To respond to the challenging times we are living through, physician, humanitarian and social justice advocate Dr. Paul Zeitz has identified “Revolutionary Optimism” as a new cure for hopelessness, despair, and cynicism. Revolutionary Optimism is itself an infectious, contagious, self-created way of living and connecting with others on the path of love. Once you commit yourself as a Revolutionary Optimist, you can bravely unleash your personal power, #unify with others, and accelerate action for our collective repair, justice, and peace, always keeping love at the center.
Cee Cee - 00:00:03:
Welcome to Revolutionary Optimism. Issues like economic hardship, a teetering democracy, and the worsening climate emergency have left many Americans feeling more despair than ever. Fortunately, physician, humanitarian, and social justice advocate Dr. Paul Zeitz has identified Revolutionary Optimism as a new cure for that hopelessness and cynicism. Once you commit yourself as a revolutionary optimist, you can bravely unleash your personal power, hashtag unify with others, and accelerate action for our collective repair, justice, and peace. On this podcast, Dr. Zeitz is working to provide you with perspectives from leaders fighting for equity, justice, and peace on their strategies for overcoming adversity and driving forward revolutionary transformation with optimism. If you've been wondering whose voice welcomes you to the show, it's nice to officially meet you. I'm Cee Cee Huffman, Producer of Revolutionary Optimism, and I will be your host for this episode as we talk about the launch of Unify USA with Dr. Paul Zeitz and Leigh Blake. Lee Blake is a seasoned social impact filmmaker and creative strategist renowned for her innovative approach to addressing global health and social justice issues. As the co-founder and strategist of Unify USA, Leigh leverages her extensive experience to foster unity and drive systemic change across the nation. Lee's unwavering commitment to social justice and her innovative approach to activism has solidified her reputation as a transformative leader in the nonprofit sector. Her work continues to inspire and affect positive change, embodying the principles of unity and collective action. Leigh, thanks for joining Dr. Paul and I today.
Leigh - 00:01:39:
Oh, thank you. Nice to be here.
Cee Cee - 00:01:42:
Yeah, so before we get into everything about Unify USA and how exciting it is to finally have launched, I want our audience to get to know you a little bit. They know Dr. Paul. They've heard me quite a bit. But Leigh, tell us a little bit about you.
Leigh - 00:01:57:
Well, I'm obviously British originally. I came here really to escape the British class system. Which I hated and still do. Um, and because I come from working class Britain, from council flats, you call projects, you know, I was never going to go and, you know, I was never going to get a job at the BBC or something. Hello. It's Leigh Blake from the BBC. I just, that was never going to happen. So as soon as I arrived in New York, and I arrived here actually to follow punk rock. I realized it was the place for me. In fact, my return ticket flew away in the, in JFK Airport.
Cee Cee - 00:02:41:
Very poetic.
Leigh - 00:02:42:
The parking lot.
Cee Cee - 00:02:44:
And God said, you're not getting on the plane.
Leigh - 00:02:47:
Yes, that's right. And I knew at that point, I was picked up by my friend David Byrne from Talking Heads. And he said to me, let it fly away. And so I let it fly away. And I realized at that time that this was the place for me, that this attitude was more in line with me. And the, the, the insanity of New York at that time, I mean, was crazy. So I sort of spent a few years going back and forth between London and New York. And then I created an organization called the Red Hot Organization, co-created, because I became an AIDS activist when my friends were dying of AIDS. And I created the first ever. Cultural organization around the AIDS pandemic called the Red Hot Organization. And we made many, many, many records and TV shows. And that sort of began my journey. It wasn't that I was ever an expert on anything. I'm really only an expert in the arts, to be honest. I'm like the living personification of that Nike phrase, just do it. And I'm Gemini. So, you know, I don't wait for people to give me permission to do things ever. I just do it. And so when my friends were dying, And I was furious. I just thought, well... I know all these stars, you know, these music cats. And, um, I'm just going to go get them to do something. And because I produced the thing in London where we really didn't have the, or England, where we didn't have the rampant homophobia that existed in America in the beginning of the epidemic here. It was much, much easier to do. And from that moment, everything I did was more successful in the U.S.. So I thought, well. This is the time for me to come here. So I've been here. About 35 years, I'm fully American. And it's my, someone said to me the other day, Do you ever go home? Someone in the elevator in my building. Do you ever go home? I'm like, I am home. So that's a little bit about me. I've known Paul for years and years and years, 25 years. And We're very similar and yet we're very different. I'm the kind of, you know, as you heard, I'm the sort of, we're both impulsive, but we get things done. In different ways that come together in perfect synchronicity. He is really a great thinker, is the kind of Aristotle of the crew. I'm the sort of hate the middlemen, just do it. Can't be in the bureaucracy, haven't got any interest in that framework, let's just get on with it. And so the two things do come together really well. And we're both able to tell each other when we think something really sucks and it's okay. So, um.
