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"It's not about what happens to you it's about how you respond when hard stuff happens" - Dr Julie Smith
After practicing as a Clinical Psychologist for over a decade, Dr Julie Smith decided it was her mission to make high quality and engaging mental health education more accessible online. So she started using TikTok as a platform for therapy. A year and a bit later, Julie has built a following of over 3 million as an online educator. In the conversation we talk about her success as a creator as well as deep diving into some of my favourite chapters from her brand new book 'Why Did Nobody Tell Me This Before?' which takes a scientific approach to topics like motivation, self doubt, identity and what it means to live a meaningful life.
Dr Ali Abdaal is the worldโs most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isnโt discipline, itโs joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Aliโs cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Aliโs a firm believer that happiness isnโt the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
Ali Abdaal 00:00
Hey friends, how's it going? Welcome back to the Deep Dive podcast we are kicking off season two it's very exciting. We've revamped our studio a little bit. So if you watch season one of the podcast and listen to it, you would have seen kind of the evolution of the studio over time. Anyway, without further ado, let me introduce this podcast episode, which is with Dr. Julie Smith, who has written this fantastic book. Why has nobody told me this before. Julie is a clinical psychologist who has over 3 million followers on Tiktok, and various other social media platform and she shares tips about maximising our mental health and understanding our minds and our brains and how psychology works. And that cool stuff like that, that helps us live healthier, happier, more productive lives. And in the conversation, we talk a little bit about her success as a creator, how does she go from this kind of having a very normal healthcare type job of being a clinical psychologist to then randomly deciding, you know what, let me start posting videos on tick tock, we talked about kind of the feelings behind there the cringe response and like, how she got over the fear, and how, through that decision that she made about two years ago, now, she has managed to inspire millions of people and educate people about the mental health in a really cool way. And we also talk about some of the concepts that she talks about in the book, like things like motivation, and fear and grief and self doubt, and all these other psychological issues that plague us on a daily basis. And then towards the end of the podcast, we also talk about the idea of living a meaningful life. And that's a topic that I've been thinking a lot about. And I know Julie's thought about it a lot. And we talked about some of the psychological research that's gone into this idea of living a meaningful life. So yeah, hopefully, you'll enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Let's go for it. Alright, so Julie, welcome to the podcast. How you doing?
Dr Julie Smith 01:24
Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here actually.
Ali Abdaal 01:27
Yeah it should be interesting. You're a clinical psychologist. What is the clinical psychologist what do you do?
Dr Julie Smith 01:33
So clinical psychologist works in, well, we can work in sort of brain injury and things like that but I worked in mental health. So I was providing assessments and psychological therapies in all different kinds of services. So I worked in a service that was purely for Ministry of Defence for a while, and in sort of trauma work and things with veterans. I worked in inpatient, and intensive care wards, or in crisis teams in the community. So lots of different sort of mental health services, offering, you know, either very intense support or longer psychological therapies.
Ali Abdaal 02:08
Okay. And so what sort of problems were you seeing on a daily basis?
Dr Julie Smith 02:11
In the NHS, the sort of more severe and enduring end of those problems, you know, all sorts of mental health problems, but once I worked in I started as small private practice, it was just by myself, and that was more people who were sort of functioning on a day to day basis working, you know, that sort of thing. And but struggling with maybe, you know, grief, or burnout or, you know, all those sorts of things that, that happen more day to day.
Ali Abdaal 02:44
So what's the difference between that and like, what a therapist does? Or is it the same thing.
Dr Julie Smith 02:49
So it's a difference in in training, so somebody might become a therapist after being maybe a mental health nurse. And then they might train in certain therapies, for example, or do a counselling course, was with clinical psychology, you start off doing a psychology degree, and then you work in mental health for a few years and get your experience, do some research, that kind of thing. And then you train and you do your doctorate. So then it's purely in, you know, psychological therapies and assessment and those sorts of things. So it's a training difference, really.
Ali Abdaal 03:18
So you have to have a PhD to be a clinical psychologist?
Dr Julie Smith 03:20
Yeah. Yeah. So you spend a few too many years studying and don't Yeah, which you're used to, right. But yeah, you say you can train in sort of one or two therapies or as a counsellor from any profession. But, but yeah, it's sort of purely psychological therapies.
Ali Abdaal 03:40
I know so little about psychological therapy, it's the sort of stuff that kind of we refer people to clinical psychologists have absolutely no idea what they do. So yeah, apologies if this seems like a dumb question, but is it that like, you train in like, like, 10 different therapies, and then you kind of pick the one that's appropriate for the patient? Like, how, how does it How does the training work?
Dr Julie Smith 03:58
Yeah, that's probably the difference you'll find if you if you sort of choose a clinical psychologist over a different therapist is they might be specialised in one specific area. Whereas in the, in the clinical training, you get, you're, you're trained in lots of different therapies, depending on which university you go to, and stuff like that. And then you're equipped with those tools. So you can, you know, interchange, you know, use different therapies for different problems.
Ali Abdaal 04:24
How have they come up with the different therapies?
04:28
They will come from different areas of research and there'll be your sort of your behavioural era where it was all about sort of learning theory, and then you've got sort of other areas of research that looked at the impact of, you know, your thought processes and, and some other bits of research, combine those together and, and created this thing called CBT that everyone sort of has heard about, and really, that those kinds of therapies are about the link between your thoughts, your behaviours, your physical state and how you feel, and that you can't wake up in the morning and just decide, right? Today I want to feel love and joy, you know, you can't just sort of directly make them happen. But we know that what you feel is so heavily influenced by those other aspects, your experience, so your focus of your attention what you're doing or not doing, or your physical state, those sorts of things. So we can use those to then influence how you feel on a day to day basis. So that's the sort of one therapy and there are others that are based on research around, you know, early life attachment, and then adult attachment or relationships and those sorts of things. So, you know, they all have sort of branched out to different areas of research, and can be used for different problems. But often people come along with a whole collection of problems, it's not sort of one specific thing, probably similar in medicine, as people come with a whole collection of things going on. And they all need to tackling the different tools.
Ali Abdaal 05:54
So you have like this arsenal of tools, and you sort of pick the appropriate one. And because you've got enough of a grounding and like the main ones, you can sort of carve your own path through that that's going to help help the patient or the client or whatever, yeah, how scientific is therapy?
Dr Julie Smith 06:12
Well, everything, you know, through my doctor, everything that we learned or used had to be evidence base. So, you know, we were meant to kind of scrutinise the research and, and justify everything that we were doing based on, you know, research been done, or when we were doing our own research and things like that. So, yeah, I mean, I think there is, maybe it's the sort of the sort of well, being industry that has maybe sort of muddied the waters for people a little bit where there's this lack of trust, because people aren't really sure, like you say, what is the difference between a psychologist or a counsellor or another therapist, or, you know, there's this sort of people don't necessarily know, because they're not told what the difference is, and, and who to trust? Or what qualifications to look for, and those sorts of things. So there's a real issue there that perhaps could help people, you know, when they're looking for help? Because I often get people asking me those questions, you know, I've got this, this problem, or my son or daughter has these problems? Where do we go? Who do we look for what sort of therapy we're looking for? So
Ali Abdaal 07:15
I signed up to the School of Life therapy programme, like a few months ago, yeah, just for the bands. Like, I mentioned this to my mom. So my mom's a psychiatrist. And she was like, There's no such thing as therapy just for the bounce. Like, what are you doing? As he was like, Well, you know, when when you go for therapy, you have a specific problem that you want a solution to? And then you want to find out what what techniques are therapists using? What form of therapy? Is it either using this or this or that? And I was like, Look, man, I don't know. My boy. alanda baton says that everyone should get therapy. And so I'm just gonna try it and see what happens. Where do you start on the spectrum of like, therapies for specific targeted problems versus everyone can benefit from therapy?
Dr Julie Smith 07:49
Well, you know, yeah, there is there is an argument for, you know, a problem with a specific, you know, targeted set of tools and all that kind of thing. But actually, there's also a lot to be said, for building self awareness and self reflection. And, and when we don't do a lot of that, and we don't build up those skills to look back on things, reflect on things, learn from experiences, and use them as we move forward, then we're missing a lot of opportunity for development and growth and sort of self awareness. So, you know, often people go to therapy, when they don't feel there's any other choice, you know, they just, they get to sort of rock bottom or, you know, hit an endpoint and think, Well, I need to work this out now. But it's much harder to dig yourself out of a huge hole than, you know, crawl out of a ditch is sort of, you know, I think go for it.
Ali Abdaal 08:41
Okay, interesting. Yeah, cuz my, my, my view of this was always that like, even if I have nothing wrong, like right now that I don't know of, at least let's just get this get a little like vibe check. Kind of like, I don't know, prevention rather than cure.
Dr Julie Smith 08:54
You can only benefit from anything you learn from it and how are you finding it so far?
Ali Abdaal 08:58
So I did like three or four sessions, and in each of those, she was like, okay, so what are we talking about today? I was like, Well, you know, this thing's on my mind, we kind of talked about it. And after about three or four sessions, I found that like, for the subsequent one or two, I was really scraping the bottom of the barrel to figure out what to talk about. And so we ended up stopping the sessions, because she was like, Well, maybe you know, you've had these things, and we've solved them. And so there's no need to keep it keep it going. So I'm not, I'm not I'm not really sure. Yeah. Does that vibe with your experience? Yeah.
Dr Julie Smith 09:26
I mean, it's interesting, isn't it sometimes there, when you're sort of not sure what to talk about, you're often thinking sort of looking for a problem, there has to be a problem you're talking about, rather than any form of introspection at all or, you know, learning about an experience or anything like that. So it's just interesting to be able to, and nice that you can go back to it knowing that you don't need to feel that you're really stuck with a problem before you just look at something and learn from it.
