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From LeverNews.com — Lever Time is the flagship podcast from the investigative news outlet The Lever. Hosted by award-winning journalist, Oscar-nominated writer, and Bernie Sanders' 2020 speechwriter David Sirota, Lever Time features exclusive reporting from The Lever’s newsroom, high-profile guest interviews, and expert analysis from the sharpest minds in media and politics.
00:12:16:03 - 00:12:46:21
David Sirota
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. Hey there. And welcome to Leisure Time, the flagship podcast from The Lever, an independent investigative news outlet. I'm your host, David Sirota. On today's show, we have a big interview with U.S. Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut. I asked the senator some pointed questions about this new Republican sculpted debt deal which will increase poverty and hunger across the country.
00:12:46:23 - 00:13:20:12
David Sirota
I asked him whether it was exactly what President Biden actually wanted and whether the whole conflict was a pre-scripted and predetermined piece of theater. I also talked to Senator Murphy about his new legislation that aims to prevent some of the most harmful aspects of social media from endangering America's kids. And I pressed him on how many more insanely extreme rulings it's going to take for Democrats to finally get serious about trying to expand the Supreme Court for our paid subscribers.
00:13:20:13 - 00:13:43:05
David Sirota
We're also dropping exclusive bonus episodes into our leaver premium podcast feed. Last week, we shared my interview with Adolph Reed about his new book, No Politics But Class Politics. Professor Reid is a brilliant political theorist and writer, and it was a fascinating conversation about what he calls race reductionism. So you can check that out in the Leaver premium podcast feed.
00:13:43:09 - 00:14:06:11
David Sirota
If you want to access our premium content, head over to Lever News.com and click the subscribe button in the top right to become a supporting subscriber. That'll give you access to the clever Premium Podcast Feed exclusive of live events and all of the in-depth reporting and investigative journalism that we do here at The Lever. The only way independent media grows and thrives is because of passionate supporters and by word of mouth.
00:14:06:13 - 00:14:18:19
David Sirota
So we need all the help we can get to combat the inane bullshit that is corporate media. So go subscribe. It directly funds the work that we do. As always, I'm here today with Lever Times producer. Producer Frank. Hey, Frank. What's up? Sad day, David.
00:14:18:19 - 00:14:31:06
Frank Cappello
Sad week, really. Succession is over, so that's like half of my purpose. Half of my purpose, half of what I look forward to in my life. I don't know what I'm going to do anymore after this.
00:14:31:06 - 00:15:01:04
David Sirota
Well, if succession had to end, I would have chosen it to end in a week that the Nuggets are moving into the NBA Finals. And I truly enjoyed last night watching the Boston Celtics get eviscerated. Now, for those of you who don't know, I grew up in Philadelphia, and if you grow up in Philadelphia, you are you are taught at a very young age to absolutely hate the Boston Celtics like you can't like the Boston Celtics.
00:15:01:04 - 00:15:02:13
David Sirota
It's like it's like a no.
00:15:02:13 - 00:15:03:23
Frank Cappello
Is that one of the big rivalries?
00:15:03:23 - 00:15:22:15
David Sirota
Well, I think Boston would probably say it's not a rivalry for them because the Sixers were never very good or they were only periodically good but particularly decided rivalry. It's a one sided rivalry, right, with where the Philadelphia fans think that it's a rivalry. But the the Boston fans are like, yeah, you're a joke. Your team has been a joke.
00:15:22:17 - 00:15:45:21
David Sirota
But point is. Watching the Celtics lose was absolutely euphoric and but my brain has now shifted from from momentarily liking the Miami Heat to the minute the Heat won the series. Now I hate the Miami Heat because they're up against the Denver Nuggets now, some have accused me of being just jumping on the bandwagon for the Denver Nuggets.
00:15:45:21 - 00:16:14:09
David Sirota
But but the Denver Nuggets are officially my favorite Western Conference team, the Sixers. I grew up as a huge Sixers fan there. My obviously my favorite Eastern Conference team. And I have lived in Denver almost as many years as I lived in Philadelphia. So I'm I'm justifying my nuggets. Love as not an abandonment of the Philadelphia 70 Sixers, but as a as a Western Conference Express and of my love for the underdog team.
00:16:14:13 - 00:16:24:23
David Sirota
So fingers crossed on the Nuggets versus the Heat. Miami Great job on defeating the Celtics. Now I hate you and you must lose. That's that's where I come down. See, I.
00:16:24:23 - 00:16:28:14
Frank Cappello
Don't have any of that sports stuff as a solace. So I'm still just sad.
00:16:28:15 - 00:16:46:18
David Sirota
So you're you're as sad as Kendall Roy who walked out in the ultimate I mean, he looked so sad at the end of succession. It was it was great, actually. Dan Levitas, one of my favorite podcasters, sports guy, politics guy. I've been on his podcast. He just tweeted and he's a he's from Miami. He's a miami Heat fan.
00:16:46:20 - 00:17:17:12
David Sirota
He tweeted a picture, a video of the Kendall Roy walking out, looking completely despondent when the Celtics lost. He said, you know, Boston fans walking out of the garden right now. And all it was was Kendall Roy walking despondent Lee out. I really I really enjoyed that. And yes, I lament that succession succession is over. And I should mention, we talked about succession a lot in the latest episode of Movies versus Capitalism, The which is one of the podcasts in the Livers Podcast Network.
