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Join Libo Li, a data engineer at Meta, as he delves into his unconventional career journey from architecture to tech. Discover how his natural curiosity and drive for growth propelled him through various roles at companies like WeWork and AAC Resource. Libo shares insights on embracing fear as a signal for growth, the value of continuous learning, and thriving in chaotic environments. Whether it's discussing effective communication or exploring side projects, Libo's story offers motivating takeaways for anyone looking to navigate and explore diverse career paths.
Highlights:
Highlights:
- 3 words: Curious, Irreverent, and Gritty
- Embrace Growth: Transitioning between roles and industries can lead to significant personal and professional development.
- Curiosity as a Driver: A natural curiosity can propel individuals to explore new opportunities and learn from diverse experiences.
- Importance of Adaptability: Being open to new experiences and learning quickly on the job is crucial for success in tech and beyond.
- Communication is Key: Whether in architecture or data engineering, clear documentation and effective communication are vital.
- Fear and Growth: Facing fear and embracing chaos can lead to valuable learning experiences and growth opportunities.
See more:
https://www.instagram.com/most.podern/
Guest Bio:
Libo Li is a trained architect working as a data engineer in New York City. He received a Bachelor of Architecture from Rice University. His focus is on the impact of data and technology on design production, building software, systems, and operational models at companies like KPF, WeWork, CBRE, and Meta. He was COO of Voyansi, a BIM solutions company recently acquired by Hexagon. He was CTO at KatalsyDI, where he lead the technology team building the analytics platform to integrate construction supply chains. He co-founder Small Tiger to empower architecture firms with modern digital operations; where he works with emerging firms to question how they work to scale their agency.
Creators and Guests
What is Tangents by Out of Architecture?
Welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture, hosted by Silvia Lee. We’re highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we’ve met along our journey. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Out of Architecture is a career consulting firm started by two Harvard-educated professionals interested in exploring the value of their skills both in and out of the architectural profession. We’re here to help you maximize all of the expertise you have honed as a designer to get you a role that fulfills and challenges you. We have the knowledge, experience, and connections to help you put your best self into the market–and reap the benefits.
Ep 8: Libo Li
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Libo: [00:00:00] one thing that I really look for in a place that I work at is when people who are naturally curious, people who try to Move the mission forward, ~uh,~ any way that they can, ~um,~ but at the same time being in an environment where I'm exposed to a lot of different things, and I'm challenged in a way that forces me to grow as fast as I can
Silvia: welcome to Tangents by Out of Architecture.
Out of Architecture is a career resource network helping designers apply their incredible talents in untraditional ways. We're highlighting some of our favorite stories from the amazing people we've met along the way. We will hear how they created a unique career path for themselves from the wide variety of skills and talents they developed in and out of architecture.
Our guest today is Libo Lee, data engineer at Meta and host of the most modern podcast. Libo shares great insights on leaning into fear [00:01:00] and chasing growth as a way to navigate through one's career journey. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
~Okay. And, uh, can you say your full name for me? ~
Libo: ~Libo Lee. ~
Silvia: ~Great. And ~welcome to Tangents Libo. ~Uh,~ our favorite question to get started is how would you describe yourself in three words?
Libo: Ooh, three words. That's pretty limiting. Um,~ Um,~
~uh, ~I guess I would probably say curious, irreverent, and gritty.
Silvia: Awesome. I'm really excited to hear more about all of them, including Gritty. That's a new one we haven't had. And what is your background in architecture?
Libo: Yeah, so I went to architecture school at Rice. ~Um,~ that they're, I guess it's a six year program. ~Um,~ I don't have, ~I guess,~ an advanced degree in architecture.
~Um, when I got out of school, I Well, ~at Rice, ~uh,~ we had what's called a program, ~um,~ so that's where after four years, you go work for a year and then come back for the final year. So that's why the traditional five years is a sixth year. So I worked at KPF for my preceptorship year. And then when I graduated, I worked at a small boutique firm called [00:02:00] Kaza.
And that's I guess generally my, ~uh,~ uh, background in architecture.
Silvia: And the next question is usually what are you up to now, but I think you had a lot of different places between them, so feel free to like share where you're at now and anything in between.
Libo: Yeah, so right now I'm a data engineer at Meta, ~uh,~ working on messaging, ~uh,~ platform services across, ~uh,~ Meta's family of apps.
~Uh,~ getting here was a little bit~ of a, ~of a journey, as you mentioned. ~Um,~ so after Kasa, I went to WeWork, after WeWork, I did some consulting, ~uh,~ which I still do now. ~Um,~ but I also went to CBR Yohana, and then I worked at a BIM outsourcing company, ~uh,~ called AAC Resource that, ~uh,~ we took through a rebrand, it's now called Buoyancy, they recently got acquired by Hexagon.
~Um,~ after that, I went to a startup called, ~um,~ Catalyst DI, where we were trying to build. ~Uh,~ analytics platform for [00:03:00] large, ~uh, ~capital projects, ~um,~ before ultimately ending up here.
Silvia: ~ What,~ was there something you were looking for ~when,~ or what, ~um, kind of ~motivated you to leave one company to another or were you chasing opportunities?
What did that look like?
Libo: I think ultimately I was chasing growth. ~Um,~ one thing that I really look for in a place that I work at is when people who are naturally curious, people who try to Move the mission forward, ~uh,~ any way that they can, ~um,~ but at the same time being in an environment where I'm exposed to a lot of different things, and I'm challenged in a way that forces me to grow as fast as I can.
Silvia: Yeah. Can you give an example of one of those situations in one of the places you've worked at what that looked like?
