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FUTURE OF XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:04:00 - 00:00:27:14
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. Super excited as usual, but really excited for today's conversation on the future of spatial strategy. we'll learn what spatial strategy is. We'll learn how it's applicable to the modern world and the future world. And with us, we have an expert in spatial strategy, Guray Oskay.
00:00:27:15 - 00:00:33:14
Speaker 1
Guray, thank you so much for being with us today on Future of XYZ.
00:00:33:16 - 00:00:35:21
Speaker 2
And thank you for having me.
00:00:35:23 - 00:01:08:14
Speaker 1
Gary, you're the director of architectural design at, ATÖLYE, which is a strategic design and innovation studio based primarily in Dubai, but also Istanbul. ATÖLYE is a certified B Corp, which is pretty impressive for an architecture and design firm, I have to say. Not easy to achieve, with many, many accolades and awards, including a few iF Design awards, as well as being named a top 25 firm in the Middle East by Architizer recently.
00:01:08:14 - 00:01:10:05
Speaker 1
So congrats for that.
00:01:10:07 - 00:01:12:09
Speaker 2
Thank you. Thank you.
00:01:12:11 - 00:01:34:06
Speaker 1
okay. So we're going to dive right in. you have over 20 years of experience as a practicing architect, and I, I'd say academic based on your background, across Turkey in the Middle East. So with that context and the conversation we're going to have today, we'll start as we always do, which is how do we define spatial strategy?
00:01:34:08 - 00:02:03:08
Speaker 2
Okay. we're going straight to it. the most basic explanation I always have, you know, how we were supposed to think before we speak. Spatial strategy is that for design, for architectural and urban design, at least. a more complex explanation. I usually use is that, relies on the definition of design or the nature of design for that matter.
00:02:03:10 - 00:02:31:05
Speaker 2
design is a very iterative process. You come up with an idea, you prototype it, you try to mature it, you see its flaws, there's a feedback and its design revise, rinse, repeat, kind of, cycle we go through. and that's the nature of it. But that costs time. Spatial strategy is a step before design. We'd like to take, that sets a foundation for us to build the design upon.
00:02:31:07 - 00:02:54:17
Speaker 2
It sets a very clear direction of where we want to go, what we want to achieve, who we want to please, who we want to serve, and how we want to achieve it. And if we do it right, if we create a good enough foundation for ourselves that reduces the amount of iterations and helps us create future proof and fail proof designs.
00:02:54:19 - 00:03:20:12
Speaker 1
That's awesome. I want to talk to a number of those points. All right. So what you've just said is essentially a spatial strategy is a long term vision. That and its guiding location is guiding scale is guiding the type of development. And this is for land use, infrastructure, housing, like all of the urbanization etc.. So at its best, if I understand correctly, it sets a roadmap.
00:03:20:14 - 00:03:43:15
Speaker 1
And I know that, ATÖLYE's particular balance, especially as a B Corp, is really focusing on kind of not only this long, this long term roadmap, but also a long term roadmap that achieves a balanced and sustainable deliverable, if you will. What are the key elements that have to be considered? You started talking about them a little bit and we'll get into stakeholders later.
00:03:43:15 - 00:03:54:16
Speaker 1
But like what are the key elements that must be considered for this to be successfully achieved? As you said, to reduce iterations, but also set yourself up for long term success?
00:03:54:18 - 00:04:17:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, of course, getting to a good end result quicker is always a great win. So you can, you know, serve more, you can create more and use your time wisely. But that's not the main drive, the main drivers to get to a sustainable bit of design and sustainable and product. so, you know, you mentioned the B Corp, obviously sustainability is a primary driver.
00:04:17:18 - 00:04:46:11
Speaker 2
And what we do at ATÖLYE, but I really value a more comprehensive or holistic view of sustainability, actually makes me pretty sad and angry at times. to see that in, in the industry that the concept of sustainability or the term is diminished to a one dimensional environment only, or climate only sustainability is much more than that.
00:04:46:13 - 00:05:15:17
Speaker 2
Of course, we want to be environmentally sustainable, ecologically sustainable, but we also have to be, especially architecture and urbanism has to be, socially, functionally and commercially. sustainable as well, because it's a huge investment. We're spending a lot of resources, money and time and effort, to create a bit of architecture and what we create has to, has to live a long life and serve in the long run.
