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The Distillery podcast explores what motivates the work of Christian scholars and why it matters for theology and ministry.
Shari (00:00):
What do young Black girls have to teach all of us about God and about living our Christian faith? In today's interview, Khristi Lauren Adams explores the unique and valuable theological insights of Black girls, including their perspectives on scripture, service, suffering, and hospitality. Her new book is titled Womanish Theology: Discovering God through the Lens of Black Girlhood. Adams is an author, speaker, and youth advocate holding degrees from Temple University and Princeton Theological Seminary. Through her work, Adams seeks to empower, educate, and inspire Black girls, and to help them be seen and valued by others. Additionally, she serves as executive director of community and belonging for the St. Paul's Schools in Baltimore. You're listening to The Distillery at Princeton Theological Seminary. Khristi, thank you so much for talking with me today.
Khristi (00:57):
Thanks for having me.
Shari (00:58):
I'm curious, some folks who travel in the theological world that you described that you have in your background as well, might be familiar with the term womanist theology, but the title of your book is Womanish Theology. So can you just tease that out a little bit, what those two things are and how they're similar or different?
Khristi (01:19):
So in my introduction of my book, what I try to do is lay that out a little bit just so that I don't just dive into my story and say, hey, this is womanish. And so one of the things that I cover is a little bit about what womanist theology is and the womanist tradition, which is a framework that focuses on the experiences, the lives of black women, women, in general. And within that womanist tradition, Black girls are assumed. And so the term actually comes from Alice Walker, the author, from her 1983 book In Search of our Mothers’ Gardens. And what she does is she provides this explanation of the term womanist, what she means by it before she lays out the framework for what womanist is. And in that, she says that it's from the term womanish, which is an old school term that Black women, particularly Black mothers, would refer to their female children. And so sort of like, you're acting too grown or you're acting old, right?
Shari (02:36):
Almost a reprimand a little bit.
Khristi (02:38):
Yeah. Reprimand. It could have negative connotations behind it or the history of it would be that, let's say my mom never said this to me specifically, but I'm just using this as an example. If I put on lipstick and I'm 10 years old and I'm walking around the house, that might be an example where you might say, oh, you acting, why are you acting womanish? Take that lipstick off. That type of thing.
Shari (03:03):
Like a playful…
Khristi (03:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, and then there are some cases where it could be seen as maybe on sort of the negative end, like stop acting womanish. You're acting too grown, right? So basically acting grown-up, you're being sort of grown-up. And basically one statement used to be, stay in a child's place, you're a child, so stay in a child's place. And so the term womanist comes from that term womanish. And so that's where I sort of got that womanish. And what I really wanted to do was to change the framework for the term just a bit. And I'm not the first person that has done this, so I do want to make sure that I sort of pay homage to there are some women out there doing the research and there's some that are doing practical work around the term womanish, but it's more of a behavioral term. And so for the purposes of my book, it's rooted in the term womanist, but womanish theology is more about Black girls exploring grown-up concepts. So playing on the whole acting grown phrase to, okay, grown-up concepts, grown-up theological concepts, and how do Black girls perceive grown-up theological concepts? More specifically myself, using myself as an example, how did in my Black girlhood, how did I perceive grown-up concepts around theology? And how did my adolescent mind comprehend that? And how did that shape my faith for today?
Shari (04:52):
And you do such a beautiful job of weaving together your perspective and the perspectives of others. So I'd love to talk about that a bit more. You really beautifully share some of your own stories and then integrate the perspectives of others. Is there a story that you think you could share with our listeners that you think kind of exemplifies the kind of way that you think something you experience in girlhood illuminates kind of a larger concept to that you would say is womanist? Just to put a story around what we're describing.
Khristi (05:28):
So there's one chapter in particular where I go into womanish, what I call womanish theodicy. And theodicy being sort of responding to the question, why is there evil and suffering? Or if God were this good God, an omnipotent God, then why would that God allow evil and suffering? Which was something that I learned a lot at Princeton. That was a term that I wasn't necessarily familiar with the term before my seminary education, but I was familiar with the feeling and the sentiment around it, and that was what I was trying to relay in the book. That evil and suffering was something that I was presented with at a young age and the world or the reality that we live in with a lot of just young people in general, having to live in this world of evil and suffering. But for me specifically, having to grapple with my faith that I was introduced to at such a young age, and then this sort of the reality of this evil and suffering and how to reconcile my faith with that. I tell the story about when I was 15 years old, and how, without going into all the detail, but one of my peers, one of my friends, her name was Norelle Jordan, and she was killed.