Libo: Yeah. So, I mean, it happened a lot. ~Um,~ actually, when I was first thinking about leaving architecture,~ I. Um,~ I'm a subscriber to this, ~uh,~ streaming platform called Plex. ~Um,~ I don't know if folks are familiar, but it's basically, you can set up your own Netflix at [00:04:00] home.
~Um, ~I remember they sent an email out that's like, Hey, if you're curious, ~uh,~ to work for us, just send us an email. So I sent this long email being like, Hey, I have no idea what I'm doing, but, ~uh,~ I think I can help if you want, ~uh,~ let me know. ~Um,~ the CTO at the, at Plex was really nice, sent me back an email.
I was like, Hey, you know, let's, ~uh,~ try you for an internship. So I was there for six months and honestly, I had no idea what I was doing. So everything was new to me. ~Um,~ it was everything they handed me. I basically had to learn from scratch. ~Um,~ but it was an incredible opportunity to learn how to do UI design, how to do UX, ~um,~ how to interact with engineering teams and really, ~uh,~ was one of my first.
Exposures to working in a fully remote and asynchronous team. So, you know, it was a bit of learning, not only in the mechanics of doing the job, but also the operational. Aspects of being a part of that kind of team.
Silvia: And your background as an architect, were there any overlaps between the two? ~Um,~ like being in a very new environment and then [00:05:00] just learning on your feet.
~I think I, ~when I was an architect, I felt like I needed to know everything. And that caused me a lot of stress because I felt like I didn't know anything that I needed to. But it also didn't really feel encouraged to not know and just go find out, even though that's ~kind of ~what we were doing in a way, what was your experience like?
Libo: I think in a way that feels like the, the nature of the culture of the profession, ~um,~ I think the aspect of architecture that I felt had a strong overlap was that go out and learn and find out and do the thing, I think. Throughout school, ~um,~ we weren't really given any dedicated resources to learn things like Rhino, ~uh,~ Photoshop, right, InDesign, ~uh,~ Grasshopper.
It was kind of, if you want to do it, you figure it out on your own. So that's something that I had a lot of experience in coming out of school. And I think working within architecture, I always try to carve out time. To learn things that I was curious in. ~Um,~ so that was something that I tried to do for myself.
[00:06:00] So actually I think moving into,~ um, ~software where there's a bit of a different culture, a bit of a different way of looking at learning, it felt. Like a great match in my mind for, ~uh,~ just, I guess my natural curiosity.
Silvia: Is there anything that was unexpected about,~ um,~ moving? Like when you went to new positions, ~uh,~ either cause you mentioned culture, but anything about like the job or like what you thought it could be. And then we're very surprised by what you were actually doing.
Libo: ~Um, ~*I* think it's a little bit different on a case by case basis, but I think one thing that, ~uh,~ I really enjoy in various different roles is kind of.
Learning ~the~ the role from first principles, right? Like, ~what is~ what are you trying to achieve? How can you get there and what are all the things you need to learn in order to get there? ~Um,~ I found that it was quite a different way of learning and quite a different way of moving as opposed to ~kind of, I guess,~ what we're used to in architecture where it's a little bit more hierarchical.
It's a little bit more tenure focused. ~Um.~ [00:07:00] And a lot of the things that you learn are kind of, we've always done it this way, so this is how we're going to continue to do it. ~Um,~ but I do think that, ~uh,~ each new role I take on, I try to, ~uh,~ look at it from new perspectives, ~uh,~ draw on as many of the enormous amount of resources that are out there, ~uh,~ of different people, different, ~uh,~ folks who have been successful in those roles,~ kind of.~
sharing their learnings and sharing their experience on what works and what doesn't.
Silvia: this is a very broad topic, but are there any resources that you just love looking at? And it doesn't even have to be specific to any one place. I guess like some just good, ~uh,~ resources in general.
Libo: I guess Google and YouTube are the two best ones, but I think depending on what the role is and what.
you're trying to accomplish, there are a lot of niche industry resources for everything out there. So, I guess how I like to describe it is like you need to find the thread to pull on, and [00:08:00] once you find that thread and you keep pulling, there's a lot there. So, part of it is just taking the time to do that exploration, to find those particular things that, ~uh,~ are good resources in whatever you're trying to do.
Silvia: Yeah, ~um,~ I kind of been doing that with like online shopping recently to not buy the products I'll subscribe to like whatever newsletter or like coupons or whatever they have and then after a while Most of them I will immediately unsubscribe like no that I don't want to see more of this but I figure that the ones that stick like I probably want to like Keep tabs on for the future when I like may need this product And like the same for, um, there's a newsletter that I found out through ~like~ the out of architecture slack community called words of mouth.
And I'm not actually even actively looking for a job, but I really like the, ~um, ~different jobs that they're showing. It's like, Oh, I didn't know that this place hires this kind of role or that this kind of job exists. And then it's like, Oh, this is how much this job is worth. So it's weird, but I actually really liked what I'm [00:09:00] seeing from this.
So yeah, ~like ~that's. That's a pretty general resource, but I do like,~ I like,~ Oh, it's a new newsletter of job postings. Let me look at this, which is better than ~like~ looking at a website for job postings. I feel like,
Libo: yeah, it's definitely interesting when you encounter things that give you what you weren't originally looking for.
I think that's always a nice surprise.
Silvia: Yeah. And I usually ask this question later on, but. Because I feel like you have so many different, ~um,~ places in your career journey. ~ Is there any, like what, for you, ~what fills your cup and what, ~uh, like~ doesn't give you energy. So what gives you energy and what doesn't?
