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We created Juicy Bits because we wanted to continue the conversations that we start out on the trail and on the chair lift. Hosted by our CEO Jen Gurecki and Ambassador Jillian Raymond, they talk candidly about everything from dude soup, to sex, to politics, to equity in the outdoors. We occasionally (read: frequently) drop F-bombs, interview some of the most interesting people in the outdoors and beyond, and say things that many of us think but don’t feel comfortable saying out loud. If you are easily offended or looking for something that is G Rated, this is not the podcast for you. But if you love truth-telling and irreverence, get ready to laugh, cry, and maybe pee your pants a little bit.
Speaker 1 0:33
Hello and welcome. I'm Julian Raymond, the CO creator of Juicy Bits and a Coalition Snow ambassador.
Speaker 2 0:39
And I'm Jen Gurecki, your co host and the CEO of coalition snow.
Speaker 1 0:43
For those of you who are new, get ready to laugh, cry, and maybe pee your pants a little
Speaker 2 0:48
juicy bits is about taking the conversations that we start on the chairlift and at the trailhead, and bringing them to you to explore alternative narratives that challenge the status quo about what it means to be a modern woman in the outdoors.
Speaker 1 1:01
Grab your helmet, because sometimes it's a bumpy ride. FYI, friends, this podcast is for mature audiences. So you've been warned, let's get to work and use the patriarchy. I don't know.
Speaker 2 1:16
Julian, I don't really know the best way to start this episode, given that what we were just discussing off air was like, how do we want to start talking about the word cunt? I mean, that's like, how, how do you get into talking about how you just throw the word cunt around multiple times, like I did, in my own shop to two adults who are strangers? I mean, there's a whole story behind it. That's what we're here to talk about. But I mean, can't it just like rolls off? Like, can't like it's one of those words?
Speaker 1 1:56
I, I think can't is almost I think it does have to do a little bit with context. But I don't I don't throw it out. I don't use it that often. I may. This might be the first time I've said cunt this calendar year. I don't know if I say
Speaker 2 2:16
Yeah, it's interesting. So I spend a lot of time with people from the UK because of my, of the work that I do in Kenya was always Nisha, and people say can't like it's no big deal. And I know I understand that context, so I don't take offense to it. Also, some of us might remember way back in the day when Eve Ensler first came out with the Vagina Monologues, and she one of her monologues was cunt, and it was about reclaiming the word. So I personally don't it doesn't make me cringe. But I understand the power of the word and I understand how it makes other people feel, which is exactly why I chose to use it multiple times. A few weeks ago.
Speaker 1 2:57
Yeah, like if we were having if we were just like playing around. And I was like, Oh, you're such a fucking cunt. Like, what? In that context? I think it's about the intent, the impact and the use of the word but I want to hear in your situation this was used. Well, let me hear it. I want to I want to understand how Kant was just such a part of robots.
Speaker 2 3:23
How it just rolls off the tongue so easily. Well, okay, so a little background for our listeners, in case you don't know, coalition snow opened up a retail store in Reno in the Reno public market back in November. So we have this beautiful brick and mortar store. And I am in there a couple times a week. And a few weeks ago, I was in there. And I there was a couple an older couple by older I mean, like, over 60, right. And they the the man in particular, was looking at our skis. And so we were talking about skis, and then he and we were probably talking about skis for about five minutes. And then he was talking about how he wanted to how he likes to try skis. And I said, Oh, well we have a demo day at Palisades tomorrow. And again, for our listeners who maybe don't know Palisades is the resort in Lake Tahoe, that is the new name it was renamed because the original name was basically like a racist, sexist, misogynistic slur against indigenous women. So the the name has been changed and the name actually is Palisades, and it has actually created quite a bit of debate and not