Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The New Mom Podcast is a Christian motherhood podcast for women navigating pregnancy, postpartum, and early motherhood.
Whether you're a first-time mom, expecting, or in the middle of sleepless nights, this show offers real, honest conversations about motherhood, marriage, identity, and faith. We talk about birth stories, postpartum recovery, relationships, mental health, and trusting God through every stage of motherhood. If you're looking for encouragement, practical advice, and a reminder that you're not alone—this podcast is for you.
Our prayer is that New Mom leaves you feeling seen, strengthened, and a little more equipped for the beautiful calling of motherhood!
New episodes weekly.
Welcome back to New Mom. I'm really looking forward to this conversation with my guest, Nicole Zasowski. Think you guys will love her. She is a family and marriage therapist. She's an author.
Carrie:She has two amazing books and a Bible study. And she also is a mom of four. Her oldest is 10 and her youngest is four months old. A little boy she just welcomed a few months ago. So she has, quite the age range working and lots of wisdom to share because of it.
Carrie:And Nicole is also very generous to share her story of miscarriage. That is a part of her story. And the miscarriages she walked through are talked about a lot in the books that she wrote as well. I do just want to give a heads up if that's a sensitive topic for you or, just a tender spot in your heart. We do cover that topic.
Carrie:She shares really beautifully, about the way they've walked through that as a family and how they talk to their kids today about, their siblings that are in heaven. So I pray this conversation blesses you and that you love Nicole as much as I enjoyed having her on. Well, Nicole, thank you for being here. Welcome to New Mom.
Nicole:Thank you for having me. This is so fun to meet you face to face.
Carrie:I know. I feel like we've been Instagram friends for so long. Like, I I I read your book, which I have right here, by the way. Not to like just but I I've read this so many times. Like, you can't even tell, but like the pen that like, the underlines, the like crinkled pages, it's like one of my most read books.
Carrie:But I read that. It's true. It's a great book. What if it's wonderful? And I read it back in 2021 2022 because I read it the year I got married.
Carrie:And anyway, that's when I started following you on Instagram and have always followed your beautiful family. And, it's just been so fun to follow you guys as your family grows and just to cheer you on. And honestly, after reading this book and knowing more of your story with motherhood, I feel like every time I see so cool that your book is about celebration because every time I see your family grow or I just see you have on your social so much gratitude for the simple things with family. And it's like, I get to celebrate from afar as like a sister in Christ and a fan, God, you're because so you've shared your story. So honestly, yeah, it's just so good to finally get to like talk face to face and yeah, I've been a fan for a while.
Carrie:Thanks for coming
Nicole:Likewise. Likewise. Yeah.
Carrie:You're great. Well, like I said, What If It's Wonderful? Such a good book and I do wanna get into that. But, before we do anything, maybe just like give us your bio, as you know, as a mom, professional, as an author, all the things that you're you're doing, like just kind of give a little Nicole bio.
Nicole:Sure. Yes, I am a wife and mom, a a grateful mom of four beautiful children, 10, six, five, and newborn. So it's funny. My oldest got braces, like, maybe two weeks before I gave birth to my fourth. And I was like, this is a great way of describing my age span, braces to breastfeeding, and everything in between.
Nicole:So we are in the thick of it in lots of ways. But, again, I'm I'm really grateful, and I have a story that keeps me in that place of gratitude every day. So and I know we'll get into that that piece as well. We have five angel babies in heaven that we lost in miscarriage. And so that's been a huge part of our story as well.
Nicole:But I am also a marriage and family therapist that informs a lot of my writing that you see online and in my books. And I have written two trade books and one bible study from lost to found, what if it's wonderful, which is the one you just held up. And then a bible study that is not a companion bible study, but it I would say it continues the conversation in what if it's wonderful, and that is called daring joy. So in the last decade, that's what's taken up most of my time.
Carrie:You sound pretty busy. That's you got a lot of good things going on there. I love that. Daring joy. Yeah.
Carrie:I've seen a little bit of that on your socials and I was wanted to to kinda ask you about that because it seems like it's thematic, which I think I think it's so cool that your your page and your story. And like I said, I haven't read your first book, but what I've read with What If It's Wonderful celebration is such a thing the Lord has clearly put on your heart to share and to talk about and enjoy like coming from that. I guess before we get into too much, I wanna know well, I wanna know what it's like being a mom of four right now and how you're adjusting to that fourth baby. And then I kinda wanna dive more into your story that you shared about just the whole journey to get to these four. But just going to the basics, like what is it like right now in the newborn trenches?
Carrie:How old is Benjamin?
Nicole:Benjamin will be four months at the end of this week.