Khristi (06:58):
She was killed. I was a basketball player, she was a basketball player too. And we grew up at our church together at First Baptist and we bonded over our love for basketball. And one day, we were actually on the same basketball team and there was a basketball tournament, and the basketball tournament was canceled. It was Memorial Day weekend in 1998. And so we had that sort of day off like most people in public schools have off. And Norelle, I got a phone call that morning that Norelle had been killed by her father and that he shot her, and then he killed her mother, and then he killed himself and there was a baby involved, but the baby he left, the baby was her older sister's son who, the older sister was living with them at the time, but was at work. And so they were watching the baby, so he left the baby.
Shari (8:08):
What a horrible tragedy.
Khristi (08:06):
It was a lot as a 15-year-old and that wasn't, you know it’s interesting, I think about the young people in today's age who, they grow up around this constantly, mass shootings and school shootings and things like that. That just wasn’t, it wasn't something that I could conceptualize then. I don't think it makes it any easier for these young people, but it wasn't something that I had ever really been introduced to that type of tragedy and that type of violence. So to get that, that morning, and then I reflect a little bit on this conversation that I had had with her at basketball practice maybe a week prior where I asked her why I hadn't seen her at church anymore in the youth ministry. And she said she didn't believe in God. And I told her, that's cool. And I remembered that conversation I had with her and I was like, oh my God, what if she's in hell?
Shari (09:09):
So in the middle of your grief, you're also having this existential crisis about your faith.
Khristi (09:16):
Yeah, and that actually didn't happen until I was at her funeral. I reflected back on that conversation, but I write in the book about going to the funeral. I write about the days leading up to the funeral and everything that I was sort of grappling with and then getting to the funeral, and it was a three casket funeral. They all were there. And I see, even to this day, have never been to a funeral that was a triple funeral like that. And just that entire experience and how it just sits with me even to this day, right? It's like I can talk about it and I'm transported back there. And just how that changed me. There was an existential, like you said, there was sort of an existential crisis that I was going through. The sort of question of, I asked earlier, if God is good and all powerful, then why does evil exist?
Khristi (10:07):
How could something like this happen? There was questions around purpose where it was, after the funeral, it's like, well, everything was basketball up until that point. That was all we did. So then it was, well, if you can be taken from this world as a 16-year-old, because she was 16, then well, who’s to say that I couldn't be taken, and then if that's the case, how am I supposed to be spending my time here on this earth? So it was a real moment for me. I would say that it was a sort of fork in the road moment for me, I would say. But I talk about that classical theological question of evil and how my 15-year-old mind wrestled with that. And then I go a little bit further into, in each chapter I talk about myself, but I also talk about other Black girls. And…
Shari (11:11):
What did you learn from other Black girls who had also experienced significant struggles when they were young?
Khristi (11:20):
For starters that there's a humanity that I think because Black girls have a tendency to be an overlooked sort of, they are a marginalized demographic that has a tendency to be overlooked, that we forget that they experience evil and suffering just like any other human being, right? Loss and pain and hurt. But they're also a part of a demographic of Black women that also have to deal with sort of the myth of the strong Black woman, that they can handle it. They're good. So they also have to deal with that. And the reason why I say that is because it's easy to overlook the fact that these young people experience loss and pain like any other human being. If you look at them and you say, oh, well they got this, they're just fine.
Khristi (12:15):
And then there's these layers for young Black girls that are painful experiences that have to do with race, have to do with gender and the evil that comes from oppression and discrimination and abuse. And so when talking to these young girls, there was a natural resilience. I'm almost hesitant to jump there because I didn't want to…
Shari (12:39):
Well, you don't want to downplay the struggle at all. At all.
Khristi (12:40):
Right, right, right. Right. Right. Right. I just want to sit with them in the fact and affirm the fact that these things happen. They experienced it at different levels. I experienced mine with that one example. There was another girl that experienced one with her own family situation that she was going through and had a mother that committed, well, she didn't commit suicide. I think she overdosed. And then there's most young people, like I'd mentioned, who are growing up in today's world who have to observe the things that are happening in our society, the things that happen in our world, or just going to school and being unsure if there's going to be someone that comes in with a gun.