everybody is pleased with it. I clearly am very happy about the name change and happy to use the name Palisades anyways, I say, Oh, we have a demo day at Palisades tomorrow. And he and his wife looked at me and they go, Oh, we don't we don't call it that. And so Uh, so that was one of these moments where I was like, Well, I have some choices here, I can either let it go. Or I can ask them why they feel that way. I can argue with that, like, there's so many things that you can do. But I knew for me that I feel really strongly about, you know, as a, as a middle class, educated, straight presenting white woman, I'm going to use that power and privilege. And so this was an opportunity to have a conversation with people who needed to understand why their language and their perspective around this is offensive. And so being who I am, you know, they sort of, you know, we don't use that name, we're not doing it. And I said, oh, so, do you like to use the word cunt? And they looked at me, and I was like, Do you like the word cunt? And they didn't know what to make of it. And I said, Well, I'm asking you that. Because when you use that term, the you know, the former name of the of the ski resort. That's essentially what you're saying like that the word is a derogatory term against indigenous women that is sexual in nature. And I said, So do you feel comfortable using that word? And their response was, Well, we didn't know that. That's what it meant. And I said, Well, why do you think they changed the name? And so this, these were these fascinating parts, right? Like, you feel so strongly that you're going to argue with me, I am the owner of a ski show, you're gonna argue with me about the use of the name, but you don't even know why it's being changed, like, do your fucking homework. So then I said, Well, you know, as, as a woman, I don't particularly care for the word cunt. And I certainly wouldn't want to be called cunt. And so now that you know that that word is essentially equivalent to calling women cunt. You think that you'll use the word cunt You will you continue to use it. And I just kept saying it. And they were just like, they just could not even wrap their heads around what was going on? And then the the man says to me, Well, clearly, you're very passionate about this. And I said, Oh, no, we're not. Yeah, I said, Oh, no, no, I'm not passionate about this. This is actually the work that we do here. This is the work that my business has been involved in, which is making the outdoors more inclusive place, a place for everyone to feel welcome. And so the way that we do that is around our language. And if you knew that, by simply changing one word, would dramatically improve someone else's well being their their emotional and arguably physical well being. When particularly when you think about the way that we use words, as tools to dehumanize people, so then we can further physically harm them. I said to him, like, why wouldn't? Why wouldn't you just change your language? What an incredible place like a incredible position of power to know that your language has like, is that powerful that you would just be able to change it and make someone else's life better? That's, that's what we do here. That's what we're doing. That's what I'm asking you to do. And then they told me, then they said, Well, we hope you have a very nice day, and they left the shop. So they did not think that the their time in my shop was going to go like that. And also, they were so comfortable with challenging me on the use of of the name Palisades. That makes you wonder like, what other conversations have they had? What have they gotten away with? Like, clearly no one's challenged that because they had no problem with arguing with me, and that was that well, you fuck around, you find out Oh, guess you missed the memo. You're in Jim Gurecki shot, we're fucking going there. So I just said comment a million times. Now. I know that my approach isn't necessarily the approach that everyone take. Also, there's all different scenarios in which people don't use the word Palisades and doesn't necessarily require you to immediately jump to just, you know, saying can't 20 times in five minutes. And you've had some similar experience, like we all have these experiences, on the chairlift in the lift line chatting with friends, but you you also have had, you've dealt with this this winter, as well.
