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The Feel Good Podcast aims to unpack what it means to be a man in the modern world. In each episode, we explore the evolving landscape of masculinity through open, honest conversations with guests from all walks of life, from sport and the military to leadership, mental health and the arts.
We challenge outdated narratives and dig into topics like emotional resilience, connection, identity and purpose. Our aim is to create a space where men can reflect, feel seen, and start to ask deeper questions about who they are and who they want to become.
Whether you're curious about redefining strength, navigating vulnerability, or simply looking for more meaning in how you show up day to day – this podcast is for you.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Feel Good for Men Who Want Change, the podcast for guys who feel left out or left behind, but know there's some things they want to change. Today, I'm joined by Steve Cardwell, founder of Deliberate Dad, a coaching system that helps fathers who are feeling like they have no time to take deliberate action to set standards and make sure they're giving attention where it's needed most. Now, as you'll hear, Steve is very much in the thick of this. He's got a three year old and a 10 old, and of course, running his own business. But it was a Scotch egg moment, which you'll hear about on a on a birthday of his that made him reflect on why he was making the choices that he was.
Tim:He felt like he was living on autopilot and needed to take some deliberate action to make sure that when he looked back, when he was ten years older, fifteen years older, twenty years older, he felt good about the choices he'd made. And I think this is so important. So many of us as dads, making some choices based on a script we were given by our fathers, by society, and without examining that, it can be really easy to end up in a place we don't want to be, whether that's at work, with your relationship, with your health. And so Steve's work is all about making us examine those choices that we're making and live a deliberate life thereafter. Please enjoy my conversation with Steve.
Tim:And if you like what you hear, please like, subscribe and share it with someone who might need to hear. Steve, welcome to the podcast.
Steve:Thank you, Tim.
Tim:I wanted to check first of all because we've been doing a little work together this morning. We've both banged back a few coffees. How's the energy levels? I know you've got a 10 old at home.
Steve:Energy's alright. Sleep sleep's okay at the minute, Tim. I think we're through the worst of it. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:Okay. Although, as I was saying before, he's just started nursery, so it's just the annoying coughing in the middle of the night because he's basically been sick for six weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Standard go to nursery, one week on, one week off.
Steve:Yeah. But you're still paying for it. So that's
Tim:good. Yeah. Perfect. Honestly, it's the it's the business that we all need to be in. Somehow, they they make a killing from, having our kids at home.
Steve:I know. Well, I mean, when I went in there, sometimes they're definitely earning their money. So I'm I'm I'm not gonna criticize. They they're saints in there. They deserve paid a lot more.
Tim:That's true. And you've got a a three year old as well. Is
Steve:that right? A three year old as well. Yeah. So she's he's more the coughing and crying. She's more
Tim:the daddy.
Steve:I need to go to the toilet for him.
Tim:Yeah. So when we talk about all this stuff, you know, and then we'll come on to like what you do in parenting and deliberate dads, you are coming from a position of authority, being in the thick of it with a three year old and a 10 old.
Steve:Yeah. I mean, this year it's been quite the year, you know. You've got you have conversations with, like, friends and they go, oh, yeah. The the jump from one to two is a bit crazy. And you go, oh, yeah.
Tim:That's fine.
Steve:I've been doing this for three years. I'll be fine. Yeah. And you're like, oh, yeah. No.
Steve:That is it's been mental. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I I but I think that's a lot of the parenting things.
Steve:Right? Like, there's this idea that I heard on a podcast. There's some lessons that, like, are unlearnable. Yes. Like, you read the thing Yes.
Steve:You know about the thing and you listen to the podcast about the thing and you watch the YouTube video and a million people say it
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:But until you actually do it, until you actually live it, you can't quite grasp it. Right? And I think that's having kids or having two kids or any of those types of scenarios.
Tim:100%. One of the most unhelpful bits of advice I think is saying, well, you know, make sure you cherish the moments when they're young because they're not gonna be around forever. I'm like, I know that. I want to, but I'm really tired.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. There's a reason why they're all cliches. Right? Yeah.
Steve:Because they're actually true.
Tim:Yeah, absolutely. But now mine are nine and eight, and I look back at pictures of when they were two and three or two and four, whatever, I'm like, did I cherish them enough? I hope so, I think so, but at the time you're just in it,
Steve:you know? Yeah, mean, we'll get on to it, but that's one of the things about my work, is like trying to acknowledge the moments and yeah, I think especially when they're very young, like we've had, because the stages change so quickly, I'm sure they change a get or a little bit less often Yeah. As they get a little bit older. But I was sort of saying there, we moved Pearl into her new room now that Lenny's got
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:You know, her old room. She's in a big girl bed. And the first night, like, I tucked her in there. Yeah. I was quite emotional.
Steve:Yeah. I'm like, shit, like, this is, like, starting to get to the end. I mean, I actually get emotional thinking about it now. Yeah. This is starting to get to the end of, you know, this phase.
Steve:Yeah. And actually it doesn't, it doesn't last forever. And we went to see a primary school the other day as well and sort of the same thing. Yeah. It's like, like, how am I sitting here?
Steve:Yeah. It does actually go so fast.
Tim:Yeah, it's terrifying. Well, we'll come on to the work you do with dads and how you try and get us to live in those moments. But I think it'd be wrong not to think about the how this all came to be and how it started. And for you, there was this, we can describe it as the Scotch egg moment, but I know it aligned with the birthday. Tell us a bit about this sort of reflection point you had and how this all came to be.
Steve:Yeah. It's just a good sticky sticky name, a Scotch egg moment. Feel real alive. Like, what the hell are you talking about a Scotch egg for? But, yes, no, I I think, like, with a lot of people, it would be great if this was avoidable.
Steve:Right? Yeah. But, like, for a lot of people, there's usually a point. Right? There's usually some kind of, like, crisis point that makes them think, alright.
Steve:Is this it? Or do I want to continue down the path that I'm on? Or do I want to change it? And for me, it was I remember very vividly the the Scotch egg moment was my birthday in 2019, so, like, six years ago. And the reason why it's a Scotch egg is I'm more into baked goods than cakes.
Steve:My wife brought me in a Scotch egg with a candle and we had this tradition of having birthday breakfast, so we went in. And at the time, I've been working for myself for quite a number of years and I was running a business in advertising and marketing at the time, but I always had in the back of my mind, is this what I want to do? Am I having the dent in the world that I want to, like, or am I getting stressed about all these things that ultimately, like, I don't really care about? Yeah. Right?