Ali Abdaal 09:53
Yeah, yeah, I kind of saw it a bit like so we got a bunch of business coaches that are helping with like the operations and stuff with business. and just rock up once a week. And they're like, Alright, so what's on your mind? Well, we're having kind of this issue with like a team member, and then just just sort of talking through it with someone. It's just like enormously helpful. And so therapy kind of felt like a business coach, but for life. Yeah, lots of us go through life with a bit of a love hate relationship with STEM subjects. In theory, the idea of learning how the world works in science, or learning how to build websites with computer science is really awesome. But when you're plotting your way through formulas in a science class or trying to understand code, it can be a bit dry and boring. The way I like to learn more about this stuff in a fun and engaging way is with brilliant with kindly sponsoring this episode brilliant have a tonne of courses that teach maths, science and computer science with visual examples and interactive challenges along the ways that you can learn by doing one of my favourite courses in brilliant is actually the computer science series, especially the Introduction to Algorithms and the fundamentals of programming with Python, I was actually considering applying for computer science rather than medicine at university. And I ended up going down the medicine route, which I don't regret. But I never really understood computer science. And although I knew how to code, I didn't really understand the foundational algorithms and structures behind the field of computer science. So I really enjoyed checking out brilliant courses on that. And also the course on cryptocurrencies absolutely sick. And without that course, I really would not have understood how Bitcoin, for example, works. Anyway, if you want to improve your math, science and computer science, then head over to brilliant org forward slash deep dive, and the first 200 people to sign up via that link will get 20% off the annual subscription to brilliant, so thank you very much brilliant for sponsoring this video. So you're working as a clinical psychologist in the NHS and for Ministry of Defence, and then you started the private practice. And now you have 3 million followers on Tiktok. Like, how did we get from private practice as a clinical psychologist to 3 million followers on Tiktok? What was the story?
Dr Julie Smith 11:35
So once I had three children, I realised I couldn't do it all well, you know, I was doing part time and chairs part time private, and I just couldn't manage it all. So I thought I could, you know, see a few sort of private clients during school hours and manage it really nicely around the children. So I sort of moved into that, that private work. And then during that time, I had all these people coming along. And a significant portion of some therapies is quite educational. So you teach people a bit about how the mind works, how they can influence their mood, and emotions and energy levels, or relationships and how they can work out what cycles they're stuck in, and that sort of thing. And a lot of people I found once they had that education, they were raring to go, they were empowered by it. And, and there was a lot of you know, that's why the title of the book is, why is nobody told me this before, because so many people were saying certain versions of that in terms of, you know, how did I not learn this at school? It's not rocket science, but it's really made a difference to my life. So yeah, it was, you know, all of these people coming along, finding that stuff really helpful. And then I was sort of harping on to my poor husband saying, How is this not available? You know, why do people have to pay to come and see me to find out, because it's not therapy skills, it's life skills, it's stuff we could all use and stuff that I used to say well, as well. So, you know, it's, I was sort of talking about it to him. And then he said, Well, okay, make it available, do it, you know, put a video on YouTube or something. And, and so we did, we started to kind of make a couple of really cringy videos where I was sort of, you know, trying to be educational and, and at the same time, my husband discovered Tik Tok, and we were instantly addicted to it, it was really fun. And there were lots of dancing and comedy and. And he said, Well, you know, try and say something in 60 seconds and put it on there. And my initial thought was, No, I will get trolled out of there, for sure. But anyway, long story short, is we had to go with the idea that at any point, we can delete this and just forget it ever happened. But very, very quickly, within a couple of weeks, I think it was it just started to kind of blow up and that was November 2019. So it was a couple of months before the lockdowns started to happen and stuff, my whole, the whole account was set up with the idea of being useful and putting some value in there, I didn't really have an interest of being a public person in any way or that sort of thing. So my idea was, every video has to have some sort of value to at some point that that could be shared. And the fact that people clicked follow on an account that was purely about mental health education says a lot about what people need to hear and what people are looking for, I think, and, and the stuff that's just not, you know, as readily available as or perhaps there is lots of information out there. But there's also lots of misinformation out there. So people wanted to know that what what they were hearing was, you know, valid or research based and stuff like that. Yeah. So yeah, it started to kind of blow up very quickly.
Ali Abdaal 14:37
I wonder if we can just sort of zoom into the that moment when you decided that you're going to go over the cringe and make that YouTube video and make that tick tock, what was that experience? Like?
Dr Julie Smith 14:46
Yeah, it was okay. I hated the sound of my own voice. So when I would sort of listen back to them and stuff. Some of them I just sort of hand it over to my husband Matt. And so just press the button and all the sort of look this way. And then, you know, just didn't ever want to see it again properly. But probably that's one of my methods actually is just don't watch it back too much. Because then you just become critical, and you want to make the perfect video. And actually, it's better off just saying, I know it's not perfect, I might not look or sound perfect, but it's a useful message to put out there just in case. And then what you do is you get back these messages from people saying, well, thank you that really changed my day, or I'm using this with my son or daughter, and it's really helping Thank you. And then you think well, yeah, it's okay to put a non perfect video up there, if you're being valuable to someone. So that sort of allowed me to be in perfect.
Ali Abdaal 15:39
Yeah, yeah. That that kind of reminds me of the stuff you talked about in motivation. In the book, I think it's maybe chapter two, where you say that it's really about like, those small steps and getting that feedback. And then that sustains the motivation. Yeah, it was that I guess that kind of played into what kept you going in the early days.
Dr Julie Smith 15:54
Yeah. And in the book, I talk about that sort of need for intrinsic motivation, you know, that sort of we don't need, you know, they always give stickers to kids now, don't look at schools and stuff. You know, we don't need a sticker or a trophy along the way, we need something inside of us that says, yes, you're on the right track, you're doing the right thing. And for me, it was it was that feeling that I get from feedback from real people saying I used it, and it was helpful to me, thank you. And then there's that realisation or, you know, I can sit in one room with one person at a time, and try and be helpful. But when you can get, you know, 100 messages back in the day that say, Thank you, that was really helpful, then. Wow, you know, what an opportunity to reach those people.
Ali Abdaal 16:37
Were you worried at all about your professional standing? Yeah. Like, yeah, what was that? Like? This is the thing that all doctors worry about, as well.
Dr Julie Smith 16:45
Yeah, it's something I can ask you actually because that was probably the main thing in my mind was, Oh, what if someone I used to work with sees this? And what will they think of me and, and that sort of thing. And, and, you know, somehow I managed to just do it anyway. But actually, the feedback I've got from from old colleagues and staff has been really positive, you know, sort of colleagues who did GPS and stuff like that, who say that they, you know, mentioned the channel when people are struggling. And I think, Gosh, that that's, that's the compliment you want isn't it is when people are willing to share your stuff because they see it as valuable, too. So that's the sort of seal of approval but there is just this moment of almost freefall, isn't it? What you think I'm gonna do it anyway, and see what happens and risk disapproval. But I think I always had to stick to that sense that I'm doing it, because I believe this could be a useful thing for people. I know, there's the stuff that people could have access to, and, and we could make it valuable for people. So I had to just sort of stick to my guns, try and maintain a sense of credibility all the way along and not just say anything, you know, do my research and make sure that things were grounded in an evidence base and stuff like that. So that I believed in it.
Ali Abdaal 17:57
Yeah, I think that's really it's it's sort of like the whole Simon Sinek stuff, the whole start start with why thing like when when you have that core, why behind what you're doing, it's not that you're trying to get famous, it's not that you're trying to become a tick tock celebrity, is that you're trying to educate people on something that's genuinely useful. Yeah, I guess that is, you know, that's the intrinsic motivation, rather than the extrinsic. Oh, I want to hit a million followers and stuff like that.
Dr Julie Smith 18:18
Yeah. And it's, it's difficult because it grabs us. And these platforms are made to be addictive for creators as well as users. So there is a sense of, oh, how many views did we get there? Or how many views do we get there, but always been able to pull it back to? Why did I make that video and actually, I've noticed that if I make a video that I'm particularly pleased with, because it's valuable information I want to share, I care a bit less about how many views it gets, because I think if I, if that video helps 10 People that only gets seen by you know, 10,000 Then that's that's worth it for me. But if another video I make is not so valuable, but I'm doing it to try and get views, then it's got less of a reward for me if I you know, if I start to go down that route.
Ali Abdaal 19:03
Yes, exactly the same on the YouTube video thing, like every creator I've ever spoken to has this constant struggle between caring about the numbers while simultaneously not caring about the numbers? How do you how do you tow that line?
Dr Julie Smith 19:14
I just think it's a tightrope, isn't it? And you always have to just do a bit of a sort of mental check in every now and then. Because I can tell if I start to go down that road, I mean, my husband is really that kind of side of it. So he'll look at numbers and say Oh, this didn't do well that did well and things like that. But I feel that if I get too into that, then it's not good because it really stumps creativity and my ability to to think from from the word go about what am I going to put it together to make a video with you know, if I'm only thinking about views, it's just so much harder to do the whole fair. But I mean, that's where I found your channel. So, so helpful and such an inspiration but it was because you were sort of putting so much value into each into each video. You know, when you kind of do book reviews and things like that you just openly, like, give everything just talk about it all and what was useful and what was not useful and those kind of things. And that's really sort of where I like to come from is just, you know, just give them the value, and then we'll try to set it up for something that is vaguely entertaining afterwards.
Ali Abdaal 20:16
Yeah, yeah, like, so I had a bit of a crisis a couple of months ago, where we put out a video on the channel and had to delete it, because it was just like, 50% dislikes, loads of comments being like, this is like really just genuinely bad content. And it kind of led me on this sort of journey of introspection of realising that I've gone too far in the direction of, you know, I preach consistency in like a one video a week for many, many years. And I'd still been clinging for and a half years later has been clinging on to this idea that I have to put out two videos every single week. And we need to put that video out there because there's a sponsor deadline. And eventually, that goes to the point where I was like, oh, you know, really scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of video content ideas, and genuinely putting stuff out for the sake of it rather than because it was valuable. And so it was like, Okay, let's just take a step back and really examine this assumption, why do I feel the need to actually put out two videos a week, and then I decided, You know what, let's now not be beholden to any upload schedule, and only put out a video if I think it's actually good. Or if I think, you know, people will like it in some capacity. Like, I know, you've done a few videos that are more about like you rather than about, like the educational side, which go down really well, because people then start to care about you as a person. And so in the last couple of months, we've actually not published that many videos, but the channel is growing faster than ever before, because the only ones we've been putting out are the ones that I've internally felt. I'm actually proud of this video, I think this is genuinely good. Yeah. And to your point, like, when when I hit when I hit publish on a video that I feel is genuinely good. I don't care about the numbers anymore. Because it's like, this is this is actually a sick video. Like, if people like it great. If they don't, that's totally fine. Yeah, I think I think it's great.