00:05:15:19 - 00:05:49:24
Speaker 2
So the idea behind spatial strategy is to identify and set realistic and achievable, and quite ambitious goals for sustainability on all fronts and define a path on how to get there. that doesn't start with design. That has to start before design. The second dimension to that, and another thing we're really passionate about, and actually is community engagement.
00:05:50:01 - 00:06:18:11
Speaker 2
And we're not talking just about multiple stakeholders here. We're talking about, including, the stakeholders, the authorities, the policymakers, the end users and the secondary affected community. in the design process, in the decision process, it doesn't have to be, you know, how do you want this to look, but get people's ambitions and needs and ideas in there?
00:06:18:13 - 00:06:30:06
Speaker 2
so it's part of the ingredient mix and it ends up serving them. So sustainability and community engagement are the two keys, I believe.
00:06:30:08 - 00:06:51:22
Speaker 1
it's it's a very different perspective than many, I, I'm we're going to dive into the stakeholder piece and community engagement piece because I think it's really important in general, but also, as you just said, in the built environment. But I want to come back to kind of what long term means, because obviously we're talking about long term strategy.
00:06:51:22 - 00:07:16:13
Speaker 1
And built environments aren't usually hopefully done for five years or ten years. Right. And your work specifically is with leaders across the Middle East and Europe as well, who are shaping these long term futures in conditions that are complex and rapidly changing as everything in the world is. I know because I love geopolitics, and I've lived and traveled a lot in the world.
00:07:16:15 - 00:07:46:01
Speaker 1
Every region and every country kind of has its own cultural history as well as historic history, but also its historic and cultural timelines that it's on, and varying political wills and economic opportunities, etc. like, it's very dynamic, right? But in your experience and in general, when we say long term, like what are the time horizons that you're typically thinking about and working with when you're thinking about spatial strategy.
00:07:46:03 - 00:08:08:03
Speaker 2
That I mean, you touched on something really important. It really depends on, what part of the world we're in, who we're working with, who we're working for. and it really depends on the scale as well. You know, I talked earlier. We work on a very wide spectrum. of scale. It can be just one room to a.
00:08:08:06 - 00:08:49:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, a floor to a building, to a district, to a country. we had spatial strategy projects for an entire emirate. so long term is really, relative and really connected to scale. There, but typically architecture, we're talking about decades. and it kind of makes sense just simply due to the fact that I know I mentioned earlier that the amount of resources we spend, it's just basic return on investment, the amount of resources, materials, money and time we spend, we have to use it for a long time.
00:08:49:16 - 00:09:21:21
Speaker 2
when it comes to districts, the period gets even longer. But then with architecture, too, we talk about another thing, flexibility, the, aspect of design or the capability we built into the design to serve, to cater to needs that are not here yet. and things we make sure that things don't have to be demolished or transformed.
00:09:21:23 - 00:09:51:07
Speaker 2
Just can adapt to future needs. if I don't want to use the word trends because it makes my skin crawl, be basing design decisions on trends. But, way of life changes, technology changes, the way of living, and way of consuming spaces changes. We really need to make sure, what we design, what we build, has the capacity to adapt to, that change.
00:09:51:09 - 00:09:59:14
Speaker 2
but I think all in all, we're starting with decades to maybe 50, 60 years.
00:09:59:16 - 00:10:29:15
Speaker 1
And, and it's interesting because, when we think about the great histories and you live in a region that is rich with, with long, long history. right. And, and you think about what they were building for and you wonder if their spatial strategy of the Roman to the Greeks, of the Persians, you know, really actually took into account like, you know, 50, 60 year horizons or if they were actually thinking thousands and thousands of years where they weren't thinking at all.
00:10:29:15 - 00:10:52:04
Speaker 1
It was based on technology. in that context, I, I want to stop on time because it could become philosophical very, very quickly. And you're living in a region of the world where it's very, rife right now as a conversation for important reasons. but too often, I think for non design people, design is kind of a form factor, right?
00:10:52:09 - 00:11:18:10
Speaker 1
It's a thing. It's a beauty. And and that's true if we're thinking about the environment especially. But like objects are that way services platforms. But in the environment it really reflects and massively impacts human well-being human behavior, human culture, human use. And as you said, also the environment. So a few quick answer questions related to that. And it's and it's largely on the stakeholder topic.
00:11:18:12 - 00:11:33:09
Speaker 1
There are so many stakeholders when you start thinking in longer horizons, whether you're talking ten years, 50 years or a thousand years, right. How does one account in spatial strategy for all those stakeholders?
00:11:33:11 - 00:12:01:11
Speaker 2
The most basic answer is just you talk to people, and you get a good understanding of history. you have a good understanding of demographics, and you immerse yourself in culture deeply and try to, understand the projection of the future and where that might go and how people's lives change and keep people involved in the process as much as possible.
00:12:01:13 - 00:12:28:19
Speaker 1
I love that, I mean, I'm trying to think there are there are always going to be different competing needs and demands and wishes and wills of different stakeholders. Right? So yes, you talk, yes, you listen, but you can't account for all of them. So how do you translate these complex and competing needs of different stakeholders into a spatial strategy that actually gets buy in and then holds through the timeline that you're anticipating?
00:12:28:21 - 00:12:56:06
Speaker 2
Oh, we were talking about this just the other day. because I tell you also develops, learning programs. And we were talking about how we can use architectural practice, to talk about leadership decisions. And we were, I used the analogy of, designers hate sky's the limit. briefs, you know, design whatever you want. We hate that you become a deer in headlights because there's nothing to hold on to.
00:12:56:07 - 00:12:58:02
Speaker 2
There's nothing to anchor your ideas.
00:12:58:02 - 00:12:59:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Design needs constraints.
00:13:00:00 - 00:13:39:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, we love constraints because that's where creativity, is born out of. So what we arrived in is architecture is not about answering every need and catering to every request. It's about orchestrating them and prioritizing them, in the most efficient manner. it's about having the courage to dismiss some of them. and it is a very courageous thing to do that, you need a lot of experience to dismiss the right things and prioritize the right things.
00:13:39:10 - 00:14:05:20
Speaker 2
of course, often we make mistakes. And as a backup, like I said, we try to create flexible solutions that if the situation changes, the spaces can adapt. but the short answer is, we don't just cater to every need. We don't answer every call. We orchestrate the plethora of constraints into a cohesive structure.
00:14:05:22 - 00:14:21:15
Speaker 1
It's extremely well articulated. I can I can see the process happening. Is this what one option here is considered like community driven design, or is it different?
00:14:21:17 - 00:15:04:17
Speaker 2
In a way. in a way, we I wouldn't call it community driven. but community is always a priority in our tool belt. the community engagement is the first thing we do as long as we have the opportunity to do it. Sometimes projects are too fast paced. Sometimes, projects are confidential. sometimes the client just wants to focus on a certain group of people, and we're not allowed to, but when we're designing things like train stations and schools, if you're designing a school, you just don't talk to, the administrators and the teachers along.
00:15:04:18 - 00:15:23:19
Speaker 2
You talk to the kids, you talk to the parents, and you talk to the people living in the neighborhood who don't have kids. because that school is in their neighborhood and it's part of their life, and it serves them all. So, getting more and more information can only do you good and can only help you serve people better.
00:15:23:21 - 00:15:59:18
Speaker 1
I appreciate that. I mean, obviously, we've talked about how impactful the built environment is on the human experience. and space really can and should, I think, support human well-being in very thoughtful ways. And you're talking about repurpose, you know, adaptability, etc. for the future. Is this again coming back to just technicality and spatial strategy and what you all do specifically, what is the role of what we call human centered design thinking in spatial strategy?
00:15:59:18 - 00:16:06:15
Speaker 1
Is it different than the stakeholder and community engagement piece, or is it all related?
00:16:06:17 - 00:16:46:18
Speaker 2
To be honest, I don't know what non-human centric design is if it even exist. or if we should even be talking about it. Design is human centric, period. at least it should be. so in a way, yes, it is all about, human centric design and, when you. There's a definition where architects define what they do as, you know, designing an experience or designing people's behaviors, that that's the attitude I really despise.
00:16:46:21 - 00:17:23:04
Speaker 2
You know, architects playing God. You don't design experiences. You don't design or dictate behavior. you understand behavior and translate that into space. So it happens the right way. You can enhance them. You can enable, good experiences, but one just doesn't design, behaviors. So human centric design is for me about understanding people. I once wrote an article that, highlighted the similarity between design and translation.
00:17:23:04 - 00:17:58:20
Speaker 2
I really think of design, as a form of translation. What what does a translator do? They read the source material, they understand it, they interpret it, and then they rewrite it in another language. So I say, what if we can treat everything as language? like, you know, Wittgenstein, Wittgenstein did and just translate communities, translate people into spaces, then they end up being at the heart of that bit of design.
00:17:58:22 - 00:18:02:21
Speaker 2
and that, to me is the definition of human centered design.
00:18:02:23 - 00:18:28:20
Speaker 1
I love that. and then when we think about other stakeholders and then I'll get off the stakeholder topic, but I think the built environment is really relevant. You talked before about sustainability often just looks at the environmental impact. I mean, you're working largely in the Middle East. Lots of the Middle East is is dry, arid. And then there's also a ton of water and things like in Istanbul and the Bosphorus and the Persian Gulf and, and so many other waterways that matter.
00:18:28:20 - 00:18:48:08
Speaker 1
But it is complex. These environmental systems are fragile. how do you think about the environment in spatial strategy? And is that increasingly becoming a stakeholder that people are talking about? I know in your work it is. But generally, more broadly speaking, how do you see that evolving in the future of spatial strategy?
00:18:48:10 - 00:19:18:08
Speaker 2
there are two things that I really value. one of them is by starting with the question, do we really have to build, and do we really need something new or does what we have size or just needs fixing? So that's, one aspect of it. The other thing is, forget what people do everywhere else and what looks good and what's trending on the architectural, magazines and websites.
00:19:18:10 - 00:19:48:02
Speaker 2
where are you building? Who are you building this for, and what are the conditions and how have people been dealing with this for the last, you know, ten years, 50 years, centuries? geographically and culturally rooted architecture, goes a long way. you know, you and I had a chat before, and I mentioned where working on a school project right now, in the Middle East, in Abu Dhabi.
00:19:48:04 - 00:20:10:20
Speaker 2
And it really saddens me to see children spending so little time outdoors simply due to the climate. And the solution to that is create big indoor spaces, you know, bust out the air conditioner, and so children can run and play. But no, you know, Emiratis know how to deal with the climate because they have built beautiful villages.
00:20:10:22 - 00:20:41:06
Speaker 2
they had education, they had social life. It was just, you know, scattered buildings, narrow alleyways, courtyards, shade. Can we learn from that? Turns out, yes, we can, of course, that all you need is a courageous client to trust that vision, say, well, we need air conditioning. Yes, we will, but it will be much more environmentally conscious and we will allow children to spend more time outdoors, which we know is crucial for their physical and cognitive development.
00:20:41:06 - 00:20:59:16
Speaker 2
And, where does that come from? Just understanding where you're building, how people have been building their understanding history and culture, way of life and just have a contemporary, understanding of it and reinterpreted really.
00:20:59:18 - 00:21:21:24
Speaker 1
it's it's it's fantastic. Okay. So, I want to do another quick, quick round, working at the intersection of architecture experience, design and community led thinking. As you as you said at the beginning, I'm curious about each and how they interrelate. So for each of the areas I'll mention, can you briefly share? And of course, I'm going to give you like five things I want to know about each.
00:21:21:24 - 00:21:40:10
Speaker 1
But can you briefly share what it is, but also where it fits into the future of spatial strategy and its power within that and i.e., why it matters. And the first, of course, is, is is space. So yeah.
00:21:40:12 - 00:22:04:09
Speaker 2
What I love about working at ATÖLYE is that very multidisciplinary nature of it. We basically have three verticals where, at the end of a refresh, we're just about to, publish our new phase. We have rebranded and renamed the three practices. The first one is ATÖLYE space, the architectural practice for where we designed built environments from rooms to districts.
00:22:04:11 - 00:22:41:08
Speaker 2
The second one is ATÖLYE 360, where we design experiences and do service design. everything from digital to big events and, complex experiences. And the third one is ATÖLYE Academy, where we design learning programs, curriculums, and whatnot. Of course, where we thrive is when we do these, you know, woven to each other. Sometimes we we are approached by clients that have big transformational goals that doesn't necessarily start with architecture.
00:22:41:08 - 00:22:59:05
Speaker 2
It's about changing the government, school system, a better education system, or, creating a new generation of young government officials that are well versed in design thinking and can become chief design officers in their government entities.
00:22:59:07 - 00:23:01:05
Speaker 1
Love that.
00:23:01:07 - 00:23:32:06
Speaker 2
And when we start these processes, it sometimes, you know, forks into beautiful roads. We say, okay, this has a spatial implication, this has an experience implication. And we bring our teams together. For example, in the example of government in state education, it was just about curriculum and we ended up designing pilot schools because the curriculum we came up with required some interventions in the existing schools.
00:23:32:08 - 00:23:50:04
Speaker 2
And we worked on, okay, how do we do this with very little budgets and very small interventions to make sure this works. And our experience team design beautiful experiences on how to onboard teachers, how to onboard educators, and our learning design team designs this curriculum and everything is interconnected.
00:23:50:10 - 00:24:05:06
Speaker 1
And so actually spatial strategy, you've answered the question in a circle by saying that they're all interconnected. Spatial strategy isn't just about the built environment, it's about the experiences within it and how you educate for the future and the use cases, etc..
00:24:05:08 - 00:24:12:20
Speaker 2
Spatial strategy cannot be thought of without experience. It's impossible. Experience is an integral part of it.
00:24:12:22 - 00:24:35:00
Speaker 1
And I love that. I'm really sorry to say that, it's been for me many, many years, over a decade since I was last, in, in, in the UAE specifically or even in Turkey. it's kind of embarrassing, but I was there a lot during the aughts, kind of the mid late aughts and, and it was incredible how quickly it was developing.
00:24:35:04 - 00:24:56:22
Speaker 1
It was kind of like this, like you kind of had a sense that you were like in a master plan coming to life, especially Dubai. Right. I like you am really interested in, and I've read this in other of your interviews, like there's what you call the blurred edges of the city, right? Like where the public and private meet, where plan systems meet the informality.
00:24:56:22 - 00:25:23:17
Speaker 1
As you said, designers can't plan the behavior or the use, right? Like you can only understand it and do the best you can to enable it. But design quietly shapes everything, and especially in a city environment or in a master planned environment. Can you talk more about this, especially as we think about a future where the population is growing and in time, you know, urban centers are also expanding?
00:25:23:19 - 00:25:50:09
Speaker 2
This has, I think, a lot to do with, again, engaging the community early on because that, really ensures ownership and belonging. And we believe belonging goes a long way. So when you design, even though an art as an architect, you might be obsessed with the smallest details all the way to the doorknobs and the lighting and etc. whatever you do, the end product is unfinished.
00:25:50:11 - 00:26:08:11
Speaker 2
very much similar to a book. You write a novel, you believe it's finished. It's not finished until someone reads it and you have no idea how they're going to interpret it. it's only finished when it's read. A movie is only finished when it's viewed. it doesn't sit in a room, which is very much like that.
00:26:08:13 - 00:26:33:18
Speaker 2
It is only finished when someone actually starts living in that, it has a much longer lifespan, so it starts evolving because people make it their own. So for years I, I myself misinterpreted that saying we need to stop design at such a level. It should be intentionally unfinished so people can finish, you know, you finish it, and then people take over and make it their own.
00:26:33:24 - 00:27:02:17
Speaker 2
So it happens with architecture, it happens with urbanism. And people start transforming it and it becomes a living organism of its own. And it's inevitable. Sometimes it works and it becomes something spectacular. you and I talked about Hong Kong, how that life crept up to first and second floor from ground floor without any design intention. It just happened that people took over the upper floors.
00:27:02:19 - 00:27:37:08
Speaker 2
sometimes it, you know, goes on a really different direction where you go, oh, we didn't create a good enough foundation. And people turned it into this horrible state. and that's where spatial strategy comes in. We have to have an idea of how people are going to use this and what they might turn it into to give them the right options to enable good possibilities.
00:27:37:10 - 00:27:56:00
Speaker 1
that we are I could talk about this forever. to be really honest, it's fascinating. we're coming up on time, but I have a very, very quick, like, 1 to 2 word answer round. Before we get to the final question, are you ready for it? This is like speed dating. Okay, okay. Quick answer on the best example.
00:27:56:04 - 00:28:01:19
Speaker 1
You think of spatial strategy in the entire history of the world.
00:28:01:21 - 00:28:13:07
Speaker 2
Oh, wow. that is that is really tough.
00:28:13:09 - 00:28:13:24
Speaker 2
Let's circle back to this.
00:28:14:08 - 00:28:17:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, we can circle back. Sorry. It's a big question. I should have given it to you before.
00:28:17:14 - 00:28:20:04
Speaker 2
You really caught me off guard. Haha.
00:28:20:06 - 00:28:24:08
Speaker 1
your favorite city and why? In the context of spatial strategy.
00:28:24:10 - 00:28:40:07
Speaker 2
Istanbul? because it's so, so, so, multilayered. no matter what you design, those layers keep creeping up and interfering with one another. You strategize, but it always finds its own way.
00:28:40:09 - 00:28:48:02
Speaker 1
I love that. The biggest hurdle for human centered spatial strategy in the next ten years?
00:28:48:04 - 00:28:58:22
Speaker 2
Politicians not speaking to people and making really stupid policies, with no regard to actual human behavior.
00:28:58:24 - 00:29:02:18
Speaker 1
The biggest opportunity for spatial strategy in the next ten years.
00:29:02:20 - 00:29:13:18
Speaker 2
Politicians starting to listen, and actually, taking in, just insights. They don't have to do what people tell them to do. They just have to listen.
00:29:13:24 - 00:29:23:00
Speaker 1
I love that the number one regulatory issue in regards to spatial strategy, either at a global or regional level?
00:29:23:02 - 00:29:27:03
Speaker 2
More pedestrian priority.
00:29:27:05 - 00:29:35:03
Speaker 1
the most promising innovation that will affect or support social, spatial strategy.
00:29:35:05 - 00:29:44:08
Speaker 2
better use of data. So yeah, I am going to say AI, you know, okay, with a little cringing expression.
00:29:44:11 - 00:29:59:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. The for the listeners. Yeah. That's that was the that was the facial expression. I love that the state of teaching spatial strategy in higher education, including in architecture, and how we futureproof this practice?
00:30:00:01 - 00:30:17:00
Speaker 2
I think we should start teaching about strategy, not just spatial strategy, about strategic thinking at earlier stage of education, stages of education, you know, middle school onwards. Love that. spatial strategy should be part of, architectural curriculum.
00:30:17:02 - 00:30:28:07
Speaker 1
you want to circle back to the, the first question, the best example of spatial strategy in the entire history of the built environment.
00:30:28:09 - 00:30:54:05
Speaker 2
I'm not a fan of it, but, in the in the book, what was it called? Mutations. REM course and Harvard School of Design have a section called How to Build a Roman City. There's a beautiful, very clear strategy on how to build a Roman city. I know it's very imperial and it's a horrible answer, but it is a magnificent, built up spatial strategy.
00:30:54:05 - 00:30:55:06
Speaker 2
And one can't deny that.
00:30:55:09 - 00:30:57:20
Speaker 1
I think I think.
00:30:57:22 - 00:31:03:18
Speaker 2
Ancient cities, Greek and Roman cities. that's an amazing bit of spatial strategy.
00:31:03:24 - 00:31:09:23
Speaker 1
Now, I couldn't agree more. I think that's fascinating. Okay. Thank you for that, final question.
00:31:10:00 - 00:31:11:05
Speaker 2
Okay.
00:31:11:07 - 00:31:23:23
Speaker 1
In conclusion, I ask every guest the same thing, just like I ask the same first question. What is your greatest hope for the future spatial strategy in 25 years? So that puts us roughly at 2050.
00:31:24:00 - 00:31:38:11
Speaker 2
In very simple terms, to see it being practiced by everyone, all stakeholders, willingly and, positively. That’s my hope.
00:31:39:24 - 00:31:55:17
Speaker 1
I love that. Guray Oskay of ATÖLYE in Istanbul and Dubai and soon to be Hong Kong, thank you so, so much for joining us on Future of XYZ today, talking about the future of spatial strategy. This has been a real, real pleasure.
00:31:55:19 - 00:31:58:13
Speaker 2
You have the pleasure all mine. Thank you very much.
00:31:58:15 - 00:32:24:18
Speaker 1
For everyone watching. If you didn't know, you can listen everywhere. You get your favorite podcasts, make sure to subscribe to Future of XYZ and leave us a five star review on your favorite platform so that others can find us. If you're listening, you can also watch on YouTube. all of these episodes are recorded and uploaded at Future of XYZ, or ifdesign.com/xyz, for all links.
00:32:24:20 - 00:32:32:07
Speaker 1
we look forward to seeing you again in two weeks time. Again, Guray, thank you so much. And we will see you all very soon.
00:32:32:09 - 00:32:33:20
Speaker 2
Thank you. Bye bye.