Khristi (13:26):
There's these layers to Black girls' experiences is what I noticed. They experience the things that most young girls would experience because of their gender. That's the intersectionality of it. And then they experience the things that, marginalized identities, meaning more of the people of color experience, the things that young Black people experience. They experience the issues just with their youth in general. So it's those layers. But again, like you said, it's not jumping to the resilience, but there is a resilience in the face of evil and suffering that I have noticed that that's what winds up happening when anybody, but when young people don't feel like there's going to be a life raft for them or anybody's going to throw them a bone, it becomes like, all right, well, I have to be self-sustaining here. I have to sort of figure out, okay, how do I pull out the hope from this? How do I pull out the lesson from this on my own since it's not going to be just handed to me and given to me easily? So I sort of argue that there's this sort of innate ability or an innate wisdom that they have to pull these things out, and that includes their faith, leaning on their faith, leaning on God, their personal relationship, so, so much to it. But that's just one example.
Shari (14:58):
Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. There's just one chapter that focuses explicitly on what you've described, this question of theodicy, but there are a couple others that I'd love to dig into a little bit as well. And one of the early ones that you address is scripture and the way that being, at least for you, kind of raised with the Bible and with prayer, I should add, were deeply formative for you. Can you say more about that?
Khristi (15:26):
Yeah. So I talk about my early experiences with my grandmother as well as my great aunt who is my grandmother's twin sister. And just growing up, because I was thinking a lot about the role of scripture in my life when I was writing this. And immediately I sort of naturally went to church. That was my first place. And that's where a lot of people would, if they’re people of faith, would say, oh, I learned this in Vacation Bible School or, you know. And so that's where I started writing originally. And then I thought to myself, wait a minute. I was exposed to scripture way, way, way before then because the question really isn't necessarily, where did you first traditionally learn scripture, it’s, when was I first exposed to scripture, in general? And it's twofold for me. It's just, it’s the showing of scripture from my grandmother of, here's some scriptures before we eat breakfast or dinner, have a family meal, just have the little, our daily scripture. Yeah, the little, our daily bread scriptures in the middle of the table we used to have. But even beyond that, it's me watching her read her Bible, I remember.
Shari (16:44):
Yeah, describe it. What did you see as a kid?
Khristi (16:47):
I specifically, I'm transported by, I can close my eyes now and see Mama Hattie was what we affectionately called my grandmother. And she would be sitting in her room on the side of the bed and she'd have her little robe on. And it was because it was the first thing in the morning that she would do before anything. And the little night, the little table on the side with the light, the light would be on and she'd have her Bible. And the Bible was clearly a used Bible. And I don't mean that in sort of a capitalistic sense. I mean that in the sense it was passed down. Yeah.
Shari (17:30):
Generationally born, yeah.
Khristi (17:32):
Yeah, it was used that she read that thing and she would sit on the side and she would, I would hear her sort of whispering. And some of that was just her reading the scripture out loud to herself or praying. She had on her big glasses that were sort of like bifocal glasses, and I would just sit there on the other end of the bed or peek into the room and she was reading scripture and wasn't a lot of, that was her moment, that was her time with God. So there wasn’t a, it wasn't like I felt like I could interrupt, but at the same time, it was a teachable moment for me because it was like, this is something that I, what it taught me is that it was important. This was an important moment. This was something that was sacred that was set aside, even though I didn't have the words to articulate exactly what it was, if that makes any sense.
Shari (18:31):
Absolutely. It's a beautiful, we're kind of getting to peek through that door with you. And how did the experiences of the other folks that you interviewed kind of resonate or diverge from your own?
Khristi (18:51):
You mean in terms of scripture.
Shari (18:52):
When it comes to scripture. Yeah.
Khristi (18:54):
There was a lot of resonating with, because I didn't just interview young people in this, I wanted it to be intergenerational because you could be a 39-year-old woman, or even a 60-year-old woman or a 70-year-old woman, and you're reflecting back on your girlhood. And so that was something that I really wanted to make sure that was in there. But the women that were actually across the board, there was this sense of something being passed down. Even the 15-year-olds or the 14-year-olds were like, my mom is always texting me some encouraging scripture or something like that.
Shari (19:35):
Oh, I loved that part. When you were talking about all these Bible memes.
