S1 E7: Whisky

Show Notes

Catherine and cocktail expert Billy dive into the world of whiskey. They explore Billy's extensive experience as a bartender, the nuances of ordering drinks at a bar, and debunk some myths about whiskey. From the differences between bourbon, scotch, and whiskey to the art of distillation, this episode is packed with insights and fun anecdotes. Tune in to learn how to order like a pro and maybe even discover a new favorite drink!

🔑 Episode Keywords

Whiskey, Bourbon, Scotch, Bartending Tips, Cocktail Trends, Moonshine, Distillation Process, Alcohol Fermentation, Whiskey Aging, Bartending Experience, Whiskey Recommendations, Buffalo Trace, Cocktail Etiquette, Celebrity Crushes, Harrison Ford, Lewis Hamilton, Bar Etiquette, Whiskey Origins, Whiskey Mash, Bartender Quiz

What is Men Stuff Podcast?

The podcast on man things

Whisky
This podcast is men's the podcast on man things. But who better to learn about man stuff than a woman
Catherine: Do you have the hope diamond that I could lick? Hey, everyone, I'm Catherine, and this is men's the podcast on man things.
Billy: But wait, you're not a man.
Catherine: But who better to learn about man stuff than a woman? And today I want to learn more about whiskey. And guess what? You're going to help me. Everyone, the person joining me today is my friend Billy, and he's an expert on cocktails.
Billy: Hi, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I do love whiskey.
Billy has been head bartender for some of Wyoming's most prestigious restaurants
Catherine: My guest Billy is a bartender, but he's not just any bartender. Billy has been head bartender for some of the most prestigious restaurants in Jackson, Wyoming, and he's currently in charge of a bar for a resort in the area. Billy, tell us more about your experience in that world and with whiskey.
Billy: When I moved to Jackson, I was given the responsibility of running a really prestigious place that had, quite an immense whiskey list. And at the time, I just happened to fall into a passion of like, wanting to learn a lot about it.
Catherine: I think it takes a certain kind of person to be presented with huge whiskey list and not be completely intimidated by it. It sounds like when you were in that situation, you just dove right in.
Billy: What I primarily carried at that time was mostly bourbon. I'd say 80 plus percent was bourbon, or at least american whiskeys. So it wasn't really intimidating.
Catherine: Oh, my question was, how long have you been bartending?
Billy: I've been bartending consistently for 15 years, but in general, I started flipping burgers illegally at 13 at a racetrack. So I'm 43, so 30 years I've been in the industry.
Catherine: So we have the right person here to talk to us today. Everyone, if you can't tell, especially with me.
We're doing a late night recording session of this podcast and we both have cocktails
In honor of our topic, which is whiskey, we're doing a late night recording session of this podcast and we both have cocktails to celebrate.
Billy: I'm actually drinking whiskey, though. What is in your glass ness?
Catherine: I'm drinking tequila. The gift of the gods. so did you say you were drinking whiskey?
Billy: I currently am.
Catherine: Which one are you drinking at the moment?
Billy: I'm drinking buffalo trace. It's got the right mash bill that I think is very approachable to a lot of people. In honor of what we're doing, we.
Catherine: Want the inside scoop, we want your recommendations. We want to learn how to not embarrass ourselves when we go to order a drink. But I'm drinking tequila. Actually, I want to learn more about whiskey because I am intimidated by it and frankly, I don't have the palate for it way that I really like tequila. But I'm thinking if I have a conversation with you.
Billy Graham has a big crush on Harrison Ford. Who is your big celebrity crush
So before we get into the really meaty whiskey, Billy, do you remember how we met?
Billy: I possibly not forget. Actually, at the time, I was at, what's called the Snake river grill, Catherine had come in. It was her birthday. She was here on business. She was here for a day. And turns out we're the same age. And we went to neighboring colleges. She went to Radford. I went to Virginia Tech. So we instantly had, like, this. This great connection. And it was her birthday. She wanted to treat herself. But Kathryn ordered very well. A great box, bottle of nebbiolo, a handful of appetizers, an entree, dessert.
