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Follow one church's journey as they depart from modern church growth trends and reinvent themselves by equipping everyday Christians to live out their faith in real life. Find episodes and show notes at www.dereksanford.com/reinventingchurch
Danielle (00:07.406)
you
Danielle (00:17.486)
Thanks for joining us in today's episode, Pilgrim's Progress, the shift from seeker to sender, exploring development roles, and the now to next prayer tool. Hi. I'm fine as usual. Oh yes. How are you? are. I am fine. Yeah. Everything's fine. Everything's good. Do you know I'm doing well as well. Where like everything's on fire and the little dog's like, this is fine. That's how I feel.
Hi Danielle, how are you?
Derek (00:32.472)
Fine.
Danielle (00:42.318)
That's the meme right now for me. Nothing bad's happening. just mentally.
Well, that's how you always feel. I mean, you're a little bit of a...
It's true. I'm a little bit of like a womp womp. I'm never just whelmed. I'm either under under overwhelmed. That's me.
No you're
Derek (01:02.21)
Not impressed or dragging yourself through.
Couldn't care less or I'm gonna die if I have one more commitment
Never just whelmed. I'm gonna get that's the shirt I'm gonna get.
I never just want to just yeah, it'd be good. I like it. Thank you. Hey, so with Thanksgiving fast approaching, I thought we could talk about Thanksgiving. Yeah. I don't know what like food stuff. Do you have family traditions that you do? Or things you won't do or you What I won't do is a turkey trot. I'll tell you that much.
you know-
Derek (01:32.344)
for lots of years. I did a thing last year. Last year. was fine. It was more of a walk. It was like a three mile walk. But I did run across the finish line.
how was it?
A fun one. Okay. Yeah.
Derek (01:47.63)
Walk away but run across the-
Derek (01:52.598)
Really?
Derek (01:58.309)
So, but we used to do like a football, like play, know, football in the morning kind of thing. We actually did something at Grace for a long time. And then, and then we, you know, it kind of morphed into some families that got together to do that. So we did that. I've been thinking about like,
Old school, this is gonna sound a little bit Norman Rockwell for everybody, old school, like when my, we used to go down, my mom's family was from Somerset, Pennsylvania. So like down kinda in the center of the state. And we would, she has six, five brothers and sisters and like all their families and so we had like a big thing when I was a kid. And we used to go down.
stairs in my grandma and grandpa's house and they had a ping pong table and they would set up the ping pong table for Thanksgiving dinner. So they put a thing over it and just because they needed a huge table there was not many people. But the thing, the tradition that, and again this is the Norman Rockwell part, we used to sing the Lord bless you and keep you and everybody was really good singers. Oh, neat. And with the, I don't remember what it was called, Sevenfold Amen.
huh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
I still get tears every time I hear that song because I can hear my cousins my aunts and uncles my parents my grandma and like Singing that song and just like four-part harmony like like I said people were really musical really singers and so it sounded like a beautiful ensemble singing that song so that's like a Special memory that's not maybe as funny as we were going for That's like a special
Danielle (03:38.23)
No, that's funny. No, just kidding. Mine's more like, yeah, my dad's like, what are we doing? Yeah, my family's weird at holidays. Like it's always just like, again, not whelmed. But it's like, I think in my family's, my parents' minds, it's going to be this like Norman Rockwell thing.
We eat lamb chop.
Derek (03:55.104)
Right?
Derek (04:04.472)
But then everything goes wrong.
It's like, yeah, what's that movie where it's like everything just explodes. And the food's fine, everything, you know, it's like that. vacation. Yeah. Yeah, it's like zany. Or like my sister will do something crazy. I remember one year my sister came in with her boyfriend that none of us had met on Thanksgiving. And she just starts walking around my mom's kitchen just being like.
It cuts into the turkey.
Danielle (04:31.64)
Where's the sweet potato pie? Where's the this kind of stuff? Where's the that kind of stuff? Food I never even heard of. She's just performing in front of this person as if we didn't make happen.
We normally do it, but we didn't this year.
Oh, we don't do all those traditions that we know nothing about. was the weirdest thing. Oh, but that's like I said, that happens at my family. It's like, all right. And then we'll like do the thing every single year. I really don't think my parents would be mad if I said this. We'll find out. Well, we won't. But like we will. I and this did not happen. I I promise it did not happen until I became Christian. OK. It used to be that someone would just pray and we would have the meal.
Hahaha
Danielle (05:13.324)
And then right when I was like a teenager going to grace, it turned into this, like, everyone just started going like this with their eyes. Like, is she the one that has to pray now? But no one has ever said that to me in all these years. I've never said it. Yeah. So like one time, like, and I remember my dad got like, you know, spiritually awakened.
Assumption because you have the direct line, right? Yeah hotline to heaven
Danielle (05:39.394)
prayed for a couple of thanksgivings. It's so messed up. And then one time I was like, Dave can do it. And he was like, what? My husband Dave and he's like, what?
Dave just got thrown under the bus
Is there a food you love or hate?
My mom's stuffing is really good. I like that. I hate... It can be gross. You're really good. She does like a sausage-y one. It's really good. Really good. I hate green bean casserole. I hate it. I don't understand it. I don't get it.
It's an interesting one because it it can be gross but it can be really
Derek (06:16.558)
Really?
Derek (06:20.92)
You're talking the kind with the mushroom sauce, like the cream of mushroom. I like it. You believe it or can deal with, not the soup, but if it's on a green bean casserole, I can do it. Yeah, that's very out of character for me.
You probably don't mess with that, do you?
Danielle (06:36.886)
That is... I'm surprised.
Yeah, I can do that. What about you? But the but here's what I would say. Yeah, the green beans have to be whole and chunky and crunchy and not those slimy ones. So if the beans if the beans are substantial, then I can deal with the then I can deal with the creamy sauce.
The canned ones. Little canned ones.