Carrie:So he's
Nicole:still little. Still very little. And my goodness, he understood the assignment as a fourth child. He is so easy. I mean, I feel I kinda feel like when you ask me that question, I'm cheating a little bit because he is so easy.
Nicole:Never I never had a hard baby. I I hate I hate the phrasing of of good baby and, you know, they're all good. But I never had a challenging baby. But now I'm looking at the other three, and I'm saying, y'all weren't easy either. Child.
Nicole:Yeah. Never heard
Carrie:of a lot.
Nicole:And he Oh, that's cute. He might wake up and have his debut as well. But, so far, he is, very easygoing. And my others are still in school. You know, we're up in the greater New York City area, so school won't get out till mid June.
Nicole:I know you guys down south, it's it's happening sooner.
Carrie:Soon.
Nicole:Yeah. So I've also had this really sweet season of, you know, just him and I during the school day and then all of us in the evenings. And, you know, people ask me a lot about balance, and I gave up balance a long time ago. I prefer the concept of congruence. I was at a conference probably a decade ago, and I'm a mom a working mom shared that.
Nicole:And that really resonated with me. And to me, what that means is, does the way that I'm spending my time align with my values, first of all, and my my the needs of the season. And season is very key there because it changes. So my husband started a new job the the week Benjamin was born. And so we're kinda figuring out what does congruence look like for us, but it's it's meant a little bit more time as mom.
Nicole:Not that I'm never not mom, but a little bit more time being home and still doing therapy and writing, but just going a little slower there these days.
Carrie:Yeah. That's so good. That makes a lot of sense. And how are your little ones adjusting to a baby? Because you said your next one is five, so that's a that's a little bit of a gap.
Carrie:So they're kind of probably fully embracing, you know, siblinghood. How are they doing?
Nicole:It's a huge gift to be able to have them be at ages where they can you can reason with them. They're not confused by what's going on. Consciously, everyone is very excited and in love with Benjamin. Sometimes I worry if my or not worry, but I wonder if my daughter is having a little bit of trouble adjusting to not being the baby. She's my third.
Nicole:She's my five year old. But it helps that she is also my only girl. And so Yeah.
Carrie:I can see that.
Nicole:That makes sense. Yeah. And her and my six year old, they're only fourteen months apart. So my gaps are all over the place because They are. My fertility journey largely.
Nicole:Mhmm. And so they kinda operate like twins, but everybody is is able to help and very excited about the baby, which is which is nice.
Carrie:Oh, that's so sweet to hear. I love that. And and what you said about congruence is great. I just went to a coffee with a sweet friend yesterday who has toddlers, two little boys, and we were laughing because we tried to do coffee. I have a baby that's he owns one, And she has two toddler boys running around.
Carrie:And we just kinda laughed and she's like, you know, I some of my friends can do this and like their kids can handle it and they're different ages and I just don't know if I can do this right now. And that's okay. And we were talking about fully embracing our season because Yeah. They it does shift so much and and also every family is unique. Right?
Carrie:So it's like for some families going out to dinner works because it just does. And then for other families, like, we we just can't compare. Like, so I I love what you're saying that that word, that phrasing of congruence is great because it's it does shift so much. And so it's not about balance or I'm such a routine oriented person. Can be very easy to be like, let's lock in the routine of motherhood and just go.
Carrie:And that's just not how it is, you know?
Nicole:As soon as you get a routine, something will change and it's- It will. It's good to have some structure, but yes, we have to hold it loosely.
Carrie:Yes. I think that's so good coming from you because you've been a mom for quite a while now. Like you said your oldest is 10. So you- you've got the wisdom to share of a decade of, Hey, it's not gonna be just like, you got it locked in, there you go. Forever is going to shift.
Carrie:So I appreciate that wisdom for of of
Nicole:us through my own mistakes and being forced to have my fingers dried off. My own entitlement and my own need for control. So it's it's if I have wisdom to share, it's hard won and and learned the hard way first.
Carrie:Well, appreciate you being willing to share it. I that's like what this podcast is for. You know? I love it. I love that these these new moms that like were a lot of us that listen, like, we have our first.
Carrie:And so it's so fun to, you know, have the community of having other moms that are in the thick of it, like which you are with a newborn, but then also to get moms on that have they're a bit more seasoned because we need it. We need that that practical wisdom. So thank you for that. I would love to would love to dive into whatever you'd wanna share about, you know, you mentioning your five beautiful children that are in heaven and the miscarriages that you endured. Yeah.
Carrie:Share a bit about, just just your story and and walking through that because I do have some friends heartbreakingly that have gone through it. I know that You have. Though it is talked about more than it was my mom had two miscarriages before me. I'm the oldest. And she she would mention it when I was growing up here and there.