Catherine: Correct. I did order every single thing on the menu. Thank you for saying that tactfully. Do you remember the other thing that I was doing in your restaurant that night, aside from eating everything in sight?
Catherine: It's okay. I'll remind you. I was looking for Harrison Ford.
Billy: Oh, wow.
Catherine: Listeners, I need to level with you. I have a very big crush on Harrison Ford. And actually, I always try to wear a t shirt to my podcast that mimics the theme. And I wore my Indiana Jones Chewbacca t shirt.
Billy: Listeners, it's Harrison as Indiana doctor Jones riding a motorcycle with a sidecar. With chewy in the damn sidecar. Where'd you find that?
Catherine: The Internet. And thank you. When I received it, I received it in the mail a year ago, and I wear it a lot. I assumed that when I walked out of my door the first day, it would be a parade. And no one has ever commented on it.
Billy: You know that he calls me by my first name, correct?
Catherine: He calls you by your first name.
Billy: He has.
Catherine: You mean William, or do you mean Billy?
Billy: My mother calls me William the first time I met him. I was so busy that when I turned around, I didn't have time to be starstruck, so.
Catherine: Okay, we'll do another episode on him. Who is your big celebrity crush?
Billy: Lewis Hamilton's very high on my list of people.
Catherine: Nice.
I have a quick bartender's quiz for you. It's just five questions
All right, Billy, again, we're not getting into the topic yet. I have a quick bartender's quiz for you. It's just five questions. Number one, the biggest answer that everyone wants is, do you see us? Like, if we're in a crowded bar, all we want is some booze, and everyone is there. We're trying to get your attention. You're trying to sling some drinks. How much do you hate that?
Billy: I'm a bartender, first and foremost, and I'll use this analogy. You can teach a monkey how to make drinks. You cannot teach a monkey to not throw his feces around the room. Don't be the person that, like, gets to the bar and waves the bartender down when they don't have an order together. And then when you, like, you look for payment at a busy bar, and they're like, oh, wait,
00:05:00
Billy: I have to pay because the whole transaction slows everything else down. Like, you wanted my attention. Somebody else obviously does. You're better off asking a question, in my opinion, than the very blase or, like, empty handed question of, like, what whiskeys do you have when, like, obviously they're displayed behind me, behind the back bar. Like, if you ever question about a bottle you've never seen before, word. I'm happy to engage about it.
Catherine: Oh, my God. So I've been behind someone at any restaurant with fast food, and, okay, there's three people in front of us, and then there's two people in front of us, and then there's one, and then they go, and they haven't thought about what they're going to order in the entire five minutes. We were standing there, and I'm like, what were you doing? So for you to be running a bar full of 30 different thirsty people and someone finally gets their go and they don't know what they're doing, they can have another 20 minutes to think.
Billy: About it, and I will move on in the heartbeat. So if you're waving cash, you get precedence. It's such a quicker transaction.
Catherine: It works for everybody, too, because if I would like to drink sooner and you would like to get on to the next client, everybody wins. You also killed me with the, what whiskeys do you have? Because I malfunction as a human all the time. Who knows what comes out of my mouth. But in that case, you can't read their mind, isn't a better question. Do you have blank?
Billy: It's more so, like, well, what are you usually into?
Catherine: You do have a lot of knowledge. You know, what all of those bottles back there mean and what's in them.
Billy: if you give me a baseline to work with, I've got you all day. We have a new guest. Do you have any pappies you can't get at your liquor store in Texas? I sure am not getting it.
Catherine: So we have a range of clients, is what I'm hearing is we have the client who's like, do you have any alcohol at all that I could order? Then on the other side of the spectrum, someone's like, do you have the hope diamond that I could lick.
What is the coolest drink to order and what is the least cool drink
What is the coolest drink to order? And what is the least cool drink to order?
Billy: Coolest. Least coolest. Everything comes in waves, right? Like, everyone wants an old fashioned these days. You know what?
Catherine: It's funny that you said that, because in my list of questions that I was writing for you, I had written if drinks come in trends, and then I deleted it.