00:17:17:12 - 00:17:26:00
David Sirota
You can find it at NBC Pod dot com. I was the guest on that episode of it. It was a really good discussion and thanks for having me on that.
00:17:26:00 - 00:17:33:22
Frank Cappello
Frank Oh yeah, it was a great conversation. Just listen back to it today. I was like, Damn, we were all really we all had a lot of really good points to make the day after this show ended.
00:17:33:23 - 00:18:05:08
David Sirota
Yeah. Yes, it was a it's a bummer that it's over, but on we go. Now, before we get to our interview today with Senator Chris Murphy, I just want to get a few things off my chest regarding this debt ceiling theater that we've been subjected to over the last week, two weeks, three weeks. I'm sure everybody, if you're not living under a rock or in a cave, you've probably heard about this thing called the debt ceiling that if it's not raised, the U.S. government could default on its debts, which truly would be bad for the economy.
00:18:05:08 - 00:18:39:01
David Sirota
I mean, that is that is the one true thing in this whole discourse, is that, yes, defaulting on our debts would be bad. So that is actually true. But it really the rest of it really does feel like theater and and there's two things that I feel like particularly rancid forms of bullshit. The first thing that we've seen and heard a lot of is that, you know, the Democrats didn't really want to end up in this place where they're making a deal with Republicans to freeze federal spending.
00:18:39:02 - 00:19:02:02
David Sirota
Of course, they're also increasing spending for the Pentagon. So freeze federal spending on on things that regular people really need, like, you know, food stamps and the like. The Democrats didn't really want to be here. Like, you know, the Republicans are holding them hostage. And and that this the Democrats really put up a great fight is this is the is the thing that's been thrown out there.
00:19:02:04 - 00:19:27:22
David Sirota
The first thing I keep coming back to on that it just just bothers me is that Democrats could have raised the debt ceiling in the lame duck session of Congress when they still controlled both houses of Congress, and they could have done it through reconciliation, a process that would have required only 50 Senate votes. In fact, Bernie Sanders called for that at the time.
00:19:28:00 - 00:19:56:19
David Sirota
Janet Yellen at the time said that would be a great idea. But when push came to shove, the Senate Democratic whip Dick Durbin, from the blue state of Illinois, the number two guy in the US Senate, he came right out and said he just didn't feel like making time to do it. He literally said this is a direct quote, quote, That would not be done this year by reconciliation.
00:19:56:21 - 00:20:40:01
David Sirota
It takes too much time. We have three weeks and there is too much else on the agenda. So you have the number two Senate Democrat screaming the quiet part out loud, just completely debunking the horseshit that this party tried in a real way to stop the debt ceiling situation that ended up unfolding, a situation in which the Republicans took over the House and then used it as a way to try to grind the working class into the dust through budget cuts on programs that the working class relies on.
00:20:40:06 - 00:20:58:12
David Sirota
So he just came out and admitted it. I mean, producer Frank, I don't know how how, but like I know that we live in a goldfish culture that forgets its entire world every 15 minutes. But the number two Senate Democrat came out and admitted what was going on. I mean, isn't that the right way to look at this?
00:20:58:14 - 00:21:32:00
Frank Cappello
Yeah, I think so. I think it is a it's like a plane admission from him. Like like you're saying, you know, I think we don't have the time is, you know double speak for it's not our priority also we don't we don't really care if the Republicans hold us holds the economy hostage next year because, you know, maybe maybe for some of us, like do want to make this deal, maybe some of us do want to cut some spending and I think all of these I think all of these assholes, they really love the idea of bipartisanship.
00:21:32:03 - 00:21:38:23
Frank Cappello
You know, they really for whatever reason and I think it's something in their their rotted brain feels like, oh, well, you know.
00:21:38:23 - 00:21:40:12
David Sirota
Even if you know, even if we have to make.
00:21:40:12 - 00:21:58:06
Frank Cappello
Some concessions next year, we will have you know, we will have reached across the aisle to do so. And we'll have that win to be able to go back to our constituents, too, and say, hey, look, you know, we disagree with the Republicans, but we made this deal with them. So, you know, I'm I'm not an ideologue. I work I work with all of the corrupt shills.
00:21:58:07 - 00:22:22:22
David Sirota
Right. They they value this idea of etiquette more than they seem to value their stated values. Now, we talked to Senator Chris Murphy specifically about that and whether this was a preordained outcome, a predetermined outcome a long time ago. So stick around for that. But one other thing I want to mention. Let's take a look at the Republicans.
00:22:23:00 - 00:22:47:06
David Sirota
You've heard a lot from House Speaker Kevin McCarthy berating government spending. Now, it is true this this bill is a big, big victory for the Republicans. And I should add, any body you see on television, whether it's a Democratic lawmaker or a Democratic pundit, pretending this is a victory, that this proves that Joe Biden is a master negotiator.
00:22:47:08 - 00:23:09:04
David Sirota
If you believe that, okay, then what's your admit? What if what you're believing is that Joe Biden did want this outcome? But the way we understand Republican priorities and Democratic parties, this is clearly a bill full of Republican priorities. It freezes federal spending as more Americans can't afford to pay their bills. It includes provisions aiming to limit food stamps for starving people.
