Seldon Crisis – The Podcast

Illustrator and science fiction connoisseur Danielle Pajak describes her ideas on the art of sci fi, the means of communicating truth and beauty to the readers and watchers of science fiction books, movies, and TV shows. We talk about some of her major inspirations as an artist and many of her favorite sci fi writers, directors, of course Star Trek and her newest discovery, The Orville. We'll also talk a lot about her impressions of legendary figures in Sci Fi like Asimov, Herbert, Clarke, Hal Clement and Ted Chiang, and the importance of cinematic masters like Tarkovsky, Kubrick, and Denis Villeneuve. We'll sadly say goodbye to one of the great modern icons of the medium, Nichelle Nichols – Lt. Uhura of the Enterprise in Star Trek, the Original Series.

Show Notes

Danielle Pajak
Artists
Cinema
Sci Fi authors
Planet and Sky
Open Pike Night (Twitter)

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What is Seldon Crisis – The Podcast?

A personal exploration of Isaac Asimov's Foundation epic, including commentary and analysis.

[intro theme with voiceover

Danielle Pajak: “…it's such a powerful genre – a genre of questioning, of exploring and discovery and to me, it's just as dangerous and harrowing as actually going into space because you don't know the inner space of Humanity. What's there? What you'll find. Maybe it's something that you don't want to see…

…and I think that we've only scratched the surface of the genre like there's been so many great works of science fiction that are like so amazing and I think that we could. You know I think it's like you know we don't know how vast our actual universe is and I feel like we don't know how vast the genre itself is and where it can take our imaginations and our souls.”
]

(Note: this AI-generated transcript will be cleaned up as soon as I can get to it)

00:00.00
Joel McKinnon
Welcome back to Seldon Crisis for a special episode on the theme of the art of science fiction with a very special friend from the Twitter sphere who goes by the exotic name of the Heretical Sayyadina (fans of Frank Herbert's dune might recognize the reference). Daniel Pajak is a talented freelance illustrator and sci-fi connoisseur and a big fan of Foundation dune and many other notable sci-fi novels movies and Tv shows. This would be the none time I'd heard her voice. Were it not for a podcast celebrating the most recent entry to the illustrious star trek canon strange new worlds called open Pike night they have a cool format which allows listeners to take the stage for up to 90 seconds to present their take on the latest episode. We've both spoken up there. But Danielle's submissions have regularly wowed everyone with the depth of insight and artful appreciation of the content of the show. She's a longtime fan of star trek and recently I've succeeded in getting her to give the Orville a try which I believe you're likely to hear something about on this episode welcome Danielle. Great to have you on Seldon Crisis!

01:12.13
Danielle Pajak
Thank you so much Joel. I'm so glad to be here.

01:16.65
Joel McKinnon
Great. I've seen a lot of your beautiful drawings on Twitter and on your personal website and really love the style and the evidence skill you have as an artist can you tell me a little about how you developed your abilities and who are some of your biggest inspirations.

01:26.22
Danielle Pajak
No thank you.

01:33.24
Danielle Pajak
yeah, um, well I'm by and large self-taught. Um you know I went to college and you know took you got my degree in art and I um had an a male correspondence course that I did because I'm homeschooled. So my parents got me the male correspondence course that taught me um, the way that the classical artist drew like Michelangelo and Raphael he taught me those techniques. but for the most part I'm self-taught.

02:02.18
Joel McKinnon
Are.

02:12.10
Danielle Pajak
And I have ah you know a lot of inspiration I get a lot of inspiration from Japanese Artwork Asian Artwork. Um Japanese I like I'm inspired by them because they live out the beauty. And aesthetic that they admire. you know the minimalism. The Eastern influences. So yeah, I'm glad um, you know I Ah, there's a lot of Onimade I I Loved

02:36.56
Joel McKinnon
Um I think I can see that in your work. Yeah.

02:50.67
Danielle Pajak
There's a famous japanese illustrator named Yoshi Taka Amoo who um, illustrated a lot of video games and books. Um I also love an artist named Makodo Fujimara who's a Christian author and fine art artist. Very, he's pretty famous in New York so you know the eastern influences and then I am also influenced by Kandinsky um, the german artist. he helped me develop my visual language.

03:19.61
Joel McKinnon
Um.

03:28.95
Danielle Pajak
He wrote he he had him p as a really like analytical almost scientific approach to art theory. and that really appeals to me in my analytic my so you know analytical mind um and especially with color. Because colors are important to me color is how I communicate emotions. and for him color was what directly influences the soul and that the artist is the one who's playing. The you know the keyboard um of the soul of the person's soul. so I just you know I just really inspired by his theories on line shape and color. Really amazing. I'm also inspired by medieval artwork. because of the symbolism the sacredness of the art. it's very spiritual during that time. Period imagery was so important. because people weren't literate at that time that you know just before. Printing press and um, so that's how they communicated That's how they learned through images. and so they they had a ah reverence for the image that I feel like we've lost in modern times where they you know you just. Sat with the image and Beheld it and let it come into you like a spiritual meditation and that you know that's where I how I want to approach my art and how I would like people to see beyond perceive my art as well.

05:11.50
Joel McKinnon
Um.

05:19.83
Joel McKinnon
Not to just blast through one after another in None a None right? Yep um, anybody else.

05:23.89
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, exactly. But.

05:30.24
Danielle Pajak
yeah I'm also inspired by Andre Tarrkowski um the russian filmmaker um soviet filmmaker.

05:34.87
Joel McKinnon
yeah I seen several of his movies and I I love the the visual aspect of the poetic visual aspect of his his movies a lot.

05:46.67
Danielle Pajak
Yes, yeah, the he is so Beautiful. The poetic Cinema his but his art. Um and he was very big on the spiritual as well about focusing on that. especially for the artist. 1 of his quotes that I love um, he says I believe that to form a concept of art. You first have to face another more important question. Why does man exist. We have to use our time on Earth to improve our spells ourselves spiritually. This means the art must serve this purpose. So I Just really think that's beautiful, really inspiring.

06:29.13
Joel McKinnon
yeah, and cool if you know any good like internet resources to link to for attack for Tarkowsky or any of this let me know and I'll add up to the show notes because I'd love to read more on that.

06:41.77
Danielle Pajak
Okay, great.

06:48.65
Joel McKinnon
So anyway, this is a podcast as you know about science fiction and specifically Asmaov's Foundation and we'll talk more about that in a bit. but I'd like to start by discussing in larger terms. The intersection of art and science fiction. Both.

06:52.87
Danielle Pajak
So nice.

07:03.71
Joel McKinnon
The visual treatment of science fiction in movies Tv shows book covers et cetera but also the art of how science fiction is created um how science fiction creators artfully develop new worlds.

07:06.77
Danielle Pajak
Um.

07:19.78
Joel McKinnon
Exotic characters and fantastic environments for their stories and I'm curious. How would you say this amazing genre has intersected with art and poetry from your perspective.

07:31.71
Danielle Pajak
Ah, yeah, um I like to see art as 3 aspects I see it as communication truth and beauty and emphasis on beauty. Um. I see ah beauty is not just an aesthetic but something that's all encompassing and varied so it could be like beauty could be in ah a child's face and a friendship in the the sun through the leaves or the. Beauty of the the James Webb photos that we received recently. It's just it's in the modernity of life. It's um, in the nooks and crannies and like it's it's heaven reaching down to us and um, demanding a response. And so to me that's what beauty is and I think science fiction has this unique ability to express that and I don't think a lot of people see that because I feel like science fiction is kind of seen as. The lower art. you know there's like you know the literature has myths and fantasy archetypes and um poetry and dramas. And those are like high intellectual pursuits and then you know science fiction is just about ships and aliens and you know pepew shooting. It's not to I don't know I get that perception from um from the Academ. Ah and the arts in general.

09:07.40
Joel McKinnon
Are.

09:18.62
Danielle Pajak
but in in recent times I feel like maybe has risen in the estimation. in people's minds. but you know I think that ever since I got into science fiction I Thought you know that science fiction had this ability to show us. Extremes of like going into the you know going into the infinite um showing us the the existential void or the the sublime heavens and this ah yes, yes.

09:49.53
Joel McKinnon
It definitely connects with our sense of wonder and you know just takes you apart from the ordinary the banal into something extraordinary by default. and um.

09:58.53
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

10:08.25
Joel McKinnon
You mentioned we were talking earlier about Mary Shelley as a science fiction writer and most people don't think of her as a science fiction writer. It's it's more you know she's classic literature and but I'm kind of wondering like why? um.

10:13.00
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah.

10:27.59
Joel McKinnon
Why that didn't teach people that science fiction is me is important. Yeah base it when it can ask such powerful questions about the human condition.

10:28.30
Danielle Pajak
yeah I know exactly.

10:40.81
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, that you know it's is such a powerful genre. and it's ah it's a genre of questioning you know it it of exploring and Discovery and um to me, it's like.. It's just as dangerous and harrowing as actually going into space because you don't know what you know the inner space of Humanity. What's there What you'll find. Maybe it's something that you don't want to see.

11:15.45
Joel McKinnon
Right? right? Yeah, a lot of people I think are yeah, blocked by that like not being able to connect with it maybe fearing connecting with thinking in ah in a very different way about things.

11:25.86
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, and I think that we've only scratched the surface of the genre like there's been so many great works of science fiction that are like so amazing and I think that we could. You know I think it's like you know we don't know how vast our actual universe is and I feel like we don't know how vast the genre itself is and where it can take our imaginations and our souls.

11:59.46
Joel McKinnon
Yeah I'm sure we're going to be talking about a tv show called the Orville before too long but I was just thinking about how this particular season and even the past ones asks so many, really interesting questions.

12:04.16
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

12:12.19
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

12:18.10
Joel McKinnon
That are just leave you thinking for days or weeks you know about the implications of these questions and yeah, a lot of people think of like ah a Tv show like that as just being adventure you know and and it's so much more if handled right.

12:22.91
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

12:29.68
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, exactly.

12:35.20
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, that has so much opportunity to really ask deep questions and get your brain engaged in ways that you know nothing else can.

12:41.26
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, and I you know I've I've just been shocked because you know I you know as I told you before I didn't you know I had this impression of the orbel as being a parody not that serious.

12:53.37
Joel McKinnon
Well it kind of it brought that on itself with the you know with his history with Seth Set's history and the um yeah, the other things he does in the the way it started you know with a a lot more lighthearted and.

13:06.20
Danielle Pajak
yeah, that's true, but you know I've been like oh my gosh. He's just like he's exploring the genre the way that I would want it to be explored like he's just like he understands it so well.

13:19.27
Joel McKinnon
yeah, yeah, well I hope he keeps getting financial support and keeps getting it support of this streaming networks to to get it put his put the show out there and it gets renewed. So anyway, let's talk About. oh what?? How did you? What brought sci-fi into your life. What are your?? when did you start reading it. What are you? Some who are some of your favorite Authors. Um.

13:49.52
Danielle Pajak
well, um, my my friend actually got me into science fiction. One of my best friends you've met her on Twitter she's Luna Moth I don't know if you remember her? Yeah um.

14:04.10
Joel McKinnon
Yep Yep! I Definitely remember that that name.

14:09.15
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, she's the one that introduced me to asthov but he was my None introduction into science fiction of course and um, he was the Foundation book and yeah.

14:16.85
Joel McKinnon
you started with Foundation. Wow is a lot most people start with short stories I think.