Cee Cee - 00:05:55:
Everybody needs something like that. And there's somebody like that in their life.
Leigh - 00:05:59:
Yeah, true. He's like my human ChatGPT, you know.
Paul - 00:06:07:
Yes, we're very much yin and yang in a very beautiful way.
Leigh - 00:06:11:
We are.
Paul - 00:06:12:
I want to share the story of when we first met because it's very vivid in my memory. I had been living in Africa and had faced the AIDS crisis there where people, adults 15 to 44 were dropping like flies. And I realized that the response of the government of Zambia and all the international donors at that time, I was working for USAID, the U.S. Agency for International Development. And I left Africa in a bit of an impulse because I realized that the solutions were not in what I was doing. And I kind of recognized the lie that I was living. Because, I thought I was in the place where change could happen and a real response could happen. And it was actually not true. When I faced that, I was like, I can't be in that anymore. So we left the United States. I came back to Washington. And at that time, I met up with activists from others that were working on the AIDS issue, like the domestic AIDS advocacy groups. Leigh didn't really share, but she was a major force in the domestic AIDS response in the 1990s when this Red Hot Project, Red Hot + Blue, Red Hot TV shows, they had the first ever TV show on HIV/AIDS on national TV. And they raised money and that ended up funding, some of the pioneering groups like Gay Men's Health Crisis and amfAR, I think, and others.
Leigh - 00:07:46:
amfAR, ACT UP.
Paul - 00:07:47:
ACT UP, yes. So it was an extraordinary contribution that she made to one of the most powerful social justice movements ever in the United States. So fast forward to 2021, I had come back and people were like, well, you're a doctor and you have just been in Africa and you can speak as a voice of the voiceless and you can help bring actual voices from Africa into the Washington political scenery and to educate them about what was going on. So we ended up working with Hill staffers and orgs were ready to roll. And we were calling for billions of dollars to end global AIDS. And so we did a press conference and Bono was an early supporter. And there was a statement read about, read by him, read for him at the event. And it got picked up by the AP, so the Associated Press. So there were news that came out of this event. It was on March 29th, 2001. And within minutes, Leigh had seen the press release because she was so committed to AIDS. But she didn't. She wasn't in the D.C. scene. And she contacted the Hill. She found out how to get to me. And within a short time, we were meeting. And then she became the largest and biggest first funder of the Global AIDS Alliance. With some of the proceeds that she had from the Red Hot products. And that was instrumental because we were playing a role at that time to hold President Bush accountable and to put pressure on him to launch a big, bold initiative. So two years later, in January of 2003, he launched PEPFAR, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, and he launched the Global Fund with U.S. support, the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB, and malaria. And in the last 21 years. And we built an interpartisan movement. And that movement raised over $110 billion from the United States government and billions more from other governments around the world. And at least 50 million lives were saved from AIDS, TB, and malaria, and orphans were cared for. And so Leigh and I came together. She's like the celebrity engager, the popular communicating to the public, the creative strategist, like she said, and culturally aware, hyper aware. She knows every trend and every, she knows how to explore and investigate, interrogate every opportunity for leveraging the culture at any particular time. And that created a magic. And our movement really benefited from our collaboration all the way through the Obama years. And this initiative led to presidential commitments that would not have happened otherwise, and congressional investments. So I'm so honored to be working with Leigh again on Unify USA because we also have failed forward. We have had a lot of mistakes. Not mistakes. We have these big, bold ideas. We launched a campaign called Neopeace. We launched other Endgame. We had big ideas out there. And we learned and grew and stretched ourselves. And they didn't always work out the way we had wanted. So anyway, that's where we're at in our long-term. Our long collaboration and friendship.
Leigh - 00:11:16:
Well, you know, the best way to learn is to fail. And, you know, and the only thing I really think I keep other than the accent of my British kind of heritage is I'm not allowed to brag. So other people have to sort of say what I've done because I'm not going to do it. I did, however, work with my dear friend and lovely, lovely human, Alicia Keys, for many, many years with Keep a Child Alive. And we literally saved millions of lives in our actions for access to antiretroviral drugs. And all through this period of time, by the way, Paul was always talking about reconstructing the Constitution. And, you know, it seemed like madness to people, but not to me. I thought it was just... Honestly, I thought it was just the greatest. I kept saying, this is so good. This is so great. You know, you have to do it. You know, and... I think we British... Always thought that this... Fixation on this 238-year-old document. By wealthy, rich, white, mostly British men which seemed to be conceived pretty much based on their business interests. It was very unfair to women and to people of color, obviously, and much more. I think the British always thought that was madness. You know, madness. And as you see in the Parliament back there, you know, they argue out everything in front of the public all of the time. In Britain now, they're trying to end the House of Lords and replace it with the House of the People, which is a fantastic, fantastic idea and has got great support from a lot of people. So when Paul again said to me, you know, that he thought about it and that we were in this constitutional crisis and that this is the time. I was like 100% on board because if it's not a really big idea, I don't really, I can't really. You know, I live for the people. I'm really only interested in people's rights, ordinary people's rights. And so I felt that instead of the same old way of rebelling against the two-party political system that has put us in this mess. The best way would be to just reinvent the whole rule book and make it modern. That's really why I decided to get on board with him. And so it's been a really, we're only a month old. I mean, it's been the most fascinating thing. You can really feel the pain of people wondering what happened on both sides. And so we're really in this place where what we're trying to do, you know, is for everybody, not for one side or the other, is for everybody.
Cee Cee - 00:14:51:
Yeah, and I think... Certainly people are beginning to understand what these problems are and how, like you said, insane it is to rely so strictly on a document that is so old that doesn't, really speak to what people want or need in this time. And it makes me think about, you know, sometimes if you have a house that's really old, you can't build back that same house. Sometimes the best plan is to tear it down and start over. And that is, I think a lot of people are realizing that that's the position that might be the best for the future of America. And you talked about, you know, you are American, you've been here 35 years. I would come to agree. You've been here longer than I have and I was born here. So-
Leigh - 00:16:06:
Yeah.
Cee Cee - 00:16:06:
You are, and I think that particularly, it's powerful that you feel that way and feel this hope for this country and for the people of this country. Particularly when a lot of people who are from here are born here, don't share that same hope they do feel. Despairing and like, nothing will ever change. And a lot are attempting to leave. And I think it says something that you're here and you and Dr. Paul are working together to try to build something for everybody that will all be to their benefit, even though it's hard. But this is fortunately not your first interpartisan movement. I want to talk a little bit now about Unify USA, which officially launched in January, which is so exciting. Dr. Paul and I have been talking about Unify USA for the last couple of years. So it's great to see that the time has finally come. You talked a little bit about kind of your personal feelings, but what is the ultimate mission behind Unify USA? What is it that you want to accomplish? And Dr. Paul, we'll start with you.
Paul - 00:16:50:
Okay, yeah, just to clarify, we did launch officially on February 17th, just one month ago on Presidents' Day, this iteration of Unify USA. We launched with a campaign called Hit Refresh on the Constitution. And so our mission right now is to build an interpartisan citizens movement that brings people together in citizens' assemblies, which is a form of deliberative democracy that selects people randomly from the public. So you will get interpartisan participation from the MAGA movement to the centrists, to the moderates, to the left, and all will participate. And they, when people are brought together, they will deliberate and come up with recommendations for refreshing the Constitution. And I think the way that I'm seeing it, we're using the words reconstruction and refreshing of the Constitution, very importantly, that we're not trying to throw away the whole thing. We're not trying to tear it down. We're trying to say that there's some really important aspects of it that have been effective and sustained our country as a country for these last 238 years. And we want to hold on to that. And we want to get rid of the stuff that's holding us back. So it's like if you were rebuilding a house in your house metaphor, it's like keep the outer frame, but gut the inside and rebuild it with a modern kitchen and a modern bathroom and nice bedrooms and all that. So that's kind of how I see it in the house metaphor. And so we've launched a movement and we're building a movement with partners and who are ready to seize this moment of opportunity. We're in an unprecedented situation in the country where our democracy is overtly collapsing in front of our eyes. And we're seeing, news headlines every day that are shocking. I call it the dead cat syndrome. Like the MAGA government is like throwing dead cats on the dining room table while we're eating dinner. And we go, ah, ah. And like it puts you into like, you know, if a dead cat was thrown on your dinner table, you would go, ah.
Cee Cee - 00:19:02:
I'd be a little surprised.
Paul - 00:19:03:
And you'd get paralyzed. And it happens like 10 or 15 times a day of all this stuff that's going on.
Cee Cee - 00:19:09:
At a certain point too, though, you do start to think, well, where's the next one? Because, that's, I think how a lot of people feel.
Paul - 00:19:15:
Yeah. The next dead cat's coming. Yeah.
Cee Cee - 00:19:17:
Yeah. It's on the way.
Paul - 00:19:18:
It's coming today. Yeah, for sure. And so it's a tactic of the government to do that and to get us into a state of fear, to put us in, paralyze us and make us like hunker back and withdraw. And I think what Leigh and I are hoping is that Unify USA is a space of hope, and possibility. And we are creating a citizens movement to surge forward a new pathway, to refresh the Constitution and create a new government. And we actually really think of this as the Second American Revolution, the peaceful one though. We're invoking the First Amendment, which says that we have a right to peacefully assemble. And this is peacefully done. And so we're starting to get, we have liftoff. We have thousands of citizens who are now part of the movement. We have advisors that are popping into our leadership circle. And we're building new coalitional partners. And we're starting to get some real momentum. And I'm so excited that we've come to this moment. Leigh, I know you have another perspective on all this, so please share away.
Leigh - 00:20:35:
Well, I, you know, I mean, it's. People have lost their sense that they have any power at all. And in fact, they're the ones with the power. But, you know, the elites have made us feel like we have no power and that's strategic. And as it relates to government, we really don't. We've got these two-party elections. We're supposed to trundle along and put down our vote. And then, frankly, they can do whatever they want after that. It's been very disappointing in the last few cycles, very disappointing. And I think the people themselves are struggling, really struggling, not only with day-to-day life and surviving. People your age, people my son's age, you know, it's really, really hard to survive anymore. People are being told that they should earn $19 an hour for extremely strenuous work, you know, and you can't pay your rent. You know, and... I think that they, you know, this notion that we're, without a voice, I always say, have your say, Unify USA. Ooh.
Cee Cee - 00:21:51:
I love.
Paul - 00:21:53:
Was that a shower moment this morning?
Leigh - 00:21:56:
Yes. I, you know, I really feel that. You know, we're really here to help ordinary people. We live to do that, no matter what. And, um, This is the time. To get things straight so that ordinary people don't have to suffer like this and that the system can be broken to be much more equitable. You know, not in the slash and burn way that we're seeing in the government now, but rather listening. I think the thing about, you know, citizens' assemblies. You know, is the listening and the coming together of people from all sides. And, you know, when you're with someone and you see their humanity and you feel their humanity, it's very hard to have these preconceived ideas about who they are and what they are. And walk away with that so that you have a certain kind of superiority over people. And yet we don't want that. We really want people to come together and, you know, see their shared humanity and be together with each other, coming to common sense solutions. It's just a beautiful thing. It's happening in so many other countries. Why not us? And frankly, if it's not us, meaning us, the people, it will be them. And we don't want that. So, you know, citizens' assemblies are a really, really fantastic way. Of getting to these. Intractable issues. Without special interests and without corporate engagement. And without, you know, old-fashioned ideas. Um. By old fashioned people. And, you know, sort of moving into the 21st century and beyond instead of the 18th century, which is essentially what the war book. Is from, where the rule book is from. So, you know, it's a fascinating time. And... We're ready. To take it on. And it's going to be beautiful. You know, I always think that America, to me, is this sort of place of adventure. It takes you really a lot of work to be here legally. You know, you have to really compete. In a world where an American can't do your job, you have to sort of make that or, you know, do what you can do. And you get here and it's just this incredible movie. It's just such an incredible movie. And everything feels possible. And suddenly all that has disappeared. You know, we're all sort of, you know, under the thumb of the oligarchy. And we don't want that. We really want the people to thrive. We want young people to thrive. We've got grandchildren. We've got mixed race grandchildren, as a matter of fact. And, you know, we want them to thrive. We want them to have a future where things feel like everything is possible for them. And that means rewriting this dastardly document.
Paul - 00:25:27:
Yeah, we have to remind people that it was written by candlelight and quill, and they were getting around with horse and buggies. They had no empiric evidence that the structures and ideas that they were creating, like the Electoral College, was good or would work. And we are 250 years later, roughly, and we have a wealth of data and information that proves that citizens' assemblies, where people are an effective part of democratic governance, way beyond the evidence that they had, what they created could work. So there, you know, there's a lot of folks that are out there talking about incremental solutions, like let's wait till the next election or let's try an amendment process. Like amending the Constitution. We, you know, the last major amendment to the Constitution was getting the eligible voter age up to 18. That happened pretty quickly. But prior to that, it was 1920 when women got the right to vote. And in the last, that's over 100 years ago. And in the last several decades, we're seeing an erosion of rights. Rights are being taken away for the first time ever in U.S. history. So we're really keen on moving this agenda forward right now, right here, right now. And we have an action plan that we're that's unfolding as we speak to mobilize local citizens' assemblies during 2025. Then have regional assemblies or thematic assemblies and culminating in a national citizens assembly in June of next year. And then having an agreement on a refreshed Constitution, as an outcome of that event and that process. And then get it ratified either through popular vote or through some kind of omnibus amendment that could be and the people could be mobilizing to encourage their state legislatures to approve it as fast as possible. We think this is possible and we're getting some momentum now in this early phase of liftoff.
Cee Cee - 00:27:38:
Yeah, I'm definitely encouraged when I listen to you talk, but, and I have the opportunity to talk to both of you and I'm very privileged in that, but I definitely know and think as a younger person, me, a lot of my friends, like it feels like this. Terrible infighting and... Distrust of the people who are supposed to represent us has been going on my entire life. And even though I have the opportunity to talk with you, which most people don't, I still have a hard time believing that things can be any different than what they are. So how do you envision mobilizing, um, people and particularly people who are of different political beliefs? How can that work?
Paul - 00:28:29:
Yeah, so I'll start and then pass it to Leigh. I mean, I think we're building an interpartisan movement. So the founding circle, the advisors, we have Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and all coming together. That's essential. We are creating pathways of engagement through the website and through social media. We are having our first town hall on April 1st, open virtual town hall. And at that time, we're going to release something called the Living Room Conversation Guide. It's a short four-page self-facilitated guide that anyone, all your friends, all your family, all your neighbors can use this guide and start having a conversation about. What do you think about the Constitution? What do you think you would want to see refreshed in it? Because I think people have been brought up, including me, my whole life and saying, this thing is sacrosanct and this thing cannot be changed. And I remember as a very young boy walking around Philadelphia and walking into the church where George and Martha Washington prayed and other of our founders. And I remember touching the pews where they sat and going, oh, I had this realization. Oh, they're just people. They're not like movies. They were just people going to church on a Sunday. And we're just regular people. And that's what we're inviting people to realize that we're the people of our time in this moment that have the opportunity to step up. We have an opportunity. We have the right, according to the Constitution, both in Amendment 1, the First Amendment, and then in the Ninth Amendment, we have the right to defend our democracy and block it from tyranny. And we have a responsibility. That's the thing. People have a citizen's responsibility to take action now and to wake up. And we're trying to ignite and awaken a revolutionary spirit. And we're committed to doing it peacefully. And that's the thing. It is scary, though. I think people have a lot of fear that if we open it up now, it could get worse. You know, the people, the oligarchs that control the government could try to take over the process and hijack it for their own interests. And that's what Leigh alluded to earlier, which she said, if we don't do this interpartisan citizens movement, the oligarchs are doing it and they will rewrite the they are rewriting the Constitution by their actions or inactions. And they have a plan to actually rewrite it. So if we don't act now, then we could be stuck in a governing framework for 40 years that is oppressive and authoritarian. And I don't think that's right. And I don't think that that is the good way forward. So it's like we're living in this auspicious moment of peril and possibility. And I really invite your friends and our listeners to like. Jump in, learn, grow, explore, and help us figure this out because we don't have all the answers. We know we need a large widespread movement to happen relatively fast.
Leigh - 00:31:42:
Well, I say, you know, to Americans, get into the adventure. You know, it's such a thrilling time. With this, with the complexities and the disparities and all of that, like it can be fixed by the people. And Americans are amazing people. There are a slice of hurt people that are louder. And nasty and want to find some kind of superiority to survive for themselves. But mostly Americans get on board. They get on board. They, you know, it's a population of people that understand, you know, the genius of the American idea, as Bono would call it. And we think that those people and young people will be thrilled to be able to have their say. And that's really what we're talking about. Finally, for the first time, creating a Constitution written by we the people, really. And, you know, and creating a place that we really want to live in. Our digital future needs to be addressed as well. The preamble to the Constitution and then the old constitution and the specifics around taxing. The people has to do with general well-being. General well-being.
Cee Cee - 00:33:26:
That feels ironic to me now.
Leigh - 00:33:29:
They must have been comedians. They must have been comedians. I think they were like Saturday Night Live characters. You know, the general well-being of the people. Is a major part of the old constitution. And I don't see the general well-being of the people being taken on board by our government or any of our governments since I've been here. The general well-being is critical. Healthcare. A place to live. Fixing homelessness. Creating ways in which The general well-being of the people is the ultimate quest of this new constitution. And that's the point of it all.
Cee Cee - 00:34:20:
So I want to shift just a little bit to talk a little bit more specifically about citizens' assemblies. We've kind of touched on it each time, but I want to talk a little bit more about it. We've talked about the House of Lords too across the pond. So it seems like this is something that's becoming possible everywhere. I remember when Paul and I first talked about it for an episode, I had never heard of it. I was like, what is this? That sounds... Crazy, too good to be true. But learning more about it and understanding that this is something that it's not. Just people in America are pushing for, but people other places are pushing for and have implemented other places. And it actually does successfully work. I think that's a really key point to drive home. And I kind of lost my train of thought because I really want to emphasize that as somebody who was maybe, I mean, just unaware and maybe a little bit resistant to something that felt so different and seems so different. How do you address people who hear that and think, whoa, that doesn't seem right? And how can you help the general public to understand that the goals of citizens' assemblies and how attainable they are?
Paul - 00:35:37:
Yeah, I think it's important to start off by reminding folks that electoral democracy, which is how we make decisions right now, meaning we, the citizens, offer our vote to elect officials and we confer responsibility on them to look out for our interests. And we've had several guests, Terry Bouricius, a recovering politician, and Alex Guerrero, a prominent Princeton expert, who have explained how electoral systems of democracy are not actually working in the United States and globally. And so they have taught us on the show and elsewhere to go back to the original form of democracy back in Athens, Greece, when democracy was being formed. Those early democracy efforts were based on selection or sortition of the public to come into the legislative bodies to make the laws and make the policies over the land. Those experiments lasted for hundreds of years back then. And then it was like a seesaw where the oligarchs would come in and take over and crush the people's control of the government. And then the people resurrected their authority through citizens' assemblies. Our founders knew about this and they decided that they didn't trust the people and they decided to create an electoral form of democracy because they wanted to protect their economic interests and their land rights. Most of them were landowners and slave owners, and they wanted to protect their economic interests. And they actually didn't trust the voice of the people to be able to make the best decisions about it. So one legacy that came into our system of government is jury duty. And juries are selected by random selection from the public. So most people are familiar with that mechanism. And that is a part of this deliberative democracy. Now, as you said, in the last 20 years, there's been a massive citizens assembly wave around the world. All over Canada, there's many citizens' assemblies that have happened, are happening right now. In Europe, there's been a rapid expansion of citizens' assemblies. And now there's even permanent citizens' assemblies in the city of Paris and in eastern Belgium, where they've created a relationship where the citizens assembly meets and it can create recommendations for like a referendum or for legislative action. And that's what we're trying to see happen here in the United States as well, we'd like to see a fourth branch of government be created in a refreshed Constitution so that citizens always have a voice. We'd like to see a national referendum process where something can be brought to the American public from the federal government. That doesn't exist here. It happens in many countries around the world. So, I mean, and then the question is, like, citizens' assemblies in the United States, we've had about a dozen of them in the last 10 or 15 years. They've been all focused at the local or state level. There's some very successful models. One of my favorites was done by a colleague of ours, Katie Fahey, who worked in Michigan and built a statewide campaign there to bring sortition into a gerrymandering commission. So instead of politicians deciding how congressional districts should be restructured, which is hyper-politicized and hyper-polarizing and a big battleground on electoral politics right now. She created and mobilized the movement in Michigan and got it approved. And it's now being implemented where there's a sortition based commission. The people get picked and they then decide the districts in the state of Michigan.
Cee Cee - 00:39:32:
We could certainly use that here in North Carolina.
Paul - 00:39:35:
We could use that across the country. We'd like to see that across the country. And many countries like Ireland, Scotland, the Chile have used citizens' assemblies, Iceland as well, to reconstruct their constitutions. So it's not like a new idea to use this approach to look at your governing framework of how your country runs. And so I think that's why it's high time to bring this approach here to the United States.
Leigh - 00:40:08:
I mean, the world is moving forward. We've suddenly gone backward. No, this is America. We don't do that.
Cee Cee - 00:40:17:
And there's the answer. I think that's beautiful. I was going to say, I hope that's true. I agree. Leigh, that's what I'll say. I agree.
Leigh - 00:40:26:
Thank you so much.
Cee Cee - 00:40:29:
Yeah. Is there anything, as we wrap up here at the end, is there anything else that either of you would like to say before we go or anything that you think I should have asked you that I didn't?
Paul - 00:40:38:
Yeah, I'm curious. I want to ask you a question. I think one of the things that we're really working on is how do we invite people into this experiment, this adventure, as Leigh says, for the next 15 months? To say, hey, okay, I have skepticism, I have doubts, but I'm going to pause that and I'm going to flip my switch and pursue the hope option. And I'm going to dig in and activate myself for this. And then let's see where we get to. We'll have a debrief in July of 2026 after these deadlines or these goal lines that we're setting are complete. That's the question I'm exploring with young people is like, how can you consider this as a possibility that you want to play with and join, get on the court, get in the game for 15 months and see what happens.
Leigh - 00:41:34:
Well, one thing that's interesting about young people and Gen Z in particular is that they're all horrified at the results of the election and what's going on. And I want to say to them, you're supposed to get involved before the election, not after. You're supposed to get involved and make your voice heard. You're supposed to have your say. And, you know, I also want to bring up, because there's been lots of social media comments about who funds us, who are we owned by? Are we like some mad religious right organization?
Cee Cee - 00:42:14:
Right. That's valid.
Leigh - 00:42:15:
He's a Jew and I'm a Boo. He's a Jew and I'm a Buddhist. So.
Paul - 00:42:22:
We're Jews together.
Leigh - 00:42:25:
But this does not have to do with religion at all. It just has to do with respect for our neighbors. I'd much rather hear what my neighbor, I'd much rather take the viewpoint of my neighbors than I would someone who has nothing to do with my life and has somehow sort of gotten themselves in these dreadful positions in government where nothing seems to change, nothing. And we're not funded by anyone, by left or right or anyone. We're funded at the moment by ourselves. And we are that unbelievably driven and dedicated to trying to change things for ordinary people. Just who are like sort of the earth. And fantastic humans and just need some help. We believe in things like, you know, guaranteed income for people at the federal poverty rate. You know, we believe in really cutting out all these layers and layers and layers of bureaucracy as well. I've always done that in my work. I don't think I've ever had a grant from anyone or had a, you know, some kind of politician engaged in my efforts. I mean, I just go do it, get it done, just make a change, just go do it. Just do it.
Paul - 00:44:01:
Yeah, let's do it.
Cee Cee - 00:44:02:
All the way back around. Yeah, I think that's rightly. I think, Dr. Paul, to your question, it definitely helps knowing and understanding who's behind these organizations. So having conversations like this, I think there's a lot of skepticism of what anybody's motivations are these days, particularly politically, as to whether or not something's the right thing to get involved in. Because there's just a lot of lies, generally, for lack of a better way to put it. There's just a lot of lies. And because of that, people are not sure who it is that they can trust and believe. And then I also think, to Lee's other point, reminding people that it's not too late, because I think a lot of us have just sort of succumbed to this. Even though I produce your podcast, I feel myself being despairing most of the time more than I am hopeful, which is ironic because I'm with the hopeful guy. But also just my general personality. So my first election that I ever voted in was 2016 when Trump was elected. There's a video of me actually like in such disbelief. I'm laughing. I'm crying. I like I cannot believe that this has happened. So that was the start of my experience. With voting with being engaged in politics in any way, shape or form. And when you start like that, it kind of feels like everything that was going to make a difference happened before I even got here, you know? So I think reminding people that, especially now, even now, it's not too late to do something that could make a difference for. Yourself and your community.