00:23:09:07 - 00:23:48:11
David Sirota
It also includes a giant fossil fuel pipeline. At a time when scientists say we're in danger of creating catastrophic, irreversible climate change. So this is a Kevin McCarthy victory on its face with complicity from the Democratic president. But the thing that drives me nuts is that Kevin McCarthy berating government spending, he is a guy who has been bewailing government spending even though his entire life, or at least most of his entire life has been paid for by the government.
00:23:48:12 - 00:24:26:06
David Sirota
This dude went to public school. He then went to a government college, Cal State, Bakersfield, whose tuition, by the way, was apparently under $800 a year when he went according to the Debt collective. And now he's leading the fight, of course, to restart student loan payments. He was a county firefighter and then a career politician. For 20 plus years, This dude has barely known a life that hasn't been paid for by government spending.
00:24:26:08 - 00:25:02:02
David Sirota
Now, I think that's fine. Like going to public school, going to a government college, being a county firefighter, being an elected official. I have no problem with that. Like, I have no problem with him getting a government paycheck, government spending, supporting that life. Like ideologically, I'm fine with that. But that person having that life and then leading the charge to be, well, berate and criticize and vilify the entire concept of government spending, it's like way beyond just hypocritical.
00:25:02:07 - 00:25:08:14
David Sirota
It's like I don't even I mean, what word would you use for that producer? Frank? I don't even have a word for it.
00:25:08:16 - 00:25:30:05
Frank Cappello
I, I don't know all the words that are come into my head. I don't really want to say in front of our listeners. I'm honestly, like, hearing all that laid out. It's it's shocking that this guy has just been like been on the government dole, you know, his whole life. He was a firefighter. That's crazy. Like, I would love to know if anyone was a firefighter with Kevin McCarthy.
00:25:30:05 - 00:25:41:21
Frank Cappello
Please get in touch with us. I would love to know what he was like on the job. If he was like the guy that was like, I'm actually I'm going to hang back. You guys go ahead in the first round, get in there. And that fire is pretty terrible.
00:25:41:21 - 00:26:06:03
David Sirota
It's way beyond hypocrisy. It's just like it's one of those things that just it's like when you think that politicians and the, you know, the character of the soulless politician who will say or do anything, I mean, like dude whose life was bankrolled by the government, then becoming the guy who's vilifying government spending. I mean, that's it. That's why people think politicians, so many politicians are completely and totally soulless and inhuman.
00:26:06:03 - 00:26:26:13
David Sirota
Okay, We're going to stop there because we're going to get to our main interview with a politician, actually, Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut, who I will preface by saying, I actually don't think Chris Murphy is inhuman. I actually think he's a actually thinking and relatively rational person, even though it is a it was appointed discussion that we have with him.
00:26:26:18 - 00:26:49:04
David Sirota
And I asked him some pretty tough questions and we don't agree on everything. But he took the time to talk to us about the debt ceiling, about whether the outcome was predetermined, whether Joe Biden really did negotiate in any real way. We also talk about social media and what he's trying to do to put up some guardrails on social media to protect kids.
00:26:49:04 - 00:27:21:22
David Sirota
It's a huge issue. It's one I'm particularly interested in as a parent. That's all coming up next. But first, let's take a quick break. Welcome back to our time for our big interview today. I'm going to be speaking with Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. We talked about the debt ceiling deal and we also go deep on the harmful effects of social media on America's kids and how big tech has tweaked its technology to try to prey on kids and what can be done about that.
00:27:22:00 - 00:27:48:07
David Sirota
Now, let me let me take a moment here to provide a bit of context on that particular issue, because, again, we talked to Senator Murphy about the news cycle, what's happening right now on the debt ceiling, but this issue about social media and big tech. This is not a small issue. This is huge. By this point in 2023, pretty much every adult human has a basic understanding that social media is not great for us.
00:27:48:12 - 00:28:14:10
David Sirota
Whether you watched the 2020 documentary The Social Dilemma, which detailed social media's negative effects on our brain chemistry, or whether you've spent hours and hours doomscrolling ing on Twitter or TikTok, you know that most of the time social media doesn't make us feel good. If anything, it's purposely designed to addict us to feelings of depression, isolation and anger.
00:28:14:12 - 00:28:46:03
David Sirota
Now, this is especially true for kids. According to a survey by Common Sense Media. Teenagers report spending nearly 9 hours of every day in front of screens. 38% of kids ages 8 to 12 say they are now using social media and more than 60% report trying and failing to quit social media, which are possible signs of dependency and addiction, which frankly, is what these technology companies want.
00:28:46:05 - 00:29:15:18
David Sirota
At the same time, mental health problems in the United States have skyrocketed over the last few decades and most acutely in kids and teenagers. Now, we're not attributing all of those issues only to social media. Issues like climate change and the rising cost of living are obviously super depressing and kids key into that. But social media is almost certainly not helping and very likely making those feelings worse.
00:29:15:20 - 00:29:55:07
David Sirota
At this point, it's become clear that the social media companies, big tech, they are largely uninterested in addressing this problem on their own, and they're really beyond uninterested. They are making profit off of the current status quo. Their business model is literally predicated on using algorithms to hook users and keep them scrolling as long as possible. So that's why Senator Murphy and a bipartisan group of lawmakers recently proposed a piece of legislation called the Protecting Kids on Social Media Act, which aims to prevent some of the most harmful aspects of social media from endangering America's children.
00:29:55:09 - 00:30:20:10
David Sirota
This is an important issue. This is not some side issue. This is real. And I say that as a parent. I say that as someone who has friends who are roughly my age to who they have. They have kids. This is a pervasive issue, and I am thrilled that at least some folks in D.C. are talking about this because it is a really serious issue.
00:30:20:12 - 00:30:44:21
David Sirota
In this interview with Senator Chris Murphy. We also talked about how he believes that loneliness and isolation are some of the biggest issues facing every American in the modern era. And of course, that's connected also to the screen and to social media as well. Here's the interview with U.S. Senator Chris Murphy. Hey, Senator Rory, how you doing? I'm good. Good to be with
00:30:44:21 - 00:30:45:00
David Sirota
you.
00:30:45:03 - 00:30:59:19
David Sirota
Are you recovered from the Celtic's loss? My condolences over the loss last night. Although that's why I'm wearing a Denver jersey out here. So I have to say, I was rooting for the Celtics to lose. As a former field, I grew up in Philadelphia, so I just talked.
00:30:59:21 - 00:31:01:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
To your seven. You're 76 years now.
00:31:01:23 - 00:31:16:00
David Sirota
Well, I grew up with the Sixers. I've now lived in Denver almost as long as I lived in Philly. And so I was obviously as a being born and bred in Philadelphia or I wasn't born there. I was actually born in Connecticut. But being brought up in Philadelphia, I was rooting against the Celtics.
00:31:16:02 - 00:31:22:14
Sen. Chris Murphy
You're now you're now on the Denver bandwagon as well. So you jump on board.
00:31:22:16 - 00:31:33:01
David Sirota
Okay. I played I played some guilt there, although as I've said, they're my favorite Western Conference team. Okay. So so I found a way to square that circle. So. But yes, I'm on the bandwagon.
00:31:33:01 - 00:31:50:17
Sen. Chris Murphy
Yeah. I mean, so I am I am a diehard sports fan. I'm a Celtics fan, a Red Sox fan, a New York Giants fan. And so you have sort of that constellation of teams. You just can sort of never complain. Right? As I've lived through lots of championships and I think the Suffolk scene will actually win the whole thing at some point.
00:31:50:17 - 00:31:58:02
Sen. Chris Murphy
So, yes, I'm pissed off this morning, but I am I am I am Zen about my overall sports experience.
00:31:58:03 - 00:32:15:21
David Sirota
Well, hopefully we can complete the job that your team wasn't able to complete last night. And the Nuggets will beat the Heat. Fingers crossed on that. And as I said, by the way, other Connecticut connection, because you represent Connecticut. I was born in New Haven, so I'm excited to chat with you about. And I worked for Ned Lamont on his campaign.
00:32:15:21 - 00:32:40:19
David Sirota
So lots of Connecticut connections. Let's start with the big news of the of the of the week before we get to the social media stuff and the loneliness stuff that I really want to talk to you about. But I just want to talk about the debt ceiling for for a quick second here. The the debt ceiling negotiations, the Fiscal Responsibility Act cut spending speeds permitting for energy projects, including a big pipeline.
00:32:40:21 - 00:33:02:03
David Sirota
One Democratic aligned think think tank says the bill will increase hunger and poverty through some of the cuts to cash assistance programs. It seems like this is a big Republican victory, and yet there were a lot of Democrats saying that that they should have passed a debt ceiling increase in the lame duck session of Congress. Why didn't that happen?
00:33:02:03 - 00:33:05:21
David Sirota
And what's your take on on what this bill will do?
00:33:06:02 - 00:33:28:07
Sen. Chris Murphy
Well, it's a Republican victory. I don't know that it's a big Republican victory. I mean, so we can rewind kind of two times, Right. So rewind all the way to the end of last year. I don't remember that we had the votes to raise the debt ceiling. At that time, we're operating with a 50 vote majority. You needed every Democrat to raise the debt ceiling.
00:33:28:07 - 00:33:49:12
Sen. Chris Murphy
I actually don't think we had 50 votes to use reconciliation to raise the debt ceiling. So I'm not sure that that was even a possibility for us at the 50 vote threshold. But then, you know, rewind to earlier this year, there was a decision I made, Are we going to negotiate? Are we not going to negotiate? I will be honest with you.
00:33:49:12 - 00:34:16:23
Sen. Chris Murphy
I was a proponent of not negotiating. I was a proponent of saying this is not normal politics, threatening to take down the entire economy unless you get your very unpopular agenda passed with a knife to all of our throats and we shouldn't engage. And if the we default, then everyone will know that it's only one party that is sort of upending all these demands to what used to be a pretty routine function.
00:34:17:00 - 00:34:42:15
Sen. Chris Murphy
I did not win that argument. We ended up negotiating. We I actually, frankly, am surprised at the small scope of the bill. It's not good policy any of it, but it is pretty meager compared to what Republicans had demanded. And so I'm pleased that it's, you know, small amounts of bad policy, not big a massive bad policy. But if it were up to me, we would have just never negotiate with terrorists to begin with.
00:34:42:17 - 00:35:01:10
David Sirota
I want to ask a question that's come up. It sort of bubbled up this question of whether this was already preordained, whether this was all theater. There was a Senate floor speech that Joe Biden gave in 1995. And I want you to listen to the audio of what he said at the time.
00:35:01:12 - 00:35:28:01
Joe Biden
I proposed, along with Senator Grassley, and he mentioned this earlier and Senator Kassebaum, that we freeze every single solitary program in the government, that anything the government would do it, every single solitary one, that we not spend a penny more, not even accounting for inflation than we spent the year before. I when I argued if we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well.
00:35:28:03 - 00:35:41:15
Joe Biden
I meant Medicare. Medicaid. I meant veterans. But I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice. I tried the third time and I tried it a fourth time.
00:35:41:17 - 00:36:03:00
David Sirota
So my question, when we hear that audio, when you hear that audio and you hear people saying, you know, I feel like this was pre-scripted, I feel like the fix was in from the beginning, that this is actually what the Biden administration also wanted along with Republicans. What do you say to people who who say that in light of that context?
00:36:03:01 - 00:36:39:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
Well, I mean, putting it that way sounds a little conspiratorial, right? I don't think any of this was pre-decided. I'm not a you know, I'm not a historian of Joe Biden's previous political positions. But there is such thing as growth. There is such a thing as circumstances changing the way that you think about policy and politics. And my understanding is that this president, this version of Joe Biden, understands that the moment that we live in today requires a pretty massive investment in the middle class, and it involves an activist government creating industrial policy.
00:36:39:19 - 00:37:07:23
Sen. Chris Murphy
It involves saving millions of seniors from poverty through the preservation of Social Security. So, you know, I can't speak to what Joe Biden believed in the mid 1980s, but I'm pretty confident today. He believes that cutting Social Security, Medicare would be a really bad idea. And he thinks the government actually has to be actively involved in trying to lift up the fortunes of people who have been left behind by, you know, economic neoliberalism and the global flight of jobs away from the United States.
00:37:08:01 - 00:37:25:09
Sen. Chris Murphy
Some of that, I think, is new. I mean, I think some of the things he believes today are new views. And it is true that he has surprised some people in terms of the president, that he has become given sort of what he has run on in the past. But I think everything that he's saying today is sincere.
00:37:25:14 - 00:37:51:13
David Sirota
I want to. Last question on the debt ceiling issue. How much does the obsession, the rhetorical obsession with cutting spending have to do with this fake narrative that was manufactured? This narrative that government spending and not corporate profiteering caused inflation? This was a big thing that, you know, pundits were saying that the Democratic Party has a conspiracy theory.
00:37:51:13 - 00:38:22:22
David Sirota
That was one Washington Post columnist, a conspiracy theory that that corporations are using their market power to to to to to inflate prices and then actually the real inflation problem is government spending. And that that argument has been debunked. But I'm just curious, you inside the Senate, how much do you think that fake narrative created the conditions for a situation that tries to use the debt ceiling as a way to cut spending, with the justification being we got to control inflation?
00:38:22:22 - 00:38:51:18
Sen. Chris Murphy
Yeah, it's a good question. I'm not sure that I know the answer. I mean, frankly, you know, the political power behind cutting government spending, you know, existed well before this inflationary period. And it has been a hallmark of Republican politics for generations today. It is necessary in order for them to afford their massive tax cuts for billionaires and millionaires.
00:38:51:19 - 00:39:23:13
Sen. Chris Murphy
And so part of the reason why they have to be so focused on cutting spending is because they want to continue to be able to have the wiggle room to finance more rounds of giveaways to their billionaire corporate friends. So on the question of whether the messaging around how spending contributed to inflation led us to this moment, I'm not sure there's a direct line there because I think Republicans had lots of other reasons, sort of present and historical to cast their lot with cutting spending for the poor.
00:39:23:13 - 00:39:34:21
Sen. Chris Murphy
They've kind of always been for that, right? They've kind of always been for cutting spending on programs that actually matter to regular people. Now they have even more reason to do it because they've got to protect their tax cuts for their friends.
00:39:34:23 - 00:39:52:12
David Sirota
Real quick, the the the pipeline in this in this bill in this debt ceiling bill, are you going to support the effort to get this approval of the so-called Mountain Valley pipeline out of the bill? Do you think that can be successful? Do you think deal can be preserved if that is stripped out?
00:39:52:15 - 00:40:07:06
Sen. Chris Murphy
I will absolutely support trying to get rid of it, but I have not yet heard from Senator Schumer or others why it was necessary in order to get the votes. So I'll listen to the case they make, but that's a really shitty provision and it's bad for the country.
00:40:07:11 - 00:40:34:22
David Sirota
Okay, let's turn to your legislation, your new legislation about social media. You have a new bipartisan bill that deals with kids and social media. It's something that I'm particularly personally interested in because I have children and I, I worry about, you know, well, everything with my kids. But also but in particular screens and the the algorithms wending their way into their brains and the like.
00:40:35:00 - 00:40:44:08
David Sirota
Tell us about the bill you're proposing. And it is a bipartisan bill which is actually pretty optimistic. But tell us about it. What prompted you to introduce it and what it would do?
00:40:44:09 - 00:41:20:21
Sen. Chris Murphy
Well, I come at this from the same perspective you do, David. I've got two kids. I've got a teenager, a pre-teen, and I have watched with or the ways in which these technology companies, these social media companies are purposefully addicting our kids, often to incredibly dangerous, harmful content. They are turning our children into sources of vast amounts of profit and ultimately leading to a generation of children that are fundamentally unwell, much less well than any previous generation of kids.
00:41:20:23 - 00:41:47:00
Sen. Chris Murphy
You know, it takes 2 minutes from the point at which you sign up for a TikTok account to be to get to the point where you are being fed content that glorifies suicides or eating disorders. That's how quickly you can be sent, material that is potentially going to send you as a young developing brain into a really dangerous place.
00:41:47:00 - 00:42:14:16
Sen. Chris Murphy
And so now I've watched what this technology has done to my kids and to my kids friends, and I'm just like, we regulated cigarets. It's time for us to recognize that social media is just as if not more harmful than cigarets were to our kids. And so to me it just made sense to really be much more careful than we are about giving kids access, unfettered access to social media.
00:42:14:16 - 00:42:48:18
Sen. Chris Murphy
So it's a really interesting collection of senators that have introduced this. It's me and Brian Schatz on the left. It's Tom Cotton, who I don't think I'm doing anything else with on this bill. And Katie Brett on the right. And the bill is tough. It does three things. It says you got to have age verification on these sites, real age verification, so that the social media companies have to actually make good on their promise not to allow anybody under 13 on second, if you're between 13 and 17, your parent has to consent.
00:42:48:20 - 00:43:17:16
Sen. Chris Murphy
I think parents want more involvement in that decision as to whether their kid goes online. And in third, for those 13 to 17 year olds, you can't have these these algorithms that take your personal data and deliver you, feed you addictive content. So if a kid wants to be on TikTok, that's fine. But Tik, I can't use that kid's personal data to continue to give them more and more perfecting content.
00:43:17:18 - 00:43:31:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
Sometimes that content is just stupider and sillier videos, but for kids that are in dangerous and difficult places, often that content ends up, you know, promoting really dangerous behaviors.
00:43:31:22 - 00:43:55:09
David Sirota
So you're a senator who's looked deeply at the ways tech companies ensnare kids. You've looked at that. You're in a position to to study that. The simple question that I sometimes come back to is what age is appropriate for kids to have phones? What age is it appropriate for them to to to be on these things in the first place?
00:43:55:09 - 00:44:16:12
David Sirota
And I also think about why are computers, for instance, so ubiquitous in the classroom, in schools for kids at such a young age? I mean, there's a whole catalog of questions that that this brings up. And I just wonder if somebody says to you, hey, you know, Senator Murphy, you know, my kid wants a phone or know, how old should they be?
00:44:16:12 - 00:44:18:05
David Sirota
I mean, where do you come down on something like that?
00:44:18:11 - 00:44:50:12
Sen. Chris Murphy
I don't think there's a universal rule because phones have all sorts of different utilities. Right. So, you know, for us as parents of kids in a busy city, one of the ways that we give our kids a little bit more freedom to explore the city is to have a son. And so, you know, for us, that has been kind of middle school age because that's when we give the kids a little bit more, more leash.
00:44:50:14 - 00:45:16:07
Sen. Chris Murphy
But I would feel much better about giving my child a phone if I knew I had more control over what else they use the phone for. And right now, there's really nothing stopping my child from masquerading as a 21 year old and signing on to these social media sites and getting sent garbage softcore pornography, snuff videos. I mean, it's pretty unreal what's on there.
00:45:16:09 - 00:45:43:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
Now, this bill would at least give parents the ability to say no and no. When you're giving a kid a phone, you have some ability to control what it's what it's used for. But can I just add one thing? This question, though, of sort of what's happening in our schools with screens I think is really important, too, because for a long time we thought that this was a great thing, that kids were getting sort of early access to technology because this was the future.
00:45:43:21 - 00:46:12:17
Sen. Chris Murphy
You had to learn it early. I really worry, you know, connected to this conversation about how easy it's going to be for our teachers and our boards of education. Just outsource learning to computers. It's a timesaver. It's a money saver. It's a salary saver. When I tutorial system is going to be able to learn from the kid and give them more relevant content, you're going to see more and more kids spending more and more time on a screen.
00:46:12:20 - 00:46:28:17
Sen. Chris Murphy
And arguably that's good for the kid because they're going to learn Spanish faster. But it's probably really bad for the kid because that time staring at a screen and learning to be addicted to the screen is going to rob them of the kind of real healthy connections that give you a full life.
00:46:28:19 - 00:46:44:20
David Sirota
I'm really glad you're thinking about that because, you know, I just look at what's going on in my picking. I like my kids school that it's a good school and it's public school and they're doing they're doing the best they can with the resources they have. But the computers in the classroom, I'm just it just kind of creeps me out.
00:46:44:20 - 00:47:07:19
David Sirota
Like there's a double edged sword, as you suggest now. Now, I want to turn to this this question of of loneliness that is connected to your critique of social media. You've been a senator who's been talking about the plague, the epidemic, really, of loneliness. The surgeon general has reported that about one in two adults in America reported experiencing loneliness, and that was before the pandemic.
00:47:07:19 - 00:47:29:09
David Sirota
And I do think that your analysis about how social media sort of intensifies feelings of loneliness and isolation is is spot on. Why do you believe fighting loneliness can and should be a public policy priority? And what kinds of policies can really combat loneliness?
00:47:29:11 - 00:47:51:13
Sen. Chris Murphy
I think there is a public policy for Congress, state legislators, governors to talk about this epidemic of loneliness is just true, as you said, that there are far more people who are feeling lonely and alone and isolated in ever before. As a surgeon general has pointed out, there are real health consequences to feeling lonely. If you are feeling lonely, you are also going to be less physically healthy.
00:47:51:13 - 00:48:19:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
It has a physical impact on you, the stress of loneliness. But you are also less likely to go seek out the kind of support you need to feel better. So all of us are bearing the cost of the health consequences of loneliness because we're all paying in premiums and taxes. But it is also true that lonely people, people who are feeling disconnected, will search for that connection, search for that meaning.
00:48:19:21 - 00:48:50:12
Sen. Chris Murphy
And when it's not available in healthy places, family, friends, local communities and cultures, they will often find it in unhealthy places. Divisive movements, white supremacy, demagogues, people who will tell you that your meaning comes from hating others, right? Not joining others. And so I don't it's a coincidence that we are watching people storm the Capitol in an era where people are feeling more disconnected from each other than ever before.
00:48:50:14 - 00:49:07:15
Sen. Chris Murphy
They often find that connection not meaning in these really hateful fringe movements. So I think there's that imperative as well to take a look at it. So those are the reasons why I think we should care for as a public policy matter. And we can get into all the ways that we sort of make people feel less lonely.
00:49:07:15 - 00:49:31:22
Sen. Chris Murphy
Part of it is getting people off of screens. Part of it is convincing folks to spend their free time engaged in in-person connection. I just think what we have learned is that the engagement you and I are having right now, well, you know, miraculous that we can talk to each other across the country. It's just it's not it's not doing the same thing to us as if you and I were sitting having a meal together.
00:49:31:22 - 00:49:50:00
Sen. Chris Murphy
It is not as fulfilling. It doesn't make us happy. And so we've got to sort of we've got to push back on the things that end up addicting us to social media so that we spend more time in person. And then lastly, I just think we've got to start building sort of healthy places for people to find each other.
00:49:50:00 - 00:50:15:10
Sen. Chris Murphy
And so we've got to have purposeful policies of rebuilding downtowns, rebuilding social clubs, rebuilding churches, right? That's got to be a public policy conversation around how we make places that people can see each other in person. And that's a kind of an uncomfortable conversation because it involves public subsidies and public support to things that we don't normally publicly support.
00:50:15:10 - 00:50:16:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
But I think it's part of the solution.
00:50:17:00 - 00:50:38:17
David Sirota
Okay. In a recent article about loneliness and I agree with you, it is a huge issue and I am really glad that that you are thinking about this as a public policy issue. And in this article you wrote that anger, as you alluded to, is a product or can be a product of loneliness. And that anger leads obviously to all sorts of bad things.
00:50:38:18 - 00:51:03:15
David Sirota
I just want to flip it around though. What if lots of people are angry not just because they're lonely, but because they see folks in Washington? They feel like folks in Washington or in their state legislatures are helping the rich while the working class get ground into the dust. And in other words, at a time of like rampant wealth inequality, corruption, climate crisis isn't some level of anger, rational and righteous.
00:51:03:15 - 00:51:13:06
David Sirota
And even if we do a better job of addressing loneliness, do we really a society that isn't pissed off about those kinds of things?
00:51:13:09 - 00:51:32:17
Sen. Chris Murphy
Yeah, I mean, this is it exists inside a movement, the anti-gun violence movement of which I worry every single day that we are not pissed off, that we are not angry on a daily basis at what our kids are having to live through. So, you know, I spend part of my day, right, trying to generate what I think is appropriate outrage.
00:51:32:18 - 00:52:00:06
Sen. Chris Murphy
And then I'm spending an increasing amount of my time trying to do something about the kind of anger that comes from less healthy places. This is really tricky business for public policy, right? Which is why I admit that I'm stepping into this debate with some trepidation, because you're absolutely correct. The goal of public policy should not be to minimize outrage and to just anesthetize the country right to things that they feel are unjust.
00:52:00:07 - 00:52:20:05
Sen. Chris Murphy
But at the same time, I think you can be a little bit more surgical and see there are some kinds of anger that come from sort of sources that don't have a lot of positive good. Right? There's not a lot of positive. The good that comes from loneliness, from just feeling like I don't have friends, I don't have people to connect to.
00:52:20:07 - 00:52:42:11
Sen. Chris Murphy
So if you attack that source of anger, I actually don't think you're compromising the moral, national and more productive sources of anger, which is injustice. Right. So I hear you. I think it's fraught but I think there's a way to deal with the loneliness problem without compromising rational and productive anger.
00:52:42:17 - 00:53:10:08
David Sirota
So I think one form of productive anger, as an example, is being angry and unsatisfied with the Supreme Court. And that leads me to my final question for you. As the senator from the state where the Sandy Hook massacre happened, you've been a, as you alluded to, a leading proponent of gun control. And thank you for that. But you also recently noted that the Supreme Court could eventually rule that even universal background checks are unconstitutional.
00:53:10:13 - 00:53:37:05
David Sirota
And I agree with you there, too. The Supreme Court could do that. So the question then is, amid all of the corruption scandals at the Supreme Court and all of its extremist rulings, why have Democrats been so reluctant to advocate for court expansion or even court term limits? The Biden administration opposes it, even as the court has issued more extremist rulings and again, even as the court has been engulfed in these corruption crises.
00:53:37:06 - 00:53:56:18
David Sirota
What has to happen for the Democratic Party to get really serious here when it comes to expanding the court? Or should we just conclude that for all the rhetoric of outrage about the Supreme Court, that we do hear from Democrats, that that your colleagues in the Congress are actually kind of content with the status quo?
00:53:56:21 - 00:54:23:08
Sen. Chris Murphy
I don't think anybody is content with the status quo. I think it's a it's a very big thing to propose a systematic reform to the Supreme Court. So I'm open to the proposals that exist today. I'm learning about them, but I don't tread lightly into a proposal to dramatically change the number of justices or the terms of Supreme Court members of the Supreme Court.
00:54:23:10 - 00:55:08:18
Sen. Chris Murphy
You might not agree with me here, but part of my worry is that I think our party's focus should be on winning elections and becoming a party that is popular everywhere, not just in sort of the East coast and the West Coast in urban areas of suburban areas, but rural areas as well. I think sometimes our party veers very quickly into discussions about rules, changes, which kind of distracts us from a tougher conversation about why we're getting our clocks cleaned in rural areas, why we can't win 30 of 50 states, why over and over again, we have majorities in the Senate that ultimately vote for these radical conservative justices.
00:55:08:20 - 00:55:27:23
Sen. Chris Murphy
And so I understand all of that is because the rules right now favor a minority of Americans who support conservative candidates. But I also think we should spend some time right now just trying to win more elections and be more relevant in places before we automatically cast sort of all of our lot on on changing the rules.
00:55:28:01 - 00:55:47:06
David Sirota
I want to add, I certainly agree that the party has to do a lot better job in in so-called red areas. I mean, one of the campaigns I worked on was a campaign, a successful campaign for a Democrat for governor of Montana, and that was his whole thing. Brian Schweitzer, that was his big thing, right? That the Democrats need to speak be able to speak to people all across the country.
00:55:47:08 - 00:56:13:15
David Sirota
I just think that the the court and I agree with you, too, this focus on rules and technicalities and and but the court just feels so oppressive at this point. I mean, I guess I just want to push you a little bit. Like, does something else have to happen with court issuing an even more extreme ruling? Like, I feel like the court has has explicitly told us who it is and what it is doing and that you can pass, create legislation.
00:56:13:15 - 00:56:22:02
David Sirota
But there's always a threat now that it will just be invalidated. I mean, does something else have to happen to to sort of change the dynamic here?
00:56:22:02 - 00:56:45:14
Sen. Chris Murphy
Right. And is two ways to approach what is happening on the court. You can either decide to change the justices that are on the court or you can decide to win elections. And winning elections takes much longer, right, to get the change that you need. But it might have a more lasting impact on our priorities in the long term survivability of our priorities.
00:56:45:14 - 00:57:20:01
Sen. Chris Murphy
Because if we change the court by changing the rules, when we lose the majority of the other, the Republicans can do that, can do the same. So for me, you know, my focus right now is on being a more electable party and movement. I'm I'm I'm open to those proposals to change the structure of the court. I haven't endorsed any one of them yet because I am very worried about how long it would take us to re-orient the court towards the vast majority of the American public who support choice, who support background checks.
00:57:20:03 - 00:57:27:18
Sen. Chris Murphy
But I also don't want us to be distracted from our, I think, main mission, which has got to be being electable everywhere.
00:57:27:20 - 00:57:46:18
David Sirota
Senator Chris Murphy represents the great state of Connecticut, a place that I was born in. And I really appreciate you taking the time with us today. And again, just to reiterate what I said at the top, my condolences on the Celtics loss last night. I'm very much hoping our team here in Denver finishes the job that you guys couldn't complete last night.
00:57:46:18 - 00:57:51:09
David Sirota
But I'm hopeful Jokic and Murray can do it where you guys couldn't.
00:57:51:11 - 00:57:54:02
Sen. Chris Murphy
The red Sox season is still young.
00:57:54:04 - 00:57:55:09
David Sirota
Thanks man I really appreciate.
00:57:55:09 - 00:57:57:19
Sen. Chris Murphy
It Thank you.
00:57:57:21 - 00:58:20:16
David Sirota
That's it for today's show. As a reminder our paid subscribers who get leaver time premium you get access to our special bonus episodes as well so listen to leave your time premium, just head over to our news.com to become a supporting subscriber. When you do you get access to all delivers premium content including our weekly newsletters and our live events and that's all for just eight bucks a month or 70 bucks for the year.
00:58:20:22 - 00:58:39:11
David Sirota
One last favor, Please be sure to like, subscribe and write a review for leisure time on your favorite podcast app. The app you are listening to right now. Take 10 seconds and give us a positive review in that app and make sure to check out all of the incredible reporting our team has been doing over at my for news.com.
00:58:39:12 - 00:58:53:16
David Sirota
Until next time. I'm David Sirota. Rock the Boat. The Liver Time podcast is a production of The Lover and the Lover podcast Network. It's hosted by me, David Sirota. Our producer is Frank Cappello, with help from the Levers lead producer Jared Chang. Mayor.