14:24.19
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, but she she like really loved it. So she's like you had to read this and that's like okay and it seemed very dense. and so I thought it was going to be a dry book a drive read. But I was like immediately enthralled um and after I read it. It was just like.

14:41.81
Joel McKinnon
I'm curious. Did you have ah an interest in history or politics at all. Um that you could that connected with through it because it's it's so written from that background of his that that interest in in like the decline and fall of the Roman Empire and

14:43.59
Danielle Pajak
This.

14:47.90
Danielle Pajak
um.

15:01.71
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, so many classic and Shakespeare. You know he was really into theater and and this kind of things so it's was that were those interests of yours or.

15:03.64
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, right. not really actually I mean I I do enjoy politics um to a certain degree because I like the um, the clashing of Ideas. So.

15:23.16
Joel McKinnon
Are.

15:25.57
Danielle Pajak
Kind of like how star trek in the Orville uses politics. So I do enjoy reading or politics. But I'm not really a history person I'm not really interested in history. So I guess it's kind of unique in that way, but it was it was because I was just like the way that he.

15:34.32
Joel McKinnon
Um. yeah.

15:45.11
Danielle Pajak
the the dialogue was like immediately drew you in and you're interested in what these people were doing and saying even though you probably wouldn't normally be.

15:54.41
Joel McKinnon
Well I I kind of see a lot of science fiction. Especially long time scale science fiction like Foundation and um Robert Heinline had it like a future history. Yeah, um.

16:04.58
Danielle Pajak
But here. Yeah.

16:13.18
Joel McKinnon
Park that went for thousands of years and like lots of different science fiction writers have done that and so to me science fiction is kind of the history of the future and so that kind of I think that's what led me to get really into history of the past. Um.

16:24.70
Danielle Pajak
That's true.

16:30.23
Danielle Pajak
Oh.

16:32.90
Joel McKinnon
You know because I just know saw that as a spectrum that I could explore in the in the real direction of what's already happened and it's that's just been something. That's kept me enthralled for for decades I think I I got started as ah, um, as.

16:35.68
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

16:47.20
Danielle Pajak
The power space.

16:52.33
Joel McKinnon
But a geology degree you know and ah, very my my schooling was heavily focused on hard science and it was only after I you know got into that field and and started working kind of as a.

16:52.63
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

17:00.17
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

17:10.26
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, newbie scientist in a way that I found that I really enjoyed the humanities and wanted wondered why I didn't choose that path instead. But I think with me I'm I'm like always interested in way too many things to focus on anyone. Yeah, so it's.

17:16.86
Danielle Pajak
Oh no.

17:24.20
Danielle Pajak
Go yeah.

17:29.60
Joel McKinnon
Not too surprising so any other authors that come to mind.

17:31.89
Danielle Pajak
um ah yeah um I have I've read so many I mean there are some I haven't read like Heinland and Philip k dick um I still haven't read anything from him. But um.

17:44.70
Joel McKinnon
Hindline is a really interesting case because I was just hearing ah well one of my favorite writers is Kim Stanley Robinson I just was listening to one of his talks and he talks about how heinling changed so dramatically because when he was writing in the.

17:49.74
Danielle Pajak
Up.

18:02.11
Joel McKinnon
Sixty S fifty s and sixty s he was pretty wide open and very libertine. You know and like you know, really more like a hippie you know a stranger in a strange land who has a lot of like Hippie Concepts and stuff that he really loved and.

18:08.80
Danielle Pajak
Oh the.

18:21.80
Danielle Pajak
Go get? yeah.

18:21.62
Joel McKinnon
Hedonism and then later in his life. He became very conservative and reactionary and yes, but but in fact, some of his later stuff I really love is that get very poetic. 1 of my favorite novels is called time enough for love.

18:26.67
Danielle Pajak
Oh interesting. and then.

18:38.92
Danielle Pajak
Okay.

18:40.87
Joel McKinnon
And it's the one in which he the protagonist is ah I think 3 or 4000 years old and and he ah it's not he's born in the late None century and.

18:56.30
Danielle Pajak
Okay.

18:59.97
Joel McKinnon
He's part of ah a a special family or group of families that are doing something kind of eugenics like but it's Iss breeding. Basically they just they're they're like a secret club of people that breed for long life.

19:07.15
Danielle Pajak
but.

19:16.42
Danielle Pajak
Okay.

19:18.44
Joel McKinnon
And so they they become like Centenarians most of the people in these families and he was a mutation who happened to have a like a very slow beating heart and a great Immune system I guess and and.

19:32.34
Danielle Pajak
Soga.

19:35.96
Joel McKinnon
Naturally lived for several hundred years and by the time he was several hundred years old. They developed these regeneration capabilities rejuvenation procedures. So that people could anybody could live to be Thousand Thousand years old and he was particularly like a.

19:43.12
Danielle Pajak
oh so yeah.

19:51.19
Danielle Pajak
Interesting.

19:55.15
Joel McKinnon
Legend of long of longevity you know and lived to be 3 or 4000 years old I can't remember but it's it's so poetic because it's basically him looking back over his 3 or 4000 year life at these vignettes of.

19:56.16
Danielle Pajak
Oh.

20:07.44
Danielle Pajak
Um.

20:12.42
Joel McKinnon
And a lot of it is really touching because it's like he he would fall in love with a normal human being who would only live for seventy or eighty years and have to see them. You know grow from a child into you know, an old person with him hardly being touched.

20:18.39
Danielle Pajak
yeah. So.

20:29.98
Danielle Pajak
So and stops.

20:32.10
Joel McKinnon
And knowing that he would have to live beyond them. You know and have to say goodbye to them. They said that that to me was one of the most beautiful books that read by him and there's so many it's great writer. Yeah yeah, that's a good one. Although it's a long one to get started on. There's a lot more.

20:41.11
Danielle Pajak
yeah, that sounds really sad I'll had to check out his books. yeah, okay, okay, now be good.

20:51.85
Joel McKinnon
Shorter ones here he writes some pretty good short stories too and Novellas um I could probably think of a couple to recommend to you? so let's see oh who anybody else that comes to mind. Do you want to talk about.

21:06.61
Danielle Pajak
yeah, um so a moment 1 of my favorites is Hal Clement I don't know if heard of him he's um, but yeah, he's a category of Asimov um, he's very hard science like.

21:11.89
Joel McKinnon
I've heard of him but I haven't read him. What's he like.

21:25.76
Danielle Pajak
He's dry for sure. But um I always I find his works fascinating because he's he comes up with these like really um, imaginative planets and aliens. But they're like. Realistic because he builds from you know, chemistry up. Um so he he really I read where he and asthma because Asthma was a professor of chemistry so they would discuss like how other Alien life forms would develop with different different chemistry. And ours and so he loved um, extrapolating different Alien lifes.

22:10.70
Joel McKinnon
that now I remember that where I've heard his name a lot. It was in reading Asmo's biography autobiography My as off. Yeah yeah, oh yeah.

22:16.48
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, um, yeah, his his stuff is so good. Um Arthur C Clark of course. Yeah I haven't read that one.

22:28.25
Joel McKinnon
Very childhood's end. Oh that one. So beautiful. He was one of my the end of the big 3 were my when I was in high school and college that I read a lot of Heinland Clark and as off.

22:39.68
Danielle Pajak
yeah yeah I recently read his um rendezvous with Ram Ramma and I will. Yeah yeah, but.

22:47.50
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and that's gonna be made into a movie by Vi Moveuv Yeah, that's going to be an amazing I Can't wait for that and speaking of movies. Um seen a rival. Yeah.

22:57.36
Danielle Pajak
It's going to be incredible.

23:02.17
Danielle Pajak
yes, yes I love that yeah and he's another author I Love um, have you read any choice.

23:05.90
Joel McKinnon
And that's from based on a story by Ted Chang I believe yeah have you read that collection of stories that the the story based on arrival, it's a different name I can't remember the name of it. Yeah yeah.

23:17.77
Danielle Pajak
A story of your life like story. Yeah, yes, incredible. He like he he like does like really imaginative high concept Science fiction.

23:24.47
Joel McKinnon
And not an amazing collection. Yeah yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like every so every story is like in a completely different direction but they're just so like wildly imaginative and and he turns some concept into just a brilliant story and everyone.

23:35.55
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

23:42.15
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah.

23:47.59
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I know um Ray Brad very yeah I love his Mars his stories about Mars.

23:50.78
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, Gray bradbury.

23:57.43
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, that's a Martian chronicles didn't see. There's an um, illustrated man being read down.

24:06.48
Danielle Pajak
I have I haven't read I haven't read the illustrated man or None for fifty one yet I and need to yeah.

24:11.23
Joel McKinnon
Okay, those are great too and some of those and he's another brilliant short story writer. Yeah.

24:17.64
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, um I like Stannis law Stanis law lem. yeah I love that book. Yeah.

24:27.69
Joel McKinnon
I've heard so much about him and have what he wrote Solaris right? and I've always been wanting to read that because I love the movie. Yeah.

24:37.33
Danielle Pajak
The book the book and the movie are different. but um, the book is is is just as good as the film It just sort of like sandsog was like all about like I've read like a few of his books I So I still need to read more but he loves exploring the the inexplicable like he loves. Playing with that concept of like something happens that humans just can't understand or comprehend Ada loves playing with that concept.

25:06.54
Joel McKinnon
That's probably like the kind of thing that scares a lot of people who don't read Science fiction. Yeah, um, well let's talk about as mom for a moment. Um.

25:08.62
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, and he makes it scary for sure. Okay.

25:21.42
Joel McKinnon
So we already talked about ah you started with Foundation. what else do you? what do you else? do have you written by or read by him that you like.

25:30.25
Danielle Pajak
I've read all his science fiction. yeah, yeah, he yeah obviously the robot stories are.

25:35.20
Joel McKinnon
So all that's that's saying a lot. Ah, although you you wrote a lot more nonfiction than fiction. But you so you've read all the Robot stories.

25:49.69
Danielle Pajak
Like my top favorite you know denil and Elijah Bailey or

25:54.60
Joel McKinnon
You're at the the um the four in that that series that caves of steel the naked Sun Aurora I don't know whether it's robots of dawn and and robots of empire. Yeah, um.

26:01.77
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, oh yeah, robots Not yeah.

26:11.40
Joel McKinnon
Which is your favorite in those do or do you have 1

26:12.93
Danielle Pajak
Um I can't really choose I Love caves of steel just because of the the concept. Um I Love I Love I Love that title The caves of steel is just like perfect. Yeah.

26:21.70
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, he just create that's it's brilliant worldbuilding just from that. Yeah, but he he creates such a ah culture. That's just so fascinating and it it has this that feeling of um.

26:31.24
Danielle Pajak
Um.

26:39.37
Danielle Pajak
You know.

26:39.72
Joel McKinnon
Kind of Retro you know with like ah, almost like a um steamunk kind of feel to it that it's set more in the future. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:44.99
Danielle Pajak
Ah, like yeah I know no more no our detective which I love the no our genre So I'm just like I love that So aha. Yeah.

26:56.26
Joel McKinnon
You probably into Blade drumer. Yeah yeah, me too. That's another great one? ah you know what I was going to say is I know I think my favorite might be um and naked son just because.

27:02.68
Danielle Pajak
um I love.

27:11.58
Danielle Pajak
Okay, yeah.

27:14.65
Joel McKinnon
That planet is that I mean the the world building and that one and how he describes that that planet and the the strange culture there know with like 12000 people on an an earthsized planet you know? And yeah, as many.

27:19.21
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

27:27.42
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

27:32.81
Joel McKinnon
Robots as there are people for us. You know, kind of crazy idea that it's both appealing and terrifying at the same time you know there's something like really and you it's almost feels like theme parkish. You know to like you'd want.

27:35.80
Danielle Pajak
yeah, it was fascinating. Um.

27:47.12
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, right? yeah.

27:50.72
Joel McKinnon
To be there and then you realize now these robots are kind of scary and yeah and then and then when we run into them later in Foundation and Earth and then later still in. Um.

27:53.53
Danielle Pajak
like West world or something. Um.

28:09.35
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:09.54
Joel McKinnon
Robots and empire right? where there's like 2 more trips back to solaria and it seems like every time you get you go to solaria something crazy happens. That's why I like love that 1

28:19.65
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, exactly.

28:29.14
Joel McKinnon
But the other the others are great too and just the ideas and and those are just so phenomenal with yeah the extrapolation of the 3 lawn and and yeah, the building upon the basic concepts of those 3 laws. It's just amazing. How much.

28:29.26
Danielle Pajak
yeah, um. Oh yeah.

28:47.12
Joel McKinnon
Mileage he got out of the 3 laws right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, all all the ways they can fail. Yeah, he played that for like decades and then and then he came up with this amazing concept of the 0 law that.

28:47.39
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, that he there is like there is like so many para pramutations throughout his robot story. Yeah.

29:03.48
Danielle Pajak
Burden.

29:07.30
Joel McKinnon
It's that whole series is basically it seems working towards developing the 0 ero-roath law and it's both Daniel and gescard that are talking back and forth and working it out between them and.

29:11.63
Danielle Pajak
For him.

29:18.89
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:23.19
Joel McKinnon
Scar actually gives who I'm I'm kind of giving a spoiler here but he kind of gives a big gift to Don right? yep.

29:25.45
Danielle Pajak
Um. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that's why you know I Love um, Asimma's robots because they're they're different than any other kind of robot throughout Science fiction to me, they they feel like their own race. Um.

29:50.36
Joel McKinnon
Yeah.

29:52.90
Danielle Pajak
Like they you've they're able to evolve and grow. and that's true. Yeah.

29:55.95
Joel McKinnon
Well, we're starting to see that a little bit in the Oreville right? Yeah with the the evolution of the like timmins timus and and also you know what isaac is starting to yeah.

30:05.69
Danielle Pajak
Tim is yeah.

30:12.17
Danielle Pajak
you know.

30:13.88
Joel McKinnon
Become conscious of his own emotional kind of quasi emotional state.

30:18.46
Danielle Pajak
yeah yeah I love I love how they how the Orville has been evolving isaac which is very similar to data. But um I feel like isaac has more of a disadvantage than even data had.

30:33.25
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and and data always was very fascinated by you know and very very desirous of of understanding and being emotive whereas and ever got that feeling about isaac if unlike he wasn't seeking. Um.

30:45.36
Danielle Pajak
yeah. no yeah, yeah.

30:52.60
Joel McKinnon
Being a motive until Claire kind of made him want to be your motive right? Yeah, so let's see. Um. So you've I've seen on Twitter a lot that you're a big fan of dune and um particularly the new movie from vi nouve and i.

31:12.96
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

31:21.96
Joel McKinnon
Correct me or if I'm wrong but have I seen a picture or 2 of Timothy Salaome ah on your Twitter timeline. Yeah, maybe once or twice. Ah so ah, what do you feel sets the story apart in the world of sci-fi and what's so special about the movie here.

31:25.57
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, a huge fan. But.

31:38.48
Danielle Pajak
well I'll have to put a qualifier that for people who are dude and fans in your audience. Um I'm not a huge fan of the books. So I'm not that knowledgeable of them I read.

31:40.70
Joel McKinnon
Perspective.

31:49.83
Joel McKinnon
Um.

31:54.95
Danielle Pajak
The None two dune and duon messiah like a long time ago. and I didn't like them then um and I tried reading dune again after the movie and I still didn't couldn't get into it. Ah.

32:06.80
Joel McKinnon
What do you think? alienated you in reading those compared to something like Asthmob's future history.

32:13.15
Danielle Pajak
I just don't think Frank Herber is a good writer I know that that might be sacrilegious to his fans. but he he just writes really amaturely immature. very. He gives too much um over what's the term. He just gives too much information like too much information all at once like this info dump from his characters.

32:43.69
Joel McKinnon
Um.

32:51.45
Danielle Pajak
he like hops between character's minds so like he doesn't have like None point of view. you know, usually there's books that have like they're like like George R Martin He has like chapters where they're they're told from different points of view of characters. But not like in the same chapter like all these different points of view from the characters. It makes it really chaotic and it's like why are we jumping from head to head like it is weird.

33:15.33
Joel McKinnon
that might be why I've had some trouble with him too. and you know I've heard people say like Asimov is too I'm dry or too arid in his writing. It's not.

33:33.87
Danielle Pajak
Well I mean yeah, he's not. He's not poetic. He's not he isn't girl his. But yeah.

33:34.70
Joel McKinnon
Flowery enough or something. But yeah yeah I think there are some poetic moments in as that where you know some of his characters speak poetically at on occasion and they there are certain turning points that are so like mind-blowing that.

33:45.36
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

33:53.82
Joel McKinnon
You know there's there's a poetry in them. But yeah, the thing with Asimov is he he was trying to he wrote so relatably you know he wrote about like basic. It seems like he really understood how to tell a story. Yeah and he just set them in.

34:03.45
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

34:08.98
Danielle Pajak
He did? yeah.

34:13.41
Joel McKinnon
Really crazy places and times and and in a way that the the fla is that he made things so relatable that it's kind of absurd how relatable they are. You know that 20000 years in the future people act just the way they do now right? Maybe that's.

34:14.49
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, that.

34:24.10
Danielle Pajak
F is. yeah, and then reading reading newspapers and.

34:32.74
Joel McKinnon
But yeah and I think that there's a attempt if I was writing something 20000 years in the future set to 20000 years in the future I'd be very tempted to make it you know, completely different because that's what I budists expect and it would be like Herbert I would.

34:46.85
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah.

34:52.42
Joel McKinnon
People would have a really hard time understanding what I was talking about. You wouldn't get immersed in the story easily because like you and I've heard that about stevenson from my son neal stevensons books because they're so.

34:54.35
Danielle Pajak
Here? yeah.

35:02.32
Danielle Pajak
Um. Oh.

35:10.17
Joel McKinnon
Much new terminology you have to understand and and everything. But yeah, that could be sacrilegious to people too because there's lots of Stevenson fans and I haven't actually even attempted as stevenson to read Stevenson. So yeah I shouldn't look at him at all.

35:11.36
Danielle Pajak
over to now.

35:23.65
Danielle Pajak
yeah I haven't heard of mention his books. So um, so yeah, you know I So I don't really enjoy the books but I loved the movie like so much. Um.

35:29.12
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, um.

35:39.31
Joel McKinnon
What do you think about Vi News approach I mean you said you love to arrival. So did I But what? what do you think is different about him. Why is he.

35:41.44
Danielle Pajak
Like what. Yeah, um, um, to me he captures um the idea that I was talking about earlier about Beauty and Science fiction. the spiritual um the head the heavenly the sublime. Um. He understands, um, that deeper reality within Science fiction. it's in it in arrival in Blade Runner 2049 it just like it just fills you like especially and he's also a very visual like oh. Film make filmmaking is visual but he's like very visceral tactile um, is about the shapes and the textures and the sound and he like has it enbe you and fill you up? yeah.

36:28.71
Joel McKinnon
So.

36:36.20
Joel McKinnon
You feel the feel the um, the space he's creating right? Yeah, that's that was what really struck me with um well.

36:43.83
Danielle Pajak
Ah.

36:53.59
Joel McKinnon
Wait no he didn't do by runner 2049 do yeah, that was him oh ge's yeah, well then yeah I definitely understand that and and I can definitely get that in arrival and in um, and in dune you know.

36:55.21
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, he did. Yeah.

37:09.85
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:12.50
Joel McKinnon
That the the dune was very immersive and just you felt like you were in that space and getting thirsty in the desert.

37:17.58
Danielle Pajak
And I and just just the yeah the desert and just you know do he create he he there's so much symbolism in Dune So like the desert is like representative of eternity you know in that connection to space the eternity of space and. 1 of my one of my favorite posters Ofdu which is where they it has like ah it's like really simplistic. It has a semicircle like pure black semicircle and then there's like the dune on the. Right side so it looks like a black hole like the event Horizon of a black hole. and then there's polyttras. Um like little small polyttrades climbing over the dew and it just like to me that image Represents Science fiction right? there just like. In the presence of the singularity of the heavenly of the the but of the divine and it's it's this traveling without and traveling within you know discovery.

38:16.90
Joel McKinnon
A.

38:27.32
Joel McKinnon
right? So how do you think we talked a little bit about Herbert's um and his writing and how they're how it's the same and different from aziovb's future.

38:33.27
Danielle Pajak
So that's why um.

38:44.59
Danielle Pajak
President.

38:46.58
Joel McKinnon
can you explain that a little bit that like how you see the differences in the way they describe the food.

38:49.90
Danielle Pajak
yeah I was trying to think about that because I mean I'm not overfully familiar I'm like I'm like recently just learning Herbert's world um but to me they're kind of similar in the sense that they're both very humanistic futures. It's all you know. No aliens or anything. It's just humans spreading out into the galaxy. Very so celerate celebratory of the human spirit. if Fred Kirby even goes further where he doesn't even allow robots or Ai or computers. In his future because there was in his history. There was um, something called the butler in jihad where they destroyed all their computers and Ais because they thought anything that tried to replicate humanity was like. Ah, sinful thing like horrible so they got rid of all their robots and everything.

39:49.92
Joel McKinnon
That's kind of interesting because I'm thinking about the Foundation Tv show and they they've made these references to the Robot Wars that happened and and there aren't any robots anymore. Yeah.

39:55.42
Danielle Pajak
Oh right? Yeah I did not like that I did not like that they did that. Yeah.

40:05.30
Joel McKinnon
Well I we could talk a ah long time about Foundation Tv it's to me, it's it's um I have to see them as completely different stories.

40:18.17
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, they are.

40:20.79
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and I think they're they're serving very different aims. Well they're serving a very different audience than you know what Asmama wrote for and what what they're trying to. They're trying to reach millions of New New viewers who are not cut from the same cloth as like the kind of people who yeah.

40:24.53
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, that's true.

40:38.26
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

40:40.65
Joel McKinnon
None right? Azama back in the mid None century right? yeah.

40:45.30
Danielle Pajak
That's true. so another similarity between asthov and Herbert is that they both have this idea about guiding humanity to a better future. Ah.

40:58.45
Joel McKinnon
Um.

41:01.80
Danielle Pajak
So was asimmas psychoistory for Frank Herbert is the the Ben a jesuit is ah um of um I don't know what the word is, but there're they're witches that have you know they they control. Politics of the imperium from these shadows and and they can control genetics and um, they had their bena jesir its like marry into different dukes to like spread the seed that they want to create the. There are chosen one. The quiz are hy rock pronouncing it right? written.

41:42.61
Joel McKinnon
Which is like the um, the male version right of the ah the that can see the the future or no see the the ancestors experience the ancestors but they can the female ones can only and um.

41:54.45
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, the past and the future like so the per for it for sleeping space that.

42:02.60
Joel McKinnon
Experience The female ancestors right? and the and the um, what's it called the quisite Quisette Hoterar can can theoretically experience needs both male and females and so so I can see why they're.

42:03.11
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Quick. Yeah yeah, So yeah, they yeah so they want they want to create the the golden path to a better future.

42:20.68
Joel McKinnon
Aiming for that.

42:27.99
Danielle Pajak
and then it so it's like like Harry Seldon's plan trying to create a better future for his Foundations. But for Frank Herbert it's more negative. he's he's he's used that he incorporates religion. Um. the the benne jesuit create a religion around their chosen one. Um and so religion is seen in this kind of negative light and I think that Asthmov was more. Um. Humble in his approach more honest, um because he was more having a dialogue like the pros and cons of the Foundation.

43:15.60
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and there's that I'm just getting into the depths of None Foundation now and this understanding that the the Foundation is getting that they are being guided by the None Foundation and they don't like it.

43:22.81
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah.

43:31.98
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, and yeah, thank you.

43:35.23
Joel McKinnon
And they're not reacting against it his seeing them as the enemy. Yeah, that were really designed to be their allies and but they they they're revolting at the idea of being guided invisibly by somebody else. Yeah.

43:48.62
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, there's that idea of like free will like do they have free will.

43:53.89
Joel McKinnon
Right? And and everybody yeah desperately wants to believe they're important and that they um they don't have. They're not just yeah, um, you know cogs in a machine. Yeah, that are right.

43:58.60
Danielle Pajak
the.

44:07.92
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, and and then and then you know Asov you know, like in his sequels after the the original trilogy you know he he's bringing in um the the planet gaia and.

44:13.10
Joel McKinnon
Yeah.

44:27.45
Danielle Pajak
The concept of galaxia and the the one one mind. so yeah, he I feel like he was um, you know and we talked about this before on the internet he was like trying to um, figure it out.

44:44.44
Joel McKinnon
Right? right? I got that feeling especially in Foundation on Earth that he it was like just ah I like the argument with himself of like which white makes sense which way way do I want things to go and.

44:45.50
Danielle Pajak
As he was writing it. Um.

44:54.60
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

45:03.69
Joel McKinnon
He couldn't really settle on which was the preferred outcome and he was still driving for it and and he was kind of like writing aloud you know of what he was thinking you know through that very different than most of his stories.

45:07.98
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah. Um.

45:19.67
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

45:21.58
Joel McKinnon
Where he seems to be kind of like totally in control of the the narrative and there he's kind of getting lost in his own narrative and his own hard. Yeah self questioning about it but it was like.

45:28.70
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, and which which you know which I which I appreciated even though it was sad he never he never got to finish it. Um I appreciated that because I was like you know I love that aspect of you know of the arguments. Between the None the characters and their their perspectives and like what this would mean for humanity and um, you know I like being I like how it would you know has you join in with that that conversation whereas I feel like Frank Herbert making statements um about um religion in people's connection with myth and mythology that is kind of arrogant from my perspective like.

46:19.76
Joel McKinnon
Is he was more declarative about this is this is how it is and I'm just going to explain it to you where yeah and I yeah I I feel like maybe um, the problem Asimov found was that.

46:24.60
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:38.18
Joel McKinnon
He was running out of time and he wanted to to finish the story but he didn't really know how he how it should end yet and he didn't have time to to sit there and ponder for forever and figure out what the best solution was so he had to kind of just write. What was what was going on in his head. Yeah, and.

46:38.19
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah.

46:44.76
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I know.

46:54.80
Danielle Pajak
But but.

46:57.96
Joel McKinnon
What's interesting is there I've seen a lot of people on the internet on Reddit especially and our asov that don't like that those last couple the or the sequels particularly especially Foundation and earth because they you know it's that it's described as.

47:07.78
Danielle Pajak
Oh they don't.

47:15.37
Joel McKinnon
Just a lot of bickering between Bliss and Golan Trevize. and there is definitely is some bickering between them. But it yeah and and what ah what was really interesting talking to um Akinia in the history and found History Foundation episode.

47:17.31
Danielle Pajak
but yeah, which you know I thought was hilarious, but.

47:29.16
Danielle Pajak
oh good. Oh really.

47:34.86
Joel McKinnon
Ah, he loved that Foundation on Earth more than he said that was his favorite book and yeah, he he really loved the philosophical implications of that argument. You know that that the other books didn't appeal to him as much where it was you know, kind of just. Ah.

47:44.27
Danielle Pajak
yeah, oh.

47:51.55
Joel McKinnon
Adventure and mystery and here's the resolution. You know it's like he He really liked the open endeded aspect of that. Yeah I really.

47:53.94
Danielle Pajak
okay, yeah, well yeah I mean I think the sequels are you know, almost on par with the original trilogy. yeah, they're different.

48:07.55
Joel McKinnon
Well, they're different and some is some ways some ways better in some aspects. What? Ah what I there's another aspect of the ah Foundation on Earth I Love is just that the Grand adventure of returning to earth and and finding and and reencountering.

48:13.54
Danielle Pajak
Great.

48:20.20
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I Love that.

48:27.55
Joel McKinnon
Worlds like Sallaria and Aurora and especially if you've read them before you know before you read read the sequels then you're like oh my god he's talking to me this is this is something that you know I love and I've always had in in my head and here it's like.

48:28.28
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah.

48:46.20
Joel McKinnon
We're back. You know to these worlds and and yeah None of years later you know from the over I don't know how much at least several thousand years afterwards and.

48:50.58
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. yeah, um.

48:59.49
Joel McKinnon
You see the decline and the decay of the Aurora and you see you know what became of the robots on solaria and it's just fascinating what he did with that. Yeah.

49:05.92
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah I agree.

49:16.12
Joel McKinnon
So anyway, um.

49:21.15
Danielle Pajak
like.

49:21.81
Joel McKinnon
Tropes sci-fi concepts this is something I know we've talked about a lot on on on Twitter. yeah, yeah, so what are some of your favorite tropes we can go through them 1 by one. We've already talked about robots.

49:27.85
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, 1 argument but.

49:37.80
Danielle Pajak
Well yeah, robots are my favorite pretty much I mean ah there to me. They're separate from ai um I know Ai is more I mean I guess I guess how 9000 from 2000 spaceile that you see.

49:39.46
Joel McKinnon
Little bit. Yeah.

49:56.75
Danielle Pajak
Was could to be considered Ai but um and I loved him but I don't know I I love the robot I love robots but but I know but I I hurt but I will.

50:01.70
Joel McKinnon
you're not supposed to love him. You're not supposed to love him. He was evil No I I did too especially when they were shutting him down I really help all bad for him. But yeah.

50:14.77
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, but did you see to that to um, 22010 is um, the sequel. oh oh wow yeah

50:21.58
Joel McKinnon
I did but it's so long ago I I can't really it didn't stick in my head like 2001 did I actually saw 2001 in the theater as I'm old enough that I got to see it as a yeah I was like my might have been my first movie I saw in the theater.

50:37.88
Danielle Pajak
Oh wow oh my god yeah but in 2000 and the two that in the sequel um hell gets redeemed. Yeah.

50:40.96
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and and I was like 9 years old and yeah yeah, something like that. They.

50:52.37
Joel McKinnon
oh okay.

50:56.64
Danielle Pajak
He there's like an explanation for what happened to him and it's not his fault for. But yeah, yeah, and now.

50:58.18
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, now it's coming back to me I don't remember the explanation but I seem to remember that he gets off the hook a little bit a little too late for Frank Poole and all the the sleepers that.

51:16.46
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, they didn't get a chance. But so yeah I love you know on course I you know I love the robots the calons in Orville like I love them so much. yeah.

51:17.64
Joel McKinnon
Got no at least they didn't suffer.

51:30.74
Joel McKinnon
So many questions about those Kalon Yeah with did they were they justified in. You know their revolt against the builders. Yeah, and there again.

51:34.87
Danielle Pajak
Yeah life.

51:42.37
Danielle Pajak
Oh right? yeah. But.

51:48.56
Joel McKinnon
There's no 3 laws with the kaylon. So it's like where do they cross the line to saying it's okay to kill humans or their builders. Yeah, and that's a very provocative idea because we're going to be facing something similar before too long.

52:02.29
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, but yeah I'm kind of like let's just not do this I Just hate everything that about the Ai that's been being developed.

52:07.79
Joel McKinnon
Where you know in a few decades at least or worthwhile the.

52:20.33
Joel McKinnon
Well, the big question is can they become sentient you know and if they can become sentient then it's damn important to put proper values into them. You know, have you ever read super intelligence by.

52:21.87
Danielle Pajak
Like no. Yeah.

52:38.23
Danielle Pajak
No I have it Oh ha.

52:38.96
Joel McKinnon
Nick Bostrom that'll give you nightmares it's it's nonfiction speculative nonfiction stuff but it's about like his thesis for why we're being incredibly naive about Ai and that. In thinking that we will be able to control you know super intelligence when it becomes conscious and we think well well we'll just shut it off. No it. It will know that we'll just want to shut it off. Yeah and it's not that simple so we we need to give it the right values and.

53:00.55
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

53:08.30
Danielle Pajak
Um.

53:16.95
Joel McKinnon
How do you fix those values so that they don't change you know because if it's super intelligent. You know it might just say screw those values don't make sense to us those are your values.

53:20.12
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

53:27.86
Danielle Pajak
That's true. Ah well I think we could just put the 3 laws you know 3 laws are pretty basic and.

53:34.30
Joel McKinnon
Exactly Yeah and I think that one thing I've been hoping with the Foundation Tv series is just the idea of bringing Alza Mob's concepts back into the discourse.

53:48.59
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

53:52.86
Joel McKinnon
You know and and but they're not really doing a good job of bringing the 3 laws in yet. They're.

53:56.90
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I was wondering if they even had the rights to 3 laws.

54:00.65
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and I heard they didn't have the rights to the Robot stories yet but they were negotiating for them. So maybe season two could be very different. You know if they got those right rights and they started to really make that part of the story and I.

54:05.10
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, Okay, okay.

54:16.31
Danielle Pajak
Okay.

54:19.97
Joel McKinnon
I've heard what's his name. Oh come on the the um show Runnner help me out get starts this G I'm good I have to edit this.

54:25.47
Danielle Pajak
Oh um, ah I forgot his name. But yeah I know here's ah.

54:40.88
Danielle Pajak
Goyer. But yeah.

54:41.53
Joel McKinnon
Of course David Goyer um who I I actually really like him when I've heard him talk and. And I think he's got a lot of really cool ideas and it's he's got a really a lot of talent and I think that that's that was what gives me hope that it could still be a really good show in the long run. but he he was saying that he takes the three laws seriously and that he wants to work with them.

54:57.74
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

55:12.38
Danielle Pajak
Oh okay.

55:16.30
Joel McKinnon
So yeah, maybe he knows that they're those rights are going to come through and you know he's going to start putting the good to the story.

55:19.24
Danielle Pajak
I mean that would be awesome I mean I didn't really get the vibe that he took the 3 laws seriously in the None

55:27.25
Joel McKinnon
Well Dan yeah that Demer Zell is a little bit not proper with the first law. But yeah, you can always say it's 0 wide and and that's the the get out of jail free card for her right? yeah.

55:32.44
Danielle Pajak
Yeah but but yeah, but um, so yeah, but but you know the the other aspect of Ais is for me is. The loss of our um of our own humanity. Um through ai like just relying on um, algorithms and yeah, you know, putting everything into a box.

55:52.57
Joel McKinnon
Um.

56:08.58
Danielle Pajak
Ah, formula. Um I've seen the Ai generated art I've seen the ai generated stories and I just as an artist I hate it. But.

56:17.56
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah I can see why you would Well the the thing that's missing is is biochemistry and emotions that come from our our nerve endings that and all these.

56:26.86
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Yeah.

56:36.72
Joel McKinnon
Crazy chemicals moving through our our brains and our bodies that you know create mood and that I don't know if you if we're going to have to find a way of simulating that or like injecting that into artificial intelligence or or maybe.

56:38.43
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

56:56.15
Joel McKinnon
Maybe we're on the wrong track with like a digital approach to artificial intelligence and that it won't become like humans sufficiently like humans in and ah in that regard until we come. You know have biological kind of. Computers. Yeah, that have have glands and things that you know are unpredictable. A little bit you know and can yeah yeah, have wax and wane. You know in certain ways that like and not just straightforward.

57:16.80
Danielle Pajak
That would be easy.

57:28.40
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Well yeah, it's I just I just worry for just our own humanity.

57:34.84
Joel McKinnon
Algorithmic like you're saying.

57:41.89
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, but then when soon as this is why the the Orville's approach to it is so interesting because you know we're going to run into that same situation if we get sentient creatures then we have to really rethink our.

58:00.31
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah.

58:00.68
Joel McKinnon
Relationship with them. We can't treat them as just our servants anymore because they'll they'll have their own free will and we have to respect that and I think attempting to control what like they did on the show.

58:08.85
Danielle Pajak
yeah, and.

58:19.82
Joel McKinnon
Is going to result in something similar at some point right? Yeah, hopefully the 1 thing that the builders seem to 1 thing that's really interesting to me about the builder' situation with callon is that they're all confined to 1 planet.

58:20.15
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, oh yeah.

58:38.34
Joel McKinnon
What if the builders had or you know developed space travel they seem to be pretty pretty technological and escaped the planet and gone on to settled different worlds then this would have been much more difficult for the klon to wipe them out.

58:42.49
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

58:51.68
Danielle Pajak
Right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah I didn't even think about that.

58:58.27
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and maybe there's builders still around somewhere. Yeah, that would be cool.

59:01.65
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, he could. He can always bring it back that would be that would be really cool then then they then the calon would have to face their their what they did.

59:15.90
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, and they might look at it differently. Yeah with the this this um timist situation is going to come into play I think it's something is's gonna.

59:19.95
Danielle Pajak
Diagra.

59:27.18
Danielle Pajak
Okay, yeah.

59:32.61
Joel McKinnon
That's going to become like some new wave of ah Kalon rights to become emotive and there will be like the division between the emotive calon and the non-immotive Ka one and maybe some kind of Civil war.

59:40.19
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Ah, that would be that would be really cool you like there's like so many ways he could take this like.

59:50.86
Joel McKinnon
Thing. Yeah, yeah, just why it's just brilliant. Yeah, um oh I'm I'm sorry if I've totally forgot we we need to talk about the the passing of Nico Nicom today yeah

01:00:04.96
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, yeah I know.

01:00:09.24
Joel McKinnon
There've actually been two great losses in the last few days and we just missed a chance to talk about 1 when you mentioned Gaia because J James Love walk the guy who came up with the guy principle just passed at 103

01:00:23.35
Danielle Pajak
oh I can go back? Oh wow.

01:00:28.72
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, he he was the co-creator of it with Lynn Margillis was um, Sagan's wife I believe I think so and they they both came out with the book which was released very soon just a little bit before.

01:00:35.63
Danielle Pajak
Ok.

01:00:48.29
Joel McKinnon
Foundation on earth so that his Asimov's discussion of that concept was based on that concept coming out in the book gaia and it was like kind of took took the the world by storm for for a little bit before it got.

01:00:48.67
Danielle Pajak
Oh.

01:00:58.00
Danielle Pajak
Okay, so.

01:01:08.27
Joel McKinnon
Beaten down by the yeah, the established scientists. There's you can't think of things that you.

01:01:09.47
Danielle Pajak
yeah I but that like puts a whole different context perspective like because I thought um I mean I've heard of the Gaia principle but like I I just thought Asimov was like making it up himself. What.

01:01:24.44
Joel McKinnon
No, no, you just it was an unknown principle already and um yeah, he extended it in his own way and he all thought of it it as and in his own way. Ah, but yes, nial um I was just reading her wiki after here in the last couple hours

01:01:29.50
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:40.73
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:01:44.20
Joel McKinnon
To to get some thoughts on her life. Just amazing. How important she was not just as being yeah, the None black character on and popular tv in a multi-rac.

01:01:51.50
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:02:04.30
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, it's context and and the famous first kiss which wasn't the None kiss between black normal person on Tv um, but um, she she became really um, involved in Nasa yeah, and and ah.

01:02:05.34
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Yeah, but but but.

01:02:18.26
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I know I love that that she did that.

01:02:24.14
Joel McKinnon
Recruited a lot of the the the groundbreaking astronauts you know, female and african-american astronauts were from her efforts and ah 1 of the saddest things I read in her wiki is that her. Um.

01:02:31.84
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:02:43.60
Joel McKinnon
2 of her recruits died in challenger Judith Resnick and ah mcnair Dr. Mcnair roland de mcnair think um and and that must have just rocked her because she must. They must have been.

01:02:45.99
Danielle Pajak
Oh. None

01:02:58.80
Danielle Pajak
yeah is.

01:03:03.36
Joel McKinnon
Very close and she must have just held. Yeah great hope for them and she must have felt terrible about it and then ah the other one that struck me another great tragedy for her as her son who was it her son or know her her.

01:03:07.89
Danielle Pajak
I know.

01:03:21.92
Danielle Pajak
did it.

01:03:22.99
Joel McKinnon
Ah, brother She had a younger brother who was a member of the heavens gate cult that committed did a mass suicide and he was one of them. Yeah I didn't know that either and um.

01:03:27.79
Danielle Pajak
Oh oh my God I did not know that.

01:03:42.10
Joel McKinnon
But yeah, that's that's rough those and those weren't ah too far apart I don't think yeah, but yeah, she's she was great. One.

01:03:42.24
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I can't even imagine that.

01:03:51.82
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, she was. You know she lived her character in reality. But yeah.

01:03:56.54
Joel McKinnon
But you know she did so much wonderful. Had so much wonderful impact on our science fiction landscape you know with our current. Yeah how important Star Trek is how much it got accepted into the zeitgeist and everything.

01:04:10.60
Danielle Pajak
And.

01:04:16.50
Joel McKinnon
Ah, so the other another um sci-fi trope time travel. We should talk about that. yeah, yeah, so what do you think about the way strange New Worlds just handled it. Um.

01:04:20.61
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, type the controversial trove. Um.

01:04:30.59
Danielle Pajak
Ah, yeah I mean New Truckk They they introduced the time crystals with yeah.

01:04:31.82
Joel McKinnon
In the their last episode.

01:04:39.62
Joel McKinnon
Which seems a little bit like of a cheat. Yeah, but if it then again, all' every time travel story is a little bit of a cheat right? There's no way you can do it? Yeah but I.

01:04:47.85
Danielle Pajak
With yeah Facebook.

01:04:52.15
Danielle Pajak
I Guess a little bit but.

01:04:58.21
Joel McKinnon
Ah, kind of like the way the Orville did it. You know there I think the the 1 flaw to me is that the cheat is this idea of you can you'll just go where you're thinking about what you're thinking about like Gordon was like thinking about Laura's time so

01:05:12.93
Danielle Pajak
That's true. Yeah.

01:05:17.30
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah.

01:05:17.61
Joel McKinnon
That's where he went So there's a ah lot of like and mystery hand waving there about like the unconscious is like participates in this technology in some unspecified way but it works. You know it makes it and they did exactly the same thing in Foundation for.

01:05:23.11
Danielle Pajak
yeah. yeah.

01:05:36.63
Joel McKinnon
Like in in the Tv show where the the the ships would that the what's it called the invictus The the big giant chips jump ship would that you know you'd have to plug into it and them just think about where you were going to.

01:05:44.68
Danielle Pajak
in.

01:05:55.38
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, so yeah, yeah.

01:05:56.57
Joel McKinnon
Where you wanted to go and it would jump there and that's how so Harden got back to terminus was yeah yeah so I don't know if there is a good way of doing time travel that satisfies. But the end of eternity was pretty satisfying.

01:06:12.78
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, well yeah, the end of attorneys like 1 of you know one of my obviously one of my favorite asmas books just that that one sparked my imagination so much. And yeah.

01:06:24.27
Joel McKinnon
I Just loved it and I had no idea I was going to love that book so much and it just blew me away. it's not just the time travel aspect but just the ideas that it brings out like about you know what.

01:06:30.28
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:06:38.10
Danielle Pajak
thank you.

01:06:43.25
Joel McKinnon
Humanity needs to do in the future. You know like do we want to find a way to just kind of um, develop ah ah, a system that makes everybody as comfortable as possible and and it gives us as it.

01:06:43.74
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:06:58.71
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:07:03.50
Joel McKinnon
Provides you know a high enough lifestyle a good enough lifestyle to everyone indefinitely or do we want to take incredible risks to to change and and put ourselves into a situation where we're forced to adapt and evolve to.

01:07:07.27
Danielle Pajak
Go to.

01:07:13.75
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:07:20.20
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, even in that if it's painful.

01:07:21.78
Joel McKinnon
Into new beings. Yeah, one of the things I think about a lot of science fiction is it doesn't think about humans changing significantly. But the problem there is like what we already talked about if you if you change too much then you lose people right.

01:07:31.99
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah.

01:07:41.76
Joel McKinnon
And so you want to keep people as people but in reality that's not likely to be the outcome. You know when we start to move into completely different. Yeah situations where there's different gravity in different atmospheres and.

01:07:51.10
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:07:59.84
Joel McKinnon
All that kind of stuff. The evolution is going to take over and like change people to be different and in fundamental ways and you you mentioned earlier about aliens and how the the um the aliens and Star Trek and um.

01:08:03.52
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:08:11.52
Danielle Pajak
so the.

01:08:19.47
Joel McKinnon
And in the Orville and a lot of lot of science fiction are they're they're kind of like variations on humans. They've got brow ridges and things but they're they're pretty much humans because that's.

01:08:26.75
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, there Yeah, just a different just like different. They're therere they're different ways of like exploring our humanity like they're kind of like representations of different aspects of our humanity.

01:08:41.34
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, right? yeah is the the crazy astrology people that um you know wanted to throw Kelly and bordus in the ah prison camp because they were born under a wrong star and lots of different ones. But.

01:08:53.89
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:09:01.70
Joel McKinnon
What what strikes me is and this come I was thinking about this back when I was doing the one with Stephen Webb on the science and Foundation. How the it's not particularly likely that we're going to find. Intelligent aliens anywhere close to our solar system. You know it's becoming much less likely you know the more you study all the different ways that it's incredibly difficult to develop an intelligent life.

01:09:21.63
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:34.35
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, but.

01:09:39.66
Joel McKinnon
And how blessed this solar system is in so many ways. Um and so but so the reality of it may be much like you know Asmaov wrote it where there aren't any aliens and I I read that he wrote.

01:09:41.46
Danielle Pajak
Brother.

01:09:49.66
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:09:55.42
Joel McKinnon
That he came up with that idea of there not being any aliens in his galaxy because he realized that aliens would destroy humans. They'd be so advanced over so that that would be the end if we met an intelligent Alien so he didn't want them right.

01:10:05.81
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:10:13.35
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah I.

01:10:14.88
Joel McKinnon
That ends the story and you know so maybe that's what we should be helping for that. There are no intelligent aliens right? And if if that's the case then we might get a situation where we expand into the galaxy eventually. But what's interesting to me is that.

01:10:26.83
Danielle Pajak
Forever.

01:10:33.38
Joel McKinnon
Even if that was the case humans would develop on different worlds in different ways and you might have something that's similar to what Star Trek has in in that you'd have like these other.

01:10:37.37
Danielle Pajak
over.

01:10:43.45
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, but.

01:10:48.56
Joel McKinnon
Variations of humans that are like klingons or romulans you know that have forty years or whatever. Whatever however, they develop on those worlds. So yeah, that's that's why I would like to see it.

01:10:49.92
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and similar Asimov did the same a similarish idea with all the the different you know, hit the the outer Worlds were different than Earth. You know their original you know. Humanity on Earth was different than humanity out in space because they had it to adapt to the different lifestyles And yeah, yeah.

01:11:18.32
Joel McKinnon
Well I know it either on on the guy on Gaia, especially that was a completely different way that humans developed right.

01:11:33.24
Danielle Pajak
So yeah, but but but I you know I like as Asimov did write a couple Alien stories that were amazing. yeah, and and Nemesis.

01:11:43.48
Joel McKinnon
The gods themselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah I read both of those and I I read the Nemesis not that long ago and I really loved it and it's one of the rare is the only.

01:11:54.87
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:12:02.23
Joel McKinnon
Mom story that I know of that's got more women characters than men. Um and the not just that there's such an interesting dynamic between that protagonist the young, the 15 year old girl and her mother and and how she had.

01:12:04.80
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, but.

01:12:13.91
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah I was very it was very different for Asimma when he like developed as a writer I had up.

01:12:21.53
Joel McKinnon
yeah, yeah, and he um she had that I think it's such an Asimopian concept of not mental control but just ability to read body language extremely well.

01:12:37.55
Danielle Pajak
Are.

01:12:40.31
Joel McKinnon
And so her her mother couldn't bullshit her about anything because she always knew exactly when her mother was lying to her right? that was just fascinating.

01:12:42.97
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, so you know I you know asthma as um, Aliens are like very otherworldly, especially in God's themselves. Like that they're in another dimension and how they fsed you like separate parts and then they fuse together.

01:13:07.89
Joel McKinnon
and that that the this the sex life group were were acquired had 3 genders that had to mix in like a cloud some in some way that that was really fascinating. Yeah.

01:13:18.22
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, so you know I like I love I Love the golden age of Science fiction. because um, the aliens were more imaginative. Um I feel. Um.

01:13:36.51
Joel McKinnon
But let's just sp brow ridges and and completely different forms. Yeah tentacle of the know that.

01:13:38.10
Danielle Pajak
You know I love I love. Yeah, um, yeah, and you know of course I love all the aliens and in star trek and the Oreville but I feel like ever since the movie alien that came out back in the 80 all aliens kind of look the same now in movies they look like alien even even in the new star trek which you know the the strange new worlds which I loved even the gon how they designed the gorn. The redesigned was very alien like.

01:14:01.59
Joel McKinnon
yeah, yeah, that's big of Trump.

01:14:16.22
Joel McKinnon
I was thinking back on strange New Worlds and thinking I preferred the gor one We didn't see them yet. You know, not not because of the canon violations or anything I I was able to kind of put T O S gorn completely aside.

01:14:22.55
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:14:32.43
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah.

01:14:35.40
Joel McKinnon
But just the the um that feeling of the complete mystery of what they were was so powerful in that one story with their None encounter with them where they never actually saw one but they got the very clear sense of how dangerous they were.

01:14:42.28
Danielle Pajak
That's true.

01:14:50.92
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, that yeah, that was true. Yeah yeah, which new truck isn't very they. They're not very subtle so they don't so.

01:14:54.44
Joel McKinnon
Then when we eventually see them. They're just yeah yeah, but you know when the the new Trek shows that I've just given me a lot that I've been thinking about his ghosts of illyria because it it was um.

01:15:07.85
Danielle Pajak
Oh.

01:15:12.96
Joel McKinnon
Flawed in a lot of ways I mean the whole vitamin vitamin a vitamin D thing like that the problem was as of insufficient Vitamin D and they had to get lots of light is you know what they wanted and that made no sense at all, but the.

01:15:16.44
Danielle Pajak
oh do you? Oh yeah.

01:15:30.35
Joel McKinnon
Thing that I I loved was this idea of the legitimacy of changing this kind of goes back to what I was just talking about with humans adapting and and evolving to to suit their worlds that you know they're.

01:15:43.60
Danielle Pajak
See.

01:15:47.55
Joel McKinnon
They were kicked out of the Foundation. The Ilinerians were kicked out in the Foundation. What's it called the the federation there you go. They're kicked out of the federation for the crime of the sin of changing themselves essentially right right? and it seems like that shouldn't be.

01:15:52.47
Danielle Pajak
That's federation. That's 4

01:15:58.80
Danielle Pajak
oh yeah, that's the outcome.

01:16:05.68
Joel McKinnon
Like ah um I I can see because of the Eugenics Wars It was and a taboo but really, you know that's seems like ah a valid thing to do and and why insist on staying the same in a.

01:16:07.26
Danielle Pajak
Is a.

01:16:17.17
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, that's true.

01:16:24.29
Joel McKinnon
And an environment that's quite different. It makes sense to adapt to it.

01:16:26.69
Danielle Pajak
And yeah, and you know and Star Trek is all about you know evolving. So it's like yeah maybe if you know the may I would hope maybe they would. They're gonna explore that in the second season. Um.

01:16:41.81
Joel McKinnon
It's there's a lot they could do in the second season and I feel like that it was a great show and I really enjoyed it and I think I would have had a very different feeling about it if I hadn't discovered the Orville halfway through it and the and the new series of the Orville because that that that bothered me is that.

01:16:44.12
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:16:51.96
Danielle Pajak
Oh.

01:16:59.48
Joel McKinnon
Every Thursday I had like which one do I watch None and at first it is of course strange new worlds and because that was the pattern and then all now it took only a couple of weeks before I was watching the orbiville None and that's why I stopped doing submissions to open fire.

01:17:06.70
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:17:17.62
Joel McKinnon
Because I was still pondering the Orville's latest show and and like I don't I can't really do any thinking about the strange new worlds what happened.

01:17:27.63
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, you know.

01:17:31.10
Joel McKinnon
And and that's a shame because there were great ideas with and concepts with the bemer Hammer Hammer's um, Hammer's sacrifice for the crew was great. Beautiful.

01:17:39.46
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know I love the season you know I feel like it's definitely going in a better direction for new trick. Yeah.

01:17:53.76
Joel McKinnon
Then other new track you mean? yeah and I I can't slam new trackk because I haven't really explored it yet. But I've heard lots of things that people have complained about I actually watched the first 2 cards and had a hard time with them and.

01:18:01.54
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, yeah, it gets worse from there. So I know I know.

01:18:13.31
Joel McKinnon
I had high hopes for picard too because it was um I I thought well Picard's not going to come back and do a show unless he's got brilliant writing and didn't have brilliant writing.

01:18:25.59
Danielle Pajak
That's what you would think. but but I mean a it especially when I heard about the second season which is even worse in the first season. Kind of like diminish my admiration for Patrick Stewart because I'm like why did you sign on for this.

01:18:44.90
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, and now it's really tempting to get back into it with the return of all the the Tng G cast yeah that that just I'd love to see all those people again in your in stories. But.

01:18:52.33
Danielle Pajak
All right? Yeah, they think they snare you back in. I know.

01:19:03.65
Joel McKinnon
And want to do new stories with them if they're not written. Well so the writing is really pretty damn important so one more trope I wanted to talk about a little bit is um, alternate history other timelines and stuff and we've seen.

01:19:05.39
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, ah. And move. Yeah.

01:19:20.24
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah.

01:19:23.38
Joel McKinnon
Like great versions of that like it with the orvilles thing with the and what we actually saw in Strange New Worlds too in the final episode with even though it used time crystals. But the the idea of it of the alternate.

01:19:30.76
Danielle Pajak
oh yeah, yeah yeah.

01:19:41.37
Joel McKinnon
Reality of that was was really interesting. Um and whatever is happening with Gordon and Laura you know in the post potentially multiple gordons and who Laura yeah different universes based on.

01:19:48.85
Danielle Pajak
we have.

01:19:58.40
Joel McKinnon
So whatever interpretation of Quantum physics. You want to use it.

01:19:59.47
Danielle Pajak
Yeah I wonder I Wonder how he's gonna handle that in the future I'll I'll be interested because you know as you know I'm not happy with the way he took it still.

01:20:08.40
Joel McKinnon
well yeah, but I think 1 rule that we know is when ah when ah ah, an episode ends ambiguously in any way there's another episode coming later.

01:20:19.12
Danielle Pajak
Input german.

01:20:24.71
Danielle Pajak
yeah, that's true. Okay.

01:20:27.66
Joel McKinnon
It's going to take up the story and explore that loose end. So that's why I think for sure we're going to see Laura again one way or another that's going to come back and they might have a hard time explaining it but they'll find a way because they've got to bring that back.

01:20:40.77
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, but I hope so.

01:20:45.40
Joel McKinnon
That's that's my bet and I wanted to tell you about um, a novel I read all of the in the country of the blind by Mike Flynn um that I found really fascinating in just the idea because it's so similar to.

01:20:51.43
Danielle Pajak
over the lift.

01:21:04.50
Danielle Pajak
The.

01:21:04.71
Joel McKinnon
Ah, psychohistory and it's set in it begins in the um, well I guess it begins like in the 70 s or something it was contemporary or a little earlier from when it was written and it's this woman who's a brilliant scientist. Mathematician and for some reason she's doing real estate but she discovers like she wants to buy this old building and she finds these old mid mid none century computing machines.

01:21:41.76
Danielle Pajak
Oh.

01:21:44.10
Joel McKinnon
and in the early None century. There was a guy named Charles Babbage that created a um, an idea for ah ah a very sophisticated computation machine a computer.

01:21:48.40
Danielle Pajak
and then.

01:21:58.37
Danielle Pajak
So a and well.

01:22:02.54
Joel McKinnon
Like long before computers right? but he he came up with this concept and drew up plans for it that have been lost and so there was no ah it's not clear if he ever actually built one but in the story.

01:22:10.30
Danielle Pajak
Well.

01:22:17.70
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:22:20.79
Joel McKinnon
Was the premise of it. He did he succeeded in building them and like a small group of people became adept at using them and learned how to predict the future of what was going to happen coming up and they they. But basically yeah.

01:22:30.77
Danielle Pajak
O.

01:22:38.68
Joel McKinnon
They call this cleology not psychoistory cleology based on Cleo is the the goddess of goddess of time I think Greek kindness of time and they um say anyway they.

01:22:39.27
Danielle Pajak
Okay, okay. Okay, yeah.

01:22:56.23
Joel McKinnon
They basically so they play the stock market and stuff and they become abulously rich and control affairs going into like the the None century and they're behind a lot of these big changes that happened but then they split up into other groups they have like factions that split up and stuff.

01:22:57.76
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:23:04.85
Danielle Pajak
and.

01:23:14.90
Joel McKinnon
And so when you get into like modern times. These factions are still all around. There's like 6 of them all around the world and they're fighting each other under the behind the scenes. So that's yeah, it was. It was pretty cool I really liked it.

01:23:19.67
Danielle Pajak
Oh that's not so fascinating and ah it kind of has you know, kind of reminds me of the eternals as well from end of maternity.

01:23:31.25
Joel McKinnon
The eternals and I've been wanting to check that out. because it came out like right around when I fell in love with the end of eternity. So like not that aware of I'm not a comic book guy so haven't.

01:23:39.97
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:23:46.15
Danielle Pajak
Oh I'm I'm talking about the eternals in the in the end of the turn. He not not the not the comics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:23:50.80
Joel McKinnon
Oh okay, Okay, yeah, no, it's it's much like that like yeah, that's reminiscent of them being like behind the scenes controlling things hearing ah the the optimal way to go forward and not necessarily playing the stock market. But.

01:24:05.56
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, wild to odd to check out that book it sounds really cool. Um I wanted to mention in going back to time travel and technologies.

01:24:09.19
Joel McKinnon
yeah, yeah, and the few notes too.

01:24:24.85
Joel McKinnon
A.

01:24:25.20
Danielle Pajak
Between Orville and star trek um I just I want to know like why Seth Macfarlane like why he didn't have them have transport and um transporters because like.

01:24:39.34
Joel McKinnon
Me.

01:24:42.77
Danielle Pajak
They can do literally everything that Star Trek does but they can't transport So it's like I understand why scientifically they couldn't be able if they can create material. Yeah yeah.

01:24:45.96
Joel McKinnon
yeah, it seems like it seems like they shouldn't be able to have replicators if they can't do transporters. But I think I think it's a ah, really interesting decision to force. Them to to travel physically like to to use the shuttles and it reminds me of Enterprise Star Trek Enterprise because the the transporter was Brand new and nobody trusted it so they used the sh.

01:25:06.70
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know that's what I was thinking maybe that could be the explanation like humanity just was too afraid of it that in in the Orville universe that they never tried so I just I want to know it' not.

01:25:28.35
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah I don't know did that like I guess they could say the replicators can't replicate a ah living being and they they can only replicate inanimate objects.

01:25:40.41
Danielle Pajak
that's true. That's true. Yeah.

01:25:47.27
Joel McKinnon
Ah, we know it can replicate pot brownies.

01:25:53.90
Danielle Pajak
yeah, um, and another interesting aspect about um between the Orville and star trek in the time travel stuff is that um the union has.

01:25:53.64
Joel McKinnon
Apparently doesn't destroy the potency. You know.

01:26:12.85
Danielle Pajak
Them in their you know in the in the Academy um they teach them about time mechanics and time travel I Thought that was really I Love I Love that concept like they actually were like had to go to school for that. But.

01:26:18.24
Joel McKinnon
Are.

01:26:26.21
Joel McKinnon
Right? And right so there so it was really drilled into them. Why you don't mess around and and if you do manage to go back in time and you have to like behave yourself really? well right? her else you're going to stir things.

01:26:32.87
Danielle Pajak
Eda. Yeah, so yeah, but in http://startrekthey didn't you know it was like you know they don't have that and they're just like mucking around time and space and they're they have the the department of temporal investigations.

01:26:46.35
Joel McKinnon
Yeah.

01:26:53.99
Joel McKinnon
is this in like Discovery world.

01:26:54.42
Danielle Pajak
In star trek um, what I mean I I I love that um, it's in um I'm actually in deep space 9 they are mentioned um I never watched that series but I watched those nervouscodes.

01:27:03.49
Joel McKinnon
Um I didn't I didn't do much I Only did a few deep space Nines and and I want to get into it someday. Yeah.

01:27:13.50
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, um, but the concept of that the the temporal and agencies that they investigate all time travel um violations and like James de argue.

01:27:26.10
Joel McKinnon
Which is very much like an end of eternity with that. Ah, you know that you get in big trouble If you don't do the minimum what it was at the minimum the um minimumal minimal allowable change or something.

01:27:31.30
Danielle Pajak
Ah, yeah, um.

01:27:38.42
Danielle Pajak
oh yeah, yeah.

01:27:45.84
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, if you go if you just make big changes like taking your girlfriend into the future. You know that's the way to get in big trouble. Yeah, or.

01:27:49.73
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, it was kind of it's kind of like the eternals in that sense too and um, the funny thing is that James they said that James D Kirk was had like the most. Time travel violations in their history said that was funny. Yeah.

01:28:09.13
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, but James Ticker can just do anything whatever hell he wants because he's good. Yeah, but it that springs back me back to our our discussion about Gordon because um I think it's.

01:28:24.13
Danielle Pajak
Didn't.

01:28:28.91
Joel McKinnon
Clear that Gordon breaks boundaries. He ignores boundaries and that's why he's such a great pilot you know because he doesn't like allow himself to he yeah, he he just basically says why can't I do this you know I'm I'm going to do this.

01:28:31.74
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:28:44.64
Danielle Pajak
yeah, um.

01:28:48.51
Joel McKinnon
Because this is what needs to be done and that's how he pushes himself to intent to becoming incredible and flying so it makes sense to me that he would think the same way about time and you know when he's finds himself back there stranded yeah and he's like.

01:28:54.10
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:28:59.56
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, that's true.

01:29:08.33
Joel McKinnon
Okay, the rules are such now I have to stay here and like be completely invisible until I die but I'm Gordon Malloy now I'm going to do whatever the hill I do think needs to be done you and right now I can't think of any other you know.

01:29:08.88
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. Oh yeah.

01:29:25.53
Joel McKinnon
Better thing than going to find Laura Huggins so or or what started it in the None place you know finding the cell phone you know in the future and saying I'm going to create a simulation of this girl because I'm in love with her at it 1 me her in real life. Yeah, and yeah.

01:29:26.19
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, but.

01:29:33.19
Danielle Pajak
and.

01:29:41.44
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he does and you know and I you know I have grown to love his character fascinated by the the growth of his character. and I do love it.

01:29:45.45
Joel McKinnon
So boundary that he shouldn't grasp.

01:29:55.44
Joel McKinnon
Well, he's he's a well-meaning guy. You know it's not like he's malicious in the way he messes with things but it's a you know he does it doesn't he has a good heart. Yeah, so he's not ah, not really a creep.

01:30:00.10
Danielle Pajak
Yeah. and yeah for. No no.

01:30:13.39
Joel McKinnon
You know you can do creepy things and not seem creepy because he's so got such a great heart. Yeah.

01:30:17.25
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, he's endearing and you know and I hope that you know if they continue the story of his story with Laura that they kind of delve more into the rules of time travel like why they have those rules and. Why they're so absolute.

01:30:38.13
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, it almost seems like to have such absolute rules. They should have like examples of what has happened when people have not followed those rules because generally you don't get rules unless there have been.

01:30:47.58
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, the.

01:30:57.77
Joel McKinnon
Accidents You don't get a stop sign put up unless there's been a collision at an intersection. Yeah, that kind of thing so it yeah brings to mind if they have such training and rules and everything then perhaps there's been some time travel.

01:30:58.67
Danielle Pajak
That's true. Yeah yeah.

01:31:16.30
Joel McKinnon
Incidents in the past that we haven't heard about.

01:31:16.91
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, is ah you know I would hope that he would explain that maybe built due to some more world building with that.

01:31:21.40
Joel McKinnon
f. Yeah, oh I wanted to talk about None more thing we're getting kind of late but um, it's been fascinating I really enjoyed and all um, fantasy. Where do you see the line.

01:31:29.93
Danielle Pajak
The. yeah, oh.

01:31:44.00
Joel McKinnon
between science fiction and fantasy when do then where does it cross over into that.

01:31:47.42
Danielle Pajak
well for me Fantasy is has its roots roots in mythology. so the archetypes you know? um.

01:32:06.47
Danielle Pajak
It's more magical spiritual. Um whereas I see Science fiction more focused on not just not just science. But it's about questioning. It's about Ideas. Um. I Guess so you know there there could be some overlap because like Dune is kind of an overlap kind of Psi fantasy because it it explores mythology as well as Science Fiction Concepts so there can be overlap but it it to me that that boundary is um. Between um I guess. like ideas versus Mythology. Um.

01:32:57.18
Joel McKinnon
It's interesting. You put it in those terms because I wouldn't normally normally think about it that way I think more but more like just violating or doing create. Yeah ah things that we have no that the the author makes no attempt to.

01:33:13.88
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:33:14.98
Joel McKinnon
Blaine right? But I like that this idea of like basing it in mythology because well yeah, as you know I've written a story that have made a podcast of that has um, that's kind of Mythologically based you know and.

01:33:25.15
Danielle Pajak
Oh yeah, that's true.

01:33:34.11
Joel McKinnon
In a way I I kind of think of it as not legitimately sci-fi even though it's kind of set in it. You know and in a universe where like this people where things are explained in a science fiction and kind of a hard science fiction Rapper you know these.

01:33:37.89
Danielle Pajak
a.

01:33:49.86
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:33:52.56
Joel McKinnon
Scientists arrive at this planet and find a beacon and they find something emanating and they like study it and then they find out that it's a story being told and the story is mythology. You know it's ah yeah, and they're they're mythological creatures.

01:34:01.26
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:34:06.99
Danielle Pajak
yeah, and.

01:34:12.38
Joel McKinnon
Story involves characters that are you know heavenly bodies. You know the the planet and the and the sky and they've fallen in love and this is um and then there's the travelers that arrive which is also hard science fiction based.

01:34:15.65
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, you.

01:34:28.57
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:34:30.76
Joel McKinnon
The idea of panspermia but it's like not very well explained how these travelers saw these microbes turn into like these creatures that seem to speak and have communication have conversations back and forth and things like that.

01:34:40.88
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:34:46.95
Danielle Pajak

01:34:48.88
Joel McKinnon
So yeah, um, and and thinking yeah is it So is it scifi or is it fantasy and it feels like maybe it's fantasy because it's got that mythological aspect to it. Um.

01:35:00.12
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, um I guess I guess your I would say your thing is more. It would be a combination of Psy Fantasy kind of overlap. you know.

01:35:07.20
Joel McKinnon
Move.

01:35:15.14
Joel McKinnon
It's interesting in writing it I always feel like I've got to explain things somehow I we'll come up with some way of yeah and that's kind of why threw in the thing about like the the memory clays and how they they keep the um. Yeah, that they record the story and there's actually talked to ah um, a biologist at Nasa an astrobiologist Nasa that I had met already and asked her how can I explain this? How can I make this like.

01:35:33.69
Danielle Pajak
Um.

01:35:39.37
Danielle Pajak
so but.

01:35:50.94
Joel McKinnon
Realistic like explainable without just hand waving it and she helped me come up with that idea of the clay mat that that yeah so it's got some something behind it. But I definitely took took some liberties.

01:35:53.62
Danielle Pajak
That's awesome.

01:35:57.93
Danielle Pajak
Wow, That's really made. Yeah, so I mean you know I you know I Really loved I Really loved your your story so much. So beautiful.

01:36:11.40
Joel McKinnon
Oh good now that we've talked about it I can put it in the show notes again.

01:36:15.66
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, so yeah, you know to your I guess you you have a combination of like that hard science with fantasy so you kind of you're kind of like blending it together. So it's not really hard like 1 genre.

01:36:26.55
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, it will yeah normally things are either sci-fi or fantasy. You know it seems like um and if if something becomes is told as hard sy hard sci-fi which I think Star Trek essentially is introduced as.

01:36:33.98
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:36:46.36
Joel McKinnon
Then it's a violation if it becomes fantasy you know and if you that's what I I didn't like the elyssean mysteries at None or what was it called the illine kingdom yeah because it seemed like they were crossing that boundary into fantasy.

01:36:48.20
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, and.

01:36:53.67
Danielle Pajak
Okay, yeah, and that amazing kingdom. Yeah. I mean the T and G did that? Yeah, but yeah.

01:37:05.14
Joel McKinnon
But there there. There's a tradition of doing that in Star Trek Yeah, as long as you don't stay there I guess and and there was There's some kind of gobble to goook explanation. Yeah,, there's some kind of techno babble about how it works. Yeah, but. That one felt like it a big stretch to me just a nebula that's intelligent. But who knows who knows maybe it's okay.

01:37:25.89
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, well I mean I know there's other a like a capporeal beings in StarTrek kind of like the yeah q yeah.

01:37:34.70
Joel McKinnon
Well yeah, Letters Q right? Yeah, that's probably the most notorious example and in a way I think Q carried it off with Charisma Yeah Q was so so good and so endearing in his way that.

01:37:45.39
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:37:53.63
Joel McKinnon
You didn't want to have it explained to what you didn't want to have it, you wanted it to be. Okay, yeah you you wanted it to be part of Star Trek You know like I'll allow this one because he's cute right? right.

01:37:57.41
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, but.

01:38:04.31
Danielle Pajak
If yeah, well I mean I love the queue and I feel like they you know the Que continuum has so much potential conceptually for Star trek that they didn't like they just like barely scratch the surface. Um I think.

01:38:18.70
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, maybe they needed to dig in a little bit more and explain it to satisfy me but to make me feel like it's not um that I'm I'm accepting this just because I like the the actor doing doing him you know and I like the dynamics of him.

01:38:23.30
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:38:32.66
Danielle Pajak
like.

01:38:38.42
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, and.

01:38:38.55
Joel McKinnon
Taunting Picard and playing games with him right? and there's also q does time travel right? and there is people back in time. Just yeah, you're going to be in the academy.

01:38:50.49
Danielle Pajak
yeah, but he threw picard a time. Yeah.

01:38:57.63
Joel McKinnon
You know and see see what you how why you didn't want to be different than you are and and great idea. Great concept. Yeah.

01:39:03.66
Danielle Pajak
yeah yeah I love that episode even though I can I didn't really I thought it was kind of simplistic of like um. Like um, you know making choices throughout your life like had such a drastic change in Picard's trajectory like it just I don't know that seems a little bit simplistic. But.

01:39:32.77
Joel McKinnon
yeah, yeah, well the other thing that was a little bit hard to follow in that to to swallow in that one was that they made quick hard the same age but actually relates he's supposed to be much younger. Yeah, which was.

01:39:39.00
Danielle Pajak
Ah.

01:39:47.54
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, that was that was weird too. But.

01:39:51.24
Joel McKinnon
Ah, that was weird. oh I know what we didn't talk about but and we should wrap up soon. But the art of storytelling. Yeah, because yeah I'm talking about the art and science fiction getting back to that but the art.

01:39:56.81
Danielle Pajak
oh yeah.

01:40:10.42
Joel McKinnon
Part is like the how's based on storytelling right? And what makes a good story. So do you have any thoughts on there. You want to share.

01:40:13.51
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, um, yeah I mean for me storytelling. you know as like art art has the aspects of communication truth and beauty so storytelling has those aspects as well. But think the emphasis is on truth there has to be ah there has to be ah um, a sense of trueness about our our experiences as Human beings. and um.

01:40:46.93
Joel McKinnon
drawn from life in in a sense.

01:40:50.55
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, drawn from life. But um, also just like um like ah a sense of um I Guess questioning of wonder um not to have. Not to always have everything um, like in a box like I don't like stories that are everything like nicely neatly tied up but have have it be more exploratory having allowing people to interact. With the story like having have a dialogue with it. exploring it inside themselves.

01:41:35.41
Joel McKinnon
and in in reality if that we're drawing from life in reality we're not in a box right? we have we have? we don't have. We're not algorithmic right.

01:41:44.33
Danielle Pajak
yeah, good.

01:41:50.78
Danielle Pajak
That is.

01:41:53.76
Joel McKinnon
We don't have a so we don't We don't wrap things up neatly and we're all struggling to find meaning all the time and what what is the meaning of life. Why are we here and all that is still those are the.

01:41:58.56
Danielle Pajak
No, but.

01:42:07.18
Danielle Pajak
yeah, exactly Putin yeah.

01:42:11.70
Joel McKinnon
Missing walls of our box right? You know sense. So ah, a good story has to has to do away with those walls in in this same way. It can't be constrained and like.

01:42:19.79
Danielle Pajak
yeah, exactly yeah.

01:42:29.53
Joel McKinnon
Algorithmic back to get back to that word.

01:42:29.89
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, and I guess you know sometimes you know it's kind of tempting because I know that um you know I'm I'm pretty I get pretty ah typefisted about my cannon. You know like keeping things in cann. Um.

01:42:43.70
Joel McKinnon
Um.

01:42:49.10
Danielle Pajak
But um I was I was just thinking about like how oftentimes we from our stories we expect um things to be more orderly than reality actually is. So You know we always get upset about our stories if they don't do something that we're comfortable with or um, you know like that's not you know human beings would do that you know that that doesn't seem realistic but it's like you know in reality it's more unpredictable and crazier. Than anything. We couldn't imagine. But so I think maybe you know sometimes you like the the comfort of of the boxes sometimes but.

01:43:26.13
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:43:34.53
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, yeah, it's the the endless space James Webb is scary seeing how far things are and now there's no walls out there I think we need to wrap things up but before we go um.

01:43:40.70
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, yeah, um.

01:43:52.33
Joel McKinnon
Can you tell me about what you're working on what you're doing in mind.

01:43:53.88
Danielle Pajak
yeah, um, I'm working on my own science Fiction story called Infinity's end um very much inspired by the end of eternity from Asma and it's about my own future reality. So I'm extrapolating.

01:44:01.65
Joel McKinnon
Um.

01:44:13.79
Danielle Pajak
How future humanity would be like um and it's centered on the main protagonist is ah a physicist who is trying to discover the end of the universe so in in my in my universe I have it be. Infinite but um, contained so like a circle so it's in there. It's like infiniteity. There's infinity but it's um, self-contained. Yeah i. Studied a lot about some from Stephen Hawking I got some of his ideas he was he was trying to he was kind of like coming up with theories about a contained universe that was or further back in time you go like to the north like the north pole of the sphere in the south plevis sphere.

01:44:56.99
Joel McKinnon
Are.

01:45:08.68
Danielle Pajak
So like there's no beginning or end they just you can't You can't go anymore north the North or South and South So for him time had no beginning or end and just all self-contained So I'm kind of playing with that idea.

01:45:15.83
Joel McKinnon
Um.

01:45:25.84
Danielle Pajak
But my my character is trying to break out of that container. Um.

01:45:27.96
Joel McKinnon
How what? what form is this taking what what kind of how will you present it this story. It's a book or like a novel graphic novel. As of course you have.

01:45:35.39
Danielle Pajak
we mean like oh yeah, it's a graphic novel. Yeah, it's a graphic novel. so it's this illustrated prones. Yeah.

01:45:44.83
Joel McKinnon
Skills in that direction already and certain an artist right? Cool Well um, is there any where anybody can find what you're doing online or anything.

01:45:54.80
Danielle Pajak
Ah, yeah, you can go on my website http://dpillustrations.com that you can find out more information about my my all my art and that project infinities and which I I don't have anything.

01:46:00.43
Joel McKinnon
Are.

01:46:12.10
Danielle Pajak
Ah, for it. Yeah I just have I just have all my preliminary concept art and stuff I haven't finished anything. It's it's It's a huge ambitious work.

01:46:15.91
Joel McKinnon
cool.

01:46:21.55
Joel McKinnon
Yeah, well I I love the idea to develop it. So it's been wonderful talking to you Danielle um, and I encourage anyone who's listening still with us that to to check.

01:46:25.45
Danielle Pajak
but. Yeah, it's been awesome.

01:46:40.15
Joel McKinnon
Out Danielle on Twitter and that would be at sayadina heresy right? And this this iina comes from dune right? It's that yeah and why what's where's the what's the Heresy part.

01:46:44.25
Danielle Pajak
yeah, yeah, she's a it's a um, Heresy is because I'm a Dune ribel.

01:47:01.60
Joel McKinnon
Ah.

01:47:03.13
Danielle Pajak
So I have my own like interpretations of doing that I I kind of Annoy the doing fandom with they don't like my ideas. Yeah.

01:47:13.64
Joel McKinnon
Troublemaker. Okay, and um I'll put that in the show notes for sure people so they know what to reach you because I can tell anyone that Danielle is fun. Follow on Twitter.

01:47:20.32
Danielle Pajak
So.

01:47:30.76
Joel McKinnon
Because she's always always engaged and in whatever cool Science fiction is happening. she's always got really interesting interpretations of things. Great wonderful to argue with.

01:47:36.32
Danielle Pajak
Are.

01:47:45.33
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:47:47.27
Joel McKinnon
Ah, but different interpretations of of the latest episode of the Orville or strange new worlds or whatever. and I look forward to seeing you again there. So yeah, cool. Yeah well I'm glad.

01:47:52.55
Danielle Pajak
yeah. yeah, me too. I'm so glad I got to do this.

01:48:06.29
Joel McKinnon
And I'm going to remind people that this is open Pike's fault because they we had a long exchange going back and forth and you and I were involved in like discussing things back and forth for quite a while and and monopolizing the conversation and.

01:48:08.63
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:48:18.40
Danielle Pajak
yeah.

01:48:24.18
Joel McKinnon
I think it was openpike who was running the account who said you know Sayadina and Joel should be on on their own podcast. So now we are.

01:48:33.29
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, yeah, yeah, open pike Nike as like really inspired us to do stuff go or comfort zones. But.

01:48:44.98
Joel McKinnon
Yep, yeah, that's it's a great concept they have with the None submissions for. So yeah I encourage listeners to check out that which will be in the show notes as well. Okay, and with that I think I'm going to let you go.

01:48:51.83
Danielle Pajak
Yeah.

01:48:56.64
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, good. Okay, okay, yeah, looking forward to.

01:49:02.82
Joel McKinnon
And let me go and we'll talk again somewhere in cyberspace in some this and oh yeah, yeah, we'll be discussing that for sure and anybody who hasn't seen the Orville you must see the Orville.

01:49:11.81
Danielle Pajak
But in the Orville finale next yeah, this week

01:49:19.46
Danielle Pajak
Yeah, ah.

01:49:21.43
Joel McKinnon
And I'm going to be telling you that forever. Okay, and now I have another convert that will back me on that all right? Okay, thank you very much Danielle.

01:49:27.57
Danielle Pajak
Thank you.