Speaker 1 9:34
Well, I have one of the things I appreciate, though, that you touched on that makes me think in this scenario, right? Where these people you feel like you have not maybe been challenged or what what other scenarios have they just kind of continued to throw out their word in a flippant way and just sort of in this ownership way of like, well, we don't have to do that. I don't have to do that. You're reeking of the sense of privilege. And I think when they're when that gets validated by those other people around them, that's also what makes these kind of gross because you don't have any room for growth in the industry. And within those conversations in circles, because everyone's like, Yeah, I'm totally with you like, I'm going to, I'm not going to say palisade. And I'm going to keep saying the S word. And then going back to not understanding the reasonings behind. So one of the things that happened to me this season, so I spent a lot of time at Palisades I happen to be there this afternoon, my little one is on ski team, I teach yoga in the valley. And prior to them landing on Palisades, when the conversation first came up, I was very, very focused on using the word valley, a Olympic Valley, and just starting to help shift it in my own personal circles, right thinking about this is how we do the work. This is how we interact. And I would appreciate when people would ask me why. And then I could offer up what, you know, again, the understanding I have of it, the work that's rooted in what I do as an educator, and also to your point of, it's not something to be passionate about, or a fucking hobby, it's like we want the, I want to be in the lift line with people that feel safe to be there. And again, that's physical and emotional. And one of the things about that is, I've run into certain scenarios. And I feel like for all of our listeners, right now, when you're like, alright, well, I want to be the person that when I hear that, how do I respond? What do I say, and I've had some that have felt really aggressive and really unsafe. And I also think that's very powerful language is powerful. But as a cisgendered, white female, there are some times where I do feel levels of unsafety in my life, but for the most part, that's not a daily lived experience. And so it's like that choice, right? Do you put yourself in a scenario where literally like, My blood is boiling like my blood pressure has been up on that mountain this season? Several times. And not because of pushing myself to like adrenaline rock and and to move and skiing in a way that has that it's more based on interactions with other humans. One, one thing I do really appreciate is when I'll when I hear the S word come out of someone's mouth, and then I say, Oh, wait, did you mean Palisades? And they're like, thank you. I'm really sorry. I'm working on shifting and I'm like, What a fucking concept. Look at us in a community doing some work. And to this dude in your fucking shop. This is what happens when people when they want to tell me that they don't know why. Or they think it was some sort of like PR thing associated with the gondola. And then like, if you took a fraction of the time that you spent on whether open snow or palisade social media, bitching about fucking parking, looking at weather tracking your bird, and watched what that entity has done to share the information around the name change and what they offer and having Washoe elders take you off the tram to talk about the nature of their relationship with that valley, there are what I would consider very mainstream and very conventional outlets that have made that information available to the public on
Speaker 2 12:58
Google, like so. It's also called Google. So I'm sure you're like, Okay, Boomer, I know you have I know, you know how to fucking Google things. If you just Google like the meaning of the meaning of the word, or like, why is this why is the word bad? Like the most basic Google search will tell you? Why we no longer use that word. Yeah. So Google's also a thing. And if that's all yeah, go go Google it. Google is your friend. And but to your point, yes, sometimes people don't use the word. Don't use the name Palisades. And I've been in scenarios where I just say, Yeah, this the same thing, Palisades and people go, Oh, yeah. I don't throw the word count out every single time I hear someone not use policies, like there are these different levels. And sometimes people do out of habit, or what you know, they don't, they don't use the correct name. And that is an opportunity to welcome people in with kindness and a reminder, and then it could, it could spur a really fantastic conversation around the importance of the name change. It's just when you want to argue that it's on that it's on.
Speaker 1 14:13
Oh, my, one of my, I don't want to say it was my favorite because it was one of the more toxic ones. But I happened to be riding the lift at a different mountain, where I got on the lift and the person next to me and I should have known I could like smell their booze, right? The booze was just like, wafting off of them towards me, and I was like, Hey, have a great skied, you know, hope you're having fun, and I'm just kinda like, minding my own business. And they start the other humans on the show starts talking and they start throwing around the S word. And I was like, hey, just you know, like in our community, that's definitely a dirty word. We're we're really working on changing it. We're shifting it just imagine it's like you're saying fucking whore every time you say it, and they look at me and they're like, You're a fucking whore. And I was like, Okay, now I'm on the lift and I I have nowhere to go. Okay, Julian I got you're on the lift with people that are knee variated. And you're thinking you're going to like maybe have a friendly conversation again, from like a community standpoint. And so thankfully, it was a short lift, and we get up at the top, and they start skiing after me, calling me fucking whore. So I ski away as fast as I can. Then when I get back in the lift line, and I'm ahead of them, they start yelling the S word at the top of their lungs. So this was a scenario where I was feeling like, okay, okay, you know, alcohol can create aggression, right? And I was like, you know, some people, they just the movie they smelt could have been from last night, who knows, but this scenario of like, wanting to have the thoughtful conversation, and it to me feeling like the right setting, we're out in the mountain, and this is kind of in our community and to all of our responsibilities. It was ugly, and I was actually I was just very, I just skied away. I was like, Holy, Holy fucking shit. Yeah, that's probably the worst thing you could
Speaker 2 15:57
have done. Like, I would have done a few things I probably would have been like, that's not what your mom said last night, but I probably would have made it worse. But I probably would have. I mean, it would have been hard, like, cuz that's funny. Um, I probably would have gotten out my phone and just started recording them. And I probably would have said, like, if you take this a step further, I'm calling 911. Like, I just would like I would have just like, I'm going to call them like, you are now threatening me. And I would have started filming them. But that is particularly like, maybe not on the lift. But like, if they like skiing after that.
