you're taking care of. And I think even, you know, one of those concerns is, can I take care of that person?
Keith:Like, if you're the caretaker and you're a spouse, that's a difficult decision. I think most spouses that said, you know, until death do us part feel a compulsion to be involved in taking care of them.
Doug:Yeah. Yeah. We we talk to a lot of people who are taking care of their spouses today, and I can think of one of our friends who's just doing such an excellent job of that. And she told me that she's seen new things in their marriage, as she walks through life with her spouse who can't take care of himself. And she's just seeing new new expressions in their marriage that she'd never seen before.
Doug:And she's appreciating them. And so I think just another way to look at it is just you know, what, what, what can I learn from this? Where can we grow together? What can I learn about God here? Where can I give up some of my control?
Doug:And so that's what I've seen from other people when they're taking care of their their spouse specifically is they're just they're learning a lot more about them. And so the death do you part type thing. I think that's real. But the the worldview expands, because you're seeing a different side of the person that you've been living with for several years.
Keith:Boy, and and there there's a temptation when you when you go to the them, who is the them? Is it the kids or the parents? There's a temptation, I think, to withhold communication sometimes. Like if we tell the kids they're going to take the keys away or they're going to make us move out of the house. And so in a culture that seems to want to do it my way on things, you're either A or B, there's no in between ground.
Keith:I wonder if they're in a way to help the parents and the kids communicate better about this process because a lot of times that there's we're we're working together, but the two of us may be working against the better of both of us. Like, if if we're working together and we're not taking available of resources that are taking advantage of those resources that are available for us, we could be just hurting each other, which I think as a child that walked through that, I think the fear that led me to kinda lean towards forcing more than just letting things happen was that idea, what if it goes bad? Because nobody wants, I don't think, to see something go really badly for their parents
Doug:Yeah.
Keith:Where you could have stepped in and and helped them.
Doug:Yeah. Yeah, it was. I think it starts just being honest too, like both parties. And if both parties can't be honest, that's where you might even have to bring somebody else in.
Keith:Yeah. It it it can definitely create some challenges. There's I think of that Bible verse that a prophet isn't welcome in his hometown, and sometimes I think the children might feel that way. Mhmm. Then the parents might feel like, well, they're they're trying to do the blossom.
Keith:Right? And I've had the advantage of going through two generations of this so far. I watched it with my grandparents and my parents and me and my parents. And and and it it can be whatever you want to make out of it, think. It it because it is gonna go badly.
Keith:So so the question, what
Doug:It is something gonna go badly.
Keith:Yeah. What if something goes badly? Unfortunately, you know, the state is a thing called life safely, and so it's gonna go badly. The question is how? And is it gonna be embarrassing to you, frustrating to you, disappointing to you?
Keith:The catalyst for me with mom was a number of things that we basically I don't know if I can get in trouble for this. We basically kidnapped her and moved her into our house. She had some cognitive deterioration, and so we didn't give her feedback at that point. We had talked with her multiple times.
Doug:Yeah.
Keith:But it wasn't really serving any purpose. And so the idea of what if something goes bad was involved in kind of making us feel pressured to act. But if we step back and said something is gonna go badly, so do we care which way it goes? Like, is it if so so probably six months before mom moved in with us, it was winter. She fell in her front yard, laid there for a while, broke her wrist.
Keith:And I think when she moved in with us in August, she was just getting the cast off. And decision to move her in with us was so that she could live safely rather than something go badly. And having had the experience of time with that, I spent a good amount of time pondering, I wonder if we just left her alone. Like, it would have gone badly and she might have died in her front yard, but she might have died where she wanted to die rather than being in my house or assisted living or whatever. Those were thoughts that I struggled with.
Keith:And I guess I would say to anyone that's watching this, there is no really right answer on that.
Doug:Yeah, you gotta live the choice you make.
Keith:Yeah, yeah. It's it is what it is. And
Doug:I think you made a good choice.
Keith:I made a fun choice.
Doug:Think you made a really good choice. Yeah, it allowed your family to experience having a elderly person in your house, the grandma. It allowed them to see real life, what happens with gravity. And then it expanded your knowledge on jumping into the nursing home care world where you've been able to speak on your personal experiences and help other people. It is such a I think it's a great choice.
Keith:Yeah. And and and I don't I think you know me well enough to know that I don't really live with any regrets. And I I only point that out to other people that are trying to decide. Like, sometimes you could force the equation because you're afraid mom or dad's gonna die in their house. They just might not that might not be something that's a concern to them.
Keith:Yeah. And so you can either let them, force them probably you're gonna be able to do whatever you want is what you're probably gonna be able to At some point, as their health deteriorates, they're probably just gonna have to yield to you, which is if you take it from the parents' vantage point, they're gonna be really frustrated because they don't want gravity to win this battle. And they don't wanna be I think I think dependent is the word. Like, early on in my career, was taught that our role is to help people become achieve and maintain financial independence. And I just concluded that's a farce that you can't can't live independently on this planet.