Dr Julie Smith 21:46
And that's so refreshing to hear someone, you know, with as many followers as you and that, you know, this huge channel, can also put out a video and go, Oh, gosh, is performing really badly, you know, take it off. So, I mean, it's so human, then, isn't it to say, it happens to everybody? And you know, because I've done the same where we've put video, everything? Actually, no, this is not going down? Well, you know, just just, it's not quite right, we've got it wrong somehow. And, and it's okay to do that, you know, I like this idea of not putting across this sort of, I think that's something that can happen as well, being a psychologist, people think you must have it all sorted, you must just, you know, be motivated all the time, or you must, you know, never have a problem, or you never have anything you don't feel you can deal with. And actually, that's the sort of side of social media that I tried to stay back, stay back from and I'm a human being. And it's really important to sort of show people that we all make mistakes, or we all struggle sometimes and and it's all right, because we're all human, and, you know, number of followers or anything doesn't make any difference.
Ali Abdaal 22:47
Really nice. Speaking of number followers, so. So you started about two years ago, November 2019. Yeah. And we're now we're now at 3 million. So what was the growth trajectory, like?
Dr Julie Smith 22:58
So it started to grow really fast. I think there was a point that in sort of the early first couple months, we were going about sort of anything up to sort of 100,000 a month, and then in lockdown, I think the the biggest month when everybody you know, locked down and switched on Tik Tok was a sort of, I think our biggest man, we put out a sort of really big, viral video. And I think we had about a quarter of a million in a month, but that was sort of one off. And then it sort of steadied out. And and yeah, so we just sort of tipped over 3 million, couple of weeks ago, I think it was, so it's been steady going. And then and then also sort of branching out to, you know, other platforms and places like Instagram, where you can really sort of engage your followers and being your stories and stuff like that. But also, I think I, you know, the 62nd videos, or the 15. Second videos are great for grabbing people's attention. But there was a part of me as well, that wanted to be really valuable and give all that detail. And that's really what the book is about is, is giving all those extra details about okay, well, if there is this concept that can help, how do you do it? Here's Step one, here's step two, in his that theory behind it, and here's the research that's based in. So that's really where the book came in about giving all of that detail so that people could go to it as a resource. And structured in terms of problems as well you know, that you don't, especially when you're struggling, you don't want to read a book cover to cover you want to be able to go to the bit you find helpful, or the problem you're dealing with and work out straightaway. So I tried to sort of structure like that as well. So it's just a real resource for people
Ali Abdaal 24:29
Yeah, no, I really liked that approach to it. Like I look at the table of contents and I went straight to meaningful life because I'm like, this is currently the problem is like motivation. We like sorted that years ago to the meaningful life stuff towards the end of the book. You've got a whole section called on a meaningful life people have been trying to answer this question for like millennia. So what what's the kind of psychology research scientific take on? What how do we live a meaningful life? Sure.
Dr Julie Smith 24:55
So a lot of the stuff from that section is taken from I really like using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, AC T, which has a whole sort of part of that therapy is around understanding your own values and what gives you meaning and purpose in life. And, yeah, so as I've devoted a whole section to it, because I think it's so, so important. And I also think it's important to not just do it once, but to keep doing sort of little values, check ins, where you, you just step back and get a bit of a bird's eye view on what's going on in your life at this point, what matters most to you at this point, because it changes, right, you know, what was important to you at 21 might not be the same things that are important to you at 31. So your values change as you go along. But the way that we set out in therapy is, is that a value is like a path that you follow your whole life, there is no end to it, but you just you value that path. So you want to stay close to it as much as you can. So a goal is something you once you've done it, you you've done it, it's finished. So your your goal might be to do a marathon, but your value might be to stay fit and healthy. And so the marathon becomes one of many possible goals along the way. But your value is to, to continue to be fit and healthy along the way. So that's the path. Yeah, it's fitting how you know, fitness and health. And then there can be lots of lots of hurdles, and lots of goals along the way. But at times life steers you away from those. So you know, you might life happens, and maybe your job is very intense, or you have children or whatever it is, and it might stay away from that path. And so that's why I think it's so important to do these regular sort of values, check ins where you go. I'm not feeling quite right. And actually lots of people come to therapy with that sort of sense of, I'm not really sure what the problem is, I just, I'm feeling a bit lost or a bit, you know, life feels meaningless at the moment. And often that's because people have lost touch with what's most important to them, or life has steered them away from things that matter to them. And so, just getting clarity on what does matter to me, what is the most important thing are things in my life at the moment? And what kind of person do I want to be in those areas of my life, which then allows you to set goals based on the life that you want to have? Or the person that you want to be?
Ali Abdaal 27:22
How do you go about figuring out your values. So there are
Dr Julie Smith 27:25
lots of kind of little exercises you do, you can do. Sometimes you can literally just grab a piece of paper, separate into little boxes, and you might have boxes for family life, or lifelong learning or health or creativity. So you can kind of fill those boxes are the different aspects of your life. And then in each box, kind of ask yourself, what kind of person do I want to be in this area of my life? So maybe it's family relationships? What kind of son do I want to be to my mom? What kind of my dad, you know, what kind of relationship do I want to have? What do I want to represent to those people? How would that show up in terms of behaviour and action, you know, daily behaviour. And you just kind of fill it with with words or bullet points. And that gives you this, this picture of what life would be like if you were living in line with all of those values. And sometimes they pull on each other. So sometimes they conflict, you know, you might have this real idea of being a you know, successful entrepreneur, but actually, that sucks all of your time. And you also want to be a family guy, and you want to spend time with your kids. So, you know, and so often there's this idea, you know, this sort of this balancing act, where, okay, life has pulled me in one direction, and I want to pull it back this way. So it's not about setting goals and doing them perfectly. It's about always just tipping the balance. You know, I haven't been working out for a while because I've been so focused on work. So I know, I'm gonna just kind of come back in this direction a little bit more than unbalanced things out. So it's really just getting clarity. But it's also not not focusing on what happens to you. So it's not saying this is what I want in my life, because then things can happen. And then you think failed. It hasn't worked out. It's really not, it's really not about what happens to you. It's about how you want to be in the face of all the stuff that life throws at us. How do I want to respond? When hard stuff happens? How do I want to respond when I'm in a good place? And stuff like that.
Ali Abdaal 29:24
Yeah, as you were saying this was like that. That's really good question. I should I should have done it. So is that like so? In in one of the early drafts of my book proposal, the first chapter was going to be about like values and like meaning and stuff. And after doing a bunch of stuff and like reading an ICT textbook and things I realised Okay, let me leave this aside for now maybe this is a book three or four or 510 years down the line when we're 20 or 30 years down the line don't want to have more experience. Let's stick to the thing that actually can feasibly talk about which is like productivity and fun and stuff. And so I came up with cross a bunch of these sort of value finding value finding exercises. So I've kind of figured out what some of my buddies are, I think, but knowing that, and then actually using it to change a decision that I would have made otherwise, haven't really done much of that. Like, how, let's say someone does the journaling prompts and figures out, okay, I want to be the sort of son that does XYZ, I want to be the sort of parent that does XYZ. How do you how do you translate that into physical, like actual action?
Dr Julie Smith 30:32
Yeah, that's where you know, the therapy stuff can be really helpful, because it's a protected time in the week where you are going to reflect on those values and the things that you want to work on. So they're not necessarily a big problem, but it's an a direction you want to steer to. And so it becomes this place where you're accountable to that, and you go and reflect on, in hindsight, and that's where it all begins is looking back on things. So you think, Okay, here's my map of, you know, all these different values I have, and things that are important to me, How am I living in line with them in, you know, how have I been living in line with them in the last two weeks? Or have I, you know, and, and when, when you look back, and you think, Gosh, I really haven't, what, what would I need to do to step back towards that value or to step back towards that path. And then it creates a mini goal for the week ahead, you know, and, and that's really how therapy works is, you know, you go and you have this sense of accountability for yourself, you. There are things you want to work on. And you see how you've been getting on, and you tweak things a bit, and you set a new goal for the next week. And then, and then you reflect on that again next week. So I think translating kind of ideas and values into action is really about reflection and planning. So you you learn in hindsight, you look back, actually, yeah, if I'm really, really honest with myself in the last couple of weeks, have I been living in line with that value? Yeah, whatever it was enthusiasm, for example? And then, you know, if, if the answer is not really, you create a set of, you know, specific actions that I will do this week, to move closer to that. And then the next week you reflect on Well, how was that? Did it move me closer? Does that feel enough? Do I need to do more? Do I need to step back? And those sorts of things. So it's just always balancing and tweaking and never ever doing it perfectly? Because that's really not the aim.
Ali Abdaal 32:29
Yeah, I really like that model of like, it's like you're steering towards this path that you've kind of decided that this is the thing I care about. For now. Yeah. Do values change much as we grow older?
Dr Julie Smith 32:39
Oh, hugely, I think. Yeah. I mean, for me, I, you know, when I was, I don't know, 19, or 20, I never even envisioned myself as as being a parent, I was really focused on my studies and learning and travelling and doing all these things. But now, that's, without a doubt, the most important thing in my life. So, you know, that's only a decade, he's only, you know, you know, it's not a long time, but but when life throws things at you, and life changes, then you know, what, what matters to you changes as well. And that's okay, you know, you don't have to be the same person. Yeah, you learn and grow. And you would adapt to that, I think.