Speaker 1 16:33
I was much faster than them and was able to, like, safely execute what I needed to. But it did have me think one I don't want to be quiet when I hear it. But then also like, in terms of personal safety and certain scenarios, what does it what does it look like when you're met with really, you know, an intensity like I have a little bit of a friendship right now that's a that's a little rocky with a dear human that I really respect and care for that has lived in Olympic Valley for a very long time. And I broach the conversation with them more so like, how does it how is it felt like in the community and the movement, like to see them have changed the road signs and names and just really good movement around? Again, it being like, this is where I where this lands? For me, Jen is one of those fucking non negotiables where I'm like, Yeah, we're, I'm not to beat you. And, yeah,
Speaker 2 17:25
to me, it's not it's not even debatable, but it's like, personal safety is definitely an issue. And I and neither one of us would advocate that someone put themselves in an unsafe situation. But that that is the power and privilege that goes along with being white and CES and being part also of ski culture, like we've we look, we fit we fit, right. And that's exactly why we do need to speak up because we are fundamentally safer, then an indigenous woman, then a woman of color, then you know, then then then then then Lists List it. And so while what happened to you was certainly scary. Also, you didn't get hurt, and they didn't, you know, like, it didn't happen. And isn't that the case so many times where men track they threaten us, and they want us to be afraid so that we stop. But ultimately, they may not go there, particularly in a public setting like that. So it's this tricky thing right of you, you absolutely need to say something, and then also ensure that you're safe. At the same time, but we we have a much different level of safety than than others. Much better.
Speaker 1 18:38
Yeah. And I think that silence is just the, you know, again, back to the privilege and the complicity of it. And, you know, I do think there's Oh, there's always risk in speaking out. And I think I appreciate how you put it because in that sense, that's really what those that can be super aggressive and oppressive one it's like, oh, just you know, just scare with a couple times and they'll be quiet other stop saying or they'll stop pushing. And it's like this again, this isn't really a sauna for debate. It's one of those movements, you could maybe debate like, oh, I don't know why they picked a navy and orange, like fine if you really have a strong feeling about that. But I also
Unknown Speaker 19:13
I have I've talked about that I ate orange
Speaker 1 19:18
I'm you're totally entitled to have an opinion about that. You know, I do like the you know, the all the teams and all the colors. They stand out really great. It's very classy. It's very weird. But I'm like, that's fine. That's a color palette. But it's, it's, again, it's so hard to try to think in a sense of someone that has less information or less access to it. And that's my encounters have been the ones that are more positive or they're like I want I want to understand it. That's really interesting. I didn't know that. Oh my god. I didn't know and that it as a history has a history teacher and as someone who works with youth it is so fascinating to move indigenous culture out of a fucking pack. os 10s textbook, and that's what is sadly sold and that narrative a lot is presented. And students are like, well back then. And they and I'm like this is what is it? I'm so sorry that this is what you've been told to now let's, let's figure out, you know, let's unpack some truths here. And understand legacies of colonization and colonizer settler mentality. And I think what this example really shows is that constant, this sense of like, it's mine, I conquered it, I named it it's ours, like some of the idea of like, that's my, yeah,
Speaker 2 20:36
you're on unceded indigenous land and, and you literally like you literally, number one, you don't own it, it's private property. And you don't actually own it. Number one, number two, like it's unseeded, like, there's a myth. There's so many things. And I mean, definitely, like the conversations where people are curious, and they want to learn, those are the conversations to engage in, you will tell pretty quickly, like, either it's just gonna, you'll correct them and you'll move on, or people are curious, and you have a lovely conversation, or it gets hectic, and you have to deal with it. What I will say, though, is that I think the majority, the majority of the time, it doesn't get hectic, right, like the majority of the time you either move on, or there is a conversation about it, where you're not again, like fearful for your physical safety. But I do feel like despite that, despite the fact that your physical safety will remain