And I like this because it kind of like fleshes out the person who is ~the, like, is~ the one behind all of these, ~um,~ different places.
Libo: Yeah, I think what gives me energy is growing. ~Um,~ if I look back at the end of the week, at the end of the month, and I see that I've grown, I've done something that I haven't been able to do before, or I learned something new.
That [00:10:00] always makes me feel very fulfilled. ~Um,~ and I think what doesn't give me energy is, ~um,~ being in a place that's very static, ~um,~ whether that's,~ uh,~ working with people who. don't try to step out of their comfort zone or operating in a way that doesn't look at how the system can be improved. ~Um,~ it ends up being quite frustrating for me.
~Uh,~ and I do think looking back that those moments often precipitated. A decision to move on.
Silvia: And it sounds like it's, is it more so the environment than the role itself?
Libo: I think so. I think you, in a way, right, your work does occupy a significant portion of your life, and it does impact a lot, ~uh, the,~
I guess the general, ~uh,~ health. Of your [00:11:00] life, ~uh,~ both mentally and physically. So I do find that surrounding myself with the right group or being on the right team, doing the right. ~Uh,~ job at the right company,~ uh,~ really makes everything else fall into place a lot easier.
Silvia: Do you have a sense of what those right things for you are? Or was it kind of picked up along the way, like, I learned this from this company, ~like~ what I do and do what I do and don't like and then kind of kept invol evolving that?
Libo: Yeah, so I think one of the major advantages of working at a lot of places is you make a lot of mistakes very quickly and.
Those are often the things that help you learn the most. So I think for me, ~uh,~ it's a little bit of self discovery, I guess. ~Um,~ but I really like working in environments where people are very open to sharing knowledge. ~Um,~ people are have very high expectations of not only [00:12:00] themselves, but also of the team, but in a way that's not interpersonal, right?
Like being surrounded by a group of people who hold themselves to a high standard, but also of each other and how they get there. ~Um,~ I think that makes a really strong working environment.
Silvia: ~ Let's see. Um, do you want to talk more about where you're currently at? I do want to like hear more about that and what like day to day looks like, but, or do you want to dive in more to the different places you've been in or anything specific there? ~
Libo: ~I mean, either way, yeah, wherever you think we should go.~
Silvia: ~Cause, um, and I do also want to touch on at some point, um, like, cause you say you consult and it's just like. Good things to know. We'll start with like good things to know for startups, but like, I'm sure there's like something more specific there. So, um, let's do like, what's a, actually,~ can you tell me about WeWork a little more?
And just because ~like,~ I know people that came out of that WeWork thing, but like, I only know, like, we, Okay, I know George from, ~um,~ Monograph, who's now at Integrated Projects. ~like, what was, like, what,~ why did so many people, cool people, come out of WeWork, I guess, is how I'll phrase it for now.
Libo: Yeah, so I think WeWork was this rare moment where you had a company that had a very,
I guess, what's the best way to describe it? A company with a very standard product, let's say. But building at a intense speed and at an incredible scale. So when I joined WeWork in 2016, I think there was maybe 1, 500 people there. ~Um,~ [00:13:00] by the time I left in 2019, I think it was like 20, 000. So it's a unprecedented pace of growth.
I think the other thing was because of this, they really invested in hiring a lot of people to work on standards, operating processes and tooling. So, ~uh, ~WeWork was able to execute design incredibly fast. And. What I think was unique about it was design was ~kind of~ used as a tool to better understand project outcomes.
So when I joined in the first year, I worked on something like a hundred projects, did something like 600 layouts, which would never happen in a traditional architecture firm. ~Um,~ but not all of those projects went through and that was a good thing. So one of my really distinct memories there was I was.
Taking a stats class from, ~uh,~ one of the data scientists at WeWork. And one of the things he [00:14:00] said was it's a lot less expensive to throw away design than to take over a bad deal. So I think if you look at the entire, ~uh,~ building kind of value chain as a whole, there's probably a lot of waste where we are building a lot of projects that.
Don't have enough due diligence. And by the time they're complete and are bad projects, we've already spent an enormous amount of resources, time, ~um,~ and arrived at something that may not be as successful as it could be. Had we, ~uh,~ done something else.
Silvia: Yeah. That always makes me feel like we think ~like, like~ traditional architecture offices are weird, right?
~Like,~ because they're not actually building. A majority of the buildings that, ~like,~ people operate, live, like, work in, in a way, because,~ like,~ what about, ~like,~ all the other, ~like, um,~ like, Walmarts or, ~like, um,~ fast food chains, ~like,~ schools, ~like, ~all of that, ~like,~ we get all these, ~like,~ fancy projects when we work in big offices that take up so much time and [00:15:00] effort, but the rest of the world still needs buildings, too, and I feel ~like, and, like,~ all the people that ~Um,~ are involved in the building process, like people that have to approve permits or like, like admin people, there's so many people that touch like a building in general that I don't know why in like an architecture office, we think we're like, it's like gods almost.
Libo: I think that honestly has to do a lot, probably with the education and the culture in these offices. ~Um,~ one of the things that was a little frustrating for me while working in architecture is that. I think at the end of the day is a service, right? Like you're a service provider to the client that cutting your check.
~Um,~ but working within the offices, there's a lot of conflicting opinions and it seems like there is a lack of respect for the opinions and the needs of the client, which I felt were one quite counterproductive, but to really wasteful, ~um,~ I think we spend a lot of time producing. things for internal stakeholders that [00:16:00] don't ultimately contribute value to the end user.