Khristi (19:40):
That's for today. But that sense of, it's important, whether they were rolling their eyes and laughing about it or whatever, it's important. And then the older women, the same thing, it was, whether it was they learned about their faith or scripture from their grandmother or that they memorized scripture early, they went to Vacation Bible School, very similar language. There was one that was the woman that was talking about memorizing scripture, and then there was a 14-year-old girl that was talking about her earliest scripture memories of memorizing John 3:16. So I realized that that scripture memorization was something that was very consistent, but the Bible stories, these ideas of passing down these stories and remembering these stories and then also just what it meant to sort of apply them to your life when you need, you pull from them when you have need for them. So I thought that that was consistent in how some of the girls sort of understood. But then there was the modern day young girls who have their questions or their critiques of the inconsistencies that they may see when it comes to scripture and how some in the Christian community may interpret it and maybe treat others.
Khristi (21:12):
But they were a little bit more bold with their biblical criticism than some of the older generation or my generation it was like, you better not. You might feel that way, but you don't say it. Not these ones. These ones are like, no, I'm going to say it. I have an issue with this. So I appreciated that too.
Shari (21:32):
So they've kind of been handed the same legacy, but they might not be navigating or receiving it in the same, in quite the same way, which makes sense. I think given what we know about generations. And there's one other aspect that both of the things you've described feel, I love how you talk about how they're woven into your DNA through your upbringing, but you talk about service in a similar way. I think if I'm recalling this correctly, you describe an innate theology of service, and I'd love to hear more about that from your story and the stories of others.
Khristi (22:09):
Yeah, so excuse me. I'm sorry.
Shari (22:13):
That's okay.
Khristi (22:13):
I talk a bit about my family, particularly in the Black church growing up with parents and family members who were, matriculated in the Black church in general. And I say that because the Black church has historically been so centered around service. It's not just been the preaching text, but it's been, what is our role in the community? What is our role for our neighbors? So that I believe is ingrained in the theology of service in the Black church and has been since the inception of the Black church. So I think that that is sort of a natural, if you have had family members, for me, my uncles, my grandparents, great grand, and then subsequently my parents who had any sort of leadership or any membership at all within the Black church, you're going and you're going to serve. And so that was something that was naturally I believe passed down to me. My dad was a deacon at the church, and then my mom was a deaconess. Nowadays they're just both called deacons in a lot of churches. So there's not that sort of gender distinction, but there was when I was growing up, and so I was a deacon's kid, and I watched us go to church on Sunday mornings, but that wasn't the most influential part. Sunday morning was just a small piece of it for me.
Shari (23:53):
Yeah, what did it look like outside of that?
Khristi (23:54):
Yeah, the other six days of the week. And that was them, watching them serve communion to people in, whether it's in the nursing homes or those that we would call sick and shut-in, who actually couldn't physically make it to church, visiting members in hospitals, supporting, my dad was a part of the benevolence ministry, and he was in charge of that. And so that meant that people in the church, we had a special offering where people would give money just into this one pot, and someone or a group, a ministry would be over that. And when people would come to the church and say, hey, look, I'm having trouble with my rent, or, hey, look, I can't afford this, or I'm homeless. They would dispense the money that way. And so my dad was responsible for that. People would come all the time crying or frustrated.
Khristi (24:47):
We also had a lot of economic empowerment in the community, just in general, going, making sure that we were helping facilitate some of the housing needs for those that, whether they were in foreclosure or needed any sort of personal support just in general, there was a lot of youth, a big youth focus. And it wasn't just, hey, come to our church. It was showing up at the school board meetings. It was showing up at the schools. It was doing block parties and giving away book bags. And so it was just a constant of how I grew up. And I know that not every young Black girl necessarily grew up that way. And so that was something that I wanted to make sure that I was sort of distinctive. But the service aspect, I just believe it is part of the Black community, the traditional Black community, of just making sure that we're looking out for each other.
Khristi (25:44):
And really, that goes back to what I was saying a little earlier when I was saying the young girls, when they're grappling with evil and suffering, and if they feel like there's no one that's necessarily going to be there to help them through that, then they figure it out on their own. And so I think the Black community has been self-sufficient in that we're like, hey, we can't rely on the outside. We're going to have to make sure that we empower ourselves. We're going to have to make sure that it comes from within. And I believe that the Black church was a big catalyst for that. And so that's what I mean by sort of like in our DNA.
Shari (26:14):
Yeah. You shared a number of stories about young Black girls literally founding service organizations out of a similar impulse. Are there a few that come to mind for you as examples?
Khristi (26:27):
Yeah, so I'm laughing because my second book Unbossed, it's called Unbossed: How Black Girls Are Leading the Way. And that really could have been the theology of service book to be 100% honest, because those are all Black, young Black girls and now young adults actually who saw a need in their community or saw a need just in society and said, hey, I'm going to start this. And so I don't know if I write about it in this book, and I probably do a little bit. But in Unbossed, there's one young girl named Ssanyu Lukoma, who founded Brown Kids Read, which she wanted to, she noticed that there was sort of a lack of literature when she was younger that were a Black or brown protagonist, sort of a central character. I mean, we're beginning to see way more diverse books now, right?
Shari (27:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Khristi (27:27):
At the time she didn't, and she was like, I really want to start something where we are finding these books and bringing them into our communities and offering them to young people and to families so that they will have adequate representation.
Khristi (27:42):
So she started Brown Kids Read and even continues that to this day. She's a freshman at Howard University. There is, I talk about Tyah-Amoy Roberts in that book and how she is one of the survivors of the Parkland School shooting a few years back and how March for Our Lives was sort of founded from that. But she noticed that there was a subset of Black and brown students in their school that were sort of largely going unnoticed, like, hey, we're grieving too. Hey, we dealt with this too, because the focus was so much on one particular community. And she spoke up, her and her friends, and really advocated for the students there. And then wound up joining March for Our Lives and becoming a speaker. And part of her platform was to make sure that she was highlighting the communities in other areas of Florida or Chicago or other cities that were experiencing violence and weren't necessarily getting the national attention.
Khristi (28:44):
And then the last person I'm going to mention is Hannah Lucas, who in a moment of challenge and personal suicidal ideation, she had a vision where she was struggling and she reached for her phone when she was struggling. Her mom came in when she was having that moment and really sort of saved her life there because she was thinking about just sort of ending it all. But she said in that moment, she thought about others who were having mental challenges, emotional challenges, and said, what if they had an app where they can press a button and send out their location to some of their closest people to let them know that they're not okay so that they can come? Because she was like, my mom came in my moment of stress. That's not always the case with others. And so she started, her and her brother started something called the notOK App, where all they have to do is press a button and it would send the location to, their GPS location, to five of their closest contacts, letting them know that they're not okay. And they would either call or come directly to them. So there's just so many stories like that of young Black girls who are not just inventive and innovative, but who are like, I see a need. Let's meet that need.
Shari (30:05):
Khristi, that story about Hannah Lucas just literally gave me chills. That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. To have the presence of mind, to think of others in the midst of your own crisis is really just remarkable. If there's any kind of encouragement or a question you hope that folks will keep asking, what would that encouragement or question be?
Khristi (30:34):
I think I want, it's not necessarily the question. I want young, young people. I want people to see these girls and to, because I don't want for them to continue to be marginalized and overlooked. And so that's really sort of my, out of everything that I'm writing and doing in life, the question for me is, how can I position these girls? How can I center these girls and talk about them in such a way where people stop walking past them, where people stop just completely overlooking them and their needs and start paying attention. And I really just want people to pay attention. And I don't mean that in a way where they're singling them out and making them feel like they're an exhibit in a museum. As much as you are seen, you are heard, we are taking the time out for you. And so I just, I spoke at a school in February in New Orleans, and the whole day I was spending with administrators and faculty and people about their Black girls, their small Black girl demographic.
Khristi (31:44):
And the main theme was how, are the Black girls getting the message that they are important too here. And if they're not, then what spaces are you creating for them? What conversations are you having with them? Are you letting them know like, hey, how's your day going? And so it's not necessarily the question that I want people to walk away with. I really want people to begin to sort of open their eyes and begin to engage with this demographic that is not normally one that is at the center. And to sit with these girls and to ask them, hey, what do you think about image of God? What do you think about evil and suffering? And they're like, oh, you care about my opinion? And I'm just like, yeah, I really want to know. I want to learn from you. I want to know what you think about this. I want to know what you've experienced. I want to know what you've been through, and how can I support? How can I help? How can I just sit here at your feet and pay some attention to you that you don't normally get? That's what I want people to begin to do.
Shari (32:48):
You've been listening to The Distillery at Princeton Theological Seminary. I'm your host, Shari Oosting. Our editorial and production team includes LaDonna Damon, Armond Banks, Madeline Polhill, and Garrett Mostowski. Like what you're hearing? Subscribe on your favorite podcast app. Even better, share an episode with a friend. The Distillery is a production of Continuing Education at Princeton Theological Seminary. Thanks for listening.