Ali Abdaal 33:18
So coming back to the overall question of like, meaningful life, it sounds like figuring out your values is like a pretty reasonable first step on the path of like, Hey, I mean, we all basically know that we want to live a meaningful life, but I think very few of us actually keep that in mind. When because it's just it's kind of a bit a bit weird. Like, it's a bit out there to think, oh, what's the meaning of life? Okay, well, let me do some exercises and actually figure this out, rather than just dismissing it as Oh, no one can ever figure that out. Kind of thing.
Dr Julie Smith 33:45
Yeah. I think we often look outwards as well, don't we, we look to, you know, we're bombarded with media that tell us what life should be about and what our purpose should be. And it's quite empowering when you give yourself permission to generate your own meaning, and say, well, actually, you know, it is up to you what matters to you. And then you can structure life around that this lifestyle really, really hard. And there are still responsibilities, but how you approach those responsibilities. It's really your choice. And, and that can be quite sort of refreshing, I think, to think you don't have to be gaining everybody's approval, you have to be looking at, well, what would life be like if I approved of myself.
Ali Abdaal 34:30
Oh, isn't like if I were kind of following the path that I decided as meaningful?
Dr Julie Smith 34:33
Yeah, so if I'm looking for my own approval, what would I be doing? You know, it's sort of yes, we can get approval from other people. But also, what would make me really pleased with myself because these are my values rather than them necessarily being other people's
Ali Abdaal 34:47
can you really dissociate that like, you know, let's say I value I'm considering applying to Harvard for like an MBA. And I keep on like, second guessing this because I'm like, why am I doing this like I value prestige I value status, I value these badges of like, stuff. Is that really like me? Or is that kind of what society plus or minus my family have kind of instilled into me? That makes me feel as if it's coming from within? If that makes sense?
Dr Julie Smith 35:12
What's What's the gut feeling? What's the Do you feel that it's come from outside?
Ali Abdaal 35:18
No, I don't feel like it's come from outside. But I also didn't come out of the womb thinking I want to I want to get a degree from Cambridge. So there is some level of like, you know, it wasn't a genetic decision, there is some level of like socialisation that goes into this sort of stuff. Yeah. And I guess I wondered to what extent, the fact that I know that probably a large chunk of my identity is socialised in some to some degree, does that still make me me? Or does it make me a product of my the society have been brought up in? And then how do I like find my true meaning? If? Well, it's society that's told me that Harvard and Cambridge degrees like a good thing? That makes sense?
Dr Julie Smith 35:56
Absolutely. Because we're all a product of our upbringings, and our cultures and all those kind of things, aren't we? So, you know, I don't think it's about sort of finding this one truth, I think it's about creating the meaning holding on to things that, you know, what a wonderful thing that would be to do, if that was what you would enjoy and find inspiring, and exactly. So, you know, I think you can, that's the beauty of it, is when, when you're in a position that you can choose those things, then you can decide, yes, it might be that I've, I've learnt, you know, some of these sort of ideas around prestigious universities and stuff. But actually, I would really enjoy that. And it would give me a lot of meaning and purpose, it doesn't matter if if it came from someone else, if you agree with it, you know, oh, whereas if you feel pressured, and it's not something you want to do, but you feel like you're doing it because, you know, someone will disapprove of you if you don't. And that's slightly different, isn't it? Yeah. But if it's something you love and get good memories from.
Ali Abdaal 36:59
I think it's kind of like the like, realistically, the reason I go to the gym is not for myself, it's to look more attractive. But I also agree that it's a good thing to do, and therefore, who cares what the prime motivation is, it's a good thing to do.
Dr Julie Smith 37:10
Exactly, you can kind of use all the different aspects of price sharing to your own advantage.
Ali Abdaal 37:16
Are there values that are more better than others? For like, and like, like, for example, if I would be like, okay, you know, really, my value is sitting in front of the PlayStation playing video games all day. Yes, you could say, well, any anything goes as long as it makes you happy. But there's also the, I'm sure, there must be some evidence around like, well, I don't know, relationships, or like, whatever, as, as focusing on these things, even if you feel like you don't really want to in the moment, because you're focused on video games will actually be good for you in the long term is there like that aspect when it comes to values of some being, like better, if we're optimising for a meaningful life?
Dr Julie Smith 37:51
Yeah, because I think, you know, your value might be, I don't know, timeout and rest or you know, your value might be around, there might be even to do with, you know, your well being if you have a really stressful job. And that's always been time to sort of unwind for you, then it would fit whereas, you know, playing video games all the time, might actually pull you away from a lot of other values. So, you know, it can be really tempting. And that's where the subjects are really difficult to kind of grasp and, and be concrete with, because they're so sort of broad, and there is no set prescription. There is maybe that temptation to kind of make it your own, make it whatever you suits what you want to do at the time. And, and actually a lot of having a meaningful life is about being responsible, you know, taking responsibility and accountability for anyone you're responsible for, or things you're responsible for things that you believe in, and doing the hard stuff. It's not necessarily about doing whatever, whatever feels good. Now, it still, you know, that that's when we get into trouble is, I think is when we we base our actions on how we want to feel now as opposed to how you want to feel in the future. Because you might really enjoy playing computer games non stop five years down the road, you might look back and thank god, yeah, I really want to do that, you know?
Ali Abdaal 39:15
Yeah, I think there is a balance there between, like, not being so future focused that we forget to live in the present. Yeah, but also not being so present focused that like the whole live every day, like it's your last it's like probably terrible advice. Yeah. Because then you'd be doing heroin.
Dr Julie Smith 39:32
A meaningful, purposeful life is often about, yoing the hard stuff for the benefit of your future or someone else's future or your community. And yeah, all of those things.
Ali Abdaal 39:43
You know, the, the way I've been thinking about it recently is, I mean, it's all kind of semantics but like, happiness is how good I'm feeling in the moment broadly, and like contentment and meaning is how useful I am being to other people. I don't know does that like makes sense at all, from what you were what you've read and written about the stuff.
Dr Julie Smith 40:03
Yeah, cuz I think there's a, you know, this sort of happiness movement was was really it's a tricky one isn't it because it's it's a feeling like any other that comes and goes and we can't depend on it and but I think when so much was sort of written about happiness as this thing that we all needed to sort of grab and hold on to it, then it gave us the impression that, that happiness is our default mode. And anything out of that could be a mental health problem, right. And so you know, that this idea that you can, everyone has bad days, right? Everyone has days, when they don't feel happy, they feel something else. And that's normal, that's human, and that's okay. And actually, some of the things that make us happiest, also make us feel lots of really negative and painful emotions. So I don't know, like, what you know, when you become a parent, you feel that's the, you know, best thing in the world to you, and you feel really happy. But also there'll be times when you feel really, really sad and, and ashamed if you feel like you've made some mistake, or, you know, distress when your child goes out into the world, or you know, that there's a whole host of emotions that come along with happiness as well. So, yeah, it's a shame house, sort of over simplified, it kind of hasn't been made. I think so.
Ali Abdaal 41:18
So we kind of said that living meaningful life is sort of like, figuring out what your values are, and then attempting to live sort of in alignment with those values. Are there any other kind of elements that add into the recipe? Are the thing of meaningful life beyond the value stuff?
Dr Julie Smith 41:36
Yeah, I think it's, it's keeping in touch with those values, isn't it on a regular basis, so that so that you don't find yourself adrift and wondering what on earth is the meaning if any, or, you know, when, when, because I think life starts to feel a bit meaning less, doesn't it? If, if we don't really have clarity on why we're doing what we're doing, and, and all of those things, so I guess it's sort of keeping in touch with those, those values and, and trying to be around people who's whose values connect in some way, I think you can suddenly feel very alone, if if you find yourself in a situation where your values clearly do not crossover with the people that you're around. So there's, you know, you can't really talk about meaningful life without talking about relationships as well, and how to manage relationships. So yeah, I mean, there's a section in the book on on, or there's a chapter in the book on relationships within the meaningful life, because you can't, you can't really separate the two, we're social beings. So, you know, relationships are our meaning really.
Ali Abdaal 42:43
What can we do to kind of live more in alignment with that? I guess, cuz, at least speaking for me, I know intellectually, that relationships are the most important thing in life. And yet, if I think about, like, all the podcasts I listen to 98 of them are about business. And two of them are about healthy relationships. And if I think about how I spend my time, like 16 hours a day spent here, doing like, the YouTube stuff, and like, one or two hours I spent hanging out with friends, like, if that makes sense, like, Yeah, that's so that. I know, intellectually, that actually relationships are important. And yet, I didn't call my mom this morning.
Dr Julie Smith 43:17
And that, in itself is just interesting, isn't it when we look, because I think there's perhaps a tendency to, when we, when we look at that, to them be self critical, and think I'm not getting it right, or, you know, I need to, and, and actually, it has to come with that sort of reflection has to come with some compassion, that we are set up in a world that, that dictates that we go to work for a certain amount of hours a day, and, you know, certain days a week and all these kind of things. And, and we are wrapped up in that. But what an amazing privilege to be able to sort of get a bird's eye view on it, look at it and say, I'd like it to be a bit different could is it possible in with my life situation at the moment to make any difference or to tip the balance. And the reality is a lot of people, they have to be at work for a certain number of hours a day, or they you know, all those kind of things. And life is really tough. But when we get into a position where we have choices, how empowering to be able to use them, and decide, You know what, you know, I'm Ali Abdaal now and a Friday afternoon. Wow. And that would be great, you know, but the the pressure that is a cultural pressure, I think, isn't it to you know, this sort of burnout badge of honour type thing that I work and, you know, earn more, be more, buy more, all of that kind of stuff that inevitably leads to you know, lots of people queuing up outside the therapy room door.
Ali Abdaal 44:38
Yeah, that's a question I sometimes ask myself, like, what is the point of all of this more? And of moving to London getting this ridiculously expensive studio building a team to frickin 17 People now it'll feel I sometimes look back and I think, Oh, how the hell do we go here? But then at the same time, I think okay, but this is like, genuinely feels fun. Like, if I If I think of how I'd want to spend the next 12 months of my life, I could kind of do whatever I could like travel the world and stuff. But it genuinely does feel more stuff more fun to be like, actually, actually, I just want to come into the studio every day, just hang out with the team and like, make cool, make cool videos. And maybe that preference will change further down the line. Yeah, but right now, that's the thing that feels the most fun. And so let's just give it a go and see what happens.
Dr Julie Smith 45:19
Yeah, absolutely. And it's giving you you know, opportunities and great experiences, and you're meeting different people. And, and so if you value those things at that point, and it feels that it's giving you joy, and some meaning and some purpose, and then why not? You know, it's okay to say, this doesn't have to be forever. I can do this while it feels meaningful. Yeah. And then it's okay. At some point, if my values or meaning change, you know, it's, it's kind of taking each other for what it is.
Ali Abdaal 45:46
Yeah, I really like that, like most decisions, I mean, other than, like marriage and kids and stuff, I kind of temporary, like, you know, this is a one year lease on this building. So it's a one year experiment, and then we'll see what happens. It kind of takes the pressure off it a little bit. That the way that the thing that we're doing now is not the thing that we actually have to do forever. It's just the thing that we're doing for now. Yeah, I was checking with ourselves. And I find that, you know, over the last couple of weeks, I've been finding that something doesn't feel quite right. And I look at my calendar, I'm like, well, it's full of all of these meetings and stuff. And really, I want to carve out more time for writing. Alright, cool. I just can't do that. So no more meetings before 4pm. Alright, team, sort the rest out. And now I have writing time in the morning, it was great. I just feel it feels nice to kind of give myself the permission to do that. Yeah, because I was operating before and just default mode and not realising that I can sort of carve the life that I think I want, and experiment that with that for a couple of weeks and see what happens and correct course, I sort of thought I had to sort of get it perfect from from day one. But it's nice to have the freedom to just like explore.
Dr Julie Smith 46:49
Yeah, because there is that pressure isn't there to sort of have it all sorted and appear to have it all sorted, which then holds us back from learning and changing direction. A bit like you know, even in sort of medicine or in psychology, if, if any point it doesn't feel safe to to make a mistake or anything, then then you become sort of almost defensive in your practice, don't you in any kind of thing come, it's not okay to learn from experience and do something differently next time, I have to show that I've got it all sorted. So I think there is a lot of that in our society isn't there that that stops people from just making a small change and giving themselves permission to do that, because it would make them happier.
Ali Abdaal 47:32
As you're growing on tick tock and Instagram and kind of dabbling with YouTube. Where did the book come into things like what was the story behind how the book came to be?
Dr Julie Smith 47:38
It was, it was in my mind that I wanted to give more details and more you know, how to use to make it as useful as it could be for people. But it wasn't until I got approached by my literary agent, Abigail Bergstrom, who was really, really helpful, you know, as having all these sort of publishers get in contact with ideas and things they wanted to do, that she really helped by saying, write the book that you want to write. And so you know, put together a proposal for the thing that you want to do. And then we'll take it from there. And, you know, send that out to people so and then, and then Sandy do a penguin, which was just really, really exciting. And it was writing through through lockdown. So My poor husband was trying to homeschool three children while I was locked upstairs trying to get the, you know, 80,000 words out, which, again, was a huge roller coaster emotionally because you you're taken completely out of your comfort zone, or the place where you feel like you know what you're doing and started, I got a few book recommendations from your videos actually about writing and things like that. And, you know, I just started reading a lot about writing, okay, oh, my gosh, I know the psychology. But how do I put it across in the right way? And so that was that was a real experience was was? How do I write you know, that I've, I've got this, this this deal? Because I've got this audience? How do I make it really, really good, so that people can can be engaged by it and stuff?
Ali Abdaal 49:09
How did you find your literary agent?
Dr Julie Smith 49:15
So I was approached by gleam futures who have a management company, so I work with them. And they sort of helped me with the different brand deals and events and things that I'll join. And she was the head of publish their in House Publishing. She's now sort of branched out on her own, I think. But yeah, they sort of found me I was in weirdly, I was in the Evening Standard on some article, and during lockdown it was being delivered to people's houses. And so one of the girls that was quite sort of high up in gleam, saw the the article and then gave me a call and said, watch any management. But they've been absolute really, really helpful in helping me to kind of steer this off and because it's completely new to me. I'm just sort of saying At the therapy room, and I don't know what I'm doing, or where I'm taking this. So it was really, really helpful to have a bit guidance.
Ali Abdaal 50:06
Nice. And so when you so then you kind of put the proposal together. How, how different was the proposal to what's ended up being the final product.
Dr Julie Smith 50:15
It's similar in terms of how it's structured, I perhaps didn't have a really set idea of what would be in each chapter, I kind of had this idea of yellow cover this, this and this, and then, oh, the mountain of research. Okay, Mark, you know, and yeah, I think that there wasn't a day when my desk wasn't absolutely covered in paper and books and, you know, notes and things like that. It was a monstrous task, but what an experience. And I mean, how was your book going?
Ali Abdaal 50:46
So we've, the proposal is now finished, like a year later? Yeah. And it's like it the proposal went through so many iterations and to completely scrap the concept then when rate went out a whole different, different route. Now I'm into the actual writing. And I've realised that it's very easy to make promises in the proposal. Like in chapter one, I will discuss the importance of goal setting and why goals would be like this, rather than that, and why motivation is about this, rather than that it was actually writing like Bloody hell. They promise you to actually deliver on it, looking at the research like, oh, well, actually, the research says that challenging goals are better than easy goals. And my whole point is that easy goes all the way down. Trying to make a point that's like, no, the research and then looking into it. And yeah, it's a bit but it's fun. It's it's sort of like being back at uni, almost where it's like, I'm trying to make a specific argument throughout this essay. And I just need to find the evidence to back it up. To make sure I am not cherry picking egregiously to the point that it's actually inaccurate.
Dr Julie Smith 51:44
It's a similar challenge, isn't it? Because we're probably quite similar in the sense that I really enjoy the learning part. And I enjoy the reading and, and the discovery. And then the real challenge me is, Okay, try and put this into something vaguely coherent and engaging for people. And that was feels like the hard part. The bit I love is the all let's read and let's get all these together and find something has such potential in that. It's putting it together with your experience, and you know, things that you've read again, so these arms, they're just going Yeah, so I love the sort of learning part and, and bringing it all together. And then sort of, you know, going off on one in the kitchen to my husband about this, either this, this and this and this, but actually writing it down is a whole other ballgame, isn't it? So yeah, I find it super challenging, really challenging.
Ali Abdaal 52:34
Did you have any imposter syndrome around writing the book?
Dr Julie Smith 52:37
every day, every day? Because what what what was the book that you recommended, The War of Art. And it's such a good book and had to sort of keep listening to I got the paper version and the audio book, so that I can occasionally listen to His voice, reminding me that, you know, professional sits down and crack on, because they're at that first sort of hour or two of the day was really getting over that hump of, Can I do this? Am I Am I should I even be here writing this? Should somebody else be doing it with somebody else, a better place doing it. And then reminding yourself that you have all of this stuff to share that people are finding useful? And here we go. Okay. There's nothing better than finding yourself. So 20 minutes into typing? Yes. Yes, I'm doing it. I'm doing Oh, no. Now, I'm back to go on and off again. And you're kind of then worried about the next bit. But yeah, just another one of those experiences where you think I learnt a lot from it, because it was such a challenge for me.
Ali Abdaal 53:35
Yeah, I think in basically all of the chats that I ever have with my agent and editor, they feel more like therapy sessions, where they're like, look, it's okay, you can do this. Trust yourself. And I was like, but it's a book I like, Yeah, but books not that big a deal. Like, you know, if you were making a video about this topic, you'd be pretty comfortable. Like, yeah, I have that same energy when it comes to the book. Like yeah, but it's a book, like, a book feels like such a big deal. I don't know if you had any of that at all, like, yeah, what would it book feel like, relative to making it?
Dr Julie Smith 54:01
Yeah, I mean, books are my favourite thing in the world. So it says, it's a bit of a sort of running joke at home, actually, that, you know, I sort of hoard books and they're very special to me, and I won't kind of throw them away or that kind of thing. And, and, and so yeah, to me, producing a book is such a, such a special thing to do and, and there's so much potential every time you pick up a book that things that you could learn or that has the potential to change your day or your life. And so for me, then it perhaps gave me this sense of this has to be life changing and groundbreaking and, and while I believe that all this research was learning about is life changing and groundbreaking, and should be passed on, is still then then getting yourself to the point where you think this book can be, you know, and I put, you know, blood sweat and tears into including the stuff that I think has been so helpful for me and for the people I've worked with. If that can just generally help you get through those normal day to day problems that we all face, you know, there's a section on grief section on anxiety and, you know, motivation and those low days that everybody gets. So it wasn't really on disorders or you know, really sort of a, there isn't a section on depression, for example, but there is a section on low mood and dark times, which everybody faces, you know, everyone has those low days. And then how can we, how can we understand those? And how can we then do something about it? So yeah, it was just trying to be kind of as useful as possible.
Ali Abdaal 55:35
One thing you talk about in the book is the idea of motivation. And like doing things, even when you don't feel like it, how did you go about writing the book, even on days where you didn't feel like it.
Dr Julie Smith 55:44
There were lots of days when I probably didn't feel like it. Especially when I was missing out on family time. Because, you know, my job was originally set up to be, so that I could be a mum for a lot of time. And suddenly, I had this deadline, and I had to be on this book all the time. Yeah. And there are a couple of weekends and stuff where I, you know, the kids are going out and to the park with my husband and stuff. And I was at home feeling kind of sorry for myself. And those are the times when I really didn't want to do it, he then it's using those old therapy skills have sort of opposite action and stuff like that. So there's so this idea that you can, well, I saw your your video on that sort of activation energy and stuff like that. Yeah, and it's really, it's really similar to something we use in a therapy called DBT, dialectical Behaviour Therapy, where we talk about opposite action. So the idea that you can have an urge to do something, and we get a choice, whether we act opposite to that urge, or whether we go with it. And so and you can kind of practice, I mean, we used to act without knowing we used to practice as kids with like, polo mints and stuff where you would have to hold a polo in your mouth and not crunch it and the urge to crunch and bite down on the event was really intense. But actually, when you do that, you notice that you can have an urge to do something, and you don't have to go with it, you can do something else, you can act opposite to it. And so you can kind of practice with sort of simple things like that, just to build up that self awareness. But you know, the urge might be to go down and make a third cup of tea in the last, you know, 45 minutes. What's really going on here is I'm I don't want to type, because I feel like it's going to be terrible. So I'm going to just gonna start a knowing it's terrible. And then at some point, I get into a groove and I forget that I'm, you know, trying to not do this. So yeah, the ACT opposite was really is always really, really helpful for me, actually. Not easy. But when you do manage to use it, it's it's helpful. Yeah.
Ali Abdaal 57:36
One, one thing they wrote about as well is how motivation is tied to identity. I wonder if you can kind of elaborate on that a little bit?
Dr Julie Smith 57:43
So I think if you if you see something as a part of who you are, it seems to take less energy. If you clean your teeth every morning, because you see yourself as someone who looks after their dental hygiene, then it doesn't feel negotiable. It's just something you do. You don't do it because you feel like it today, you do it because that's what you do. And it's just a part of your life. So yeah, I think identity is a big part of the things that we do, you know, we do things because we've always done them. And so that's how they then become a part of our identity, that something has been part of our lives for a long time. So yeah, having something that that you decide as a part of your identity is not easy. Again, it's not easy. All of these things are really easy for me to say. I say that a lot in therapy, this is really easy for me to say really, really hard to do in practice, because it is. But if you can, sort of you know, and when, like you say when you're going to therapy for something that doesn't feel like a problem, actually, when you're trying to make some sort of positive change in your life, or redirect habits and stuff sitting down and thinking about your identity, you know, why is changing this particular habit really hard for me, actually, my identity is is based on something else, or you know, it conflicts with it in some way, then, you know, maybe your identity is that you work harder than anybody else. But then actually, you're not making time to go to the gym and stay healthy. So if you kind of then incorporate being a healthy person into your identity, it becomes a bit easier to prioritise it because it's a part of who you are. And you get to realise that you can do both.
Ali Abdaal 59:18
Yeah, that's pretty good point. I think that so I, when I when I first read atomic habits, and he talks a lot about kind of, ultimately, habit changes, like a thing, but really, we're trying to go for identity change. Yeah. And I started thinking of myself as I am, I'm a person who is healthy. And then it became easier to make certain decisions around going for one food versus another. And still not perfect. Like this morning. I was meant to have a personal trainer session, but I kind of got a bit a bit late of doing an interview until late night. So I don't really feel like do I cancel or do I not? And I ended up cancelling the session because I was like, It's fine. It's all good. But I think I think also when it comes to identity, one thing that I found is that like for people who are interested in like getting things done and productivity and like self improvement and all that all that stuff, there is kind of a sort of super identity in a way that sits above the specific identities, which is sort of like, I'm a person that gets things done, I'm a productive person, I'm a sort of whatever, that that means that kind of anything. Underneath that, which is basically everything else in life becomes easier to do. Whereas I find with people who have told themselves that they are a procrastinator, I'm just so unproductive, I could never do that. It becomes so hard to then do all of the other things like health and wealth and like caring about relationship, like all of the other stuff around what makes a good life is harder to do if you have an identity of someone who does not have their shit together provoked, proverbially? I don't know, if that's something that you found at all?
Dr Julie Smith 1:00:48
Yeah, absolutely, you can have sort of core beliefs about yourself from from that came from, you know, maybe early in childhood, and they've just persisted. And then and they can really, we don't think about them all the time. So we're not always even aware of them. You know, in therapy, we'll spend sometimes a fair amount of time sort of trying to work out what those core beliefs off someone, and I'm really sort of trying to get right down to it. And once we get there, there's often this sort of lightbulb moment of people where they think, yes, and because you don't really think about your core beliefs all the time, sometimes never at all. But they're that template that was perhaps set up for you early in life, that is, is your template for the world. So it's your idea of the often I am statements. So it might be I don't know, if it was something negative, it might be I am unlovable, or I am unlikable, or something, or it might be what to expect from other people. So other people will abandon me or other people will, you know, hurt me or something or something about the world. So the world is a dangerous place or something like that. So those, those core beliefs are things that kind of sit under the surface and influence the choices that we make. But we don't necessarily consciously think about why we're making those choices, we have an urge, and we go with it, because we always did. So So yeah, that sort of all of that identity stuff is a big part of what happens in therapy. But we can do that kind of thing. In a self help approach, so you with journaling, and things like that, you know, you can really reflect on some of your own, you know, choices or the cycles that you seem to get stuck in and you're not really sure how to break it, getting it down on paper, something we do in therapy a lot is getting a bird's eye view, we literally draw maps of behaviour patterns, and and then you look down and you go, Oh, that's how I can break it. There's, there's the exit. Okay, now I know what I need to do, which can be really helpful. So there's a lot of that in the book where there's a lot of things like journal prompts, they're just questions for you to sit down and go, Okay, let's answer these 10 minutes. And maybe you might have that moment when you go, oh okay.
Ali Abdaal 1:02:51
I think journaling prompts are such an underrated like, technique, because, like I, I've, I've come across a lot of journal prompts. And as I was reading through the book, I was like, Oh, these prompts are really good. And then I didn't do anything with them. But I know if I just sat with any one of them for 10 minutes and actually just answered it, I'd get some clarity on like, stuff in my life. Yeah, and it just feels like anytime I've done that, in the past, I've always felt felt like, Damn, I'm really good at this, I really should do this more often.
Dr Julie Smith 1:03:15
Yeah. And that's where doing this sort of, you know, the therapy thing, even though there's not a specific problem that you're really trying to fix. Sometimes it can be that sort of introspection and, and learning about yourself in the way that you might with journaling, where you just have someone to answer or ask those questions, but then also reflect back on what they're hearing and things like that, you know, therapists can be a mirror essentially, where they reflect back to you what they're hearing from you. And sometimes that can be quite surprising what, what you realise you're, you're sort of giving out, you know,
Ali Abdaal 1:03:45
when I, when I mentioned this therapy thing to my mom, she was like, and I kind of said that away, you know, it's kind of nice, even dad had a specific problem. She was like, Yeah, but, you know, like, why can't you just talk to your friends about that kind of stuff? I was like, Yeah, that's a good point, I probably probably could. But there's something about speaking to a stranger about stuff that feels a bit different to speaking to a friend.
Dr Julie Smith 1:04:04
Yeah. And sometimes in a friendship is obviously a two way thing isn't there. So you often kind of talk for a while, and then you feel that you need to be there for the friend. And so it goes back and forth. And sometimes if you have something you really want to sort of deep dive on or really want to work out. Sometimes you do want that completely private protected time, where you can just focus on that without feeling guilty that you're, you know, taking up your friend's time or something like that. So, you know, and you can get a trained perspective, whereas friends will can be a great great support, but sometimes might try and solve it for us or make us feel better in the moment. And sometimes if you're really trying to work something out, you don't need to feel better in the moment you need to sit with it and and keep going so that you can kind of work through it.
Ali Abdaal 1:04:53
Yeah, it's it strikes me that therapists are often very good at asking questions, what are like the top three techniques that are persuade us to kind of go deeper on a topic with someone.
Dr Julie Smith 1:05:03
And so the last sort of very open questions, you know, the the yes or no answers are not what you want in therapy. So the last very open questions that require more than a yes or no answer to get someone talking, they will just zip it sometimes and just be completely, you know, I've had whole therapy sessions where I've barely said a word because someone is just going for it. And they're, they've got a flow, and they know exactly what they want to work out and say, and things like that. But there are other times when you actually do a lot of talking. And there is a lot of education. And so it's perhaps a skill or kind of being able to take what someone is saying, and, and get out and paper. So you're formulating and you are taking a maybe a specific time or event, as sort of He Said, She Said, or I did this and I did that, and you plot out the process. And actually, that might not be a one off event, because it might be a pattern of behaviour that they're stuck in. And then you kind of get this bird's eye view and, and then that person can kind of see, oh, right, that's what I'm doing, or that's why I'm doing it. And, and, you know, and then and then there's also this kind of it's Guided Discovery. So you're not advising someone do this, or don't do that. You guide and help them to come to a point where they discover it for themselves. And then they work out what they want to do based on their values or the life they want to create.
Ali Abdaal 1:06:28
One sort of pattern I've noticed is that Americans who write books are much more open with being prescriptive than Brits who write books. Every British author I've ever spoken to feels feels a bit of a cringe about like giving advice. Yeah. Whereas the Americans seem to be like, full on confident about it. I guess given that your book is a self help book, how did you feel about like, giving advice?
Dr Julie Smith 1:06:53
Yeah, it's hard, isn't it as well, because like you say, you know, a lot of therapy isn't about giving advice. It's about saying, Here's what the research says. How might you use that, and, and then helping that. So you know, being guided discovery, and that's why there are so many journal prompts in there, and an activities and exercises that people can work through. Because there's individual, you know, you can give a sort of blanket piece of advice, and it won't work for everyone. And it's interesting, because we often talk a lot about how about these, you know, like, sort of wellness influences and stuff you that say, you know, you must get up at 5am, and you must meditate for an hour then work out and then you know, have a decent, you know, special breakfast or anything? Yeah, but it really doesn't work for everybody. You know, there are people with children or people that shift work, and there are people that that just have lots of responsibilities and stuff. And so often when you give a blanket statement advice, there are lots of people then that that can't find it how as helpful because it just isn't what their life looks like.
Ali Abdaal 1:08:01
You have what I thought was a pretty hot take in the book, which is that this whole thing of don't care what other people think, is not necessarily like good advice.
Dr Julie Smith 1:08:11
Yeah, because we are you we are social beings aren't that, aren't we and however much you tell someone not to care what other people think they are built to care because and if you didn't, you wouldn't be a very social person, right? You know, if if I was in here and not caring what anybody else thought of me, I could be really antisocial and, and destroy relationships that I could have otherwise made. And and then I'm not going to fare very well if I'm not able to maintain relationships. And so there are opinions that matter. Some matter more than others. And I think it's all about that is working out whose opinions to my value. Yeah. And, and how can I then manage the discomfort if those people whose opinions I value disapprove of me or criticise me in some way. And then there's a whole set of skills around, you know, managing criticism and things like that and recognising that it comes from some, you know, another person and it's them.
Ali Abdaal 1:09:15
Do you get any any hate on the internet? Is that something that you've got?
Dr Julie Smith 1:09:19
I feel like I need to touch with now because so far. So so far, so good. I mean, it's not been there's, you get the odd weird comment that feels sort of strange, but not not huge amount. Not anything that's caused me to think I don't want to do this. And I don't really know why. Maybe it's like, maybe it's also because it's quite a niche subject that people are coming in sort of hitting follow because they, they want that kind of information. So yeah, it's been a really lovely kind of community actually, and even people that kind of get into the comments, support each other and come up with different bits of advice for each other and help and stuff, which is really, really nice. But it does make you vulnerable, doesn't it? putting content out there and I, you know, hats off to anyone who has the courage to, to make some form of content and put it out into the world because it's not, it's not easy, it makes you feel vulnerable and anxious and isn't isn't feel safe to do it sometimes. You know?
Ali Abdaal 1:10:23
Were you ever concerned about what your friends and family would think when you started being a TikToker?
Dr Julie Smith 1:10:27
Oh, hugely. So I think I probably had about about 100,000 followers on tick tock before I even told my family or anyone that I was doing. And I don't think I even told them, I think my husband, Tom, Christmas one year that we were doing this thing and, and I just hated telling anyone I knew I hate it. I didn't want to, you know, tell other professionals that I knew because of this sort of professional judgement side. But actually, there's loads of therapists and psychologists now that are all online doing something similar, which is great. And, you know, my family kind of get it a bit more now. Whereas it's really difficult thing to explain at the beginning, isn't it? So I'm putting these videos on the internet. Yeah, what? But now that it's a thing, it's a bit easier to kind of explain, how about you? Did you find it difficult to kind of share what you were doing with family or colleagues and stuff in the early days?
Ali Abdaal 1:11:21
Yeah, so when I when I first started, it was like doing doing vlogs of my medical school elective. And so I would post a link in our family Whatsapp group, but I didn't post anything on Facebook, where that where I had I, where all my friends were until, like, 1030 30 videos in I was like, Oh, hey, guys, you know, I did a thing I made these videos about my life to check it out if you want as a very kind of, and then I did not post anything at all on Facebook from that point onwards, cuz I was like, You know what? A, I still feel a bit cringe about this. And to be this is not like, my friends on Facebook are not the people I'm targeting with this content. And to this day, whenever someone says that, oh, actually watch a video, I was feeling like, Oh, hello. I just don't the the sort of people I'm talking to, are not the people that are like my friends or people older than me. It's very much people, people younger than me kind of myself when, like five years ago. Yeah, that kind of stuff. So it always feels flattering when people actually find stuff helpful. I don't know if you have that at all.
Dr Julie Smith 1:12:17
But yeah, yeah. And because it's still, when it's all online. And there's this little number of sort of views and things like that. There's a sense that it's not really real. But when a real person comes up to you and says, Oh, I watched your videos, and that was really helpful. There's this sort of, Oh, yes. Yeah, well didn't. And then that sort of moment of vulnerability of oh, God, people actually saw that.
Ali Abdaal 1:12:42
I think that's a great place to end this, I'd love to end with a few kind of rapid fire re type questions. Okay. The the questions will will be rapid, but the answer certainly elaborate. So if we start with a quick fire question, so what advice would you give to your younger self?
Dr Julie Smith 1:12:56
Just keep doing everything you normally do? Because, yes, I made mistakes along the way. And I did things that I would do differently now. But they got me to where I am now. So I think there's a recognition at this point in my life that you can make, you have to make your mistakes along the way you have to because you then learn from them. And they make you who you are. And and, you know, I think you learn about how strong you can be by going through really tough times. So yeah, I think it would be just just keep going. It turns out all right.
Ali Abdaal 1:13:31
Next question, who was who would you say has had the biggest influence on your career?
Dr Julie Smith 1:13:35
part of me wants to say, my parents because they, I was the first person in my family to go to university. And, you know, they didn't have huge amounts of money. So they worked really, really hard to give me that opportunity so that I could go. But I guess since that time, since sort of qualifying and you know, being a psychologist, probably my husband, actually, because he sort of, you know, said well, why don't you try private practice? And why don't you try and make a YouTube video and why don't you try to go on Tik Tok, and, you know, all of those things. So actually, where I probably would have kept my self contained and done, you know, a single thing. He's always gone. Go on, try that. Try that. Try it. And here we are.
Ali Abdaal 1:14:21
What is one tip for someone looking for success?
Dr Julie Smith 1:14:24
I would say it depends what success you're looking for. Oh, yeah. The idea of success is different for different people.
Ali Abdaal 1:14:32
Is that I suppose that comes back to sort of living in alignment with your values.
Dr Julie Smith 1:14:35
Yeah. I would say yeah, maybe work out what success means to you. And then start doing research on how to live in line with that.
Ali Abdaal 1:14:45
What is the first and last hour of your day look like?
Dr Julie Smith 1:14:48
Oh my gosh. So the first hour of the day is is getting everybody myself and three small children out of the house. So in time for school, which starts at 830, so lots of rushing around grabbing cereal bowls, getting people dressed, brushing everyone's teeth and all that, you know, just this constant. Go, go, go go go in the morning. So no time for those sort of idyllic, you know, yoga sessions or meditation and all that. You know, everyone get on board in the mornings, and then the last hour of the day, usually making videos and things like that. So get to the point where I'm kind of losing my voice or just cannot bear to do anymore. And then, yeah, kind of wrapping up on videos and stuff.
Ali Abdaal 1:15:37
The whole rushing to get the kids out of the house. Is that fun?
Dr Julie Smith 1:15:42
No. No, I mean, it can be. But you know, when you've got a deadline, and you have three small humans that have no concept of deadlines, and no real rush to be anywhere, you know, there's a sense when you're really young, that if something needs to happen, mom will make it happen. And and so, you know, teaching young children that, that if you need to get some time, we have to get dressed right now. So put the Lego down, you know, this is sort of, so it's not always fun. No, I'm not going to kind of try and create that image. Mums should be having fun in the morning.
Ali Abdaal 1:16:18
Did you consider homeschooling the kids like permanently?
Dr Julie Smith 1:16:23
After lockdown, that experience was really, really tough in terms of, they're all different ages, you know, we've got three different ages, three different sets of needs, very young, you know, hats off to anyone who does permanent homeschooling, what a challenge that must be, you know, you have to be so on board with the best techniques for learning and how to engage them. Because if they're not engaged, they're just not. And actually, I realise how much they missed from school, not in terms of academics, but in terms of social experience and being with their friends, you know, and you learn so much from school. I think by just being around other kids and learning how to relate to other people and, and build friendships and maintain friendships, there's so much of that, that is so good about school, I think.
Ali Abdaal 1:17:09
What is a sort of physical thing that's maybe under 100 pounds, that you can't live without?
Dr Julie Smith 1:17:14
Maybe the light that I use to make my videos. Given that half of our videos are made at sort of 11 o'clock at night, when like, I'm really Ropey and tired, you know, it really helps. So probably that.
Ali Abdaal 1:17:29
What book would you recommend to anyone, other than yours?
Dr Julie Smith 1:17:32
Other than my own, I struggle with this, I started a like a little book club on my Instagram, because there are so I have so many books, and so many that would recommend, but they're all for different things, you know, they're all for different problems or concerns. So but actually, for anyone doing any kind of sort of creative endeavour, the the one that I read a lot, that was a recommendation from your channel, when I was writing was I'm gonna get the title wrong now. But it's the War of Art, isn't it? Yes, they were just brilliant.
Ali Abdaal 1:18:04
Let's say you lose everything, like all the followers, and all the money and all the clouds and fame and stuff. What would you be doing? If you didn't have all that stuff? Would you try and rebuild? Or would you kind of do something else?
Dr Julie Smith 1:18:17
What's the I would focus on being a mom, I think, because that's something that has been really difficult for me is balancing that. And a lot of the time, I've been doing this really exciting stuff. And it's been fantastic. But I have felt along the way that it's pulling me, you know, it's been a real balance of I want to be with the children, I want to be very present with the children. And but they're all these fantastic opportunities that I need to, to, you know, be my best for. So it's been a sort of always a tight rate, but balancing that. So I'd probably sort of pull right back and go for the simple life.
Ali Abdaal 1:18:51
Yeah, a lot of people say like, when you've been doing something for a while, then you sort of then want to pull in the other direction. And yeah, get that that kind of balance back.
Dr Julie Smith 1:19:02
Yeah, I think it's really tough when you're sort of working and running a family that you're constantly in a rush. So I like the idea at the moment of sort of simplicity. But obviously, you know, you have to sort of earn and keep a roof over your heads and stuff. So there is that. But yeah, I'd probably go for probably back to my therapy room. A few hours in there and then and then make dinner for my children. Yeah, pretty simple.
Ali Abdaal 1:19:25
Like, when I speak to creators, we often kind of joke about the whole like, Yeah, well, you know, I've got a got to put bread on the table type thing. Usually, people are way beyond the point where they actually have to worry about putting bread on the table. And I've certainly found that the but I need to put bread on the table becomes sort of untested assumption for just chasing more and more and more. Do you think about that tool like I do. Yeah. And what point is enough enough kind of thing?
Dr Julie Smith 1:19:54
When is it enough and that you certainly because it's been a massive life change for me as well. You know, I've always been doing all the values stuff in the book thinking about, well, you know, what are mine? And am I in line with that, because a lot of the time, I've felt like it's pulling me away from my values because I, you know, I structured my career so that I can be really present as a mom and, and every time it pulls me, I think, oh, no, I want to be here. I want to be there. And, but that's a great opportunity. And it's always a balancing act isn't. And I think it's always about checking in and seeing if, if I want to pull back in this direction, you know, at the moment, I'm, I'm taking a day back to take my youngest son to swimming lessons and things and taking little clubs that I did with my other children and, and so just taking little choices and actions that help you to kind of come back to something that feels more more meaningful.