Silvia: And then at a place like WeWork, when you have to build so many projects at a time, like you'd ~kind of like~ cut all those emotions and thoughts out very quickly, it sounds like?
Libo: There's no time. But ultimately, because everything was in house, ~you are, ~you're ultimately very close to the performative outcome you're trying to achieve.
So at WeWork, there was You know, two things that really matter. One was how many desks you can put in a project, which ultimately translates to how much you can charge, ~um,~ which ultimately contributes to the success of the eventual project, but also, ~um,~ the ability for sales to fill projects before they're complete.
So I remember, I think one of the targets we had while we were there is that we works wanted to be 80%. Occupied within three months of opening, which means you had to do a lot of pre selling before the project is ~even, uh,~ even started, but, ~uh,~ it gave you very clear goals [00:17:00] to accomplish with your design.
If your design is not. Hitting, ~uh,~ the right occupancy ratio. If your, ~uh,~ design ~is not, uh, ~doesn't have the right mix to be sold very quickly, then it just doesn't perform. Right. So you don't have to go through these layers of. I guess administrative approvals only to not hit your target.
Silvia: ~ What do you think one of the, um, what are like,~ what are, were some takeaways you took from WeWork moving on in your career?
Libo: I think the big takeaway is like the world's huge and there's a lot out there. ~Um,~ at WeWork I went through several different roles and I think in each one I saw the company and the project process in a new perspective. ~Um,~ I think that's. In a way, something that really motivates me to continue to take on new roles and to do be hands on doing new things because I think once you're in the mindset of a particular role or particular profession and you're going through the motions of doing that job, it [00:18:00] does give you a different way of looking at the same problem.
And I think there was a lot of times where I have looked at problems in a very one dimensional way. ~Uh,~ and when I step back from that and look at it in a new way, I discovered that what I had originally thought was just Incredibly naive and, um, in a way uneducated and broadening that perspective has been something that I feel has given me,~ uh, ~a better ability to think about problems from different angles.
Silvia: Yeah,~ how, like, uh, is, ~how did you move through so many, ~uh,~ roles, even within a company? ~Like,~ is it just because, well actually I, I don't even know, but ~like,~ one thing I am familiar with is that in an architectural office, it's like, there are some things you cannot replace with experience, like, you can't foresee everything on a project, especially if you don't have the experience of prior projects.
But if I'm moving so slowly through projects, like one new one every, Two or three [00:19:00] years. ~It's like,~ it just feels like you feel that length of time. It'll take, you see why people are there doing the same job for 20 years. ~So like how, and I,~ that sounds great. Like, you know, get different perspectives from different roles for you.
Why do you think you like, is it just through growth? You're looking for growth.
Libo: Yeah. I think, ~uh,~ it's always, I always feel like I'm growing faster when I am dropped in an environment that I'm completely unfamiliar with it kind of, it's that forced, uh, I guess, sense of survival and adaptation, ~um, ~that is one really nerve wracking, but two really fulfilling once you kind of climb over that cliff.
~Um,~ I think the second thing is that, ~uh, ~I think, I don't know, like in speaking with a lot of people, there is. In a way, like a natural barrier, I think, when you've invested a lot of your time into one thing ~in order to,~ and then, ~uh,~ think about or actively go through a transition to do something else. ~Um,~ I think for me, as when I was within WeWork, it was mostly one acquiring some of the basic skills that you need.
To move into the new role and to just asking for [00:20:00] it. ~Um,~ I think asking for it is actually the harder part for a lot of folks. ~Um,~ but in a way that's the easier part.
Silvia: Um, so ~if you, is it like,~ if you have an inkling of like, I could kind of want to do that or like, I wonder what that would be like, just go for it, you know, just take the steps to like plant the seeds.
Libo: Yeah, like learn how to do it right. There's so many resources out there to teach you so many things.~ Um, ~Learn learn the skills.
Silvia: Yeah. And so I'm curious, like, what does chief operating officer look like? ~Um,~ how did that come around?
Libo: Yeah. So ~when we ~when I joined, ~uh,~ AC resource, they were looking to build a software consulting arm. So when I joined, I was first in an offshoot called,~ um,~ AC labs. So it was me and a few other folks,~ uh,~ basically starting to provide,~ uh,~ software services for a lot of their existing clients and some of their, ~uh,~ new clients.
What we ended up discovering throughout the sales process was that the customer, even though they were looking for a software solution, what [00:21:00] they really needed was something that's much more integrated. Like you can't go from zero to a hundred without going through the progressive steps. So what was really integral for the success of the overall contract was that we have to Be able to have the BIM and, ~uh,~ product execution component along with a software component in an integrated solution.
So what we proposed is that, hey, like, let's combine these things. Let's reorganize how products are delivered within the company in order to streamline, ~uh,~ how we can build very comprehensive solutions for customers. ~Um,~ one example I'll give is, ~uh,~ we worked with a company that Was doing, ~uh,~ solar, like large solar deployments, and they had a guy who was just, ~uh,~ clicking, ~um,~ from point to point and then, ~uh,~ in CAD and then summing all of the lengths of those, ~uh,~ lines in order to get a, ~uh,~ [00:22:00] material count of how much wiring they need.
Something that seems to be very easily automatable, right? But, you know, with that, you also have to calculate, ~uh,~ how many things. You're terminating at each, ~uh,~ transformer box and how those all linked back together. So there was a lot of math involved. So in order to provide that automated solution, we not only had to, ~uh,~ do the scripting of how that worked, but also, ~uh,~ help them build the assets that contain the base information to do that calculation.