Paul - 00:45:47:
Yeah.
Leigh - 00:45:47:
Yeah. I mean, get it together, cats. We need to get it together.
Paul - 00:45:54:
Yeah, I think what you're saying is really helpful, Cee Cee. I do think this is the time where we have to rise. And that is one of my fears is that if we don't mobilize now, now, now, as I say, then this could become entrenched for decades. And I would hate for that to be the way that you have to live your adult life. And all Americans. And so as Leigh said, we're here for the common good. And we're here for trying to make a difference right here and right now. And we also want to make it clear that we're working across the political spectrum. So the MAGA people, we're with you. We've talked to you. We connect with you. And as they become disillusioned with the MAGA oligarchs, we see them as being really part of this broad interpartisan movement.
Cee Cee - 00:46:47:
Yeah, and an important part too. We need everybody.
Paul - 00:46:50:
Exactly.
Leigh - 00:46:52:
Everybody. I mean, the U.S. is famous. The movements. Famous for changing things in enormous ways. And it was always the people. It was always young people, actually, truth be told. And every single gain that we have has to do with the people just rising up, doing their thing, having their say, using their voice. I love the hippie movement myself. I thought it was extraordinary. But the more you look at all the movements that have taken place here in America, it's far... Outweighs anything that's happened anywhere else in the change that's resulted. So this is just the 21st century version of that.
Cee Cee - 00:47:47:
Awesome. Thank you, Leigh. And thank you, Dr. Paul. It has been such an honor to get to host this episode and be on this episode of Revolutionary Optimism. If you want to learn more listeners about any of the things we talked about today, we'll make sure that they're linked below. But thank you so much for joining me and having me both at the same time.
Paul - 00:48:05:
Thank you.
Leigh - 00:48:06:
Oh, we loved it. You're fabulous.
Cee Cee - 00:48:15:
Well, everyone, you know what time it is. At the end of every episode, Dr. Paul does his diagnosis, prognosis of the guest to talk about why they definitely have a severe case of Revolutionary Optimism. Now, I need to start this off by saying I am not a doctor, okay? But I could web in D to say that obviously Dr. Paul and Leigh Blake are revolutionary optimists talking about how they got together, working on the AIDS crisis and how they worked on the AIDS crisis individually and how it brought them together to really build these movements. They talked about that they have optimism in doing. They believe that whatever they see is wrong, that they can change and they don't wait. To try to change it. They don't incrementally change it. They dare to fail and they have, and they're open about that. But at the same time, every action that they've made has driven change. And despite any sort of setbacks they may have faced, they keep working and they keep working together. We talked about how, a lot of these things that seem like huge ideas to us and huge changes are actually not that. Big of an idea. They approach it as a possibility rather than something that seems and feels insurmountable, which is not going to lie, typically what I do. And they approach challenges as opportunities, which I think is something we hear a lot. But it's fun to see that Dr. Paul and Leigh have actually done that. They see these challenges and this is an opportunity right now as Americans we're facing, at least in my 28 years of life. This is the biggest political challenge that I've seen or lived through or been a part of. Fortunately, we have two people who are leading it. This is not their first interpartisan movement. Two people who are driving it. Have experience that can help be a guide to people like me and people like you to actually make these changes. So That's what I learned today. And I think the way that we move forward is. To listen to the leaders, to the people who have come before us, who have been able to make change and to trust that. If we do it together. We can't fail. So, of course, WebMD has told me that Dr. Paul and Leigh are definitely revolutionary optimists. And they've certainly... Made me feel more optimistic. Are you ready to be part of the revolution? To learn more about Revolutionary Optimism, please visit revolutionaryoptimism.com. To get to know Dr. Zeitz, please visit drpaulzeitz.org. And to explore building movements, please visit unifymovements.org. If you like this show, be sure to follow on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode. Revolutionary Optimism, transforming the world one episode at a time.