Danielle (06:54.818)
Double
Danielle (06:58.19)
Because think my mom does like the frozen ones.
Or those, what are the julienne or what are the green beans that are like the little strings of it? yeah.
Yeah, yeah, the French ones. French. Yeah, yeah, Little, Okay.
Yeah, that's too slimy too. Too slimy. It's so it is very much a texture. Yeah, sure. If I can balance the texture. I. Do not like the pies of Thanksgiving, none of them. I do not like pumpkin pie. OK, I do not like sweet potato pie like some of those for the. Give me a fruit pie all day or banana cream pies. My favorite of all kind of all time. But yeah, the pies.
No. Dave always requests a pumpkin cheesecake. But he really just wants cheesecake, but he says pumpkin so someone will make it so it'll fit. He's the same. hates the pies. Yeah.
Derek (07:48.92)
Yeah. So yeah, but stuff well, well made. You do. I like it if it's juicy. So the my my mother in laws makes a really good it's honestly stovetop stuffing, but it's like doctored up with mushrooms and different stuff in there. It's like a dry stuffing. Not not in the bird.
I don't like it. What's the what are we doing? Just have chicken. So let's just have chicken.
Danielle (08:08.716)
okay.
Danielle (08:16.153)
yeah, right. So we should be saying dressing. We don't do in the bird either. do like the set. think stuffing is inside, dressing is when you make it on the... Now let's do this.
Interesting, we better keep moving. It just hit me, I'm like, oh crap, we actually...
podcast
We're not like literally preparing for our Thanksgiving meals. I was about to start bringing up recipe blogs.
I totally lose myself for a minute.
Danielle (08:44.758)
I do get a little upset if people start to bring weird stuff. Like I'm fine, no sorry, if they bring weird stuff it's fine, but if they try to swap it, like we're not doing mashed potatoes, we're doing some rando scallop thing. No, you can bring your extra whatever you wanna experiment with, but let's keep the holy six. Do you know what mean?
yeah, no.
Derek (09:03.758)
And today's tool and tip is the holy six.
my gosh. You know what, Ashley, I'm glad for this conversation, because you can't enjoy anything anymore. You can't enjoy holidays anymore. We don't even, what is this called now, Death Day or something? Thanksgiving is called like the day they ripped our hearts out or something, isn't it? Okay, anyway. Sorry.
Now it just went there. Danielle.
I
I literally had a segue for this.
Derek (09:39.85)
conversations I didn't think this would be political.
Well, yeah, OK. Go ahead. It national. OK, you know what? Let's move on. OK, let's.
No.
Derek (09:51.776)
Yeah, yes. Just in that last three minutes.
This also is our working relationship. I was thinking too, this is our working relationship. One of us has to get the other one back on the rails. The problem is when we're both off the rails. But also, was looking, we had like a tech problem and I was looking at an episode and that one thing you said about superhero. You said like, you wanted to be able to read minds and you're like, well, let's read minds but then go fly on the weekends. And I thought about it more.
That is exactly our working relationship. It's like, do you get both things with the same amount of effort? Okay. So moving on to our reinventing church topic.
or ten minutes in.
This is what you all I've told you million times you all have the times to if you didn't use it by now That's your own problem. You can listen to us faster. I Apologize. All right. So this season we're talking about 11 shifts. Every church was made to be effective in our current cultural reality We're gonna start with a segment as always from clarity house this week. We're talking about moving from seeker to sender that's shifting from like attracting, you know seeker sensitive kind of
Danielle (11:10.24)
sensibility to making everyday and sending everyday missionaries. Before we go to our segment from Clarity House, you're gonna do an interview with Chris Bellinger. He is super interesting guy, super high capacity. He's a pastor. He also is on staff at Link in the Twin Cities. Link, for those of you who don't know, is a launch pad for mission-driven church planners.
So
Danielle (11:38.082)
They help Christian entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders, and their whole aim is to kind of solve whatever major problems are around in the cities that they're in. So he's deeply involved with them. yeah, excited to hear from him. But first, let's start with Clarity House.
Clarity House (11:58.242)
Hey, pastors and leaders, I want to ask you a question that you may have never been asked before. Or if you have been asked it, it's usually not one that guides most of our thinking in the way that we think about how we've put our church together. Here's the question. What are your best disciples and disciple makers need from your church? In my experience, that's not a question that many of us are asking around our staff tables. It's not one that
really sets up the conversation for our staff meetings. And it's not a question that we think about intentionally too often when we think about the way that we are doing church. And part of the reason for that is because many of us have been formed or at least influenced no matter what model of church we find ourselves in, we find ourselves either formed, influenced, impacted in some way by what is called the seeker movement.
In this video, I'm gonna challenge you to make a transition, a shift from seeker to sender. But before we do that, I wanna just take a moment and say thank you for many of the things that many of us are grateful that the seeker-sensitive movement brought to our understanding of church. See, we have to remember that this way of doing church was really solving a problem. And every era has different problems that it's trying to solve.
And in the late 1970s, 80s and 90s, the primary question the seeker sensitive movement was designed to answer the problem that it was solving is could I create a church that I could bring my unbelieving friends to in a way that wouldn't embarrass me or intimidate them? And built on the shoulders of places like Willow Creek and Saddleback in North Point, this primary question
an answer to it, built some dynamic churches that changed the way a lot of us do the things that we do. It challenged the way that we thought about dressing for church, the way that we dressed as presenters, the way people dressed when they were coming to attend. And many of us are incredibly thankful that we're not walking around every Sunday in suits and ties as much anymore. It challenged the way that we sang songs and worship and so much of
Clarity House (14:23.67)
innovation in regard to the worship movement happened during these eras, or at least was beginning to be birthed out in the middle of it. It changed the way that we preach because we wanted our unbelieving friends to be able to understand and apply the message and at least consider the message in claims of Jesus in a significantly different way than they could in the model before it.