Billy: Most certainly drinks come in trends, and there's only five drinks, essentially, in the world. Everything else is mister potato head. A mojito is really a Tom Collins. And you put rum in, you put lime in instead of gin and lemon. But it's still, like, the basic build. Like, a gimlet is a daiquiri, a lemon drop martini is a sidecar. They're all the same build. Like, that's what makes, like, good bartenders. Great. You can tell me what's in it. I know how those ingredients work together. I can almost nail the specs if.
Catherine: I add sugar plus a fruit to this. And really, there's only so many mixers and bases out there. And if it works for one, why would it not work for another?
Billy: It's not necessarily always like, mister m. Potato head or plug and play, but it's a bucket of parts. Right?
Catherine: Now I understand. I thought you. And it was just an idiot.
Billy: No, no. Mister potato head is bucket of parents.
Catherine: I love it.
There are certain brunch drinks that should not be ordered after dark
And, very nicely dodged on the question, what's the coolest drink or the least cool drink? Lily has reminded us that there's really, truly only five drinks you can order.
Billy: At the end of the day. Say you live in, Joplin, Missouri, right? You never saw Campari till last year. You've never had a negroni. That shit hits for you. Rock and roll. Having a grony, right? Like, get in there.
Catherine: It doesn't matter. If you're in Boise, Idaho, you can order an aperol spritz.
Billy: Okay. Actually, I have a free. I have a few wrongs. There's certain brunch drinks that, like, if you order a bloody Mary, like, after dark, like, what is going on? Like, it's. That's just not something that my body, even thinks about leaning towards at that hour.
Catherine: I am so glad you said that.
Billy: I will make you one.
Catherine: It should not be your evening cocktail. A Bloody Mary should not be your evening cocktail.
Billy: Should not be.
Catherine: Don't order a Bloody Mary after 03:00.
Billy: P.M. if you're 45 and you order a long item, I'm like, you're on a mission.
Catherine: So. Right. That's another one. Those are very bad habits. Sorry, listeners, this is why you're listening. We're helping you. Don't do those things. Don't order a Bloody Mary after 03:00 p.m. and don't order a long island after 25. And that's pushing it.
What's the most ridiculous thing someone's ever ordered from you
So the last question I have is, what's the most ridiculous thing someone's ever ordered from you? And I'm going to tell a quick story because I've not been on that side of the bar ever. But I was at a bar, kind of a nice ish bar at an upscale hotel in Denver. And I was going to order a martini or tequila or something. And the guy behind me ordered a, grey goose and soda. But it wasn't a grey goose and soda water, which normally I drink, grey goose and martinis, so I don't mix it with anything. But he wanted coke, so he ordered grey goose and coke. And I wasn't sure if he had just panicked or maybe that was his drink, but I thought it was a very obscure combination. What? Philly is the most ridiculous thing someone's ever ordered?
Billy: I probably have a few, but the first one that comes
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Billy: to mind is very similar to, like, what you mentioned, in the panic ordering, because people panic order like, tito's and vodka. I'm like, what other vodka? When they. What they want is the Tito's and soda. And I know this damn well I know exactly what they want. The member Tito's comes out of their mouth like, y'all got Tito's? Yes, everybody does. But they're like, tito's in vodka. I'm like, I know what Tito's is, but what other vodka would you like? so they panic order bailey's and orange juice. Bailey's and orange juice. Like, my brain is still going there. Like, how'd you think of that? That is absurd. I might actually walk off the job if I were to see that ticket.
Catherine: If they were separate, totally fine, totally survival mode, I could order a shot of Bailey's and a shot of orange juice separately and was at breakfast brunch mixed together. Oh, I would love to see. Maybe you could put it in a nice champagne flute, like a mimosa.
Billy: I'm not sure if you can see my face at the moment, but, like.
Catherine: A momo's ill in college at Radford, we could not afford Bailey's, and so we bought. It was called Ryan's cream. It was called Ryan's cream.
Billy: I would love to see their marketing campaign.
Catherine: It was subtle.
What is the difference between whiskey, bourbon, and scotch
We're an hour into recording. Should we start talking about whiskey now? Billy, since you're the expert, can you please take a few minutes and explain to me what is the difference between whiskey, bourbon, and scotch?