Keith:And so realizing that you depend on others might force you to communicate better with them, whether they like what you're talking about or not. Like, the kids may not like mom talking about we're probably going to die in five or ten years. They may not want that conversation, but it's a necessary conversation. So like probably one of the you you said that I you thought I did a good job. I think one of the things I enjoyed and learned from it, Connie told me one day that in her People magazine, I think it was Amy Grant, said that a friend of hers told her that this is the last great lesson my parents is gonna teach us.
Keith:Wow. And I found that I was teary eyed thinking And about what they're teaching you is what? Unconditional love, brother.
Doug:See, that's exactly Keith was gonna say is we live in a world where we can hire stuff out. We have great systems. We have people who can jump in and help who have education or experience or whatever. But like, if you think about what love is there, it doesn't define itself as great systems, as being able to hire stuff out, or being able to transfer the risk of something potentially bad happening to another. It is basically just a lot of patience.
Doug:So if you're the caregiver, or you're them who needs the help, you're going to have to have a ton of patience. You're going to have to have some kindness, you're going to have to get over some wrongs. You're going to wrong each other, you're going to tick each other off, you're going to say stuff you shouldn't have said, you're going to hear stuff that to you that you shouldn't have heard. And so you're gonna have to forgive each other. And at the at the just the bottom line level of care, it is love.
Keith:And I think one of the things to probably keep in mind with all of that is you're both getting older. You're not probably going to be 25 and dealing with this, right? And so like most recently, I was probably 61 when I was having to do something I just didn't want to do for an older family member. And I was just so frustrated. It was probably 06:00 in the morning.
Keith:Was physically I worked myself into a sweat trying to help them. And it was so disgusting. I didn't want to do it, but I did it because a lot of it. Right? And sometimes those loved ones may not say thank you.
Keith:They may not acknowledge what you did. It reminds me of Caddyshack or Bill Murray was telling the line of his tip from the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama said, oh, no. There's no there's no tip today, but on your deathbed, you have total consciousness. And depending on how the communication is between you and your loved one, there may not be a thank you.
Keith:Yeah. Yeah. And that's okay if you're realizing I'm learning something more important than what I think I am right now. You're gonna learn something probably infinitely more valuable than you ever imagined.
Doug:Yeah. It's good. Yeah.
Keith:And and one of the one of the funny things this week is that Caleb was given this book, don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff. It's got little little snippets in here. And I'm like, the person that gave me this book I'm like, I've I think I've got that book. And I started pondering the book, and I think I got it, like, twenty five years ago. Don't know when the copyright is on this thing.
Keith:It probably was in the early 2000s would be my guess. 1997. Yeah. And when they handed the book and I started thinking, I got that on my bookshelf. I don't think I threw it over, gave it to goodwill, whatever.
Keith:I'm like, wait a minute. You're the one that told me to get it. It was like, oh, me? No. The person that told me that twenty five years ago.
Doug:Oh, that's funny.
Keith:That's funny. And so I'm like, hey, you can read that. I've already had it. It's good. But But if you just take the title, don't sweat the small stuff, and you're trying to work the compass for both kids and parents or whatever relation you are with the person that's really being affected by the gravity at the moment, you're probably going to spin around that compass a little bit.
Keith:There's probably going to be stuff you just want to ignore. Yeah, I just I don't think that I don't think the driving is something you should ignore. I think that's probably for society something as uncomfortable as it is, you should probably jump in that one. But there's a lot of other things, you know, if if, you know, if I'm wearing orange socks and purple shoes, Caleb, you're just gonna have to let me be. That's funny.
Keith:Yeah. Well, I I don't think I mean, I don't think many of us are gonna escape this kinda idea. This is, I think, a critical part of financial planning. It doesn't really get to we didn't get into all the dynamics that go around on the, you know, the day to day things that have to happen in this season of life. But I think what we wanna be is just your champions to help you think through this because it can be really conflicted.
Keith:It can be really emotional. And I think the Gimbal team can step back from the situation and offer you some wisdom that's really gonna make it a better journey for you.
Doug:Yeah. Call your mom. Call your daddy.
Keith:I'd say my takeaway from all of it that I've done is not to sweat the small stuff. And in the minute when you feel your shoulders getting tight and you feel get your frustration, either way, whether it's with your children or with your parents, depending on which one's frustrated, to step back and say, you know, they're they're only doing this because they care, and I'm just gonna smile right now and breathe in and not get that worked up about it. That's probably what I would do because, otherwise, if you fight each other, you're just gonna miss some sweet times in life. Yeah. Well, hopefully, this will help you up your average, particularly when it comes to your family or your loved ones where they need a little help or you're helping them.
Keith:Jump in there and see what happens, and we'll look forward to seeing you guys real soon.