Carrie:It just wasn't talked about in the same way that it that it is now and that it's it's it's good that we're talking about it more, but I still think seeing friends walk through it, you can feel very alone, especially when it's you're in the thick of it and no one else is at that time. So I I just think we'd be so blessed to have you share your story. And I think it's really cool that, you know, everybody's story is unique, but you do have these these four beautiful babies here on Earth, and there's a lot of hope in your story and redemption. So, yeah, give us give us a bit of your story.
Nicole:Before before I dive in, I will say there's a lot more detail in from lost to found in what if it's wonderful in terms of just my emotional and spiritual journey throughout. Mhmm. From lost to found actually ends before anything changed in my circumstances. So Really? That was kinda all my heart change without any shift in my story.
Nicole:And then, you know, what if it's wonderful, of course, is about my hesitancy to embrace that joy. But, yeah, I I got married pretty young. I got married at 23, and my mom never had any fertility issues. And I just never thought even being aware of that it is common. It's not normal, but it is common.
Nicole:The I just never thought that that would be my particular brand of struggle in this life. And we got pregnant. I think I was 26, and I lost that baby. And my doctor, you know, again, said that this does happen, so we're not gonna run any tests or anything. And then two months later, it happened again.
Nicole:So I was fortunate in that I was I was able to get pregnant. Mhmm. But after two in a row, he said, you know, I still don't think anything's wrong, but there's two in a row here, and you're young. So let's just make sure there's not, you know, an obvious answer that that could be solved. So they ran the whole panel, and they did find a genetic, what's called a balanced translocation on my husband's side, which basically means I'll I'll spare you all the nitty gritty medical stuff.
Nicole:But basically means that when we conceive, we have about a forty percent chance of getting to meet that baby this side of heaven. So on the one hand, it's a gift to have something to point to, because I know many don't, and it's just this unexplained infertility. On the other hand, you can imagine the anxiety when I get pregnant of wanting to be excited, wanting to experience, you know, embrace that joy and wondering if I get to get to hold on to that and get gonna get to meet that baby this side of heaven. So we had two before my oldest, and then we're able to have my oldest and then three between my first two boys. And there's no rhyme or reason.
Nicole:It so I was shocked when my last three were all okay, especially given the chronic and compounding loss that we had early on in our parenting journey. Yeah. So that that has been the story. And I I thought, you know, I've experienced a lot of tangible loss in my story. But what what if it's wonderful is about is me realizing a lot of the loss I've experienced has been my refusal to embrace the joy when it did come, to embrace the good things that God has for us.
Nicole:Because if you've been through this or a different kind of pain entirely, you know, it can sometimes feel safer not to hold joy at all than to hold something that might break. And so I was really grieved when I realized I'm missing out on the beautiful god given life that I have right in front of me. And I thought no more. So I did a deep dive into scripture. I did a deep dive into how our brain works around joy, in the neuroscience research, and what if it's wonderful was born.
Carrie:So good. Gosh, thank you for sharing that. I I really do pray that a mom hears that today and and just takes heart a little bit.
Nicole:Pray that too.
Carrie:Yeah. I will say with with What If It's Wonderful, my family, like we use that phrase all the time now.
Nicole:Amazing. Love
Carrie:that you're saying you deep you did like a deep dive into it because I do feel like this, you know, and I, I've had not had any any miscarriages. Thank the Lord. And and we've had had a smooth time having our first. But like you said, there's gonna be other areas of our life or of motherhood or of your work or your marriage relationships where you do feel the temptation to, I've been hurt so many times before, I'm not even gonna hope for this. Yes.
Carrie:And I think you do such a good job in this book of encouraging the joy. And I feel like as you were talking, was realizing how much that's seeped into our culture in our home. Because my husband and I'll say to each other all the time, okay, but like what if it's wonderful? There's just there's just something so beautiful about about celebration in the midst of that. And, even when I was reading through your book again, like in this week, of preparing for this conversation, seeing, the the portion of the book where you talk about when you found out you're pregnant with Annie and you you put like number three and you're like, do I put a question mark?
Nicole:Yes.
Carrie:So I am curious like, yeah, going going through those years, what what was it like, you know, even maybe when you were pregnant with Benjamin? Like, do you feel like that's something the Lord has grown in you? Like, is it something you you feel like you continue to wrestle with or have you found, that as you've grown in this and learned this with the Lord that you've been able to maybe surrender or, like, trust in your hope a little bit more throughout the pregnancies?
Nicole:I wouldn't say it's easy for me, but I have the courage to walk through the steps anyway. So if if courage is acting scared, then or moving scared
Carrie:Mhmm.