Billy: Most whiskeys are starting the same. You know, you're using a source of sugar. With whiskey, it'll be some sort of grain, corn, barley, rye, etcetera. But you're basically making beer out of that. You're making a mash, partially fermented grain. You're extracting those sugars and turning it in alcohol with introduction to yeast, et cetera. And then where whiskeys diverge is what grain they use, how they're aged, and how they're distilled. So, we'll start with american whiskey. Bourbon specifically has to be made with 51% corn. Your mash, Bill, outside of that, can vary any way you'd like it to irish whiskey, you're going to be using barley and typically using pot stills, which is a different style of still used in distillation and aged, where scottish whiskey is using barley, but you're malting it. But essentially, they're all the same. You're looking at distilling beer, and then aging is essentially like the breakdown.
Catherine: Truly, alcohol all starts the same. And for the sake of this part of the conversation, whiskey is alcohol made from a grain of some kind, whether it's barley, corn, wheat, and then you have bourbon, which has requirements, has to be 51% corn. And then, for my research, and you touched on this, I read that scotch was 100% type of one grain, and I was hoping you could clarify it.
Billy: So, single malt scotches, when they say single malt, so they're using one distillation for that bottling. So hence it's a single malt doers, per se. Johnny Walker. Right. There's probably 40 different single moths, but that's why they call them blended whiskeys. So single moths are coming from one single distillation versus being blended.
Catherine: That's super helpful. And for everyone listening, I just know this from my research. So I got a little cheat sheet. Malting is the process because grains are made up of sugar, but the sugars aren't readily available to be broken down and turned into alcohol. The malting process, and Billy has said mash a couple times. That is the process of preparing the grain in advance of that fermentation to make it as easy as possible to turn to alcohol.
Billy: Yeast eats sugar, and, for lack of better nomenclature, poops out alcohol.
Catherine: Yes.
There's a discrepancy over whether Scotland or Ireland invented whiskey
So that brings me to my next point. I was researching the origins of whiskey, and what I can find is that whiskey was invented in the early one thousands. But there's a little bit of a discrepancy. If Scotland or Ireland was the one that invented it. We have two stories here. Both of them involve monks. The irish story says monks were using distillation techniques to make medicines. That was the first whiskey. The scottish story says that they were trying to make something similar to wine, but all they had was grain, so they just tried distilling that instead. Either way, somehow they both kind of came to market at the same time. Who do you think? Do you have an opinion here?
Billy: So it's going to stay within, like, the educated class, which was probably the priesthood at the time. So I'm not going to touch on that, because honestly, like, who knows, right? Like, it was. Honestly, at the end of the day, it was probably pretty similar timing. Not knowing things is okay sometimes.
Catherine: They probably invented it, and then they normally took notes every day, as you did back then. They took monk's log, but they got too wasted. You know, six months later, we're like, we should write this down. We found the most amazing thing.
Billy: Irish is my favorite. I love irish whiskey.
Catherine: Oh, he went there. You hear that?
Billy: I did. I, did go.
Catherine: It's okay. I don't have any listeners in Scotland.
Billy: I did go there.
Catherine: Bourbon is
00:15:00
Catherine: exclusively made in the United States according to the rules. Scotch is exclusively made in Scotland according to the rules. So we have one of those exclusive regional alcohols, and the only ones that I could think of aside from that were champagne and Malort.
Billy: Oh, Malort, I'm so happy you went there.
Catherine: But, oh, my lord, Malort.
Billy: I love Malort.
Catherine: Actually, you have terrible taste.
Billy: It's just aqua beet aged in Wormwood barrels. Really. At the end of the day, they're.
Catherine: Horrible and should be thrown away at the end of the day.
Billy: Same. Same thing with, like, Chicago style pizza. That being said, I don't need your casserole.
Moonshine is typically produced in small batches in homemade stills
Catherine: So, Billy, there's a black sheep of the whiskey family that we have not talked about, about yet. Bourbon and Scotch are considered high end, affluent drinks, and this whiskey does not have that reputation. Call the dukes of Hazzard, because we're talking about moonshine, baby.