So It's one thing for a customer to say, Hey, I want this automated and you to say yes, but it's another thing to fully implement that solution. So that was where I transitioned, I guess, from a engineering role into an operational role in order to build that kind of larger solution for the company.
Silvia: And then, what else did you have to do as part of that role? Like, I'm assuming it's never just one [00:23:00] thing.
Libo: Yeah, so, ~uh,~ we reorganized the way that the company delivered, ~uh,~ projects. ~Um,~ so before, the company was very, like, singular. ~Uh,~ it was like, if you needed, ~uh,~ infrastructure, it was one team. If you needed architecture, it was another team.
If you just needed content, it was another team. ~Um,~ but, ~uh,~ there was a lot of ability to share resources, but also, ~uh, ~I guess, build a small cluster of the right folks together in order to build something that's not, that's much more comprehensive. ~Um,~ what we also did was that, ~uh,~ at that time, the company was selling a lot through resellers.
And one tough part of that was that resellers often were not able to present your case. In the way that's necessary and also, ~uh,~ do the problem discovery in the way that you need in order to put together the right pieces for, ~uh,~ a proposal. So [00:24:00] what we did was we took the company through a rebranding, which we thought was quite necessary, ~uh,~ because there was actually, ~uh,~ other companies named AC Resource that was very confusing for the customer.
~Um,~ but at the same time, it was this, I guess, a strategy to represent the company to the market in a way that allowed us much more to go direct to customer, ~um,~ which one not only helped the profitability of projects by cutting out some,~ uh, ~Some hands in the middle, but also gave us a much closer, a lot of us will work much closer in tandem with the customer to build the right contract and the right solutions for them.
Silvia: I'm assuming you didn't get the same kind of pushback you might in a lot, much larger company where it's like, Oh, we got to like vet this out or we don't want to change things like, was it, or did you face any pushback at all? ~Like~ when you had ~like~ these, ~um,~ changes across the company.
Libo: I think [00:25:00] there was a lot of pushback.
I think with any change, there's going to be pushback. ~Um,~ I think the, the stakeholders ultimately were motivated by profitability. So as long as these investments and these changes translated to a better ability to get great projects and increase the company's top line. Then, those were fine.
Silvia: ~Uh,~ this is kind of like, ~just like,~ more basic questions, but ~like, Did you, ~was it just through ~like,~ presentations, ~like, um, yeah, like,~ How did you convey these ideas across and get like, buy in from different people?
Libo: It was a lot of like, honestly, document writing. ~Um,~ I find, That sitting down and writing a good doc really forces you to be clear about why you think this is something that works.
~Um,~ so a lot of it, I think, was one, identifying the problem,~ uh,~ why is this a problem? ~What,~ what is the impact of that problem? How is it preventing us from [00:26:00] doing what we want to do? And what are some things that could work in order for us to get there? ~Um,~ so I guess in the example of the rebranding, it was like, one, ~um,~ we are getting, ~uh,~ customer complaints.
For, uh, things that we didn't do. Right. It was a different AC resource that did those things that the customer was complaining about, which shouldn't, ~shouldn't, uh,~ ever happen. ~Um,~ but at the same time, ~uh,~ resellers were taking something like 40, 50 percent off the top, so it was quite. An easy argument to say, Hey, look, one, if we rebrand, we remove a lot of confusion from customers, which is good, right?
You don't want customers thinking negatively of you for something you didn't do. But two, going direct to, ~uh,~ customers will probably increase your profitability by a significant margin. So it seems at the end of the day, quite a reasonable thing to do. And I was glad that, ~uh,~ the folks at, ~uh,~ YNC really agreed.
Silvia: Yeah, and ~um, I just,~ it's like, I also want to put a plug for architects [00:27:00] out there that it's not completely obvious, but communicating ideas to different people with like, and creating either like documents, graphs, like some kind of, ~um,~ documentation to support that is not something I, I guess I thought it was something that everyone just knows how to do, but I think it does take a little like skill and practice and then like communicating things Such as data or like thoughts and ideas is something that I think we're forced to do to present Architectural projects or even in school like that's something you do often just speaking about an idea And I'm sure you speak about it in different ways depending on your audience But that level of communication is something I think like if architects are trying to or anyone is trying to tell someone about a new role like Hire me kind of things like they should really lean into that and realize they have more resources available to them and they think
Libo: yeah, I think a big part of it is also, ~uh,~ it's like diagramming or doing a drawing [00:28:00] your you put something down, but then you have to step back and really evaluate that thing.
~Um, ~I find that a lot of the presentations that we do go through, I think in school, but also in the workplace is like this is already like a formulated it. ~Uh,~ thing, and my presentation is much more about persuasion. ~Um,~ less about, ~uh,~ clearly communicating idea, right? I'm trying to get someone else to do something.
~Um, ~I find that, ~uh, kind of ~a mental switch that changed for me is when you put something down and you look at it, you really have to kind of play devil's advocate. Like, why, wouldn't this work? And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, right? And you just scrap it and try something new. But you are really that first line of defense.
~Uh,~ before you present something stupid.
Silvia: Yeah. And another question I like to ask is like, what am I trying to say with this, like document slide graphic? And~ it's like, ~if it's not a hundred percent clear, then no one's going to get it. And I actually think that comes from a fear of drawings that like any wrong thing or like that I didn't, ~um,~ coordinate or like that I left in.[00:29:00]
It was always the thing the contractor would find and build from even though like I would have so much correct information in other areas. Maybe it's like to me, it's more logical place for them to look. They would find all the inconsistencies. So I was like, this has to be foolproof, but this also has to be very clear and ~like~ not confusing because if we have like referred to five different places, they're not going to find it.