Nicole:Then that's definitely what I've done. And I do think with that, my feelings have followed. I think there's more of a trust and a surrender. I mean, there's a few things that have been really helpful that are based on the research and what I read in scripture. But the the research and scripture says that thanksgiving is really the practice that is most helpful to us when joy feels really vulnerable.
Nicole:So the only way to tolerate that joy that you wanna hold on to, but you're waiting for the other shoe to drop, that kind of feeling, Thanksgiving is really your only way through. And this is different than gratitude. Thanksgiving is the outward expression of the gratitude that we feel in our hearts. So this is the courage to say it out loud, whether that's to God in your prayers or whether that's, to somebody in your life, maybe your spouse or a friend that's walked that journey with you or, again, to God in your prayers, thank you for giving me this life to to carry and to hold as long as as long as you would have me do that. And that doesn't mean that I feel no fear or I feel no sadness if it's not the answer that I pray for.
Nicole:But the practice of Thanksgiving keeps me really rooted in the here and now, which again, your brain wants to race ahead to the future where you think of, you know, what if, what if, what if, all the bad what ifs. That's part of how what if it's wonderful became the title of the book. Or it wants to race to the past and think, oh, I coulda, shoulda, woulda, and then it would have been different. Thanksgiving keeps us very present. And that's where our brain is happiness because it's where we're empowered to make choices versus just worry about what we can't control.
Nicole:So that's that's probably the practice that's been most helpful. That's so think when you thank god for who he is and not just your circumstances, so that practice of adoration, when you really sit there for a while in your prayers versus jumping straight to, you know, and here's what I'd really love for you to do for me. I think that gives you more of a peace and a trust of his goodness, even in the midst of something that is categorically not good.
Carrie:Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Thank you, Nicole, for sharing that. I my last question with with this particular topic would be what how have you have you shared that with your kids?
Carrie:I mean, some of your kids are a bit older now. Just what you've walked through with this, do they know? And how do I'm curious, like, some moms might might wonder if that's something they should share with their kids that they've walked through miscarriage. Is that something you don't share till later? How have you guys handled that?
Nicole:You know, it's kinda looked different each time. I would say James, my oldest, is the one that's most aware of that journey because, unfortunately, he was present and and of the age where he could sort of grasp what was going on Mhmm. During at least a couple of them. And so he is aware, and we are pretty open that they have five siblings in heaven. We don't know their whether they're brothers or sisters.
Nicole:We don't have that information, but we do talk about it pretty openly. I would say Charlie and Annie have less of a those are my middle five and six year olds. They have less of a context for it just because they weren't present for any of it. And, you know, just younger and the concept of that is different, but but they have definitely heard that we have five siblings, that they have five siblings in heaven. So I have aired more on the open side.
Nicole:Again, age appropriate kid by kid. You know, you anyone listening knows their children better than I do. So Right. That you will know whether that would be a helpful thing to process or not. Every circumstance is different.
Nicole:Some some kids, unfortunately, are just there when there's a moment and a sad reaction or a panic, and you've gotta circle back and
Carrie:Yeah.
Nicole:And do a little bit more explaining. So I would say in general, I air on the more open side. It's a part of your family's story. And, per by kid, but it's personality and and as age appropriate.
Carrie:Yeah. That's great. That's really helpful. I I as I shared earlier, my mom had to and and I, you know, I'm thinking as you're talking, I don't remember when she shared like, I in my mind, I've always known. Right?
Carrie:But I'm sure there was a phase where she started sharing that with me. And
Nicole:I Yeah.
Carrie:And I I don't remember it for me personally because everybody's different. I don't remember it being traumatic. I actually remember she was so grateful because of, you know, walking through that experience. I she always framed it in this way of like just how grateful she was to have us and you know, talking about the the two that were before me. Yeah.
Carrie:And yeah, it is something that kind of shapes your family and I'm sure, you know, people kind of handle that differently. But for me, was always a curiosity, but also just gave me a sense of gratitude for our little family and, know, for the fact that they were blessed to have three of us and that the others, you know, will be waiting. It's a very sweet feeling.
Nicole:Yeah. Yeah. And the research says that, you know, emotional regulation, watching your parents do that is one of the most powerful things we can do for our kids. And so it's not the absence of having a painful feeling, but are we stewarding that well? So I guess that would be the key, not so much whether you and now that I'm talking and kind of thinking about this out loud.
Nicole:Yeah. You know, not whether or not you share it, but how you share it. And are you a good steward of your feelings in helping your kids see you rely on the hope of heaven or, you know, Jesus' presence with you in your pain? Those are good things for our kids to see. Because when they encounter their own painful season, whether that's the exact same one or something else, they're gonna remember and have that model of relying on the power of Christ in that moment.
Nicole:So I think as long as we're stewarding it well, we don't need to be afraid of the feeling.
Carrie:That's great. I wanna ask okay. So you talk about savoring in this book. Yes. And I love this concept.
Carrie:I think it's really beautiful that you kind of say kinda like Thanksgiving, it's it's one of the ways in which we can really embrace celebration and joy. And I I love that. I would love for you to to expand on the topic of savoring and and what that kind of looks like in motherhood because Yes. Motherhood is fleeting. Right?
Carrie:Like, it's it's I feel like it is so it's so easy to just run through the day. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom.
Carrie:Boom. Gotta go. Gotta go. Gotta go. And I I wanna say with your writing in general, by the way, you savor, like, in your writing.
Carrie:You do a really beautiful job of that. Like when you're talking about just specifically you as an author, noticed this that you are always, you give a beautiful picture. It's like you're savoring as you write with the different visuals that you write about in a way that it's like I'm savoring your memory, which is so beautiful as an author. Like when you read, feel like I can picture these. You're you're just you do a really good job of that of
Nicole:Thank you.
Carrie:Not only can I see, but I feel like I'm savoring it with you, which is a really cool writing style? But it has inspired me to savor these small moments because I want to remember them and I want them to bring me as much joy as possible. And if I don't take that time, I won't do that. So yeah, expand on savoring and how you maybe have taken on that practice in motherhood.
Nicole:Right. Yes. Of all the of all the celebration practices outlined in the book, I would say this one's the MVP for sure.
Carrie:I feel that way.
Nicole:Yes. It's definitely been super helpful to me, and it's definitely been it's the one I hear about most from readers. And I love it for this conversation because I think for new moms, it has so many benefits specifically for our season. Mhmm. For what you just mentioned, it's so easy for the days to just pass by or to even you know, it's cliche to say, but I think it's because there's some truth to it.
Nicole:The days are long. The years are short.
Carrie:Yes.
Nicole:And sometimes we're just have more of a get through the day mentality. So the power of savoring is a couple things. One, it keeps us present. So similar to Thanksgiving, it's it's actually also a really great anxiety exercise because it keeps our brain really in the moment. But often as a new mom, you know, we might think, oh, sell we might hear the word celebration and think, oh my gosh.
Nicole:Like, I don't have money for that. I don't have time for that. I don't have energy for that. Like, we just feel like we have to add something to our lives, or have a skill set that we don't have, like be an amazing Pinterest party planner or and that is Yes. That is not me.
Carrie:That that's not me either.
Nicole:I wish it was, but it's not. So savoring is not about adding something to your life. It's about extracting more joy from the life that you are already living. So it's just a mindfulness practice really, that helps you experience more joy with the life you already have. And the way that you practice it is you take one snapshot from your day.
Nicole:So not a whole birthday party, not a whole play date at the park, not not a whole meal, but one moment, a moment so small you could take a photograph of it. So maybe it's the way the sun is hitting your child's hair as they play in the backyard, or maybe it's the sound of your baby's giggle as they are looking at something they find funny, or maybe it's the look on your child's face when you give them a compliment that you can tell really affirms them. Whatever it is, take that snapshot with your brain and ask your five traditional senses what they're going to remember about that moment. So what do you see? What do you hear?
Nicole:What do you smell? What do you taste? And what do you feel? And what that does is it tells your brain, oh, this is important. This mundane moment of joy that your brain is not trained to keep because it wants to keep the negative and large things.
Nicole:So the small and joyful things are not the things it knows to keep. Mhmm. Yep. It's it's used to dismissing those. So you're retraining your brain, especially if you practice this for several days in a row.
Nicole:Oh, this is something we need to pay attention to and we need to hang on to. Your joy is gonna increase, and then that memory gets stored in a different place of your brain where you can actually pull it out at like you would a scrapbook versus having it be discarded by your brain. So you can enjoy it later because it's been stored as important and filed away for later. So it has a lot of benefits. And when I first started practicing this, Annie was a newborn, so five years ago.
Nicole:And I can still go back to those moments, those snapshots because I was super disciplined about practicing savoring. That's so precious. So for new moms, it's really important.
Carrie:It's so good. As you're talking, I'm smiling because I'm thinking about again, I've been in this book again for like the fifth time. And reading that chapter the other night, was holding my son Archie and he likes his own bed, but sometimes I go pick him up because he's out cold. Yes. You know?