intact. A lot of people don't, don't use don't correct people or don't bring, bring it up, don't acknowledge the fact that the name has been changed. And I think that has more to do with being taught that we're meant meant to keep peace, and that we're meant to not, not challenge others and not wanting other people to think poorly about us. But that like that mentality is what upholds white supremacy, that the niceness around it like, this would be a time in which you not being nice, is exactly what you should be doing. Because if you approach these situations nicely, then you are reinforcing white supremacy and and that is problematic. There's also an opportunity to reframe what is nice, whose side of nice Are you on? So if there if there was a group of Indigenous women standing there, who would you be nice to I'm also air quoting right now, who would you be nice to like? Who are you trying to protect? Our? Couldn't you argue that by using the name Palisades and encouraging others to do so. And speaking to the truth of the name change? Aren't you actually being nice to all indigenous women? And then indigenous communities and then us as a global community? Isn't that fundamentally nicer than maintaining a language that like language that has been used to dehumanize people so that then they could steal and murder and like, what is like, what is this concept of niceness that we're trying to uphold?
Speaker 1 23:20
The thing is, I like that reframing, I think there are some people that are fucking assholes, and they have no problem holding white supremacy, and they are fucking pieces of shit. And the conversation, you know, is, is not healthy to be had there because they are completely protected and completely just smothered in their white supremacy and their power and privilege. And they don't want to shake, you know, an ounce of it away. Because there's this idea that there's this finite power of it or that you you change the name and all of a sudden, you what you you you become less of a person or I don't know, I do think that that to me is kind of like the the most toxic layer of it. But that's where the the very nature of what I would consider like kind of the grassroots and all of all the footwork and all of that is what over time combat that bigger messaging because it's so rare, because here's the thing fine, you you're not going to support the name that you're you're going to decide to not buy an icon pack, not I can pass and ski there, that's fine. What is very different is the conversation that's had in the community when it's been completely embraced. And this is not something that was like a snowball effect of racial justice movements around the globe and the police brutality and Black Lives Matter. This has been a conversation and from the Washoe for decades and decades. And so I think that's another thing that people lose sight of is this is not just like contemporary work or like a little you know, bandwagon to hop on. This is like the constant pressure and the constant movement in communities. And when we can see it in a mountain community we have so much work to do, because there's a lot of economic and social disparities and challenges in so many mountain communities but this It's like, what a fucking opportunity. And it goes back to your point of it and an exercise in language is power. And having that power in, in your like, the smallest way to contribute. And it's not small because it's big. But it is literally in terms of a shifting of language.
Unknown Speaker 25:18
Yeah. That's it. That's all it is. We're just shifting or language. There's
Speaker 2 25:23
so much power in that. I personally, I know you feel, I would love to hear from our listeners, if you have had experiences with challenging people, or supporting people are just having conversations in and around the name change of Palisades. We would love to hear from you. Please send us your stories, your rants, your raves, at juicy bits at coalition snow.com. And just remember that the work that we do to make the outdoors more equitable and to make the world more equitable requires us to enter into difficult conversations in difficult situations, it's not going to always feel good and it's not always going to be easy. And that's part of the work. That's what we have committed to do. And so you have to be you have to be prepared to be uncomfortable and to take risks, and to put yourself out there and to be willing to lose a little bit because if if we don't do that, who who will do it. Who will do it.
Speaker 1 26:31
For us, thank you, Jen, I let's get together a Palisades and do some shredding soon, my friend. Yes.
Speaker 2 26:37
We'll do that since we're going to be skiing through through July. Yes. Winter. All right, everyone. Thanks. Thanks for listening in to this episode. Make sure that you send us your stories at juicy bits out polish and snow and we will talk to you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai