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Outbound as we know it will never be the same.
For buyers, a lot of tools have surfaced to help protect them from outbound reps. But the reps also get access to tools helping them play offense.
In this episode, we talk about what's changed, why outbound is relevant and how it can be used today.
Creators and Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:27] Mikkel: Let's go. So, you know, uh, while you were off on holiday and really enjoy, you know, recharging the batteries, I was working from home and, um, you know, sometimes you really wanna just sit, have lunch, no disturbances, no interruptions. So. I sat down and I, you know, switch, switch off my phone, uh, shut down the laptop and just, you know, sat and relaxed.
[00:00:56] And then there was, um, a ring on the door and I was like, you know what? I, I can't be bothered even getting up right now. I just don't like, let me just sit, relax and kept ring. at some point it also gets a bit awkward because you start thinking, does the person know I'm here or what's what's going on?
[00:01:16] And then it turned into a knocking and it got louder and louder. I was like, yeah, still not still not doing it. It's me time. Stop, bothering me. And then, uh, all of a sudden the door was busted open and this guy came in saying, you know, hope you don't mind the persistence, but did you get my email?
[00:01:35] Toni: and did you get it?
[00:01:35] Mikkel: probably, I didn't read it. Yeah, but no, this was a, you know, fun little, uh, story. I think Dave Gerhardt told on, on ding in. Right. Um, and we're really gonna talk about how on sales today. This is really, disturbing the me time. and it's such a funny feel. Either you really hate it.
[00:01:55] And you have lots of examples of why, or actually you think it's a gold mine. So we're gonna talk a bit about outbound today. Specifically what's changed, nice or changing. Yeah. And how companies can win. Let's go. So you've been, you know, responsible for a lot of different fields teams who on, in B2B, SAS, outbound being one of them.
[00:02:15] And I think the first step is really to talk about why should you prioritize or try out outbound.
[00:02:24] Toni: Yeah. So I think outbound is awesome. I also think marketing is awesome. I also think cool, excellent partnership and all of that stuff. I think you shouldn't rule anything out just because it has a bad reputation.
[00:02:34] I think that's already the bad start. I think the, the reason why, why outbound is, is interesting conceptu. Let's maybe start on that super high level is, um, it really is demand generation. When you really think about it, it's not, you know, you're calling a bunch of people and they don't know you, they don't know about, um, your solution.
[00:02:58] They don't maybe don't know about the problem and you kind of educate them. Actually, you kind of tell them, Hey, this is what's up and this is what's down. And, uh, when you do that, you are doing exactly what demand generation is trying to achieve also. And you're doing this into a almost infinite. Right.
[00:03:14] It's not only the people that know about you already, which would otherwise go to Google or to review sites already. Those are really the folks that have no fing clue about you at all. You call them up and you, you know, there are millions, well, probably not millions, but thousands of those giving all of them a call will probably kind of help you.
[00:03:31] Right. And the even cooler stuff about. Is that, you know, one of the biggest drawbacks and flaws? Well, not sure if you would call it a flaw, but issues, friction points of demand. Gen is the inability to attribute. Mm. You do a bunch of work. and yes, your direct, and branded, uh, traffic is increasing and your demo requests are increasing and your conversion rates and all of that stuff is great.
[00:03:58] But you can't really pinpoint to the CFO and say like, you know, this was this podcast episode over there, and this was this other thing over there. You will, you will always struggle to do, you know, specific attribution. Yeah. And, and sometimes joking say you can buy five dream datas. It's still not going to fix that issue for you.
[00:04:15] Right. However, when you use S STS and yes, all of this is also flawed. Don't get me wrong, but Hey, you know, yeah. That person placed that. That person had a conversation that person created that meeting and then suddenly something closed and you feel more like there's a direct attribution, which is still not hundred percent perfect.
[00:04:37] We all know that marketing also plays a big role in, you know, making sure that that happens in the end, but that is for me, uh, really the point of doing outbound. Honestly, it's a, it's a really nicely scalable channel. it's also something where, You know, you can, you can create that spreadsheet and add those people in.
[00:04:57] Yeah. And you can feel, you can, you can see your way, how money's gonna come out of this. Uh, if you do the same exercise with marketing, for example, it, it just, it's not the same thing. Mm-hmm right. and I think this is where some of the, uh, some of the excitement about outbound is coming from, from those CFOs, from the CEOs, from, uh, from a bunch of folks.
[00:05:17] and I share that. But then yet again, only putting all of your efforts into one, you know, on one leg is also the wrong thing to do. Right. But outbound is, yeah. I like it as a tactic for sure. Yeah. I
[00:05:28] Mikkel: think we've, we've talked a lot about the, the confidence level is a lot higher because you, you have more control and more, overview of the actual performance, but there's also the other side to your point, which is.
[00:05:43] Hey, it wouldn't be great if they already knew you, when you call mm-hmm, then it's, it's so much easier that barrier and that cut through and, and the job of an SD, whatever you call it, mm-hmm, making that Upbound call gets easier. So, so I totally agree. There is a balance you need to strike one, doesn't rule out the other.
[00:05:59], and that's a totally, you know, separate episode we can, we can take in the future really. How, how can marketing help? How can all the other departments help? Mm-hmm we're gonna focus on, on outbound. And we really like the. Let's say the predictability of it. Right. You can spreadsheet a lot of the things out, you know, how many calls mm-hmm you can make how many touchpoint, yep.
[00:06:17] Meetings and so on. Right. But there's also a lot that's happened over the last couple of years. That's changed outbound mm-hmm that we should talk a bit about.. And to your knowledge, like when, when you've worked with outbound just five years ago, there was one distinct approach to book a meeting, right?
[00:06:37] But what's changed today.
[00:06:40] Toni: I would even go even further back then. Just the last five years actually I would, I would go almost to the, I don't wanna call it the inception of outbound, but, uh, basically Aaron Ross, Aaron Ross, predictable revenue. That's the book he wrote. And, um, he developed that.
[00:06:57] Methodology. I'm not sure if he really is the guy that figured it out, but probably was around already then. but at least he wrote the book about it. Let's just say it like that. So he gets the credit attribution back then. no, but, uh, I think he was at Salesforce and back then at Salesforce, he, basically created a list of a hundred leads, then emailed them on a Monday and then called through them.
[00:07:21] Throughout the rest of the week. and that was super successful. And then he built a team doing the same thing and it was also super successful and totally worked. So we're talking, you know, early two thousands, by the way. Yeah. if you today create a list of a hundred leads, send them one email and then call them, it's, it's not gonna be the same result.
[00:07:39] Let's let me tell you that. Right. And I think these things just evolved over the last, last two decades. Right. And I think, on the one hand side you have. the, the, the SDR teams, you know, ramping up and getting better and better and better and smarter enabled by technology enabled by, uh, more data enabled by just, 20 years of experience and experience inside sales managers and directors that know this stuff works.
[00:08:04] But at the same time, you also have a shoring up of defenses on the other you have, phone systems that tell you when there's an outbound call hitting you, you have, Google and all the other email providers basically labeling, oh, this is spam. This is, this is someone reaching out.
[00:08:20] This could be even, this could even be, uh, what is it called?, this hook thing when this could be a scam kind of email, right? Yeah. Fishing. Yeah, you have it. you know, basically it's kind of making it much, much harder for you to actually break through, right. So you have those two defenses kind of building up.
[00:08:34] And I think, I think this will probably continue indefinitely. Actually. I, I don't think outbound will be declared dead anytime soon. I think that was set now 10 years ago and five years ago and still being said today, but I don't think that, um, that will happen anytime soon, honestly. And when, when we started out with outbounds, I think it's also now 10 years ago.
[00:08:59] I think it's 10 years ago now. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. It was July two 12 or something like that. Crazy man, time flies, time does fly. And the first time I saw it, I was like, come on, that's obviously not gonna work what you're gonna call a bunch of people and tell them, Hey, I want to sell you something for 20,000 euros. And they. Yeah, let's do that.
[00:09:21] Mikkel: I immediately trust you. Yeah.
[00:09:23] Toni: And, and, you know, I was putting myself into that position. I was like, well, you know, would, um, would I buy like this? And I was like, no, I wouldn't buy like this totally stupid, but it does work. It really does work. Right. And, uh, and I think, you know, the, the initial reaction of, Hey, that doesn't work, it's still there, but it's still works though.
[00:09:42] Right. So I don't know. Uh, I think it's also, if that's your
[00:09:45] Mikkel: mindset. Hey, I hate outbound because I don't like being spam. So we're never gonna build this out in our company. That's a really bad way to make decisions. Actually, you should at least try and remove. That perception and try it out. Yeah. And then it can be that maybe it doesn't work for you for whatever reason the ESP doesn't justify it or, or whatever.
[00:10:06] But I, I think it's, that applies not just to outbound, to, but to everything, because you said it before, you know, outbound has been, labeled debt many times the same for email mm-hmm same for search engine optimization. Yeah. And guess what? There are still people calling. There are still people doing SEO, still people sending email marketing and it works.
[00:10:25] Toni: I think the way I would almost think about it is, um, let's just say on your website, you have a couple of different CTAs. You have one CTA that's, sign up for the newsletter. You have one CTA that's, started a trial and then you have one talk to sales and all of these three things, they might work for different people at different, places in their buying process.
[00:10:47] Yeah. And I think all of these different tactics that we're talking about on the go to market. They work for different kinds of people and, you know, even sometimes in different points in their careers, sometimes in different points where they are sitting in the hierarchy, uh, sometimes different, you know, points yet in their, in their buying cycle.
[00:11:04] Mm. And you wanna actually try and, deploy all of those different tactics in order to access all of the different people at the different time. Right. And, and outbound certainly has its point. and it's his value. just kind of, you know, building it in the right way and, and, and angling it, it, the right.
[00:11:20] that just needs as much tweaking and work and thought as potentially all of your other marketing strategies and tactics. Right. Mm-hmm, it's just the same thing that, you know, the same energy that you need to put into it. Yeah.
[00:11:32] Mikkel: And I think it's also just, I think that's why it's important that we talk about the changes, because if you don't realize that things have changed, you cannot adjust how you strategically go and execute mm-hmm and if you don't do that, you're gonna be left behind mm-hmm right.
[00:11:45] So just a, just as an example, in marketing, there's a lot of talk. Consumption of website. So specifically, if you look at Google search, they've been really great at building currency conversion, find your flight, all, all these things are now being built in, so you don't need to leave Google mm-hmm. And that creates a dilemma, obviously for those marketers who wants to leverage that channel.
[00:12:08] And if you don't adapt, you're not gonna be able to, to, extrapolate the value and. Let's maybe get into some of the things that's changed. Mm-hmm specifically for outbound. Yeah. you, you talked a bit about on the defensive there's a lot of tooling that's started to rise and certainly, probably also for, the offensive side, outbound there's, new mechanisms and things, that can be leveraged.
[00:12:29] Toni: Yep. I think number one, as for many, many, many things, most of the basics are still. Mm. And, you know, we can, we can do an episode on, uh, all the fantastic, uh, new things that are happening and they're all exciting and, and so forth. But I do actually think, uh, most of the basics, if you don't nail them, if you don't, get them right.
[00:12:52] I think all of this, uh, nicely, you know, sprinkling on top kind of thing. It's not gonna work out actually. Right. So I think number one, you know, getting, uh, getting the right people in place, getting the right process in place, you know, making sure you have the ICP reaching out to them in the right way, yada, yada, all of that stuff, you know, you need to get that right before any, anything else.
[00:13:14] Right. And then I think on the, you know, what, what should be different is, um, yes, you will need to probably start. Using some of the tools that are out there simply to help your SDRs, be quicker at what they otherwise would be doing anyway. Right. And, and big part of the SDR job in my opinion is actually is actually research.
[00:13:39] Yeah. Is actually trying to understand who is this? Who is this potential buyer? Why is it a potential buyer? What might she be interested in? What is she thinking about? What is, what are her problems right now? How can I break through right now? What, what could be the hook here actually? And it's very similar to running a LinkedIn post, you know, what's, what's the hook of my audience today.
[00:14:01] Yeah. You think about it and then you put it out and then you, you, maybe, maybe it works, but this is really in a one-to-one kind of channel. And I think then the, the, the last piece and this kind of the new cool. chatter about Upbound and in any kind of form is kind of this whole pattern interrupt.
[00:14:18] Yeah. Idea. I'm not sure if you came across that already. Yeah. Yeah. It's really the, um, Hey, let's, you know, you need to, you need to do something to say something that I, you know, doesn't make you look like, or doesn't, directly identify yourself as a outbound kind of conversation. And it's not in a shady head.
[00:14:37] I don't wanna, show my true intent. It's more in a, oh, I didn't expect that kind of way. Right. And, many people are now kind of taking this concept and building it even into the cold call. You. Uh, you know, the first thing you say, then be the pattern interrupt, and then someone's like blocking away and you pet interrupt again.
[00:14:56] it's like, I don't know everything is pattern interrupt these these days. but, um, you know, those are, those are some of the newer tactics that are coming up, but I actually
[00:15:03] Mikkel: think so pattern interrupt is a nice little hack, right. And, and probably it's always been something just has a little bit of a different flavor today.
[00:15:10] I think the research part is where it gets really interesting, right? Because over the last couple of. More and more data has become available, but people are also more actively promoting what they do. If you, you talked about LinkedIn as an example, right. And the other day, I had a SDR cold email and, you know, I get a few a week and I instantly forget them.
[00:15:32] But this one I remember because he or she, I can't remember clearly did their home. He had been trolling, my LinkedIn researching, you know, grow blocks as well to figure out what is it we do, what stage are we at? And he had basically taken a line from one of my posts, which was my, my hook in that post and used it as a subject line.
[00:15:54] And this email was not the classic, you know, Hey, he has a Google talk where there's insert first name here, add a bit of personalization in this line and then blast it out. Mm-hmm. Now he had, he had tailored it for me, specif. Right. And that's, I, I can't remember the last time I replied to an outbound email.
[00:16:12] It's been been a while, but I replied to that one. Mm. It was unfortunately for him, no, we're not interested at this stage, but I bet if he circles back in the future and it is the right time, then it's gonna be very different.
[00:16:26] Toni: And, and I agree. And, thinking this one step further, thinking about scaling, something like that, you know, all the, all the.
[00:16:34] Red alert lights go off like, oh, oh, how do you scale this? Right. That, that seems difficult. And the first step here is okay. The, the kind of people we wanna hire for that specific role, it's different from the I'm gonna make 50, 60, 70, 80 calls a day. And I'm cool with that. Yeah. And, it's, it also puts way more pressure on the enablement side, on the onboarding side, right.
[00:17:01] for. Okay. Let's just say you have a different kind of person sitting there now as an SDR. maybe that is more research oriented and maybe that is bit more switched on in the market and the product and you know, what the problems could be. but you still need to help them with, Hey, this is, those are the problems.
[00:17:18] This is the best approach. Um, this is the ICP. This is how you should go about it. And, and this is how the ICP splits into it. 10 20, 30 different variants. I don't know that that might be a thing. and here is now a playbook how to approach it. And I think, that is very, very different from, Hey, here's the script.
[00:17:36] And by the way, scripts work, if anyone's, you know, oh no scripts, don't, you know, we, we are not robots and, you know, we have. Kind of similar discussions also here, roadblocks about some, some of these approaches, but scripts do work in, in the beginning in terms of getting someone, you know, sounding very much onboarded very quickly.
[00:17:53] And then, you know, the script fades out. But basically in, in this newer world, in this different approach, most of these scripts now they're basically useless. Mm-hmm right. So you can. You can't create 50, 60 highly tailored scripts or anything. It doesn't work like this anymore. No. So you need to teach structure instead and you need to teach, um, you know, you almost need to go in and have a, uh, an inside sales manager or a coach that almost says like, okay, let's, let's take this email here part, let's take this phone call apart.
[00:18:24] Yeah. Why did it not work? Hmm. Right. And, and do learning through that. I think that that is just a completely different thing from, and by the way, I've been guilty of that myself. Of the, how many calls did you make today? Yeah, I still love that question by the way, but it's, um, it's, it's just a different, it's a different thing, right?
[00:18:41] Yeah.
[00:18:42] Mikkel: Yeah. I think you're dealing, you should deal more with outcomes, right? That that's ultimately what it is and, and sure. The amount of calls is an input, but I, I think, I think to your point, it's fair to say that, starting with a script makes sense. And then initially it fades out and actually using the research as a way.
[00:19:00] To cut through better. That's that's the key. And at the end of the day, you wanna create a dialogue. You don't want to just, talk at people. You want to talk with them.
[00:19:08] Toni: Yes. And I'm, you know, maybe one thought on this whole, input effort, dilemma. I think it's totally worth it to have that conversation, honestly.