Carrie:And I was rocking him and I read that chapter again that day. And it's just as you were talking, I was picturing and smelling and feeling like what it was like to just rock him and he's getting to be a big boy and I'm not gonna be able to do this forever and it's hard to hold him now. And gosh, it just puts such a smile on my face. I love this practice and I think it's so good to start now as a new mom, like you said, because gosh, we've got our whole kids' whole lives ahead of us And it's something obviously you can start wherever you are, but I think that's really cool. It's like an encouraging thing to hear now.
Carrie:Because I also think it's practical because it's not, think you hear the advice so often like blink and you'll miss it. Oh, go so fast, whatever. It's like, well, I don't really know what to do with that. Like you're kinda just telling me, there it goes. Yeah.
Nicole:Right. It's a hopeless
Carrie:Yeah. Just wait. Like that kind of thing. Just wait, they'll be grown up. But this is so practical to say, Hey, just try to just because if you do the one moment, I sometimes think we can go to bed as moms and think, Did I take in this day?
Carrie:And you think of the whole day, to your point. It's not a whole day. It's not I mean, maybe it'll be a few of those moments, but I think it's so practical to start small and think, What's that moment? Like when your head hits the pillow each night, what's that one moment that I remember from this day? Let me just store that up.
Carrie:And it's just a little bit of an easier thing to a task to bite off than it is, am I soaking up every moment of every day? Because people tell you to do that and it's really, really hard when you're tired and you're breastfeeding, you know, all the stuff.
Nicole:Yeah, and it just invites a lot of pressure that motherhood doesn't need. I mean, motherhood is filled with enough pressure as it is. Right? So savoring is actually empowering because it's something that you can do, to your point, versus just worrying that you're missing it as you're in the thick of it.
Carrie:Yeah. So similarly to savoring, I don't even know what topic I would call this, but I love how you've talked about with your family that you guys I don't know if you do this anymore, but when you did like the bonfire nights and s'mores
Nicole:and Yes.
Carrie:You're talking about community and that's something that I've thought about for years in reference. I feel like when I listen to podcasts, when I read books, certain traditions with family, those things will just stick out to me because I'm I'm a savorer of moments. Yeah. So I love to do something like that. And so anyway, I just remember you you sharing that story in the book and I I love just the picture of taking something ordinary, turning it into something special just to celebrate just because because life, like you said.
Carrie:I'm curious whether you do that practice or not as as people that think those things are important as like making mundane moments, special moments and having traditions and rituals and things like that. Do you feel like you're seeing that shape your kids because, you know, they're getting a little bit older? Like, that something is that something they look forward to, they love, they expect? Is it like a family value at this point? And have you seen the fruit of that?
Nicole:I would say absolutely. And I'm thinking of a few other things too. And that was we moved into our our house in August 2020. So COVID was still very much present in terms of how people were interacting, especially up here in New England. And so we also simultaneously moved into this neighborhood where it's picture kind of a Cape Cod feel type neighborhood.
Nicole:And the reason I bring that up is the backyards tend to be pretty small. And so the fire pits and a lot of the gathering is happening in the front Okay. Which I feel like is not typically how homes are designed. They're designed for their more private spaces to be the gathering spaces.
Carrie:Mhmm.
Nicole:But I loved that because it really you can't avoid we also live in a big walking neighborhood. So there's a lot of people walking by, especially during those warmer seasons. And so you can't help but connect with your neighbors as you're, you know, being festive in the front yard. Mhmm. And sometimes people would stay and sometimes they would just keep walking, but very few people would walk by without connecting.
Nicole:And that just it felt so countercultural to how our lives have become, at least in America. And I really loved the example of that for my kids in terms of hospitality, just no fuss. I mean, we didn't, like, set up for a beautiful party every every Friday night or Saturday night. That's what I
Carrie:love, the practicality of it. But yet I'm sure your kids think, like, like, the the simplest nights of my childhood are the ones I go back to the most. Like, we are savoring. It's like, I just I picture the cul de sacs and the fire pits and, the most basic bag of potato chips. It doesn't need to be anything fancy for your kids to feel like this is magic.
Carrie:This is so special.
Nicole:Yeah. And you're holding space for someone to feel seen, to feel known, to feel loved. And I think that whether you're actually saying that and teaching them those words, I I think the more important thing is the example and the feeling they get. When, you know, we set this up, we go in the front yard, and we don't really know what the evening's gonna hold. But we're holding space for conversation, for connection, for community, you know, all those good c words.
Carrie:The triple c.
Nicole:Yes. Yes. And I I hope I hope they've stuffed their pockets with that goodness and that they can do that in their own front front yard someday.