Steve:There was something there. And I think I put myself under quite a lot of pressure. Yeah. Like, I have high standards for myself. I wanna squeeze the potential out of my life.
Steve:And her just bringing this in for some reason was, like, a real trigger for me to go, like, the flood gets sort of opened. I started was got really upset, started crying, and didn't really know what it was. And I think it was just, a release, you know, someone doing something really nice for me. But I suppose I had two choices after that. It was, okay, just let it go.
Steve:It was a bit of a weird anomaly or decide that this is like a good kicking off point to do something, right? Like to take responsibility for my life. And I think like up to that point in my twenties and early thirties, I always had the thing in the back of my mind, like I said. But I always thought that things would work out. Mhmm.
Steve:Right? Something would appear. Mhmm. An opportunity would happen. And I'd be like, oh, That would that would solve it.
Steve:Yeah. That'll be the thing. That'll be the ticket. That'll be the unlock. But then it got to that point, I'm like, if I'm sitting here in ten years thinking this exact same thing, like, have no one to blame but myself.
Steve:Yeah. Right? So that was when I started, you know, taking responsibility, started taking some action. I ended up hiring a coach, which got me on this path that I'm now, but tried lots of different things, experimented, how can I find a bit more purpose, how can I be a bit more happy, content, comfortable with the path that I'm on? But that was sort of the trigger for it, that Scotch Egg moment.
Tim:And did you have a sense of what was missing or what you were perhaps aiming for but weren't quite making progress against?
Steve:I think, like, a lot of us, it gets dressed up in work a lot. Right? So, like and I get this with my clients as well. It's like, all my work is unfulfilling. So therefore, if I change my work, then that will give me what I'm looking for.
Steve:Right? Or this idea of purpose. Right? I think I was like, I'm not as indoctrinated in an eye, but I was then. Right?
Steve:You know, like, oh, why can I not find my purpose? What is it? And I think we try and find it through work a lot. Yeah. Or we think that that's the obvious thing to solve.
Steve:And, like, obviously I have changed career, right? So, like, have made moves in that, but I've also made moves across all the other aspects of my life as well. So, and I usually, like, I thought it was work, but actually what it was was taking lots of actions across all areas of my life to lift everything up a bit.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:And of course, as I said, I eventually changed my career, but that wasn't necessarily a problem. But I think it was like this idea of lack of purpose was the thing that was triggering it.
Tim:And were you enjoying work at the time, your work? What were you doing?
Steve:I was doing sort of advertising production. Yeah. So, like, I was working for myself. Yeah. I was in, like, the booze industry, right?
Steve:You know? Loft's still full of free balls of gin. Okay. So, like, there's there's, like, obvious perks to it and I really enjoyed it. But I think, yeah, I think it was more a lack of, like, conscious decision making, I think was the key thing when I reflect back on it.
Steve:You know, I think a lot of us get caught in this trap of not necessarily thinking through the decisions that we're making. Mhmm. So we live, like, unconsciously or live on default mode that I sort of talk about. And an opportunity was presented in front of me, so I took that opportunity. Yeah.
Steve:Someone said, oh, Well, why don't you like, that's a really great idea if you worked in booze. Why don't you pitch this idea and get me some investment? Like, yeah. Cool idea. And although I'd I suppose from the outside, it looked like I'd consciously chosen Yeah.
Steve:Because I was self employed, because I ran a couple of businesses. When I actually reflect back on it, I probably took the thing that was in front of me, the easier choice without actually really interrogating what I wanted to get out of it.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. A 100. Yeah. And then once you're on that path, it's almost like it narrows the aperture of your sort of lens of life, right?
Tim:Because the path is just, well, I'll just continue to be a bit more senior on that track, or maybe I'll make a slightly sideways move, but no, this my lane now.
Steve:Yeah, totally, totally. And then it feels much harder to actually step out of it as well, the further you get along in the path.
Tim:Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned there sort of default versus deliberate. I think it's worth just defining those terms as you use them and talking about the difference between them. So tell us a bit what you mean by living by default and then trying to move to living deliberately.
Steve:Yeah, I think like my, sort of what I was talking there about this idea of living by default is almost on autopilot, right? So you get a job at 22, 23, so then you go to the next level, and you go to the next level, and you go to the next level. And a lot of people, when they get to, like, the late thirties or early forties, they're like, what the fuck just happened in the last twenty years? So I haven't actually consciously chosen the things that are happening. And I think the work I do with dads, it becomes even more easy to slip into autopilot because of just the volume of things that we have to do.
Steve:Yeah. You know, this like the you think that you're busy before you have kids, and then when you have kids, you're like, holy shit. Yeah.
Tim:What was I doing with all my spare
Steve:time? Yeah. Was I doing with all this time? So just the obviously having a kid's one of the, you know, most fulfilling things in the world, but there's a list of obligations almost, right, that are stuck with that commitment. So if you wanna be, you know, a present if you wanna be the dad of man you wanna be, right, like you're showing up, you're trying to be present, but also you've to do the shopping, you've got to do the dishes, you've got to change the nappies, you've got to put the kids to bed, plus you've got to go to work, plus then you've to pay the bills, plus all of these things.
Steve:You end up slipping into autopilot really easily across all areas of your life, right, with your work, your relationship with your partner, your wife, with the style of parenting even, like just getting through the days. That is sort of what I talk about with default, it's almost like head down. Whereas the flip side, like deliberately, is trying to pause and consciously realize the choices and decisions that you're making. Right? So, like, you know, what you are doing with your with your work, what you are doing with kids, how you're parenting, what you are doing with your wife, your partner, and making sure that the actions that you take off the back of that are aligned with that person.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And where did the dad element come into it? Because the Scotchegg moment was before you had kids, right?
Steve:Yeah, it was.
Tim:Yeah. So was it about kids being a catalyst for change? Was it about that being an inflection point for you? How did that come to be?
Steve:I think the I probably hadn't properly articulated the default deliberate until I had kids, right? And almost like reflecting back on how I'd seen that sort of pre 2019 period, as I sort of alluded to. And then also when you become a dad, just the ease that you could slip into this autopilot. And I also sort of, you know, was living deliberately taking some actions and experiments
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:On other areas of my life. But when we had Pearl, you know, those first six months, like, caught myself slipping back into it. Right? Like, this preconceived idea of, like, what a dad is was in my mind that I hadn't necessarily consciously decided. Mhmm.