It also challenged the way that we thought about what evangelism looked like. And many of us are deeply thankful for the kinds of innovations that the seeker movement ushered in. But like all great reformations, what problem we solved in one era often creates a problem of the next eras.
I love the way that John Calvin talks about it. says not to the church is reformed but it's constantly reforming. And part of what it means to be a champion of the church is to both celebrate the reformation before us work for the reformation of our time and then also celebrate the reformation that will be necessary based on the problems that we were solving in our time in the future. See every reformation solves a problem.
And creates one and here's the problem that the seeker sensitive movement created. It moved the finish line from actually in a helpful way from simply attending church to actually inviting my unsaved friends to come with me to church. But it stopped short of equipping me to go and make disciples where I live.
learn, work, and play. See, it's no secret the Gospels start with the command to come and see and they end with the command to go and tell.
Clarity House (16:29.61)
And in between come and see and go and tell is usually a second step of come and invite. What the seeker sensitive movement did really well is it moved the finish line from come and see to come and invite. But what it didn't do a great job of was move from come and invite to go and tell. Now I can tell you this wasn't probably
what was in the intentions of most of people who were forming, making, multiplying the seeker sensitive movement. They just wanted to create a church that they could bring their friends to. didn't have to be embarrassed of it. Again, like I said, you know, we want to say thank you for that. That's where the next reformation has got to start. But after we say thank you, we have to realize that we're in a new era and a new day. And part of what it means to be the church of the future, we're going to suggest
means making a shift from seeker to sender. And oftentimes the things that we did in a church that was seeker oriented can be the exact things that keep us from being sender oriented. See, in a seeker oriented church, we think about getting people to come to church, getting them connected in small group and serving in the church. And we think that what we should be spending most of our time around is making church better so that as we invite our own
say friends or people who are struggling in their faith, they can understand the message and have their life changed. And as great as that is, the problem with it is that sometimes it keeps us from actually moving from come and invite to go and tell. How would you structure your church if you wanted to move the finish line, not to just come and invite, but go and tell? What kinds of structures would you need to create? What kinds of environments would you need to create?
Would you be concerned not just about the groups that are happening inside the walls of your church, but how would you train your best disciples to create groups that are happening beyond the walls of your church? How would you champion not just the people who are serving, but the people who are living as everyday missionaries? And that brings up a second question. Are our churches ready to support everyday missionaries where they live, learn, work, and play? Now, I know we tell them,
Clarity House (18:54.958)
You were now entering the mission field, but what do these disciples of Jesus? Actually need well I'm gonna suggest to you that part of the ongoing reformation of church means thinking about how we train believers to live as Missionaries where they live learn work and play we need to equip them with the capability of being able to do the ministry out there See instead of just making our church a better place to bring people
We have to make our church a better place to send people out of. And that means starting with the question, what do our best disciples and disciple makers need from us? It means creating a church that supports everyday missionaries. And it means making a shift from seeker to sender.
Derek (19:52.002)
Well, Dave just challenged us to rethink the finish line from come and invite to go and tell and I'm honored to be here with Chris Bellinger. Chris, you spend your days helping everyday believers to discover and live out their kingdom purpose in the city, in the Twin Cities there. And so I would just love for you to tell us a little bit about what you do in your day to day. And then I just want to ask you about this idea of sending out everyday missionaries. And so welcome to the podcast, man. So glad to have you.
honor. Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it. Yeah. So I get the opportunity to work with local leaders here in the Twin Cities, what we call grassroots local missionaries. So essentially those that come from a testimony that maybe didn't grow up in church per se. And now they believe that God has given them something to do for the kingdom. And they haven't been able to figure that out on their own or had a maybe a denomination umbrella that walk alongside them. So what link
Twin Cities, we get the opportunity to do so. I actually helped them create what they believe God has put on their heart to do.
It's awesome, man. And you're a man of many hats. I mean, you're a pastor, you work with churches, you work with church planters, you're working with these entrepreneurs that you're talking about there in the Twin Cities. And so when you hear when you hear Dave's challenge to move from seeker to sender, what does that mean to you? What does that practically look like for you in your context? Give us a little texture around seeker to sender.
Certainly. So being one myself, coming into faith at a late age, at 27, had a supernatural experience with the Father. I got a baby, I'm Isaac and Jacob, and no one else could tell me otherwise, and it changed me from the inside out. And for the last 16 years, I've been running in any way possible to help other people figure out what God has called them to do. So as a seeker, just, you you have that on your heart that there's something else out there, and you may not know.
Chris (21:41.026)
how to change or where to go to get the help to do so. So one of the things I get to do is I'm a church planter. We just launched a church here four weeks ago in St. Paul, which is part of the Twin Cities. And then also we had, launched a year ago, a church in downtown Minneapolis, two different demographics. One in downtown is what we would say off the block in our city. Where a lot of extracurricular activities are actually happening at.
And in our St. Paul location, it's more of a middle-class, upper-class neighborhood. So I'm a church planner and then a pastor. Also, I get the opportunity to lead Link Twin Cities. Link is a national organization. We have nine cities across the nation. And the hope for that is how do we help local grassroots leaders create their God-given visions? And what we do is we work with church planners, entrepreneurial leaders, as well as nonprofit founders, and help them to create what God is.
Wanting them to do also I know right also I may I teach at a high school here locally in it's what city is called Hope Academy It's a inner city Christian school. It's actually on one of the darkest blocks in our community. It's a K through 12th grade. I work with ninth through 12th graders are going to teach elective class and I'm called community action and I get to teach them how to create a nonprofit to make a difference in their community So everything that I'm about everything I do Is how do we create gospel saturation?
How do we help people figure out what they're called to do, help them discover purpose, help them cultivate it, and then give them the opportunity to showcase their gifts, their purpose to humanity is really what I'm all about.
I love that man. I think you also have to figure out how to take a nap every once in while. Like you got a lot going on.
Chris (23:26.574)
You know, the coolest part is I have a great team. You know, we talk about Seeker to Sender. My heart is raising up leaders, disciples that make disciples that make disciples. So my job is a lot easier of just teaching and training. And I have a slew of leaders in the church, also with our with LinkedIn cities. And then I get to raise leaders in high school. So it really makes your job easier when you raise up leaders that actually help you in their gifting along with your gifting and how you can
create gospel saturation. So yeah, I sleep well.
Yeah, okay, good. And speaking of that, you have this kind of methodology where you're talking about train, equip, release this process that you use, just unpack those stages for us and tell us kind of what they mean, what they actually look like with maybe some real world examples in your context.
Certainly. So the one scripture that Jesus gives us, in Matthew is, and make disciples. All authority has been given unto me, now therefore go and make disciples, teaching of what I taught you, baptizing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So everything I get to do, or my DNA is set up in such a way, if you're around me, we're gonna raise you. If you wanna be in the worlds that I get to be a part of, or if you feel as if you can add value, or you wanna add value, just don't know how,
My job, I believe, just all ministers' jobs is to raise up leaders and training them in what it is that God has called them specifically to do. So whatever gifting they have, our job as ministers, I believe, is to help pull out of them what God has already placed within them. So train them in their gifting. Train them in, obviously, biblical knowledge and understanding scripture for themselves. that allows God to help them walk out their purpose. And as a leader, we're supposed to see that. So we train them in that, in the word
Chris (25:11.724)
get them serving at some level, at somehow, in whatever capacity they can, in the church, outside the church, community work, in their home, as a father, as a mother, as a husband, as a wife, whatever, serve in your capacity, and then we equip them once we understand what their purpose is. So once we start walking with them and understanding, okay, God, we see what you're doing, how do we come alongside them and equip them and give them serving opportunities?
So, let me back up a little bit. The scripture says that our job as the church, apostles, preachers, teachers, evangelists, and prophets is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. thing about it is that everyone's not called to the five-fold ministry. Everyone's not called to be on stage or to do whatever in the church building, but everyone's called to be a minister. The definition of a minister is somebody who aids, cares, and assists people. So, everyone is called to do something.
And our job as leaders in the church, that's the purpose of the church in my heart is how do we help everyday people figure out what their gifting and calling is. So once we can connect with you, we train you, then we give you opportunity to kind of what I call opportunity of fail. So giving you a safe space to really learn your gifting. Especially if you say you want to do something in the church, we're going to really be kind of a little harder on you and what life looks like outside of the church for you. then so train, equip and then release.
It may not be in the church. It may not be in my church. It may not be what I think it might look like, but allowing God to allow them to walk out their purpose wherever that might be in the church, outside the church, at someone else's church. I think a challenge for a lot of us pastors is releasing the ones that we get to raise up. So train, equip, and release, pulling a lot of people what God has put in them and let them do what God called them to do.
That's really great. And you know, what's what's interesting is that you, you said you're a little bit of student of history earlier on. And you know, I just got to drop this in, you know, one of the things that has happened historically in the church in America, with that, that fivefold ministry that you talked about is that the apostles and the prophets and the evangelists, the church, somewhere along the way got kind of uncomfortable with those folks. And they said, we'll take the shepherds and teachers.
Derek (27:32.024)
But man, don't know if we need those folks in the church. They're a little disruptive. And actually, a lot of the parachurch organizations that happened in our country back in the 50s, 60s, 70s happened, I think, as a result of the church kind of releasing its responsibility.
to have all of those fivefold ministries represented kind of as a part of the church. And so I just really love what you're doing and that, you know, this isn't something that's necessarily existing away from the church. This is something that you as a pastor, as a church leader saying, the church needs to be about all of this stuff, even if it's a nonprofit that exists outside the church, the church is still kind of functioning as a launching pad for those folks. And I think that's just such a powerful lesson for us because sometimes pastors don't know what to do with those folks that are
little bit disruptive. And it's like, man, but what if you'd released them to do what God called them to do? And then the church could benefit from all of that incredible work.
Agreed. think the biggest pain point, well, it's not maybe the biggest pain point, but a pain point for a pastor is someone coming up to him and saying, Hey, pastor, why aren't we doing this? And instead of, you know, taking on the initiative of trying to do something that someone else feels as if needs to be done, you put it back on them and say, well, God, if that's on your heart, then most likely God has placed it on your heart to do. We may not be doing it in the church body. However, link
can offer the training support for someone like that. And that's a big part for us is that how do we help those everyday people create something for God, either through nonprofit church planning or even on entrepreneurial social, social entrepreneurship.
Derek (29:13.44)
I love that. I want to I want to bring it back to the individual here. You're talking about working with folks and, and taking them through this train equip and release process. Can you talk about like, what are some early like, get us right down to the grassroots? What are some early indicators that tell you that maybe somebody's ready to be sent out or ready to be released as an everyday missionary?
You know, we think about how Jesus did it. He kept sending them out and having them come back and reestablish and reassess what it was that they did as they were out and to gain wisdom to go back out. I think once someone has biblical knowledge of what their purpose is and understand that Jesus Christ is with them no matter where they go, you start sending them to try to try what it is they believe God is calling them to do. What we do with Link is we get the opportunity to walk with them for seven weeks.
We do a three hour training once a week for seven weeks and we really just flush out the vision. What does God calling you to do? We narrow it down to a one person. if you're, a lot of times people say, well, I want to help you from 14 to 18 out. Well, what does that one person look like? Like who is that person? Dream up a scenario and usually it's the person. Usually they think of themselves at that age because that's why they're creating a ministry because they had the challenge that they had went through and didn't get help. And now they want to help people in that same scenario.
So we really break it down to who is your one person and really help them draw that out through that seven weeks. And then we give them training through marketing. How do you do a pitch? How do you get fundraising if it's a nonprofit? But really just, I think, allowing people to try. And I think that the church is supposed to be a safe space for people to try things, even if it's not in the church service on a Sunday. However, it could be a ministry they create that they try out and pilot.
and tweak and change. So to answer your question, think just letting people get out there, once they get an understanding of, this is the direction I want to go in, this is what I believe is called, is calling me to do, once they get a coach to walk alongside them and support them in that, think just letting them go and try it as soon as, as soon as they get an understanding of, hey, this is the direction I want to walk in.
Derek (31:19.118)
Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. And I think the pressure a lot of the pastors feel is, you know, we have to endorse all of these things it has, we have to announce them all on a Sunday morning, whatever. you're, I like that approach, because you're just saying, hey, let them let them go on show before you're making any endorsements or whatever. Give them some coaching, let them try some stuff, come back, report back. Let's talk about it. That's kind of that's absolutely the model that Jesus used. Yeah, I love that. So hey, listen, in your work with link, you talk about helping people start
nonprofits, some neighborhood initiatives, small businesses that are rooted in the Gospels. What have you learned as you're kind of working through those spaces? Again, a lot of church leaders listening are working in the church. They're not necessarily in those spaces. What have you learned about being and really unleashing everyday missionaries into those kinds of spaces?
One I've learned through our training is community is very important. You know, you have a group of people that say, hey, I want to try something, they feel siloed, don't, people may not understand, like, why would you want to do that? And especially when God is giving you something like we think about Noah, why would you want to go build an ark? And so you may not have a community of people around you that, you know, encourage you to say, know, I get it when God gives you something to do, some people may not understand it. So the community one,
of gathering people that are like-minded, that just want to try something for God is huge. That's like probably the biggest takeaway I've seen in the few cohorts that we've done. We've walked with the last year 45 local leaders or local missionaries, what we call them. And I think the biggest thing is that they get to see that someone cares about them. Our motto at Link is no leader walks alone. No leader walks alone. if it's from
Hmm.
Chris (33:06.542)
You know a local leader that wants to do something for recovery or sex trafficking or homelessness We have a large homeless population here unhoused population here in the Twin Cities From doing youth programs for some of our unserved communities. We have a community called little projects This is a Native American community here in the Twin Cities one of one of its only type of projects in the country That we have a lady that does tutoring after school for some of the kids
So the things I've learned is the community. People feel siloed. People feel alone. People feel like I'm not good enough to do what God has called me to do. In reality, God uses the weak to do great things. And so we just got to allow them to be mobilized and give them a community of people to do that in. And hopefully that answers your question.
That's great. Yeah, God has a steady track record of using very unexpected people to do incredible things.
I think a lot of times as a church, we wait for the superstar. We wait for that one that can do everything. They can speak, they can preach, they know the scriptures, they can mobilize. And the scriptures are just many parts of one body. so we just got to allow, you know, there's a model or a thought that goes around saying instead of being a herd of elephants in a city, we need to be an infestation of mice.
There.
Chris (34:31.15)
because the mice get in everything. And for the gospel, we got to send regular people out to get into the avenues and the highways and the byways that most elephants or large leaders wouldn't be able to fit in.
That's really good. Yeah. So I was in a teaching a calling class just this week and somebody said this phrase as they were talking about what God had has called them to they were feeling that a little bit of that insecurity as well just going all this is my part to play is so small. And they said, they said this sentence I thought was so profound, they said, but I've realized that the small things are the big things. And I thought that man that is so true. That's such a good word.
that, you know, we always think big and better and all that kind of stuff. But the small things are the big things when it comes down to just walking out your calling. You may agree. Strong. So I reference this a little bit earlier on, but I think one of the things that pastors and church leaders can face and fear even is when we send people out, it's the fear of losing them.
And you know that this is this is a person that got entrusted to me and if I send them out that means that I don't I don't get them anymore, you know and and I would just ask you you do this all the time you 45 people this I've been that's that's really incredible How when you how can churches church leaders? celebrate multiplication Without fearing subtraction, how can we do a better job at getting around our mindset?
I think it's just being like Jesus.
Derek (36:04.972)
Yeah. Imagine that.
Imagine that. My wife reminds me all the time as a pastor that not yours. People are not yours. They're God's. And if this is the place where they need to be to grow, that's awesome. If not, that's awesome as well. I think for me, starting off in ministry, I understood that. I've been a part of three different churches in the last 16 years. And every church I've been a part of, I always thought I was going to be there forever.
And for whatever reason, God seen it different where it wasn't where I wanted to go. God kind of had to squeeze me out of different churches as a volunteer. You know, I just started working recently as a pastor, but and so it's been ingrained in my DNA that nothing lasts forever. And again, the model train, equip and release, I've been a part of ministries where it was very difficult in the time when God was trying to release me for my leader to allow me to go. And so I've learned
Hmm.
Chris (37:06.446)
And in my own experience, that is part of the body of Christ that we have to allow people to find out where they need to be at. even if it was a good decision or a bad decision, it's an experience they have to encounter for themselves and hopefully that helps them grow as a leader. So to answer your question, I think it's just being OK with what God has you over. And if they're supposed to be there, they'll stay. And if not, that's a good thing as well. I think we just got to get it wrapped around it as leaders and pastors that
People need to go where they need to be at.
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, just as you were talking, the framework came into my mind, I think, is Dave Ferguson, who wrote the book Hero Maker, you know, but the big challenges are, do you want to be the hero or do you want to be the hero maker? And I think this idea of letting people lose to multiply ministry, you know, is more of a hero maker mentality that I don't need to be the man, I don't need to be the one, you know, that's building the empire here, I want to create.
My own here, you know their own heroes And maybe one day they'll point back and say man one of my spiritual fathers You know released me into this work and and that's the payoff, you know, that's the payoff having multiplied that impact
We'll see it in eternity. And you get to be a part of every person that they connected with, every person they led the crisis, part of what's your legacy as well for the kingdom of God. And I think once we start getting away from the thought of where we are on the earthly plane of more of speaking or thinking eternal and allowing God just to do what He wants to do in the moments that we get to be here on earth.
Derek (38:46.54)
Yeah, that's a good that's a good word. So I know many church leaders probably resonate with the sending vision, we want to be sending, you know, leaders. But sometimes we don't know where to start. And so I would just, would you just advise us be our be our coach for a minute and just say, like, if we were to start a small low risk kind of experiment?
that a church could run over the next six months to begin shifting from seeker to sender? Like, how would you advise us or encourage us?
I would think obviously running some type of discipleship program, which most churches do, and really raising up leaders in their own context and finding out what it is that they want to do. And I think when we think about discipleship, we think of programs, and we all know that programs don't make disciples, people make disciples. And so really putting in the work and having leaders that are okay with getting dirty. And sometimes, you know, I've been a part of leadership trainings or part of churches where the pastor with the
Yeah.
Chris (39:49.848)
pastor would say, well, that person doesn't look like a leader. And I think once we get our mind around of, well, what is a leader? You know, the scripture says that as man judges the outward appearance, only God can judge the heart of man. So as you get close to people and really get to hear their heart of, well, what is it they're trying to do? So are you going to take the time as a church leader or a disciple maker to walk alongside that person, not just in a program, but in life?
And I think it goes back to what is biblical. know, Jesus always asked his disciples, if you don't want to be here, you don't have to be here. But if you're going to be here, we're going to do life together. We're going to live together. And I'm not saying you got to move people in, but we have to be intentional about raising up leaders where they are. I know that's not kind of the answer to your question, but that's where it starts. Is are we taking our discipleship seriously when we raise up disciples as well?
Right.
Derek (40:41.336)
Yeah.
Chris (40:46.868)
And then the next step is once you kind of see what they're gifted in, allowing them to, you know, it's not where you got to promote it, but if you've been discipling them, you understand their heart, you understand that they're trying to do something for the kingdom. Then you allow them to start maybe doing a small group. Hey, I've done small groups in bars. I know that might sound little different for some people, but it wasn't where we're going to drink in, but it was a place where I can meet people where they were. I've done small groups.
as a workout, I used to do a workout Bible study where we go workout first and then have a Bible study afterwards. So thinking of allowing people to kind of run in the avenue that they see that they can reach the people that they know in their atmosphere and their influence in their world and allowing them to do small groups in that way. it's not that you got to promote it. It's up to them to talk to people through relationship. It's just like when someone needs to move.
The church isn't from the platform saying, sister, so-and-so need help moving. Hopefully they've already created a community within the church that say, Hey, and they've been talking to people and they're in as part of their family culture now in the church that they're going to help them move. And it's the same thing with small groups. would start with, you know, obviously discipling, raising them up, and then giving them opportunity to do like a small group within the church. And then as a small group grows, it may be something that the church adds to what they actually provide as a church.
Yeah, yeah, I want to circle back, you gave us a really profound answer there. I honestly think where you started that answer is the baby step that most of us need to hear because honestly, and it even struck me as you were talking earlier, when you were talking about your train equip release process, what you said about train
was different than what I expected. And let me say it this way. You when I think of train, I think of taking things that I know and downloading them into this other person. When you talked about train, you said you need to train them and what they want to do. And I think that honestly is a shift, Chris, that you're probably doing that that is come come so naturally to you that you don't even know that you're doing it. But to me, that is
Derek (42:56.844)
the missing piece among a lot of church leaders because I'm not sure everybody knows how to unlock what's already in somebody and to get curious enough and open minded enough to say, are you? How are you made? What does God want to do in and through you? And let me help you uncover that and then set you loose to do that. And so I would say I feel like that's probably a superpower of yours. Because as I've heard you mention it throughout as we go,
Can you just like take us into one of those conversations? Like you said, you've walked through, you know, 45 people or so and maybe not you personally, but your team or whatever. But like, does a conversation look like when you're getting curious about what a person might want to do? Like, do you have questions that you ask? Do you have, and again, you might do it so naturally that you don't even have a process for it.
But can you take us into the conversation like that and just say, what does that look like for you?
Certainly. And I guess the reason why it is that way is because I guess I came into ministry that way. So I was 27 when I came to faith. Before that, never read the Bible. I never attended a church. I had a supernatural experience, a real experience or encounter with God, and it just shifted me. There's this quote by Dr. Un, and I say that to say that I've never been pushing back on church culture.
as I've been a part of different churches, but it was always in back of my mind, well, what are we doing to raise the leaders? Yeah, I get it. The East Egg Hunt is amazing. I get it. We get to do the, through the production, that's amazing, whatever that looks like, but how we're raising leaders, there's this quote by Dr. Myles Monroe. He had the largest church in the Bahamas, who died recently. And he says, most tragic thing in life is not death. The most tragic thing in life is life without a purpose, because it's better to be dead and not know life than it is to be alive and not know your purpose.
Chris (44:56.824)
So my whole, and I guess I'm a disciple of Dr. Mosman Rowe without ever meeting him. And that's my goal in life is helping people say, what is your purpose? What has called created you and designed you to be? And what comes easy to you that no one else is, it does come easy. Matter of fact, when you see other people doing what your purpose is, usually you look at them like they're crazy, there's something wrong with them. I got five different solutions for that one thing they're trying to figure out. And I know I could do it better.
And so my whole design in life is how do we help people discover purpose? How do we help them cultivate it, meaning help them grow it, and then again, help them showcase it to humanity. And my whole style of leadership and disciple making is getting in their world, getting in their world, having conversations with them. And that could be, what, you know, like a first date, what do you do for fun? What is it that drives you? What would you do for free?
So even when I go into the high school, that's one of the things that really helped them see is like your calling is usually something that you're already gifted in. And it's usually something you have fun doing. And it's usually something you will go do for free if you've seen the opportunity for it. And so walk with local leaders. And as a pastor, I get the opportunity within the church context, if you say you want to speak or you want to sing or you want to, you know, we have, we do different events that allow them to have practice within that.
so the conversation would be just asking them, what is it that you like doing? And then watching them like a good pastor, like a good lead, like a good spiritual father and seeing, okay, I see you doing this and you say you want to preach, but it looks like you're really good with kids. Like your, your energy level just spikes in that moment. Maybe you need to be in kids ministry and let's put you there for a season. And one of the things I've gotten to do as a leader, I've gotten to serve in a variety. was a youth pastor. I was a parking lot attendant.
Rain, sleet or snow, indoor 40 below, we're going to be out here. Intern director, outreach director, campus pastor, guest services leader. And now I'm a church planner. So I've been able to experience different parts of the ministry. And I believe that the church offers something for everybody. It's just what are you trying to gain in the moment as a guest services person? As you're waving, as people coming in, are you creating relationships in that moment?
Chris (47:20.526)
And you get kind of see as, you know, when you start placing people in different positions and volunteering, you can see where their energy ramps up at. And from that, you can kind of help, you know, dive deeper in that, whatever that is for them. So it's not just questions. I think it's life. I think it's just doing life with people. And you care so much about them. And obviously you can't do, you know, 100 people at one time, but you can do a few at a time. And I think that's what it needs to go back to is what is biblical?
Yeah.
Chris (47:48.43)
You know, what is the scripture say? And versus us trying to create a church culture, which I get, not straying away from that, but we got to go back to, what does Jesus say we should be doing with the people that he's bringing us? Is it just allow them to be consumers in the seats? Or is it having teams around you that are help pulling out of people with God as place within them? And when I think about every position that I have, you're the pastor of that position. So if you're leading a greeting team, you're the pastor of that position. you're,
whatever department you're leading, you're the pastor of. So to answer your question, it's doing.
It's so good, man. it is, you that you hit on something. The formal name of this thing is the priesthood of all believers. That's what it comes back to. But we started calling it around here the pastorhood of all believers, because we're a Protestant thing. And so we don't necessarily have priests anymore. And so that word goes over people's head. But what you just said, like, every believer who steps into their calling is called to be a pastor of something. And I think that's profound. And I think, Chris, you named it the big shift, I think, for so many
leaders is to get in people's world and to get curious about what God's already doing in there. So often we're asking people to come do something for us, like you come fill this spot. And I think the shift that you just named is to go, hey, God made you to be a certain way. you know, enter their world and get curious about what he's up to. I love that. And so I've got one last question for you. Just think big picture, think prophetic, think future, think...
down the road for a second, if we look, look, imagine the next reformation for the church. And what do you what do you hope it looks like 10 years from now if churches across America would kind of live into this idea of being a sending center and not just a place where seekers come and attend.
Chris (49:43.19)
I think it boils down to is what you're creating as a church going to survive? Not you, but in general. there's a stat that we know that 16 % of churches are growing in our nation, 15 of which are just people transferring churches. 1 % of the church is growing due to conversion. The one thing Jesus commissioned us to do, for whatever reason, the church is having a hard time figuring that out because we don't want to get dirty.
And that's the only way that we can raise up leaders. That's the only way we can make disciples that make disciples that make disciples is disciplining ourselves first to work with those that may not look like a leader, those that may not come from church culture, like a David, like a Moses, right? And like a Noah, you know, working with these people that they have big dreams and big visions of what God has placed on our heart, but are we willing to get dirty to do it? And I think it's really just what I see
is in order for the church to survive as a brook and mortar over the next 60, 70 years, is making sure that we go back to the basics and just raise up local people, raise up people around us. The scripture says that when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you should receive power to be a witness, not to talk about how deep theology you are or talk about how anointed you are or how gifted you are. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to be a witness to those around you.
everywhere you go. And I think we have to, I know, I believe that we have to get back to the basics of what is the church. The church are the people, it's not the building. The church are people coming together and communing together and talking about how good God is and then also walking out the rest of the week, bringing people back to the church to get revived for another week of raising up leaders. And I think that's what we have to get to. We have to get dirty. We're made out of dirt.
Right. And we have to get dirty and work with people no matter what, where they might be coming from. And the thing about it is that God uses those that we don't think to be used. And if we're not willing to get in their world and raise them up and connect with them, they won't get the biblical knowledge. They wouldn't get a spiritual father. They wouldn't get the community. They wouldn't get the love that Jesus wants for them because us as the body of Christ is saying, no, that part of the body I don't want to deal with, but we need all the body.
Chris (52:09.762)
to fulfill the destiny that God has for all of us in our cities as well in our communities. Disciple making.
do it. I love it, man. Profound conversation. Thank you so much, Chris, for taking the time to be with us. We're cheering you on from over here in Pennsylvania in the Twin Cities and pray that God will continue to move and work through you. Thanks so much for joining us.
Honored. Thank you for the opportunity.
Danielle (52:39.894)
Okay, that was great. Hopefully you guys find that helpful. Let's move on right now to our segment where we talk about what's going on at Grace in real time as we're reinventing church. This is our Behind the Curtain segment. And you had an idea for what to talk about today about development roles.
Yeah, so, you know if people have been listening this podcast, you know that we're making shifts from like being a Kind of a strictly teaching center to being a training center and what what that all means and look like looks like and the more We've gotten into these waters. It's like man There's there's a lot of different ways to to to handle groups of people that are coming for different kinds of right learning and instruction and The more we're gonna and again, we have to protect against our
tendency to over complicate things. And so sometimes we can over complicate these things, but we are trying to really name because we want all of these environments to be awesome.
And the whole idea is because you've said this before, like, and Dave, think, said this. What if we put as much or more effort into being training as we do to when we're doing teaching and doing Sundays and all those kinds of things? And this is an output of that mind work.
Exactly. And so really what Scott has done, who's kind of really heading up our training and development center kind of thing, is put these five types of development roles. And again, we're kind of talking about it this week, which is, I thought, a good behind the curtain thing. But really broke it down into there are teachers, there are facilitators, there are trainers, there are coaches, and there are mentors.
Derek (54:20.642)
we want to have people in all of those categories around our church so that they can kind of dip in and dip out of things that we're doing at appropriate levels. you know, realizing even in my own story, being a good teacher doesn't mean that you're a good trainer. Right. And being a good facilitator doesn't mean you're a good trainer. Right. Or vice versa. Being a good trainer doesn't necessarily mean you're a good teacher. And so trying to kind of hone down those roles and skills,
I think is some important work that we're doing right now. We don't have it all figured out, but we are kind of gathering together some names and lists of people that we think have skills in each of these arenas that can help at different levels. And so I'll just give a quick overview. Teacher is we're saying these are people who are good at transferring conceptual knowledge. And so the rooms are often a little bit bigger. bigger rooms. Facilitator is somebody who can enable group learning.
bigger.
Derek (55:17.838)
And so they're not doing much of the content delivery. It's more pulling out of the group. Training is building practical competencies. And so this is the skill building. So people who can develop exercises and tools and train a specific skill through those means. A coach then is someone who guides a self-discovery process. so coaches are very good at asking questions and pulling what's inside of a person out of that person. That's a coach.
And then a mentor is somebody who shares seasoned wisdom. And so it's smaller, so it's a little bit more one on one or one on two or three. And the mentor is really kind of a source of wisdom that can help people with like real life moments, real life decisions, and can offer good godly counsel at that time. So we're just saying, hey, the church needs all of those roles to be active, especially with where we're going.
Ultimate desire would be to keep the teachers teaching and to keep the trainers training and keep the facilitators facilitating and not try to get people out of their element.
Oh yeah, and I think this totally, yeah, will hopefully force that. Because I think in the past we may have done a thing where it was like, okay, everyone level up. And not that there's anything wrong with that, because you can still do that obviously. But we need everyone to get 20 % better at coaching, 20 % better at training, 20 % or whatever. And then it also just continues to give away ministry. We can't do it.
Right, exactly. And I think what we're facing right now too is just to go, okay, well how do we get some best practices in each of these areas and how do we help train, you know, specifically trainers to be great trainers and how do we train facilitators to be great facilitators. And so it'll help us to kind of narrow even some of our development practices.
Danielle (57:10.23)
Even them speaking into the development of the future. it's gonna be great. That's great. Yeah, we can maybe include that chart too. Yeah. you're interested. Okay, let's move on to our last segment, tips and tools. You have this really cool, now this is from, it's now to next, it's from which? Intentional friend. Intentional friend, that's right. All right, so let's talk through the origin of this and.
So I'm excited about that.
Yep, sure can.
Derek (57:34.54)
Yeah, so, you know, as we as we developed our intentional friend, which is one of our four dream disciple roles, as we develop the master training, really our master trainings are a collection of tools and exercises that are going to help people to be better friends. And so this is just a very simple one. When we talked about creating those trainings, we talked about the ideas that we want to create this six week master training. But within that training, there are, you know, 25 or 30
exercises, or things that we're doing during those six weeks. And then we want to use that then as our kind of master library that we can then pull down little tools into different rooms that we're in. So if we want to do a staff training on intentional friend, we're not going to take, we're not going to do the whole six week course and a staff meeting, but we can pull one of those tools down and say, here's one of the things that we learn in this intentional friend course. so
and then we can pull them into our worship services. So I'm just demonstrating, we can pull one into a podcast right here. So this is one of the tools that we use. On the week that we talk about, one of the ways to be an intentional friend is to pray for them. And so we train through a series of different kind of praying that somebody can do for their friend. This is the simplest of all of them. It's called the now to next prayer. And it's based on this idea that God finishes what he starts.
You know, Paul says, you'll be confident of this, that he who began to go to work will carry it on to completion till the day. So it's again, this idea that when God starts a friendship or when God starts you praying for a friend, God is gonna carry that on to completion. And this little prayer tool helps you to think about that. And so it starts with the now, and we basically just have a little chart. There's a now and a column underneath it and a next and a column underneath it and an arrow between those two.
And in the now column, we just say, write two or three words that describe that friend's current season. So where are they right now? And just some things that you've observed about them, what's happening in their family, what's happening in their work life, are they struggling, are they thriving, are they... And just write some words that describe their now. Then that arrow represents breakthrough or transformation in the middle. And again, this is kind of almost a prophetic, just saying, what would it look like?
Derek (59:50.958)
for breakthrough to happen for that friend. And now we're moving our mind into going, what could be under that next column for them? And so we put some words and phrases down there. What's next for their growth? is there a new character quality that God might wanna develop in them? What's next for their relationship? Are there some new connections maybe that God might bring into their life? What's next for their influence? Like, where could they impact other people that in the spheres that they're in or whatever?
And then you just make that and you pray it out a next prayer that just says, God, here's where they are right now. And God, I'm praying this as their next. I pray that you'd bring breakthrough or transformation so that they could walk into this next phase of their life. And I think it's just, again, God finishes what he starts. And so we're just praying for God to begin to finish that work that he began in them. And so again, simple framework, simple tool, but I'll include it in the email follow up to this.
That's awesome. Love it. OK, I think that's it for today. If you have any Thanksgiving recipes, please send them in. If you like this episode, tell us by leaving a rating and review. And again, as always, please share this with someone if you think it would be beneficial. You can find detailed show notes and related resources at derekstanford.com forward slash reinventing church. And that's where you can also subscribe to his weekly newsletter, get all the latest free tools and posts and recipes. Thanks for joining us.
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