Entrepreneur Intel

In this episode, we dive deep into the realities of entrepreneurship with Ryan Hogan. From navigating early failures to hitting product-market fit, Ryan shares the tough lessons learned along the way. Whether discussing the early false starts, how to pivot effectively, or scaling businesses like Hunt A Killer, this episode offers invaluable insights for entrepreneurs. The message is clear: never give up, because the difference between success and failure is perseverance.

Takeaways:
  • Perseverance is Key: Entrepreneurship is a journey full of failures and micro wins. The only way to succeed is to keep pushing forward, even when the path is unclear.
  • The Power of Pivoting: Understanding when to pivot is crucial—whether it's adjusting marketing or product strategies, flexibility is necessary to meet market demands.
  • Validate Ideas Quickly: You can validate a business idea over a weekend by setting up a basic test, such as selling a product to gauge market interest.
  • Adapting to Changes: Businesses must constantly evolve. From Facebook's changing algorithms to navigating AI and a rapidly shifting economy, staying agile is essential.
  • The Shift Towards Recruiting as a Service (RAS): The concept of Recruiting as a Service (RAS) is introduced as a subscription-based model, providing a modern solution to outdated recruitment practices.
Quote of the Show:
  • “The only difference between success and failure is, are you going to persevere? Are you going to continue, or are you going to give up?” - Ryan Hogan
Links:
  • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanehogan/
  • Website: https://talentharbor.com/
  • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talentharbor 

Ways to Tune In:

Creators & Guests

Host
Wes Mathews
KC
Producer
Kyle Conover

What is Entrepreneur Intel?

Welcome to Entrepreneur Intel, a podcast where we discuss the most important strategies for success from amazing entrepreneurs. Host Wes Mathews sits down with business owners to learn about how they got started running their own business, what helped them succeed and the biggest lessons they learned along the way.

Be sure to catch new episodes every Thursday morning, and to make sure you never miss out on any insights, don’t forget to subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, You Tube or wherever you get your podcasts.

This show is sponsored by Stealth Consulting, your Fractional CMO. Stealth provides the roadmap and accountability to reach your business and marketing goals. Learn more at https://stealthconsulting.com/

EI - Ryan Hogan
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Intro: [00:00:00] This is the unfiltered truth about entrepreneurship. Raw, no VS, no sugarcoating. Welcome to Entrepreneur Intel. I'm your host, Wes Matthews. Each episode, we'll learn from experienced founders and uncover the top 5 percent learnings that led to their success in all things personal, family, and business.

This show is sponsored by Stealth Consulting, delivering clear marketing strategies, ROI, and no surprises.

Wes: I'm super excited for today's guest, a serial founder with a passion for building stronger teams and a proven track record of innovation. He's co founder of Hunt A Killer, which in 2020 was named Inc. Magazine's fastest growing CPG company. Super excited to dive into that. Also a podcast host and surface warfare officer for the U S Navy Reserve.

Also co founder and CEO of Talent Harbor. Welcome, welcome Ryan Hogan.

Ryan: Awesome. Thanks so much for having me, Wes. Appreciate it.

Wes: Oh man, it's been a long [00:01:00] time coming. I know we talked a while ago to get to this very day. So super excited to kind of unpack some of the intro here and other stuff. But, uh, Talent Harbor is a new company, but you've been an entrepreneur for almost two decades.

I got to ask you, I asked everybody that comes on the podcast, like what's one of the most important lessons you've learned on this 20 year journey?

Ryan: Oh gosh. I think it's really about like never giving up, right? Like when you think about entrepreneurship, like there's going to be failures every step of the way. And when, I think about my journey, you know, there was a lot of false starts in the early days. There was a lot of times where I had an idea and I was like, well, I don't know how to do that idea.

So I would just stop. And then I would have other brilliant ideas, but like, I can never get them across the goal line. And I think these like, kind of micro wins of like, for me, it's all about putting myself in the corner. And so like, and the only way through, or the only way out is through, and so like starting [00:02:00] something or like, Launching a company or launching a website or launching a product.

And then naturally, like you have to take the next step. but it's been like these points of validation along the way that have really helped me grow. But the, the issue with entrepreneurship is like, the only difference between success and failure is, is are you going to persevere? Like, are you going to continue?

Are you not going to give up? Um, and that's probably the biggest lesson, especially if I could go back in the early days, I would say, Hey dude, start, start earlier and start failing earlier because you're going to have to go through these things in order to learn.

Wes: Uh, it's great. I agree with you. And almost times I get like head trash and I think, well, it's kind of cliche, right, like fail, fail fast and do all these things, but you know, as you're talking, there's this image I have in my mind, I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it's like a guy with a pick and he's in a cave and he's like mining for a diamond and he's like really working.

Right. And he gives up like an inch away from the next hit. That would get him that big diamond. And I always think about that and, you know, [00:03:00] coming, you know, you and I both are in a unique situation because we both kind of just started up a new company. So you, have to pivot, you have to like change, you have to keep evolving.

Um, and that's scary, right? Cause you know, especially in today's day and age, you know, 2024 AI, all these things are coming, the market's changing rapidly, but being able to understand that, you have to go through it, you know, you have to go through as an entrepreneur. There's no other way to do it.

Nobody's going to do it for you.

Ryan: I, you just brought up something like, I think about that all the time too. There's a great book out there. Um, I think it's called out winning the devil and, and it's the same author that, that writes about that, the whole, um, like three feet from gold or whatever that is, and I've been caught in this trap so many times of like, When to give up, you know, when, when I think about, um, a pre product market fit, I always think about the lean startup.

And so it's, it's about like pivot or persevere. So pivot, pivot the marketing, which is the easiest pivot, the product, which is the hardest, one of the last things you want to do, um, until you kind of find it and [00:04:00] then go forth. But the hardest thing to do is like balancing the, am I going in the right direction?

Like, is that, is that diamond, is that like pot of gold, like three feet away? Or do I need to pivot slightly? And, um, and those are some of like the hardest lessons. Cause in the early days, I spent probably two additional years that I didn't need to chasing something, a market that didn't exist.

Wes: Yeah. So talk about that. I mean, there's a lot to unpack with your intro, but cofounder of Huntakiller, like what, number one, what is that? And then I want to go way back before that on how did you go down this journey? So what, what is it? And then what, where did you start?

Ryan: Yeah, so Hunt a Killer, uh, was and still is today an immersive murder mystery experience. Um, at the core, it's a, it's a game. Um, but my co founder, Derek, and I, we always had this vision of how do we, how do we distort reality? How do we, how do we create these, um, these environments in which people actually think that they are participants or a character [00:05:00] in the stories that we've created.

And this goes back, maybe we'll talk about this a little bit, but this goes back to another company him and I had started called Run For Your Lives, um, which was the first ever zombie infested 5k obstacle course race. So when you think about like Tough Mudder and Warrior Dash and Spartan Race, like we were actually a big three, but nobody paid attention to us, uh, unfortunately because it was this crazy zombie event.

Um, And that failed, uh, that failed hardcore. Um, but it also led to the next. Iteration or the next thing that Derek and I embarked on and that was Hunt a Killer. And so Hunt a Killer started the same way that Run for Your Lives started, which was on a campground. So with Run for Your Lives, we could put 10, people through a obstacle race on any given weekend.

And so we did the same thing. We rented a campground and we brought all these people in for this immersive murder mystery experience. We transformed 200 acres into a living crime scene. We put dead bodies all over the place. [00:06:00] We put suspects, uh, police, like you name it, they were there. You had to interrogate suspects.

There was this grand finale. It was amazing. Um, but we couldn't get, we couldn't get scale with it. We, we had the demand, but we didn't know how to actually scale the experience. And so what we did was we said, okay, well, there's got to be a better kind of business model out there where we can take this product, iterate it just a hair and find wider distribution.

And that's when we got into Subscription Box. So probably about a week after our first event, this was October of 2016, we pivoted into Subscription Box and we started sending crime scene photos, police reports, um, I don't know, trinkets, uh, evidence from the crime scene, all of these different things, and we would send it out on a monthly basis.

So think like, Loot Crate or Birchbox, except it's an immersive story, and it's delivered episodically over six months. Um, and it, it went gangbuster. Like, I, I talked to Derek both then and, and we talk about this all the time of like, [00:07:00] To hit product market fit like that twice in, in one lifetime, like, like I felt incredibly fortunate, like it was lightning in a bottle.

And I was like, I never thought after Run For Your Lives that we would find that and capture that again. And we did, uh, and we were off to the races, which was great. We went from zero to about 50 million bucks, I think at the peak, about 55 million bucks, um, over six years. Um, we parlayed that into, um, retail distribution.

So we started looking at the direct consumer space, the subscription space. We started seeing a lot of. Issues, a lot of over reliance on paid advertising channels, things like that. Um, we saw kind of companies kind of coming back to earth. Um, and so we kind of had an inclination that we need to do something different.

And so we pivoted the company again, or we started diversifying. We got into retail distribution and we did that just in time because after the pandemic direct to consumer for us, that business channel started to contract heavily, um, but we had retail there to pick it back up. So

that was a, that was a long

Wes: no, that's great. I mean, I think it's really interesting because you. You said it like, [00:08:00] Hey, the first business, like nobody knew who we were, the big two Spartan, you know, Tough Mudder, but that kind of helped propel you to build a 55 million business within six years. So like, it sounds to me like that was a pretty awesome failure to help, to teach and educate you guys.

And then, and then as along the way, which I think is really amazing, like You're pivoting still at 55 million. As you're growing that business, you still have to change a pivot. So talent Harbor today, talking about pivoting AI, there's a lot of stuff changing in the economy. Like I think of back, I think about my first company from Oh nine to 21. Those days were kind of easy. I feel now, like. It's crazy. Like these, these devices here, my kids have, and it's, they don't talk on the phone, it's a Snapchat machine and it's a Tik TOK machine, you know, behaviors are changing and you being in the game space, like, what do you, what's your crystal ball?

So like, how, you know, what are some of the challenges coming down the pipeline

Ryan: Yeah, I think there's, um, I think there's a lot of challenges there. I mean, there's also a lot of [00:09:00] opportunities, so it's not, it's not all doom and gloom. You know, I think, I think, um, direct to consumer has a long way to go. Um, and you know, I think the way that a lot of people. Think about the direct consumer industry right now is paid advertising.

And so like, where can I put a dollar in and get two bucks out? And the reality is those things don't exist. And so when you look at like 2010 to 2020, you've got the biggest corporations in the world. That are not on Facebook and dropping money, um, into that paid advertising channel, hunt a killer was spending at its peak.

We were spending 150, 000 a day into the Facebook advertising channel. And so to think about like how much money we were spending, um, Each day. And the fact that bigger companies weren't there, like we all should have been scratching our heads saying like, Hey, maybe, maybe something. Is fishy here. Like there's a reason that the big players are, are not entering this space.

Um, [00:10:00] but I also think there's huge opportunity. There's huge opportunity to create efficiencies within the business. There's tremendous opportunity to create amazing products. Like that's what it comes down to. Um, and that's something that we focused on. Critically at Hunt a Killer was, it was all about the experience.

It was all about, um, what is your niche? Like, why does, why does the business exist and really focusing, um, on those things? So, you know, I, if you've got a great product, you've got the right price point. You know, I, I think, I think there's tremendous opportunity. There's efficiencies with AI. There's different things that you can do to where, you know, you don't have to carry the overhead that you had to carry five, 10 years ago.

Um, but we still have a lot of headwinds as far as. The economy and, uh, getting people's buying patterns back to where they were.

Wes: as, as a founder entrepreneur with that idea? Like how, how did you eventually get comfortable with spending 150, 000 a day on Facebook, or you have this idea, like how, how do you test that to the market? To [00:11:00] understand that you're, that you're onto something like, how, how do you, how did you manage that scale?

Ryan: So with Hunt a Killer or excuse me, with Warware, like we put together business plans and, and we started ordering all this inventory and we just had this idea of like, if you build it, they will come. And that was the, that was the thing that I think we actually stuck with, uh, way too long. The reality is over a weekend, you can validate an idea or a concept, especially in consumer.

What I'm learning very quickly, um, in the, in the, uh, B2B space is like it takes a little bit longer to understand. If you found product market fit and, and like where the needs and where the pain points are, but in consumer, you can spend a weekend, put a website together and start selling stuff on Monday with just the notion of an idea.

And like, will you refund those people? Because you don't even have the product yet. Yes. Like I'm not saying to go take money and do a devious things, but you can validate, yeah, you can validate very quickly where there's product market fit. And that's what we did. So when we launched the subscription [00:12:00] box, like a day after that first event, um, we were already selling the subscription box to the emails or to the database that we had for the people that came to the event to test out the theory.

People were buying it. So we're like, bingo, let's create this product. Derek and, and, uh, Adam, uh, amazing. First hire and incredible creative went into the, the shop and like started putting together these experiences. But, and then it's just over time, right? So like, now we validate it, now we put it together and now we're just tracking everything.

So, you know, we didn't go from zero to 150,000 in a year. Like we went from zero to a thousand bucks over a week and then a thousand to 3000, then 3000 to 5,000. Um, and we just kept incrementally increasing. But we were watching all the metrics as well. So we understood what our return was on that. We understood lifetime value and we, we ensured that, um, you know, these were smart moves.

Wes: Could you do it again? I mean, based on the timeframe and today with the, with the current state of social media, the ad platforms, [00:13:00] is it that, I hate to say, is it that easy? Cause it's not easy, but what's changed from, from then until now? With, with testing that theory.

Ryan: Yeah, the, the algorithms. It's so funny when you say, uh, could you do it again today? Cause like, I think, I think the, I think the, uh, probably the action that, that answers that question is like, I'm, I'm in talent acquisition today. Like if it, if it were that easy, I would probably, I would get back in and, and there's like ebbs and there's flows.

So when I think about run for your lives, we were, we were, On Facebook. And this was back in the day where like you saw whether you were following a company or you were following your best friend, you saw everybody's posts in your feed and then that got destroyed and that company got destroyed. And then all these other companies, um, there was a lot of crowd, crowdfunding, crowdsourcing, and there was ways to like break into that.

And there's still successful Kickstarter and Indiegogo campaigns out there, but like it was easier to do, you know, the 2010 [00:14:00] to 2013, and then when we entered the market. We had this most amazing paid advertising channel the world had ever seen. So Facebook screwed us on the first half, um, with, uh, you know, starting to limit the amount of people that could see company posts that company went under, but then they developed the world's best advertising platform.

And so we went back to them. We were like, Oh, this is going to be great. They they'll, they'll never pull the rug out. Um, and we started spending a lot of money. The reality is today, and I've put together a few hypothesis, like if I were going to do this today, I would do it alongside of some sort of influencer.

They would have a healthy, um, um, a healthy stake in the company to ensure that they were committed to the success. And I really think that that's how you got to think. Um, I could go in for direction super for hours, but we can, we don't have to.

Wes: Cause you bring up a good point, right? So something changed on Facebook and then you re engage. You didn't think that the rug would get pulled out from under you. Did you see that coming? And [00:15:00] was that always living in the back of your mind? Cause I think it's important. As an entrepreneur, right? If you're building your business and systems that rely on third party and things thinking like, Hey, it's business as usual, I'm invincible.

Yeah, I came, I come from digital marketing, so almost 20 years of my life was dependent on Google and algorithms and things, and I used to live in fear. And people would say, what keeps you up at night? I would say, uh, if Google changes anything, like it could wipe my business out tomorrow. You know,

Ryan: Yeah, it's, um, it's a good, it's a great point. And like, I should have been, I think I'm, I'm too much of an optimist almost to like a place of negativity. Like, I'm just like, Oh, it's all going to work. We're going to figure it out. And, um, I was in a Vistage group out here in Seattle and we would always talk about, you know, Having too many eggs in one basket.

And we would talk about that from a customer standpoint. So like, you know, the, the red flags are, if you've got, what is it? Like more than 40 or more than 50 percent of your entire revenue coming [00:16:00] from one customer. Like that's not a healthy place to be. That number probably varies across different industries, but the, like the rule of thumb there is like, if you have too much coming from one source, that's a bad thing.

And for some reason, I never translated that to Facebook. I was like, no, we have. Tens of thousands at one point, hundreds of thousands of customers. Like, but I didn't put that like Facebook wasn't our client. So what I wasn't thinking about is like 90 percent of our revenue is generated from a single advertising channel.

And like one, I should have done a better job thinking about that. And, uh, two, like, no, I was, I was never worried. And, and it was ultimately Apple. Um, which. It's a whole nother thing. Cause Apple came out with the privacy stuff. It destroyed Facebook's algorithms. Um, and like, it was all on behalf of privacy.

And then you see Apple's ad revenues, like start to shoot up like the next few months, you're like, guys, you just screwed a whole bunch of consumer businesses. Um, [00:17:00] On something that had really nothing to do with privacy. Just had to do with you guys wanted more ad revenue.

Wes: yeah. It's crazy to think about cause yeah, it's like you're so dependent on Facebook, but then Apple made the change, which ultimately led to that impact. Um, so I can cut, you know, so what led you as an entrepreneur to, to sell that business? Did you completely exit that company? Was it a private, like who, who ended up buying that company and why did you end up selling

Ryan: Yeah, there's a, there's a long, long story in there. That the first is, um, I deployed. So I've been in the Navy now for 22 years. Uh, for the first 15 years, I was active duty start off as a Naval air crewman transition to a surface warfare officer. And then eventually, um, transitioned to the reserves after Hunt a Killer started taking off.

And I was like, this is great. Um, I don't need to do this full time anymore. And so I've been in the reserves now for the last seven years. We had just raised about 12 million in, in equity. It was December, 2021. And literally two weeks later, I [00:18:00] get a tap on the shoulder from the Navy. And they're like, Hey, you're deploying.

I was like, what do you, what do you mean I'm deploying? I'm, I'm a reservist. It's one weekend a month, two weeks a year. This makes no sense to me. Um, but no, they were serious. And, and so, uh, I had to deploy. So I, I left the country for 10 months. I embarked on the, uh, USNS Trenton. We went all over Europe and Africa.

It was an incredible experience. Um, but that was tough conversations with the investors. Um, and it was tough. Like very quickly getting things into place. Um, you know, uh, how valuable iOS is and it's an incredible system. And very quickly, like I had to figure out how to put people in the right seats to kind of deal with all of the things that I would be too far away to deal with.

Um, so when I got back, we had a retail business that was just on fire. It was, it was. It was doing, it was exceeding all expectations. Um, we had just picked up Walmart, which was great. And Target, like we had a few products, but Target went from like two skews to six skews in the matter of, [00:19:00] I think, 18 months.

And it's like, it's all the same game. And so to put like, you know, six hunt a killer boxes on shelves, like we were ecstatic by that. Um, but the pay cycles or the payment cycles of dealing with retail, And then dealing with the contraction of the other business, like we just knew we needed to find a home for it.

And so, um, I got back from deployment, I think March of 2022, 2022, that, that. What are we in right now? 24th? No, it must have been 23. March of 23, we put the business up for sale last July. Um, we spent about 6 7 months putting it through the process, and then we ultimately sold it in January. I am free and clear at this point.

Um, Derek's, Derek's hanging in there. He's doing some amazing things for WhatDoYouMeme, and, and, uh, they're carrying on the Hunt2Killer legacy, and, uh, uh, The products have never been better. So really excited to see what, uh, what that brand continues to do.

Wes: That's awesome. So you're free and clear that you decide I'm going to start a company [00:20:00] called Talon Harbor.

Ryan: Yeah. I had, it was really weird. I had this mentor come to me and, um, Oh, there's so many stories in there, but I had this mentor come to me and he was like, Pick, pick your favorite line item, um, off of your Hunt a Killer, uh, P& L. And for me, it was people. It was the investment in people. It was, um, uh, it was the growth in people.

Um, it was supporting people. Like it was everything people related. And there was this one line on, on there that was, uh, recruiting. And we spent probably like 700, 000 bucks on recruiting over that six years. I was like, there's got to be a better way for this. So I reached out to the most amazing recruiter we ever used at Hunt2Killer.

And I was like, Hey, do you want to join forces? Um, because I'm about to sell this company. I'm not going to be able to sit still. I got to get into something else. Um, and B2B sounds like a fun, a fun place to play. And, um, she obliged, took her a little bit, but she decided to come along. Um, and so [00:21:00] we're both, both now working on Talent Harbor, but I just see so much opportunity.

When you think about talent acquisition or recruiting. It's got a bad name. I told my uncle, I was like, he was like, Hey, what are you going to do next? I was like, Oh, I'm going to go do talent acquisition. He's like, you're gonna be a recruiter. Um, it's like, nobody likes recruiters. And, and what I want to do is change that because I think that recruiters generally are so damn expensive that like people are left thinking, why did I pay so much money for that?

And I actually agree. And so that's why we're innovating in the actual business model of recruiting. And I think it's, um, I think it's going to be an exciting, exciting time. I

Wes: interesting. Cause like I, I have experience with recruiters and our last company, you know, we had a web developer that didn't work out for the company left on great terms. This wasn't a great fit. And I'll never forget, I had a recruiting company that was to backfill the role that they were going to fill for this gentleman.

And they're like, we have a phenomenal [00:22:00] candidate for you. It was the same guy that left the company. I can't even make this stuff up. And I think their terms were 25 percent paid within 9 days of their salary. And like their schlick was, yeah, if it doesn't work out, we'll replace it. And I'm like I, I can't, like, this is, this is crazy as an entrepreneur.

Like I get it. People's important, but so how do you see, like, I love that. I love that idea of like, turn that, you know, recruit, like communicate that differently. So like, how do you see, like you said, a term we were talking before the podcast that. I thought was really catchy. Like, how do you, how do you change that sort of just vibe on recruiting?

Like, how are you going to do that?

Ryan: think, um, weirdly, I think it comes down to like branding and communication. Like when I go to a recruiter's website, they all look the same. They all look like a law firm's website and it's like stodgy and like, Oh, um, so I think branding has a lot to do with this and then [00:23:00] also positioning. Um, Like, we're going to focus on one thing and one thing only, and we're calling it RAS, um, which is Recruiting as a Service.

So it's a play on SAS, um, but basically what it's trying to convey immediately is that this is a subscription. Um, and essentially what we're doing is we found this big open white space or, or blue ocean, if you're familiar with that book, of, you're going to go out to market to hire somebody, generally, you go to ZipRecruiter, LinkedIn, Indeed, something like that.

You post it, you pay a couple hundred bucks, and then you get hundreds, if not thousands of resumes. And the problem with that is like, very quickly, you're inundated. If you don't have your own internal processes streamlined, then like, you don't even know how to review, um, how to vet. So what we would do at Hunt a Killer is get frustrated and then we would just go tap a recruiter.

So we went from spending 100 to 200 bucks and then dropping a 60, 000 check for that 25 percent fee you just, uh, you just mentioned. And there's this wide open space right now for, why can't people with all [00:24:00] the technologies and all the advancements that we've made in talent acquisition, why Why are we still following a business model from like 25 years ago?

And so what we're doing is for a monthly subscription, essentially we are guaranteeing a certain amount of qualified and vetted candidates. So we use our same hiring for culture, hiring for experience and expertise. There are three interviews that happen. We're tapping people on the shoulder. We're doing the same exact thing that we do for our executive search, except we're doing it for this thing called RAS.

Um, and we're doing it on a, um, on a monthly subscription. So I don't know, I'm excited about it.

Wes: No, it's not. Yeah, no, it sounds cool. Like, how do you, what's the, and I'm just curious, like more as an entrepreneur, like what's the sales process that you get your time back? Cause interviewing people, spending, like, I don't know if people realize like that's a ton of time and you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the one you're looking for.

And I don't know if a lot of entrepreneurs don't put a lot of weight on that. Like, oh, it's. You know, it's no big deal. We'll just hire somebody [00:25:00] like there's a lot to it. Right.

Ryan: yes. Yeah. There, there's like two main things that, that are really hard with recruiting. The first is sourcing. So where are you going to find these qualified? And so there's passive and then there's active. So there are passive candidates, um, out there. And those are people that already have jobs that aren't looking for jobs.

And then there's active. And those are the people that are actively searching. And most companies, and actually most recruiters, only go after the active candidates. The reality is it's the passive ones that are already rock stars at their current jobs are the ones that you actually want. So the first part of it is sourcing.

The second part of it is what you just said. It's vetting and qualifying. And so I think as a gosh, like as business leaders, for some reason, we've been over indexing in expertise. And those things are needed. Right? Like, you can't bring somebody through that was, you know, a manufacturer, worker, and you can't [00:26:00] expect them to be a great, I don't know, uh, mechanical engineer or something like that.

Like, experience and expertise matters. But you know, as well as I do through the people analyzer that half the battle is finding the right person, but a lot of recruiters like skip this step and a lot of businesses, unfortunately, don't know how to vet for do their, do their values align with ours. So what we try and do is we both predict future performance because that's important.

That's experience and expertise. And, but we also want to predict future behaviors because I would say that the 80 percent of the people that failed at Hunt a Killer, it's because we didn't do a good job vetting for who they were as a person and were they going to fit inside of the organization? So anyhow, this, the sales pitch there is like, we've let, we vet for performance.

We vet for behavior. Um, and then we tap candidates on the shoulder. So like we are going after those passive candidates who already are happy with [00:27:00] jobs and we're convincing them that it would be better to be with you.

Wes: my first company as the visionary leader, entrepreneur of that company, I had to, I had to come to a realization and tell myself I cannot be part of the hiring process. Because I would literally want to hire everybody I interviewed because I saw opportunity and just kind of, you know, like everybody shows up with their a game, everybody's going to say, Oh, hell yeah, I can do that.

And I did this. And you're like, you get excited, right? As a visionary, I had to like get out of the way, you know, what, you know, how do you like being in this space? I mean, you have a lot of experience with your company. So you've been in the trenches to now you're on the other side. Like skill over cult, like attitude.

Like, what do you look for? Like, Hey, they, this, these two things must be a, you know, like a, a yes. Before you even pursue, is there any tick tips or nuggets there?

Ryan: Yeah, it, it, it goes back to exactly what you just said. Like it's, it's attitude. Like they've got to be curious. [00:28:00] Um, they've got to want to grow. Um, they've got to be coachable. Like these are some of the things that we look for, and this can be the first 15 minutes of a screening phone call. When you look at someone's resume.

You'll know whether they've held similar positions. And we can talk about that. Like when you're vetting for positions, the other thing that that was a common mistake that we made at Hunt a Killer is like, we're like, Oh, we're going to be a billion dollar company. So we need a VP that was at a billion dollar company that we, we go out and get that person, pay them.

A lot of money each year and realize that like that person does not know how to operate inside of a startup. So like, yes, there are nuances to looking at a resume and understanding, like, do they actually have the experience and expertise to be able to, uh, become a high performer in the role or the seat that you have.

Um, but that aside. So once you have qualified that candidate, like you can have a very quick conversation with them to understand, like. [00:29:00] What do you value as a human being? Um, and also starting to, I can share these docs with you later, but like, we also have a full kind of template that we send out to clients for, for free.

Like, you know, we want people to hire well, whether it's with us or not with us, but we've got a set of questions that, that we ask them that are all behavioral based questions to really start to figure out if there's going to be alignment.

Wes: No, that's really great. Maybe we'll save that for the end. Cause I'm sure a lot of the listeners would love to get some feedback. I think this is a challenging thing across any entrepreneurial company. Um, there, there, this is a multifaceted thing because I think that you now have to fish for a pool of people that are open, right, that are actively working for a company that could be open.

So then you have a company, right? That signs up for the RAS service, but sometimes companies don't really show well, or their websites are terrible. Like, how do you work with a business to say, man, you, you have to be kind of sexy or appealing because [00:30:00] what you're working with is just terrible. Like, how do you, how do you navigate that?

Ryan: Yeah, we, uh, we help make them sexy. Um, but you're, you're absolutely right. So like the biggest difference between passive clients and, or passive clients, uh, passive candidates and active candidates, um, is that your, your passive candidates, like if they're not looking, then they need to be sold. And that's something that I don't know, I used to take this for granted and I don't know if you did, but I was like, come work at Hunt2Killer.