Steve:So this default mode was to sacrifice myself, to not look after myself, to go to the gym, to I work from home at the time and, you know, I kept running out and helping my wife. Yeah. And the consequences of that were I was working till, like, seven, eight at night until it got to a point where she was like, why the fuck are you coming out during the day all the time? Like, I'd much rather you concentrate on your work and come out at 06:00. And that's the sort of really good, like, illustration of default versus deliberate.
Steve:We think that we're doing the right things. We think that sacrificing ourselves as a as a parent is the right thing to do. But actually, for the outcome, Yeah. Being a present dad or supporting your partner doing that, it wasn't actually a good move for that. So I think, like, the the catalyst for the dad work was it's really easy to slip into default mode Yeah.
Steve:As a dad, sort of what I was saying about the volume. And also it like, I think the purpose question Mhmm. For a lot of for a lot of, men get sold when you become a dad. Yeah. I was like, for me, like, yes.
Steve:Of course. I wanna find purpose in all areas of my life, but it's really good to have to not just think about you. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually like a relief.
Steve:Right? Yeah. Yeah. To put to put someone else's needs ahead of yours.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and it almost becomes very evident what your role then is, to be a dad.
Steve:Yeah, totally.
Tim:And I suppose like with that said, to play devil's advocate a little bit, like what's wrong with living on default mode? Like where can it lead people astray? Because I guess I can imagine some people or some people even I know have just been, look, it's fine. Like, you know, I'm paying the bills, job's going all right. You know, I do the football matches at the kids or I do the theater or whatever it is, but like, it's fine.
Tim:Just, I don't need more. Like what do you think is missing potentially when people are living on autopilot or dads are living in default?
Steve:I mean, like what I talk about all the time is defining your own standards, right? Our expectations of what you want to be as a dad, as a man, and in your own life, right? And there's no judgment on my part to go like, if someone is totally happy with that, then that's great. Yeah. But then is that living on autopilot?
Steve:Yeah. Right? It's not really because they've actually constantly decided that they're happy with that. I think what I tend to find is people have that, I suppose, nagging feeling in the back of their mind that they're not showing up to be the person that they want to be, So whether it's in individual areas of their lives or from a wider perspective as a man or as a dad. So, there's something there that's going like, I know I have more to give or I'm not maximizing my potential or if I could just operate at a higher level, I'd feel more fulfilled than everything that I would want.
Steve:Or the outcomes would be better for for everyone around me. I think that's usually the nagging thing that gets people to move. And I think, like, having more conversations with men and dads. Yeah. That's definitely that's definitely the thing.
Steve:And I think a lot of people that come to me, sort of what we were talking about, earlier before we recorded, is there's people that go head down and don't really reflect, but there's also a subsection of men and dads that are very self aware. And that's those are the ones with a nagging feeling in the back of their mind. Right? Like, they want to show up the best that they can, but either they feel stuck because they don't really know what to do, or they feel like they can't do it at the moment or it's not really an option for them because of the volume of activities. They're so busy, they don't have enough time.
Tim:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, certainly for the men I speak to, it almost feels indulgent, right? Because if you are subscribed to that classic masculine stereotype of like provider protector, stoic, or, you know, an interpretation of stoicism. Like, I'll just crack on. I'll do my job.
Tim:I'll get pissed at the weekend and we'll repeat. And to indulge, so to speak, in, you know, self work to perhaps think about a different way you could do things feels like a luxury.
Steve:Totally. And I think, like, one of the things that I always work on with people in that that first sort of iteration and I talk about all the time or first conversations is flipping your perspective on that, right? Because actually the game of being a good dad or being a good man or being a good husband or showing up in work or growing your own business it's not exactly a short term gig. Yeah. Is it?
Steve:Yeah. Absolutely not. Like, what we need is consistent habits, right? Like consistency to be able to show up for a long period of time. But if you haven't, like, been able to build those habits, then it's really hard to to do that.
Steve:So, like, if you're running yourself into the grind constantly, you know, sacrificing yourself, in the short term, it might feel like it's the right thing to do. And you can run like that for a reasonable period of time, right? Like you can do it, it's doable, but you will burn out eventually, right? And you will not get the results that you actually want. So like the perspective flip on that is one of the things that I call being deliberately selfish, which is putting yourself first, totally for you.
Steve:Right? Yeah. To feel good about yourself. Right? To feel fit, to feel healthy, to do the work that you want to do, to spend time with your friends, to spend time with your kids, etcetera, etcetera.
Steve:But it's also to show up for everyone and everything that matters to you. Yeah. Right? So, like, if you're feeling good about yourself, if you've been to the gym a few times a week, if you've seen your mates playing five a side Yeah. If you've been able to have a couple of beers Yeah.
Steve:Every couple of weeks, whatever you wanna do, like, will you be more present as a dad when the kids come home from school from three to five? Probably, right?
Tim:Probably in a better mood, right? So you don't snap at them or whatever it may be.
Steve:Totally. Yeah. So it's just that perspective shift. It's like, and with both of those, like both of those could equally be true. Yeah.
Steve:But it's just one, which one you choose.
Tim:Yeah. And when do you find that men are and dads are like reaching out to you for support? Is it because there's a nagging feeling that they can't quite name? Is it because they're at breaking point? Is it a bit of both?
Tim:Like, is there a theme that you find dad's going help?
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. I think like at this stage, there's different specific problems, but usually it comes from a lack of time or energy in a certain area of their life, right? So like, you know, I talked about sacrificing yourself, so I don't have time for myself. I put everyone else ahead of me.
Steve:I'm struggling to balance the time between work and family. Or I feel guilty when I'm at work because I'm not with the kids or I feel guilty at home. Or I'm multitasking a lot, so I don't feel like I'm anywhere because I don't have enough time. Yeah. So there's usually some kind of like time or juggle Yeah.
Steve:Or balance aspect to it. It just depends on on the person.
Tim:And what do you find they typically like, what do dads actually need most when they're feeling like this?
Steve:Yeah. It's a really interesting question. And like, I think it's something that I try to like really work on and articulate because I think like with guys and men especially, you know, I qualified as, a life coach, right? And when I try and talk to guys about, oh, why don't you sign up with a life coach? They're like, what the fuck would I I'm not doing crystals and all of that stuff, right?
Steve:And I had that perception, right, of coaching before I did it. Like, we don't really know what it is, so exactly like we talked about before.
Tim:100%.
Steve:Like, don't know what it is. Like, we know what going to a gym is, right? And we know what a PT is, but we don't know what this element of coaching is. So, like, what I've tried to do is really, like, articulate clearly, like, what I do with people and how I help them do that. So I think, like, the main three areas that really help guys or dads in specific parts of their lives with young children and with all these demands, the first part is actually to take responsibility.
Steve:Sort of what I said before, it's like you have to want to do something. You have gotta go right, actually, yes, there might not be a perfect solution I can get to at this point, but there is some action that I can take and look inward and go like let's ignore that not ignore, sorry, let's take into account the external
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:But, like, let's focus on me. Yeah. Like, how can I operate at a higher level? So that's why I call, like, the the program the deliberate operating system. Right?
Steve:Yeah. Okay. So it's, how can I operate at a higher level? Like, what can I install? And the three main problems, right, like, the first one is clarity.
Steve:So I've got so much to do. Are there so many things that I want to do? I don't know what to do. Yeah. Right?
Steve:So you either get into this procrastination, you don't do anything. Yeah. Or you start overthinking. Or they overwhelm. It's like you just pick random things, but it's not necessarily the most important thing.
Steve:Yeah. So actually helping, like the solution to that is like helping dad sort of define what I call seasons, what season of life that they're in at the moment, what are the external factors that are going on. And it makes some choices. Right? Yeah.
Steve:But on a very short term basis. Yeah. So I want my life to look like this in five or ten years. Cool. Yeah.
Steve:But, like, let's not care about that right now. What are we gonna do in the next six weeks? Yeah. To create that movement and momentum. And then the other part, like, obviously, the time problem is, like, alright.
Steve:Okay. But I don't I don't have time to do anything. Like, I can't or I jump in for a week to the gym, but then can't keep consistent. So we go, like, how do we make action easy? Like, what systems and structures Mhmm.
Steve:Can we put into your life? Now you made the decision. Yeah. Like, what is the system? Yeah.
Steve:And then the last part is, like, mental overwhelm. Right? Like, there's so much stuff in your head. Yeah. Like, you're so used to reacting on default and not consciously thinking is, like, how can we build that deliberately selfish mindset and see things from a slightly different perspective, right?
Steve:And the mindset piece is really being conscious and aware of the, like, actions that you take. And the only way to do that, sort of like we talked earlier about unteachable lessons, is to do it. Right? It's to do the reps of that. And those that's the sort of triangle.
Steve:Those are the three sort of areas.
Tim:Yeah. Amazing. And do you find that typically one of those three or any of those three are easier or harder for men specifically to deal with?
Steve:Yeah, I think, yeah, I suppose with men specifically, I think like different people come in with different problems, right? So like some people might be stuck in like this idea of self reflection straight jacket, calling it, right? Where it's like, I'm aware of the problems, but I'm just not doing anything about it. Yeah. Right?
Steve:Or some people might struggle with the consistency, etcetera. I think like the main thing that gets people out is movement, is momentum.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:Right? So like, you know, just doing something. Yeah. And that really helps. So like the resilience part, seeing things in a slightly different perspective, the building that deliberate mindset is a longer term game to begin with, totally, because you've gotta do it in real life.
Steve:Right? Like, you've gotta do it in the situations that arise in your normal life. But I think, like, what really helps to begin with is just picking some things, taking some actions, and then you create the momentum
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:And create the evidence, right, in your mind Exactly. That the process Right? Like, it's like if you don't, like, if you don't start, then you don't have the evidence. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:But once you start moving, then the evidence builds. You create more confidence Yeah. In the system and your abilities to take action. And then that compounds over time.
Tim:Yeah. And I suppose what that also does is it gives a little bit of opposite energy to the flywheel of autopilot, right? Where you'd probably, if you're in work, if all your energy is the career wise is thinking about the next promotion cycle, the next performance review, the next big project you've got to deliver. That's the feedback loop you've got right now.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And like I talked to people with, you know, you've been training this muscle in the gym for twenty years.
Steve:Now we're completely flipping it. Yeah. And training another muscle. What's gonna win for the next little bit? That muscle, right?
Steve:So you're gonna have to consciously deliberately decide to actually think in this way and take this action regardless of what your mind thinks.
Tim:Yeah, and we were talking earlier as well about the sort of macro changes and micro changes that we sort of need to see. And I think certainly when I speak to people, there is a bit of a cognitive dissonance of the big change that you can create in your life over a period of time being a result of micro changes, micro experiments, right? Know you do some initial blocks of six weeks with men like stack a load of six weeks, you've created a massive amount of a change in your life, but it sometimes doesn't feel like it's enough or is gonna trigger it, but that is part of the messy path of change that takes years.
Steve:Yeah, totally. And I think you underestimate the ripple effect of the small action, which goes into all areas of your life and actually starts changing it straight away, right? So, like, even a lot of the guys that I talk about, when they put their card details in and hit the thing before I've actually had a session with them Yeah. They text me and tell me all the things that they've done Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Or see things in a slightly different way. Right? Like, I literally was speaking to their client yesterday who hadn't even decided whether to work with me or not.
Steve:And I was like, how's your week been? He's like, oh yeah, no, I decided, you know, yesterday I had the kids at home and I put my work phone away and decided not to try and do both at the same time and kept a little Amazing. Thing for work and nighttime. So it's like almost the decision making helps. Yeah.
Steve:And and the actions that we get like, I get dads to do, you know, they they choose the actions. Right? But we usually pick a very simple one, but then also that helps you almost carry that out in other aspects of your life. So like, as an example, you know, one of the guys was like, right, I'm not looking after myself enough. I'm really bad at, like, protecting my own time for things that I find important and having difficult conversations.
Steve:So, like, the solution to that was, right, a couple of times a week, walk your dog at, like, 03:00. Right? So, like, block the time out in your diary for half an hour. Yeah. Right?
Steve:Only take half an hour lunch. You work for someone else. That's fine. Like, unless something really drastic comes in, that's your time.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:You're doing the exercise. Yeah. Right? So you're you're doing all these lessons at one time. You're building all this muscle at one time.
Steve:So then the next time, like, in a completely different unrelated scenario when he has to pick the kids up from school Yeah. And someone sticks a meeting in at 04:00 that isn't, you know, wholly necessary to be in there at that specific time. He's already done the reps on something easy Yeah. Which is I'm gonna walk my dog at 03:00 Yeah. To have that conversation.
Steve:Right? So it's like that then carries over. So you go like, oh, that isolated action that you take with a compound. Compound's a lot quicker than you actually think once you actually start taking the action and creating the momentum.
Tim:Yeah. And to your point that you said earlier, that's new reps of a new thing that just hasn't been developed before, hasn't been tried before. And it's funny, again, we were talking before, for context, we've been in the same coworking space for the last couple of hours, which why I keep referencing our previous conversations, but I went for some drinks with some dads from the kid's school the other week. It's funny how this sort of default autopilot mode is a sort of costume that we wear, right, of like, because I said, oh, I've got this guy coming on the podcast. He works with dads to help them find more time in their week so they can be a bit more deliberate, da da da, you know, and there's the laughs around the table of, isn't that every dad?
Tim:You know, because everyone kinda knows unless they've been very intentional, that they're all in the same thing. Right? And you will know better than me, but my assumption is some people might have it spiking in slightly different places depending on their career or home life, whatever it may be. But like everyone kinda knows they're kind of on autopilot, you know, with some part of their life not being quite where they want it to be.
Steve:Yeah, I think I heard this thing a few months ago that really resonated to me, it was Jimmy Carr actually on Modern Wisdom, but he talked about this idea of trajectory being more important than position.
Tim:So
Steve:it's not actually where you are is the thing that makes you feel good, it's where you're moving towards, right? So like, as you said, that idea that some area of your life can get the focus and attention.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:But then you go, like, what actions can I take to maintain it? Right? Like, maintenance mode. Yeah. So, like, I talk about this idea of seasons, I sort of alluded to earlier, but, like, I don't think that work life balance is a thing.
Steve:Right? Like, it's really difficult to do that. So this idea of balance I have in my mind anyway, you know, like, you have got the scales and you're trying to balance everything and you're making the assumption that you're building on steady ground
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:When, you know, with young kids, you're building on a fucking earthquake. Right? Yeah. You know, it's like everything changes all of the time. Yeah.
Steve:You know, we talked again before, like, phases Yeah. Of of kids, phases of work, phases of businesses, phases of relationships. So when you think you've got it nailed, the whole thing flips. Yeah. So it's pointless.
Steve:Yeah. You might as well not try and do it like that. But this idea of seasons is, looking at the key areas of our life. Right? So like our work, our our kids, our relationships, our health slash self.
Steve:Right? And yes, for some periods of time, some of those need to go in maintenance mode because we don't have the time and energy to hit everything at one time. So I think the autopilot, right, like we sort of talked about before, the default mode for a lot of dads is either they try and hit everything at one time and burn out, because you can't do it. Yeah. Or they go, right.
Steve:I'm focusing on the knees couple of areas, but the other ones slip badly. So then they're like, oh, shit. Like, I have a terrible relationship with my wife, and you end up getting divorced. Yeah. And it's way too late to actually do anything about it.
Steve:Whereas if you make a deliberate decision, a conscious decision to go for this season in my life, you know, work and family is gonna get a bit more effort, energy, time than self and relationships. Right? So like an example of that would be that exact thing at the start of the year for me when you have a new baby. My wife like works herself. So like I was the breadwinner for the last few months.
Steve:So like work and family, me showing up for Yeah. Being the you know, you had to be the sole parent for the toddler for a little period plus also trying to help with the baby. Like, that meant that, you know, my 09:30 CrossFit classes on a Tuesday and Thursday probably weren't gonna happen.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:Absolutely. Or maybe it's see mates for a couple of beers once a month for those couple of periods of time. But you make the conscious deliberate decision to go, like, what is maintenance mode? Yes. So just because I can't do it all doesn't mean I shouldn't do any of it.
Steve:Yeah. Right? So like if I'm consciously not choosing to put loads of time into our relationship with my wife at this point that we've talked about because we've got a new baby, Funnily enough, we're not gonna have go out for day and night every Friday night. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve:But what can you do? Yeah. Right? Like, what is maintenance mode? Alright.
Steve:Well, actually, you know, can we every Friday or every Saturday, like one of us plan a meal that makes it like slightly different. Oh, won't watch that Netflix film, we'll watch a film. Yeah, yeah. You know, just something. So it's like, there is always some action you can take, but just and I think that is living deliberately, right?
Steve:It's not trying to get to like this perfect scenario. So what you were talking about there before, like, I'm fucking busy. Yeah. Like, I'm, you know, I'm pulled everywhere, you know, I'm doing this, I'm going home, picking up the kids, we're packing a bag to go to Northern Ireland tomorrow, I'm taking, you know, doing a couple of calls, plus I've gotta do the online shop, you know? Yeah.
Steve:It's like the reclaiming ten hours that I talk to people about in the six weeks isn't so you can sit in your arse on Netflix at 03:00 on a Tuesday. Yeah. Right? Like, you're an ambitious person, you wanna do the things, but it's making sure that you're spending that time on things that you actually want to do that is helping you get in the trajectory in your life that you actually want.
Tim:And as you said earlier, to the standards you set for yourself, right? Totally. Not someone else's standards of where you should be in your career or whatever it may be. Yeah, mean, I wish I'd known you along, you know, when one of my kids were born because my unhealthy, like personal examiners, I was the heavy, I put on like fifteen, twenty kilos when my kids were born because I just had no idea how to maintain. It was like, oh, shit.
Tim:I still need to, like, work hard and now I've gotta be a dad and stuff as well. Well, I'm just gonna drink, eat, and, like, not exercise. And I had no concept of, like, balance or maintaining that. And then well, you know, there are Facebook photos that will show that I clearly got that balance wrong.
Steve:Yeah. But and then what were the consequences of that? Right?
Tim:I had to buy new shirts.
Steve:Yeah. To buy new shirts, but then also, like, I think that looking after yourself type of of of scenario then doesn't help you with everything else in your life. But yeah, I think like defining that maintenance mode. So I think, you know, the expectation standards that you just talked about, like that is a super important thing that people don't generally do.
Tim:Yeah, yeah. A 100%. I wanna touch a little bit on work and careers because I think, you know, I would guess that for a lot of dads, work and one, that's where they spend the majority of their time during the week and two, it's probably on their mind as the thing they can't give up most. And I know you were at this Working Dad Summit the other week as well, which looked like a really good initiative. Tell us a bit about that, what the causes are of that and how that weaves into all of this too.
Steve:Yeah. So I suppose I encounter dads that either work for themselves or have employers, right? So when they work for themselves, you do have a bit more flexibility around it, right? Like if you build a business around the life that you want to have, totally. But there's also like a big subsection that I work for that work for employers.
Steve:Right? And they, you know, have that forty hours or they have that thirty hours that they work depending on, you know, how many days. That is constrained. That is constrained. But, again, like, the whole point of the the work at dad's summit and the work that Elliot at Parent and I Loud is doing is, like, what micro changes or actions or conversations can you have?
Steve:What can you do on a grind level to parent I lied, right? So be lied about wanting to be a present dad. Be lied about, oh, yeah. Wanna pick up the kids from school or I wanna make sure that I'm back for bedtime a couple of days a week. And bringing those conversations to employers.
Steve:Yeah. So then they change their policies. Right? Yeah. And I think, like, some of the, you know, micro macro thing that we were talking about before is, the world is changing, definitely.
Steve:People are recognizing that, you know, dads want to actually be more present. Right? Like, don't want to just be this breadwinner. Yeah. They want to be the caregiver, but they also do want to, you know, have the ambition and have the job or have the business.
Steve:So there is a macro change, but the macro change a lot of the time happens from micro actions. Yeah. So the lighter the individuals can be within a workplace culture, then the more likely that culture is to change more quickly. And the Working Dad Summit was a real sort of illustration of dads that have done that Yeah. Right?
Steve:As well. And also, you know, practical ways that you can have those conversations with your employer.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. No. It looked amazing. And for people who aren't familiar, Elliot is Elliot Ray, who runs Parenting Out Loud.
Tim:They've done, like, out of home campaigns to get posters up for for dads to be more visible and vocal about, you know, the balance they wanna have at home and work. And, yeah, again, to your point earlier, maybe it's not a balance, maybe it's a blend
Steve:that we're looking for. Yeah,
Tim:Okay, so thinking about then practical change, growth, dads listening to this who are like, yes, yes, yes, but what? Like what are some small, apart from working with you, what are some like small deliberate actions that dads who feel stuck or close to burnout could start to take for themselves?
Steve:Yeah, I think it like, I know I'm harking back on it, but it's this idea of standards, right? This idea of expectations for yourself. I think if we allow our minds to unconsciously decide what our standards are, then we'll never live up to them. Yeah. Right?
Steve:So, like, it'll never be enough. So one of the things that people come to me with all the time is, like, I feel like I'm not doing enough. So, like, as a dad or in work or I'm not getting through this stuff. But if even right down to, like, what are my standards as a dad. Yeah.
Steve:Right? So like, if you're not defining those, then it's really difficult to do. So from a practical perspective, right? Like, if if, you know, you're looking at at that as an example.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:If you feel like you're not being present enough or you'd like to feel like you're not doing enough or not getting the balance right.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:One of the things that I did and, you know, loads of my clients did as well is in that midweek slot. Mhmm. Right? Where you are at work, where you are busy, where it's full on, the kids are at school or the kids are at nursery, they come back, it's chaos. Defining your standards of what a present that is.
Steve:So for me, it's when the kids come through the nursery door or I go and pick them up at 05:00 or a quarter to five or whatever it might be until they go to bed, I turn my phone off and put it somewhere else. Yeah. Right? That's it. Yeah.
Steve:Right? So I'm playing with them. I'm present with them. I have a conversation with them. I'll make them their snack.
Steve:I'll put them to bed. I'll be in the bath. And I don't have the temptation to jump into work mode because I don't have my phone on me.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:Right? So, like, for me then, in those five days a week, those two hours, if I go to bed at night going, like, have I done the thing that I said I'm gonna do? Then if my mind goes, oh, yeah, you could have done more. Yeah, I could have, but I decided not to. Yeah.
Steve:Right? So it's defining those expectation standards for yourself and then taking the action. Yeah. Right? And taking the action.
Steve:So whatever that might be, and that's just one example, I suppose.
Tim:And that's an example of a micro action that you can take that says, okay, I'm meeting my standards of, you know, that I've set for myself this week of, you know, parenting. And presumably then you could have some micro actions for health, some micro actions for your relationship, whatever area of your life you choose to focus on.
Steve:Yeah, exactly that, but like build that up then, right? Yeah. So again, it's like, is the burning thing in your mind? What is the thing that's keeping you up at night? Yeah.
Steve:Picking a standard for yourself and finding a system to take an action.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:Right? So like, you know, or what is the like, the thing that I talk about that all the time is like, let's not judge ourselves in the items that we want. Right? Like, we judge ourselves in the actions that we take. Yes.
Steve:Right? So, like, your my hypothesis, my experiment for me for doing that, you know, activity with my phone was, I wanna feel like I'm there with him. I wanna feel like I'm a good dad. I wanna feel like I'm a present dad for this Yeah. Period of time.
Steve:So therefore, I run an experiment. I go, well, what is the thing that I think will help me get there? Yeah. Is spend quality time with them when they come back from nursery to when they go to bed. Yeah.
Steve:Okay. Right. Well, can I make that action as easy as possible for myself? Yeah. Well, how do I get distracted?
Steve:My phone. Yeah. Get rid of the phone. Yeah. Right?
Steve:So that's my system to try and do it. Yeah. So, again, like, I might get to the end of the week and not feel like I've done enough or done a present hour, but that's the experiment that I've run. So then the next week, I'll go, oh, well, maybe, you know, there's a couple of mornings that I'll drop them off. I can spend my time there.
Steve:Or if it doesn't work after a while, maybe, you know, Pearl can not go on a Friday afternoon, and I'll spend quality time with her there. Yeah. But it's like having the outcome that you want, creating some experiment, a hypothesis, taking the action, and then analyzing the data ultimately. Yeah.
Tim:And then to your point earlier, like action begets action, right? Like once you've nailed the phone thing, then you might, you know, you've got that little glimmer of success, that little new feedback loop and that makes you ask questions about what's the next thing, what's the next thing, what's the next thing?
Steve:Yeah, 100%. And I think that's the idea with goal setting as well or living the life that you wanna have, If you're stuck in default mode or you're stuck in autopilot mode and you're not taking lots of action, like, me to ask you the question, go, like, oh, where do you wanna be next year? You have no fucking idea. Right? Yeah.
Steve:Because or you might have a perception of the idea, but, like, in reality, if you continue to take the actions and compound, like, that's why we focus on, like, six weeks to begin with. Yeah. Right? Because at the end of the six weeks, your goals are different than they were at the start. Yeah.
Steve:Yeah. And if you continue in your six week blocks or you work with me for six months after that Yeah. The goals that you think that you could have achieved, sorry, become much loftier. So your floor goes way higher. So if you use going to the gym or sport as an example, Like, if you decide you wanna start running, right, and you really wanna run a marathon, that feels like a unachievable goal if you haven't started running before.
Steve:Yeah. Yeah. Right? To begin with, I wanna run a marathon in a year. But in your first six weeks, if it's right, I'm gonna walk day one.
Steve:Yeah. The next one, I'm gonna, right, jog one k, etcetera, etcetera. Right? We do our six weeks thing. Yeah.
Steve:If you continue to build that up and, you know, your six month goal is run a half marathon, when you get to the next one, it's a proportionate level above. Yeah yeah yeah. Right? Yeah. And it's that whole idea of like slowing ourselves down to go where we want to get to is incremental.
Steve:And actually although it feels almost potentially stupidly easy in the short term, that's actually gonna get us to where we wanna go in the long term. And actually, only way to get to that long term is to start now with the short term actions. You can either go, I'll never run a marathon, or you can get up a few hours and walk around the block today, right? And that's actually the path to get to where you wanna go.
Tim:It's strange how relatable that feels, probably to a lot of men in particular who have some experience of, I don't know, going to the gym or sport or running. It's amazing how much more relatable that feels as an example than, oh, I'll never have flexibility over my work schedule or, oh, I'll never be able to have a hobby again. Because I guess the cognitive hoops we have to get through to visualize that life are so much harder than like, oh, I'll never be able to bench press this or run that five ks time.
Steve:Yeah. And I think the difficulty with these sort of mental mental fitness or mental strength or this kind of deliberate action that you're taking versus going to the gym, like, use gym analogies all the time or exercise analogies all the time because that's exactly the same process, right? Sort of what we just talked about. But in the gym or if you're running, like, you'll see a physical difference. Yeah.
Steve:Right? After maybe not six weeks, but, six months or a year, you will see it or you'll be able to run further and you'll be able to do that. With, like, this type of work, you have to acknowledge the reps. Yeah. Right?
Steve:Like, there needs to be some kind of system for you to acknowledge the actions that you've taken Yeah. To grow the mental muscle. Right? And the mental muscle is the thing that grows your confidence and also, like, the acknowledgment that you're actually living
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:The deliberate life that you chose to be and you're on the trajectory, like I talked about before, maybe not exactly where you want to be right now, but you're taking action to get there.
Tim:Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, like systematizing the feedback loop almost, right? Particularly, I guess also for men who aren't very good at doing that, we're not used to doing that of, like, patting ourselves on the back or at least taking a moment to pause and reflect on progress.
Steve:Yeah. And if you don't, then it it doesn't grow. Right? Like, it's not like you're going to the gym. It just doesn't you don't acknowledge the fact, then then it's really hard to
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:To move forward. So, like, one of the systems that I use for my clients is I message them on a Friday. Yeah. Right? I go, like and I I used to I actually changed the question on this.
Steve:Right? It used to be, like, acknowledge the wins. Yes. But it's not wins. Right?
Steve:It's not outcomes. It's actions. It's the thing that you've done. Yeah. Right?
Steve:Acknowledge the actions that you've taken this week. What have you actually done? Yeah. That's the thing that keeps you on that, like, for momentum, that trajectory.
Tim:Yeah. Amazing. And and how do you balance ambition with presence for want of a better word? Because I guess sometimes it feels like you have to make a choice between ambition, whether it's in your own business, whether it's in your career with like you know, presence at home with your kids and with your partner, because it sometimes feels like the narrative at least is you can't have both.
Steve:And I think like men didn't want both before, or they didn't even think it was an option that it was both is probably more of a accurate way of describing it, right, even a generation ago to what we are now. And actually, you know, you asked earlier about what's the thing that men come with, That's it. Right? That's usually the fundamental thing. Right?
Steve:And I think that's something that
Tim:They they can't have both.
Steve:No. The the balance and ambition with presence.
Tim:Got you.
Steve:Yeah. Right? Like, as in being a good dad, plus also I know I care more about my kids than work. Mhmm. But would I give up my presence for the ambition?
Steve:Mhmm. Sorry. Would I sorry. Would I give up my ambition for the presence? That's the difficult sort of trade off.
Steve:I think that is the thing that a lot of men struggle with is that exact point, right? And yeah, I agree. It almost feels like you need to be one or the other, But I don't think you do. Right? And I think the way you do that is, I mean, I'm talking about the same thing quite a lot, but like defining your own version of what success is for you in your business, in your work, and in your life.
Steve:Right? So, you know, there's no world there's no world for me where I'm like, I don't spend enough time with my kids. Right? Like, our presence. I mean, arguably, I spend too much time with them.
Steve:Right? So that's why I have no problem with, like, this morning, for example Yeah. Like, not seeing them and going out at 07:00 and doing that. Right? Because I've defined these standards for for myself in my mind.
Steve:Mhmm. And, again, like, you know, whether it's work or your own business, like in one of my other businesses, I think before I had kids, was like, right, a successful business is one that brings this amount of money in, right? And that's it. Yeah. And, you know, I trialed a couple of things and I hired someone and we're in the office and I'm like, I might be bringing in some money, but, like, the flexibility that I thought I would have, don't have because I've got this employee and I hadn't really thought properly about what a successful business was.
Steve:Yeah. Right? Whereas with this business, I'm very cognizant of it. Yeah. So but there is that tension to go like, right, this is my version of what success is in this business.
Steve:I've defined it. This is my version of what being a present dad is, being a good dad in my mind is, and they need to work together and they need to grow at the same time. At some times that means that the business potentially will grow slower than what you ideally would want it to look like. So there is a tension in your mind that goes like, if I worked more, I would be able to do this, which may or may not be true. I don't know.
Steve:Right? Like, that's the thought that pops up. Or in your work, like, if I give more face time with my boss Mhmm. Then I'd be in that position to take advantage of those opportunities when they come up. Yeah.
Steve:Could be true, right? Yeah. But I think the reality is, like, if you define your standards for yourself, then you overwhelm that thought with evidence and you go like, yes, I understand mind why you're doing this, but I've chosen to do it this way. Right? And the truth is, to be honest, Tim, like the tension will not go away.
Steve:And that thought will continue to grow up. Sorry, that thought will continue to pop up. Yeah. So it's up to you. Right?
Steve:Yeah. Up to you to decide to go, right. Well, I've gotta live with that tension, knowing that I'm living the way I want to and knowing that in ten, fifteen, twenty years, when I look back, I'm gonna be really happy with the choices that I've made. Yeah. No, I Yeah,
Tim:all the more reason why those choices need to be deliberate and anchored to some deliberate standards and then you have a deliberate way to deal with that tension when it does occur. Because you're right, it will pop up.
Steve:Yeah, and I think like, you know, there's this idea as well, like I think in coaching and maybe in some aspects of therapy, it's not really explicit, but like this idea that you're able to, like, quieten your mind down and the thoughts won't pop up. The thoughts do pop up. Right? Like, the thoughts pop up for me all the time. Yeah.
Steve:Still. Same. Yes. Maybe less often, totally, because I've done a lot of work on it and I have conversations every day Yeah. About it with people.
Steve:Right? But they still pop up for me every day and I'm the one that's doing so much work, right? So like for everyone else, of course these thoughts are gonna pop up. Like we can't choose what we think but we can choose what we do with that thought, Right? So, like, we can choose what action we take off the back of
Tim:it. Mhmm.
Steve:I think, again, you know, there is no perfect world of balance of juggle or whatever. Like, we're not trying to get there. Yeah. And again, there's no perfect solution to that either. You're gonna live with the tension.
Steve:You're gonna live with these thoughts popping up. But what you can judge yourself on is the action, the things that you've actually done, right? The decisions you've made and the actions that you actually take.
Tim:Yeah, 100%. So as we draw this to a close then based on your own experiences and all the dads you've worked with, like what's one thing you wish every dad knew wherever they were in their journey?
Steve:That's a really great question. One thing they knew. This is actually a bit of a new idea that I thought about yesterday. So like almost imperfect solutions are better than no solution. Yeah.
Steve:Right? So, like, I suppose one of the themes that we've talked about today is, like, there is no perfect. There is no 10 out of 10. Yeah. Right?
Steve:But six or seven out of 10 is better than none out of 10.
Tim:For sure.
Steve:Right? So, like, you know, your conversation that you have with your friends going like, oh, you know, isn't that every dad?
Tim:Yeah. Or
Steve:this is just the time of life? Yeah. Totally. But, like, what one thing could you do to have a better relationship with your wife? What one thing could you do to make your work life better?
Steve:What one thing could you do to make you feel better about yourself? So, like, the solution might not be perfect, but actually taking some action and accepting the fact that you won't get the perfect is actually a really good solution, right? Yeah. It's actually the way to feel like you're progressing and and having that momentum. Yeah.
Steve:So that combination of just because a solution isn't perfect doesn't mean to say you shouldn't do anything.
Tim:Yeah, absolutely. Well, feels like a pretty strong message to draw this to a close with. Is there anything else that you haven't shared that you'd
Steve:want Daz listening to know and take away? I think as well, like, I'm in this, right? Like I'm fully in it, it's not easy. Right? But just this period of our lives isn't easy.
Steve:Yeah. And that's just the the reality of it. So you can either choose the the difficult path that you're on now and choose deliberately, or you can live with the thing in the back of your mind going like, wait. Should I get changed something? Right?
Steve:So, like, both options are difficult. Yes. Which one would you rather live with? Right? And I'm in it.
Steve:Like, I totally get it. But I feel, like, a lot more happy, fulfilled, content with my life even though the position that I'm in, you know, with my business, with lots of areas of my life isn't perfect.
Tim:Yeah.
Steve:But I've there's no in the world that at the end of this year, I'm gonna look back at the year and go, have I have I not taken the actions that I wanted to take? And I'm gonna be really proud of the actions that I've took. So this isn't, you know, me and you sitting here, like, on our lofty high horse Yeah. Preaching down. It's like we're in it.
Steve:Like, all everything that we talked about, everyone can do these actions, right? Everyone can think deliberately, everyone can pick one action today and do it.
Tim:Yes.
Steve:But it's up to you, right? Like it's your responsibility, it's your option to carry forward with that.
Tim:Yeah, Yeah. Amazing. I hear you. I think that's good advice. And if people are so inclined, where can they find your work, your coaching, your own podcast?
Steve:Yeah. So deliberate dad is the the general brand. So my website's deliberate.dad. You catch me on, like, Instagram, deliberatedad underscore. Someone has a bloody normal deliberate dad.
Steve:I'll get it eventually. Yeah. Yeah. But someone someone's got it there. And again, on YouTube Yeah.
Steve:Deliberate dad and on Spotify, Apple, the podcasts are are on there. So Yeah. Yeah. Contact me through any one of those. Like, I try to share some of this stuff that we've talked about today on a on a daily basis.
Steve:Yeah. And I've got, you know, lots of tools, framework, structures that you can take away for free and and do, right? Yeah. And create that evidence in your mind and create that momentum. So, that's where you can find me and please reach out.
Tim:Yeah, good stuff. Well, I think more dads should be doing it. Like I said, these drinks the other night, there's like, there's so many people feeling this and there's almost this fear, I think of whether it's a fear of self indulgence or a fear of the unknown to actually living an examined life and being very deliberate with it. But I think the fact that you're in it helps, right? It's relatable, it's approachable, and yeah, think, many men, if they set some standards for around this stuff would feel the difference.
Steve:Yeah, awesome. Thanks for having me,
Tim:mate. Good stuff, thanks for coming on. Cheers. So there you go, that was my conversation with Steve Cardwell, the deliberate dad. Look, I think many of the dads listening can resonate with at least some part of that.
Tim:And I hope even if you don't choose to work with Steve, that some of the actions and tips that he gave are things you can weave into your own life. And for me, what resonated the most with my own experiences and also with the men and dads that I speak to is actually probably just taking that first step to set some standards and think about the path you're on and whether that is the path you want to be on in a year's time, two years time, five years time. It sounds a bit grand, the examined life, but genuinely setting some standards for yourself and taking some micro actions towards those things can make a big difference when you stack them up over time. So as always, if you enjoyed the episode, please like, subscribe and share it with someone who might need to hear it. That's how this movement will grow, man by man, story by story.
Tim:Work hard, be kind, and I will see you at the next one.