Billy: Oh.
Catherine: So for everyone listening, moonshine is just unaged whiskey. And while it fits in with the whiskey family, I personally don't think it has that high end reputation that the others do. for me, it fits in about as well as happy Gilmore fits in on the pro golf tour. However, I would like to read you this quote, Billy. Quote. It's typically produced in small batches in homemade stills, and is considered to be a very high quality spirit. What do you think about that?
Billy: Moonshine is produced in small batches because it's like, it's backwoods stuff. You know, at the end of day, like, you're basically, like, coming out with a product that's like Everclear, right? You're talking about, like 100%, like, ringing alcohol. Like, if cars were built differently these days, you could run a vehicle off that stuff. like city buses, everything, airplanes, all that, you know, like, if you're watching videos of, like, people, like, working with, like, moonshine or say, mezcal, like, in the back woods, because mezcal is really just the moonshine of Mexico, right? They're making it with, like, no flip flops on. It's like, out there in the woods. Like, it's the same. Like, it's. I love that you said beautiful. It's absolutely.
Catherine: I love. I love that you said with no flip flops on, as if that makes a difference. As, ah. If not having flip flops on makes it.
Billy: And we're talking, like, grain alcohol, no dilution, no aging. It's actually a really intriguing spirit because you're tasting exactly what they expected. It's what came off distill and that distillers creative ability and his talent.
Catherine: it's a very natural, authentic, basic way of creating alcohol. I did the exact same logical fallacy that you did and calling it a grain alcohol because we've established earlier in this podcast that whiskey is alcohol made from grain. That's what it is. That's a definition. And I was so inclined to call moonshine grain alcohol, but not call whiskey grain alcohol when it's the same thing. And I was really relieved to hear you do that, too. So the, small batch is very celebrated because you appreciate that attention to detail and you appreciate the process. People want that. They don't feel that mass produced alcohol, like Jack Daniels has that much attention to it. So I think that this alcohol, like, has a reputation to break because, like, look, could you imagine if James Bond had apple pie moonshine as his signature drink and he was reasonable?
Billy: That's going to change the context.
Catherine: Any of them. If you imagine Sean Connery or Daniel Craig in Casino Royale with a mason jar of apple pie moonshine, is he. He's less cool.
Billy: This son of a bitch didn't know what he was doing. He made it in his bathtub.
Catherine: Also, the explosions that aren't doing moonshine any favors?
Billy: No. Doesn't behoove like your hoa by any stretch.
Catherine: And another thing that I think doesn't do moonshine any service is that there's a thousand flavors. You know, banana and apple and creme brulee and vanilla apple pie and caramel. I don't know. There's a million.
Billy: And the consumers like those gimmicks. Got them peanut butter, whiskey, ruball. Like that shit. Sells like wildfire.
Catherine: I like churros, and I like vodka. So I'm gonna like churro vodka.
Billy: I love churro.
Catherine: You too. You are so far from, the mexican border in Wyoming. I'm very sad for you.
Billy: No, I'm not. Most of my friends are mexican. I'm good homegirl.
Catherine: Okay, you're still physically far from the mexican border.
Billy: I break it down, that's a different conversation. You're not that much closer.
Catherine: Sweetheart, I'm an eight hour drive closer.
Billy: An eight hour drive based off roads. If I could fly directly to your house, it'd be like 200 miles.
Catherine: Okay, your point has been pulverized and then deep fried and then covered in syrup and honey. This just end. Jackson, Wyoming is not far from Mexico.
Billy: Mexico does not even get close to the equator. We're going to
00:20:00
Billy: edit this out, obviously, but this is a fun fact. Don't even touch the tropics.
Catherine: Okay, mister? I see things as a map.
Billy: I do. I love maps.
Catherine: You should look at one.
Billy: I should. Pensacola, Florida, and like southeast Oregon are only 1 hour apart. Let's get, let's have a shot and we'll get back on track and reset.
Catherine: Perfect. Mine was caramel flavored Smirnoff, but I wish it was churro.
Billy says whiskey is made by three steps: Mash, fermentation and distillation
So, Billy, now that we've talked about the differences between scotch and bourbon and whiskey, and we've learned that they're all made by distilling grain. Very simply, if you want alcohol, you need two main ingredients, yeast and sugar. And what differentiates liquors is what they use to get those sugars. For example, wine uses grapes, tequila uses agave. Vodka uses potatoes sometimes, and whiskey uses grapes. I have googled and found the recipe to make whiskey. Three steps. Mash, fermentation, distillation, MFD.
Catherine: Motherfucking doing it. Let's go through step by step what each one means. The first step in the journey to booze is mash. this process is going to break down the starch before the brewing process and makes the sugars more readily available for the yeast to munch down on. Because the yeast, eats up the sugars and poots out the alcohol, as we determined earlier, once we've gotten the sugars all primed and ready is fermentation. Fermentation is where yeast breaks down the sugar to produce alcohol. The yeast enzymes eat up the sugar, and the expelled result is alcohol. Sweet, glorious, beautiful alcohol.
Billy: Life, finds a way.
Catherine: Okay, so the last part of the alcohol process, which I use this as a common term, and I think that a lot of people don't understand exactly what it means, because we just use distillation as a verb. But truly, what does that mean? After the mash and after the fermentation, alcohol has been produced, but the end result is very diluted. So what distillation means is they boil the fermented liquor and the vapors that contain alcohol separate from everything else. And the distance, the installation process captures those alcohol vapors, and then they allow them to turn back into liquid, which is a much more highly concentrated version than what they previously had, and it's more pure. So this distillation process is incredibly important. That's where we get the potency. Aging whiskey imparts different flavor characteristics. I would love to be able to go to a bar and order the most aged whiskey I can find, because I assume that one's the best. But since my last name is not Benz or Bezos, what can we look for? If we're trying to order a liquor, how do we navigate that?
Billy: Ah, thinking about this barrels breathing, number one. So when it's hot, it's expanding, it's sucking that whiskey into the barrel. As it cools through that diurnal shift, it's pushing that whiskey back into the barrel with whatever it pulled with it. It's this beautiful process. It's like an inhalation exhalation. American whiskeys, if they're aged in a place that's seeing those extremes, twelve to 13 years is my magic window for me. I think after that, it starts to pick up too much wood.
Catherine: Okay.
Billy: It just tastes like you're licking a.
Catherine: Tree, which is not like licking a hope diamond.
Billy: Moving forward from that, now, let's look at Scotland. Ireland. Like, I'm not sure who's been there that's listening, but the weather's pretty lousy. Well, no, those inhales and exhales are now, like, not as extreme. It's not seeing those differences in temperature gradients. It is allowing those bowels to breathe as rapidly. So it's a matter of the environment, which is age and what the temperature gradients are. So now, when you got a 50 year, say, single malt. Someone's, like, checking in on it. Like they're curating it. So from twelve to 13 years on, american whiskey, scottish whiskey, I love being in the 18 to 25 ballpark. Same with irish whiskey like that. Like, 18 to 25 is pretty stellar. There's so much in the market, and obviously, like, all the brands that are out there that are staples, like Basil Hayden's, like, Woodford makers, like, they're tried and true for a reason. Consistency is one of the hardest things in this world to achieve. And for folks that are nailing it, hats off all day.
Catherine: Billy, do you like peanut butter whiskey?
Billy: I love peanut butter and jelly peanut butter whiskey. I don't have time for it.
Catherine: Billy,
00:25:00
Catherine: thank you so much for your insight today. It has been so much fun learning about what I should and should not do at the bar, first of all. and then also your very deep insight into whiskey and liquor in general has been really amazing. I feel a lot more confident ordering whiskey at a bar, and, I'm kind of excited to give it a try. Maybe I'll give tequila a little backseat and go for whiskey next time. I'm not so intimidated now.
Billy: Just don't be gun shy. If you have questions to ask, like, if you got questions, ask, like, your bartender. If they're good at what they do. Should be elated to have someone that's actually thoroughly interested.
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