Carrie:That's so great. And what about what about just family traditions? Like, because you my husband and I just we were sitting down to dinner the other night, and we kinda started talking about he's just our sons at the age where you start to realize as parents, okay, like, you know, we're young. We've been married three and a half years, going on four years. Our baby's young, but we're kinda becoming who we're gonna be.
Carrie:Like, you don't just snap and become this parent. And you don't just accidentally give your kid an intentional childhood. Right? Like you don't just accidentally become something that you hope to be. You have to make those steps.
Carrie:And so anyway, we were just kind of talking about what's the core value, what's important to us, what's not, and how do we get there? Anyway, we were just talking a lot about the idea of community and of our kids feeling a sense of tradition or ritual, know, in a sense, and the safety that can come from that. We talk about our own childhoods and just things that we remember. And we noticed that with our own childhoods, so many of the things that we would bring up like, well, I really want our kids to feel this was about the sense of, I can rely on this, whether it's a vacation every year or something so much simpler, like a pizza night on Fridays or just those things of like the consistency. And I know you've talked about that a little bit with just like rituals or we do this on Fridays or we do Yeah.
Carrie:Like what does that look like for you guys? And is that something you still like are prioritizing as a family unit? Because I'm sure it shifts as you have a new baby again and, you know, all that stuff.
Nicole:Yeah. And certainly, it looks different in different seasons. But like you, those were some of the favorite parts of my childhood. So definitely something and I think they're helpful for adults.
Carrie:Talked about
Nicole:a little bit in the book. Yeah. But it's it's something that you return to that keeps you really grounded in the goodness of God and reminds you of the ways he's been he's been faithful to your family. So one of our favorite ways, I mentioned we live in a coastal area. And so there's sea glass on our beach.
Nicole:And we love, not at a particular day or time of the week per se, but we walk frequently, and we usually will look for sea glass. And we have these jars that we sort into different colors in our home. We have tens of thousands of pieces at this point. This was another practice started in COVID because the world was totally shut down where we were and I had a four year old and a four month old. And I thought, I gotta run these boys and get them outside.
Nicole:What are we gonna do? I mean, even the even hikes around us were roped off. I mean
Carrie:Same with LA.
Nicole:I was in LA. Yes. Very similar to LA.
Carrie:Not going anywhere.
Nicole:Yes. So I would drive an hour to these beaches, and we started hunting for sea glass. And it has just become a way of I you know, I see those jars, and I I reflect on the ways God has woven friendship into my kids through those seaglass hunts, how he's grounded me in his truth as I've picked up those pieces and slowed down in my own practice, the conversations I've had with my husband walking up and down the beach. So that's one ritual that's been really important for us. We do do pizza every Friday night.
Nicole:Oh, do you? Yep. Yep. That's the classic.
Carrie:You gotta do it. The classic.
Nicole:Yep. And we yeah, we we are a family that loves traditions. So I'm sure there's a ton that I'm not even thinking of just because I'm so used to them.
Carrie:I absolutely, I love that. I just I think I can I just kinda see that as I as I fall in even on socials, you can just
Nicole:tell Yeah?
Carrie:Just your family values. And and I I think your kids just look like they carry a lot of joy. So I was just curious. Like, thanks for sharing that. You know what that looks like.
Carrie:It's true. Yeah. But I hope- I hope my kids get to experience that. And my parents did a great job of that. And so I am always looking for ways and inspiration to give that intentional, sense of tradition to our kids.
Nicole:Yeah. I see. And I can think of a few around birthdays. Like, our our town has a fence where you can put a banner up when it's someone's birthday, and each of my kids have banners. And on my daughter's birthday, she gets a rose from all the men in her family, which is everyone, but There's a lot of them.
Nicole:Yeah.
Carrie:A whole bouquet.
Nicole:Yeah. Three brothers and a dad. So I think what what's significant too in terms of motherhood is I've really tried, and I could probably be better at this. I've I've recognized as a therapist that a lot of the moments our kids we have to that are obvious to celebrate our kids are around performance. We say good job when they get an A on the test or let's go for ice cream when you hit a home run at the little league game.
Nicole:And I think I've really tried to be intentional about celebrating personhood over performance. Not to stop celebrating performance, I think you should absolutely celebrate the home run and the A's and all those things. But really look for opportunities outside of that to say, hey, this is I am so glad God made you this way. No one else in the family is made this way. And our family is better for it, and here's how.
Nicole:Or this is a quality that God's given you that I love watching unfold. And it brings me so much joy to see how he's writing your story through that particular quality that you have. Those are the times that don't come as naturally if we hear just on autopilot. And so some of those traditions are a great way, like an affirmation dinner or
Carrie:Yeah.
Nicole:Seriously. Some of those traditions are good avenues outside of the performance that life naturally serves up to to celebrate personhood over performance.