So yeah, I guess clear communication goes a long way. And then just
Libo: also, right. Like you're not your audience, as you said before, right. It's depending on who you communicate with and You know, what might be something that seems very effective to you may seem very illogical or,~ um, ~nonsensical to your audience.
So, I mean, I guess that goes back to just trying to do different things and seeing things from new perspectives is that you do get that realization when you see things from the other side, ~um,~ of some of the mistakes and some of the things that you've heard on in the past.
Silvia: And then I'd like to hear more about your current role and the, what that looks like, ~um, just to start off like very basically~ [00:30:00] for people who might be unfamiliar, but then maybe some insights.
Libo: Yeah. So I think, ~uh, maybe as~ as a baseline, ~uh,~ meta. owns, I think, three of the top five messaging services in the world. ~Um,~ as you can imagine, there's a lot of people in the world and when people talk to each other, they send a lot of messages. ~Um,~ so there's an enormous amount of data that Meta has in order to make those services more reliable.
When you send someone a message, you expect it to get there and you expect the other person to read it and be able to respond to you. ~Um,~ it seems very simple on paper, but actually achieving it is incredibly hard. So part of the role of analytics at Meta is to instrument and monitor a lot of these metrics that
Maintain the quality of service for these messaging services, but at the same time,~ uh,~ meta is a very. Big experimentation company. So every feature that gets released, everything [00:31:00] that, ~uh,~ gets implemented goes through a very rigorous set of experimentation. So part of what we also do is when we do perform these experiments you have to ensure that, ~uh,~ one, you're setting them up correctly, two, that ~when you're monitoring, ~when you monitor them, that what you see is actually reflective of the experiences that users have.
And You need to present this information to,~ uh, ~stakeholders that have the ultimate go, no go say in whether this feature either gets killed or gets pushed out to a broader user base.
Silvia: ~Um, ~so what does your week kind of look like?
Libo: Yeah. So I guess on a week to week basis, ~uh,~ I spent a lot of time in SQL, spent a lot of time in Python, ~uh, ~A lot of what data engineering does is taking raw logging from the platform itself and summarizing, building, ~uh,~ and connecting them through a series of, ~uh,~ data [00:32:00] queries in a pipeline to arrive at a end metric.
~Um, what's a good example I can give? Uh, okay. ~In Instagram, you can have multiple accounts. So one of the things I work on is multi account, which is a user's experience having multiple accounts in Instagram. So questions you would ask is like, okay, what's a good experience? What's a bad experience? How do you know it's working?
~Um,~ and one of the metrics that we look at is, ~uh,~ called account switch percent good. So one, it measures your account switch experience. To it's a, ~uh,~ percentage metric where you look at all the account switches, ~um,~ across all the users and determine like, what is the threshold of good that you need to achieve?
Often this is in the, in the high nineties. ~Um,~ and the third is you have to define what good means. So this might mean different things. If you're looking at iOS, if you're looking at, ~uh, ~Android, because the underlying hardware has different. ~Uh,~ kind of performance. ~Um, ~it also might be influenced by different things.
So, ~uh,~ arriving at that metric is not [00:33:00] necessarily that straightforward, but it's one of these things where to the user, it's very clear to them what good is, but on a measurement perspective, you kind of have to build that up to a level where it's very, it's a very objective measure. At scale.
Silvia: Yeah, thank you for explaining that to me in a way that makes sense.
~Um,~ I'm curious, how did you, like, I'm assuming there's so many different roles as a data engineer at Meta, like, how did you find this one and, like, or choose this one?
Libo: Yeah, so. ~Uh,~ my current manager was something that I had previously worked with at WeWork. ~Um,~ she's amazing,~ uh,~ someone that I really enjoy working with.
~Uh,~ she's very curious, ~um,~ very hands on, ~um,~ also very supportive in, ~uh, ~one's individual growth. So great qualities of a manager to, to work for. ~Um, ~but, ~uh,~ when I, ~uh,~ left Catalyst and I was looking for a job, [00:34:00] she mentioned that she had a role open. ~Uh, wasn't~ very confident that I was able to get the job. So did spend a lot of time, ~uh,~ in prep.
But I think ultimately got really lucky, ~um,~ to come to Meta, be on her team and learn from all the great people here.
Silvia: Yeah, that's awesome. How much does it matter your background experience? ~Like~ having, I don't know, like, is there, cause like it's, you don't need to have like years of working at different, like data engine, as a data engineer to get a job, right?
Libo: You don't but it does help. I think for me, ~um,~ one of the things that I am really grateful for is how patient people are here, ~uh,~ for me. ~Um, you know,~ multiple times a week I would ask very stupid questions, ~uh,~ and make very obvious mistakes that, ~uh,~ folks have enormous patience in helping me grow from. ~Um,~ I think the other thing is that, ~uh,~ if you don't come with experience, you better come with the skills.
And. I think that's key where you there is an enormous amount of [00:35:00] catch up you'll have to do in order to be able to do the day to day work of a particular role. ~Um,~ and you have to be able to accept that your, ~I guess,~ years of working and what you perceive to be your tenure or your level of experience will not, will likely have close to no value in a new role.
So when I did come to Metta, ~um,~ I was down, down leveled. ~Uh,~ as folks, ~uh,~ would say, ~um,~ but appropriately so, like, I don't think I qualify at that higher level cause I don't have the experience or the years of working. So it is a way, ~um,~ for you to move into a new role and then hopefully grow fast into that level that you want.
But I think if you're, especially if you're moving very horizontally, it's a hit that you just have to be willing to take.
Silvia: Yeah, I think ~that's, uh, like,~ that's definitely something everyone has to come to terms with, because I feel like when you look at job descriptions, it's like, yeah, I could do that, ~like, I,~ I'm able to,~ like,~ physically use the [00:36:00] program, right, but ~it's like,~ there's so much Things that you don't understand about the industry that, like, it's hard to get without the experience, like you said.
~Um,~ and I think that's hard to come to terms with. But then I think it seems like people usually rely on, like, learning quickly on the job and just having good know how in general that they can apply to the specific things once they understand the tools or the experience. ~Um,~ do you have? Like an example, because you, I like the way you said it, where if you don't have the experience, have the skills, but ~like,~ they almost sound like the same thing, but can you~ kind of like~ give a differentiator there?
Libo: Yeah, so I think one thing about experience is one's ability to dive into the root cause of a problem. ~Um,~ and I think that's something that I struggle a lot with, especially my first year here is when something goes wrong. It takes me a very long time to figure out what exactly, ~uh,~ where exactly the problem is occurring.
And when I asked for help, ~uh,~ it's especially from someone [00:37:00] who's much more senior than me. It's very fast for them to not only identify the problem, but also how give very clear instruction on exactly how to solve it. So I think especially in large organizations where the tooling, the ways of operating, ~uh,~ may not be as immediately accessible to someone coming from the outside world, those problems will exist.
And that's something that, ~uh,~ will only come, I think, with time with dealing with enough problems so that you can see ahead.
Silvia: Yeah, that's something that I find a little hard to grapple with sometimes, is that, like, you need to get into those uncomfortable situations to grow from, but then it's like, when you get to a point where it's like, oh man, I finally, like, understand enough to, like, not be Googling as much, or, like, can kind of go a little faster through things, but then it's like, you also can't get comfortable there either, which is, it's like, ~Um, like~ at Layer, ~uh,~ for the first year, I didn't feel comfortable, like, understanding problems at all.
Like, when I was handling support or things like that. [00:38:00] And now it's like, okay, I have a better idea of how to get through things. But then, I also just can't stay here where I'm comfortable. ~Like,~ there's gonna be new problems, and ~like,~ there's gonna be better ways to handle things. So, I wish I could stay here, but I also realize that it's part of growth to be uncomfortable.
Libo: Yeah, I mean, it's something that I feel you just need to seek out.~ Um, it's,~ it's nice to be comfortable for a while, but it does get boring and it does get stagnant. So, it's something to always look out for.
Silvia: Yeah, ~uh,~ do you have ways that you like to seek out growth?~ Like,~ do you look for problems or, ~like,~ new experiences or things like that?
Libo: I like to work on a lot of side projects. ~Um,~ I think is one of the best ways to learn, but also one of the ways I think, , helps me challenge myself is to figure out a project that I want to do and then ~learn in, uh,~ learn to implement that thing that I see, ~uh,~ set out to do and measure ~the results of how, uh, those things.~
~Uh, I guess measure~ the outcomes of that project. ~Um,~ one example I'll give you is, ~uh, you know,~ we're in a AI hype cycle right now. ~Um,~ one of the things I wanted to do was, hey, like, let's build a project, ~uh,~ that helps me explore a lot of those [00:39:00] toolings. So, ~um,~ I built a automated, ~uh,~ YouTube channel where you can enter a bunch of prompts and it'll like generate the script, the video, the voiceover, and then upload So.
Spent a ton of late nights, like, smashing my face against the wall trying to get this thing to work, but it works, ~you know, uh, ~my YouTube channel has three digit subscribers, so, ~uh, it's pretty,~ it's pretty fun.
Silvia: What is it called?
Libo: ~Uh,~ I don't think, ~um,~ we should go ahead.~ It's, it's, uh, ~I would say it's Internet Slop that I don't want, ~uh,~ to waste the time of any of the listeners.
Okay. Maybe
Silvia: people will find it organically, but very cool. ~Um,~ what are other things that you do as side? ~Um, ~I say side hustles. I love like side projects because I feel like, especially for people who are transitioning careers. So many times that side thing becomes your main thing or ~like~ something you're dabbling in leads to an opportunity or.
An opportunity that leads to where you are currently [00:40:00] now. And it always seems to align very well to like actually what they're interested in. So it's a great way to explore that way.
Libo: Yeah. I think the, what you're interested in is kind of like the key thing is it's your time. So why waste it doing something you don't want to do?
~Um,~ and I think ultimately, that's what sets you up to overcome a lot of these challenges that you'll face is if you're inherently not interested in the thing that you're doing when you face roadblocks, it's a lot harder to motivate yourself to overcome them.
Silvia: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I have I, I mention this sometimes on the podcast, I have a lot of like, crafty projects that I want to finish that sit unfinished, but then like, maybe also, I just gotta like, let it go then if it's really not getting to it, and it's like, I'm talking like, years now, and it just sits in the corner, um.
Yeah, so ~like, uh, ~what kind of projects have you been working on, or ~like,~ what else interests you?
Libo: Um, I think more recently,~ uh, ~doing generative projects have been more of an interest area. [00:41:00] So one project that I'm working on right now is, ~um,~ generating a, ~uh,~ static website for SEO. ~Um,~ so when it's like picking a niche to gathering and scraping information and three leveraging that database of information to generate content, ~um,~ how that process works, I'm not fully figured out yet, but it's been very fun to play with new tooling to.
~Uh, ~put together data in that way, and to honestly, like, leverage, ~uh,~ LLMs to generate content.
Silvia: Oh, so your YouTube channel that you mentioned previously, so it's like, you're not trying to make a nice thing to, like, share with the world necessarily, you're just really experimenting with things and seeing what you can do.
Libo: Right. ~I think, you know, ~I think, you know, in, in architecture, I feel like ~there's a, ~there's a sense that you have to make everything perfect and everything nice.~ Um,~ but ultimately I think ~what is the,~ what is the outcome that you're looking for? ~Right? Like~ for me, a side project, the outcome I'm looking [00:42:00] for is me learning.
It's not for someone else to say, Hey, that looks really cool. Right? So if I focus on what matters to me, then a lot of the other things, ~uh,~ can fall to the wayside. So it helps me spend ~as much as, ~as much of my, ~uh,~ own time as possible on things that matter to me.
Silvia: Yeah. I love that. And~ time is all, what is it, like, ~time is the only resource that is, like, finite, is?
Libo: Mm hmm.
Silvia: ~Um,~ so, the two questions that I'd like to end on, ~um,~ first one is, is there any advice you'd give to your younger self, or, ~like,~ just something you wish you heard back then?
Libo: I think maybe just, like, take the leap. ~Um,~ I think especially early on in my career, there was a lot of anxiety and what am I doing?
Like, what am I giving up? Am I able to be successful in this new role? And, you know, looking back, it's like all those anxieties were ultimately unfounded, right? Like, titles are free. ~Uh,~ if you don't succeed, you'll just get laid off and you'll find a new job, right? The consequences are not as dire [00:43:00] as, ~uh,~ you imagine.
So, that would be definitely something that I would tell myself.
Silvia: Yeah, that's awesome. And it also sounds like. You thrive in that area where, ~like,~ you're exploring things and having to learn very quickly and,~ like,~ not forced to, but, ~like,~ the fire's there. So, like, is it also exciting for you? ~Like,~ I think you mentioned that already.
Libo: Yeah, I mean, one thing I, I say all the time is, like, chaos is more fun. Right? It's, yeah, it's a little bit more grueling. ~Um,~ but I think for me, ~it, like,~ it beats at working at a boring corporate stable job any day. Like, I I just love being in really chaotic situations.
Silvia: I tell myself I don't, but then actually, ~like,~ I do get into, ~like,~ difficult situations, like, ~um, ~when I'm paddling or, ~like,~ eating spicy food, which are different, but, ~like,~ my brother in law,~ like,~ I heard him say, like, oh, it burns so good as he's eating really spicy food, and I was like, oh, you enjoyed this pain?
Or, ~like,~ if I was in, ~like,~ a tough paddling situation, I'm like, okay, I'm learning skills here, like, [00:44:00] this is really scary for me, but ~this is, like,~ I'm taking the steps to understand how to do this better. So I guess it's just really like reframing things that are uncomfortable into like the other side of the coin into where you're growing.
Libo: I think it's a little bit like skiing, right? ~It's, um,~ skiing is terrifying. ~Uh,~ but it's really fun when you lean into the fear. ~Um,~ and I think that applies in a lot of situations where, you know, fear is at the end of the day, just an emotion and It is one of these things, one of these key signals that you're doing something good, that you're doing something that will force you to grow and learn.
Silvia: Yeah, for sure. It's like, ~you have to lean, like, hold, um, gritting your teeth and like, trying not to, like,~ if you're going downhill, you kind of have to like lean forward a little bit, but you kind of want to like, if you're afraid you're just gonna like carve into the snow or like it's gonna be more difficult to like hold yourself back than actually just commit and go with it.
Libo: Yeah, but always wear a helmet, you know, don't put your life at risk, right? ~Uh,~ fear is fear in itself. You don't have to actually take, you know, life [00:45:00] risks.
Silvia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. At your own pace, just Lean into it as much as you can. ~Um, ~and then the last question is what are you looking forward to in the near future, far future, anything?
Libo: well, I'm having a kid, or I guess I should say we're having a kid, so that's definitely something I'm looking forward to. It'll be a wild, new, chaotic challenge, ~um,~ which will be, I think, enormously fun. ~Um,~ and it's going to be a challenge that I hope to grow a lot from.
Silvia: Yeah, that's actually like, ~uh,~ coming out of this conversation, like the greatest challenge, right?
And reward. Awesome. ~Um,~ thank you for your time, and thank you for sharing all these insights. I think there's so much to gather here for our listeners.
Libo: Yeah, ~um,~ I do want to make a plug, ~uh,~ especially for folks who are in the architecture industry. ~Um,~ I do host a podcast called Most Pattern. ~Um,~ where we talk to not only architects, but, ~uh,~ people across the field.
So, especially for folks who are a little bit interested to hear what, ~uh,~ developers do, what landscape architects do, ~uh,~ what, you know, software [00:46:00] engineers, ~uh,~ working on the metaverse do. ~Um,~ it's a great place to check out some of their stories.
Silvia: Yeah, thank you for that. And Jackie was also on your podcast, right?
So, Jackie
Libo: was our number, our number one, uh, guest.
Silvia: Oh, that's awesome. Yes, one of the OOA advisors.~ Um,~ any other plugs for anything else?
Libo: ~Uh, ~no, I think that's it. ~Um,~ just go, go do stuff, right? Don't, don't worry so much about what people call you or what it says on your LinkedIn. Just go, go explore.
Silvia: ~Yeah, for sure.~
~Um, and I will be sure to link, uh, your podcast as well. ~
Libo: ~Amazing. ~
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