It's the best place to work. Like I shouldn't have to convince you not, not in like a, you know, Like an asshole type of way, but just like a Like, of course you're going to want to join us cause we're doing amazing things. And this is the happiest place on earth. Um, but that's not the reality when you go after passive candidates.

Like if people aren't actively looking, then you have to sell. And so like to a certain degree, we make, we make companies look sexy. So, um, we put together an actual marketing package for every single role. And you know, it's got, it's got your logo. It's got things about you. It's got the [00:31:00] benefits. It's got all the, great stuff in it.

We haven't had a client yet that like, wasn't actually sexy, but it's a great question. We're like,

Wes: I have a few I can send over to you.

I mean, we get that. We get a lot of, you know, I have a lot of people that are like, man, we're so busy. Like I just need to get talent. And then I look at like two things. It's like, well, you have like a one star review on, you know, whatever that website's called, I forget now, uh,

Ryan: Glassdoor. Everybody.

Wes: Which is kind of pointless now. And I think people see through that, but it's like. What would you recommend though? Cause there are those companies that, you know, do the same thing, expect a different result. Like what, what could, what would you recommend to a business that before they meet you or they could start to do on their own to make themselves be a little bit more sexy and appealing to the marketplace,

Ryan: Hmm. I mean,

Wes: like winning, like winning awards for like best place to work.

Is that important? Stuff like that.

Ryan: is. I think that here's the problem. [00:32:00] This is why your question is so tricky. It's like, a lot of these things take time, right? Like, Like if, if someone's looking to hire a year from now, then like, you know, start, start getting, getting everybody together to, to make sure that they're all posting good reviews in different places and, and start applying to all the best places to work that the problem is like those things actually take time.

The, the best thing I believe you can do as an organization, I know this is going to sound based upon like, you know, you're a nice experience, um, have a system in place. The sexiest companies understand where they're going. They've got a strategy for how they're going to get there. Everybody understands what they do inside of the organization.

And like, the reality is, is like, we can polish the turd externally. If on the inside, it's a, not a well willed machine. Cause all businesses are falling apart and just figuring it out, but just having some sort of framework in place, [00:33:00] um, and clear communication.

Wes: You bring up a good point. And you know, I had a guy that we're talking about like EOS or some type of entrepreneurial framework, like getting, getting your shit together. We were talking about the VTO, the vision traction organizer about a company, right? It's where a visionary entrepreneur can put his thoughts, talk about culture, target market, three year plan, like literally the whole plan for the organization and a guy I knew worked for a, like a local water damage company.

And he was familiar with EOS and he was looking to leave the company. And he was interviewing around town and he came back and he like saw me, he was like ear to ear. And he's like, Hey, I gotta talk to you. I go, what's up? He goes, I just interviewed at a new company. You're not going to believe what happened.

I said, what's that? He goes, the CEO, as soon as I sat down, whipped out the VTO and it was laminated and he started at the top.

Ryan: Hell yes.

Wes: and I go, and, and, Maybe I knew that but like I was watching somebody explain it to me [00:34:00] What I thought was really powerful about that is because they were in hyper growth mode They they were like hey We want to have we want to go from five trucks on the road to a hundred within three years Like who their icp their ideal customer profile blah blah blah So for him, like he was able then to buy into the culture and see the vision of the company to say I want to deal with growth.

I want to be part of a growing company Now if that bto would have said we only want five trucks on the road. We only want 50 accounts We want to do the same thing every day then he would have been like eh So I to me like that's a that's a really cool kind of thing that I love what you said is, you know, get your house in order internally.

And I think that's a tool that companies can use to get their stuff together before they like bring more people into the chaos.

Ryan: Yes, a hundred percent. Like, if you don't know where you're going, like, how do you know who you need? And if you don't know where you're going, like, how do you know what you need? Like, it just, it, it all comes back to that same thing. So like, [00:35:00] you know, we can, we at Talon Harbor can put together some amazing marketing materials and make you look, you know, incredible if the first time they like sit down and like, And, and the hiring manager like doesn't even really understand like the role or have things like crystal clear, or just comes across as unprofessional.

Like that's going to be the issue. So it's really about, is the house in order? Um, we can fix all the other stuff, uh, when we go to market.

Wes: Now, do you recommend anything right? Like, are you, do you implement EOS? Are you into any of that kind of stuff and building all your companies as you move forward?

Ryan: Yeah. I, so I'm, I'm a huge, like believer in EOS. Um, we self implemented in Hunt a Killer. Then we eventually went out and, uh, we had a, an expert implementer, Margaret Dixon out of Boulder, Colorado. Incredible human being, whipped us right up in the shape. It was, it was great. Um, we, we have EOS, uh, in Talent Harbor already.

We operate it. We, we [00:36:00] love it. Um, So yeah, I mean, that would be the system. I am not an implementer. I should be clear about that. Uh, but I do have a podcast called Confessions of an EOS Implementer because I have so much respect for that industry and, and for what they do. So, yeah,

Wes: So why, why a podcast? Like, why, why did you go down that path for your podcast? Like that, that's very specific. I'm, I'm curious around why. That's so specific.

Ryan: I, there's a, there's a couple of things there. Um, it is specific and like the other thing, the other thing it doesn't do for us and, and we're, we've been realizing this is like a lot of recruiting shops are, are. Industry specific and EOS is not industry specific. EOS is anybody with a company between 10 and 250 employees.

I forget what the whole spiel is, but like there's a spiel there. Um, And like, we're quickly realizing that like we're taking clients from every industry, my belief is like, I don't actually know [00:37:00] other than a marketing standpoint. I don't, I don't really understand like why recruiting has to be industry specific.

Like we can find anybody. If you tell me what you're looking for, like we have the systems and the processes and the people to go out and find that perfect candidate that you're looking for. Um, so it probably, probably makes it a little easier in marketing, but for me, it's a couple of things. The first is.

When we were vetting expert implementers back in 2019, 2020, um, I had conversations with probably about five. And the thing that struck me the most is like. Y'all have great stories. Like these are not people right out of B school or like somebody who's like, Oh, I just bought this franchise. It was this or McDonald's.

And I decided to buy an EOS franchise. Um, these are real leaders with real experiences, real executives, real entrepreneurs, um, that are mostly at a time in their life where they're just like, I want to give back. And I, and I love this thing. And I wanted to share those stories with the world. And so [00:38:00] I, I think the content actually makes for an incredible.

Podcasts because of the stories. Um, and then it helps me kind of connect in with the community and like understand who's who. And, um, it like, it allows me to be a part of it without going and buying a franchise and, and actually having to drink the Kool Aid.

Wes: Yeah, no, that's really cool. I totally agree with you. I mean, yeah, people don't trip upon EOS. Something happened and really moved them in their life and everybody has a really unique story. Uh, it's really cool. Definitely like one of the best communities I've ever been a part of. Gino is amazing. Like anytime I hear Gino talk and he's in my backyard here in Michigan, like it was started here out of EO, Entrepreneur Organization, but that, but that's really cool.

So I got to ask you, I normally don't ask, but like I normally pay, you know, you pay 25 percent of somebody's salary. Like that's the traditional, like what's the pricing model for a subscription service for recruit? I'm just curious.

Ryan: Yeah, so, um, that's, that's a great question. We kind of have three different tiers. I'll just talk about [00:39:00] the one tier because the other tiers are generally for, um, uh, cleared folks. Like, we're finding that government contracting is actually, is actually like a, a pretty, a pretty big niche for us because they always need, um, uh, bodies and seats.

Um, Uh, but when you look at a gen, a typical recruiter, and we did the same thing, and still, if we take Wyckoff searches, like, we'll do integrator searches, and we'll do core function leader searches, and, like, we will do that on the standard fees, that's anywhere from, like, 60 to 120, 000. Um, For the RAS, it's 5, 000 a month.

And for 5, 000 a month, you get three to five qualified candidates. There is no success fee. The other thing we're finding is like, um, we've got a professional service provider, um, that needs a constant stream of accountants and for 5, 000 a month, he gets three to five qualified candidates each month. And like he fills his own ATS, uh, applicant tracking system, his own database.

Up with the clients that we gave him. [00:40:00] So like each month he's got an additional three to five that go into his database. And like when he needs to grow, he's got people he can tap on the shoulder callback or things like that. So, um, generally what we see is like, it's 5, 000 a month. We can get something closed anywhere between two and three months.

So it's 000. Our, our clients love us. So like they'll flip it off for a few months and they'll flip it back on when they've got to hire again. Um, and, uh, When you look at that against like a 60, 000 success fee, it's like 10, 15, 000 spread over three months or 60, 000 lump sum. It just, it makes more sense.

Wes: No, it's great, man. Um, I think it's a cool concept. I love the, the RAS that's a, that's a sexy term. Hopefully you coined that. Well, Ryan, it has been super fun hanging out, learned a ton. Uh, one last thing, if, if anybody listening wants to reach out to you, connect with you on multiple fronts, what's the best, easiest way for them to contact you?

Ryan: It probably LinkedIn. I'm I'm all over LinkedIn. So, uh, LinkedIn is just, it was like [00:41:00] at Ryan E Hogan. Um, and then email Ryan at talentharbor. com, but, um, love connecting with entrepreneurs. We don't have to talk about talent. We could talk about anything. Um, Hit me up. Happy to help. And, uh, let's have a conversation.

Wes: Cool, man. Ryan, thanks so much.