Carrie:Personhood over performance. I love that. I love Okay. Well, this has been so fun. My my last question for you is what would be your best piece of advice for a new mom who's bringing home her first baby?
Nicole:So many things are coming to my mind. I think and not because I have a lot of advice to give. I'm just thinking about all the feelings that that new mom can easily feel. I think pressure off wisdom is better than any particular wisdom. Somebody, you know, at at a baby shower, somebody who hosted it had all the guests write wisdom on these little paper blue socks at one of my baby showers for my oldest son.
Nicole:So I was a new mom. And one of them one of them said, remember, there are days where all you're gonna do is grow your child one day older, and that's okay.
Carrie:Think there's
Nicole:so much pressure to get it all right Mhmm. And to do a great job. And there's enough wisdom out there on best practices and
Carrie:Mhmm.
Nicole:But I think remembering, a, the Lord is with you. He loves you. He loves your child.
Carrie:Mhmm.
Nicole:My friend Jeannie Cunyan, who's written a lot on motherhood says, trust God with the kids God has entrusted to you.
Carrie:And
Nicole:that's probably the wisdom I've hung on to most frequently over the last decade. That's so good. Whether you're doing a ton or growing your kid one day older, trust God with with the children he's entrusted to you because there will be many days where it's very obvious that you can't control or be the Holy Spirit in their lives or make certain things happen. And there's a surrender that has to happen as you partner with the Holy Spirit in raising them.
Carrie:I love that, Nicole. I I have to say, I think there's been a theme with a lot of my friends lately when we kind of encourage each other and pour into each other, you know, as you have your friends that are in the same season.
Nicole:Yes.
Carrie:And so many of the nuggets that we've all been, I would say, sharing and wanting to receive have so been, like you just said, pressure off on Wiz. Like, instead of an a thing to add, it's a thing to subtract almost. And I I think that we need that because it's just social media and the mom algorithm and whatever algorithm you're in, it's probably giving you too much information. The mom algorithm in particular can be hard because you're trying to be present with your kid. Here's 10 things you should be doing and 10 things you're not doing enough of and 10 things you could do better.
Carrie:And so I am constantly soaking up anytime someone gives a great piece of wisdom like that where it's like here, you know, actually here's a way of taking something off your plate, not adding it. It's like you're you're doing a great job. And if your kid's getting one day older, that's amazing. So anyway, just want to acknowledge. That's like a theme I've been noticing lately is moms need to hear you're doing you're doing enough.
Carrie:And it's like, yes, there's we could read all the books and we can, you know, ask all the friends everything, but ultimately just remembering remembering that. That's that's so good. And just to trust the Lord with the children He's entrusted us to us. So good. Awesome.
Carrie:Well, thank you so much for your time, Nicole. This has been so lovely and and seriously has been such a long time coming. I think you're so wonderful. What are- speaking of wonderful. What are you- what are you up to now in terms of, your- are you writing anything?
Carrie:I know you said you have this Bible study out. Just maybe give us a little update on- on your end with that stuff.
Nicole:Yes. Daring Joy has been out about a year, and that just goes through six women in the Bible who each teach us a different aspect of joy. So some some of them hold up the mirror to our human nature that prevents us from experiencing the fullness of God's joy. And some of them are a beautiful example of what it looks like to practice joy, even when life doesn't necessarily lend itself to that. So that's that Bible study, and it's been out for about a year and I am working on a book proposal.
Nicole:Almost finished with it. But again, moving slower than I thought. That's okay.
Carrie:You go girl.
Nicole:Yes. Trusting God's timing on that and praying for the the right publisher for that. So hoping I'll get to work on that book as well.
Carrie:That's amazing. Well, I'm definitely gonna drop your your books as well as Daring Joy, like in the show notes and everything. Perfect. You're a blessing. Thank you so much for being on.
Carrie:I really appreciate it. Nicole.
Nicole:Thank you so much for having me.
Carrie:Absolutely. I loved that talk with Nicole. I hope you guys did too. Really appreciated what she talked about with, the sense of family tradition and savoring and making that a daily practice. I feel like I'm going to take that into my day and I hope you guys do too.
Carrie:Also, I wanna remind you that you can get both of her books as well as her bible study Daring Joy. I will have all of that for you guys available in the show notes. And also subscribe to the show if you haven't. Leave a review, a comment, so I know that you're listening, so I know, you know, what you guys wanna hear about. I appreciate all of you truly.
Carrie:And whether you're listening on a walk or, you know, up in the middle of the night breastfeeding, you got an AirPod in at the grocery store, wherever you new moms are, I am so thankful that you're here with me and, thanks for listening.