Ali Abdaal 1:20:44
That's pretty good. What quote or mantra do you live by?
Dr Julie Smith 1:20:48
I do you know, I was such a hoarder of quote, quotes when I was at university. First time, I used to have these little notebooks where I stored little quotes and things like that, and I don't really do it anymore. But I guess you've got Instagram, and there's just full of them, isn't it? So I don't really have a set one.
Ali Abdaal 1:21:02
It's like when when you've got seven in your head, it's hard to like, hold on. Yeah. It's like the book recommendation question. I find it really hard to recommend. Yeah, it's like, oh, it's tell me more about your problems. And then I'll prescribe you a book.
Dr Julie Smith 1:21:11
Yeah. I mean, I love finding a really powerful quote at the right time, you know, that really resonates at the time, but different resonate, different quotes resonate at different times. So I don't really have one that I live by forever and ever.
Ali Abdaal 1:21:23
And finally, journey or destination?
Dr Julie Smith 1:21:26
Journey.
Ali Abdaal 1:21:27
Maya asks, How do you overcome the feeling of being never enough?
Dr Julie Smith 1:21:32
And you know, there's a whole chapter on this in the book actually, about sort of self doubt and being enough and and I think, I think you've done videos before on sort of self sabotage, and not so sometimes on imposter syndrome, and the idea of kind of getting into a situation and not being enough. And I think, feeling that occasionally, because you're stepping into a new environment is normal, isn't it, if you're trying something new, you're out of your comfort zone, it's scary, you're worried about not being enough, that would be natural and human, and allows you to kind of feel a bit stressed and alert that allows you to kind of step up to it. If you feel it all the time, I would say sometimes that can be quite a complex issue. So it's worth breaking down and really kind of understanding where it's come from, how it plays out in your day to day life. So how you behave in line with that, or how you reconfirm it with some of the things, some of the choices that you make, or behaviours that you do. And then because it becomes then a whole process of breaking some of those patterns, because you, you can't convince yourself, you're enough, by just telling yourself, you're enough, your brain works on evidence, which is action, you have to, you have to create evidence with action. So you start to feel enough, when you start to behave as if you're enough. And by that, I mean, it might mean holding boundaries better, you know, and not sort of so people pleasing, for example, or, you know, it might be looking after your health more, or whatever that thing is, you know, probably a whole host of things. And that's why those things can be really helpful to work out in therapy, because it's complex, and it's long, it's a life practice. So if you've spent, I don't know how that person is, but if you spent the last 20 years of your life not feeling enough, it's not gonna change overnight, it's going to take time.
Ali Abdaal 1:23:30
So Han says, what is what are some of the best ways to cure burnout?
Dr Julie Smith 1:23:37
So the thing about burnout and stress is that, you know, stress can be good for us, it helps us to perform helps us to stay alert, and all those things, but it's made to be short term. So you know, that, that that burnout is really your body saying, Enough already, I need to rest. And so that really the only way to stop it from you know, I think the tendency is to experience burnout, then take some huge break, and be sort of, you know, have a big, you know, a couple of months off, go on holiday, whatever, feel better, and then go back to life as it was. And then you're going to have to same thing again. So I think it has to be consistent replenishment. If you're putting stress on your body and your mind, it needs to get something back for that it needs replenishment. So, you know, you have to structure your life in a way that gives you enough rest to replenish, otherwise, burnout will happen at some point.
Ali Abdaal 1:24:31
Yeah, I really like that. Like, I think a lot of people decide I'm going to go on a holiday for two weeks, and then I'll be cured. But then they go straight back into that pattern.
Dr Julie Smith 1:24:37
Yeah, yeah. And and then again, a lot of it is that pressure, isn't it to constantly be productive or constantly be doing something or earning something or that kind of thing? And, I mean, how do you manage it with you know, I, this stuff could go on forever, right? You could spend 24 hours a day here. How do you replenish?
Ali Abdaal 1:24:55
I usually like to leave by six, or at least not have anything the evening so that I can like hang out with friends. And I know that. For me, what I need to do is schedule stuff in that I feel bad breaking a commitment to. So for example, if it's a dinner with friends like today, I've got something, someone coming over to my place for dinner at 9pm. So I just have to be done with. Yeah. And that's a commitment that I have to take. I'm also trying to figure out like, can I kind of take kickboxing lessons, or join a kickboxing club that starts at 6pm on a weekday to force me to leave here at 6pm? On a weekday? Yeah. Because I think one of the issues with like, like, all of this stuff is just so much fun. And we're having fun, it's so easy to just like, keep on doing it, because it still feels fun. It doesn't feel like work. Yeah, I've been realising recently that like taking a step back from that, and actually thinking, You know what, the videos are still going to be that tomorrow. Nothing in this business is life and death. No one cares videos later, if we don't put out a newsletter, or whatever. And actually being okay to take the foot off the gas in terms of consistency. That's been really helpful in sort of feeling better about this whole all of this stuff.
Dr Julie Smith 1:26:01
Yeah, that trusting that it's, it won't disappear if you take a day off.
Ali Abdaal 1:26:06
Yeah, yeah. Trust me, it's all good. Like the channel is growing, even when we don't post up videos. So let's stop.
Dr Julie Smith 1:26:12
Do you have like weekends off or anything?
Ali Abdaal 1:26:15
Um, I don't think of the them like days off. Because there's always like stuff going on. Yeah, it's really nice. Like, you know, when I came back back from Pakistan a few days ago, it was a Sunday afternoon. And I had nothing to do for the rest of the day. That was so nice. I like clean the house to the laundry, clean the bathroom for the first time in a month, little stuff like that, and then invited a friend over for a takeaway. So I want to have more of those kind of lazy afternoons. But then I always think that and then an opportunity will arise. Someone who emailed me is like some angel investor investing in the crater canal. That's kind of cool. Let's hang out. And then all of a sudden the social economy has now booked up again. So it's it's a balancing act. It's a good problem to have. Yeah, I guess it's kind of the same with you. When you have so many opportunities coming your way. It's like you want to say yes to a lot of things? And if that balance between actually making time for yourself as well/
Dr Julie Smith 1:27:01
And I think that's the idea is, is never putting yourself under the pressure to do it perfectly. It's just a balance. And as long as you're aware that it's a balance, then you can just check in and see when is it out of balance? And when do I need to kind of redirect and take some time back and stuff?
Ali Abdaal 1:27:15
Nice. Oh, we've got a question from Twitter from new novella, who says, How would someone strike a balance with welcoming feedback, while also being exposed while also trying not to be consumed by other people's opinions?
Dr Julie Smith 1:27:30
And it is tricky, isn't it? Because you kind of we were talking about earlier, working out whose opinions matter most to you. I mean, criticism always stings, doesn't it? If somebody you know, even someone you don't know, in the street, says something disapproving or criticising, it's gonna hurt, it's not pleasant, because we're social beings were made to feel that, but I think it can really help to get clarity on whose opinions matter most and, and being able to, to recognise that you, you can't please everyone. So if you've got your set of values, right, it clear, so that you know why you do what you do. And then recognising that some people will like that, some people won't. And that's okay. So, you know, you, you set your sort of life so that you are trying to be approved by everybody all of the time. You're gonna feel like a failure pretty quick. Because you're human.
Ali Abdaal 1:28:31
Oh, we got Tintin Smith, who asks, What's the psychology research behind having a defined purpose? Or calling? Or why I'm torn between the Simon Sinek school of thought that we all should have a why, and how we can all have one clear definable way. And the other side of it, which is that where we're actually not evolved to have a single defined need? What would love to hear your thoughts on this?
Dr Julie Smith 1:28:52
Yeah, I think coming from the sort of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy stuff I tend to go with, you know, life is layered and complex, and you have different aspects of your life. And the values in those different aspects will be different. Yeah. So I think I'd probably tend to go for there lots of wise in lots of areas, rather than that kind of really narrow focus, but it's different for everybody.
Ali Abdaal 1:29:15
Yeah, yeah. That's kind of the way that I approached as well. If I if I think what's my number one calling a life I'm like, I don't know. But if I think kind of roughly what I want in each of the different domains like we live life and all this stuff, and I think okay, I have more of an idea of potentially what a good life looks like. Yeah, Connor says what's been your favourite experience as a result of you blowing up on TikTok.
Dr Julie Smith 1:29:33
My favourite experience. This is one of them. Being here of course. Favourite experience colourful have we done? Quite trying to think now. So it's just bizarre actually from some someone who was sat in therapy room every day and seeing one person at a time to go to sort of wild events and wild events but things I mean, things like that. I mean, I was included in the female lead book this year, sort of recognising different sort of females shaping the future, apparently. And so to go to an event like that, where there were lots of really inspiring people who are doing incredible things was amazing. And so doing this, you know, it's I think it's meeting all these incredible people who have brilliant stories, and they're doing really interesting stuff and, and having such a reach. It's really, I mean, it's probably meeting all the different people and stuff.
Ali Abdaal 1:30:28
All right, Julie, thank you so much for coming on. Haven't been links to the book, which is coming out soon. January 6, January the sixth, and we're putting this up once the book is out. Right. Cool. The book is, so that'll be linked in the video description. We will put an image up on screen because we don't have a physical copy just yet. Yeah. And I can't wait to get it in my hands to stick it on a little bookshelf. It's gonna it's gonna feature prominently in our backgrounds. Elon Musk makes Elon Musk Yeah, exactly. It's gonna be great. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. Any any final messages? What parting wisdom to share with the audience?
Dr Julie Smith 1:31:00
They just thanks so much. And and Yeah, what a great, great experience.
Ali Abdaal 1:31:05
Alright. So that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform and do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast or if you're watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That'd be awesome. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. I'll catch you hopefully in the next episode.