[00:19:19], and, and the reason here is if you are hitting your numbers, great. If you're not hitting your numbers, The manager will have a conversation with you and he, or she might be able to then point out and say, well, one of the things you can improve is the number of calls, activities, emails, things you do in a day.
[00:19:39] Yeah. And I think that's totally fair. paying someone or judging someone based on number of calls that they're made, probably that's not the right approach, but completely shying away from using that as a thing that you know, needs to be discussed between, a individual and a manager. I think that's also wrong.
[00:19:55] Right. And yes. I've been in that meeting and I've been the one saying it, Hey, you know, you know, meetings, book this down across the board and see there. Number of calls, number of dials is also down. I'm not saying it's a causation here, but it looks like a correlation. So please, the inside sales manager, can you please pull up, pull up those calls?
[00:20:17] I'm sure the meetings will follow. It's not everyone knows. It's not as simple as that. No, but those two things are connected. Let's not forget about it. Mm.
[00:20:25] Mikkel: So it used to be easy is almost what I'm hearing with outbound. Right? It's how many calls? Here's the script. Here's a process. Easier now with all this availability of data and defensive mechanisms, things, things have started to change, right?
[00:20:43], you basically need to be more versatile. So I think what we should spend a bit of time discussing is knowing that these are some of the changes happening. when you want to build that outbound, how should you adapt as a business? Because we're still, I think we're never married to a specific idea, but we do believe it's important.
[00:21:01] To try things out and, not worry about, can we scale it? You will figure that out. Right. Mm-hmm so how should businesses adapt to some of these changes we've talked about?
[00:21:12] Toni: Yeah. So number one, I don't think that I don't think that it has gotten harder necessarily. I hired like, uh, VP marketing, VP sales types that are in their forties and, you know, maybe early fifties.
[00:21:26] And guess how they started their careers in sales, not as an SDR because that concept wasn't around back then, but they did either door to door stuff. old school that's yeah. Really hard. Yeah. All they did. uh, they had like this, this style phone where you need to
[00:21:42] Mikkel: this, I dunno. You could just say a landline even
[00:21:46] Toni: then.
[00:21:46] We're way back. Yeah. Let's, let's call a landline, but even worse, actually, they had to use, uh, you know, public telephone booth because they were kind of merge between, between door to door and phone and they had to run around with basically a, a massive bag. Really heavy of quarters. So this is in New York city.
[00:22:03] This is in the us because quarters is how you operated those, those phones. Right. yep. And honest, I'm sorry. You know, the, the, the sales and outbound job is not that tough actually anymore. It's, it's tough in a different way. Totally. but I'm just saying it's, you know, I think you, that's what, that's what I mean, right.
[00:22:21] You kind of have advances on the one side and then you also have advanced on the other side. Yeah. And I think. That stays stays the same, throughout time it feels like mm-hmm. I think the, the way to adapt here is, number one, figuring out what is it that actually works with your ICP and your bio persona?
[00:22:39] I think this is, you know, number one and getting really clear about this is, is, is step one in this process. And I feel many. Many people building outbound teams like skipping over that fact. Yeah. They're like, ah, you know, here's a phone, here's a little, let go. and you can be super lucky, or you can just wait a long time and have some random person that you just hired off the street, figure this all out for you, which I don't think.
[00:23:09] It's actually fair, to be honest, this is a, this is the thing that someone senior in the organization doesn't need to be the founder, but someone senior in the organization needs to figure out for you. Right. and, and then the next step is maybe for some of those people, uh, the old, the old script works, calling them just as much as possible.
[00:23:29] You know, I, I was, uh, part of a, a hospitality SMB. and yeah, writing them emails, wasn't a thing calling them was the thing. Yeah. and, and then, then that's maybe the channel that they should use and then you should totally use it. And you should maybe do as many calls as you can per day. And then that's the strategy.
[00:23:45] Mikkel: So you're saying on the, the basics you apply, you need to figure out what is that play basically. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:51] Toni: Yes. And you know what that play could look like, what everyone is now saying doesn't work anymore for that specific bio persona for that vertical, for that. Segment, whatever it is. Yeah. Right. So, and, and, and creating that clarity in your mind.
[00:24:04] I think that's, that's really important. And then obviously trying to play book it and then teach it to, to the guys actually doing it. That's the important piece. and then, you know, number three, you might be running into, the realization that with you specific buyer persona, let's just say sophisticated B2B marketer in a, in a SaaS company.
[00:24:26] That the, outbound call doesn't work. Yeah. Right. And then, you know, what's the playbook then. Right. And, and maybe instead of then hiring folks that are really good at placing 80, 90, a hundred calls a day, or dials actually attempts it's attempts by the way. That's, that's the number it's not actual calls.
[00:24:42], Maybe then, you know, they need to almost be more like an, uh, a mini LinkedIn influencer, right? Maybe, maybe this is almost what, what those folks then, uh, maybe need to do in order to attract someone like yourself and be interesting for what you do. Right. And ensure they will still be able to use, email and phone and all of those supportive supplement yep.
[00:25:06] Uh, channels. But the starting point might be somewhere different in your case, it might be linked. And, uh, and, and I think, you know, those kind of adaptations that that's really what you need to think about.
[00:25:17] Mikkel: this is such a great example, right? Because I saw on a, I'm not gonna name the community, but there was a community where there was a sales channel and they talked about, Hey, after you connect with someone on LinkedIn, how long do you usually wait to reach out with an email?
[00:25:32] I was like, oh, no, because to your point, you are absolutely right. If you're actually. If you're building up your profile as an SDR on LinkedIn, consistently sharing advice and connect with your ICP. Number one, they will see that and you will start building up trust, but you can also start engaging with them, which is gonna be way more powerful.
[00:25:52] So I think if you did that consistently for a month with. someone who is your ICP and then go and reach out because you believe now potentially it's relevant based on the research. Mm-hmm you're gonna cut through way better.
[00:26:06] Toni: I think so too. It's, whenever, you know, for grow blocks, for example, I should say we have five SDS.
[00:26:13] I think that strategy is totally gonna work. Totally gonna do that, but then you think, okay. Mmm. Maybe that's not gr robust. Maybe that's one of our customers, we need a hundred or 200 STL. Is that strategy gonna work for that kind of scale? Mm-hmm and I'm not so sure about it. I think, I think it could, but it will require like something completely different.
[00:26:37] Yeah. And, um, and I think, you know, once here that anyway, I think what we in our little LinkedIn echo chamber and B2B SA echo chamber are forgetting about, uh, the 95% of other people. That are not on that platform that are not active as we are that sit in normal jobs where the phone still works by the way.
[00:26:56] Yeah. and it's, um, again, right, you need to adapt. You need to figure out what works for what buying persona. You need to be really thoughtful around that and you need to help reduce all the. Meaningless brain brain killing tasks that SDS are having, and you enable them to do some more stuff.
[00:27:14] And by the way, they also want to do all of that stuff while not forgetting about the basics, because at the end of the day, yes, it is. I would still argue it is setting that meeting. It is creating this, Hey, someone needs to listen to me or a sales rep for 30 minutes minimum, in order to educate in order to discover in order to do whatever you're doing, uh, that is, that still needs to be the outcome.
[00:27:38] Mikkel: And I think one of the things you said earlier is also, it almost changes the job, the jobs that exist within the organization, right? If you're sitting in revenue operations, if you have an SDR team that all of a sudden needs to do more research, it changes the whole enablement of that team. Right. Um, so I mean, it's, it's a really hard job being in sales.
[00:27:59] I have tremendous respect for them and. You know, when you sit in marketing, you deal a lot in, in the clouds mm-hmm and sales is really in the dirts. It's, are you reaching out, are you being thoughtful in your approach? And you need to deal with rejection and, you know, marketing it's we work on a project two months later, then we'll know we'll know.
[00:28:18] Right. So it's, it's a tough
[00:28:19] Toni: job. No, and I think. What you describing there as one of the biggest friction points between sales and marketing,
[00:28:26] Mikkel: honestly. Oh, totally different ever. So no,
[00:28:29] Toni: but, uh, funny, funny question actually, before we, before we, uh, sign off. Yeah. Uh, where, where should SDRs report into, is it marketing or it sales?
[00:28:38] Mikkel: Oh, I just, I, I'm not good enough. I think at coaching and managing SD. So I think that will be really hard. Yeah. Um, it's again, I think you'd really need to understand the job they perform. And if I were to manage an SDR myself, I actually would require myself to do some calls. Yeah. And I deal really poorly with rejection.